Woman's Hour - Debbie McGee and Dr Naomi Paxton, author Angie Thomas, Nurse Sarah Link who lived in a caravan for 9 months to protect her mum

Episode Date: January 13, 2021

To mark the centenary of the infamous ‘sawing-a-woman-in-half’ illusion, Emma Barnett talks to Debbie McGee and Dr Naomi Paxton, also to author Angie Thomas about her new book "Concrete Rose" the prequel to her bestseller "The Hate U Give", Joan Bakewell talks about her legal challenge over the government's decision to delay the second dose of the Covid 19 Vaccine for elderly and we hear how the the nurse Sarah Link lived in a caravan for nine months outside her family home in Cradley Heath in the West Midlands to protect her mum from catching Covid.The programme includes a clip of Baroness Boothroyd courtesy of Sky News Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. As you will have heard in some of our news bulletins, and we did promise this on yesterday's programme, to keep you updated about the story of Lisa Montgomery, the only female inmate on federal death row in America. She has now been executed for the murder of a pregnant woman after a last-minute stay of execution was lifted by the US Supreme Court, making her the first female federal inmate to be executed by the US government for nearly 70 years, 67 to be precise. For more context as to why her death penalty was being hotly debated,

you can hear from a legal professor who advised her legal team who spoke to us on yesterday's programme. And that discussion, all available on Sounds. But on today's programme, we're going to hear from a nurse who ended up living in a caravan in her driveway with her husband for nine months in a bid to keep her mum safe, who was living with them. And this has prompted the question, and I want to put this to you today, what have you done to follow the rules? Away from breaking of the rules, which we have had to and will

continue to focus on, we want to shine a light on what lengths you've now gone to, to keep to these new restrictions, to keep those you love and those you don't even know safe. You may not have lived in a caravan, admittedly, for nine months, but you will have your own tales of sacrifice and innovation. I personally was casting my mind back thisly, for nine months. But you will have your own tales of sacrifice and innovation. I personally was casting my mind back this morning to that craze. Do you remember the cuddle curtain at the beginning of lockdown, that big plastic sheet some people were using to try and have a hug and embrace with those that they loved and, you know, mistouching?

Perhaps you fashioned one of those. Do tell us. You can text on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or make sure you get in touch with us on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. We'll be waiting to hear

some of you already been in touch. Also on today's programme, we'll hear from Debbie McGee, the ultimate magician's assistant about what it's really like to be sawn in half. That's on the 100th anniversary of that magic trick.

And the author, Angie Thomas, will join us from a politically stormy America to talk about her latest novel, Concrete Rose, which explores race, black manhood and masculinity. So do stay with us for that. Now, Dame Joan Bakewell, who's a former government staff for older people, is threatening legal action over the decision to delay people getting a second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. The government has taken the decision so that more people can

have some protection to have this delay, but it's left tens of thousands of older people in what Joan describes as limbo. On Tuesday, the government said nearly two and a half million people had received a first dose of either the Pfizer or Oxford vaccine, but only 393,925 people had received the corresponding second jab. You can see the gap. Joan herself has had both doses, but she's instructed solicitors to start action against the Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, to find out if the delay is lawful and safe.

The World Health Organisation has said there's little empirical data to back the UK's decision to delay the second Pfizer dose. However, England's chief medical officer, Professor Chris Whitty, has said delaying the second dose is safe and the best way of spreading protection to as many people as possible.

In a moment, we're going to talk to Adam Finn, Professor of Paediatrics and Specialist in the Impact of Vaccination on Respiratory Infections from the University of Bristol's Children's Hospital and Joan Bakewell in a moment. But first, listen to this. This is Baroness Boothroyd, the former Speaker of the House of Commons, who's also very angry about the government's decision. What the government is doing has been done in the face of what Pfizer say, who actually manufactured the vaccine. And I've got their words here. I'm not going to mumble them, I'm going to read them to you correctly. What Pfizer says is this, it says quote, there is no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained

after 21 days. That flies in the face of what is being said now. And Mark, I'll take it further with you. I've seen some U-turns in the last few weeks, but this is the daddy of them all. And you know, the people that they're hitting very hard on this are those that haven't got the strong voices anymore. They're not people marching down Whitehall with banners demanding things. They're staying at home. They're doing what the government tell them to do. And they're not people marching down whitehall with banners demanding things they're staying at home they're doing what the government tell them to do and they're being treated in this way and it simply won't do and i do not believe i simply do not believe that to spread it thinly is going to be helpful at all according to the information that i have here the official information adam

finn do you agree with the government's decision to extend the gap between the doses of the vaccine? I'm told you do. Why? Yes, absolutely. But always an intrepidation to be arguing with someone as articulate as Betty Boothroyd. Pfizer, of course, cannot claim to have evidence beyond three weeks because they simply don't have any. But what we do know is that vaccine protection doesn't disappear precipitously in the short term. And in fact, the gap between the two doses of this vaccine that was trialed was done so close together in order to get the study done fast.

It's actually much more normal to give vaccine doses more space to park because you get a much better response to the second dose if you do that. So in fact, the elderly people who receive this dose later will be better protected on into the coming year. But the main reason for doing this is that that second dose that is not being given to a person who would have otherwise received it is in fact going into the arm of another elderly person and protecting them, bringing their protection up from zero

up to around 90%. But Adam, it's not just elderly people receiving the vaccine at the moment, it's our frontline healthcare workers. And in the news today, an A&E nurse has tested positive for coronavirus after his second vaccination appointment was cancelled. Yes, that's absolutely to be expected because even with two doses, this vaccine is not entirely protective against infection. But it hardly inspires confidence if you're saying it's going to be OK to delay the second when we can see somebody who's much younger, 43,

now having caught COVID. But you have to accept that even with two doses, that is going to happen. We've given the vaccine to very large numbers of people. There will be people getting the infection who've been vaccinated. That's not a surprise at all. No vaccine is a guarantee against infection. But more importantly, that nurse is not seriously ill. And these vaccines, what they do really well, and what we know that they do really well is stop people getting sick.

We don't know that they prevent infection or onward transmission. And there is no information on that so far. We hope that that may be the case to an extent. But that people should be testing positive after one or even two doses of this vaccine is in no way a surprise. Adam, thank you for your time. Let's bring in Joan Bakewell. Joan, it seems you and Betty Boothroyd are taking it on here, two women together. Has she joined the legal fight yet? I don't know about that, but a great many people have.

There's been a very warm response from people who are very concerned about this. They do feel in limbo and they also feel that the contract that you make with your medical authorities when you go for treatment and you give your consent to treatment might be in breach here if you consented to have a vaccine in two parts. And I've got a document here saying that that's what I've had. And then government policy intervenes between you and the medicine to change your treatment. That is a very interesting legal situation and a dilemma for both medicine and the popular campaign. You wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't a shortage of vaccine. And supply is a very important discussion. Matt Hancock himself has been talking about

boosting of supplies, but saying he's confident the government are on track to reach 14 million by mid-February. But what you've just heard there from Adam Finn, not a politician, a professor of paediatrics, is that it's OK to have this delay. So doesn't that put what you're doing in complete doubt? Well, I mean, we need the data. I mean, when you go for medical treatment, you go to medical people with medical qualifications using vaccines that are developed by scientists. And I'm on the side of the science. And when the scientists say, well, we don't have evidence either way, I'm asking, can we please have the data? Because health depends on it.

And it's perfectly, the government is entitled to change policy. But when it comes to medicine and your legal obligations, it's legitimate to challenge that. But we invited the government on to try and challenge that. No one was available. In the statement, I'll read out in full at the end of our discussion, but it's made very clear that this is exactly what you've just said. It's being followed. They're following the science. They say they are in this position following a thorough review of the data supported by the UK's four chief medical officers and is following the guidance

of the Joint Committee of Vaccination and Immunisation, which recommended that the government prioritise first doses of vaccine. I'm sure all these people are honourable scientists doing their best, but the point is they are all part of the government policy development and they are committed to that and they're doing it very well. What I'm calling for is independent verification of data so that the science is seen to be, as it were, immune from policy. Science is the lead here. Yes, but what you're saying there

is you can't be sure that the people who are advising the government haven't, if you like, become tainted by the politics. And, you know, the chief medical officer of England, Chris Whitty, has defended this as well. He's also made the case that if we had an infinite amount of vaccine, we may have taken a different approach, but we don't. And that this will essentially double the number of people who could be vaccinated. Surely you can see that's not necessarily politics. That's also just dealing with the realities. Well, I quite agree that that is fine. I certainly wouldn't use a phrase like tainted about any of those extremely honourable scientists. But the point is, this is government policy that is making this decision to change the vaccination rate for people who've already embarked on a medical course of action.

And they are very confused. I mean, they are in touch and they are backing this campaign because they want to know how safe they are. Are they safe to go out after they've had one injection? Can they trust that to make them immune or not? So there's a lot of confusion about what the government's citing of all these medical authorities amounts to. The World Health Authority won't agree to it. Dr. Fauci in America won't agree to it either.

So there are lots of people who have doubts about the safety of this. Let me just bring in, if I can again, Adam Finn back into this. You heard what Joan Bakewell had to say there. Sorry, we've lost Adam. I'm sorry. I can't go back to him. But Joan, what you were saying there about the... Oh, you are still there. Adam, hello. What Joan was just saying there about the World Health Organization, about how America are doing this, all of that is true. And do you not have some sympathy for the idea, and we're getting some messages in on this, that people were expecting to be able to have the second vaccine, they've signed up with their doctors? Yeah, yeah, I absolutely do have sympathy. And I completely understand Joan's perspective,

and those of many other people. But I have to say that the opinions around the world are rapidly shifting on this. The World Health Organization, who I also advise independently, I would emphasize, have also acknowledged that this is an appropriate way to go. They've not quite extended the gap as far as we've suggested doing, but essentially in principle they have. And the incoming Biden team has also made a statement that they will be prioritising first doses. So there's a developing consensus that this is the right thing to do. Joan, what do you make of that? There's a developing consensus.

Is this not just blowing your legal case potentially out of the water? Well, no, I don't think it does because I want certain absolutes to be established. The policy in regard to how you treat a pandemic is quite separate. It's a government policy decision to extend, spread the risk. That's what they're doing. They're spreading the risk. And they're perfectly entitled to do that as long as they tell you upfront that that's what they're doing. But there is a body of people who had a jab in expectation of a second jab who are sort of being corralled into this policy legitimate policy in face of a pandemic and a shortage of a vaccine but they're

they they entered they're being corralled into this as it were against their wishes because of the the crisis that exists i'm not that's it's a crisis isn't it i mean joan some people say it's a crisis what why are you wasting government time with a legal case? What would you say to that? I don't think it... I'm prepared to take that on. Enough people are concerned about it. Had a response yet?

Matt Hancock written back to you? Anything come back to you, Joan? No, not yet. Not yet? Well, I hope you'll come back and tell us more as and when. Thank you very much for both of your time there, Dame Joan Bakewell and Adam Finn, professor of paediatrics and an expert in this area. Government statement in full. The Department of Health and Social Care provided this statement. Getting vaccines deployed as rapidly as possible to as many at risk, older and clinically vulnerable people, as well as frontline health and social care workers is our number one priority. The decision by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency, the MHRA, to change vaccine dosage

intervals followed a thorough review of the data and was in line with the recommendations of the UK's four chief medical officers. The government is closely following the guidance of the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which recommended we prioritise first doses of vaccine for as many people as possible initially. Now, we were talking about sacrifices, what you have done during these extraordinary times, what perhaps you've changed in your life to try and get through this. And actually, our next guest seems to have done something that a lot of you couldn't imagine doing, but others have got a bit of sympathy for, perhaps as well. The nurse, Sarah Link, and her husband, Gary,

who usually share a home with her mother, bought a caravan last March to allow them to temporarily isolate. They ended up living in the caravan on the drive for nine months. Moving back into her home, she says, was like winning the lottery, and she joins me now from Cradley Heath in the West Midlands. Good morning,lands. Good morning Sarah. Good morning. Tell us how it ended up being nine months. Basically we bought the caravan

in March and we thought we'd probably only be there for four weeks. Four weeks came and went, 12 weeks came and went and then basically we've been there for nine months and luckily we were able to move back in the house because mum had both of her Pfizer vaccines and I also had my one at work. Great so she's had both that's brilliant news. Yeah she's had both. I'm thrilled to hear that especially in light of what we've just been discussing and you're on the road to it but what was it like living in it for nine months? It was very very tough basically we had no room at all. It was really hot in the summer, it was cold in the winter, and also I'd got a lot of pressure at work, and also I missed mum so much in my home life. I don't think I would have ever got through without Gary, to be honest. He was amazing with me all the way through.

What do you do in your work? I'm an auxiliary nurse at the QE in Birmingham. And what does that mean just for us who don't do such important roles? Go on. Basically I do care for patients, do personal care for patients, feed patients, general care really on the ward. I do all the observations, blood pressures and stuff like that. Well it's a tough job in normal times and this hasn't been normal times. Very little space in the caravan and you also that. Well, a tough job in normal times and this hasn't been normal times. Very little space in the caravan

and you also got COVID yourself, is that right? Yeah, I did. I tested positive for COVID in November and also Gary did as well. I had it first and then five days later, Gary tested positive.

It was quite scary. I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm very happy to hear you're on the other side of that. And it's so sweet that you missed being in your home of course but you missed actually

being with your mum I miss mum so much now does now we were talking about this last night she used to come and I could see her because obviously the caravan door was facing

our front door and she used to come in the porch and wave goodnight to me and stuff and I couldn't or give her a kiss goodnight all my life

I've always given her a kiss goodnight and told her I loved her and I couldn't, oh girl, give her a kiss goodnight. And it, like, all my life, I've always given her a kiss goodnight and told her I loved her. And I couldn't do that. And it was just, it was just awful. I just, I missed her so much. Well,

she must have missed you also enormously. I should say, we've put a photo of you and your caravan online and it's really great what you did with it at Christmas. You put lights on it. You've got the NHS lit up

on the top of it. Actually, the NHS was put on top because at the beginning of the pandemic in March, I was really, really upset. Obviously, all my arm life had been turned upside down. I came back from work one night and Gary had actually lit all the caravan up.

And then the BBC came and did the NHS clap from the street on week five, which was absolutely amazing. It looks great. If people want to see it, we've put it out there. When did you actually move back in? We moved back in the 22nd of December. So just before Christmas? Yeah, so we could spend Christmas with mum.

What was it like, wandering around in your home? I felt like I was living in a mansion. Do you live in a mansion? No, I don't. I don't, no. Like at night when I went when the ceiling was like really high in the bedroom i couldn't work out where i was because obviously the caravan ceiling was really low and also where i slept in the bed in the caravan the wardrobe was right up against my legs so i had like i had room to move my legs and move around so it was amazing the

ultimate luxury just being back where you'd started and perhaps where you'd never even thought, you know, in terms of gratitude, you'd never felt like that for that place before because we always take things for granted. Yeah. I've got to ask this. What was the toilet and washing situation in the caravan? It was amazing because basically our next door neighbour's got outdoor facilities. So they lent us their key and we went round to our neighbour's facilities in the garden.

So in the winter, it was absolutely ridiculously cold. And obviously when we had COVID, we had to walk round there. The one night I walked round there, and honestly, I just don't know how I made it back. Because my cough was really bad. And I was so short of breath, it was just awful. Are you saying you're walking back with your towel around you kind of thing? No, no, I got dressed in there and stuff and then I came back. Okay.

I like to picture all the details. Tell me how has this year been and how are you feeling as we're talking about the vaccine this morning and, you know, how we're trying to turn a corner? I feel absolutely over the moon that mum's had both of her vaccines. Honestly, when we had the phone call from the GP

to tell her that she'd got the first one, it was amazing. And then when we had the phone call from the GP to tell her that she'd got the first one, it was amazing. And then when we had the phone call to tell her that she was having the second one, because obviously they were being cancelled, we were ecstatic. And obviously mum screamed on the phone. And the receptionist couldn't believe it.

And the doctor was like, we went for a jab. The doctor was laughing because they could hear mum screaming down the phone that she was so happy that she was having the second one done. What's your mum's name? Gwen Yates. Well, do send her our best. And I'm so happy to hear that she does have that now.

Have you had a hug? No, we haven't. We've still been very, very careful. Okay. Really careful, yeah, yeah. I suppose that's important to stress, isn't it, at this point? Absolutely. When I come back from work, I actually use the caravan still now at night.

I go in there, I get all my clothes off, I then go upstairs, have a shower, and I even use Dettol on my hair, and Dettol wipes and stuff out of my hair before I go to the shower. Dettol on your hair? Oh my goodness. The little hand wipes, I've put them out of my hair and then gone into the shower. I'm really, really careful. So the caravan's

become a little ante room outside for you, an extra space. Absolutely. Well, it's an ultimate act of love love and many people getting in touch about it. Sarah, thank you so much for telling us about it and also for all that you and your husband are doing. That's great. Thank you very much. Thank you, Sarah. I've just been asking you what you've been doing

and I did mention the cuddle curtain. I love this from Niamh, the idea of people getting a big plastic sheet to try and hug each other during these strange times. Hello, Woman's Hour. In a bid to keep hugging people and keep hugging possible for me, a clinically vulnerable mother, my children bought the family five festival rainmacks, the type you'd wear on a rainy day at Glastonbury. We each wear our own festival rainmack backwards. So our face is encased in the hood and hug and hug until we run out of breath. Niamh, genius. I've got a very, very clear image

of that. Thank you for that. Keep those messages coming in. Now, this weekend marks 100 years since the magician P.T. Selbert first performed the magic trick of sawing a woman in half. The illusion came at the time of the suffrage movement, shocking audiences, and it typically involved a woman lying in a box being cut into by a male magician. You'll be very familiar with it by audiences, and it typically involved a woman lying in a box being cut into by a male magician. You'll be very familiar with it by now, but it was groundbreaking when it came about. And in 1921, when Christabel Pankhurst advertised in a newspaper for remunerative non-political work, Selbert audaciously invited her to be his assistant, can you imagine, and to be sawn in two. Unsurprisingly, she

declined his offer. What does it feel like then? And how does it work? We don't usually get to ask magicians this. Debbie McGee is a performer, of course, dancer, magician's assistant, known for her work with her late partner and the magician Paul Daniels. And Naomi Paxton is also with us, a performer and academic of Suffrage Theatre at the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama. A warm welcome to you both. But Debbie McGee, I'll start with you. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. I couldn't quite believe it's been 100 years.

I haven't thought about when a trick's invented. I've got to start by asking you, what does it feel like to be sawn in half? Well, it's the noise, actually, depending on, you know, I've been sawn in half, sawn through, because the very first one that was 1921 was actually sawing through a woman. And that's where the saw goes right through you, and then the boxes are pulled apart, and you can actually see the assistant's body in the middle. And so sawing in half is when they saw right through it and then they can split both halves. So so that's the difference. But it's noisy. It's noisy. It's like being at the dentist.

But yeah, possibly worse. But you've really as the woman, you're doing such hard work, aren't you? Because you've got to the woman you're doing such hard work aren't you because you've got to contort your body sometimes you're not gonna you're not gonna you're not you weren't going to come on but you have what I say as a magician's assistant you've really got to be able to focus and concentrate because usually whatever you're doing um you know timing is everything yeah and that's why paul and i created such a good team because he always said i could instinctively feel things you know of when to go or whatever even if it was just walking on stage but of course it's far more important when you're in the middle of being sawn in half. But of course, you know, sawing through a woman was the first one.

And all of that came about because before the 1920s, of course, especially through Victorian and Edwardian times, you know, the clothes that women wore were huge. So there's no way you could have been put in a box and sawn in half easily. It would have had to have been a big box and actually in those days men were far more used as assistants than women you know they used both it wasn't ever the glamorous magician's assistant which is why when people say oh it's all about the magician and not the assistant. But actually, you know, going back a long way before, you know, over 100 years ago, men were put in and not sawn in half in those days, but other illusions. It was quite gory, wasn't it, as well in the early days. They liked to make much of it. Yeah. And, you know, of course, in the 20s, when the clothes became, you know, more silk and smaller is why they could chop you up either sawing, obviously, women in half.

But you could also be, you know, sawn into three pieces or five pieces or seven pieces or whatever. But, yeah, going back, they, you know, they liked the horror, you know, aspect of it and putting people in distress but if you think back to the you know the silent movies women were it was always the woman that was tied up to the railway track or running away screaming but um I also this is only a personal opinion is I also think that it kind of grew as the glamorous assistant, because if a woman is having something horrible done to her, you know, men want to, you know, animal instinct want to protect you and women watching that woman want to protect you. So I think it's, you know, it's much more impactive if you're sawing a woman in half than a man. I don't think you've got quite so much sympathy. Did you ever feel it was, no, that's a very interesting thing to think about,

but did you ever feel it was reductive to you in any way to be the glamorous assistant or be the person being needed to be saved or however you could term it? No, I always thought it was just another form of entertainment and, you know, that the assistant's role was to, if you, as a magician's assistant, if you're doing your job well, people should just think you're a glamorous girl standing there. You know, life is changing. And of course, there's loads of lady magicians now and I do some magic myself. But, you know, going back 20 years, you know, it was all about showgirls and showing women off. And you'd get more, a bigger audience because, you know, men do like seeing women looking glamorous. Did Paul ever talk to you when he was sawing you in half?

Did you ever have chats? I'm trying to imagine the conversations when these sorts of things are going on. Or perhaps it's too loud. No, we did. Never about anything to do with, you know, what we were having for dinner. I have to say we're much more professional than that. But one little story is there was a very famous singer called Frankie Vaughan. And Paul and I agreed to do an illusion that was like a soaring for a friend for his birthday party and Frankie Vaughan and his wife Stella were sitting very close to the front you know and it was like dinner table situation a cabaret we were in the

middle of the floor well because it was for a friend, we didn't bother rehearsing it. We hadn't done it for ages, but, you know, we knew we could do it. You know, Paul and I had worked together then for over 30 years. So it was kind of, you just felt it. But actually, of course, because we hadn't actually rehearsed it, there was one bit where Paul, all I'll say without giving too much away, Paul put a sword through at a time when he shouldn't have. And I was going, stop it, what on earth are you getting up to? And Frankie and Stella could hear us. Hang on, I can't believe I'm going to ask this, but where did Paul Daniels put his sword? That remains to be a secret.

Debbie, stay with me there. I've got to get in Naomi Paxton on this. We're going to talk about an element of this in terms of the history, Naomi, as I mentioned there, about Christabel Pankhurst and how she fitted into this. I'm not quite sure how anyone can follow what we've just heard there, but you are going to, because why on earth did the magician think that the daughter of the suffragette leader might be up for this? I think it's an amazing and very bold and entrepreneurial move of his. Christabel at that time was 41 and had found herself out of work. She'd stood for election twice unsuccessfully and founded a woman's party and that had folded.

And rather cheekily, she put this advertisement in The Times, as you said, saying that she was available for non-political, renumerative work and she got a number of offers. So film studios contacted her. But then Percy Selbeck contacted her and made a big show of this. This was in the press a lot that he'd offered her £5 a show or £20 a week. I think £5 a show is probably a better deal, to come and be sawn in half at Finsbury Park Empire. And it's I mean, she was, Christopher Pankhurst, before the First World War, had really been one of the most notorious suffragette leaders. Her and her mother ran the WSBU. She'd been a waxwork in Madame Tussauds but you know in her mid-20s um it was she was the kind of object of lots of playful slash ghoulish slash

um offensive things in popular entertainment in pantomimes in review um I can imagine that that would have thought you know what this will be a great thing let's revive let's revive the flagging career of this woman and let's uh finally um put give the anti-suffragists the chance to see her being cut in half. Well, that was it. I was going to say there would have been that element to it, the people who were against women getting the vote. That's why it was savvy as well, wasn't it? And I wonder what you make of the women in this position, in these performances. What do you make of that? Well, it's interesting it's like debbie says i mean i've been an assistant as well and been sore in half as well not on the same scale

who hasn't been on this conversation i mean except me and when you're when you're doing it when you're part of a double act you're presenting a show you are working together and you are doing quite a lot of the the work that needs to be done when you're doing large scale illusions. So the perception of it is very different, I think. But when one takes it, if you look at kind of early or late Victorian, Lee Edward, for example, and magic tricks on film, often using film, they were using women as assistants and they're often sort of things over their head and things disappearing and women disappearing and then reappearing as skeletons. And maybe on stage there were male assistants and child assistants, but certainly that kind of visual culture of women being disappeared

or repressed or stopped or restrained was coming in on a much wider scale in terms of film. And then as we get later into the 20th century, really it is the woman who becomes the one who is again and again chopped in half or displaced in different ways. And yes, men do put themselves in danger. There is escapology, there are bullet catches, there are all sorts of things. comes the one who is again and again chopped in half or displaced in different ways and yes men do put themselves in danger you know there's escapology there are bullet catches there are all sorts of things but but the woman doesn't seem to the audience to have any agency in that

situation and that that kind of feeds into a wider wider culture particularly in Christopher Pankhurst's case of a sort of um slowly I would read it as a slightly kind of voyeuristic punishing. So Christopher is a spinster. She has rumours about her sexuality. She's trained as a lawyer, but not allowed to practice. So there's a kind of a punishing of this perception of a surplus or a use of She didn't go for it. And just to clarify, what an interesting part of history that would have been. Naomi, thank you for bringing that to life for us. Debbie McGee, lovely to talk to you. We should say there was an incident, wasn't there, on the BBC when sawing and half actually once took place. And they had to leave it before they showed that the woman was all right, didn't they?

And there was huge calls to the switchboard. It was an Indian magician was doing that PC saw car. Yes, absolutely. It jammed the switchboard. And I've got one quick little story that relates to Naomi's because P.T. Selbit, who asked Mrs. Pankhurst to get the sawing in half, was very entrepreneurial. And so was Paul. And so many years later, Paul Daniels,

for a Royal Variety performance for the Queen Mum, wrote to Prince Charles to say, would you come and get an illusion, you know, for your mum? And he wrote back and said, you know, sorry, the security won't let me. And on the night, Princess Diana said to Paul, I'm so sorry that my husband couldn't help you with your trick. So there you go. I thought you were going to then tell me that one of them had been in the box and we'd never known all along. But that is a great insight. Debbie McGee, thank you so much for talking to us. All the best there. Now we're joined by Angie Thomas,

whose young adult novel, The Hate You Give, was published in 2017. It was her debut. In it, 16-year-old star is traumatised and ultimately radicalised by the police brutality which kills her friend and the gang and drug-related violence she sees around her in her neighbourhood, Garden Heights. The novel resonated then.

It became a bestseller. I'm sure many of you will have read it or you may have seen it, a film. But since the murder of George Floyd, it's become even more relevant and prescient. Concrete Rose, her third book, is a prequel. It tells the story of Starr's father, Maverick, and explores black manhood and boyhood and the strength of community. Angie Thomas joins me live from Jackson, Mississippi. Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me.

Could you start by explaining the title Concrete Rose? The title comes from Tupac. A lot of people recognize the connection to him with my first novel, The Hate U Give. And for this last book set in Garden Heights, I felt it was only appropriate to connect this title to him as well. It's based on a poem he wrote when he was 16 years old called The Rose That Grew From Concrete. It was an autobiographical poem, and it was about finding beauty in difficult circumstances by using the metaphor of seeing a rose growing through a crack in the side of the concrete. And I felt that that poem is so representative of so many young people, specifically young people of colour who live in difficult circumstances. And it felt very fitting as a descriptor of the characters that I try to write about, specifically Maverick Carter in this novel.

Let's talk about Maverick. Why did you want to know more about him? You know, what was fascinating to me was that when The Hate U Give came out, so many of my readers were so interested in him. And you don't usually see that with young adult novels in regards to the parents. You know, usually the parents don't even really exist on the page. But between the children telling me they loved Maverick, he was probably the coolest father they've ever seen in a book, to the mom saying, oh, my God, I wish I could marry Maverick.

It was very clear he had a fan base. Yeah, they wanted more Maverick in there. Yes. But he's young in this, isn't he? And he's a young dad. Tell us about that. Yeah, he's 17 years old and he just found out that he's the father of a three-month-old baby. And it's turned his life upside down, absolutely. But also this child is in his care now 1,000%. And he suddenly has to figure out how to be a responsible parent and how to care about someone beyond himself. It was important for me to show this young Black father specifically, because there's this idea that Black fathers don't exist. They aren't involved in their children's lives. And then there's this idea that black fathers don't exist. They aren't involved

in their children's lives. And then there's also this idea that young fathers aren't involved in their children's lives. And I really wanted to combat both stereotypes because this is not so much of a unicorn as people think. This is way more normal than people think. And for a character like Maverick, who's so well known for being a great father in The Hate U Give, I thought it would be interesting to show his journey to becoming that. Did you find it hard as a woman to explore manhood, Black manhood specifically as well, and try and bring that to life? You know, at first I was intimidated by it because, again, I've never been a 17-year-old boy. So, you know, I don't know what that's like. But I had a lot of conversations with 17-year-old boy, so I don't know what that's like. But I had a lot of

conversations with 17-year-old boys, with Black men, and I wanted to get this as close to right as possible. I really wanted to look at masculinity and the way that it, in a lot of ways, boxes our boys in, specifically Black boys, how they're made to feel as if, oh, they can't be vulnerable. Oh, they can't show weakness. Oh, they can't cry. They can't be tender. And I wanted to combat all of those things through this novel. But at first it was a little difficult, but I just had to find those things in which I identify with Maverick on. I can understand wanting protection while I've never been in a gang. I can understand wanting to help my family financially, although I've never sold drugs. These are human elements, regardless, that we all can identify with on one level or another.

No, it's wonderfully portrayed, if I may say. But I wanted to also talk about the fact that, you know, you've been quoted as saying the hate you give, that this book will be banned in some American schools like that has been. And actually, in a way, that's a good thing, perhaps. Tell us more about that. Oh, yeah, it's a badge and honor for me. Anytime you ban a book, here's the funny part. When you ban one, that just makes teenagers want to read it more. So you're going near things that perhaps aren't deemed right for young people to read. Absolutely, absolutely. In concrete Rose, we're talking about teen parenthood, which means you have to talk about teen pregnancy, which also means you have to talk about teen sex. People don't

want to have these conversations, but we need to have them. And why not have them in the safe space of a book? The book is not encouraging it. Trust me, Maverick goes through so many things as a teen parent that I think the teenagers will run away from the idea of becoming parents anytime soon. But I wanted to talk about this. I wanted to have this conversation. I wanted to be authentic and real with my readers about it because that's what they expect of me. And I owe them that as a writer. You're also doing this in the context of the last days of Trump's America. And also you will have seen the impact on your own

sort of popularity, if I could put it like that, after the killing of George Floyd, which must be a bittersweet situation for you because you want to get your messages out there, but that must feel hard. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's very bittersweet. I'm thankful that people trust my work enough to, and trust me as a writer enough to pick up my work and say, this is something I can learn from, or this is something I can get a better understanding from. But it pains me to know that there are so many people who learn about me because of the death of another Black person in America. The hate you give, the sales increase every time it happens, every time someone loses their life. And that's a hard pill to swallow.

I'm looking forward to the day that book is no longer relevant, which surprises people that I say that, but I absolutely look forward to the day that book isn't relevant. Because if it remains relevant, then we have failed children in this society. How are you feeling ahead of the inauguration of Joe Biden, especially with what we saw last week in the Capitol? I am on edge about it, I think, as many Americans are right now, because we hope that it goes off safely and happens safely. I'm relieved that we will have an adult in the White House. I feel like we've been dealing with a toddler for the past four years. But I also understand that his inauguration will not be a snap of magic that changes everything overnight. We have so much work to do in this country. But first of all, there needs to be accountability. But the incident

on the Capitol honestly didn't shock me so much. But what pained me was that the response was so different than it would have been if it were a Black Lives Matter rally. And it goes to show that privilege does exist specifically in America. That if it had been mainly Black protesters being there, the police wouldn't have been how they were? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There were pictures and live video on CNN during the riots showing police officers gingerly helping people down the steps from the Capitol. Whereas when we were protesting for Black Lives, police officers were pushing people just who got in their way. It was totally, it was a totally different response. There were no tanks there. There were no armed police officers.

There were no army men and women standing around. It was a totally different response. And it goes to show what it's like, how different it is to be a white person in America versus a person of colour, a black person in America. You write it extremely well as speaking it. Thank you so much for your time. Concrete Rose, out now by Angie Thomas, and all the best to you. Messages in on what we've been talking about. First, the history of women being sawn in half by magicians. Anne said, I was sawn in half in 1950 by Richard Harbin at the Victoria Theatre just near the station. It was a very odd experience.

I had been called from the audience and I had a certificate, which I can't find. And Maddy, who's 23 in Sheffield, talking about how we've been making sacrifices. My gorgeous boyfriend, an ITU doctor, during the first lockdown when we weren't living together and couldn't see one another despite being in the same city. I used to cycle over when he was at work, drop parcels on his doorstep from dinner to a shirt I'd mended to him to getting up at 5am to bake a loaf of bread for him.

You're lovely. This is how the pandemic ends. Not with a bang, but with a shot. Or rather, billions of shots. I'm Tim Harford, the presenter of More or Less and 50 Things That Made the Modern Economy. And in a new podcast series from the BBC, we'll be covering the defining story of the crisis, the search for a vaccine.

We look at the cutting-edge biotechnology behind these vaccines and the underrated business of fridges and vials and porter cabins that will be essential in a huge public health campaign. And of course, there are the other questions. Who's going to pay for this? How will we persuade people to take the vaccine? And who gets to go to the front of the queue of several billion people? That's How to Vaccinate the World, available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.