Woman's Hour - Decluttering: A Woman's Hour special

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Spring cleaning is in the air - so whether you’ve woken up with the urge to clear out the ‘drawer of doom’ this Bank Holiday, are feeling too overwhelmed or time poor (or both) to know where to start, or have just decided to ‘bless the mess’, join us as we take a deep dive into decluttering, our relationship to our stuff and the impact clutter can have on our lives. Presenter Nuala McGovern is joined by two of the UK’s leading professional organisers, Ingrid Jansen and Lesley Spellman from The Declutter Hub. They’ll be exploring why it’s our emotions that hold the key to banishing things that no longer serve a purpose in our lives, along with sharing their best advice for conquering clutter. TV presenter, writer and Homes Therapist Michelle Ogundehin takes a break from judging Interior Design Masters to talk to Nuala about the connection between our home and our wellbeing, her personal wardrobe strategy and her love of curated things that tell our story. The Good Housekeeping Decluttering Study has just been published and the magazine’s Homes and Household Advice Editor Katie Mortram tells us what it reveals about our attitudes to clutter and some of our biggest regrets. And we hear about the birth of ‘clutter’, from the Victorian obsession with doilies to the impact of the wartime Make Do and Mend message, with Professor Jane Hamlett, a historian of the home. Have you heard about The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning? We’ll be exploring the philosophy from Margareta Magnusson’s 2018 book, which encourages you to deal with your stuff before you die, so that someone else doesn't have to do it after you've left this earth. Psychotherapist and author Stelios Kiosses, from Channel 4 programme The Hoarder Next Door, also joins us to explore the psychology behind why we hang on to stuff and the difference between hoarding and being a compulsive hoarder. And with all the will in the world, no clear out will succeed without an ’exit plan’. From recycling to selling, we discuss the best ways to pass our things on. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths Editor: Deiniol Buxton

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. It is spring. Cleaning might be on your mind. So this hour, we have a deep dive into our stuff, our clutter, our relationship to it and the impact it can have on our lives. Now maybe you woke up this morning with the urge to clear out the drawer of doom on this bank holiday

or perhaps you're feeling too overwhelmed or time poor or both to know where to start or it could be that it's just not that important to you, those piles that are all around you, and you've decided instead to bless the mess. Well we do know that the hashtag de-clutter brings up 2.6 million posts on Instagram. So there are a lot of you thinking and talking about this issue. The magazine Good Housekeeping, they have just commissioned a study about our decluttering habits. We're going to get into those details this hour. We also have a range of guests for you, homes therapists. Michelle O'Gundahan will explore the relationship between our

homes and our well-being. Also, professional organizers who want to help you get started are here. We have a psychotherapist who understands why we do and why we don't want to clear out that drawer or that room, and we'll take some time to look at Swedish death cleaning, getting rid of stuff so someone else doesn't have to after you have left this earth. We're also going to hear from a historian of the home. Plus, what are you supposed to do with everything from your books to the bags of stuff that you are actually ready

to part with? We're not live today so don't text in. But some of you have been in touch already to share your thoughts and experiences when it comes to clutter. Here is one. The clutter in my house is actually starting to affect my mental health. I can't think or work anymore. So much so it woke me at 4am this morning and I felt a strong urge to tidy. I have given myself a week as I cannot take it anymore. Rosemary is different. She says I have started decluttering my home and I think I may be getting addicted to it. I look at my decluttered lounge and I want to go further. Maybe I'll end up with just my sofa in the middle of an empty

room. Bless. That is all coming up right here on Woman's Hour over the next hour. And let us get started with some brand new research about decluttering habits and attitudes. The Good Housekeeping Decluttering Survey has found that 95% say they declutter but almost half of those questioned struggle with deciding what to remove. We have Katie Motram to get us started. She is the magazine's Homes and Household Advice Editor in the studio with me now. Good morning. Morning. Okay I'll get to the 95% figure in a

moment but let me begin with regrets. I've had a few, so have your respondents. What were the main findings when it came to regrets of those things people felt they shouldn't have parted with? So a lot of the regrets focus around clothing, items that have sort of come back into trend later on, that they've regretted either donating or maybe giving to a friend or family member. There's also sentimental items, that's a massive regret as well, especially because of the emotion attached to things, unexpectedly useful items, books as well with the other thing that kept popping up.

Oh, we're going to get into books a little bit later as well, but immediately I think of, oh, I might need that someday, and some of those other lines that we tell ourselves before we declutter. I want to go back to that 95% figure that say they declutter. I was shocked by that. Does decluttering mean something different to different people, do you think, Katie? I think it does. Our findings sort of show that a lot of people only declutter when they

absolutely have to, whereas some do little and often to sort of keep it topped up. You also had a look at whether they're doing it alone or with somebody else. Yeah so quite a lot of our respondents do declutter alone, 66% in total, but then we have got partners helping out as well for those that remain and I think there was a small amount of children helped out with the decluttering too. When it comes to the children, actually only 3% involved their children. That's interesting, isn't it? Like how do you build that habit if they're not involved from the get-go?

Only 17% say their children declutter after themselves. But having said that, 95% think it's important for children to learn how to declutter. And I suppose this is a self-selected audience that responded, just to make that clear. It is readers of Good Housekeeping and also is about 1,200 people. So I'm curious how it lines up with the people who are listening as we get into stuff and clutter and decluttering. Thank you very much Katie. You can read more about the research on the Good Housekeeping website and Katie's going to stay with us throughout the hour about some of the tried and tested methods as well. But joining me also in the studio are two of the UK's leading

professional organizers. That's Ingrid Janssen and Lesley Spellman. Together as well. But joining me also in the studio are two of the UK's leading professional organisers, that's Ingrid Janssen and Lesley Spellman. Together they formed the D Clutter Hub, which has a community of more than 60,000 members and a weekly podcast with more than 300 episodes. So they have plenty to say on the topic. Lesley, Ingrid, you're both very welcome. Ingrid, 300 episodes, there's an awful lot to say on Clutter. We started podcast because we love talking about Clutter, but not knowing that we would do 300 episodes and are still recording every week, day in, day out, and we absolutely love it. And there's so much to talk about. We haven't, I don't think we've talked about

everything yet, Leslie, have we? No, you're not finished. Like decluttering, it's never over. But let me bring you in here, Leslie. One of the questions in the survey that we were just discussing was, would you hire a professional organiser? 57% said they wouldn't trust someone else to sort out their things. So no professional organiser is going to come in, or they't anyway and do it for you they should be doing it with you every step of the way. People need to be able to make their own decisions about

what they want to let go and that's not a decision that somebody else can make. Ingrid you've been doing this for a while 15 years I believe what are some of the big changes you've seen, particularly in our attitudes to Clutter? A lot has changed. So in the past I think the TV shows you saw it was always people with very very full houses that would have somebody to help. As soon as Marie Kondo wrote her book and Spark Joy became a thing, it completely changed people's understanding of what a professional organiser is. And of course then you got the spin-offs of more home edits with the rainbow organizing and putting it all in beautiful baskets. There's

been lots of different things that happened ever since. And many people might have been watching, you know, Stacey Solomon's Sort Your Life Out where she brings loads of the whole contents of a house into a warehouse and gets people to sort through it. Back to you, Lesley, what about the shame and judgment? Because I think many times people wouldn't have wanted others to see their clutter. And I think that's definitely still the case really and it's a big mental leap for somebody to delve into whether it's a community like our communities and to share what they're thinking or to have a professional

organiser in. because people have lived with that shame and judgment their whole lives whether it's from their own family members from their children from the ones at the school gates from their parents and it can be hard to kind of open up and so that's the first step that always has to happen on any decluttering journey is that you have to give yourself kindness give yourself grace to be able to kind of make that breakthrough. Not everybody is great at decluttering but it can be learned and so that first mental leap is all about going okay let me draw a line under this, let me move forward, it's okay,

it can be fixed. As I mentioned lots of people got in touch in advance off this program. I just want to read a couple of their comments that came in. One listener says actually typed out in capitals H E L P help and lots of exclamation points trying to clear and failing miserably mainly by doing anything and everything else I've been like this my whole 57 year life exactly and that's not uncommon another Chrissie I got in touch she says I am a complete clutter phobe sadly the man I married is not. Woe betide me if I even consider throwing out that old lollipop stick or anything

that might be useful in the future. Our children seem to have inherited my husband's obsessions. I have just returned from a visit to my son and his wife and I spent a blissful week throwing away odd socks and empty toothpaste tubes and all manner of bits and bobs that were broken and useless. Nothing gives me greater pleasure. I know that next time I visit the Clutter will be back. Contrary to what you may think, I do lead a full and happy life that does not revolve around decluttering, but it is certainly a central part. What about that Ingrid? The yin and yang. Yes. The chok and chi.

Yeah, we see it a lot. So when one person likes a more tidier house and the other doesn't. And how do you find the common ground? Where do you do the negotiations? How can you divide the tasks? Do you give them a room where they can put all their stuff? Or do you go these are the non-negotiable rooms that I really want to have tidy because I live here too. It's all about negotiation with the partner and probably when the kids are a bit older with the children as well. But it was interesting to say in Katie's research that she mentioned that so few children are involved that really because my children have been involved.

You would say I'm a professional organizer. Of course your children have been involved. But it's been very important for me that from a young age, they were involved with chores and with decluttering. But I wonder with children, whether some are natural declutterers and others are natural clutterers. Everybody is different, of course. But you can teach children to say, can you pick the things that you love?

And what really helps, instead of going, what can you get rid of? This helps actually really well with partners as well who are cluttered. Don't tell them what can you get rid of? But can you show me the things you want to keep and which are really important for you? And then let's look at the rest. And that works really well with children. Well, you're also, I'm very happy to say, staying with us, Leslie and Ingrid. I want to bring in Professor Jane Hamlett here and get into the history of clutter,

how we got to this point. She is a historian who specialises in the home, family and material culture, you're very welcome. Even the word clutter, has this always been a thing? Well, actually, I think clutter is very much a product of certain societies because you can't have clutter unless you have an economy that produces lots of things and people who can afford to buy them. So actually, if we go back to Victorian Britain, we might want to think about this

period as almost the birth of clutter because the Industrial Revolution means that more things are produced. people in general are starting to have a bit more money and so people are able to kind of start to have cluttered homes in a new way. And in fact in the Victorian period there was a big kind of movement against clutter called the design reform movement led by kind of contemporary tastemakers who argued that Victorian homes had just become too full of things. movement led by kind of contemporary taste makers who argued that Victorian homes had just become too full of things.

When I think of Victorian homes I do think of I don't know heavy drapes and tablecloths and doilies, you know trinkets everywhere, I mean everywhere really from their clothing to their housewares. How do you see it? Yeah I mean I think that's actually broadly right. By the mid-Victorian period, houses are full of furniture, upholstery and a plethora of new small things. I think it's really interesting to think about why is it that the Victorians are filling their houses up with things? And one argument is that it's all about social status, the rising middle classes want to show off to their friends and neighbours. But I think what's

really interesting is that many of these new things for the home are produced by women. So a lot of the things that are filling up your parlour and drawing room are actually things that women themselves made. They were hand-worked objects. Doyleys we've mentioned, anti-macassars, we don't sort of see them very much today. Anti-macassars, so they are little pieces of cloth that you put on the back of chairs and on the side of chairs. I never knew the name. Yes, yeah. People started to use hair oil more in the early Victorian period and so this created stains on the back of chairs so that's a Macassar oil so that's where

the word anti-macassar comes from. But yes so women are making all these things and filling up the Victorian home with them and I think it's interesting to think about why are women doing that and how should we think about those objects. And I suppose what I'm thinking of there what has been displayed in certain to think about why are women doing that and how should we think about those objects. And I suppose what I'm thinking of there, what has been displayed in certain movies or TV shows, is often middle to upper class Victorian society. Obviously it wasn't like that in poorer houses. No, absolutely. Although I would say that more people could afford things like ornaments and so forth.

So say the Staffordshire potteries, they start to produce a big range of kind of figurines and you do sometimes see Staffordshire figures are still quite prized today. For example, the twin dogs. I don't know if you've seen those. Oh, I love them. Yes, in any of your houses. So they were popularised in this period. and actually the price range was such that working people could afford them. So clutter becomes more possible for a larger number of people at this point. But we're saying the word clutter there and I think sometimes it has a negative association, if you said to me Jane, and then treasures became more prevalent, you know, like what is a treasure, what is clutter in the home? Yeah, I think that's a really important point and

actually the Victorians would not have thought of these things as clutter. That wasn't a word that they were using very much in that way and these things would have been, you know, sort of really about presenting themselves to the outside world. And for women, I think producing things for the home was often an expression of love and care and sort of care for their families. So, you know, we sort of find all these doilies a little bit funny, but actually making something was a way of showing that woman's contribution to the household and her sort of, you know, love and care for her family a lot of the time. And you remind me of the make, do and mend message coming out after the Second World War. Oh yes, so obviously kind of make, do and mend culture occurred at a

time when we had a very different relationship with clothing. So it was very usual for women to do kind of routine maintenance on clothing. So sewing and darning, mending socks and stockings was a really big thing. So most women would have had a sewing kit and would spend a lot of time and labor actually repairing clothing belonging to the family. So the make, do

and mend movement was very much kind of part of that culture and was really cut, this was really pushed by the government during the Second World War and the idea was of course that people would make things go for longer during a period of rationing. But this kind of worked because women were so used to maintaining clothing for the family. Yeah and of course that would be the opposite of what we call fast fashion, you know, disposable clothing. I mean there has been a return in some parts to that idea of sustainability, upcycling, repurposing. I'd be curious, Lesley, how you see that when you're working in a professional

organizer capacity. We find sometimes that it can stop people in their tracks a little bit because people are too fixated on trying to do something different with their stuff and actually won't allow it to go out of the house onto its next life. Quite often when we do kind of big mug de-clutters people like, oh that would be great on the windowsill, that'd be great as a pen pot. And we're like, if you've got 30 extra mugs sometimes you just need to let some of them go just mean we can't reuse and recycle everything and we can recycle it to somewhere else but not in our own

homes but it's important sustainability and doing the right thing for the environment is really important because you know Jane was talking about the make do amend era and we see this clash where you had the later generations of that make do amend era clashing with the sort of you know consumerism that came later in the 20th century and they all clashes and everyone keeps things and buys things at the same time and that's where it all started to go wrong really. And so the cupboard door is groaning. It appears to be when you look online that so many women are attracted to this work of professional organising and also perhaps the ones reaching

out to people like Lesley and Ingrid to come help them. Where are men in this picture? There are men in the professional organising industry but they're less common and it's changing a little bit isn't it Ingrid but whereas it used to be 98% women in this industry I would say 98% of our clients were women as well and there's definitely a few more men picking up the phone to ask for help and a few more men coming into the industry so I don't know why that is really. I'm going to throw back to Jane for a moment your thoughts on that how it's so female dominated. It's really interesting to me as a historian going back to the 19th century one of the few things that women were able to do in the public world and to make a living in was offering domestic

advice and there are a number of really quite successful best-selling female writers offering advice on how you should manage your home, what you should do with household decoration in the sort of second half of the 19th century. So I think we've had this very long-term tradition of women assuming responsibility and really sort of taking the domestic sphere as an area in which they can show knowledge and authority, which of course we know they haven't always been able to do in a kind of male-dominated world. Yeah, very interesting how much a culture within an industry, how it will endure.

You're going to all stay with us, which is wonderful. We have Katie, Leslie, Ingrid and Jane. But I also want to turn to another guest. She may be familiar to you as a judge on interior design masters, but Michelle Ogundahin is also a passionate advocate for the connection between our homes and our wellbeing. She was an architect, then magazine editor, and the author and presenter now describes herself as a homes therapist. In her book Happy Inside she explored the relationship we have with our homes saying what surrounds you is

as fundamental to your well-being as diet, sleep and exercise. She is also a huge fan of decluttering and I got to speak to Michelle a little earlier. Visual clutter is more exhausting than we realize. It's not just stuff. Our brains are constantly processing our surroundings. So they have to work overtime if they're surrounded by chaos. So if you feel drained or exhausted at home, it could be your clutter. I mean, we know that homily, clear space, clear mind. But everyone must have a different level of clutter that is distracting, right? Like one man's clutter is one woman's, we're on women's, or one woman's clutter

is another woman's treasures. Well, I love that you say that because this is not a call for minimalism. When I talk about clutter clearing, it is not about getting rid of the things you love, it is not about leaving yourself with sort of one perfect pot just so on a kind of linen tableau. I mean I love my things. I have lots of things. I think our things are like the talismans of your life. They tell your story but the key is to surround yourself with the things that actually tell the story that you want it to tell and so it's about coherence rather than chaos in editing those things and then you

just keep the things that reinforce you that uplift you that when you walk through the door you think oh gosh I loved that vase present pot whatever it was or this reminds me of my holiday or it's your kids drawings it's those things that have a very positive connotation for you because I have literally walked into someone's house and gone, oh, that's an interesting vase. And the person has responded, oh, someone gave it to me, I don't really like it. You think, why is it there? Why is it sent to place? And they feel compelled to keep it because it was a gift. So sometimes it's about giving yourself permission to actually get rid of that thing.

How do you do that though? Slowly, absolutely slowly. It is not about thinking right that's it, it's all got to go, I want clear surfaces. It's about really taking it one step at a time. Maybe you start with a draw, you know, we all have the draws. I mean I actually, when I'm designing band draws, because they are just the kind of hidden holes of horror where we tuck everything away and we ram it shut. I think we have to take a moment for that, Michelle. The hidden hole of horror? Yes. Drawers, cupboards, things with doors on them, attics and basements, you know, where

we think we've hidden something away so then it's out of mind, out of, you know, that we don't think about it anymore. It's that we do. That stuff is almost like this sort of psychological weight in our homes, this stagnant energy. But in terms of how do you approach clearing, small little by little, you know, make it fun. One of the things I sometimes do on my Instagram is do a clearing challenge. So you pick a month. I mean, I usually pick February because it's a short month. On the first day of the month you get rid of one thing, on the second day two things, the third day three things and you usually get to about day 10 and you think yeah I'm doing this, this is great and it's not too heavy. But it forces you to go into those you know cupboards of horror

and the basement and the attic and ask yourself the questions. But the advantage of doing it as a monthly challenge means it does contain it, it limits it to just that one month because we all have busy lives. I think that's so interesting because I know many people probably put off the decluttering because it can be such a time suck, right? It is time-consuming, it is exhausting not just physically but emotionally at times. So you think give it a miss for the other 11 months? No, I think once you start it becomes it becomes quite compelling because I mean we know that it is exhausting but the thing is when you get used to living with less you actually make space, more time, for more energy, for more fun, for more activities.

Ultimately that ripples out to absolutely everything else we do. Let us talk about curating the things that we have collected up until this point to stop it looking like clutter. Containment is the golden word. I love a display shelf. What I think doesn't work is when we litter our things across every surface, so across the mantel place, you know, by the TV, on every windowsill. That's when it starts to look cluttered. My son has in his room these two long shelves that have lots of little cubby holes in them. I think they used to be CD shelves. And the pleasure that he had in taking out all his little treasures, his little trinkets, his rocks, his Lego, his little models and putting them all on, that made home for him. So when he has his

treasure sort of shelves, he's home. And I also love to sometimes just go in there and just look at his things because this is my son, the things that he considers valuable and it's such, such a pleasure. Anyone who has watched you on Interior Design Masters will know you have the most beautiful wardrobe of clothing. But wardrobes can be a huge problem area for people. What is your advice for tackling clothing? Oh, one in one out. Really? Yes. You don't need the latest fashions to validate yourself. I mean, I aspire to be

capsule wardrobe woman. I mean, on the school run, it's jeans and I've probably got three identical t-shirts and straightforward clothes. And then there is the separate wardrobe that is for the show. But I borrow most of the things because I'm never going to wear it day to day. If it's just hanging in your wardrobe it's no good to anyone and it's a little bit sad and forlorn why not pass it on to someone who will wear it every day and will love it and you make more space in your wardrobe. I mean even physically we need space around our clothes to help them breathe otherwise our clothes won't last very long. But I think there's something, I mean maybe I'm odd, but I find there's something really thrilling about just limiting the stuff and knowing who I

am, that I'm just comfortable in what I wear. I mean it is fun to dress up but some of those clothes, I mean I had that fantastic sparkly sequined jumpsuit but I'm not wearing that on the school run. Do I need it hanging in my wardrobe as some sort of signifier of disco nights? Do I keep it for dress-up day? I think I'd have to hang on to the sequined jumpsuit but I do take your point. Okay so wardrobe is one. Let me turn to another. Books. Okay now here you've got me. You can never have too many books. I mean if you could see where I'm sitting right now I have literally just tried to organize all my books because there were so many boxes of them and they are so heavy that

I thought right that's it I am I'm going to go through them. There's a very small pile of books that I'm prepared to let go because in my neighborhood there's one of those wonderful phone box lending libraries so I'm going to go and gift the books there but everything else I've just very neatly put all in category order and I found a book on typography that I studied when I lived in New York probably 20 years ago. Should I get rid of it? Probably, but I'm not going to. When I was flicking through it, I remembered studying at the University in New York. And I remembered the smell of cow gum. And I remembered drawing out the letters

and about being about the spaces between the letters. And it's one book that I permitted myself to keep. So I used to think you could also not have too many cushions. But I think I've reached peak cushions. No more cushions are allowed in my life. OK, what would be your top tip for our listeners who are perhaps listening today saying, OK, I'm going to do it? First step.

As much as it is about getting rid of the things that don't contribute to the story you want to tell, it is also about setting a really clear intention to reduce the amount of things you buy, deciding for yourself when you have enough. Bottom line, I don't really care how you fold your socks, but I do care how you feel. And I promise you that when you clear away the stuff that has no purpose in your life, you will feel better, lighter, uplifted, energised. Home's therapist Michelle O'Gundian, thanks so much to her. Around the table with me I have Katie Motram, I also have Leslie and Ingrid. Katie is from Good Housekeeping, a survey we've been talking about decluttering. Leslie and Ingrid are from the Declutter Hub. I also have Jane

Hamlet with me who is a historian off the home but we are going to add another guest to our lineup and that is Stelios Kiosos. He is a psychotherapist and an author who featured on the Channel 4 program The Hoarder Next Door. You're very welcome to our conversation Stelios. Well thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So before we get into the decluttering per se, many people describe themselves as a hoarder or a bit of a hoarder. But that is a different medical condition to really what we're talking about in a day to day basis. Yeah, it's a totally different condition.

I think if we're going back to clutter, the first thing we need to understand is how clutter affects us emotionally and physically, and then just very briefly see the difference between compulsive holding, because the key word here is compulsion, because I know you mentioned before the word holding, but it's only in my experience when the problem is compulsive that the hoarding becomes a problem. But in terms of psychological and emotional effects that clutter has, we know from studies that it increases stress and anxiety because it increases the levels of cortisol in our

bodies, which we know is the stress hormone. Turning up the volume of this visual noise in front of us, creates a kind of disorganisation conflict within our heads, which produces then fatigue and so forth. But my question would be, surely that's just for some people, I'm thinking of Albert Einstein when asked about his messy desk, he said, if a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, then what are we to think of an empty desk? Some people say tidy desk, tidy mind. But you know, maybe clutter,

could it be comforting to some people? It is comforting to some people, and I think depends on how you are used within your surroundings. So, you know, the expression, this organizational chaos, you know, you can actually have some kind of mapping in your head in terms of your clutter around you But we're talking about clutter that impinges on everyday lives

Doesn't just limit itself on a desk with a lot of papers like you said with Einstein But actually it spills over to other parts of our lives like our bedrooms, for example So if your bedroom is cluttered one of the most important things is affected, which is your sleep. Now sleep is a miracle, sleep is a restorative process, and if that is affected through your clutter, then your whole day and your stress levels increase. So I like the example you used, but that's only limited to Einstein's desk. So we need to look at the whole picture really. I thought you were going to say it's only limited to geniuses. To geniuses, yes, of course.

But you know, there are so many mixed messages coming at people because there is a buy this, buy that marketing push everywhere you turn, online and offline. And then at the same time, this message has been pushed that we're expected to have a decluttered living space. How do you understand this point in time psychologically for people? I'd like to make an analogy here. There's something called the obisogenic environment. This is where the environment increases the habit of us overeating. Now there's a similar environment where the environment increases our habit of compulsive buying. I mean, don't forget, you know, a lot of these things that we are consciously or unconsciously made to buy become a habit after a while, then becomes a routine. And of course, the things that are sold to us are things that have a very short lifespan

geared in such a way where you have to replace it very soon again. And that perpetuates the actual compulsion to buy again and again and again. It becomes a problem because we are overwhelmed and drowned in stuff that not necessarily we need, but we're made to think that we need. But let me turn to you, Ingrid. You've talked about the term clutter blindness. What is that? And tell me about the impact it's had on clients. Yeah, I think it's something that you see

when people have clutter around them, they stop seeing the piles and the clutter because it builds up over time. The clutter is not something that appears from one day to the next. Over time, sometimes five years, eight years, 14 years, the clutter builds up slowly but surely. And when people then start to want to change and go, okay, I'm too chaotic, I'm too overwhelmed,

I don't want this any longer, and you start to peel away slowly but surely, they start to see things that they didn't see anymore over time. And they start to see the piles that are in the corner, what is this stuff doing there? I've walked past this 500 times, but I'd never clocked it before. And when you slowly, and that's why I love what Michelle said as well, you have to do decluttering slowly but surely, one drawer, one cupboard at a time. You can't go in all guns blazing. You can't go in, that's what we hear all the time, this weekend I'm going to

sort out my whole room of doom and after two hours in they will look around and go what have I done there's more chaos than there was before because they've bitten off too much that they can chew. Here's a message, clutter is a pain in the neck, it builds up for 101 reasons. Personally it was being lonely in my marriage so craft items, wool, fabrics gathered and slowly took over. What an evocative image. With the help of a fantastic young friend, I'm in my late 60s and partially disabled, slowly we're getting there. But it's got to be with understanding and good end destinations for often long owned

belongings. When that happens it's a great feeling so please don't give up hope sending that out to other listeners perhaps that are despairing of the piles that are around them. But back to you Stelios, why do we sometimes become so emotionally attached to items? We become attached to items from a very early age in our lives really and these are what we call healthy normal attachments. So from childhood, for example, we can get attached to objects like blankets, toys, or perhaps our child can have a favorite item of clothing,

for example. But that's the natural part of the emotional development that we see in our upbringing. And then of course that sometimes continues into adulthood. So as adults we can continue attaching to things, but to items like in terms of nostalgia, or as a symbol of an important relationship, or an achievement, or a milestone for example,

items that we've inherited that remind us of our grandparents. So there is an attachment that continues, but that's unhealthy attachment to stuff. It becomes a problem when the items you have interfere with your daily functioning or causes you to feel distressed and the people perhaps around you as well. So hoarding, for example, is characterized by the excessive collection of items. And of course then you have difficulty discarding those items leading to clutter that disrupts your daily living space. Which is a more extreme example, but even with

day-to-day clutter houses that just have too much stuff in them people do feel shame about that. How do you think Stelios people can tackle that shame? Well, very gently and very compassionately because in terms of therapy, we always say shame comes with guilt and anger. You're dealing with three types of emotions in one. So when you're dealing with someone you want to help as a family member or as a partner, you have to be very gentle and be very patient about improving their situation and sometimes maybe you need outside help and you need professional

help if you feel the task is too much for you but again small steps are really really really important in helping someone to declutter. You mentioned nostalgia, there is, Lesley and Ingrid, a philosophy that you have about dealing with nostalgic items, like children's things for example, that can be challenging. What do you advise? You need to look at quality over quantity every time because everything, at the time that it comes into our home, when our children have just painted a picture or anything relating to our kids or a milestone that we've had ourselves, that Stelios mentioned there, over

time that starts to dissipate a little bit. So we need to constantly be looking at things and going, is that really as special as it was when it came in? And actually, if we keep everything then nothing is special anymore. So it's so important, just the simple quality of quantity for all sentimental items. We hear a lot about empty nest syndrome. Here's a message from another listener. Our son has moved out of home and while it's been a mix of emotions it's been an opportunity to declutter and completely revamp his bedroom so that when he does come back to visit it's a warm and welcoming room and it's been an

opportunity for me to decorate it however I want what's your thoughts on that Ingrid? I did this last year so I'm right I'm right there I did lots of decluttering with my son as well. Some things went with him to uni, other things left his room, and some things were kept and they were put in the loft because they were lovely. But I've had a massive change around my house as well. My daughter's now moved into my son's room, I've moved into her room, and it's given an opportunity to change things around a little bit and really also look whose memory is it. Because for example, if you keep your children's first pairs of shoes,

you think you keep it for them, but actually it's your memory because you remember going to shops and buying it with them and thinking how cute they looked and when they did their first little steps. So it's evaluating as well. Is this something that you actually really like? Is it your memory? Or is it actually something that I kind of put in your room and you've now kept because I thought it was a lovely idea? You know, that really brings me on to our next part of this conversation. You are listening to Woman's Hour. It's good to have your company as we talk about decluttering, whether you're into it or not. Lots of you did have questions about it.

Let's go to the end of the spectrum, shall we say, and the gentle art of Swedish death cleaning. So it sounds slightly ominous, but it is basically the practice of clearing out your things and getting your house in order before you die. And the reason for doing it is so that others don't have to do it after you're gone. The Swedish artist, Margareta Magnusson, she was aged somewhere between 80 and 100 and wrote a book about it in 2018. It became a very popular book, not to mention a US TV show

narrated by the comedian Amy Poehler. So we had this message also from a listener, this is Anne. After spending the past three years storing, sorting and selling deceased elderly relatives precious collected belongings, I now at the age of 64 have started sorting and selling stuff that I do not need as I do not want my children to have to sort out our unnecessary possessions after I have died. My aim is that my children will be able to give away all of my stuff without guilt to charity. I have friends of a similar age, they're in their 60s, who are still

collecting and buying. Some items are worth money so they're hanging on to them for that reason. Who do they think will have time to sell it for its true value when they die? So sell it now, get its true value, enjoy it, spend it on yourself or give it to your children or grandchildren. Interesting story there from Anne. Thanks for that. Katie Emutrim is still with us. Katie is Homes and Household Advice Editor for Good Housekeeping Magazine. How does that story strike you? It's quite commonplace to be honest. I've tried Swedish deaf cleaning for myself. I will say that... You are a young woman. Yes, but I've tried a good few techniques in my time. But with Swedish deaf cleaning,

I will say that's a large scale decluttering technique. So that is definitely not something you could do in a weekend. So explain it to us. So essentially it's changing your perspective as you work your way through items, thinking, you know, if my children or, you know, loved ones, what would they think about this? You know, would they think it's worth keeping or would they be indecisive? You know, are you passing on a problem to someone else who's got the sentimentality attached to it as well? Well, you might think, oh yeah, you know, I would just recycle this or donate it or whatever. Your loved ones might think, I really don't know what to do with this. I just picture, you know, my friend or family member and then

it's making the problem even worse. So Swedish deaf cleaning is just another mindset to think of as you work your way through your home essentially. And also encouraging conversations with loved ones about the things. Yes, for sure. It's very important. I think the rules were you're working away from large volume items to small, so you sort of see the progress quickly, starting off with easier areas,

like the attic or the basement or maybe clothes or any areas that are sort of less sentimentality evolved. And then you work your way up to the sentimental items at the very end. And the idea is you're pre-labeling items for what you do with them. So you don't have to sort of remove things that are of great value.

You can simply mark up what they are, the idea so others can sort of see what to do with them. So you're literally removing the process for them. It's quite something, Lesley, isn't it? Because basically you're thinking of your own mortality as you do this job. I would just love people to do it for themselves and not for the people that are, you know, the children.

Like, just do that process for yourself. Don't worry about what happens when you die. Do it for now. Try and create less stress, more time, you know. Do it for you, you know what I mean? Go, what do I love at the moment in my house? What's really, you know, fitting my current lifestyle at the moment?

So it's exactly the same as Katie said, Swedish death cleaning, our own process, reset your home system, starts with easier, less emotional stuff first. That's where you need to be, because our minds automatically take us to difficult areas. We think about the room of doom. We think about the books.

We think about the clothes that we love. We don't think about the kind of extra spice in our kitchen that's five years out a day. We don't think about those things. So start in the kitchen, start in the bathroom, where decisions are much more practical than they are emotional, and build it up. So it's the same process, but do it for yourself. Don't just wait until that looming death is there. Do you know what I mean?

Katie, let me come. You gave your niece a necklace. Tell me about that. Oh, so that was a difficult decision. When I was playing the minimalism game, which is another decluttering technique, I did my jewelry box. And one of the things in there was a gold pendant my parents gave me when I was a little girl.

So obviously I had a lot of emotion attached to it. And I sort of paused like, I can't get rid of that. But at the same time, I sort of second guessed because I was like, you know what, I completely forgot I had this and it's just sat in here gathering dust and I can't wear it again. I'll be honest, it's like a dolphin shape so I can't really wear it nowadays. But I sort of paused and thought, oh what would I do with it then? And I was like, do you know what, my niece would absolutely adore this. So I offered it out to her and now she wears it and I see it. It's had value added to it again. So I think it's important as you declutter to think, would someone else

value this more than me? And we will come to the exit plan, not for ourselves, but for our stuff in just a moment. But you know, Stelios, I'm struck by how often that sentimental attachment is one of the most difficult things to break when it comes to parting with stuff. Why is that? Well, I think the first thing we need to distinguish is the difference between sentimentality and nostalgia. I mean, we heard the two words today, but I wonder if we really know the difference between an item that's sentimental and an item that's nostalgic, really.

And I think that's really important, especially when we start decluttering or helping someone to declutter. So we tend to be sentimental to items that are more symbolically representative in the here and now. And very briefly, nostalgia is something where we attach memories to. So we have a memory of an item. So let's say you become sentimental about your child's toy, but you're nostalgic of the time you used to play with that toy with your child.

So it's a really important distinction when you work with someone to understand the difference and to help them part with the items or taking a photograph of the item for example But still having the kind of nostalgic memories and emotions attached to that experience So it's the experience or when we buy an item if you think about it the item You know from a shelf or bookstore or whatever that item is has no emotional value to it, isn't it? It's the experience and in time, the association we have with that item that becomes more emotionally charged. And this is the nostalgic part of it because we attach memory. So that's a really important definition, I think, when we work

with someone to declutter. Yeah, it can kind of help us understand why are we holding on to something that might seem inconsequential to others that are looking at it. Katie, you mentioned Swedish deck cleaning, you mentioned minimalism. Do you think the method matters of what is employed or maybe I should really throw that over to Ingrid? Yes, I do. That's why I think Lesley and I were so proud of finding our own method because we worked with so many clients for such a long time and we really realized that

when you want to declutter a lot of the people look at how does it look and how It's all about the stuff It was always all about the stuff a lot of things we read saw on television was about the stuff and we said no you need to understand emotions that sit behind the stuff and then you can make headway into going to declutter it. But you know we're just talking about tangible things in our hands for example what about all the digital clutter? I'm talking about those inboxes that might be overflowing, the photographs, how many thousands perhaps on your phone and various devices, There's also the devices which we can get into that are probably in the cupboard that are unused.

Our advice normally if you are struggling at home with physical items is leave the digital stuff either till later or something when you're sat there you know enjoying yourself in the evening or whatever. But yeah, absolutely needs to be tackled because if we've got an inbox with 300,000 emails and we literally have seen that quite regularly in our world, how are you ever going to make headway with other things in your lives? You know, we're talking before about quality over quantity. We want to be able to do that with our photographs, to be able to see and find the things that we want to make us happy. It's all related. It's completely related. So digital stuff needs to be tackled, but perhaps at a time that is right if you've got lots of physical stuff would be our advice. Did you want to come in, Casey? It's a good time to declutter

digitally during the Sunday reset, take a couple of hours each Sunday to do certain things around the home. It's a great chance to, as you say, organize your photos and delete any apps you're not using. You can just gradually do that, you know, an hour a week at a time. I mean, for myself, the biggest problem is the photos. My iCloud storage is overflowed. So the way I do that... You're not alone. No, I know. I think it's quite a common problem. So the way I do that is each week I sort of tell myself I'll work through a month's worth of photos I've taken at a time, organize

those into albums. Because you know, when you want to show a photo from memory to someone and you're sort of scrolling through. Trying to remember what year. Yeah, slowly making them smaller, trying to scroll yourself back. But then you'll know where everything is. And if there are any you really want to keep and you don't want to risk losing, you know, you can actually print them if they had that much meaning for you. Interesting you talk about storage, the in real life storage solutions. What have you got to say about that Ingrid?

Storage is amazing. There's nothing wrong with storage. What a lot of people do, they buy storage before they declutter. And we say you need to declutter first, determine where the item is going to live, which other items is going to live with, and then you buy storage. I suppose it's probably a whole world of storage containers that I know nothing about. Oh, there's storage containers for everything. You have to think about what room there is. You need sturdier storage containers in a garage or in a basement or a loft. You need smaller probably plastic containers in a bathroom because you know you don't want to put anything

cardboard in a bathroom because it's humid. You have to think about this, but you need to measure, you need to think about what do I need to store? Can I label something to make it easier for yourself? But don't make the mistake in buying storage before you've decluttered. Katie, I agree with you. I think storage solutions are a bit of a double-edged sword. If you bring it in before you've decided what to keep, it's almost encouraging you to keep more than you need. I've stacked two shoe racks in my wardrobe, thinking,

oh, I can double my shoe space. And then it's actually sort of come into contact with dresses and coats on the rail. So I've had to remove and completely redo it. And my partner's used one of those hanging storage cubby holes, which has been absolutely wedged to the point where, you know, the shelves are like bending down into U shapes and the cat can't even fit in anymore. Be careful with your containers. Okay, with the

best will in the world, there's going to be no clear out that will work without an exit plan. Here is a message from a listener. This is Laura. I've just moved our four person family out of our home after 11 years. The clear out was enormous. The biggest challenge, however, was finding responsible onward pathways for all our unneeded things. One for scrap metal, for all those leftover screws and allen keys. Another for leftover paint, a cot mattress, washable nappies. Who needs this old laptop the most? What do charity shops actually do with our unwanted clothing? It became our mission to send as little to landfill as possible and the time and effort

is overwhelming sometimes. I'm hoping the lessons will stay with us and make us consider everything we buy and where it will go after we have finished using it. Ingrid, what do people need to think about for their exit plan? I think you need to start to think about your exit plan before you start to declutter because you don't want to have piles and piles of stuff building up in a hallway. So in advance you need to speak to your charity, your local charity shop and go what items do you want, which items don't you want. You need to speak to your charity, your local charity shop and go, what items do you want? Which items don't you want?

You need to go to your recycling center. Recycling centers and tips take so many things now, from light bulbs to batteries to scrap metal. I mean, I was there on the weekend and the list just gets longer and longer. And then there are of course, there are things that you think think, oh I can't really bring this to a charity shop, I don't want to throw it away because it still has life in it. And I think that's where the giveaway apps really really come into its own. Things like Olio, things like Freecycle, Freegal, amazing.

You snap a picture and you offer it. But that is interesting that you offer it because, Manny, listening, will say I'm holding on to that because I hope to sell it at some point because I think it's worth something. Leslie? Oh dearie me, where do we go with the selling? Yeah, I think selling is absolutely fantastic for some people. So if people have tried and tested, know their processes, can invest the time and know that they're gonna do that, selling is a fantastic way to make money out of your clutter, but you

have to exercise some realism here and go, is this actually going to happen? If you're that person that's got three bin bags of stuff still under your desk waiting to be sold on eBay or Vinted, perhaps you need to do yourself a favor and go, do you know what? I'm just going to pass it on. I'm going to donate it to the charity shop, I'm going to do things in a different way and I'm actually going to declutter and not churn it from my house. Churn, Katie, what does that word mean? So churning is quite a common habit actually, it's the idea of moving things around rather than making a final decision on them.

So as you declutter it's that save for later pile, so to speak. Sometimes like in my case, I pulled some bin bags together of what was going to be removed from my wardrobe, then it sat in a corner in my front room and I just completely forgot to deal with it. I left it so long I had to go through it again to remember what actually was in there to make final decisions. Well Ingrid, you're nodding your head here. I mean, does that happen? People go through step one, two, three and four but don't make it to step five? Yes, all the time. We find bags all the time and don't even know what it was anymore, have

to go through it again. So it's really important to incorporate this exit plan within the day or the next day that you are doing this decluttering. So that's why it's important to figure out before where are these items going to go. And please, please don't make a bag to go to your best friend if they don't even know that you're gonna give this back to them. Ask them before, I'm doing a declutter, I found a few bits, do you want this?

Instead of going, hi, here's a bag with things that I decluttered, I'm making my problem your problem. Because you don't wanna dump your stuff on other people. Estelle we have a message I'd be curious for your thoughts on this. After retiring from full-time work I do feel overwhelmed by decluttering it's mostly too many clothes as well as cupboards stuffed with things that need sorting out. I find I can only do a bit at a time as decluttering is so tiring but I want it to be done once and for all. What advice would you give? The advice I would give is a very simple technique and it's

called mental contrasting. What we call a cognitive strategy that involves contrasting your desired future with your current situation and obstacles. And it's very simple. You just define your goals, you visualize your outcome, you identify, you know, outcome, you identify perhaps the obstacles or the reality you have at this moment in time and then you recognize how you can overcome those obstacles. And that was Jill, thanks for your message Jill. Here's another, I don't have the name of this woman who got in touch but she says, my adult boys take the mickey out of my collection of

ceramic hens and cockerels. I intend to keep increasing it. I am on a mission to leave as much toot behind as possible. I don't know what her sons ever did to her but that is another way I guess of approaching it. Jane you've been listening to this, you are a historian. I'm wondering how we'll look back on this time do do you think, of this people trying to get rid of the stuff, which is such a privilege in a way because they've been able to buy it at some point or inherit it, whatever it may be. I think that's right. I think that we will look back on the 21st century as a period of relative privilege.

You know, historians don't like to predict the future and I don't know who knows where we will be in 50, 100 years time. But I do think that we are in a situation where large numbers of people can afford to have clutter for the first time and that is relatively new if you think about, you know, accumulating hundreds of pairs of shoes, for example, you know, that has only really been possible since the introduction of fast fashion in the 1990s. So actually clutter on a large scale for everyone is a relatively new experience in the late 20th and 21st century and I think we will look back on it as something that does mark out our age as different and distinct, especially for people living in this country, not all around the world of

course. And we talked about clutter, put that in inverted commas, as something desirable within the Victorian age. Could it become desirable again? Well I think that, you know, we are talking about the sentimental and emotional value of objects, aren't we, and prioritising those. And actually those things are still really important. It's still really important to use our homes to project ourselves and we see them as part of our identity. So, you know, decluttering, we're not suggesting sort of getting rid of everything. We're still really trying to hone in on those objects that are most important to us. And I think that's something people have been doing for a very long time.

I see you nodding along my other guests that were with me today and that is Lesley Spellman and Ingrid Jensen, the Declutter Hub, Katie Motram, the Household Advice Editor of Good Housekeeping magazine, we had psychotherapist Stelios Kiosis and historian that you've just been hearing, Professor Jane Hamlet. The presenter, author and homes therapist, Michelle Ogundian also joined us. Thank you so much to them and also to all of you who got in touch with all your questions and your comments. That is it from us for today. Thank you for being with us. Maybe we've inspired you to go forth and declutter or just to leave the mess and go outside.

Whatever it is, best of luck. We do wish you well. But whatever your plans, do join us again for Woman's Hour tomorrow at 10 a.m. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, we're the Van Tullekens, the identical twin Dr. Van Tullekens, Chris and Zand.

In What's Up Docs, we're diving into the messy, complicated world of health and wellbeing. We are living in the middle of what I would call a therapeutic revolution, but it can sometimes be hard to know what's really best for us. Do I need to take a testosterone supplement? How can I fix my creaky knees? Why do I get hangry? Is organic food actually better for me?

We're going to be your guides through the confusion. We'll talk to experts in the field and argue about what we've learned and share what we've learned. And maybe disagree a fair bit too. No we won't. What's up Docs from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.