Woman's Hour - Diane Morgan, Clinic Investigation, Divorce

Episode Date: April 15, 2022

The actor, writer and comedian Diane Morgan. She started her career as a stand-up but you may know her best as the ill-informed interviewer Philomena Cunk, or laid back Liz in the parenting sitcom Motherland, or even Kath in Ricky’s Gervais series After Life. She’s also written, directed and starred in her own comedy series Mandy about a woman who's got big dreams but can’t be bothered to do the work to get there, and whose short lived jobs are a disaster. Now she's in Inside Number 9 on BBC 2. Police in Northern Ireland are investigating a clinic in Belfast which claims to help infertile couples have a baby. The police investigation follows a BBC Northern Ireland documentary called The Babymaker Uncovered. The clinic is called Logan Wellbeing and Medical and is run by Ruth Ellen Logan who claims that she was trained in America. She's been offering treatments like massage and reflexology, as well a IV drips and vitamin injections. Women who are desperate for a child, including some who are medically menopausal, have spent thousands. We speak to reporter, Jennifer O’Leary and fertility expert Professor Alison Murdoch.In the second part of our new series on divorce, our reporter Henrietta Harrison meets Amina who talks about the impact it's had not just on her but on her parents too.And we talk to Kate Jayden who's completed 100 marathons in 100 days. She was raising money for charity and describes what kept her putting one foot in front of the other.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Chloe Tilley. Welcome to Woman's Air from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. Good to have you with us on this Good Friday. Now, for some couples wanting to start a family, fertility treatment becomes part of the journey, with people investing a lot of time, a lot of money and hope in the process. Well, we'll bring you a BBC Northern Ireland investigation that's uncovered a practice which has charged thousands of pounds, promised success and administered drugs that aren't designed for

fertility treatment from a woman with no medical qualifications. We'll also be talking about the fact that one in ten teachers are being forced to take a second job to make ends meet and some are turning to food banks, according to the teachers union, the NASUWT. Well, we'll be speaking to a teacher who lives with her parents because she can't afford rent. We'll also bring you the next instalment of our series on life after divorce, following the introduction of the no-fault divorce. One woman tells us the impact it's had, not just on herself, but also her parents, but also how she's got fitter as a result and the hilarious diane morgan is going to be here with me in the studio the actor and comedian from motherland and afterlife is in a new series of the bbc's inside

number nine and i'll also be catching up with the ultra marathon runner who's just broken the world record for running a hundred marathons in 100 days. Kate Jaden wanted to raise money for refugee charities, and she's run the distance, which is the equivalent from Aleppo in Syria to here in the UK. And also, there's one thing I want to draw your attention to. It's a big talking point of the week this week. It's been the comments made by the Northern Ireland football manager, Kenny Shieldss saying women footballers concede more goals in a short space of time because they are more emotional than men that's direct quote he said it happens right throughout the whole spectrum of the women's game because girls and women are more emotional

than men so they take a goal not a goal going in not very well Shields has apologised and has been defended by his Northern Ireland captain Marissa Call Callaghan. She said the comments came in the context of a team meeting they'd had where they discussed the issue. But it got us thinking, who's more emotional in your family? Is it the men or the women, the girls or the boys? Do you want to share that with us this morning? It'd be great if you would, whether that's in sport, watching a film or when things start to fall apart, who gets their emotions to spill out to all of the family and who keeps them very firmly bottled up we want to know about the tears the anger the passion this morning you can text womansour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media it's at

bbc womansour or of course you can email us through our website but let's begin talking about the police in Northern Ireland who are investigating a clinic in Belfast which claims to help infertile couples have a baby. The police investigation follows a BBC Northern Ireland documentary called The Babymaker Uncovered. The clinic is called Logan Wellbeing and Medical and it's run by Ruth Ellen Logan,

who claims that she was trained in America. She's been offering treatments like massage and reflexology, as well as IV drips and vitamin injections. Women who are desperate for a child, including some who are medically menopausal, have spent thousands of pounds. Well, in a moment, we'll speak to the fertility expert, Professor Alison Murdoch. But first, we're joined by Jennifer O'Leary, the investigative journalist with BBC Spotlight Northern Ireland who uncovered this story. Good morning, Jennifer. Morning, Chloe. So first of all, just explain to us, how did you become aware of what was going on at Logan Wellbeing and Medical?

Well, I received a tip off about the clinic and that led me to making contact with a former patient and eventually other sources who were all raising issues in the public interest. When we met with a former staff member at the clinic called Orla Kelly, that allowed us to investigate the clinic from another angle. Now there were others I spoke to off camera who opened up other avenues for us to investigate. So talk us through if you would the procedures that Ruth Ellen Logan claimed to use to treat infacility. I'm just wondering how she was getting access to these medicines and to the treatments. Yeah so she offered a treatment protocol that combined wellness treatments like massage and reflexology in parallel with the so-called medical side, which included

intravenous therapy, essentially IV drips and vitamin injections. And here's how it worked, Chloe. Ruth Ellen Logan would see the potential patients for a consultation where she'd take them through a general health form. And then she carried out what she described as a diagnostic assessment, which included assessing their ovarian activity just by touching their lower abdominal area. And then she designed a treatment protocol to be carried out by a team of trained assistants or nurses in terms of the IV drips and vitamin injections. But here's the thing. Some of those IV drips and vitamin injections included prescription-only components such as dexamethasone. Now, that's a powerful steroid, and there are medical risks to taking it if you're trying to get pregnant. The very reason, of course, why patients were at that clinic.

Now, we uncovered that she had access to order drugs for a time via a doctor based in England, and then more recently via a remote nurse prescriber based in another part of Northern Ireland. So the former patients who featured in your investigation are understandably anonymous. I'm just wondering how difficult it was for them, not only to tell their story story but I'm wondering if there's also an element of shame that they feel, not that they should but that they do feel. Yeah it was very difficult you know fertility is a deeply personal and private issue and it was compounded by the fact that they had not shared their fertility challenges beyond their partners. The woman that we referred to as Linda in the programme underwent a decade of fertility treatment and no one beyond her husband knows that.

Now to protect Linda's identity her words are voiced by an actor but here Linda talks about her first consultation with Ruth Ellen Logan. In the first appointment, she promised that she would have a baby for us and that she would find the problem. Why did you believe what she was saying to you was credible? She was medically trained and she was a fertility specialist. She worked closely with all the doctors and I had no reason to ever doubt her. I just thought it was our answer to everything. Now Chloe as part of a statement Spotlight received from Logan Wellbeing and Medical we were told highly defamatory

and inaccurate claims have been made by former clients and staff, but that the clinic's confidentiality obligations prevent any comment. Now, the former patients we interviewed handed over thousands of pounds to a clinic they believed was credible. They never used the word shame, but they are profoundly hurt by the experience. Now, this facility, as we said,

is based in Northern Ireland, but it was visited by couples from across the UK. So there facility as we said is based in Northern Ireland but it was visited by couples from across the UK so there is that wider impact. Do we know how many patients could be affected? Yeah much wider impact as you said and I only learned of that after the programme went out and when former patients started to contact me. I don't know yet the number of patients who have been affected but what I do know is that a private support group has been set up online and that has over 500 members to date. And even though it's private, of course, it's likely that many more will choose not to join that group. And what do you know about what's happening in the clinic right now? Well, the investigation ultimately exposed what was

happening there. And we know that the sign has been taken down. We know that it appears that the work at the clinic has been put on pause. The blinds are down. There doesn't seem to be any staff working there. But of course, that may change. Have you been approached by more women since the release of your investigation? Absolutely. Every day in all, over 100 women so far and a number of men have contacted me since the programme went out. Now, we haven't looked into their individual stories, but what they say appears to resonate with many other experiences at that particular clinic. And the one thing that comes across from them all is a deep sense of hurt and shock. And some have chosen to contact the police and a police investigation is underway.

Well, thank you for explaining that to us. That's Jennifer O'Leary, the investigative journalist with BBC Spotlight Northern Ireland, who uncovered that story. And the documentary is called The Babymaker Uncovered. It's available to watch now on BBC iPlayer wherever you are in the UK. Well, as I said in our introduction, we're now joined by fertility expert Professor Alison Murdoch to look at this in more detail. Professor Murdoch, what did you think when you first came across the practices by Ruth Ellen Logan? Have you seen anything like this before? No, I think this is a complete exception.

I mean, I saw the undercover consultation and to be honest, it was horrifying. I think the claims that were being made were, they were just not substantiated at all. I'd be careful what I say because to my understanding is that there are potential legal police investigations going to follow. And rightly so, I think. I would like to say, though, that we can be careful not to condemn all complementary therapies, because there's no doubt that there are a lot of a lot of patients that will find benefit from some of them.

But they are complementary, which means that you are ideally going to see your doctor, your clinic to get a proper diagnosis, a proper understanding of what the problems are with a treatment plan. If you then decide to have a complementary therapy alongside the conventional therapy and you feel that's going to give you some benefit, and in many cases it will give benefit, it might make you feel more relaxed, less stressed during the procedure, then that's absolutely fine. But it should be done alongside the clinic work. So tell your doctor what's being offered, what's being done.

If you're not sure about whether to go for complementary therapy, ask your doctor. They might be able to advise you what sort of things might be most helpful in your particular case but also absolutely if if someone is going to give you medications intravenous injections be really careful what it is that you're taking and make sure that the person who's giving it to you is qualified to give it to you and and if you're going to have any anything intravenously or and like that it should be on your medical records that you're having that too, because there can be long term consequences that need to be looked at as well. What did you make of Ruth Ellen Logan's use of dexamethasone has any benefit whatsoever in treating or increasing the chances of success rate with infertility. There are the HFEA, Human Fertilization and Biology Authority, will give guidelines as to what treatments can be advised alongside conventional therapy. British Fertility Society will give you the same sort of advice.

There is no evidence that dexamethasone will help. Added to which, dexamethasone is actually a very powerful drug. There are side effects from it. It's not something that you can take without medical supervision. And I think you need to be very careful that you're not actually potentially doing yourself harm by taking particularly large doses of dexamethasone. There was also the claim made by Ruth Ellen Logan

that she could test if someone had polycystic ovaries or fallopian tube of adhesion just by doing an abdominal examination with her hands. What do you make of that? It's probably virtually impossible. I mean, most polycystic ovaries you would diagnose on a scan. An ovary might be, polycystic ovary might be twice the normal size, but it's got to be several times greater than that before, even in a thin woman, you would feel the ovary in the abdomen. And even then,

you can't tell that it's a polycystic ovary. You can only tell it's an enlarged ovary. Massage tends to be related to massaging muscles. Once you start massaging the abdomen, this is a soft tissue. We don't normally massage them. When the doctor puts the hands on your abdomen, you're palpating to feel for abnormalities gently. You're not massaging in the same way. But the idea that you can diagnose tubal problems, ovarian problems, even small fibroids on abdominal palpation alone is just not correct. How can this be prevented from happening in the future? Is this is this about tightening laws within the fertility sector? This is not really specific to the fertility centre. This is to do with complementary therapy and alternative therapies and how they are managed.

And there's been a lot of debate about this over the years about how it should be regulated. And the reality is that it's almost impossible because it's such a diverse field. I say the advice is from patients is first to get the diagnosis from your doctor, talk to your doctor. But if you decide to go for any of this sort of medicaid of any of this sort of therapy um before seeing anyone then google it um find out what people are saying about it um check the claims if the claims seem to be unbelievable they probably are unbelievable um by definition complementary therapies alternative therapies are things that do not have any evidence of proven benefit in terms of treatment, in terms of success rate with IVF. If they were, the chances are they might be available on the NHS and they're not available on the NHS because there's no evidence of proven benefit. So you just, by the way, is probably the better definition saying we need more legislation.

Thank you so much for joining us this morning on Woman's Hour. That's Professor Alison Murdoch there. She is a fertility expert. Are you getting in touch this this morning about the comments made by the Northern Ireland women's football manager saying that women are more emotional than men? This was after he looked at their sides, the number of goals that had gone in in quick succession after conceding one goal. He has since apologised. Msvani has got in touch. She's tweeted, say more emotional than men.

They obviously haven't seen a man in a meltdown when his DIY bookshelves fall off the wall. I'm guessing you're speaking from personal experience there. Thanks for getting in touch. Elsia says, my dad is really emotional. I take after him. I'm a girl. I think it's personality more than sex and carol says good morning my husband can often be found filling up

during the emotional bits of films tv programs or documentaries that we watch as a family i've got the timing of my dry comment are you crying yet babes down to a fine art nine times out of ten he will be moist eyed uh those coming. Thank you for getting in touch with us. It's 84844 on the text or at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, let me give you some figures. One in ten teachers have taken a second job. And 54% of the 11,000 teachers polled by their union, the NASUWT, are cutting back on spending on food. Some teachers say they've even been forced to turn to food banks or other charitable assistance and seven in ten teachers have

considered leaving their jobs in the last year. Well the NASUWT are having their annual conference this weekend and they're warning that an unprecedented recruitment and retention crisis is imminent unless there's a significant pay rise for teachers. Well, we can speak now to Anna, who's a primary school teacher who's currently having to live with her parents. Good morning, Anna. Good morning. So presumably this is down to cash flow. It is. It's as simple as that. I live in a particularly affluent area. I live in Surrey where house prices and rent prices are extortionate um I'm very lucky that my lovely parents have agreed to put me up but it just seems um a bit ridiculous that somebody who you know has professional qualifications um and is in a professional job can't afford to live

um in the area that they that they teach it just seems yeah crazy and there's no waiting system to make up for the fact that the part of the country you live in is more expensive no so you get um obviously waiting in in london um surrey you do get uh slightly more increased pay but not enough to um make up for the fact that as they rent to extortionate in my local town I read in the local paper this week that the average house price in my town is over 600,000 pounds I've been teaching for three years and I'm on less than 30 grand at the moment and now I know you know it's wonderful and it's amazing and it's very privileged to be anywhere near 30,000 pounds um but there's just no hope there is no hope of me ever um certainly never buying in this

area but I'm I'm wondering whether I need to leave the area entirely um and then you know you get a situation where you have no teachers in the area are you having similar conversations with your colleagues at school yes so a lot um certainly we're coming to the time of year where teachers have to sort of decide what they're going to do in september and i know a lot of colleagues are looking getting out they're looking at different options to either supplement their wage or looking to get out entirely because the level of stress, the responsibility that you have as a teacher, the number of hours that you do that you don't get compensated for, you know, when you have to, when you boil it down to the figures, it doesn't make sense. The job doesn't make sense. I work 50 hour plus a week.

I always work at weekends and full time. I always work at weekends in order to keep up with the workload. And yet, I'm contracted and paid for 32, I think it is, hours a week. So even if I was paid for the number of hours that I have to do to keep up that would be something you know if I did a 50-hour week in a banking job in London I'd be laughing but you know for a lot of my working week I'm working for free do you feel valued because I'm looking at your face now and you just look exasperated and frustrated. Yeah, it does. Now, I came to this career later. It's not my first

career. I came to it because I'm passionate about children. I'm passionate about education. And I love my job. When people ask me, you know, I sit and I moan about my job and they're like, well, why do you do it? It's it's an absolute joy and a privilege to do my job. But. Monetary wise, no, I don't feel valued at all when I do my job. I'm not just a teacher. I'm a teacher. I'm a counsellor. I'm a social worker. I'm the school nurse. You know, there's the job is not just teaching kids to add up and to read. It's a whole holistic vocational job. And I don't think certainly the government recognises that. Now, my school, I know, recognise that, you know, I feel valued at school, but it's not it's not them that set the salaries let me read you a statement which we've got from the department of education and we now have over 460 000 inspiring teachers in our classrooms across the country which is 20 000 more than in 2010 our latest proposals on teacher

pay sets out how we will deliver a 30 000 pounds starting salary for teachers by 2023-24, as well as the highest experienced teacher pay awards since 2006 in 2022-23. We understand that the rising cost of living is a concern to people across the country. We continue to balance rewarding teachers for their hard work and attracting the brightest and the best into the profession with a pay system that is appropriate and affordable for the taxpayer. How do you respond to that um i think it's great that they want to raise the uh starting salary to 30 grand i think you're right that would um attract you know it's more attractive if that's the starting salary um what does worry me is that that doesn't filter down into the upper pay scale. So as you move through the pay scales, that actual pay increase decreases, which means you're not valuing or rewarding those

really experienced teachers that are, they're just incredible. The skill that I see in some of my experienced colleagues is just, it's insurmountable. And I think it's a kick in the teeth for them to say, well, you know, we'll just keep recruiting teachers at 30 grand, but we're not going to recognise your skill and your commitment to the job as well. And then so then you risk, you know, losing all that skill. And I think that that's a real shame. It's the retention issue as well. Anna, thank you so much for getting in touch with us.

And, you know, it's worth noting nearly 70% of teachers are women. So this is really a story that is impacting people. Amanda has got in touch with us. She says, as a nurse, my colleagues and I, most of whom have a degree

and less in general than teachers and are using food banks too and are leaving the profession and the NHS as they can't afford to pay rent in cities like London. The point is the government needs to review all public sector pay, not just teachers, to make it possible for staff to find public sector jobs viable.

Otherwise, we're all in trouble. Without the public sector, who will take care of you when you're ill, teach your kids or anything else that keeps life moving forward? Amanda, thank you for getting in touch with us you can share your thoughts now at bbc women's out on social media or you can text 84844 now 42 percent of marriages end in divorce and the aim of the no fault divorce which was introduced on the 6th of april in england and wales is to reduce the conflict when they do. We've been talking on Woman's Hour about life after divorce and a woman that we're calling Amina, like our reporter

Henrietta Harrison, has been through it and wanted to tell her story. They met at Amina's home. It hadn't been good for a long time but I was in it for the kids to make sure that the kids had a stable life and that they were happy. But it was clear that life at home was getting very difficult for the kids too. But really, the straw that broke the camel's back was me getting evidence that perhaps he had spent the night in a hotel with another woman. And I suspected that sort of thing for a long time. But suddenly having that there, and I thought, my goodness me, like, how many more signs do I need that this isn't right anymore? So that was it. Honestly, in that moment, I was done.

Sure you don't want some stuff, right? I will just smells so good you mind no not at all the broccoli's a bit overcooked do you like being mistress of your own house yeah definitely this is my domain Amina used to have one of those wow kitchens, you know, a hob in the centre of the granite island, all of that. Now her kitchen is tiny and she loves it. She moved out of the family home in 2020 after a three year divorce process for both of us. When the toxicity of a broken marriage started to spill out and affect the children it was over the silliest thing would trigger a big row and so what was supposed to be happy family day would turn into slamming doors and and me trying to get the kids upstairs, and tears. It looked like we lived a happy, busy, bustly, blessed, privileged life.

But the moment the front door was shut, it was really difficult being together. I'd been so blind, actually, to how much it was affecting the kids, because I believed that we needed to be together for the kids. When it did become apparent, my son was suffering from mental health. I took him to get counselling and she called us in and we had conversations

and that was a moment where I thought, goodness me, this is really hurting my boy. I didn't realise that my boy's problems were associated with that you know and then I spoke to my girl too and when I first gave her a space to speak all the stuff came out and I think it all just sort of came to a head within three months and then I found that piece of paper and then it was like what am I doing this needs to end were you still having sex in your marriage no and sex was a bargaining chip for him I loved him I wanted to have sex with him he didn't want no I was not he

withheld sex from he withheld sex yeah And there were all sorts of reasons why, but really the reason was he knew that it tortured me. But he was okay. So he must have been getting something somewhere, right? He was having sex elsewhere, you think? He must have been. I mean, I can't imagine he wasn't. Why did you want to share your story with Woman's Hour? What was the motivation?

Someone hears my story and thinks that sounds like what I am going through and realises that you don't have to put up with it and all this stuff that you've put up with it's true and I feared it and it happened that the divorce process itself was very difficult but you've been in training for this because you've been suffering and bearing and enduring for the longest time but this time you're suffering and enduring and bearing for yourself and there is light at the end of the tunnel. It can happen that you can be free, free of drama, of worry, of dread. Free of dread is such an amazing thing.

And it is possible and you're allowed and you can dream of it and you should have it. So don't feel like there is no choice. There is always a choice. Lawyers do get a bad rap, don't they? I would get off the phone from my lawyer and I would have been on the phone for, say, half an hour and I'd get off the phone thinking, oh my goodness, I've spent more in the last half an hour than I earn in a day. But you feel like your lawyer was worth every penny. Absolutely. She was attentive and detail-focused and had a clarity of mind, which I needed in those spaces where I didn't have clarity of mind.

She was really reassuring. She had a full, comprehensive idea of the protocols and systems that were in place that I could use to protect me. He was a foe. When you're faced with a foe like that, you need a really good army behind you. And she was an amazing general. Did you speak about how you were feeling about your emotions with her or was it all very much paperwork, finances? Quite a lot of the difficulty in the beginning was the emotional turmoil. So in the beginning, for sure, there was a lot of talk around emotions and there's a lot of reassurance from her that this happens, this was expected, this can be managed and it will be managed. For me, it wasn't phone

calls, it was emails, certain number of pounds per email. So over time, as my emotions calmed down, and I became less responsive to every provocation, you know, I started counting the emails I did send out. But everything I got back from her was absolutely worth it. I needed it. I needed in the moment to be reassured that this big task I'd embarked on, I wasn't free falling. I was supported. How supportive have your family been? They loved him too. He was very much a member of their family. I would say we were loved equally. My ex was a very charming man and he cultivated relationships with my parents. So it had been difficult for me to let on to them quite how difficult he was with me. My dad was immediately, well, no, this needs to end. If that's what you need, nobody needs to put up with that. So your dad immediately had your back and was loyal to you?

Immediately. He was extraordinary. I'm overcome. He couldn't have been a better support. Your mum found the divorce difficult. Yes, I think it was a much more difficult, bitter pill for her to swallow. I'm not trying to suggest that she didn't support me. That's not what I'm saying at all. Not to say that divorce is not allowed in Islam, but it's not about Islam. It's about the community. You know, there's a difference. It's difficult for my mum because it's not about Islam. It's about the community. You know, there's a difference.

It's difficult for my mum because it's not something that she wanted for me either. The tropes that we have about the sad old spinster was not something that she wanted for me. But also because the community directed their attention at her and she had to bat them off. because the community directed their attention at her, and she had to bat them off. You know, in a moment in space where she was also in grief and she was also trying to make sense, what she needed from me was for me to help her reframe her experience of my life. So she wanted me to regurgitate all of the inequities or difficulties

or cruelties that I had faced. And she wanted to know what had been going on in the background of events when she was there. But by the time I'd come to the point where I was done, you know, I had processed that stuff and I didn't want to go through that again. But she needed to go through that again. And so we were sort of tussling with this. Mom, I don't want to talk about it. No, but what happened? No, but tell me again. You know, what was the moment? What was the time? What was the day? You know, because she needed this to make sense of it. It did not make sense to her because clearly we had worked quite successfully in presenting a front. Did she think you should have stayed in the marriage? I think she may have felt that I ought to have tried a bit longer initially, especially when

it was quite difficult in those first, you know, first year and a bit. She certainly doesn't feel that way now. I think she's quite clear and sure that it was the right thing for me and for the kids. She was just trying to grasp, how did I not pick up on it? How did I not see? So she felt responsible in a way. I think perhaps she felt guilty too. We all did. We all felt really bad. Have we done

enough? Did we do everything we could have done? Which is why I stayed as long as I did. I needed to be really sure that I had no doubts about leaving, that leaving was absolutely the right thing to do for me and for my children. I'm asking all the divorcees that I'm speaking to about whether there's a sense of guilt or failure because of the end of the marriage. I felt that a lot towards the end of the marriage while I was still in the marriage but once I knew that I'd done everything I possibly can I was able to put that down and let it be you said to me on the phone that you're really appreciating the simple things in life can you just talk to me a little bit about what you're enjoying now that you couldn't in the marriage the fact that

it's thursday which means it's one more day to friday and and the weekend and the weekend means all of your time is your own you can plan your day and your day will go to plan there won't be any sabotage the person you've made plans with at 12 o'clock, they show up at 12 o'clock, not at 6 o'clock, not the following day at 3 p.m. So that chaos that I'd been dealing with and that fear that, well, if they're not here, where are they?

Who are they with? What are they doing with who they are with? I'm completely free of that, which means I can smell the roses. You have started rowing. Dragon boat racing. We paddle, we don't row. It seems I was whinging at work about not having anything to do on a Saturday. And someone at work was a member of the club and they said we should come down and try it out. That was it, I was hooked. Yeah it's taken over all of my thinking space in my mind now, it's all I want to do. Because I want to be better in the boat, I started going to the gym a bit

more. I train, I don't know, five times a week, sometimes more. But it's all about being in the boat. Have you always been quite athletic? Not at all. I was very bookish, very soft in the middle, very rounded. Wanting to be better at this trumps everything. But then also what's come with this is a whole other community. My social life has therefore exploded. We all talk boats. All the time, because nobody else understands it and nobody else wants to.

I wouldn't say I've become obsessed with exercise after my divorce, but it's really important that I hit my exercise goals of the week. And I wonder whether there is something about kind of getting your body back after marriage. I completely agree. There's something. I don't mean like getting your body back in terms of I mean I wish I could looking good yeah but just it's yours again it's mine again exactly getting control over my body and being present in my body you're right it's yours again you know you're not sharing if you met your 44 year old self what advice would you give her about what was ahead in terms of the

divorce? Yeah, I mean, that girl did not know. I thought, you know, in June of that year that by December I'll have moved out into another home and life would begin, you know, within four to six months. The first thing is that it's going to take longer than you think it will. But it will end. You know, it will end. It will be over. You do need to stay firm and strong. But it will end. And that was our reporter Henrietta Harrison speaking to Amina in our Life After Divorce series.

Next week, a divorced father on his experience of moving to a new town and starting a new life in order to be able to share parenting with his ex-wife. This email has just arrived on my computer here. I listened to your contributor who left an unhappy marriage with tears this morning. I'm a 65-year-old man who left a 35-year relationship having stayed together for the children. I can attest that the kids were harmed by us staying together one has poor mental health because of her parents dysfunctional relationship and the other also struggles since leaving it has become clear to me that everyone could see what i couldn't for so long it's better to leave than to stay in an unhappy relationship thank you so much

for getting in touch with us this morning also lots of people getting in touch after i spoke to anna the teacher who's having to live with her parents because she says she's not earning enough money to afford rent or indeed a mortgage it comes after the nasuwt the teaching union said that many teachers are having to turn to food banks or cut back on food because they can't afford to live in the way that they want to live because of the cost of living crisis mel has emailed to say i'm a teaching assistant desperately trying to get onto a salaried primary teaching programme and it's proving almost impossible. I was listening to the interview

with a primary teacher in Surrey who's underpaid and questioning her career. As a teaching assistant, I earn pittance and even with a second job as a nanny or tutor during the holidays, we're still struggling to pay our bills, let alone think about holidays or savings. Things have to change

if we want to keep people in these jobs that are so important for our society. Thank you so much for getting in touch. The text number is 84844 or it's at a BBC Woman's Hour on social media. Now, my next guest lives by this mantra. Don't let anybody ever tell you that you can't make a difference. Kate Jaden from Derbyshire has just broken the world record by running 100 marathons in 100 days. Yes, that's exactly what I just said. Kate began on the 1st of January and last Sunday crossed the finish line of the Brighton Marathon, having run 2,620 miles since the start of the year.

She embarked on this challenge to raise money for charity and has so far raised over £30,000. Kate, good morning to you. Hi, Kate. Can we hear you? Hi. Hello. Hi. Good morning. No, that's absolutely fine. I could see you, but I couldn't hear you. How are you feeling, dare I ask? I mean, how's the body doing right now? I'll be honest with you. i feel like my feet haven't touched

the ground just yet um we came back early monday morning and by monday uh tuesday morning sorry and by tuesday lunchtime we just we had a lot of calls about people who wanted to know more about this and it since then today is probably the first time where I've had a chance to breathe because I've still been working obviously I came back straight into work on Tuesday. Well this is this is the absolutely incredible thing about this you were training and doing sorry you were running the marathons and doing a full-time job how on earth does that work? Yeah so initially the plan was to do 2,620 miles averaged over 100 days and about four days in we were told that if I carried on doing them as single runs I could break the world record

I'd only done them as single runs because it was the Christmas holidays and there was a cheeseboard crying my name back home to be honest with you so but you know so the next day I was back in work I think it was on the 5th or something and my my wife and I, my wife accompanied me for the first 10 miles and we chatted about how it might work. And we knew that it was going to be a huge undertaking. But when we thought about the potential wider impact of the causes and the reasons that made me do it, we just thought it could be a really incredible opportunity for raising that awareness. And this distance is the equivalent distance, isn't it, from travelling from Aleppo in Syria to the UK. And I know that you're raising money for refugee charities. I mean, you must have had some incredible highs whilst you were running. We all know when we do exercise, it releases those endorphins and make you feel good.

But you must have had some really tough moments as well. Yeah. So it's not just the refugee charity that we're raising for. We're also raising for the Trussell Trust and the hygiene banks are pulling the idea of UK poverty with refugees together. So it's quite a link

with what Anna was talking about earlier and some of the calculations I did myself at points. The lowest points were quite painful body-wise, but the high points when you realized that people were hearing what you were saying and the information that you were sharing and people's perceptions were changing and then obviously the total was going up that that was the biggest thing i think no i've never done a marathon um i respect anyone who can do a single marathon you've done

100 in 100 days i know people who have done marathons have talked about the state their feet were in just after a single marathon so what on earth are your feet like right now can you even walk um well i i kind of did something to my knee on day 47 so that's the bigger issue with walking um but i lost seven toenails before their time. So RIP my toenails. I, at one point, had this weird period where I'd get blisters on the very ends of my smaller toes. And you'd spend half an hour before you even started taping your feet up. And then there'd be tape on the knee. There was one point I was pretty sure

that I was held together entirely by tape. I mean, I dread to ask this question but are you actually going to stop now are you going to put your feet up because i know that you're generally you're an ultra marathon runner anyway so this is this is what you do all the time have you got another project lined up yeah so obviously the 100 and 100 days ended up being 101 because i'd already done one on the New Year's Eve. But that finished on the day in Brighton. But that's not the end of my year. My main project for the year was Decca Triathlon in July. And it's not the end of the fundraising

and the talking about food banks and talking about poverty and refugees and those issues. This is really hopefully just the continuation of that throughout the year. But yeah, the triathlon's in June and that's a 24-mile swim. 112 miles on, sorry, 24-mile swim, 1,120 miles on the bike and then a 262 mile run. All in one go? Yeah, you have 12 days to complete it.

Wow. Well, listen, best of luck. Best of luck. You're making me feel incredibly inadequate here this morning, but well done. I hope the money keeps going up and best of luck. I hope your feet get better as well. Kate Jaden there, who's done that incredible run,

100 marathons in 100 days, earning just over £30,000 so far to go to her charity. She's talking about the Trussell Trust and also refugee charities. as a stand-up, but you may well know her best as the ill-informed interviewer Philomena Cunk or Laidback Liz in the parenting sitcom Motherland or even Kath in Ricky Gervais' Afterlife. She is, of course, Diane Morgan. She's also written, directed and starred in her own comedy series, Mandy, which is about a woman who's got big dreams, but she kind of can't really be bothered

and her short-lived jobs pretty much always end in disaster. Well, you can now see her in the new series of BBC Two's Inside Number Nine. Now, in this episode, old university friends are turning up for a reunion on a boat. Darren, played by Steve Pemberton, brings along an uninvited guest. It's his girlfriend, Donna. Has anyone got a duck, Leigh? I think I just stung my fanny on a nettle. Sorry, front bomb.

Hiya. Who's this? It's my new bird, Donna. I promised her we were going out on a boat. We are. Hey, has the yacht gotten inside because I'm freezing my tits up already. It's a great line, Diane. Yeah, it's great, isn't it? Was it fun to do? Oh my God god i think it was probably my favorite job ever really yeah yeah i mean i i've loved uh you know i loved the league of gentlemen so to do this uh with mark gatis as well it's just incredible being on a pedalo with those three looks like i'd won a competition the the premise of it is basically the whole thing is you four on a pedalo yeah you inappropriately dressed with your heels because you think you're going off to a party boat yeah i think it's a big party boat

and it's a it's a tiny little pedalo and uh weirdly we we did sink uh the boat sank during filming? during filming how? we were joking about it sinking and then it sank I noticed a lot of water in Mark's foot well I thought that doesn't look that doesn't look right and then we just sort of capsized

and we had to bail out and get us back to shore so you got fully wet? no they got us just in time but very nearly so I mean it is dark and we were discussing this before get us back to shore. So you got fully wet? No, they got us just in time. Yeah, but very nearly. So, I mean, it is dark and we were discussing this before we came on air and you were saying,

but that's the whole point of Inside No. 9. They are quite dark and it has got an unexpected end, which we're clearly not going to go into, but it's got the comedy edge with the darkness. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love anything a bit weird. And the fact that I think people,

especially actors, all actors want to be in Inside No. 9 because it's a chance to play a different character. And they did it brilliant. They must have done like hundreds of different characters. But it's so much fun and it's that dark element that people always cling on to, oh, it's a bit dark. I don't actually think it's that dark.

It's very weird and I love that weirdness. It's the thing that sort of marks it out from being like every other show. Yeah, you watch it and sometimes feel a bit uncomfortable and wonder where it's going. Yeah. As you say, is the thing. I'm a huge fan of Motherland. Absolutely love it. BBC's parenting sitcom, of course.

What works for me, I think, as a parent and sees this at the school gates is you've got the kind of uber competitive mums who are always trying to, you know, you're Amanda's. And then you as Liz, you're just like, whatever, it just washes over you. What sort of response do you get from people who watch it? What do they say? I was amazed when we first did it, women would run up to me in the street at Mother's because I'm not a mother. I didn't really know how it was going to be received. I thought it was a great script. But then when we did it and it went out, mothers would literally run over to me and say,

oh, thank God for this. It saved my life. It's literally saved my life because I thought I was the only one who was experiencing all this. So, yeah, the reaction was incredible. I think it was definitely needed because I think before that, the only shows with kids in were sort of idealised a bit and the kids were always a bit cutesy and said cutesy things,

whereas this was more about the parents being completely haggard, tired and sick of it. The truth. Yeah, which I don't think it had been done in the same way before. I also want to talk to you about Afterlife with Ricky Gervais. Incredibly, incredibly popular and successful. I mean, 100 million people have watched it. Presumably that exposure must have really benefited you and had an impact it must have i've never really thought about it but i i mean i suppose it you're in a popular show it can only

can only do you good really can't it you can only lead to more work hopefully but um yeah you never know how it's going to go but that the popularity of that show is unbelievable it's really struck a chord with people yeah and in in the last episode of the last series your character you you kind of feel pity for her in the in the few episodes before and at the end it's this focus on loneliness isn't it which often certainly comedies often don't go near but tv often doesn't go near because it's awkward it's a bit of a taboo yeah but it was done very cleverly and in a way that people could relate without feeling pity for your character at the end yeah because kath starts out being a sort of annoying character in the office you know everyone hates her she's a bit

like someone off the apprentice you know she thinks she's great she's got that sort of estate agent air about her and she sells doesn't she sell advertising she sells advertising yeah and uh so she's sort of a bit hated and you think she's a bit thick and but then as the show goes on you you get to see more of her life and you think oh god she's actually really lonely and suddenly people were like like, oh, I like Kath. I like her after all. Talk to me a little bit about growing up because I was reading that comedy was the big thing in your house rather than focusing on sort of the importance of education.

It was about making everyone laugh. Yeah, I mean, you know, academic education was important, but there was always this feeling that comedy was really prized. We'd always watch all the comedies together and it was always like who could make the other one laugh the most. Yeah, it was really important. So I always remember my parents saying, you know, stop showing off in front of your brother.

That would be the name of my autobiography, I think. Stop showing off. So at what point did you realise that you could actually make a career out of it? Probably after I'd started doing stand-up and I started getting some more TV. Was it quite late then? Quite late. It wasn't from a childhood no no even when I was I was making making a living from doing stand-up I still you know I hadn't done much TV I wanted to but but it wasn't really until I did Philomena Conk that there was a I felt there was a shift.

I thought, hang on, I think I might be able to do this and I think I might be able to get more work. But I was still not completely convinced. And interestingly, she was meant to be posh, wasn't she? Yes, she was, yeah. That's why Philomena sounds a bit wrong for her, really. So how did you manage to convince them that actually do it in your accent and not be I just asked them which I'd never done in an audition before it was quite

gotsy of me to do that because you know you're not really you know meant to go in and say can I do this can I do it this way but I just went in and I thought I'd been practicing it in a posh voice and then I practiced it in my own voice and I thought it just feels funnier in my own accent so when I went in I said do you mind if I try it in my own accent as well because I just think it is much funnier and what is that audition process like because I always think it must just be soul-destroying particularly in the early parts of your career and I know that you talk about how you wanted it so badly. I wanted it so badly. I was like an X Factor contestant.

I wanted it more than anyone else, this part. Yeah, and it never gets easier, auditioning. I auditioned for something the other day, and I was in this tiny room with four people staring at me and a camera on me. And it's really hard to be sort of you know unselfconscious when you've got all those people staring at you is it easier though when you're more successful because you can go in and think well i've got all this behind me they've seen me

they know what i can do i'm at a bit of an advantage yeah oh definitely definitely gives you an advantage it gives you a bit of confidence but then also there's a sort of they expect you to be good so it's also you can't surprise them you can only fail in a way well talking about failure I was also reading that you were really worried when Mandy came out because previously you'd obviously acted in things but this was writing directing and acting so I guess in a sense it kind of all fell on you yeah I couldn't blame anyone else and and when it just before it was about to come out I just felt like oh my god I might just ring the BBC and tell them to pull it because I can't take this it's too weird it's just suddenly because I did it and I didn't expect

anyone to watch it it's just a little 15 minute thing just just me because I did it and I didn't expect anyone to watch it. It was just a little 15 minute thing. Just me having a laugh, really. And then I suddenly sat down and thought, oh, my God, it was in lockdown. So everyone was indoors. Everyone was just watching TV because there was nothing else to do. And I thought, oh, my God, what have I done? I've made this really stupid program. I might have to ring the BBC and say

please I will pay you don't let this show go out but I didn't do that I just switched my phone off for the weekend Did you? Because you were just scared of what the response would be Yeah, terrified but luckily it was lovely

I had a great response I mean I look at the work you do and you're just you're so funny that I just wonder if there's you ever feel that there's other stuff that you want to do do you ever feel that you are so good at what you do that you only get offered certain things and there's more stuff you'd like to do or are you really happy with what you're doing? Well, I often get offered police women and things like that. But I don't know why. But sometimes I just don't feel that I can do that convincingly. I feel a bit silly playing a police woman.

But I would like to do something straight, but it would have to be the right kind of role something that I'm really keen to do and and my heart is definitely in comedy always has been but yeah I would like to to branch out a bit and do something straight if the right thing comes along unfortunately we haven't got a lot of time left but I was reading some incredible jobs that you used to do working in a worming tablet factory, peeling chip-shot potatoes. I'm guessing all of those things are just great material for comedy characters. It is, definitely. Yeah,

absolutely. If anyone wanted any advice, I would say go and do 300 jobs that you hate. Because you can base characters on it and get... Yeah, and you know what people are going through and how hard their work is and at the end of the day they want a funny program to sit down and laugh at diane thank you so much for

coming in um inside number nine returns on bbc2 on wednesday the 20th of april at 10 o'clock kevin says what a treat having miss diane morgan on woman's at a very good friday another one here saying afterlife made me realize truly the scale of d Morgan's talent. Oh, I'm going to cry. Thank you for coming in and thank you for listening to Woman's Hour. Do have a great rest of your day. Well, that's all for today. Thank you for listening and do join us again for the next one. There's a story about Vladimir Putin. When he was a teenager, he saw a film that he became obsessed by.

He would watch it, all five hours of it, over and over again, and decades later, he'd say how important it was to the life he chose. It's called The Shield and the Sword, and it tells the story of a Soviet secret agent working at the highest level in the Nazi war machine. The film prompted Putin to join the KGB. What amazed me, he'd say of the film, was how one man's efforts could achieve what whole armies could not. How one spy could decide the fate of thousands of people. This is the story of a spy who has the fate of tens of millions of people in his hands, told by the men and women who've observed his rise and rise, the Putin

experts and the Russia watchers. It's the story of a man who's seen an empire fall and his nation humiliated and who's torn up the global order trying to restore past glory and avenge the slights of the past. I'm Johnny Diamond and from BBC Radio 4, this is Putin, the story of the man who's changing the world. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.