Woman's Hour - Denise Gough, Gymnastics post birth, Endometriosis tribunal

Episode Date: January 22, 2026

NB: The music in this broadcast has been removed from the podcast for rights reasons.Anita Rani talks to double Olivier award winning actress Denise Gough about her latest role as Amy Fowler in a new play based on the famous western High Noon. She’ll be discussing how her character reflects the early feminist movement and what it’s been like to find her singing voice for the first time in 30 years.Elite British gymnast Alice Kinsella won Olympic bronze in the team event at Tokyo 2020 and is a two-time European champion. Now she’s seeking to become the first British artistic gymnast to return to elite competition after giving birth. Returning to elite sport after having a baby is becoming more visible in some areas – but in gymnastics, it’s still extremely rare. Anita talks to Alice alongside Julie Gooderick, a sports scientist based at the University of Kent, who is closely studying Alice’s return. We speak to Sanju Pal who has won her high court Employment Appeal Tribunal against the global consulting firm where she worked for 10 years. She has endometriosis and claimed she was unfairly dismissed. Sanju Pal and Emma Cox, Chief Executive of Endometriosis UK, joins Anita to discuss the understanding of endometriosis in the workplace, and what this judgement could mean for other women. The BRIT Award nominations were out last night and women dominate. Best Pop Act is an all women shortlist: RAYE, Lily Allen, Lola Young, Olivia Dean and JADE. Lola Young and Olivia Dean have the most nominations, both up for Artist of the Year, alongside Lily Allen, JADE, Little Simz and PinkPantheress. Nearly two thirds of the nominations feature women as solo artists or in mixed gender group - the highest representation yet. So why are women riding high in the music industry at the moment? Anita talks to Roisin O'Connor, Music Editor at The Independent.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Corinna Jones

Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. The extraordinarily talented Denise Goff is here. She's currently on stage in the West End in High Noon, an adaptation of the classic Western. I'll be speaking to her very soon. Shunjou Paul has won her High Court Tribunal appeal against her ex-employer, who she says failed to recognise the impact that endometriosis had on her life,

her health and ability to work. So could this be a game changer for workplace protections for women with endometriosis? We'll be hearing her story. And she won a bronze medal at the Tokyo Olympics. And now, after having a baby, gymnast Alice Kinsella is returning to elite sport. Now, every woman's body is different and lifestyle, no doubt, plays a huge part. But I'm interested to hear how eager some of you were to start exercising. or training again postpartum

and how able you were. We're not all Olympians, but maybe you love to run or swim or play a sport. Did your body play ball with your will to want to move? Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website or you can WhatsApp me on 0700-100-444.

And of course, followers on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And the Brit nominations are out and women dominate this year's list of nominees. But first, Denise Goff is a double Olivier Award winner. Her theatre performances have been described as mesmeric, extraordinary and awe-inspiring. And that's before we get to her performance of the villainous, Dedra Miro, in the Star Wars spin-off and all her latest role as Amy Fowler

in one of the most famous westerns of them all, High Noon. This play, High Noon, is based on the 1952 Oscar-winning film. When we first meet Amy, she's getting married to Will Kane, the marshal of the town. As Amy is a Quaker and against violence, he gives up his badge to go away and start a new life with her. However, only moments after they marry,

we hear that Frank Miller, who Will put behind bars and was due to hang, has been released and is going to arrive on the noon train seeking his revenge. Here's a clip from the play when Will realizes that he has to stay and face his nemesis, and Amy is shocked by his reaction.

Where are you going? Do you know how I feel about going? How puffed up men get when they got him on their hips, how they start talking all poetic about the smell of the oiled leather and how the trigger his light to the touch. You see a man the way he strokes his gun. You'd think it was his girl or something. It has a heft. I can't hardly breathe. Let me catch my breath. I swore off hate and anger. I'm a quaker. I quake before God. Well, wives and husbands are supposed to find a way to figure things out. Certainly on their wedding day, you're making me feel foolish like I misjudged you.

Billy Crud up there as Will Kane and my guest, Denise Gough, as Amy Fowler. Denise, what's it like listening to yourself? Oh, God, the worst. And also it's changed a little since we did it like that. So hearing her so panicked, she's less panicked now. Were you critiquing yourself whilst you were listening to that? When I was thinking that scene, you see, Billy Crudup and I, we run that scene every single night before.

It was the hardest scene to make work for us. And so, well, we're sitting on a carrot, like we're on a table that is turned into a buckboard and pretending we're riding out into the frontier. And so it's a lot to get yourself to believe. And then it's a new place. So the script was kind of in motion a lot. And we have to tell a lot about these two people in that one scene.

And so thankfully, I'm working with someone as brilliant as him. So we run it as part of our little routine every night. And so hearing it, that's from a while ago. So now I think, God, we've worked. I'm really proud of our work on it. You are brilliant. It's brilliant. I watched it the other night.

A huge fan of both you and Billy Cridup, and you're fantastic, and I really enjoyed it. But tell us more about the character you play, Amy Fowler. I mentioned that she's a Quaker. She's a woman of conviction. How do you approach playing someone like her? Well, in the film it was Grace Kelly, and she was very, very young, like 22. So it was obviously I'm not that. But it was very important to me that she, it's just as important to be somebody.

who's an advocate for non-violence as it is to be somebody who has to, you know, do what he feels that he has to do. So I felt like I had a responsibility not to make her just a whining wife. It's very important to her. She has reasons why she doesn't believe in violence. And at that time, if you think about a woman in her position to decide to be a Quaker in a mostly, I think, Christian evangelical time.

That's quite a brave act. And I see her as a woman at the beginning of feminism also. She's constantly questioning throughout the play. Why does she have to give up everything she believes in in order to stand by her man? She loves Will, but she loves the community of man just as much. And I find that really interesting about her. There's some really good big debatable themes in this.

And I did get into a debate about it afterwards. It's a story about love, courage, cowardice, and it's asking big questions about who will stand up when you need people to stand up with you and who won't and their choices for doing that. Themes that still resonate today. Yeah, totally. And also what you are prepared to do for the ones you love.

And I think there's something deeply, something that was really interesting for me was the idea of having to take up arms for the people you love and being forced into situations because as the play goes on, you see that happening. And so, I mean, we're seeing it all over the world right now. What are we prepared to do for our communities? What is community?

When the chips are down, are you part of a community? I'm finding certainly for myself, I mean, the theatre is my number one community, but I feel finding community at the moment. an inner world that seems very fractured is deeply important, you know. And so I think for me, what Amy is trying to do is create a community. But unfortunately, somebody comes in to threaten that. And, yeah, she's forced to do something else.

Oh, yeah, but you'll have to go and see it to find out. She's also, what I really liked about her and respect about her is the great level of integrity, this woman has. And I particularly enjoyed the scene and the relationship she has with the other female character, Helen Ramirez. It just seems so adult that these two women, Helen Ramirez is,

she runs the bar, another woman, she's Mexican, and she was originally Will's lover. And the relationship between the two women is really interesting. Yeah, and it's complex and it should be. I mean, there's a version where it becomes like girl power and you see these two women become best friends. and I thought that was really important to me that that didn't happen.

And also I feel like there's a question too about what it is to be a woman of color in that environment. And what Helen has had to go through and withstand is different than what Amy has to go through and withstand. And so you have two women coming at the world from two very different places. And for Amy, it's very easy for Amy to, you know, it's really obvious that Helen thinks the most important thing is you stand by your man. Amy finds that really frustrating to be told that by another woman. But then she understands by the end of that scene, why Helen would say that to her and encourage her to do that. But I feel it's one of those great things of having two women from two very different worlds

existing together on stage without making it into something, simplistic. It's a knotty, difficult, I think, like a modern word is triggering, right? They're triggering each other in that scene. But I really enjoyed that scene because, like you say, it could have been like, oh, and they become best friends, or they just don't want to talk because she's just so wounded by the fact that she was her husband's ex-lover, but it's just so mature that they can look each other eye-ball to eyeball and have it. And also, Amy is not, we talked a lot, Theodore, the director, Thea Sharak and I, we talked a lot. about Amy is not somebody who's jealousness. Like it's not about, oh, she was with my men. We wanted to take it away from all of that. That makes women far smaller than we actually are.

And I feel like, yeah, that scene represents the idea that you can have all these feelings about another woman, but still stick with a conversation where both women are changed by the end of it. And that's what we aimed to do. And I hope that's what we've done. The other thing that absolutely delighted me about this is that you sing. And you sing Bruce Springsteen and you have got a magnificent voice. Thank you very much.

I've never sung on stage. So it was really exposing and frightening for me. I think that singers, we've talked just before about Camila Sullivan, who's a great inspiration to me. She was one of the first singers I saw that had such emotion in her voice. And I come from a background where from the age of eight to like 13, I trained to be a soprano, an opera. Soprano and I hated it because if you don't hit the note, you failed.

And that's such a difficult thing for me to get my head. From the age of eight? Yeah, in Ireland, in the West of Ireland, you go to singing classes, you know, and I had a singing teacher. And once a week I would go and I, you know, had my little clasped hands. So could that have been a different career path for you? I doubt it. I really hated it and I started smoking very young

so it ended and I didn't like how I felt when I sang So what was it like having to sing Or singing every night on stage? Well we did a workshop of the play Months before we actually started doing the play And it started with just singing one line And then the MD

said maybe you can sing another line And then it just And then once we were in rehearsals Like three weeks in, Theo was like, maybe you can sing a song at the beginning. I was like, okay, and I kept opening myself up and saying yes to it because it has been incredibly good for my mental health, for my feelings about my voice, all of that.

It's been very healing for me to sing, actually. Yeah, and it was beautiful to hear you sing. And yeah, more. Please give us more. And singing Bruce Springfield. I'm really singing an album. Yeah, scared. Things that, you know, it's been healing.

And, you know, I feel like whenever I've seen, I've been very lucky. I saw you when you revisited your Olivier Award-winning play, People, Places and Things. And again, I could, just the experience of watching you in that is unbelievable. It's about a woman in rehab, battling addiction, and you've spoken about your own dependence on alcohol and drugs quite openly. But what happened and what was it like revisiting it? So the first time I did the play, I didn't tell anyone. Even when I auditioned for it, I didn't tell people. I was in recovery by that point, but I didn't tell anyone.

one, I didn't want to sell my story to get apart. And also I wasn't, I hadn't done enough of the deep work to be able to handle speaking about it openly, especially like this, you know. But the second time I, when I revisited a couple of years ago, I've done a lot of work on this. I, you know, I don't, I don't think that you have to speak about your experience. But I do think that if you do speak about experience to make sure you've got a lot of support. And somebody once said to me, you, you share from the wisdom, not the wound. And I think the first time around, I would have, if I had been open about it, I would have been sharing from the wound, which would have made me very vulnerable. Yeah. But the last time I, I mean, I'm nearly, well, I'm nearly 19 years

sober. And. Well done. Thank you. But also, I think there's a lot of shame around addiction. You know, And it's not helpful from me to feel shame about it. So it was part of owning my story, you know. When you get interviewed the way that I do a lot and you're trying to obfuscate, that gets really tiring, you know? You just want to go, oh, okay, look, this is what happened in my life. And this, like telling your own story is very empowering as long as, like I said, you're doing it from a place of having done some healing.

But it was important for me to reclaim my life, you know. What's it like once you've said it once it's out there? It's so much easier because now I can talk about it. And also, I think if I, when I was in my addiction and in the darkness, if I had heard someone sharing about it, then it gives maybe some, I'm loath to use the word hope, but, you know, faith that things can be different. Yeah.

No, I think it does. I mean, it's hard work. It's hard work to overcome, as anyone will tell you, to overcome addiction. But for me, it was very, with all the work I've done, I understand deeply that my addiction was a solution for a while. You know, I'm very grateful. A solution to what? Well, I think when you have lived how I've lived and had the life that I had when I was young, when I first came to London

you know it was not an easy time You were incredibly young as well weren't you? I had just turned 16 So I had run away from home when I was 15 And then I was 16 when I got here And by that point I had You know I was deep into it

And so You know It always becomes the headline of a story of Talking about my homelessness And it can feel a bit ick but I but my

story is that you know I used to beg in the street and pick up cigarette butts and that was how I lived

and if I had had to do that clean and sober I don't know if I'd have been very safe I mean being drunk and high

kind of numbed me enough it wasn't that I thought everything was great it was just I didn't I didn't feel the darkness until I was able to. And, you know, there's a brilliant doctor, Gabor Mattoe,

who says he never asks why the addiction, he asks why the pain, you know, and I would, yeah, I would agree with that. Why did you run away from home? So my early years, I was in a convent school, Catholic school, and I'd had a pretty grim time with a couple of nuns there. And then when I was very, very young, from the age of 13 to 14, I was groomed, which resulted then in sexual abuse.

And that sort of thing, I mean, there was nothing anybody could do because I didn't know what it was. Grooming is so toxic. It really confuses and breaks the child's ability to know who. who to trust and most importantly if they can trust themselves. And so I believed deeply that all of that was me, was my fault. And I grew up in a deeply Catholic environment. And so I learned things there too.

And so I wasn't able to ask for help. I didn't know how because I thought I was the problem. And so the only thing I could do was run, it felt like. And so that's what I did. And fend for yourself. and, you know, have all the addiction issues that you've spoken about. And then you've also said that acting saved your life. So when did the gift of acting?

I think that that happened in a school play. I was in Annie when I was like 10 or something. And of course I wanted to play Annie, but I didn't get that part. I got the part of Miss Hannigan. But you're over at course. I'm so over it. I got the part of Ms. Hannigan, which was fitting. And I remember I brought a cigarette onto this.

stage and I had a little bottle of vodka. Not real, obviously. But I remember going onto the stage and all the little kids, I mean, I was a little kid, but I remember looking at the little kids in the orphanage and suddenly they all forgot what they had to say. And so I just started talking. In character, I made up, and I remember the feeling in the room and it felt really good. But later on, what happened? I mean, there was a... still no way to be an actress. Nobody was an actress that I knew or I had no connection to it. I didn't know what drama school was or anything. But then when I was in London early, I would walk up and down Shaftesbury Avenue. And so that's where I would ask. I didn't ever sit down and ask

people for money, but I would approach people and ask them for money. And I would pick up the cigarette butts and I would stand outside theatres and think, how do I get in there? How do I get in there? I remember when I was a year sober walking down Chatsbury Avenue and looking up and there was a poster of me outside the theatre. What does that feel like? I remember my friend Nomad de Muzwani, who was in the show, she saw it happen. I sort of collapsed.

I had like a physical reaction to seeing that because it was like I could also see the little bald girl because I always shaved my head. Sheenade O'Connor was a huge North Star for me because I remember her talking about abuse on TV, I remember her being gaslighted and remember her power. And so the first thing I did was shave my head and it kept me safe, I believe. And I remember looking at the poster of me and then just having this connection to that little girl.

And it's only when you get much older that you realize what a little girl you were. Like I had no idea. I thought I knew everything and I was a baby. I meet 16 year olds now and I think, oh my God. God, what was I doing? And yeah, I had so many kind of magic moments happened to get me. I got a full scholarship to drama school and all these miracles. And then as soon as I was able to, like it was four years into my career that I got sober.

And that's when things really started getting juicy. Yeah. And we love watching you in everything. We haven't even been it. I'm just going to mention them because you're also in 8. which is for Hawk with Claire Foy. And you're in Andor, which is, yeah, I'm so proud of that. Well, when I mentioned that you were coming on,

my WhatsApp groups just went bananas with, oh my God, you've got to ask about this, you've got to ask about that. But you'll just have to come back and talk to us again. Anytime. Thank you for sharing so openly and honestly. I really appreciate that. It's important. It's not my shame.

I shouldn't have to keep secrets. Absolutely not. Thank you so much. Denise Goff. And High Noon is on at the Harold Pinter. in London until the 6th of March and Hs for Hawke is in Cinemas from the 23rd of January. And I have to say that if you or someone you know

has been affected by anything that we've spoken about, that you can find information and support on the BBC Action Line website. Denise, thank you. Thank you so much. Next, elite British gymnast. Alice canseller. Alice won Olympic bronze in the team event at Tokyo 2020 and is a two-time European champion,

Now at 24 years old, she's seeking to become the first British artistic gymnast to return to elite competition after giving birth. Returning to elite sport after having a baby is becoming more visible in some areas, but in gymnastics, it's still extremely rare. This is a sport that plays very particular demands on the body, impact, precision, control in the air and safe landings. We know because we watch in awe. We're going to look at what it really means to try to make a comeback.

is on the line and with me in the studio I also have Julie Goodrick who's a sports scientist who is closely studying Alice's return, Julie's a lecturer in sports rehabilitation at the University of Kent where she's working on a research project following Alice's journey called Returning to Sport Postpartum

a case study of an elite gymnast. Let's speak to that elite gymnast. Alice welcome. Did you always want to make a comeback? Yes, it was always in my mind to make a comeback when we even thought about getting pregnant and having a baby. It was always there.

And how confident did you feel? I knew it was going to be a challenge and it's definitely a challenge. But I've always been up for challenges. So I'm very excited for this one. And I think it just makes my career journey even special. But you were always training even throughout your pregnancy, weren't you? Tell me a bit about that. So as soon as I found out I was pregnant, I stopped doing the gymnastic side of it,

but I kept on doing my S&C, which I really think helped me return back quicker than I expected post-birth. Let's bring Julie into this. Why is a return like Alice is considered so unusual? Why is she rare? Yeah, well, I think historically female athletes very much saw taking maternity leave and having a baby. is the end of their career. Yeah. And there just wasn't enough role models and examples of people doing it successfully.

And because of that, we didn't have scientific evidence to help support athletes through that journey. That is now changing. There's better infrastructures in place in terms of giving people financial support when they go on mid-career maternity leave. And the science around the return to sport postpartum is evolving. And we're still kind of growing that space and understanding exactly what we need to be doing as scientists to support athletes back to the their return to sport. So how did this happen? How did your paper come about? Did you hear that Alice was going to do this? Did you incident jump on it? Well, how? Yeah, so I have a lot of professional contacts within British gymnastics and I'm friends with Alice's Strength and Conditioning Coach Ben.

So the collaboration really came about through that and, you know, I discussed it with the wider team at British gymnastics who were very keen from the perspective of kind of understanding, you know, the best practice from their point of view to support Alice, but also to potentially support people that come behind her as well. you know, hopefully we can start developing some guidelines around return to sport postpartum for elite athletes and understand a bit more about best practice of how we actually do that. And it's not just strength and impact. Your research is also looking at sleep, almost, psychological factors.

Tell us more. Yeah, so my aim with this research, really, I always said I wanted it to be a very holistic overview of athlete process. And the reason for that is because nothing exists in isolation. You know, strength doesn't exist in its own world. It exists as part of psychology and hormone. profiles and everything else. So I wanted to track every aspect and the idea with the research really is to present that holistic process of how we actually get an athlete from postpartum into a successful return to sport. What's it like, Ellis, knowing that your body's being measured, that you're

being analysed. Is it reassuring or is it extra pressure? No, it's definitely reassuring. It's actually nice to know that I've got all of this support around me and yeah, I'm excited to see the outcome really. Yeah. What was it like the first day you went back to the gym? Like how long, I mean, obviously you are an elite athlete. Your body is in a completely different condition to most of us. And you were training throughout your pregnancy. Like how long after post-giving birth were you in the gym and what was it like both physically and mentally getting back? So I'd say four months post-birth I went back to doing S&C, so strength and conditioning. And then I'd say about another month or so. after that I started adding in a few gymnastics work. It was very strange because obviously I'm not used to having, well, the longest I normally would have off is about two weeks and I had to have nine months off, which is a very, very long time.

So it's obviously going to feel a bit different going back into the gym. But because I've been doing gymnastics for so long now, the muscle memory was always still there. So after I've done a couple of things, it just all felt normal really. Can we discuss sleep? because obviously you're training, but you're also caring for a newborn. So how does sort of tiredness shape,

sort of recovery and what you can realistically do? I think we got quite lucky with Parker because he's actually a really good sleeper. He's currently going through his four-month progression phase, so he is up a little bit more. But he can normally go from 10 till about half, six, seven. So it's really, really good. I get a good amount of sleep.

sleep, so I'm able to go into training and just with the same energy that I normally have. Some days can be worse than others, but again, I just listen to my body and tell my coaches that today might not be the best day to come in and train. They're all completely understandable on that, so that's really good. Julie, what's your take on sleep? Yeah, so, I mean, obviously sleep is one of the metrics that we're going to be looking at with Alice, and the idea is to kind of build up a picture of what that looks like for her at different months and different stages of her return postpartum.

And as Alice mentioned, there's, of course, going to be constraints because, you know, there's going to be time to time where Parker's awake or he might be sick or, you know, whatever it might be. So there's, of course, going to be constraints. But if we can build a profile of what that looks like for Alice, what we can do is implement certain things like nap strategies, for example, as a little top-up if night-time sleep is not where it needs to be. And as Alice mentioned, it's also just about being proactive with the response physically. So, you know, if she has had a bad night's sleep, for example, just cutting back in the training volume can be an effective way of offsetting. some of that. How is that sound to you, cutting back in the training volume? Does that something that registers with elite level athletes? I don't know. I mean, how much of this is a dialogue between the two of you? I'm not used to it, obviously, but

no, no, I'm obviously in a different stage in life right now, so I definitely have to listen to my body and listen to what people say, which, again, I'm not used to because I'd just like to keep going and going, but no, like I said, I'm at a different stage in life, so I really need to

protect myself. Yeah, but how do you do that? I mean, just understanding that, because of course, to become an Olympian, you have to have a certain mindset and you wouldn't be who you are if you didn't have that drive and, you know, the sort of knowing

that your body can do things because you've trained to make it do it. So how do you then make yourself actually my body's been through a thing? I need to maybe do what's right. It took some getting used to because like I said, I'm not used to it, but I'm now at the point where if Parker hasn't slept very well

or I haven't slept very well, I know when to not go into the gym or I'll even stay home, do a little bit of like home stretching, home workout or go to my own fitness gym and do something, just something to keep my body moving. But no, I'm definitely getting used to the having to stay home, not going back into the gym. Yeah, it's so much about the mind as well.

When you are watching athletes postpartum, what are the signs that, you know, they might have to do things slightly differently, change their approach or slow down a bit? Yeah, well, I think firstly it's about setting that space because that's the reality. Things are going to be different. Your body's gone through a lot. It's gone through a lot of change. Biomechanics is going to be different. We know the pelvis widens. We know the athletes are going to be weaker.

There's a period of sort of detraining. So it's about setting realistic expectations within that. but athletes are very, very used to that fluctuation of training volume anyway and it's part of the natural process of training. So all of the athletes that I've worked with, they're somewhat used to that process. And then it's just about framing it in relation to their goals and making sure they understand the process

and why we're doing this and this is why we're doing it like this in order to get to point A, point B, whatever we're aiming for. I'm going to read out, we've got lots of messages coming in because we need to see what, obviously we're talking about someone who's very exceptional going back into training. And I'm not saying that our listeners aren't exceptional. But, you know, it's a variety of experiences. Anna says, I'm an endurance swimmer.

And doing long-distance swims has been a big part of my life for over 15 years. It hasn't been easy to train since becoming a mom in 2020. But every year since my daughter arrived, I've met up with my swim family from around the world to do 20K swims in a different location every year. This brings me so much joy. And I think that's what it's about as well. It's kind of, you know, keep. If it's something that is you and it defines you and then all of a sudden your life changes to be able to be able to get back to doing it.

Helen says I had my first baby in an RAF hospital in Germany 40 odd years ago. The following day a male PT instructor came and all those ladies were taken through a gentle fitness routine. Claiming you only had your baby the day before was no excuse. Goodness me. I left the hospital five days later in a dress with a waist, albeit elasticated. A great lesson to get going. ASAP after child birth or injury, what would you say to that? Yeah, I mean, the first thing to recognise with that is every woman is different.

So I don't think we can really give, you know, binary guidelines around when people should or should not be initiating exercise after giving birth. So that's the first thing to say in response to that. Secondly, you know, it is NHS guidelines that people should wait until that six-week check-up with their medical practitioner. Some people can start sooner than that. And that's absolutely fine. You know, it's always recommended to have that check-in with your doctor or healthcare practitioner. to make sure you're ready to go. But I think the most important thing,

the athletes, is just making sure their body's actually strong enough to get back to the sport that they're training for. So we need to do a lot of strength work to rebuild that pelvic floor and trunk strength to make sure they can tolerate the forces they're about to be exposed to. Alice, what's next for you? When do you hope to compete? So it's hard to say, really,

because I'm obviously taking it day by day and I'm currently only really focusing on bars and bean just because they're the less impact world. but they're the less impact pieces. So hopefully by the end of this year, I'll be back fully for the world in, I think it's in Netherlands, I'd like to say. But hopefully I'll be back for that.

But I guess we never know. So, yeah. Well, best of luck with all of it. And thank you both for joining me to talk about this experience. And with being a new mum as well, Alice. All the best. Thanks so much. Thank you.

84844 is the text number. I'm going to read out a couple more of your messages. Julie says after giving me, birth. My workout consisted of breastfeeding and caring for an extremely demanding baby who didn't get the memo about nights at being sleep time. It was the most strenuous thing I've ever done. It was 24-7, who needs exercise? Now, if you're a parent or a carer of young children, I recommend listening to the CBB's Parenting Download. It's a podcast that focuses on a different topic each week with well-known parents and expert guests. This week, presenter Katie Thistleton

and Governor B look at parental anxiety, those nagging feelings of worry or fear that can be common in parents. They're joined by psychologist Dr. Tara Quinn Kirillow and as we approach the conclusion of this series of the traitors, they also hear the personal experience of last year's traitors winner, the secret soldier Leanne Quigley, who's also mother to twins. I felt maybe I was fearless until I became a mum.

In the army, I used to deploy here and everywhere. I would never be in one place for too long. Every couple of years, I would be in a different country on a deployment. And for me, that was really exciting. The only, I guess I did experience anxiety whilst I was in the army, but it was only really, how long am I going to be sleeping outside for before I can get in a bed? You know, like, things like that. And then suddenly when I had babies, I was just anxious of everything.

I was scared of the world because I think you just, when you become a parent, especially, you, there's protection. comes over you, doesn't it? And you don't want anything to harm them. Could you leave us with one quick bit of advice for when those feelings come up? Don't let it build up. As soon as you start experiencing the feelings,

I know for myself, fresh air and ice cold water was really helpful for me. So if you try and control it earlier on, you can then potentially prevent it from getting quite bad. So I guess it's just trying to look after yourself whilst looking after everyone else. Good advice there. that episode in full plus plenty more by searching for CBB's parenting, download wherever you get your podcasts.

84844. Keep your thoughts and opinions and experiences coming in. Now on Monday of this week, my next guest received an employment appeal tribunal judgment that she feels vindicated the last six years of her life. In 2019, Shanjou Pohl was dismissed from her job at global consulting firm Accenture. She'd worked there for a decade, but in 2019, she'd developed severe endometriosis. She'd had surgery the year before to remove painful cysts. And three months after her phased return to work, following that surgery, she was let go due to poor performance. Well, Sanju challenged that decision at an employment tribunal in 2022, which did rule unfair dismissal. on procedural grounds but did not award compensation.

What the tribunal failed to do, Sunjou believes, was to recognise the impact that endometriosis had had on her life, her health and ability to work. She took her case to an employment, appeal tribunal last year, and this week it ruled in her favour. Sanju Paul joins me now, along with Emma Cox, the chief executive of endometriosis UK, to discuss the understanding of endometriosis in the workplace.

and what we can learn from this judgment and welcome to both of you Shenzhu Monday's ruling states the employment tribunal also failed properly to analyse whether the claimant who has an endometriosis was a disabled person at the material times and whether she'd been subject to discrimination

because of something arising in consequence of disability what's your reaction to this judgment how do you feel oh my goodness hearing it out loud is sort of surreal it's been a long time coming six and a half years of trying to get justice for myself, but also as I meet more women with endometriosis who are struggling in the workplace,

realizing that this is a real problem in this country and the judgment is there to help ensure that these women are heard and seen and looked after and given reasonable adjustment in the workplace and not penalised for a chronic condition. So yes, it feels incredible, but also very surreal. And I'm going to, we're going to hear your story in a moment, but I just want to get Emma's reaction to the judgment as well.

Well, I think As Sanjus had a horrific time going through what should never have happened. And I think the judgment is a very, very stark reminder of what's long been accepted by many. The endometriosis may constitute a disability and that it needs to be assessed on individual basis, taking into account specific effects on the individual. And I think the fact that the tribunal appeal actually said it was, that the original tribunal have been wholly inadequate in its analysis of whether this case of endometeosis constituted to disability to show to sheer lack of understanding of mental health conditions like endometriosis in the workplace.

So, Shundju, what happened? What a story to be able to share. And thank you, Anita. It was summer 2018. I had just celebrated my ninth year anniversary at Accenture. and I started experiencing excruciating abdominal pain. I had private medical health care at the time, so I went to see a gynecologist called Dr. Akaro,

who's still my gynecologist, and he did a transvaginal scan and told me that I had endometriosis. I had an endometrioma, an ovarian cyst on my left ovary, the size of a Coke can, and I'd been obviously walking around, working with these cysts on my ovaries and in debilitating pain, I said to him, what do we do now?

And he said, you need to have immediate surgery to avoid torsion of your uterus. And I said, well, I'm about to start a very important client project. I want to make senior manager, which is the next promotion point. And he was like, let me be clear, you're very unwell. You're going to have to take time off work. And that, for me, was a huge shock. I let work know. I had the ovarian cystectomy.

It was under general anaesthetic. It was very traumatic. And it was a slow recovery for me. I found it unbearably painful. I can only describe my first period after the surgery is Armageddon. I could barely walk. I had a month off work. I was in touch with work the whole time,

particularly the client lead, because I really wanted to start this project. It was in inclusion and diversity. That was the area of the business that I was in, in people and change. And I just wanted to get back to work. I potentially went back. in hindsight too quickly. There was an occupational health report that said I needed a phase return,

but it's like the typical story for an ambitious person who wants to do their job, it's also being held back by, you know, their medical condition. I did go back to work and I really struggled. I had pain every day. I was fatigued. I started bleeding every day and then I had to come back off sick again. I was off sick for six more weeks. I came back to work, this time on a phase return. You know, Accenture was so supportive. I was like amazing. A two-month phase return and then also a London restriction to be able to do a job in London. Yeah. But it turns out that was going to be kind of the end of the road for me. I couldn't get a role in London. I started an internal role. It was really helpful because I could work from home. I had a recurrence of the end

matrioma so I was unwell again pain fatigue needing to go to the toilet all the time nauseous just terrible symptoms and then I was terminated and then you decided to do it well you didn't want to stop there I mean the point that is so difficult to talk about is that moment of getting a letter out of the blue yeah to say you're a poor performer you could be terminated at this meeting and going into a meeting and giving it your all and saying, hang on a second, I've been ill, I've been off work. Please know that I am a high performer. I want to do well in the business, but not have been told that I was performing badly, not being on a performance management plan, no capability process, but still feeling like I'm a poor performer.

Emma, how typical is this? It varies, but sadly not as uncommon as we'd like. to be. So I think that I do think Sanjou's had a particularly difficult time, but we hear far too often of people who their endometriosis isn't understood. Maybe some employers don't want to talk about it because they're embarrassed. Anything because we have, you know, it's a taboo subject around periods. They can also be issues with bowel problems, heavy bleeding. And quite often it's just swept under the carpet because people find embarrassing. And I think the other thing is not recognized as a long-term condition and also possibly that people have keyhole surgery in a myth that if you have keyhole surgery it's just a couple of cuts but actually when they're in when they're inside a lot of

there's a lot of things go on and that can mean a really long time for recovery but we do see glimmers of hope we have end meet CHOS UK we have an endometrae's friendly employer scheme that we started specifically to help people in the workplace and we have some great employers who are trying to see how they can improve and whether that's um office-based organisations or organisations like British shareways so that council some of the police forces, how do they support their employees to do well at work? We put the details of the case to extension and they contested the accuracy of some of the arguments but said that due to legal matters being ongoing, they could not comment further.

Where did you find support? Oh, such a great question. So much support from friends and family and from the endometriosis community. You know, fellow ender warriors that have got in touch with me since I started sharing my story on crowd justice because they had gone through something similar. Why did you want to fight this so publicly? I mean, I think at the time I didn't know it would become public. I think at the time, all I could think about was trying to get justice for myself. But it became larger than that when I got the outcome in 2022.

And the things that, the grounds that we've appealed on, you know, disability discrimination, it's something that is a, affecting women, not just with endometriosis, adenomyosis, PCOS, PMDD. This is something that women across the country are experiencing, and I have an opportunity to do something to pave the way forward for change so that there is fairness in the workplace. And particularly in the corporate world, and one of the things that we've appealed on is this up or out model. That says that you need to be promoted within a certain time frame, otherwise you are deemed to be a poor performer. That can't stand. It's not aligned with the law in this. country. What did the job mean to you? It was everything. It was my world. It was my identity. When I got told in that meeting that I was terminated with immediate effect, I had two weeks.

I couldn't talk to anyone. I couldn't speak to anyone. I wasn't allowed to join any more meetings. My world fell apart. It became a very dark, bleak place for me. I've gone through a lot of counselling to kind of get through it. And I think the only thing that I come back to when I talk about with my counsellor is my fundamental value system believes in fairness and justice and the opportunity to kind of make a change in the lifetime that we have. And I do feel that through these proceedings, I'm able to kind of live my truth and be able to make a difference that can hopefully make a positive impact on millions of women in this country with endometriosis. Emma, you offer assistance with workplace issues. So what kinds of issues do people come to you with? A range of things. Quite

often a complete lack of understanding by the employer about actually endometriosis and a condition where you might have cyclical disabilities rather than them all the time. And also some very basic things. For example, a lot of places will have uniform policies where only allowed one size of uniform, yet for some people, cyclical bloating means their size changes or being able to wear, for example, white trousers in summer when you have heavy menstrual bleeding. And what we find is that for many roles with if the employer speaks to their employee who will know their symptoms and probably be very good at scheduling them, they can work flexibly around them, shifts, pans, etc. And yet a lot of employers just don't want to deal with it. I think there's also a lack of

just recognition in society. It's sort of, well, that can't be a problem. Everyone has periods. And it's so much more than just a period having endometosis, adenomyosis or menstrual health condition. Which is why we need to keep talking about it. The more we can talk about it and we do talk about it, obviously on Women's Hour here. It's been over six years for you, Shandu. What's the toll that's taken on your life? It's required a lot of patience, a lot of endurance. A lot of, I've had a lot of sleepless nights,

a lot of insomnia, panic attacks. My mental health has been taken for a complete rise. I can't even tell you physically as well, having to continue while having this chronic condition. It's been incredibly difficult and it's not a journey I would wish upon anyone. And I really do think that this judgment helps for women with endometriosis to be seen. As Emma said, the analysis was wholly inadequate, that may well be happening in employers across the country, not understanding women's situation. It's previously been established, Emma, in employment tribunals,

that endometriosis can be a disability by the terms of the 2010 Equality Act, and it can impact sufferers as a disability. But not everyone who has severe endo will see themselves as disabled. What's your thought on this? I think one of the challenges we have with endometriosis is the impact of the symptoms raised very significantly, and some people have no or very mild symptoms, where others, as Sandhuis described,

can have very serious symptoms sometimes for a very long time. And so I think really as an employer should with any other long-term condition, it's about understanding what the individual is feeling. And the thing that I'd say as well to those with endometeosis, I think it can be quite scary trying to raise a condition with your employer. And we do have online some guidance, etc.

but also to encourage employers to consider what they can do for all those with medical health. It's a lot of people, it's half the population. And I think as well, I think for those who are experiencing challenges, do keep a pain and symptoms diary, do think about suggestions you can make, but do understand that you do have legal backing. If it's disabling you, then endometriosis is a disability. Emma Cox, Chief Executive of Endometriosis UK and Shungey, Paul, Thank you for coming in to share your story.

And I'm just going to read this message that's coming from one of our listeners. I suffered endometriosis from my teens, then had a full hysterectomy. Luckily enough to have my daughter, but I've suffered constant acute and chronic pain since 1974. The scar issue growths from surgery have left me disabled with back and groin pain. It's a major disease for women and should be recognised as such. Shandu, thank you once again. Thank you, Anita. Now, lastly today, the Brit Award nominations were out last night and we're going to talk about

some of the many, many women being recognised. Yes, female singer-songwriters are dominating the list, with Lola Young and Olivia Dean having the most nominations. They're both up for artist of the year alongside Lily Allen, Jade, Lil Sims and Pink Panther. Nearly two-thirds of the nominations feature women as solo artists or in mixed gender groups, the highest representation yet. So why are women riding high in the music industry at the moment? Well, to answer this, I'm joined by Roshin O'Connor, music editor at The Independent.

Welcome, Rochine. We love to see it. Women leading the nominations this year. What's happened? I mean, well, we just have an absolute glut of amazing pop music, rap, rock, everything across the board. But also I think the industry is finally maybe waking up a little bit and seen what's been right in front of them for quite a long time now. What I'm very happy about is I'm sure we have spoken about the exact opposite when it's been no women.

And we've had that conversation. So you say that women have sat up and paid attention. the music industry of set up, made attention. In what way? What's happened? I mean, well, so obviously, yeah, like I think 2023,

there were no women nominated at the Brits for artists of the year. I think a year after they scrapped the gender categories, which is a bit unfortunate. But, I mean, previously representation has been patchy across the board. I think they've gone to real lengths to address that over the years

by changing up the voting board, bringing in better representation from the actual judges who decided to the nominations. I think that's great. But also I think just, you know, we're experiencing such an amazing time in music right now. There's such a glut again across the board. And also how the landscape has changed.

You know, I think for years, like women were sold the lie that there could only be one person on top at any one time. And it's obviously inserts where we're here, like I'm not allowed to say on this show. But it's not true. And I think now we're seeing you can have an Olivia Rodrigo, but you can also have a Charlie XX, a Chapel Row and a Sabrina Carpenter, a Lily Allen, a Dochi and Olivia Dean. And it's just really exciting. And a lot of them can be on stage at Glastonbury as well. Why are confessional female voices like Lily Allen so commercially attractive right now? What's happening?

I mean, there's probably some kind of psychological reason you can dig into. I mean, for me, it's kind of like the messy, horrible world we live in at the moment. We are, I think, often trying to make sense of things. And art is one of the main ways we can do that. I think hearing someone who has clearly found clarity after going through something, you know, if it's a positive or a negative experience, and finding a way to convey that to their listeners. And you don't have to have gone through what they've gone through to feel like you can relate in some way.

Like they're so emotional. And, you know, I think Lily Allen, especially West End girls struck a chord with so many people. And not everyone has been through what she's singing about, but it's the emotion and the frankness and the candidness in her songwriting that relates to people. Yeah. Also big stories in the past few years about female artists who have, you know, fought their own labels, famously Ray and Taylor Swift. They had disputes with them. How is that relationship changing?

I think, well, autonomy is, you know, a huge just debate in the music industry at the moment. I think it's inspiring to see people like Ray and Taylor Swift who have fought for years, I think, to just basically just have the right, you know, to be in control of their own careers. And also just I think the industry really has needed to wake up and realize that, you know, they're artists for a reason. Like they're, you know, they're the geniuses. They know what they're talking about. And, you know, and they should have the right to have control over where their career is going. And I think if you try, as the industry has for, you know, in many instances to mold an artist and make them like someone else that is, you know, successful in another field or something, it doesn't work because people love characters in music. They love personality. And, you know, Ray is an amazing person. personality, Lolly Young, Lily Allen, Olivia Dean, you know, like they have so much charisma and that stands out and that's exactly why they appeal to fans. Yeah. And it seems like because it's not just one and they are sort of speaking up about what they

believe in, what's true of their experience, they're not, they don't seem to be afraid, there seems to be great power in that. And maybe that sort of power is kind of filtering through to other female artists. I mean, is that, do you feel that's like that's? happening. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had Zara Larson on this podcast, I did good vibrations recently, and she was, I mean, she's another one, like I think this idea of, I mean, development is another really important thing, I think, that I've noticed over the last few years is labels and teams actually willing to stick with an artist and see them develop over a period of time. Pop stars

don't happen overnight. It takes a long time for someone like Sabrina Carpenter, six albums in before she blew up. She's been in the entertainment industry for 20 years. You know, it's not an over overnight thing. And Zara, I think, she's experiencing that right now. She's having this incredible renaissance. She's, you know, she supported Addison Ray on her last tour and now she's headlining and she's having this huge moment. And she said the messages she gets from other pop stars, you know, DMing her kind of saying, I want to come to your show. It's so inspiring. And I think, yeah, really women, they've known this for a long time, but I think there's a concerted effort now to not let a misogynist music industry kind of

try and push them down and put them against each other and it's really, really good to see. I mean, is this a genuine, okay, let's just try and think of it from the other side. Is it a genuine shift in power about, and is it about authorship of women or is it simply a new phase and the industry has learned how to monetise it? I mean, I think it's both. I mean, the industry at the end of the day is a business. Like if they see something that's making money, they're obviously going to try and get in on that. You know, I think you need to have that cynicism there, but also it's kind of like, okay, fair.

Like they need to, it's a business. And so yeah, there is that. But it's also kind of funny in a way that it's taken them this long to realize, like, the massive resources. I mean, the thing is that always makes me laugh is that if you go back all the way to Beatlemania, like, their biggest fan base was girls and women. You know, that's probably like the blueprint for like the ultimate music pop fandom. So I don't really know why it's taking this song for the industry to cotton on like, oh, maybe, you know, women and girls. Buy music too.

And maybe buy more music than anyone else. It's fascinating stuff. I look forward to seeing what happens. But for now, Rochene, always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Rochene, O'Connor Music Editor at the Independent. That's it for me. Join me tomorrow when I'll be joined in the studio by author Claire Lynch

to talk about her Nero Book Award-winning novel, A Family Matter. Claire was inspired to write the book after learning that 90% of lesbian mothers in the 80s divorce cases lost legal custody of their children. It's going to be a fascinating listen. Join me tomorrow from 10. That's all for today's woman's hour.

Join us again next time. I'm Dr Chris Van Tellerken and I'm Dr. Zandt Van Telenk. Chris, it's that time of year when we set resolutions. It certainly is Zandt and that is why in January our four episodes of WhatsApp docs are going to be on the key themes that feature in resolutions. Alcohol, food, exercise and the... the whole notion of resolutions themselves. Can we change? Should we change? Well, a lot of us think

we should. That's what we're doing the whole month paying attention or thinking we should pay attention to our health and well-being. In addition, we will be dropping a daily dose of expert wisdom from previous episodes because Zahn and I have felt and found that we need a reminder. Reminding about all the things that we've learned, from difficult conversations to how to look after our knees, protein, the power of nature, snackable-sized episodes every day, we've got you covered. And these daily doses are going to be dropping into the medicine cabinet that is the WhatsApp Doc's feed on BBC Sounds.