Woman's Hour - Derry Girls' actors Siobhan McSweeney and Louisa Harland on London stage, Laura Trevelyan, Mrs Pankhurst's Bodyguard

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

Brian Friel’s classic play Dancing at Lughnasa has opened at the National Theatre in London. Telling the story of the five Mundy sisters, two of the actors, more recently on our screens in Derry Girls – newly-Bafta nominated Siobhan McSweeney (AKA Sister Michael) and Louisa Harland (AKA Orla McCool) - join Nuala McGovern in the Woman’s Hour studio. UN experts have warned the UK government that its treatment of unaccompanied asylum seeker children is increasing the risk that they could be trafficked and is breaching international law. A statement issued yesterday expressed concern about the fate of children who had gone missing and has urged that the government does more to protect them. Siobhán Mullally is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on trafficking.Laura Trevelyan and 6 members of her family earlier this year travelled to Grenada to issue a public apology to the people of the Caribbean Island for her family’s links to the slave trade. The Trevelyan family is donating more than £100,000 in reparations. Now Laura is campaigning full time on the Caribbean’s fight for reparatory justice. And later this month she is launching a new group composed of families in Britain, with similar backgrounds, ancestors who were slave owners. Yesterday a 19-year-old who stabbed another teenager to death in a quiet Somerset town was found guilty of murder. Joshua Delbono stabbed 16-year-old Charley Bates in Radstock, Somerset, on 31 July last year. It was Delbono's mother Donna who called the police and told them her son had killed Charley. This is a very serious crime which perhaps made it a clear cut decision for Donna Delbono to call the police but what about when it comes to other issues, if you knew your teenage child was taking or dealing drugs, stealing, or maybe drink driving - Would you ever call the police on your child? If, so at what point would you do it? Former detective superintendent Shabnam Chauhdri and former Conservative MP, parent and now criminal barrister Anna Soubry discuss.You may well have heard of Emmeline Pankhurst who was a leading figure in the suffragette movement, which called for the right for women to vote….But what about Kitty Marshall - one of Emmeline Pankhurst’s bodyguards? Emelyne Godfrey’s new book Mrs Pankhurst’s Bodyguard shines a light on Kitty Marshall and how she helped Mrs Pankhurst to evade the clutches of the authorities as a member of the Women’s Social and Political Union’s elite team ‘the Bodyguard’.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Well, I went to the wonderful Dancing at Lunasa last night, Brian Friel's play set in Donegal in 1936. And it's a play about family, sisterhood in particular. It's also about clashing pagan and Christian rituals and riotous dancing all around a kitchen table. And I'm delighted we have two of the actors with us today, Siobhan McSweeney and Louisa Harland. And yes, you may also know them from the beloved Derry Girls 2,

Sister Michael and Orla. So they are spending a lot of time together. Luckily, they are also friends as they play sisters each night. Now, I'd love to hear your stories on how your sisters affected your life decisions. Different maybe from your relationship with your brothers? You tell me. So the sibling relationship, it'll often be the longest of your life. So it does impact us in many ways often. You can text the programme. The number is 84844.

Text charged at the standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. I also want to turn to another headline. It's caught my eye. A 19-year-old man has been jailed for life for murder after his mum alerted police that he had stabbed another teenager to death. Donna Del Bono called 999 immediately after her son Joshua killed another young man, Charlie Bates, and gave the details about her son.

What do you think when you hear this? It may not be something, of course, as serious as Del Bono's crime, but do you think if a law is broken, do you as a parent or a guardian, a caregiver, have a moral obligation or responsibility to report it? We do have audio actually of that 999 call, which I will play to you during the programme. Again, the text number is 84844. So we're talking about family in lots of ways today. Also with us on Women's Hour, Laura Trevelyan. She recently apologised to the Caribbean island of Grenada for their family's historic role in the slave trade. So Laura will be with us and we're going to hear about how she discovered what she calls the horrors of her family's past and also how she's now working full time for reparatory justice for Caribbean nations.

So I'm looking forward to speaking to Laura as well. All coming up, but I want to begin with the UN. Experts there have warned the UK government that its treatment of unaccompanied asylum seeker children is increasing the risk that they could be trafficked and that they're breaching international law. A statement issued yesterday expressed concern about the fate of children

who had gone missing and has urged the government to do more to protect them. Siobhan Mullally is the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Trafficking and joins me now. Good to have you with us. Thank you for joining Women's Hour.

How many children are we talking about? Good morning. Thank you for having me on. We're talking about over 4,000 children having been accommodated in hotels since this practice began in 2021. And the reports indicate that more than 400 of those, about 440 children have gone missing. And from our information, as of the end of January this year, there were still 200 children missing. And we are very concerned. Obviously, unaccompanied asylum seeking children are very much at risk of exploitation, including at risk of trafficking in persons within the UK. Do we know, so there was approximately 200 that their whereabouts was found out of that 400, shall we say, and 200 still not accounted for.

Do we know what happened to those 200 children? Where did they go that were then eventually tracked? The reports indicate that they were located within the UK, so they're moving within the UK, but away from the original point of arrival within Kent. So moving on within the UK. And that's a concern that there may be organized groups or informal networks targeting those children who arrive and then moving them within the UK. And as you said, a significant number still remain missing. Our main concern is around identifying and tracing those children, but also ensuring that correct, appropriate protection arrangements are put in place for all asylum seeking children arriving without discrimination, ensuring that they are treated as children

with the right to protection and in need of protection. And so they would be children under the age of 18, Siobhan? Yes, that's the standard within international law and of course UK. The majority of those who went missing we think

are between the ages of 13 and 16. Okay, also good to know. We did contact the Home Office for a statement and a spokesperson has said that due to the rise in dangerous small boats crossings, the government had no alternative

but to urgently use hotels to give unaccompanied asylum-seeking children arriving in the UK a roof over their heads. They said the well-being of children and minors in our care is an absolute priority and there is 24-7 security at every hotel used to accommodate them.

They went on to say, and I know you might want to pick up on all these points, when a child goes missing, a multi-agency missing persons protocol is mobilised alongside the police and local authorities to establish their whereabouts and ensure they are safe. So let's start with the first one, which is that they are staying in hotels. Do you have an issue with that? They do say 24-7 security. Yes, we have very serious concerns about that. Asylum-seeking children should not be placed in hotels.

This was introduced as a temporary measure in 2021, but has continued. Similar concerns have been raised by the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration, by the Children's Commissioner. Children should be provided with safeguards, should come under the ordinary child protection system for all unaccompanied and asylum-seeking children.

They should not be placed in hotels. And if the government, though... The state has an obligation to ensure protection, to identify, assist and provide guardians to children, not simply security, but to provide

a protective environment and ensure that all those are trained, appropriately trained, in child protection and prevention of trafficking of children. So what does that look like in concrete terms? You don't want it to be a hotel, you want it to be a guardian. Is it families that you want the government to start mobilising to take people in? Like, what does it look like? It looks like a child protection system, which in the uk is managed under local authorities so

placements by local authorities under the national transfer scheme it can mean small reception centers it can mean foster placements but the key thing is within the ordinary child protection system, providing guardians, providing safe, appropriate protection and accommodation, not hotels. There is a child protection system in place. Local authorities manage child protection, including for unaccompanied and asylum seeking children. All children should be treated as a need of protection without discrimination. And the issue of small boats is a distraction from those obligations and the need to take action to provide protection. I'm thinking of the numbers, though, if they say they don't have those local placements that I think you are pushing for, which are smaller and more specific supervision,

I think that you're looking for. Could there be anything? I don't know that those hotels are are used but that there is more guardianship or more supervision inserted within those locations? At the moment children are in a complete legal limbo. We need steps taken to ensure that they come within the child protection system. This has been ongoing now for, it was 2021 that Kent County Council announced that it was no longer taking responsibility for children arriving and that the use of hotels was introduced initially as a very

temporary urgent measure but it has continued. The Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration called for this to be ended as did the Children's Commissioner and that it should be ended within six months and so we are concerned that it's Commissioner and that it should be ended within six months. So we are concerned that it's continuing and that that is the focus rather than putting in place child protection systems placements in accordance with the existing requirements of the Children's Act in the UK

and the state's international obligations under the Convention on the Rights of the Child and other international human rights law obligations to prevent trafficking of children. I understand. If they are not, though, as you say, and if they are breaching that law, what will you or your organisation, the UN, do about it? Well, we've written formally to the government about these concerns. We've highlighted the range of obligations that are potentially in breach and we've set out our concerns and the steps that need to be taken.

We are not the only body that has done that but as the UN Special Rapporteur joined by several other UN special procedures we are calling on the government urgently to take action to end the use of hotels and to ensure protection for all children without discrimination on grounds of nationality, race or ethnicity, to ensure that they are given protection and that they are not at risk of trafficking within the UK. Thanks so much for joining us Siobhan Mullally, UN Special Rapporteur on Trafficking. Now, I want to turn next on women's art

to something completely different. We do have a treat for you. Brian Friel's classic play Dancing at Lunasa is currently on stage at the National Theatre in London. It tells the story of the Five Monday Sisters

back in 1930s Ireland. We have two of them here with us in studio. A little bit sleep deprived, but they were prepared to give up their sleep for you, dear woman's hour listener. We have newly BAFTA nominated Siobhan McSweeney and also Louisa Harland, who you will have also seen, yes, as I mentioned, in Derry Girls. Siobhan playing Sister Michael, of course, the sarcastic nun, and headteacher and Louisa playing, of course, Orla McCool. Welcome to both of you. Good morning.

Good morning. How is it to be working together again in this very different experience that I got to see firsthand last night? Do you want to start, Louisa? It's rather special, I would say. Yeah. You don't get to repeatedly work with the same people over and over again. One of the joys of being an actor is that you get a different experience every little while with a new job. But to be reunited with my beloved Louisa is a very special thing indeed.

And sort of like we automatically have that sisterhood from Derry Girls, obviously. We became very close friends on Derry Girls and then here with the rest of the Mundy sisters and the rest of the cast, it's a very small cast of only eight people. Yeah.

And they become like a little family. Yeah, it is very woman-centric, isn't it? Derry Girls and now, of course, Dancing at Lunasa. But for people that haven't seen this play, it's told through the eyes of seven-year-old Michael, remembering his aunties, these larger-than-life figures. Siobhan, can you tell us a little bit about The Five Mondays?

Yeah, so it's actually quite a hard... I've been trying to explain the play to my brother, actually, and he's like, it sounds very boring. It's not boring. It's not boring at all. So I think that says either told through the eyes, as he said, of the nephew, Michael, who looks back on this one summer when they received a Marconi wireless for the first time, the radio. So suddenly there was music in the house that could be turned on and off at will. And also the brother who had been doing missionary work in Africa returns home under a cloud. They also got visited by Michael's father. It's, you know, like in the way of all great theatre, very little happens, but has a huge effect.

I often think of, you know, that great description of Godot where nothing happens twice. It's a very gentle play with very seismic, emotional quakes that happen. But from the outside, it's a very gentle summer. And these aunties, Louisa, as well. There was some of Brian Friel's own family in that. Yeah, it was based off of his own aunties. Each of them kind of had their own character. I thought your character as well, Aggie. She's there but has this very strong presence.

I kept on wondering of what was going through her head. Yes. Wishing for, I suppose, a better life. Yeah. A different life. Yeah. A different life. Exactly.

Yeah. And instead, Maggie, that you embody, Siobhan, you're playing her for the second time. I am, actually, yeah. I mean, I joke that Dancing at Lunasa is the sort of equivalent of the Irish actress's passport.

You have to at least on one production before you're allowed your equity card. Yeah, I mean, that shows how popular the show is. And so, yes, I did it 10 years ago in Birmingham Rep. And I was far too young to play Maggie. And I knew, not that I was too young, but I knew that I would play her again. My aim is to play her three times because Brian, despite being such, despite it being such

an accessible play, you sort of think then that it's not a deeply intellectual play. And it's an incredibly complex and highly crafted play. So there was things I didn't understand because I hadn't lived them, you know. Can you give me an example? So she, an example, I think the idea of regret is something you shouldn't feel when you're younger. Right. And as I get older, it isn't that I feel regret. I don't. I feel nothing but luck and disbelief. I'm getting away with all this. But I'm able to access regret a little bit more and regret for things that haven't happened that are beyond my control. And that's something that all these women embody. I think very much what came through for me as well, watching that, it is things that you will never do.

You know, exactly. Yeah, that time has passed. Yes. Yeah. Which then dancing at Lunasa, there was one part, you know, will they go to this passed yes yeah which then dancing at lunasa there was one part you know will they go to this dance or not are they too old would what would the town think and uh you know you mentioned the marconi radio there uh the unreliable companion and centerpiece in this kitchen uh wonderful when it works like our wi-fi now very unreliable exactly

just think particularly perhaps you were if you were in parts of County Donegal, you know, out in the wilds of it. But it does give rise to riotous dancing, but it can also stop this Marconi radio when it overheats, for example, as it does in this clip. It's gone again, that old thing. Sometimes you're good with it, Aggie. Feel the top, is it warm?

It's roasting. Turn it off till it cools down. Bloody useless set, that. There's no need for corner boy language, Christina. There must be some reason why it overheats. Because it's a gone dab, bloody useless set. That's why I got down and bloody useless. Are wellingtons absolutely necessary in a day like this, Rose?

Well, if only my Wellingtons and my Sunday shoes, Kate, and it's not Sunday, is it? Oh, dear. Oh, dear, dear. We are suddenly very logical, aren't we? Oh, I tell you something, girls. This Ginger Rogers has seen better days.

As she pulls on a wild woodbine. And a wild woodbine. How does it feel hearing that Louisa? Yeah, kind of mad. I'm thinking how did you get that? When did you record this? What's happening? Magic of radio. There was actually, funnily enough, we were doing the bow last night.

Our audiences have been absolutely extraordinary. Very beautiful. Understanding the tone of the play very much and being very respectful. But there was somebody in the front row filming the bow. And he got my best Sister Michael face anyway. He got it.

I bet he did. Or they got a glare anyway and the camera went down. So I've no, maybe, did he give you that recording? It wasn't me. I'm just going to put my hands up right now. I wouldn't dare.

I would not dare. But I think that shows the liveliness of. Let's talk about the dance scene. I mean, this is transformative. It is uplifting. You don't want it to end because to kind of paint the picture, it is, if anybody is familiar also with Ireland in the 30s or 40s or that, you know, it's the women in their house coats, the socks, the little lace up shoes around this kitchen table doing the household chores of which there are so many. And there's an element of drudgery and boredom, but then the music can explode it into a different dimension.

What is it like to do that dance, Louisa? It's pretty magical, to be honest. And I think that it's a real release for the characters and a release for us as actors. And for the audience. And for the audience, exactly. I really feel that.

That's what I was saying earlier. I'm surprised no one's got up on stage with us. I had to hold myself back. Because it's a form of therapy, the dance, and it's a huge release. But how was that choreography done, is what I was wondering when I was sat there. It's so beautiful.

So there's a little bit of a garden outside the kitchen as well, so to speak. And it's so perfectly timed and almost your eyes can't take it all in. Well, Wayne McGregor, essentially the chief choreographer for the Royal Ballet, was drafted in to, I mean, he says it's very similar dealing with the five Mundy sisters and dealing with the Royal Ballet Company. He did say that. Yeah, the physicality, the grace,

the ability to move. Very, particularly me. Yes, it's true. I'm well able, you know, he quite rightly so and something that we all and Josie and all the cast were very much for, which was this idea of taking the dance away from, with all due respect, prettiness. And taking the dance away from the idea of something regulated and something pretty pretty again is the word. And instead, it's meant to be this release, as Louisa has said,

it's meant to be this release of want, of desire, of frustration, of anger, of almost an evocation of pagan gods as well. So it's an incredibly messy thing. So what he gave us was a very loose structure and then has increasingly, it's highly choreographed, but increasingly has made it more ragged around the edges. So it looks scary and beautiful, I hope. You should be a little bit frightened. And also so spontaneous, you know. And I can't tell you the thud I also had, which I'm sure the rest of the audience had as well, when the radio stopped working and the music stopped.

Yes, yes. We call that radio interruptus. I've had that in my career. The idea of the women are just left in this, they're not able to complete their phrase. So they're left tetchy and angry and just it takes away this idea of polite, pretty women. And instead it's women with desires and angers and great joy.

Yes. And of course, one of the sisters, Kate, who really is more rigid and holding back. And I'm trying to think of some of the words she was used she was called self-righteous she was called a nag I'm just trying to get our audience kind of this idea of the but she lets go as well by herself in the garden here's a message saw dancing at Lunasau last night was completely enthralled the interactions between the sisters the quiet moments the wistfulness. It was deeply, deeply moving. And the dance scene, utter joy!

Exclamation point. You mentioned Josie as well, I should say. That's the director, Josie O'Rourke as well, for people who aren't familiar with the play just yet. Just back to the dancing for a moment though, Siobhan. You did have a serious bike accident in 2021. So I'm just thinking that must have also taken a bit of work to get to that point. It's very physical.

It is. It is. And when I was offered this, it did take me a long time to say yes, because I was very worried about my leg. I was heartbroken at the idea that I wouldn't be able to do what I wanted to do with it. And then I, you know, I sort of copped on and realized that, you know, Maggie can only be what I am. I'm the instrument. And if it's a wonky instrument, then so be it. And despite my innate grace and poetry fluidity. If she's wonky, it's the intention behind it. You know, we all dance. She also sings.

She's going to have my larynx. Do you know what I mean? This is the instrument she has in this particular incarnation. There's so much of the script that lends to that, Siobhan. Yeah. It's so weird that. Yeah, it does. And I think of Maggie's lines, you know. Yeah. Of sort of, you know yeah of sort of

you know and also I have a huge huge scar on a misshapen leg now and if nothing else it shows a life it does

I'm just thinking actually of one of the characters as well you know who goes to Spain and has an accident that then can't be the dancing teacher anymore

I mean dancing infuses it does the whole play. But I was, God, it must have been more than 25 years, I think, since I'd read the play before going to see it last night. And I had, you know, then I forgot Agnes, off she goes. Some parts of it are so sad. She leaves home, which, of course, was such a part of Ireland at that stage. Yeah, yeah, it's very simple, the play,

and very heartbreaking because it's so real, I think, and so relatable. Yeah, it's actually incredibly heartbreaking, the play, doing it as well. Doing it at the National Theatre is really poignant because Friel thought of the play while he was at the National and it's actually

I don't know if it's a part but when he was leaving the National one day he saw himself and his companions saw two women on a bench, destitute and he mentioned in passing I have two aunts that disappeared and we never heard of

again until they died and And the person with them said, you should write a play about that. And there's something quite sacred and magical about that because what I get, personally, what I get from playing Maggie is that I'm surrounded by my female relatives. I'm surrounded by, and everybody who has come and spoken to me, they feel a kinship with the play because there is a story and hidden stories that we all have in our families. And there's something quite beautiful and a great honour to share that on such a magnificent stage. It's on the Olivier stage. This play was written for a stage like the Littleton the Olivier is so much bigger it is an epic style theatre and to have this play

in an epic amphitheatre gives it the honour it deserves and I hope that we serve it as well as we can Well I loved it and so did our listeners that have been and those that will go Brian Friel's Dancing at Lunasa is at the National Theatre until Saturday

the 27th of May thank you both so much thank you a couple of you getting in touch about sisters because we're just talking about the impact of siblings

when my sister was born I was 13 and a half I used to bathe her change her and generally help my mum I was not obliged to but I enjoyed it once I was an adult

I did not experience the need to have a baby of my own. I felt I'd been there, done that, with the exception of actually giving birth. So that's the effect that she had on me and that was Angela getting in touch. Keep them coming. 84844. Okay.

Let me turn next to Laura Trevelyan. Laura and six members of her family earlier this year travelled to Grenada to issue a public apology to the people of the Caribbean island for her family's links to the slave trade. The Trevelyan family is donating more than £100,000 in reparations.

Now Laura is campaigning full-time on the Caribbean's fight for reparatory justice. And later this month she's launching a new group composed of families in Britain with similar backgrounds, ancestors that were slave owners. And she joins me now. Laura, great to have you with us. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about your family's background?

Yes, great to be with you, Nuala. Thanks for the invitation. Yes. So in the 18th and 19th centuries, my ancestors owned slaves on the Caribbean island of Grenada. They were called absentee slave owners. They never set foot in Grenada, to the best of my knowledge. They had an agent on the island, and they owned shares in a number of sugarcane plantations. And then when slavery was abolished in 1833, after they had owned slaves from about the middle of the 18th century. The British government amazingly knew that in order to get the abolition of slavery through Parliament, actually compensated the slave owners. Forty percent of Britain's GDP in 1833 was spent on compensating families like mine. And that debt was only paid off, by the way, in 2015.

And so families like we received actually the equivalent of about three million pounds in today's money. And so when that information came to light, when those records were put online by University College London in around 2013, our family began to debate what it meant. And then after Black Lives Matter matter that debate accelerated and led to us going to grenada in february did you know anything about that history before those records were published no uh not at all and it's particularly embarrassing for me because i'm someone who is when i was working for the bbc would trip up uh all over my family everywhere i went like in northern ireland for for example, Charles Edward Trevelyan.

He was the British official in charge of famine relief, a very controversial figure. So working in Northern Ireland 25 years ago, everybody would mention him. But no, we didn't know. This my generation, the generation above, we had no idea and we were shocked. And it must be quite a lot to take in. You did make the decision then to go to the islands of Grenada, a public apology and also to donate £100,000. And I'm curious what that experience has been like.

You know, what have people told you, the response to it? Well, it's been a whole range, as you can imagine. I mean, I was lucky enough to get to go to the island last year and make a BBC documentary about it and to tour the plantations and to talk to people about the impact and the legacy of slavery today. And that's what was so powerful, really. The fact that there's this legacy of obesity hypertension and diabetes across the caribbean because so many people have just eaten sugar for so long and there's also the impact on

the breakdown of the family structure just the fact the islands were left with nothing at emancipation so all of that was very powerful But in terms of the reaction to what we did, well, it was quite a day there in Grenada. You know, there were a significant number of people who felt that what we were doing was really inadequate, that it was just a gesture. Why were we doing this? But the overwhelming reaction that I got was one of, you know, thank you for stepping up and putting a face on slave ownership, because to us, our history has been a void. And now we can put the pieces together. And I was particularly struck by one woman who came up to me and said, you know, a burden that I didn't even

know that I was carrying has been lifted by you coming here. So we were persuaded by Sir Hilary Beckles, who's the chair of the Caribbean's Reparations Commission. He told us that for a family to come to the island, to be public, to acknowledge the pain of the past, he said it will set an example and it will have a symbolic power that you can't know. And my experience is that he's been right. Was it a difficult decision to take that step? Well, it was a long decision, Nuala. You know what family's like.

You've just been talking about family there. This is what I'm thinking. We're talking about families all through the programme. Exactly. You know, kids can be raised in the same household but have a completely different outlook on life. Absolutely. And indeed, this was the case.

But my cousin, John Dow, who's very, very patient, unlike me, convened these family Zoom sessions with lots of family members. And by the way, extended family contacted me, people in Australia, Germany, India. All these generations later, there are maybe a thousand descendants of the original Sir John Trevelyan who married into a slave-owning family. So any number of those people contacted us and 104 eventually signed the letter of apology. But yeah, there was a whole range of emotions. A lot of people felt philosophically you cannot apologize for something you didn't do, that this is the past. There's no good to be down in staring it up. And then also just on a practical level, people felt if we apologize, aren't we legally liable? You know, could somebody be coming to my house? Essentially, I'm living on a on a fixed income.

Well, what are you doing even going down this path? So there was a lot of that. Right. So this work continues. You're working with CARICOM, for example, and countries in the region. What do you hope to achieve with that? Well, CARICOM, which is the Intergovernmental Association for the Caribbean Nations, has a very specific ask of the former colonial powers that enslaved their populations. Caracom has a 10-point reparations plan, which begins with an apology, something that the British government and the

royal family, by the way, despite the king's recent and encouraging moves to look at the links between the royal family and slavery. But the British government and the royal family have never apologised for slavery. I think because of the obvious reason that if you apologise, you could be legally liable. So CARICOM asked, first of all, for an apology for slavery, for debt forgiveness, Caribbean nations have so much debt, and then for investment in their health and education systems, because one of the legacies of enslavement was poverty, illiteracy. We've talked about the diabetes and the hypertension from having a diet that's overwhelmingly sugar.

So these are practical things which I'm hoping to lobby on behalf of. Let me also just read a little of the statement, Laura, actually, which they said just in reference to some of the points you bring up there. The minister from the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office, David Rutley, he was saying this in the Westminster Hall debate on reducing inequality in the Caribbean.

He said slavery is abhorrent. We acknowledge the role of British authorities enabling the slave trade for many years before being the first global force to drive the end of the slave trade in the British Empire. We deeply regret this appalling atrocity and how it harms so many people. We acknowledge that the wounds and feeling on this issue run very deep. We believe the most effective way for the UK to respond to the cruelty of the past

is to ensure the current and future generations do not forget what happened, that we address racism, that we continue to work together to tackle today's challenges, such as climate change, through initiatives

that will make a difference in people's lives in Caribbean nations. But that is not what CARICOM is asking for. No, and if you look at what's happened, Nuala, just in the past few months, the impact of Black Lives Matter has been really revolutionary on this debate. In December, the Dutch government apologised for slavery and set up a reparations fund. We've seen the church commissioners apologise and also set up a £100 million fund on behalf of the Church of England to address the impact of slavery and of racism in the Caribbean and in Britain.

You've seen The Guardian newspaper acknowledge its links to slavery. Just the idea that Britain's wealth and prosperity today is to some degree dependent on enslavement is now being acknowledged and debated. So you see institutions and families moving ahead of the government is what I would say about that. And I think, you know, it's a powerful debate. And later this month, I plan to launch with other families with similar backgrounds whose ancestors profited from slavery, a group so that we can acknowledge others to join us. We can encourage people to do more. Excuse me, losing my head. That's all right. No longer a broadcast professional.

And yeah, we just hope to build on all of the momentum which is out there. I mean, just for you, you mention King Charles there and that he has made moves just to let our listeners know, Buckingham Palace has said it's cooperating with an independent study exploring that relationship between the British monarchy and the slave trade in the 17th and 18th centuries. And the palace said King Charles takes the issue profoundly seriously.

I mean, how far do you think you can go? Do you think you can achieve what CarICOM is looking for? I mean, I don't know, but I'm certainly going to try for sure. But I think the King's move is so significant, Nuala. I mean, the Royal African Company in the 18th century, that was the vehicle by which the slaves were shipped from West Africa to the Caribbean, and by the way, also to America. So American slavery was British slavery. And there's so much there, which is really unacknowledged. You know, the enslaved were stamped with the Duke of York's initials. He became king, the Duke of York was the overseer of the Royal African country. So the pain in the Caribbean about the fact that these links are not acknowledged,

it's very symbolic for the king to be even looking at this. Perhaps he's looking, I'm sure, at a long timetable when he'll get the information about the royal's links to slavery and then decide what to do. But what he does will be hugely significant and closely watched. Laura Trevelyan, so great to have you on Woman's Hour. Thanks so much for joining us. Let me turn now to another story. I mentioned this headline that I saw yesterday. A 19-year-old who stabbed another teenager to death in a quiet Somerset town was found guilty of murder.

Joshua Del Bono stabbed 16-year-old Charlie Bates. It was in Radstock, Somerset, on 31st of July last year. But there's something extraordinary about this. It was Del Bono's mother, Donna, who called the police and told them her son had killed Charlie. I want you to listen to the 999 call that she made. Police emergency, what's your location? Higher out in Froome.

OK, and what's happening? My son's killed someone. What's your location? Hi, I'm in Froome. Okay. And what's happening? My son's killed someone. Okay. All right. Okay. Can you tell me where? It was at Radstock earlier.

He's just come back. I've just found out he's in my house now, but I can't let him go anywhere. Does he know you're on the phone? Yeah, he's here. I've got to do it. Isn't that quite something to hear that? It was a very serious crime, obviously, and it made that decision for Donna Del Bono. But I'm wondering also, for you listening,

if it came to other issues of breaking the law, of whatever severity, I don't know, drink driving, for example, or maybe assault. Would you call the police on your child? Have you? What was that decision like? I'm joined now by former Detective Superintendent Shabnam Chowdhury and also former Conservative MP, parent and now criminal barrister, Anna Soubry. You're both so welcome. Anna, first to you.

What do you make when you hear that call and also the ensuing case, which, of course, he was sentenced yesterday? Remarkable, isn't it? I think the thing that really struck me was that when the mother goes, Donna goes, I've told him he's got to do it. I.e. we've got to report this to the police. So he's come home. He's presumably admitted it to his mum. I don't think he gave her the full story. It doesn't matter.

And then she said to him, come on, lad, we've got to do the right thing here and we've got to ring the police. That's a great deal easier. Of course, it's not easy. But then when somebody comes home, your child comes home and you think something terrible

has happened they don't admit it to you and then but you because you've heard some appeal from the police you have your suspicions and you call the police to say I think it's my son or it's my daughter that is incredibly difficult but the right thing to do is your public duty in such a serious, serious matter. I think it's more difficult when it's not quite as serious, nevertheless serious. Like drink driving, I thought was a very good example of that. What do you do then the next morning when you think, hang on, my son or daughter has been driving. This morning they've got a filthy hangover. They've driven whilst drunk.

I don't think I would, in those circumstances, call the police. I think I'd give a very firm warning and have a very tough conversation and say, if you ever do that again, I will not hesitate to call the police. You know, some people have got in touch already, Anna and Shabnam. Let me see. I don't have names, which we can understand, of course. They're giving them to us anonymous. One is, I reported my son immediately

when he told me he had been involved in a serious violent assault. Not only did I have an obligation to do this, in the long run, the outcome was better for my son. I made him go with me to the police, where he then admitted his involvement. As a result, his sentence was less severe. I should say the sentence for the case we're talking about was actually life, but minimum 21 years for Del Bono. Another, I phoned the police and my son spent the night in police cells on two occasions during his teens.

I still feel the guilt. It was traumatic for both of us. The police were brilliant. My son is now a law-abiding, wonderful adult. Shabnam, on that case and also some of those stories you're hearing from our listeners, I'm just wondering, how common is it for a parent to turn their kid into the police?

I think, as Anna said, this particular situation was actually quite remarkable. I wouldn't say it was common, but obviously your callers are coming in to say what they've done. In my experience what would happen was as a superintendent we'd have to do sort of authority levels to extend somebody's detention and we'd have young children in there or you know

kids, juveniles and the parents would come in and there was a real mixed reaction from some parents. Some were absolutely livid that their children were involved in any form of criminality and they thought so you to throw the key and throw the key away and lock them up for days and really you only have really they would say keep them there for 24 hours or 48 hours teach them a lesson but obviously we didn't have the powers to do that but it was actually really refreshing to get that sort of a reaction because we want parents to have some form of ownership and responsibility for their children but equally on the other side of the coin we would have parents that were at the end of their tether because their children were consistently involved in whether it's antisocial

behavior whether it's low-level crime uh whether it's low-level drugs or whichever, but crimes actually affect families and communities. And you'd get to the stage where some parents just wouldn't come in because they were there so often. It would mean taking time off work. It would mean trying to find somebody else to come in and help out and be the appropriate adult. And they kind of wash their hands off them. So there's a real mixed bag there of how parents would react. But I think one of the key issues here is when you look at the seriousness of the offence that's involved, and when you look at stuff

where there's violence involved and there's parents who've got young children and then those children, they're actually harming as young as those kids themselves. Parents have real compassion and they put themselves in those shoes. How would I feel if that was my son or daughter that had been violently abused or to this degree murdered? Absolutely awful situation to be finding themselves in.

Shabnam, I'm wondering what you think as well, coming back to that drink driving hypothetical scenario, because, of course, you are putting somebody else's life at risk if you do that. Do you think there's a moral obligation as a parent to report that? There is a moral obligation,

but I think, as Anna said, there's a big difference between a moral obligation and what they, protecting your own child and defending them. And I think on some occasions that you might give them a first a second or a third chance by the time you got to

the third chance you know that this is a serious serious problem and that you have got to do something as a parent instead of just threatening to say I'm going to call the police you've got to do the here and the now so that you know that they actually understand the level and the now so that, you know, that they actually understand the level and the seriousness of what they're actually, you know, driven drives, cost lives, as they say. Yes. 84844, if what you're hearing from Anna and Shabnam has got you thinking. Another message that came in, Anna, what about this? I forced my 18-year-old son to leave our home as he was using and storing drugs. The phone rang while he was upstairs. It was the police inquiring after him. So I told them he was there

and they picked him up when he left. He had drugs on him and was prosecuted and then tagged. He's never really forgiven me, though we do thankfully still have a relationship. Yeah, and I must say I'm back at the criminal bar, so I've come back to my old job. One of the things

that strikes me about when you are representing, I defend it, I don't ask you, but when you're representing youngsters who have got themselves into a terrible state through the abuse of drugs, the number of times where you meet their parents and they say, look, we couldn't stand it any longer. And I think people often are quite shocked to know, you you know how an addiction to drugs can affect a whole family and i've had parents who've talked about we put locks on every single bedroom door because he not always he but he or she would would steal from their own brothers and sisters they would steal our jewelry or our bits and bobs they would even steal from their

grandmothers and i'm sure shabnam knows this as well parents who've said our lad was living in a shed i've had uh clients like that he's living in a shed in the garden the parents can't put up with it anymore but then they reach a point of absolute no return and that's often when they have a good relationship with their local police and between them the parent has to make that call that says, we can't stand this any longer. Effectively, it's a cry for help from the parent. The child is then properly charged. And then the whole system kicks in to try and assist them if they want that assistance. And you could actually say, isn't it a tragedy that we can't intervene before somebody actually has to pick up the phone

and ring the police about their own child. Shabnam? I think the other thing sorry sorry go on go ahead Shabnam. Sorry yeah no I absolutely agree I think it comes to the point where you get to the end of your tether we had so many when I was in policing where young children would be stealing from their grandparents they'd go around on the pretext that they wanted to help them out and clean up and so on and grandparents are vulnerable they're so happy to see their grandchildren have no idea of what's going on and it'll be months before the parents actually find out what this child has done and I think sometimes it gets to that stage where they think this enough is enough. I think it's really, really important.

I'm not a parent, but I think you've got to dish out tough love because whilst that young man who's never forgiven his mother, when he becomes a parent himself, he'll have a different view on it. And I think that is sometimes what actually it takes for a child to get to becoming a parent themselves and think the penny's finally dropped and now I get it. I'm wondering as well Anna particularly as a criminal barrister is it a different parental obligation if there is substance abuse whether that's drink or drugs as opposed to for. Obviously, the case of murder is the most severe example that we're talking about this morning. But I know they're stealing, obviously, as you mentioned,

but is it different? It is, but it isn't. I mean, wrongdoing is wrongdoing. But I think when drugs are involved, you know, you this this child of yours and and you see the effect it has on them physically and mentally so you've got that emotional anguish anyway to see your child you see it as their self their harm self-harm but of course there's all the other things within a family but so that is an additional thing

whereas if a child come your child comes home where's a child that could be up to the age of whatever and you believe that they they are the perpetrator of an awful attack on somebody else then obviously that there is almost to me it's a no-brainer you have to go to the police you have to do your public duty and many don't and and actually will harborbour the offender, assist them, burning clothes and so on. But I think, if I may say, the really, really tough decision is when you think your child is in an abusive relationship.

In other words, they are a victim of crime. They are in denial about that and say, oh, but I love him and all the rest of it. I think then that is exceedingly difficult as a parent it's a bit beyond our discussion about you know when you step in when you believe your child has done something wrong it's equally very difficult if you believe your child is the victim especially of an abusive relationship but that's really tough but it is really parents i suppose bumping up against their kids and law enforcement and trying to find navigate their way through that, that absolute minefield.

Really interesting. Thank you both for joining us. Anna Soubry and also Shabnam Chowdhury. Let me see, a message came in. My sister, my family's, we're talking about sisters as well. The effect your sisters had on you and siblings. My sister was 10 years older than me. She sadly passed away from cancer aged 37. I'll be 35 this year.

And I keep her in mind frequently. I'm writing a list of 100 things to do before I turn 37. Some mundane, some more adventurous. My sister always encouraged me to buy the biscuits, go to the concert, don't work so hard. I love the sound of your sister. I can't say I always follow that advice, but her influence has certainly encouraged me to live my life to its full potential.

And that's from Charlie. Thank you, Charlie, for getting in touch. I want to turn now. I'm sure you've heard the name Emmeline Pankhurst, who was a leading figure in the suffragette movement, which called for the right for women to vote.

But what about Kitty Marshall? Do you know that name? One of Mrs. Pankhurst's bodyguards? Emmeline Godfrey's new book, Mrs Pankhurst's Bodyguard, shines a light on Kitty Marshall and others and how Kitty helped Mrs Pankhurst evade the clutches of the authorities

as a member of the Women's Social and Political Union's elite team. Yeah, called the bodyguard. To find out more about her, I have Emmeline Godfrey with me now. Emmeline, good to have you with us. I love the namesake. I know it's spelled differently, but similar.

Yeah, yeah. I'm actually kind of secretly a bit proud of that link. And there's actually, there are a couple of Emmelines in the book. There's not just Mrs. Pankhurst, there's also Emmeline Pethick-Lawrence. So it feels like a really nice connection. And I've always been drawn to the suffragettes as a topic.

So, yeah, so for me, it feels quite special. Yes, I love it. So let's talk about Kitty, an extraordinary character. What was it, do you think, for her that she kind of became this pivotal figure, really, about the suffragists and social justice and part of this bodyguard? Well Kitty herself grew up and she had a very large family and obviously the program today has been about siblings and similar relationships and her sister she was very close to her sisters she did sports with them and she grew up in

Lancashire and her father was the local reverend there. And he was very socially and politically engaged. I mean, he was very much into helping those around him. So just after, you know, Baseljet, he worked on the water system in London. Her father campaigned quite heavily for better systems in the Manchester and Lancashire areas and for better water supplies. And also her mother, Caroline Augusta, was a much loved local figure. And she set up Sunday schools and Kitty obviously helped her with all of this work too. And you can actually see her when you go to Brendel Church. There are these memorials up to Caroline Augusta, huge, huge

windows. So it's a lady who played a huge role in the local life. And Kitty herself, you know, she became interested in the suffragettes quite early on. So she attended a large dinner with actually George Bernard Shaw and various other, it's like a sort of who's who of the Edwardian era um 200 people and she attended that and then she about went to one meeting after the next and then um she became very good friends with Mrs Pancras quite early on I think perhaps their Manchester connections the fact that both of them had lawyers um as as husbands I think that may well have drawn them to each other too another key point was Kitty actually had a disastrous first marriage. And I think that's something that really spurred her on to join the movement.

She doesn't actually mention this in her memoir, which is kept at the Museum of London. It's worth a look. In fact, the Museum of London is actually preparing an exhibition area on Kitty, which includes her jewellery. And so that's really exciting to see that that's happening. There's a lot about her. There's a lot about this.

I mean, it's kind of the intersection of Kitty and the bodyguard with the police officers at the time as well. You know, one thing I know they were meant to be six foot. I was thinking with their helmets, of course, they're probably like six foot six. And a lot of these women were very small. There were some that were like talked about at four foot ten or five foot. So just to kind of set up that image for my listeners. But they went out and they were incredibly creative in what they tried to do to evade the authorities. They were, there was the cat and

mouse act. Perhaps you could explain that for our listeners to kind of set up that. What sort of relationship would we call it between the two? Well, it's interesting you mentioned police officers and height because the book is actually

shadowed by the autobiography of Ralph Kitchener and he joined the special branch and he was so concerned about his height because he thought he wouldn't get in. He was just short of the height and he actually, every morning when he was so concerned about his height because he thought he wouldn't get in he was just short of the height and he actually every morning when he was training for his interview he was trying to stretch himself and actually what got him through was in fact his skills his interest in languages and he became very passionate about the special branch and

actually interestingly about votes for women and this was really interesting in his autobiography. He talks very warmly of the women he arrested, that they had a sort of understanding that, you know, under the Cat and Mouse Act, I'm meant to arrest you and I'm meant to be arrested. OK, fine, we'll agree to be arrested on this occasion. So that does kind of happen with these agreements. But yeah, the Cat and Mouse Act. So that was passed in 1913. And in fact, this month actually sees the 110th anniversary of the passing of that act and it was designed by reginald mckenna and he was the architect of it and he felt that what was happening

in prison was there were a number of women who were hunger striking and getting very ill and they were really worried about martyrs being created so the idea was that the women would be released for around about two weeks or so to recover sufficiently um i at home or at a sympathizer's house and then after that you know they'd actually have to say to the authorities which house they were going to be and after that they were meant to go back to jail and see at the end of their jail time but that's many women did not want to do that so they kind of flitted from one house to another which um which they were kind of um yeah i mean master disguisers and whatnot as we see as well like actual decoys which kitty did for mrs pankhurst at times as well to evade the police but you know i really want to tell our listeners or get you to tell our listeners about the

suffragettu oh yes as we're calling it so they became trained in martial arts as another tool in their toolbox as they came up against the authorities oh yeah and it was interesting because I mean martial arts and suffragettes the the public were kind of used to those two ideas coming together by around 1913 before the bodyguard and its use of martial arts was formed but what happened was in 1913 when we have the formation of the bodyguard was that this became a much more organized process so you had Edith Garrett who was one of the star jiu-jitsu teachers she had taught women in children's classes and she was given that role of being the bodyguard trainer and what was quite

was quite amusing sometimes is that the officers would you know if they suspected somebody of smashing windows they'd knock on the door and then they'd say right okay we're after so and so and Edith Garrett would say we're having a jiu-jitsu lesson for ladies here how dare you enter and then the officers would go away and go oh okay sorry madam so they had the tactics there as well but also the disguises. I mean, it's brilliant. In fact, Kitty actually not only trained in the martial arts, but she actually had a fantastic wardrobe

and she gave a number of younger suffragettes her clothing so she would dress them out in motor veils. And one of her friends actually dressed up as Kitty herself and her husband pretended to be the husband of her friend and then they sort of got her across the channel so she could give Miss Cristobal Pankhurst the information she needed to bring out the Suffragette magazine which was banned and there's a lovely little incident of because Kitty actually lived very very close to Reginald McKenna himself who was the creator of The Cat on My Side so when her friend Grace Rowe turns up and she's on the run from the police,

she said, oh my gosh, where do I go? Knock on Kitty's house. He gets in, she gets in quickly and Arthur pays the taxi, you know, just very, very calmly. And he said, Grace Rowe, there's a warrant out for your arrest. And at the same time, they're trying to dodge Reginald McKenna and the police officers guarding his house virtually across the road. And that's just one thing I love about history

is these things coming together. It is lovely. And the backdrop of London is fantastic as well. Thank you so much for giving us some of the historical anecdotes. That's Emmeline Godfrey. Wonderful to have you on. Mrs Pankhurst Bodyguard is her book that is out now.

I want to thank all of you for joining me on Woman's Hour. That's it from me for this week. I'll see you Monday, but join Anita Ranney for tomorrow's programme. She'll be talking to a cosmetic gynaecologist and a psychotherapist about the rising number of women that are opting for

labiaplasty. So tune in for that and I'll see you Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Anita Arnand and over the next 10 episodes for BBC Radio 4, we're going to be exploring a somewhat tricky title, Princess. Join me as I speak to guests like the comedian Sharpat Korsandi and presenter Charlene White about their favourite princesses. We're going to be unpacking scandalous and fabulous

legacies, sharing the stories behind some of the most incredible princesses in history. Join me, Anita Arnand, for Princess on BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.