Woman's Hour - Demi Moore, Sexual assault allegations at Harrods, Women in war

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

Emmy and Golden Globe-nominated actor Demi Moore is a name recognised by many, from her standout role as Molly Jensen in the film Ghost, to Lieutenant Commander Joanne Galloway in A Few Good Men. But it’s her role as Elisabeth Sparkle in new movie, The Substance, which has got a lot of people talking. Many see it as a commentary on Hollywood’s beauty standards and fear of ageing. Demi joins Kylie Pentelow live to discuss it.Last week the BBC broadcast Al Fayed: Predator at Harrods, a documentary and podcast which alleged that former Harrods chairman Mohamed Al Fayed sexually assaulted women who worked at the store. Kylie speaks to the woman who was the catalyst for the documentary - Sophia Stone and to her husband Keaton Stone. Sophia alleges that she was groomed and then sexually assaulted by Al Fayed. Keaton was determined to help her and approached other women who had worked at Harrods. The BBC has heard testimony from more than 20 female ex-employees who say Al Fayed, who died last year, sexually assaulted or raped them. The current owners say they are "utterly appalled" by the allegations and are seeking to settle claims "in the quickest way possible”.How women cracked Wall Street, the iconic hub of New York's finance district, is the subject of writer and historian Paulina Bren's book She Wolves. It tells the inside story of these women, from the sixties up until 9/11.Today the charity Women for Women release their findings which offers a rare glimpse in to the perspectives of women living in conflict areas. The charity’s International Director Sara Bowcutt joins Kylie to explain their findings.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today I'll speak to Hollywood A-lister Demi Moore. She is the star of a new film which explores ageing in a very confronting way. And she's naked in a number of scenes. I'll be talking to her about that and how she feels about her body image now. So we want to ask you, as you get older, how do you celebrate your ageing body? You can text the programme, the number is 84844, or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the

number 03700100444. Also, you will have heard the allegations about Mohammed Al-Fayed and the documentary that's mobilised many women to come forward. Today, we'll hear from the woman who was the catalyst for making that documentary. After not telling anyone, decades later, she told her partner, who's in the TV industry, about what happened to her when she worked at Harrods. And then together they spoke to others who said they'd been abused. We'll hear what it was like for her after her biggest secret was made so public. And Wall Street, the iconic home of traders and bankers, but a place that for decades wasn't welcoming to women.

We'll be talking to the historian who's been delving into how the first women who made their mark in the industry. But first, Emmy and Golden Globe nominated actor Demi Moore. Now, I'm sure just saying her name conjures up countless films that you've seen her in. Her standout role, of course, is Molly Jensen in Ghost or as Joanne Galloway in A Few Good Men. She's also starred in St Elmo's Fire, Indecent Proposal, or more recently portrayed socialite Anne Woodward in the TV miniseries Feud, Capote vs. the Swans. But it's her role as Elizabeth Sparkle in new movie The Substance, which has got a lot of people talking. Demi stars alongside Margaret

Qualley, who plays the character of Sue in a film that's described as a satirical body horror. Now, many see it as a commentary on Hollywood's beauty standards and fear of aging. And I'm absolutely delighted to say that Demi joins me live on the line to discuss this. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello and thank you so much for having me. It's an absolute delight. So let's start by talking about the film. So we meet Elizabeth Sparkle. She's a bit of an aerobics TV star, isn't she? It's on her 50th birthday when the film begins and her life seems to be changing. What drew you to this role in particular? I really felt like it was such an interesting, out of the box, unique way of delving into this

subject matter that really captivated me. I mean, and as you've seen the film, I believe, Katie, it's such a wild ride, but there was something so visceral in taking, you know, this really relatable human experience that is set around women, but I really felt was very human. That idea of kind of seeking perfection, chasing perfection, as it were. And the director of the film said that,

casting you in this role, she felt that you really understood what she was going to need from you. And you were ready to take a risk. Did it seem like a risk starring in this? I think emotionally it was. I knew that the role was going to be very demanding emotionally, like a level of vulnerability and rawness, as well as physically, which is also,

you know, anytime I think you look at something that pushes you out of your comfort zone, there's usually something that says, I'm a little afraid, but maybe it's the kind of fear I need to push me to the next level within myself and within my work. We were talking about comfort zones and being naked must have pushed you out of your comfort zone. What was that like, both filming it and then watching it back? Two very different experiences. But I think, you you know in filming it look going into this i knew just the the the kind of the the nature of of the story how she was telling the story with there being this you know newer better version of me that part of being, you know, or I guess a way of describing it, I kind of represent the

matrix in this. I am the original. And Margaret is the younger, better version that I knew I, that part of the level of honesty that this needed was that it was not going to be a glamorous shoot for me. This was not about being lit beautifully, having angles that were high. In fact, it was going to be the exact opposite. It was really going in and allowing for those most vulnerable places to be highlighted, things that we generally don't necessarily want focus on with these low angle shots. And I have to say, there was something quite liberating about that. And even though it was vulnerable now as to seeing it, you know, it's the nudity is really less, it's not sexualized nudity it's in it's especially for elizabeth my character it's um because you know most of my scenes are with myself and there's not a lot of dialogue and so

so much of it was really having a very vast and deep inner life that i could bring to this with very little expression, except through the subtleties. And yeah, and I had no hesitation, because I think I knew that this had also an important opportunity to really set a few, you know, more pavers down for the road of culture, for a cultural shift. Do you consider that? I mean, you know, thinking back to when you did the Vanity Fair shoot, when you were naked and pregnant. That at the time was absolutely groundbreaking. When you were doing that, that photo shoot, were you thinking this is going to change things for women in the future? No, I think I was aware that

it could be very dynamic and have an impact. But I think so much of the choices in my experience have really been in a way, first and foremost, for my own questions, my own, the challenges within myself. And in doing so, I think that in certain cases, they have had an impact on a bigger level that has been relatable. But no, it's not like I'm going in with that being the intention. It's almost as if that can happen, then it's stumbled more onto what my true intention is, which is maybe being more of just a truth seeker. You have had to transform your body for some of your roles. I'm thinking G.I. Jane. How has that been for you? Because it must have been pretty punishing on your body to go through

that physical, mental ordeal. I mean, I think it's, it's, it's clearly, you know, my, my relationship with my body has been a big part of my own personal story. And I think in that way, and I write about it in my memoir, what's interesting for me is, I am not Elizabeth, as you know,, were very different. But I think in my younger years, in fact, I did experience a lot of moments of embarrassment, humiliation in relation to being told to lose weight. But again, like the film, what really struck me and was the most powerful part about reading the script and now in the film is it's not what's being done to her. It's not the fact that she's being fired from her own show that for aging out, as it were. It's really the violence that she's holding against herself. And the idea that in the film, if we were to create a visual representation of how critical and harsh and violent we could be,

what would that look like? And in that way, I feel it was the most relatable and had the most opportunity for imparting that question of what is real deep acceptance self acceptance self-love i love what you put out for your for your listeners all also to come back with i would love to see what they come back with how they celebrate their own bodies already we're getting lots of comments in this one here um says i, I am a curvaceous, soon-to-be 58-year-old woman, and only since turning 50 have I been relaxed about my body,

so much so that I became a part-time life model for a couple of local drawing classes, and I love it. Oh, my God, that's fantastic. That's brilliant, isn't it? That's fantastic, yes. And I think that shows, you know, certainly from my personal experience, the older I get, the more comfortable I get with my body, even though my body might not look as good to other people's eyes, maybe, as it did when I was 20. Do you feel more comfortable in your own skin now? Yes, I think that there, you know, it's this idea of changing, you know, the kind of the ease and grace that I feel within myself, not just my body, but within myself. Like it's that opportunity of gained wisdom while, you know, also having to embrace loose skin.

I mean, there's just things that come with it. But they're also, I think, you know, for me, you know, how we relate to the issue is the issue. It really, and so as we shift how we hold things, that then sets out what our experience will be. How, you know, and what we believe, in a sense, is what we create. And so really that idea of, you know, not wanting to miss out on being in a state of celebration for all that we are by chasing all that we're not. You know, it's my middle daughter Scout said to me one day, I want to quit wasting time focusing on all that's wrong with me and missing out on celebrating all that I am. Wow.

It's incredible. And that is kind of the truth of it. And, you know, what's interesting is I think at each stage of our lives, not just as we get older, I think at each stage we can fall into that compare and despair, fall into those places of, you know, micro-focusing on all that we find that's wrong, as opposed to stepping back and seeing the whole picture of who we are, the beauty of our uniqueness. There's a really incredible scene in the film that builds and builds,

and it's silent, I think, where your character is, she's looking at her appearance, she's kind of getting ready for a date, she's looking at her appearance in the mirror, and she has so much rage that she almost takes that out on her on her face on her appearance could could you connect with that in any way oh I mean for me that is one of the most kind of heart-wrenching moments because she's so close to escaping this self-imposed prison that she's in. And I think on some level, we've all had that moment of looking in the mirror, getting dressed, just wanting to change one little thing. And then we change that one thing.

And then it's just, and it snowballs into this thing that is, you know, in this case, it's absolute self-loathing and self-destruction. And and it's it's it you know, it was brutal to shoot and we did many, many takes for each of those sections. But yet I think it's probably one of the most relatable. And again, not for just women, but for men and women alike. Let's bring in another comment here. We've got so many. Linda says, it's difficult to come to terms with the shape that's changed very little, but now seems to be very loosely wrapped. She says, I'm 76 years old, and the same shape I was in my 20s. Now, sadly, the skin on my arms and across my midsection resembles a crepe bandage.

I was fine into my late 60s. But in the last two or three years, the rate of creeping creepiness has accelerated alarmingly. Would it be easier to bear if I no longer have my youthful figure? She says, hey, ho, I know I'm fortunate, just have to keep reminding myself. And it is that, isn't it? You know, we might, you might absolutely feel like yourself still, but things are, you know, changing and you don't have any choice that that's happening. I totally relate. And, you know, I totally relate and really appreciate what she's what she's brought forward. Because, again, it's when we just hyper focus, if we actually can catch

ourselves in the process of that dissection of what, what, you know, it's always like the idea of I really look at life as everything is happening for you, not to you. And through that lens of perception, and the same is true for what is occurring with the physical body. Like, yes, I don't have to like it. I can have a preference. I wish that the skin wasn't getting looser or a little crepey or so loosely wrapped. But is it really who I am? Is that what people really love or don't love? Is that what makes me valuable? That's the question we have to ask. And it isn't. It's very interesting to me that you feel this way, because obviously, you're an extremely beautiful woman. And you know, you've done all these incredible things

in your life people might expect that you would be uber confident about yourself no I think one of the biggest misperceptions you know even I've have done certain things you know using my body whether it's been in photographs you know or with things that have had nudity. And, and the perception was that I had this confidence that I was so comfortable that I, you know, and in fact, it was quite the opposite. This was kind of my way of helping me to have ownership over my body to feel more comfortable to not be in such self judgment. And I think, you know, in a way, this film, too, has offered me this opportunity on a personal level to kind of embrace those things by not being as afraid of people seeing it,

seeing my humanness, seeing the things that, you know, that I, you know, don't like. Believe me, there's moments in the film, you know, there's a nice shot from behind that's kind of low. I know the one you mean. And kind of makes me look even bigger than I am. And I'm like, but I'm okay, because I know that it's serving a greater purpose. Did you think when you were filming it, that this would mean that you would have to do interviews like this talking about your body?

I mean, I guess I didn't think too much about it. I guess I'm along with that. You know, I think I really try to just stay present. The truth is, I had no idea what people would think. I had no idea what people would think. I had no idea if this would work. I had no idea if it would all make sense. Obviously, my hope was that it would somehow resonate, that it would actually, you know, really be a part of, again, you know, not being the cultural shift, because I don't think it takes one thing, but being a part

of a more provocative conversation that allows us to move towards a greater gentility towards ourselves. Yeah. There's been a lot of talk. Can I say the O word? Oscar talk. Oh. What do you think? Do you listen to that? Do you let it get into your head? You know, the thing that is one of the gifts of being around for quite a while is being more comfortable receiving and enjoying when things are well, but also keeping right sized that, you know, it's lovely. I'm and really staying out of any expectations, but just really being in my gratitude and in my appreciation for whatever may unfold and whatever is meant to be, because it's not entirely in my hands. It's it not, you know, been an arena that I've been invited into before, even though I think there is some work I've done that I feel should have been part of the conversation. But no regrets and it's all good.

So whatever happens will be a plus. Well, I think you're absolutely brilliant in it. So but not that, you know, anything I say matters, but I think you were fantastic. I just want to talk to you briefly about money, because you've been seen as a bit of a trailblazer in the industry because you became the highest paid woman in the business when you received uh 12.5 million dollars a record fee for the for striptease do you obviously the the conversation has very much moved on from there hasn't it and we've we've seen a lot of um equality in pay discussions in more recent years did you know at that time that that that would that that was going to happen were you thinking i want to be the highest paid woman i you know at that time that that was going to happen? Were you thinking, I want to be the highest paid woman? You know what? I didn't think of it. For me, I didn't have a drive to have the mark of that in a sense of an ownership,

like that that's me. What I felt was this, that, that it was important that it happened. And it was more important to me that this was a part of creating a change for every, for every woman, you know, pay equity, it should be a non-issue. We shouldn't have to even be having the discussion. And, you know, I dancer, a stripper, that I, in a sense, was shamed for it. And so, look, we've come a long way, but we still have a ways to go. We need to get to the point where this is no longer the conversation. Yeah.

Demi, thank you so much. I just want to read you one more comment. Oh, good. I love these. Says, I could spend time trying to hide my wrinkles, thinning hair and saggy belly, but I choose not to. I choose to spend my time doing what makes me happy. And that's liberating. Isn't that beautiful?

That is, that is, that is, that those are beautiful words of wisdom. And that is really it. It's to me every day is, you know, trying to focus on what brings me joy, what's meaningful, memorable. And for me, what has what and is anchored in something that is very spiritual and connected on on a on a on a bigger level. To me, it's been fantastic to speak to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for having me on and sharing your time with me. So the substance is in cinemas now. Today, some of the women involved in a BBC documentary that exposed decades of serious sexual abuse allegations against Mohammed Al-Fayed, the former owner of luxury department store Harrods,

have said they're making a formal complaint to the General Medical Council. They say that when they begun working for the department store, they had to undergo medicals, including invasive sexual health tests. Well, this morning on Woman's Hour, we're hearing from the woman who was the catalyst for that documentary. Sophia Stone was a young woman when she got a job at Harrods working for Mohamed Al-Fayed. She alleges that she was groomed and then sexually assaulted by him. Decades after she left Harrods, Sophia told her husband, Keaton Stone, about her experiences.

Keaton was determined to help her and approached other women who'd worked there. The BBC has heard testimony from more than 20 female ex-employees who say the billionaire, who died last year at the age of 94, sexually assaulted or raped them. Since the documentary aired, there's been extensive media coverage of the accusations and questions over whether more should have been done to protect them. Harrods have said, we are utterly appalled by the allegations of abuse perpetrated by Mohamed Al-Fayed. These were the actions of an individual who was intent on abusing his power wherever he operated, and we condemn them in the strongest terms. Well, I spoke to Safaya and Keaton

yesterday, and I should mention that this interview does cover sexual assault that some listeners may find upsetting. I started by asking Sophia how things have been for her since the documentary was broadcast. So intense, so full on, overwhelming, and it's just blown up. And how many more poor other women, you know, who've obviously now just because of this documentary felt strong enough to come forward. And, you know, sad it's happened to them, but I hope it's given them the courage to come forward. Sophia, if you're able to, can you tell me a bit about what happened to you? You worked for Mohamed Al-Fayed at Harrods and you got the job when you were just 19.

I just turned 20 when I started working for him. He saw me on the shop floor and originally came as his walking partner. He walks past with a team of security, always had security in front and behind. And he saw me and he came over to me and started to chat. And then I got moved to a different department and he saw me and he came over to me and started to chat and then I got moved to a different department and he recognized me came up to me I don't know whether I should be but for now to say flattered that he recognized me as the chairman and since what's happened that makes me feel sick but he came up to me and was like hey what are you doing here and then he'd see me again on the shop floor and at that point he then sent his PA down to ask me to come and work for him so that's how it all began.

And can you tell us a bit about what happened? He asked me to come and work for him he he said he was going to make all my dreams come true. He said, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to be, I can make this happen. I'm here for you. I will look after you and you must trust me. But you mustn't talk to anyone else about me now that I come to work for you. And then just from then on, very quickly, it just turned into a sort of charade of abuse that just obviously in a nutshell, that was relentless. Absolutely relentless. Every day, practically something would happen and you know I felt like I couldn't get out of this hell because I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone I wasn't told anyone about this I think all my

friends and family thought I had this great job I was scared I'd seen him have people followed I'd seen what he can do I've seen him him shout at people. You know, I was just in this world of hell and I didn't know how to get out of it. Obviously, I was a lot younger than I am now. I was very naive. I feel I can use the word I didn't at the time know what grooming was. But now I completely, you know, I'm an older woman. I'm, you know, 56. I can see what he was doing to me. And he was sort of reeling me in at the beginning and saying, trust me, trust me, come to Papa.

You don't trust anyone else. You'll be safe. I wasn't safe. My God. I mean, just horrible. I think he just sort of broke me down. I was just a gibbering wreck. I became, by the time I left, I just had zero confidence,

was scared as hell, just didn't know really. I was a mess, utter mess. And you said you were afraid then to say what was happening to you. Yes, yes. I'd seen what he had done to other people. He told me I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone on the shop floor. I had an incident when someone had upset me. Someone in the shop floor came up to the chairman's office and upset me because they were being, I don't know what happened. Anyway, I got upset. Mohammed saw that person was fired.

I didn't want to be in that situation where I was, you know, a catalyst to someone losing their job and career. I had this supposedly brilliant job. And if I left, I mean, what do I say to people? How do I get some money? I need to pay the rent. I've got to live. I have to actually survive on my own. So I'm going to be cast out.

And is he going to say to someone that I'm never going to be? I mean, I don't know if I'm going to get another job, but I don't know. My confidence was destroyed. When did you decide to tell Keaton then what had happened? And had you kept it a secret all that time? Yeah, it had been something that when I finally, finally left, and I think I was having some kind of, no one seemed to notice, but I swear I was having some kind of no one seemed to notice but I swear I was having some kind of breakdown I I thought I need to put this hide get this push it deep down inside I don't want to talk about

this ever again I never want anyone to ever make me feel like this again no man is ever going to make me feel as bad as that so I pushed it behind put it inside me and just thought but just get yourself strong and carry on with your life. But it's obviously still in there, isn't it? Still. But when you told me, you didn't, Sophia didn't mean to tell me, want to tell me. I was just, you know, she'd been in this job for quite a while,

front of house reception, because of course, when she left Fayed, then she was never ever going to work close one-on-one with you know in close proximity to one man ever again so you know she was having a little look around see what else might be out there and i said oh i'll you know give you a cb a bit of a spruce and it was that's how it all came out because at the bottom of the cv when there's other kind of entries you know even for kind of temporary jobs etc she had bullet points about the information about the job about this particular about you know there was just a little line harrods and not much else you know i was kind of curious about that of course and could have long story short when i kind of asked her about it um you know it's it

slowly came out that she'd worked for the chairman there. When I went away and judged that CV, it occurred to me, hold on, the chairman at that time was fired. I thought that was amazing. I thought that was wow. That's that's that's brilliant. Wow. Let's let's make a thing of that. So I kind of, you know, rewrote the CV and made a big old big old singing you know all dancing fact of that right at the top i was the personal assistant to the former chairman of the world's most prestigious store mohammed al-fayed etc of course and then and now that's how this whole thing started from when i then took that to sophia thinking i've done this brilliant job and she's gonna be very thankful to

me and it's gonna be great she absolutely burst into tears seeing me seeing his name right across i just went what have you done i was just like paul keaton just thought i was being yeah crying you know i always remember the reaction i mean you're just the goosebumps you're shaking you should get it off get it off get it off why don't you put him on there get him off and then she was just absolutely you know hysterical crying ran upstairs so you don't you put him on there? Get him off. And then she was just absolutely hysterical, crying, ran upstairs. So you don't have to be, you know, the greatest detective of all time to work out there's something very, very wrong there. And there we go. That's where the whole genesis was from. And that was in 2018, wasn't it?

So that was a while between then and when you started to think about making a documentary about this. So how did that go from you finding out Keaton to then pursuing other people who may have been affected? Well, this was never about a documentary, obviously, in the first instance. This was a very personal, you know, self-motivated investigation i'm i you know i have you know not ashamed to say i'm you know autistic and adhd and of course i the blinkers were on as soon as i found out this and i just dove down that rabbit hole and this was my fiancee at the time now wife and i was absolutely furious and so i off i went and and um so he started investigating it Sophia gave me the first couple of names of people that she suspected may also have been sadly abused contacted them of

course because Sophia's my wife they they trusted me and they because I realized obviously I'm a I'm just some random guy you know who's going to talk to a man about this kind of thing but because of Sophia being my wife or fiance at the time they felt reassured that they could tell me they did then they would tell me about their friends who they were worried about and it just got you know snowballed and snowballed so that was going on from 2018 until 2023 and I just built up this um you know amassed this great wealth of evidence statements names screenshots documents photos everything I've got in my kind of archive on this and spoke to so many poor women all across the world. It's just horrendous and unbelievable how far it does go around the globe.

And yeah, so in 2023 is when I took it to the BBC. I wonder what you thought though, Sophia, because you'd been keeping this to yourself for such a long time. And then suddenly it's beginning to be exposed and there are more and more women with allegations similar to yours. So what did that feel like, making it so public? It's been really hard. I can't lie. But it needed to be done and it had to be done and I had to be strong. And I'm still getting emotional looking at me,

but, you know, this is something that was vital that we did. And I had, we're having the support of Keaton and his love and his strength well he's given me his strength to be able to do this and that's how I've been able to get through because it has been intense and relentless but it is hopefully worth it and you know there's that amazing um thing that's been on your mind lately hasn't there that you can't stop thinking about as well this is just something that he said to me when we are flying back from a particularly bad trip in Paris he he gave me a book on Harrods um he had all these books on Harrods done and he presented it to me and I was I think I was trying to leave it was just before I left actually so it was

towards the end of um my time working for him and I was just going I've got to leave I've got to leave it was just before I left actually so it was towards the end of um my time working for him and I was just going I've got to leave I've got to leave you know and he was going well you're going to give this book you're going to give this book to your or you're going to tell your grandchildren about me one day and tell them what a monster I am what a bad man I am and he was sort of it was it was so weird because I was like crying and going, and he looked really upset. And it was so weird. And now this has happened. You did go to the police, didn't you?

Absolutely, yes. I went to the police. 2020 was during COVID. I had to give my statement. I had to go and do a recorded statement a video statement during Covid so that was really weird because obviously you had to go in on your own and do it and yeah so gave my 31 page statement and my did my long video call so. And you approached Harrods as well what's their response been and have you received any apology or

compensation well we there was a if I was with a lawyer first of all before this new team who've come on and just been absolutely incredible but before that there was another lawyer involved and he approached Harrods so that was 2019 they were first approached. And to be honest, for the first, for those few years, they were not interested. They batted it away. Batted it away. They didn't believe it.

Disbelieving. They wrote quite a, you know, when I say them, they have their reputational lawyers, of course. Their reputation lawyers wrote this on their behalf, I guess, this letter. And I found it quite dismissive of Sophia. Yeah, I was already compiling accounts and evidence and documents and everything then. But with that one particular letter that was written, just how it was and how dismissive and dismissive of Sophia's potential and her future and almost blaming her for not coming

forward before because now they can't speak to Mohammed because he's ill, they said. That then set me off. And here we are now. So, you know. So what would you both like to see happen now? Overall and long-term, idealistically, with just as a woman, I just want this people to be so aware that things like this do go on. And if they see even a glimpse or think it might be happening, it's got to be outed and it's got to be it's got to be this has got to be. It's just not going to happen anymore.

I just think us women have got to be strong. The Me Too movement really helped with that. And it's just got to go a bit further. It hasn't quite got there yet. This has got to stop. That was Sophia and Keaton speaking to me yesterday. And if you've been affected by anything that you've heard in this interview, you can get help and resources on the Women's Hour website. I can read a bit more from Harrods' statement now. They say, we are utterly appalled by the allegations of abuse perpetrated by Mohamed El Fayed. We acknowledge that during this time as a business, we failed our employees who were his victims, and for this, we sincerely apologise. The Harrods of today is a very different organisation to the

one owned and controlled by ElFayed between 1985 and 2010. It's one that seeks to put the welfare of our employees at the heart of everything they do. They go on to say this is why, since new information came to light in 2023 about historic allegations of sexual abuse by Al-Fayed, it's been our priority to settle claims in the quickest way possible, avoiding lengthy legal proceedings for the women involved. This process is still available for any current or former Harrods employees. They say please go to the

website response.harrods.com for further information. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Information. Next, how women cracked Wall Street, the iconic hub of New York's finance district, is the subject of my next guest's book. In She-Wolves, writer and historian Paulina Brenn tells the inside story of these women from the 60s up until 9-11.

And Paulina joins me on the line from New York. Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you, Kylie. It's nice to be here. So this book is very detailed about the personal experiences of women at the time. How easy was it for you to find out about them? Oh, it was not that easy, I have to say. On the one hand, it's a very secretive world. And on the other hand, what really shocked me, and I'm used to the idea that if you write about women, it's rather hard to find sources. But what shocked me about writing the story of the women who scaled Wall Street from the 1960s through 9-11 was that they barely have a footprint. If you try to Google them, you're not going to find them except for one famous woman, Mickey Siebert from Wall Street. So that was a shocker. And I suppose the third challenge,

but also what sort of opens up this book is that I am not a finance person. I did not know anything about Wall Street when I approached this subject. So in a sense, it's very accessible what I wrote because it's really for people like me, in addition to people who have that experience in finance, just opening up this world that is really unknown to most of us. And we said that you started this looking at this from the 60s, but there were women on Wall Street earlier than this, weren't there? Absolutely. Absolutely. There were waves of women. And what always happened, for example, you had in the 1920s, you had female brokers, some, obviously, we're talking about a handful here, or a dozen, let's say. They're always there when women have money to invest.

So, of course, during the 1920s, when everybody's investing in the stock market, there was an opportunity for profit. So all of these sort of ladies salons, these brokerage rooms just for women, run by women, which really did look like nice bourgeois sofas and so forth. And you could just sit there and invest your money. And of course, after the crash, that disappeared. Then you saw a little bit of that in the 1950s in America, of course, because America was thriving after World War II.

People, again, including women, had money to invest. But you really start to see women coming to Wall Street other than sort of the rare woman showing up and battling her way through. Really, you start to see that in the late 60s. You mentioned Miki Sibbitt, Muriel Sibbitt. She was someone who really stood out for me in the book. Can you tell us briefly about her? Yes. So she's the one, if you've heard of anybody, it's going to be Muriel, she was known as Mickey Siebert. And she, on the one hand, she's an iconoclast. On the other hand, her trajectory really did mimic that of other women coming right after her. So she arrived in New York in 1954 in a beat up Studebaker with $500 in her

pocket. And she had to find a job. She'd actually quit university. So she was in a college dropout. She lied about that. She got herself a job at a sort of working with a teletype machine in a research department. And research department means these places where research analysts would basically have a sector, an industry, and they analyzed everything about it, all the companies, and then they recommended certain stocks. So she started as an assistant, sort of just running between a Teltype machine and to the research analysts, giving them these messages. And she, like these other women, she watched, she listened, she learned. And there came a moment where when the research analysts were doing well,

they were able to sort of shirk some of their work onto the underlings. And the great train industry expert didn't believe that aviation would be a thing. And so in the sense of an industry. And so he gave that to Mickey Siebert and she became the great aviation sector analyst. And so she was known throughout Wall Street in the 1960s. And she was hopping from one little firm to another because that's the other thing. The way these women found a foothold was because Wall Street looked so different then. It was quaint. It was small. It was provincial on some level. You had the big firms, but you had hundreds of little brokerage houses. So she was jumping from one to the other, always getting a promotion, always getting a salary boost. But she was out-salaried by men no matter what, significantly so.

And she'd finally had enough, and somebody recommended that she apply for a seat on the New York Stock Exchange in order to start her own firm and grow it. And she said, no, that's impossible. But then she read the Constitution. It did not bar women. They had not even thought of that in 1792. And so she applied for a seat. It was it was very difficult getting the seat, but she got it. And January 1st, 1968, first woman to have a seat on the New York Stock Exchange.

And the great thing is that she wanted to advertise her company as she was the first woman of the New York Stock Exchange. And the chairman of the exchange said, no, no, no, we're not having that, because by definition, my wife is the first lady of the Stock Exchange. So she had to do away with that. But she was the first woman, but she did not trade on the floor, because she knew, she said, I'd have have so many enemies it's out of the question actually trade on the floor was 10 years later she also managed to get some bathroom facilities as well didn't she on the new york socket very interesting um what's what's the situation now has has it improved at all is it is it uh? I'm guessing the answer is no.

I think your guess is correct. So my story, in a sense, ends 9-11 in 2001. But I do, of course, comment on what comes after. And of course, this is a question I asked all the women that I interviewed. And inevitably, they would roll their eyes and say, yes, there are so many of us now. But you look at the absolute top echelon, very few women. And it's true. It's about 12%, let's say. And so that's the problem. We're, of course, seeing it replicated in Silicon Valley, you know, I mean, with Bitcoin and so forth. I mean, it's just all of that.

It's actually almost worse. It's really returning to that playbook of the 1950s. I wish we could talk more because there are very interesting characters and stories in your book. Paulina Bren, thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much. And Paulina's book, Wolves is out now. Now today, the charity Women for Women released findings which offer a rare glimpse into the experience of women in conflict zones. More than 600 million women around the world are currently living through war and globally we're experiencing the highest number of violent conflicts since 1945,

when World War II drew to a close. Well, this morning, Sakiya Starmer has arrived in New York to discuss the mounting conflict in the Middle East at the United Nations. Thousands of people are fleeing their homes in Lebanon due to Israeli strikes. Over 500 people have been killed. About 60,000 people have been evacuated from northern Israel because of near daily attacks by Iran-backed Hezbollah. All Women for Women will present their findings to the UN today and joining me to discuss them now is the charity's international director

Sara Bokut. Sara, thank you very much for your time here on Women's Hour. So you spoke to 6,500 women in war zones. How did you even go about that? Thanks for having me. Well, Women for Women International have worked in conflict affected countries for more than 30 years. So we have a lot of experience in these places. And our approach has always been ask women, what do women want? And then we change our programs so that we are addressing the needs that they tell us. And that's how we approached surveying six and a half thousand women across 14 countries. And I think what's really interesting and unique about the way that we did this is this is not teams in the UK or in the US saying, what should we ask women?

This is change agents, what we call change agents. So women who are affected by conflict themselves working with us and with other women's rights organisations to say, this is what we need to ask. This is who we need to ask. This is how we need to ask it. And through that process, as you say, we've spoken to more than six and a half thousand women. And what's really important with this is that these are women that other agencies and other policymakers don't usually get to. You know, these are women living in live conflicts. These are women living in very rural areas that are affected by conflict, very marginalised women. And so the experience that we have had over the last 30 years and

really working directly with change agents who've been trained in advocacy was how we got to that many people. I imagine that many of the women will be really pleased that they're actually being asked and having their voices heard. Yes, absolutely. One of the things that came out strongly in the survey was either women hadn't been asked or when they had been, they felt it was very much a tick box exercise. They weren't told what the impact of their statements or their contributions were. They have no idea what's going to happen with those statements. And they generally know that women are not the ones constructing the questions or the consultations themselves.

So absolutely women felt very pleased, A, that they were being asked, but felt very secure in the fact that they knew it was women who had constructed the consultation themselves. 600 million women living through war is absolutely astonishing. What countries did you cover in this study? So 14 countries. So the six countries that Women of Women International have offices in. So Afghanistan, South Sudan, Iraq. I'm going to forget all of them, but a wide range. But we also have what we call our conflict response fund.

So it's how we work in countries where we don't have an office space and through partners. So places like Burkina Faso were also included. So a range, but obviously not all of the countries that are currently affected by conflict. You said you used people who were kind of with them, but it must have been difficult gaining access to those women's lives. Again, I think it comes down to the trust that we've built up with women over the years, but also the way we approached it. We were very open and transparent. This has

been created for women in your, by women in your community, for women in your community. And in lots of cases, those change agents who have been trained by Women for Women International and other rights-based organisations helped us conduct the research and the survey. So you've got women who are speaking to other women as well which I think definitely has helped. So what were the experiences then that you heard about? So obviously with this many women in this many countries a lot of information but I think there's a couple of key ones that I want to talk about and the first is around access to aid.

So only 25% of the women that we surveyed have received any kind of essential relief or recovery aid. So only 25% of the women that we surveyed have received any kind of essential relief or recovery aid. So that basically means these millions of women are not getting aid. And that figure is even lower in Afghanistan. And that's a place with the most serious women's rights crisis in the world. And the number of women who have access aid there is only 10%. Shocking. The second thing I want to talk about is about displacement. We talked about how many women and people are being displaced through all these conflicts. 64% of the women that we surveyed cited displacement as a problem that women face.

And I guess unsurprisingly, in somewhere like Sudan, that number was 71%. And then the final thing I think really importantly is about violence against women. And violence against women is always a topic that we hear about when we speak to women. And that came across very strongly again in this survey, with 96% of women reporting that violence impacts women in their communities. And specifically, the intimate partner violence is the main issue that they face. And 71% of women that we surveyed said that it was the most prevalent form of violence that they experienced. So a much higher figure than the one in three that we'd be used to hearing about in terms of domestic violence in the UK. When I was reading some background to this, the most remarkable thing that I saw was the optimism, the positivity.

Just tell me about that. Yeah, thank you. I'm so glad you talked about that. I think that some of the listeners will be really surprised at that as well. I'm not. I've worked in this space for a long time. Women are so resilient. There's always hope. But despite all of these awful things that we've been talking about, 81% of women that we surveyed said that they had hope for their future. And what is really remarkable is that in Afghanistan, that figure was 87%. And considering the rollback of women's rights there, I think that's really incredible. But I think it's also important to mention that those levels of hope are different in all of the countries. So in particular, women in Ukraine, their hope seems to be waning. So women that we

surveyed who are refugees outside of Ukraine, 79% of them said that they thought that their situation would worsen. So there is still a lot of work to be done. But hope is something that we speak to women about a lot. And that resilience that you often see women have, I think, turns into hope. And it's a very powerful driver for change. Obviously, this is being presented to the UN today. It's obviously extremely important information that you found out. But what would you like to see change? Yeah, thank you. And so at the heart of everything that we do as Women for Women International is leadership and the voices of women. And that's exactly why we put this together.

And really what we want is for other actors, other governments, policymakers to read, first of all, all of this research and then take action. And there are loads of different ways that this can happen. What we really want is more women's participation. There's a load of ways that people can support that. Funding, of course, is really important, and specifically funding for women's rights organisations so that they can drive change, but also providing resources, tools, training, as well as connecting women to each other,

women's rights organisations to each other, to support movement building. We really want more women involved in making change to the challenges that they face. So involved in prospects for peace, essentially? Yeah, absolutely. We know that that makes a massive difference. Women have a fundamental right to take part in decisions that affect them.

But it's not just the right thing, it's the smart thing to do. Because we know statistically that if women are meaningfully involved in peace processes, peace agreements are 20% more likely to last more than two years and 35% more likely to last more than 15 years. So we need women's participation. We know, of course, that the needs of women in Afghanistan compared to the needs of women in Ukraine are hugely different. You know, such variety across those countries. Is the work specific enough?

I mean, again, I think that's why we want to speak directly to women in lots of different contexts. And I think what this survey has shown, and we hope people will listen to, is that it is possible to reach women and hear about their specific needs in countries. I think the other thing that we're seeing is that the themes are the same across the board. Yes, obviously the interventions in those contexts will be different, but the themes are the same. What women are saying are the same. This must be quite an exciting day for you too,

when the work that you've been focusing on is being presented to the UN. Thank you. It really, really is. I was just talking to a colleague about how seeing all of this work and the fact that more than 6,500 women's voices are going to be heard today and over the next year and a half where we have lots of plans to really get this in front of people. It is really exciting and I'm so pleased that Women's Hour are also shining a light on it. So thank you so much. Pleasure to shining a light on it so thank you so much Pleasure to have you here, Sarah thank you so much for your time

I just want to take you back to some of those comments we were asking you for your views on how you celebrate your body as you get older it's because of that film that Demi Moore is starring in which very closely looks at body image I've got this comment here

this person says loving the conversation with demi on aging and body acceptance i'm a curvilicious black woman for my 61st birthday i gave myself the gift of boudoir shots what a lovely liberating experience up next becoming a model for a life drawing class i'm learning how to embrace the body changes that life and menopause have given me. This comment here from Madeline. Madeline says, as you get older, just wear clothes that you love and make you feel good. I'm 64 and recently had the very strange experience of being interviewed in the street by an Instagram fashion company. In the past month, the one minute film they put up has had over 2 million views, over 360,000 likes, literally thousands of comments. Most of these are from young people. And one of the things they say more than anything else is she's so real.. Ageing can be a shock. I'm 64, she says, and regularly taking

action is a great solace. That's from Celia. And this one, I'm nothing special, just an average woman. I turned 47 last week. I'm fairly slim. My body shows all the marks of ageing. I think that my body looks fine, but then I think most women look great. Thanks for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Helena Bonham Carter, and for BBC Radio 4, this is History's Secret Heroes, a new series of rarely heard tales from World War II. None of them knew that she'd lived this double life. They had no idea that she was Britain's

top female codebreaker. We'll hear of daring risk takers. What she was offering to do was to ski in over the high Carpathian mountains in minus 40 degrees. Of course it was dangerous, but danger was his friend. Helping people was his blood. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like

warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.