Woman's Hour - Decisions about embryos, Female wildlife rangers, Amanda Blanc, Nude images and teens

Episode Date: June 23, 2022

The physical and emotional challenges of in vitro fertilisation, or IVF, never fade from your memory - whatever the outcome. But what happens when you have been lucky enough to have a child or children and you still have frozen embryos in storage you are sure you will not use. None of the choices you face are easy – to donate to another couple in need, or to science, to let them be discarded or continue to preserve them. We hear from Alison Murdoch, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at Newcastle University and two women who have come to different conclusions about what they will do.A new study of over 5000 teenagers in 46 schools has found that more than a third of teenage girls who sent nude images of themselves had been pressured into doing so. Researchers found that girls felt “shamed” when their nude images were leaked, while boys said that the leaking could lead them to gain social status. It also revealed that 34% of girls were first asked to send a nude when they were 13 or younger. Emma is joined by Soma Sara, the founder of Everyone's Invited - a safe place for survivors to share their stories anonymously - and Ruby Wootton, associate director from Revealing Reality, one of the authors of the study - which was done in collaboration with PHSE, that's the national body for personal, social, health and economic education.Being a ranger in the wild - protecting animals from poachers, leading conservation efforts and sometimes putting yourself in the line of fire - isn't often a job taken on by women. In fact, less than 11% of the global wildlife ranger workforce is female - something many in the sector want to change. Holly Budge is a British adventurer who’s founded World Female Ranger Week following a successful World Female Ranger Day last year. Purnima Devi Barman is a conservationist from the state of Assam in north-eastern India who set up her own 'Stork Army' to save one species of bird. They both join Emma on the programme. The Treasury's Women in Finance Charter has published its annual review looking at gender diversity within the financial sector in the UK for 2021. Amanda Blanc is CEO of Aviva, the UK’s leading insurer and leads the Women in Finance Charter and speaks to Emma about the review as well as her experiences of sexism as one of a handful of female FTSE 100 bosses.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. A lot of you are still getting in touch about our Kate Bush interview yesterday, a chance to hear from the singer-songwriter who rarely gives interviews but finds herself back at the top of the charts 37 years on from running up that hill being released. Thank you so much for all of the memories being shared and all of your responses.

I will come to those in the programme a little bit later, but it's just wonderful reading how you have connected to her and also how artists like her have helped you in your life perhaps feel a little bit more like you. I should say, of course, if you missed our exclusive conversation, you can catch back up via the Woman's Hour podcast on BBC Sounds. On today's programme, I will be joined by one of the few female CEOs of a FTSE 100 company, Amanda Blanc, CEO of Aviva,

the UK's largest general insurance company. She also leads the government's Women in Finance Charter and is going to share with us the state of play for women working in that field with their annual review just published. But she went viral herself recently after posting about sexist and derogatory comments she received at her annual general meeting

as the CEO from the company's own shareholders. Newspapers reported that one stood up and said to her, you're not the man for the job. Another praised her and other women on the board for their skills at, quote, basic housekeeping activities. And a third said, you should be wearing trousers. Once Amanda shared her story, she posted online to thank those who contacted her in support, writing, in all honesty, after 30 plus years in financial services, I'm pretty used to sexist and derogatory comments like those at the AGM, the annual general meeting yesterday. Sadly, she goes on to say, just like many other women in business, I've picked up

my fair share of misogynistic scars whilst travelling on my journey through various companies and boardrooms until arriving at Aviva. We all have our own stories. She ends this part of her statement saying, I would like to tell you that things have got better in recent years, but it's fair to say that it's actually increased. She's talking about sexism. The more senior role I have taken, the more overt the unacceptable behaviour. The surprising thing is that this type of stuff used to be said in private, perhaps from the safety of four walls inside an office. The fact that people are now making these comments in a public AGM is a new development for me personally. Well, Amanda Blanc will be joining me a bit later on in the programme.

She's a busy woman. She's making time a bit towards the end of the programme today. So stay with us for that. But what about you? When you hear what has been said to, of course, you know, somebody who's very few of them, but in that position of CEO to her face at an annual general meeting, how has it been where you work? You know, it doesn't have to be in finance. And perhaps you agree with her that it's getting worse, not better. That those sorts of unacceptable remarks, that sexism, anything said to you because you are a woman, it's changed over the years. How has it changed? Do get in touch. Has it got worse?

Or has it got better? Definitely want to hear about that as well. Text me here at Women's Island, 84844. And what's been your response in those sorts of scenarios in the workplace, at a meeting or otherwise? What have you found yourself saying? Sometimes you think of the very best things to say a little bit later. I often do that and then kick myself. But what about you? On social media, you can contribute at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. And I should say, if you choose to text us, many of you do, thank you for that. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Also on today's programme, what to do with frozen embryos created during IVF once you have finished trying for a baby, however you get to that place. Two women share their different responses to that quandary.

And female rangers, those who protect animals from poachers, lead conservation efforts and put themselves sometimes in the line of fire. I will be joined by one and a campaigner who would like more women to step up and consider that as a career. All to come on the programme. But first, a new study of over 5,000 teenagers in 46 schools has found that more than a third of teenage girls who sent nude images of themselves had been pressured into doing so. Researchers found that girls felt shamed when their nude images were leaked, while boys said that the leaking could lead to them gaining social status. It's also revealed that 34% of girls were first asked to send a nude when they were 13 or younger.

Well, to discuss this more, I'm joined by Ruby Wooten, Associate Director from Revealing Reality, one of the authors of the study, which was actually done in collaboration with PHSE. That's the National Body for Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education. And Somasara will be joining me shortly as well, the founder of Everyone's Invited, that place online which bills itself as a safe place for survivors to share their stories anonymously and rose to prominence last year regarding some of the issues around certain schools and this sort of behaviour. Let me first go to Ruby. Good morning. Morning.

60% of girls have sent a nude image with over a third feeling pressured to do so. How does this come about and how normalised should we think of this from this data? It's difficult to know how normalised it is. Not all girls and boys that we had in our survey say that they have shared nude images. So 20% of girls and 13% of boys say that they have shared a nude. But 60% of girls and 31% of boys say that they have been asked to send a nude. So that is much higher. And 54% of girls and 30% of boys say that they have been sent a nude by somebody else so it's not something that all children are either doing or admitting to doing themselves but it's certainly something that's taking place around them and that they are

pretty much all aware of. And we should say it's a nude of themselves and the requests for those nudes are from a mixture of people sometimes they don't know them and sometimes they do. Yeah, the data shows that young people are sharing nudes both with people that they do know and people that they don't. We also know from qualitative interviews with young people that this is pretty normal and that some young people even feel that it's safer to share a nude with someone that they don't know because they're from a different part of the country and it's much less likely to kind of go around their school. So there's certainly mixed experiences of whether they know or do not know know because they're from a different part of the country and it's much less likely to kind of go around their school so there's certainly mixed experiences of whether they know or do not know the person they're sharing with. And for some you've also found

which I think is fascinating and shows a change certainly from from when I was at school for some this is a way of forming relationships. Yeah so we spoke to young people in interviews and several of the girls for example talked about it as being quite a normal step between getting to know someone and maybe going out with them or having a sexual relationship with them so some girls even talked about sharing a nude being a way of making sure you felt confident that the boy you were speaking with fancied you and liked your body as a way of sort of negotiating that kind of vulnerable, unsure stage of a relationship. So it's certainly being talked about like a very normal step in relationships and dating. To send almost an image to check in advance.

Yeah. Yes. I mean, there's a range of places people are doing this. We do have a statement from Snapchat, one of the platforms, a Snapchat spokesman said, using Snapchat to send nudes or sexually explicit content is against our rules, no matter how old you are. If we become aware of any sexual content involving minors, we immediately remove it, whether it's identified through our detection technology or reported to us through our in-app reporting. How are people sending these images? So of young people who report that they have received a nude, 82% of them said that when people send nudes, they always or usually use Snapchat. So we know that Snapchat is being used

by a lot of young people to share nudes. Now, obviously, if they don't get reported by anyone, they won't appear to Snapchat as a report. So definitely from the perspective of young people, that is the platform that is primarily being used. Away from whether that's allowed or not, it seems not on Snapchat, despite the reality. Is this legal? What's the legal reality around this? So generating an image of a child is a crime. It's not something that is generally prosecuted or criminalised because that law is not in place to criminalise children. But the sharing of a nude image of an underage person is a crime.

Even if it's of yourself? Yes. Right. But not usually prosec prosecuted and the receipt of this how it then affects the person I mean Snapchat we should say I presume it's mainly the platform of choice because the content deletes. We suspect so that's definitely what young people report they talk about being part of lots and lots of chats so Snapchat is where a lot of young people are conducting most of their kind of digital social life um but also the fact that um that the images uh at least can be set to disappear within 24 hours or after the recipient has opened it um does seem to be a driver but

obviously young people i was gonna say often people do save it though as well don't they yes yeah yeah so young people know that that well they tell us some of the workarounds that are used to save an image from snapchat or to or to get a screenshot of it without the sender knowing um but uh they still see that as a kind of slightly safer environment to send one than than a space where the image doesn't disappear but young people certainly know that it's not a foolproof strategy. And then what's done with that image and then how it then lives on and can be shared with others, as I mentioned, can lead to a boost in social status for the men,

that you've spoken to, the young men, and a shaming and a feeling of the exact opposite for the young women. Of course, talking about the legality or who's policing this, teachers, parents also play a role. And of course, if schools find out, they can come down very hard on this and i know that you did it this piece of research in collaboration with phse the national body for personal social health and economic education somersara let me bring you in at this point good morning welcome back to the program good morning thank you so much for having me how does this set of insights from young people tally with what you have heard with those coming to you with stories of school?

It is very much in line with the submissions and the testimonies that we've received from young people around the issue of digital violence. It has been, you know, young people are viewing it as just a part of life. It's just normalised. It happens all the time. And it is incredibly prevalent and a real issue. Yes. And I suppose, though, is this the way now? Do you think there is a way back?

So I think it's really important to understand the kind of landscape that young people are growing up in, in terms of when we're building an approach to this issue in general. And I think the real world and the digital world are intrinsically linked. And young people, they're building their relationships, they're developing who they are, finding a personality, cultivating friendships all online. So for them, digital sex is real sex. And so that's really crucial to kind of, you know, understand when we're approaching this. And it is just the way the world is evolving. And yeah, it's fundamental to have that in mind. So I think a lot of some older generations have a kind of victim blaming attitude when they approach this and think that saying, oh, stop sending nudes is going to kind of solve this issue. But that is just not the reality. It is a form of intimacy between young people. And I think it really is about developing safety and conversations and literacy and education about what these forms of image based abuse are.

So when young people are experiencing something bad and when things that do go wrong, they actually are able to identify what has happened and report it and seek help. So is what you're saying that young people should be allowed to do this consensually? Well, I think it's not really a question of what is being allowed. Can I just clarify that actually? Sorry. The reason I said that is because I know that your organisation's been invited or was part of the Ofsted review into schools reviewing safeguarding on this. Because in that respect, you do have to think about what's allowed and what's not allowed. That's what I meant. Yes. So we weren't part of the review. We were independent, but we did have initial conversations with them. But we, I guess, I think the reason why I'm saying, thinking about it in terms of what is allowed might not be helpful just because this is happening, whether we allow

it or not. And I guess it is very difficult for staff and teachers and parents to even begin to try and police this because young people have independent lives online. So I think it's instead about reframing the approach and having open and honest communications about what is happening, these relationships and building that literacy. But what does that mean when it comes to the role of teachers, though? Do you think? I think for teachers, it is, again, very difficult for them to know what the right thing to do is. But I think for them, they really need to get educated.

They need to understand what image-based harassment and image-based abuse, what they actually mean, what they actually are. What does that mean just for our listeners? So image-based harassment is a term which is describing things like cyber flashing and unsolicited dick pics. And image based abuse is basically a term describing behaviours such as non-consensual sharing of intimate photos or filming or taking videos or images without consent or revenge pornography. So using blackmail and coercion in receiving and soliciting intimate images. So that's the line, you know, those are the lines that, you know, both young people and those trying to look after young people should be aware of.

Yes. So I suppose going back to what I originally asked, this is happening, as you say, want to live in the world that's going on, not an idealised world. And I suppose, do you accept, do we have to accept that this is a way some young people are going to form relationships? Yes, I think we do need to accept that this is a new form of intimacy. And we must be proactive rather than reactive in our approach to trying to remedy the fallout when things go wrong in this area. And what would you advise someone with so many stories that you have read and, you know, heard from different people to any teenagers listening to the programme now, and we do have younger listeners, especially to the podcast, they catch up later often,

they're in school, who are feeling perhaps pressure. So nothing's happened yet, you know, against their will, but they're feeling that that is the next stage in their relationship to share a nude or trying to form a relationship what would you say to them i would say to them that um you don't have to do anything that you don't feel comfortable with doing and um you know you need to be doing things at your own pace and um you know it is of course lovely and important to develop relationships and begin those um you know those steps it's a part of life but at the same time you have rights and you you don't have to do anything you don't want to do i think it's devastating to hear some of the stories that um i've seen of young people being coerced and manipulated and really pressured. I think,

you know, this is happening to girls as young as 12 and 13. And, you know, when you're that age, you are so impressionable. You don't really know what's right or wrong and what's normal. And this is often happening, you know, with a much older boys who have a lot of power, who have the clout and the popularity. And I think when you're that young, you know, with a much older boys who have a lot of power, who have the clout and the popularity. And I think when you're that young, you just want to be loved. You want to be liked. You want to, you know, discover what love can be. And this is this is happening. Well, those are words for people to pay heed to. And of course, if someone is in, you know, living with a teenager, looking after a teenager,

also something for them to think about. Somersara, thanks for coming on. Lovely to have you back on, the founder of Everyone's Invited and Ruby Wooten, Associate Director from Revealing Reality behind, one of the authors behind that study of, as I say, thousands, 5,000 teenagers

across 46 schools. Now the physical and emotional challenges of in vitro fertilisation or IVF as it's commonly known never fade from your memory whatever the outcome. But what happens when you have been lucky enough to have a child or several children through the process and you still have frozen embryos in storage you are certain you will not use. None of the choices you face are easy perhaps you're thinking about donating to science, donating to another couple, or letting them be discarded, or continuing to preserve them,

which some choose to do. To talk about this more, I'm joined by Alison Murdoch, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at Newcastle University, and Jane and Rachel, two women who've come to different conclusions on what the path is, path forward, I should say, for them. Jane, Rachel, welcome to the programme. I'll come to you shortly. Alison, let me start with you. Good morning. Morning. Difficult decisions for people. Just to say, why do a lot of people who go through this process have some left frozen in the first place? It's important when people are having fertility treatment to understand that

they want the best chance of success and the best chance comes if they have more embryos so some people will end up with more embryos available for use than can be transferred at the initial cycle so they're then all frozen. The options that are available then for a couple who have frozen embryos are very clearly defined in law. These embryos can be transferred for their use. They can be used by somebody else. They can be donated to research or they can be discarded. About 40% of couples who do actually have embryos frozen will conceive that cycle.

So for those couples, that is an option for them to have potential siblings. But that means that about 60% of those who don't conceive that cycle, these frozen embryos give them another chance of pregnancy. And as you say, the difficulty arises when couples who have embryos frozen don't want them to use them for their own treatment anymore. Only a very small minority actually donate their embryos to another couple. If the clinic's got an active research project program, then they can actually donate them to research, and many will agree to do that. But the patient, the only alternative to patients then is to discard their embryos. And this is a specific decision that some people do.

However, it's estimated that maybe 30% of couples effectively abandon their embryos, probably because they find it just too difficult to make that decision. What does that mean if you abandon them? You stop paying for the storage and you let the clinic decide? Usually it means that they just stop responding to the clinic's messages. We usually contact patients every year to get the continuing understanding of what they want to do with them. And if they don't respond, even if you send registered mail to them, they're effectively leaving the decision to you. So if they don't continue to pay for storage or the storage limit legally has been exceeded, the clinic then has no alternative but just to discard those embryos. So they don't go into medical research because there's not been consent?

They have to be actively donated to research. Right. And what does that mean to discard of them? It means the embryos are taken out of the storage facilities and usually they're put into a solution that stops them developing any further. And then they're discarded with the normal clinical procedures. Let's bring in Jane to this. Alison, thank you for that. Stay with us. Jane, what did you decide to do and what was your situation? Good morning.

Well, we had two frozen embryos after having had three IVF cycles, one thought cycle and one baby. And then I fully intended to use those two frozen embryos to add to my family. But every, the first time, so having had seven years or so of infertility, we didn't bother with contraception afterwards and um when i made the appointment to go and use the frozen embryos i then

found i was pregnant naturally which was a huge uh joy and surprise and you know I can't even express what that was like so um so you know I've still got two more if I wanted three which was always my dream um and after the second one went on the pill came off the pill to use the last two embryos found I was pregnant again. By which point when I had my third child, I was almost 41. And it was a really, really hard decision. We probably fell into that latter category that Alison talked about. I couldn't write to the clinic to say, discard my embryos couldn't do that I felt by not responding um having paid for additional storage I felt by not responding um it was kind of like a shared decision I wasn't taking full responsibility in a way I don't know it was it was it was

yeah it's really hard. Even now when I think about it and, you know, we're talking, my youngest is now 17, so we're talking a long time ago. And sorry, so the eventual place you came to was? To do nothing. Once the storage that we'd paid for had run out. To let it go, to leave it. To do nothing, yeah.

And I couldn't have donated them because they were conceived when I was 36 or 37, so that was against the clinic's rules. It was too old. And I felt I didn't feel I could... I can't remember what about donating to research. That may have been the same. The age might have been a factor there. I can't remember what about donating to research that may have been the same the age might have been a factor there I can't remember but for you leaving it as it were but not being able to write that note was the way that this particular decision was or was not made yes okay yes I mean I know that my inaction was also a decision, but I think actually just writing it down and making it official just felt too painful.

Yes. How interesting. Thank you for sharing that. Let me bring in, we're just going to hear someone who obviously did something quite different, but let me try and understand that just a little bit more, actually, with Alison. That is what you just described and it's it's interesting to hear the psychology behind that isn't it yes you have to remember that as I explained before most people have embryos frozen because they see them um as their future babies um they are they're not group of cells they are they've the intention of freezing them is to make children. And if they donate them to another couple, there's the concern that there might be children out there who are full siblings of their own children who they would have no contact with, no knowledge about,

but maybe a knock on the door when the child's 18. That's a really difficult thing to get your head around. But as I say, the alternative to discard them, to make that decision to discard them head around um but as i say the alternative to discard them to make that decision to discard them when they see them as potential babies it's really difficult for that for couples to make there's a message that's just come in i think using language abandoned for making a clear decision to discard embryos is unnecessary i chose to do this as i did not want my genetic child being potentially brought up by another family, especially as they would be my child's genetic, in quotation marks, twin.

Reads a message, an anonymous message there from someone listening with experience. Let's hear how this worked out for someone else. Rachel, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for joining us today. What was your situation and what did you decide to do? So I had IVF in 2017 and we were very lucky that after the egg collection we ended up with eight embryos. So all of ours were frozen at the time because I needed to have a little break before we had a transfer.

At the time, we hadn't really thought too much because eight is a good number, but you never know which way your treatment will go. You don't know if it will work. You don't know if you might need to go through the cycle multiple times or want to have more children so we went into it with an open mind and then our first embryo transfer worked and we had a little girl so um we then had seven left that were still frozen and then when my daughter had just turned one I had a surgery that meant I couldn't have any more children I had something called endometrial ablation. So it's like a permanent removal of the lining of your womb. So at the time when I was sort of offered this treatment, me and my partner had a discussion to say, are we sure we don't want to have any more children? You know, my health became more important. We had a child, we were parents in our head, you know, we were a family. So so we made that decision so after the surgery I spoke

with our clinic about our options and obviously we had sort of heard that you could donate to other couples or research and training so we didn't know um but then obviously when we were we contacted them to ask what the options were. Both of us, myself and my boyfriend, as soon as they sort of said, you can donate to other couples, it felt right for us. I don't know why. It was just an instant feeling of, yeah, that's what we want to do, 100%. There was no hesitation from either of us, which is really good. So that was what we decided to do.

And I think it was just because, you know, we've been through fertility. We've been through, you know, finding out we couldn't have children on our own naturally, then going through IVF. We know it's hard to be able to give someone the chance to have a family and have a baby that might not be able to. That was what was important to us that's incredible i mean i suppose that the concern that even just on that message that that came in is around unlike donating eggs or donating sperm by donating an embryo just in case people aren't aware of that you know that's that's the the you know the basis of life form to go if it takes and and that is you and in your case, your partner, your child potentially going to another couple, your genetic makeup like that. Did that come as part of your conversation? Because it sounds like you got to that place with ease in some way. Yeah, I mean, we knew that. We knew that genetically these embryos were, you know, they were our biological children or biological babies but I don't know why I can't explain it but it doesn't bother me in that way because

it's not my baby it's an embryo at that point yes it is something that I have made with my you know part of me and part of my partner but we were never going to use them because we weren't able to and I felt that we'd worked so hard to get them they were really really good quality but you know the clinic had already told us all eight of our embryos were really high grade high quality embryos and the fact that our first one took made me feel confident that that was the truth and we felt like we were just giving someone a really good chance and you know if you're getting to the point as a couple that you think you may have been through multiple failures a lot of you know a lot of heartbreak a

lot of a lot of setbacks and then you're faced with the scenario of another go, but with a donor. That in itself is difficult because as much as it's, you know, we know that's hard. They know it's not theirs. It works both ways. But it gives them an opportunity to become a family. Well, even if you're on your own, you know, and you need that sort of assistance, to have that donation means a lot. You know, the question that comes to mind, Alison, if I could just go back to Alison Murdoch, who's a professor of reproductive medicine. And thank you, Rachel, for sharing that. What are the rules around, you know, you mentioned the knock at the door when 18. What are the rules about informing that potential child?

Well, it's up to the parents of the child to decide what they tell the child about their conception. And legally, the people who donate the embryo, that's the man and the woman, because they donate separately as a sperm and an egg, they will sign the forms when they donate to say that they are not going to be the legal parents. And in accepting the treatment, accepting the donors, then the couple that have the embryo donated to them will be the legal parents of the child. And their names will go on the birth certificate. So... Can you request as someone who's donating the embryo to not be contacted?

The law in the UK now says that the donors have to agree that they can be contacted when the child is aged 18. So the child can contact the donors at that age. Okay, so that's the legal situation as it stands and it cuts across this. There's a question from Betsy who says, please can you ask how much embryo storage costs? It depends whether you're on the NHS

or in a private clinic. It will depend on the NHS whether the commissioning groups pay for it and how long they pay for it. Most do. In the private sector, is a sum that's determined by the clinic and it will vary is there a range um i'm sure there is but i don't have that information on the top of my head i'm afraid i mean a few hundred pounds per year is is certainly a starting point i don't know where it goes up to yeah it would easily be that to start off

because the other thing just to say um very briefly if we can, Alison, while you're with us, is there's now a cut off. The storage limit is to rise to 55 years in July. That's a jump from 10 in 10 years of 10 years, I should say. We have discussed that on the programme before, but that also adds another element to this. Well, just to say that that is actually, it is important. The rules have changed and clinics could, if they've got embryos stored, would expect within the next few weeks to hear from a clinic to re-sign consent forms. The important thing about this is it takes the choice away. It gives choice to the patient.

It gives them the choice to decide whether or not what to do with their embryos. At the moment, if it gets to the storage limit and it is not allowed to store more than 10 years, then that's it. The embryos have to be discarded. And it's not appropriate. The legislation that was drafted back in 1990 was based on the rules and the social views and the scientific information available at that time. Now it's more important that people make the reproductive choices according to their decisions and clinical need. Very, very quickly, one more. It's in the news today. A widower has won the right to use an embryo created during IVF to have a child with a surrogate. This individual's wife died aged 40 after her womb ruptured while she was 18 weeks pregnant with twin girls.

She'd undergone an IVF cycle since 2013. And he has now won the right. What do you make of that? Because there's a real live discussion today. I don't know that case. It's rather difficult for me to make comments on it. I think the only thing generically I would say about this is that the rules and the law related to what can be done in terms of reproductive choices is archaic and needs to be changed and needs to be brought up to date with modern understanding of family structures and brought more into line with family law legislation, it needs revision, it needs amending. And as long as it is, then cases like this will end up going into legal dispute. Alison Murdoch, Professor of Reproductive Medicine at Newcastle University.

Thank you. And huge thanks to Jane and Rachel for revisiting decisions in their life that, you know, are incredibly charged and incredibly difficult to talk about. We're very grateful indeed. A message just to say, and I think Rachel, you'll particularly be of interest to this. I am a recipient of donor eggs from an amazing anonymous donor. I now have two wonderful sons. We cannot be more grateful. And I'm in awe of anyone who donates. It changed our lives to keep those messages coming in. But talking about messages, you are still getting in touch.

Talking about my interview with the music icon Kate Bush yesterday on how it feels for her to be number one again after her song Running Up That Hill, first released in 1985, was featured in the Netflix show Stranger Things. Here's a little taster of our conversation. Well, it's just extraordinary. I mean, you know, it's such a great series. I thought that the track would get some attention,

but I just never imagined that it would be anything like this. It's so exciting, but it's quite shocking, really, isn't it? I mean, the whole world's gone mad. Well, I mean, you know, 37 years is the longest time, I believe, a song has taken to get to number one. And it's also in America. It's your first ever top ten hit in the US, which I didn't know.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, what's really wonderful, I think, is that this is a whole new audience who, you know, in a lot of cases, they'd never heard of me. And I love that. The thought of all these really young people hearing the song for the first time and discovering it is, well,

I think it's very special. Kate Bush there in a rare interview. A world exclusive, no less. And you can catch back up with our whole chat on BBC Sounds if you missed it live on the programme yesterday. Many messages come in. This one, for instance, I went with three friends all in our late 50s to a wonderful celebration of Kate called Shambush

at Brockwell Park in South London. I know it well. Over 100 women of all ages dressed in red trying to copy the famous Wuthering Heights moves. Best event ever. Kate, we love you, says Rowena with a kiss. Thank you for that. I have to say, I think we could do a whole programme

on the attempts to recreate various elements of Kate Bush's music and her videos. Another one here. Having binged the new Stranger Things in a day, I too am new to Kate Bush. I'm 20 and nothing makes me more excited than revolutionary women just being cool. And I'm glad to add another to my list.

And one I can relate to with my mum. I shall now be fully engrossing myself in all her music. And one more from Warwick who says, Dear Woman's Eye, I cried tears of joy when I heard Kate Bush would be talking on the radio. I was five when Wuthering Heights came out and I remember it vividly on Top of the Pops. I now live in New Zealand and my daughters love Kate Bush. They're busy telling their friends that they loved her music and art since they were little when their dad first played them her music. My girl, Gabriella, has gone on to become a

wonderful musician and poet and cites Kate Bush as her main influence. Lovely. Thank you so much for that. But you've also been getting in touch throughout the programme, and I will now come to these messages, about what's happened to you in the workplace, sexism, inappropriate comments, and whether you agree with my next guest that it's actually got worse, not better. about what's happened to you in the workplace, sexism, inappropriate comments, and whether you agree with my next guest that it's actually got worse, not better. Amanda Blanc is chief executive of Aviva, the UK's largest general insurance company. She also leads the Women in Finance Charter. That's coming out of the Treasury for the government and is one of only a handful of female chief executives of FTSE 100 companies.

Amanda, good morning. Good morning to you, Emma. How are you? Very well. I was very concerned about you a few weeks ago when I was reading what had happened to you at an AGM, an annual general meeting. I know we're going to talk about the Treasury Women in Finance Charter, the annual review, but we've had a lot of messages, as I'm sure you did, in response to you talking about that LinkedIn post in which you received all manner of, well, rather disgusting comments. Well, look, I mean, firstly, thank you for your concern and thanks for everybody else's concerns. I mean, I was it was quite amazing, actually, because we did the AGM.

And, you know, as I've said now a number of times, you prepare for every sort of question at the AGM and you just sort of don't think that anything like that's going to happen. And immediately the AGM finished. I got on a plane to Canada and it was only when I landed at Toronto Airport and my phone just started pinging. And I thought, you know, maybe it's I can't get a reception or whatever. And then I could see the responses coming in. And I really felt at that point that I needed to say something. And I mean, obviously, you know, my LinkedIn post has been read by, I think, something like 1.7 million people and thousands of comments and everything else. And I think it is important to call it out. I think as a senior woman, when something like that happens, it's almost your duty to call it out. And so, yeah, I did.

How did you, I mean, newspaper reports said, you know, one shareholder said, you're not the man for the job. How did you reply to that? Well, I didn't. I didn't reply. You know, there were three or four comments. Our chairman actually did reply on the day to say that he felt that the comments were unacceptable. And, you know, I thought that that was good. But I think at the time, you're just in the heat of the moment. You don't actually realise there's so many other things going on at an AGM. You don't realise.

It's only when you sit back and reflect and you think, actually, do you know what? I mean, that's just not acceptable. And, you know, I think I've had things like that before. You know, you get other comments, usually in private, usually quite quietly, but never in a public forum like that. And look, I've got to say that there have been like hundreds of men that have supported me in my career. And ninety nine point nine percent of men are absolutely hugely supportive of women. But, you know, you do get that situation where it is quite stark, I guess, in terms of some of the comments. But as you also say, you know, saying it in public like that is a whole other level.

Yeah, I know. What do you think? I mean, I know it's an AGM, but what was going on with that individual? I mean, do they genuinely have an issue with how you're running the company? Or is it just a chance like some people do on social media to have a pop at a woman? Yeah, well, I think there's a number of things going on. I mean, first of all, I would say, look, judge me by my results, OK? You know, I became the Aviva CEO two years ago.

There's been a significant improvement in the performance of the business. And so, you know, you stand up there, you're more than happy to be judged. And I'm always happy to be judged by my actual performance. by my for my gender you know I mean seriously you know that's just crazy um and it uh and I think Emma you know yourself if there's an article that I've been interviewed in the press and I've had a number of those I don't look below the line to the comments below the line I literally don't do that anymore. I used to do that to try and see what people were sort of interested in, to think about how they might, you know, how I might think about other interviews. But I've long stopped looking at it

because the first comments are always, you know, who does she think she is? What is she wearing? You know, why is she looking like that? So you just stop that, right? And I mean, even journalists will tell me that they don't look below the line. So, you know, I think we've got to accept that there are some people who just feel like that and it's sad for them. Yes. And I was also going to say, you know, you talked about your years of work and the scars of this and, you know, a lot of women also having their own stories, which I'll share a few with you shortly. But that sort of level where you say it's a bit different, actually, you know, that sort of public comment, did that get to you? It didn't actually. Maybe that's in a way wrong. I try to be really positive about life in general, and I'm optimistic about, you know,

what the progress that needs to be made. I think it got to me more after I realized the impact that it had on other people. I mean, I was literally contacted by CEOs, by individuals in firms in Australia, in New Zealand, in America. That was the bit where I just thought, this is obviously not just my issue here. Lots of other people have experienced it. And some of the stories I had privately on LinkedIn, I mean, I can't tell you here because they were private stories to me, but they made me really concerned.

And it was then I thought, actually, do you know what? As a woman through lots of my career, I've sort of said, well, you know, it's not for me to speak up. But actually it is, you know, with nine women FTSE CEOs, if I'm not going to speak up, who is? You know, I mean, so I think you just feel the responsibility more than the sadness, to be honest. And what can be done? I mean, you like numbers. You gave a statistic there. You said 99.9% of men are great. And, you know, you talked about support in your own career. I recognise it's not an exact statistic there. No, it's definitely not an exact statistic.

But there are enough, and it won't just be men. I know there'll also be women who've been difficult with women, but just putting them to one side for a moment, although that's a significant issue in some people's workplace, there are enough, and certainly from these stories and from your experiences and the stories you've heard privately, for there to be a problem. So what can be done as someone who wants change? Well, I think there are lots of very, very practical things that can be done in the workplace. You know, you set targets around gender diversity. You can look at the culture and call out bad behaviour immediately when it happens. You can make sure that when you're advertising for roles, they're as inclusive as possible. There's a blueprint which Aviva have written in conjunction with Bain, which highlights all of the sort of very practical things that can be done. Bain Consulting, sorry, just to say.

Bain Consulting, yes. So we've done some work on this. It's on the Aviva.com website. It's a blueprint which has got all the, you know, how do you recruit? How do you retain and promote? How do you culturally change your organisation? It gives recommendations from...

But how do you... We've heard a lot. I don't mean to cut across, certainly not a chief executive. But, you know, how do you actually change those people, some of whom you've now come face to face with, their views? It's one thing to have hiring practices, to have targets. They're all very, if you like, polite, clean, nice sounding things. But if someone thinks a woman should be wearing trousers and should be doing a better job, even when the figures have gone up,

what are you going to do about that? Well, you can't. I mean, look, honestly, are you going to change those three individuals? Probably not. But what you can do is if you see more representation, if you see more women like me, if you see more diverse individuals in roles, then it becomes more of the norm. And then I think, because this is not going to change overnight. Emma, I would love to tell you that, you know, there is a secret source that within, like, you know, six months, if we do these five things, these things can change. But look, what we've seen this morning from the Women in Finance Charter is that there's been no movement in the last year on female senior representatives. Why is that?'s... Why is that, do you think?

Is it the pandemic and some of the roles women were taking during that? I think it could be pandemic-related. I think it could be that it was... You know, progress has been made from 22% to 33%, and those were the easy things that were done, and now it's the hard work that needs to happen. I think there's a pipeline issue. There are not enough women coming through.

Women are dropping out of organisations too early. And we need to look at why that is the case. Do they not feel that they can work flexibly? Is it childcare? It's a complex situation. But, you know, but I do think that we've got to also, if you like, really grow up and say, this is not going to be solved by three or four very simple things. It's very, very complex. But I would say my challenge is, you know, if there were nine male CEOs in the FTSE 100, would this be higher on everybody's agenda than it is today? And I think that we've got to start reversing the language that we're using.

If there had only been two male prime ministers, would we say that, you know, actually, you know, something needs to be done? We need to start changing the language and see this as a really important business issue that needs to be fixed. Well, thank you for talking to us. As I say, many messages coming in. You know, Cathy in Norfolk says, I began working in financial services in 1985. I was told after I began my first job that all women who came for an interview were scored by the men in the office based on their physical appearance. Those who had the highest score got offered the job. At the time, this didn't seem strange.

I worked in financial services for 37 years and the male dominated environment was incredibly oppressive. And despite working harder than most of the men, I was overlooked for promotion many times. The result was I felt useless at my job and I was lucky to be employed and could not hope to be promoted. Having taken early retirement, I now realise the stress I lived with for all those years. I don't know what you'd say to that. Well, I mean, what can you say to that? I mean, it's really shocking. You know, I think that, you know, if I think about Aviva today, we have got, obviously, I'm a female CEO, we will have a female CFO starts in September, Charlotte Jones.

It's a chief financial officer. Sorry, we've got a chief risk officer who's also a lady. And I think that, you know, our Exco will be 43% women in September. That is what we've got to see more of that, more parity. And then, you know, then I think things will start to change. But that sort of behaviour, I would like to say that it's uncommon. But unfortunately, you know, people don't make these stories up. We've got another one, an anonymous one, just to show again. I am a female lawyer.

When I was a junior, I didn't detect much sexism. I've now risen through the ranks and I've noticed it more and more. Now a partner, sexism is rife in the higher echelons of the firm and is a real barrier to progressing at the senior level, perhaps because it is dominated by men. You also said it's got worse. Yes, you're trying to have action here and take action. Why do you think it may have got worse?

I think you notice it more as you get more senior. I think, you know, when you're in a junior position, actually in junior positions it's 50-50 men and women, so many of the junior positions that exist within organisations. As women start to fall out, you become more in the minority. And then I do think you notice it more. You do definitely notice it more. You're in more meetings where you're the only woman.

You're in more conferences where there are very few women. And therefore, I do think that, you know, that it is worse. And unfortunately, you pretend that it isn't the case. But, you know, as you get more senior, you do notice it a lot more. And I know you've also, I'm sure, looking across the board, looking at women from ethnic minorities and those who are disabled, for example, as part of the charter. Do we have any figures on that? So we don't have figures on that, but we are working on that. And so for Aviva, we've actually got 86% of our colleagues now

submitting their data on what we call their This Is Me data so that we can actually start to measure improvements because until that point, it's actually quite difficult to do it, obviously, without the numbers. And we're also now looking at the intersectionality data to try and get to a really good proportion of our workforce giving us that information as well. So I think we have to have the data on that.

It isn't captured at the moment, Emma, in anywhere near the same way as the gender data is. And just finally, you know you always think of your best lines afterwards. I do. I mean, I try and be good on my feet because I broadcast live. What would you have said if you could have had the chance, Amanda, to one of those individuals? Honestly, I don't. I haven't thought about that. I really haven't. Come on.

I'm sure there would have been a quick-witted line that many others would have thought at. But, you know, I just always I always just think about, you know, what would my mum and dad or my grandparents do in that situation and it's just you raise your head and just walk away don't you I think it's your action you just say I'm not going to listen to this nonsense You're a better woman than me but you can kill a cat with cream

I've also been taught that by my elders Thank you very much Amanda Hope to have you back on again soon Amanda Blanc, one of the nine female CEOs of a FTSE 100 company, the chief executive of Aviva, but also the lead on the Treasury's Women in Finance Charter, which showed that the level, the average number of women in senior management has remained flat in its new report, staying at 33% as it was in 2020. Now, talking again about rarity of women in a field, what about being a ranger in the wild, which means protecting animals from poachers, leading conservation efforts, and sometimes putting yourself in the line of fire. It's not a job often taken by women. In fact, only under 11% of the global wildlife ranger workforce is female. Holly

Budge is a British adventurer who wants to change this. She founded the World Female Ranger Week following a successful World Female Ranger Day last year. And I'll be talking to Purnima Barman, a conservationist from the state of Assam in North Eastern India very shortly, who's become a campaigner herself. And we'll talk about that if we can. But Holly, I believe I spoke to you this time last year. You're carrying on with your campaign. How are the numbers going? Have they stayed flat, a bit like our treasury numbers about women in business? Yeah. Hi, Emma. It's great to be back on the show and chatting to you. Yeah, we're really excited. As you said today, the first day of world female ranger week one day just wasn't enough to uh cover all the inspirational stories of the many female rangers we're chatting

to um around the world yeah well it's it's something that you want more women to think about doing um has the perception shifted in the last 12 months at all yeah i mean the the female ranger movement is definitely picking up great momentum because women around the world have proven to be successful as rangers, protecting wildlife and as educators, role models and beacons of hope. And I think this is only going to get bigger

and bigger with the women. Okay, well, let's talk to Purnima. Purnima, welcome to the programme. Hello, Purnima. Have we got, welcome to the programme. Hello, Purnima. Have we got you there? I think you're on mute. If you just click your little icon there. Hi, Purnima.

Hello. Hi, Emma. Yeah, I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I know you're a conservationist and also you're a campaigner for a particular bird

known as the ugly bird by some. Which bird are you campaigning for? Yeah, my bird's name is greater adjutant stork and locally called as hargila. Hargila is an Assamese word and it means har. It's a combination of har plus gila, means bone swallowers. So they are scavenging birds. And yeah, I think they are the most beautiful birds in the world. They have such a great scavenging role.

And they are so beautiful. And they are very huge, like about my size. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me here. Oh, well, no, it's lovely to have you. And I believe you dropped out of your studies to fight for this bird. Yeah. to have you and I believe you dropped out of your your studies to fight for this bird yeah actually my passion for this bird was only to do my PhD I didn't know anything beyond that I wanted to do my PhD and at that time I was a mother of twin girls they were two and a half years old and then

I was studying for my PhD also then one day I got a call from a villager and I rushed there and when I saw that a man he had cut down a huge nesting tree which was hosting nine nests and nine baby birds fell down and some birds died and some birds were alive and I got deeply pained and it was very i never saw such situation before and then when i i i wanted to speak to the person why he had done so then that person told that this bird is a bad omen or a disease carrier and he doesn't need to leave and uh yeah from that situation actually from that day my missions with this bird started with more than 10,000 families in villages in Assam. And that day I realized that what I'm going to do with my PhD, I am aspiring for my PhD, but the situation is different.

There is such a lack of awareness. So we have to change the mindset of people. We have to bring the birds into the culture. How can a bird, how can a part of nature can be called as bad woman or an ugly bird?

So that was my mission. That's your mission. And I know a lot of women have followed you, your Stork Army. Yeah, we formed Hargila Army. It was just all of a sudden happened when I was working with villagers

and I did lots of campaigns. It was a restless campaign and I realised that our women members, they didn't come to our meeting. I became very curious why they don't come. And when I was asking them, they thought that their duty was only confined to their household course,

like cooking. All the time they told that we have to cook for our children, for our husband. Then, Emma, I started inviting our women to cooking festivals and cooking competitions. And they started coming like anything. And then we formed, suddenly we formed Hargila Army. And now I'm very proud to mention that we have more than 10,000 women as Hargila Army.

Wow. Yeah. All are rural women, like housewives converted into conservationists. Every day we get information, calls from the villages, like from the women from the villages, they want to be Hargila army. So we are expanding and it's huge. Wow, 10,000 women from the villages coming together to fight for this bird to be conservationist. Puneema, well done. Congratulations. Thank you for telling us about the bird, telling us about your work. Let me just come back to Holly, if I can, who's put this World Female Ranger Week together. Holly, you know, do you feel, there may not be, their communities, easing local tension through the power of conversation.

Plus, they're investing their earned incomes back into their families. So I think the ripple effect of employing women is huge. It certainly sounds it. Thank you very much for coming back on. Good luck with it. Holly Budge, who's a British adventurer and founded World Female Ranger Week. Go and check that out if you're interested. It might be something that you or someone you're related to hasn't ever considered, but you might

now, especially after hearing from Purnima Barman there, a conservationist working in northeastern India. Huge thanks today for your many messages and contributions and thoughts. As always, very grateful. And I just love your company. So that's it from me.

We'll be back tomorrow at 10. Have a good one. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.