Woman's Hour - Director Adura Onashile, Grieving and Christmas Shopping, Maria Callas's Centenary

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

In Adura Onashile’s debut film, Girl, mother Grace and daughter Ama have recently arrived in Glasgow and have created a beautiful cocoon for themselves in a council block apartment. But Grace carries deep trauma from her past, and she finds it exceptionally difficult to watch her daughter go out into the world alone. Director Adura Onashile tells Anita why she emphasised the beauty of urban poverty, and how she drew on her relationship with her own mother.Gwyneth Paltrow shared a photo on Instagram holdings hands with her ex-husband Chris Martin's current partner, Dakota Johnson.. But we ask, could you be friends with your ex's new partner? Alexandra Jones, a journalist who wrote a feature for Vogue about why she feels great about having a friendship with her ex’s now wife.Tomorrow marks one hundred years since the birth of one Opera’s most renowned and influential singers of the 20th century: the iconic heroine, Maria Callas. But what is it about her talent that has transcended the decades? Two sopranos – Alison Langer and Nadine Benjamin – join Anita to describe Maria Callas’ enduring star quality. Going shopping after a loved one has died can be a sharp reminder of your loss. Carmel Bones, who recently lost the main three men in her life now finds it hard to go into men’s department stores. Anita speaks to Carmel about her plan to tackle her grief and psychotherapist Julia Samuel gives her advice.Next Sunday, December 3, the annual Radio 4 Christmas Appeal is taking place. Money raised by the Appeal will go to people experiencing homelessness, as well as to support frontline workers and to fund organisations working to end and prevent homelessness. West Mercia Women’s Aid are one of the charities who receive donations to assist some of the women that come to them for help. Anita speaks to Chief Executive, Sue Coleman to find out how important this funding is and why they are focussed on older women vulnerable to domestic abuse.Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. I'm going to start the programme with a tweet from one of our listeners, Carmel Bones. She tweeted and said, Since I've lost my husband, dad and now father-in-law in quick succession, I find men's departments in shops quite hard to walk through. I want to buy as usual, then feel sad that my main men are gone.

So I'm going to buy and give three fellas who've chosen to live in a tent instead. Well, later I'll be discussing grief and shopping with Carmel. But I'd like to hear from you on this subject this morning. If you've lost someone, how do you cope with significant days, birthdays, anniversaries, Mother's Day, Father's Day, when you wander into a shop and realise you have no one to buy a present for? How does it make you feel? And do you have a ritual that you do instead, like Carmel, who's going to be buying for three homeless men?

How do you fill that void? Get in touch with me this morning. The number is 84844. That's the text number. You can also email me by going to our website or you can drop me a WhatsApp or a voice note on 03700 100 444. And remember, our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. Another question for you all this morning. Can you ever be friends with your ex-partner's new partner? Is this you? Have you made it work or could you never imagine it? What's your situation? Get in touch. Also, it's 100 years since the birth of Maria Callas. We discuss this legend of opera. So that text number once again,

84844, because the programme just wouldn't be the same without your input. First, you might have seen Gwyneth Paltrow shared a photo on Instagram holding hands rather tightly with her ex-husband Chris Martin's current new partner Dakota Johnson. They were grinning in cosy winter coats and hats. In the past, Gwyneth has spoken about how much she loves her ex's new girlfriend but we ask, could you be friends with your ex's new partner? Well, one woman who's managed this complicated dynamic is Alexandra Jonesones a journalist who wrote a feature for vogue on the subject

and i'm also joined by julia samuel a psychotherapist to advise on the issue and of course that text number if you'd like to tell me what your situation is 84844 alexandra and julia welcome to woman's hour i'm going to come to you first, Alexandra. Tell us your situation. Hi. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a kind of, I guess it is a kind of strange situation from the outside. It feels kind of normal to me now. But yeah, I was with my ex-partner for about 10 years.

And I guess when we broke up, we both, we had so many friends in common that we both kind of realized that we didn't want to make it kind of weird for anyone. And we didn't want to kind of bring in all this animosity. And it was a pretty amicable split anyway. So we we wanted to stay friends as much as possible. And then, you know, about a year later, he got a new girlfriend. And actually, it was someone that we both knew from a really long time ago. So it wasn't a kind of complete stranger. And yeah, I mean, over the years.

Was that better or worse? How did it make you feel at first then when you first found out that you got a new girlfriend? Did you immediately think, yeah, great, let's be mates no of course not um no no I mean it was definitely it was definitely kind of tricky I I think I was single at the time so uh I think there was also that kind of comparison thing which you know with all the best intentions everyone can go into it being like let's be grown-ups and let's be happy for the other person but I you know there is obviously that part of me that was like wow okay I'm the loser in this situation um but no I think at first we both me and her and my ex presumably we haven't really spoken about it that much but um me and her both

found it kind of odd because I guess for her you know there's the ex-girlfriend of 10 years is like hanging around and I was there at all you know at the parties that where she was kind of meeting all the friends and there was me like the ghost of Christmas past um so I think it was a weird one for her as well and for me it was more kind of yeah it was an odd situation just watching my ex move on. You kind of go into any breakup knowing that that might happen, but then having to be confronted with the reality of it is, yeah, it's a slightly different beast, isn't it? I'm just, I've got that image of you as the ghost of Christmas past, watching her make friends with all of your friends at every party.

Yeah, I would just be kind of, and I would like haunt the conversations, you know, trying to be like my most funny, sparkling self. And I think that's something that I wrote about. I mean, my my memory of that period was just me like trying to crack jokes, you know, just being really exhausted by my own punchlines. I think I'd go home and be like, wow, that was hard work. But I think it was just me trying to show that I was like so serene and everything but yeah it was weird it was definitely weird so what do you think about this photograph then um well I think it's an I mean I I had you know I've been reading a little bit about it and firstly I think the fact that they've got children that they share a family they you know it's not it's not kind of

just two separate couples who have decided to be friends for seemingly no reason um you know they they have to kind of I presumably create a nice harmonious dynamic for the children so I think that's one that's which is I mean a good thing um but I also think that someone I think one of Gwenna's fans requested that she post a picture of her and Dakota and she posted it. And I mean, I guess I think Dakota and Chris Martin have been together since 2017, as far as I'm aware. So it's been, you know, it's been a kind of a thing that's been happening for a while. But yeah, I guess it's a whole other level to actually post a picture holding hands. I mean, do you actually have a friendship with your ex-partner's, well, now wife?

Yeah. Yeah. They're married now. I went to the wedding. Is it ever tricky? No, I think we do have a friendship now that is independent of that x kind of dynamic um it didn't happen straight away and I think it it was mainly a function of the fact that we were thrown together at so many occasions and neither of us wanted to seem like the kind of bitter troublemaker so um and but then on top of that you know we've we've then been to been out together on occasions where you know he wasn't part of it and and so we've just we've formed our own friendship on our own terms and we do message each other every now and then it's not like we're in constant

contact but we see each other fairly regularly independently of him do you do you hang out yeah and so for example um like next year I'm going, I'm trying to organise. I wonder what that's like for him. I've never asked him. Who cares about him? No, I think he's, I mean, he's like a pretty chill guy. I think he's pretty fine about it.

Again, I think it was probably weird for him at first as well. But, I mean, yeah. I'm going to bring Julia in. Julia, you're the expert, you sit with clients and talk to them during sessions. Does this come up? It certainly does come up. And I think one of the big points that Alexandra is making is how you break up and the level of conflict and good feeling or bad feeling during the breakup of the relationship has a big impact on the future relationships that you have. And of course, with Dakota and Gwyneth Paltrow, the worst thing for children when they get divorced is parental conflict, which is terrible for children. It's the worst part of a separation and divorce. So that if you can maintain a good loving relationship that's respectful with your ex, and then build a relationship with their new partner, that is really good for the children,

because you can be a kind of blended family. And I think we have much more capacity to love in different ways than we all realise, that you can still love someone you did love as a partner, but in a very different way as time passes. So how do you advise people who are navigating this situation when children are involved to be able to do that? I think the main thing is how you communicate. So, you know, not to try and use either children as weapons of destruction against each other, but also to be to kind of remember where the relationship started, that it started with love and that it's a love story that's ended and has a life of its own.

And you don't have to destroy that love story when you end the relationship. We've had a message in from Cale who says, in respect of becoming friends with ex's new partner, my experience was possibly quite usual as she hated me. Quite fun though, funny though, when she left me on the doorstep in the dark and rain whilst she got my son. And then she says, I tried really hard with my second husband's ex, had her to Mother's Day lunch, drinks, etc. wasn't worth the effort for me, but better for her children, my stepchildren. So she's sort of dealing with it, but she doesn't want to have to. Yes, I mean, I think psychically we can kind of be incredibly jealous. And, you know, like Alexandra talked about in a very touching way, like being the ghost of Christmas past.

I think our relationships live in us long term, even when the relationships have ended like when people die the the love doesn't die the person lives on in you but the more you can kind of be confident and trust in the value of what you had rather than feel it's a competitive thing that you've got to be better that you've got to beat them psychologically I think that helps support you yeah that you've got to be the gracious I think you said it didn't you Alexandra that you both wanted to be seen as the gracious one yeah yeah and I guess what I sort of realized because they um they kind of got together and I think I and I was single and they were like, you know, buying a house and like just having like a nice life. And I was sort of stuck in this terminal loop of of like crappy house shares and terrible kind of Internet dates.

And but I sort of realized that any kind of animosity or bitterness or annoyance I felt about it was was kind of me projecting how I felt about my own situation onto them rather than, and I think that so often happens with exes, it's like the, and again, I was lucky because we had a fairly amicable split, but if, you know, if you didn't, or if anything, or if you feel kind of slighted in any way, It's really easy to project all of your ill feeling onto this new person when actually they're probably kind of not that much part of it. What do you do, Julia, when there's infidelity? I mean, I think, you know, that's what can contribute to a much more complicated conflict and breakup. I think what Alexandra said, though, is very psychologically intuitive, is that you can project your own misery and feelings onto the other person, it doesn't

really belong to them. And that hate, and kind of jealousy are heavy burdens to carry. If you can find a way of coming to terms with it, of kind of accommodating the loss of the relationship that was and be the person you are, then you are free of it because hate is the other end of love. It keeps you attached to the person. So you're still ruminating, you're still plotting, you're still kind of killing them in your mind. And that then does use up so much energy, you're much less likely to be able to invest it in your life and in your day and in a future relationship. So, I mean, it is hard work, but it's important to do to release you in some ways. Good advice. Ditch the hate, ditch the jealousy. May I add scream into a pillow? Yes, scream into a pillow. Brilliant. Thank you so much for that, Alexandra and Julia. Lots for

us to think about this morning. We've been getting in touch about this. I was a bridesmaid for my ex-boyfriend's new fiancé slash wife, and he was a groomsman for my husband when we got married. We had dated when I was 18 years old. The person we both married was with our next most significant relationship after we broke up. We still continue to be friends and go on holiday together with all our kids and live around the corner from each other. A friendship we all value and has endured for over 20 years. There you go. And someone else has said, I broke up in 2020. We have two gorgeous

girls, which we co-parent brilliantly. She is now living with a man. And although it wasn't easy at the start this last year, I've realized what a wonderful man he is. My girls love him and he loves them. So that's good enough for me. makes my girls very happy and that's the most important thing and that's from nicole 84844 is the number to text keep your thoughts coming in on that and anything else you hear on the program and my next guest has made a film that covers a universal dilemma how can we send loved ones out into the world without worrying about what might happen to them? The loved one in this case is Amma,

a young girl still at primary school, and the person worrying about her is her mother, Grace. The pair have recently arrived in Glasgow and have created a beautiful cocoon for themselves in a council block apartment. But Grace carries deep trauma from her childhood, and she finds it exceptionally difficult to watch her daughter go out into the world alone the film is called girl it premiered

at the sundance film competition and the director adjura on a chile joins me now on the line to discuss this first of all congratulations it's beautiful adjura thank you so much that means so much to me thank you very moving I was very moved by it. What's the film? I mean, I've given an overview. What is the film about? I guess when I talk about it, I say it's a kind of meditation on love

between a mother and a child, a single mother who's very young and her child. And as the child becomes a teenager, essentially, this triggers the mother to remember her past and the circumstances in which the child was born which was as a result of an assault that she's never ever dealt with so the film is really a coming of age of both

Amma the young girl as she becomes a teenager and her mother coming into herself and facing up to trauma that she hasn't looked at in the past but essentially for me it was much more about the beauty of love and how love can be really redemptive for people. Why did you, healing, yes, why did you want to, especially off the back of the last conversation,

which we're having, by the way, I must add that Julia will be sticking around to talk to us about another subject a little bit later. But yes, why did you want to tell this story? I am the only child of a single mother. And I've always been fascinated by the dynamic. I had never, I've never really seen it explored in film and, or in other, in other art forms, really. And, you know, the lines are often blurred about whether we were best friends or sisters or mother and daughter. And I thought that that relationship could show a universality and an epicness, actually, of dynamics. And so with this film, I pushed the dramatic engine of it. It's not my story personally, but in terms of exploring that dynamic that intimacy that tenderness which I

don't think we really talk about that can form between two women a mother and a child um is something that I'm really passionate about and I think we've we've tried really hard to uh sort of explore in this film it there is so much tenderness and so much beauty, but also there's heartbreaking moments because their bond is so tight, but she is also the source of her anxiety and she looks at her and sees, well, at one point she says, you know, I didn't choose to, I didn't want you. Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, for me, it's really important

that our relationships were allowed to be contradictory in our feelings. It's possible to feel lots of contradictory things at once. And I think motherhood is an area maybe that is still neat, that still can be explored in terms of contradictory feelings. You can really love your child and really be triggered by them and really be worried for them. All those things, all those gamut of emotions are really um possible and I think sometimes in society we like to paint mothers only as loving and not having any complicated feelings around motherhood when in reality the truth is very different I'm a mother myself so I know the truth is quite different um the mother in this grace is very anxious

we see that really clearly when she's out in the world. How did you set about conveying that in the film? Because she's such a closed off character, like the way she's dealt with trauma is to shut herself off from the world. Essentially, it's a reaction to feeling unsafe in the world, which can happen to trauma victims and sexual assault victims. And she navigates that by being quite closed off in the world and then letting herself breathe when she's at home. And the film is really about her understanding that survival is not enough, that she actually needs to thrive in order to show her daughter examples of what thriving in the world looks like.

But it was quite an interesting dilemma to have because she doesn't say a lot so the the soundtrack of the film which was women's voices was used to help us understand what grace is going through in any given moment until she found the words to start speaking her truth um to a social worker yeah and she works as a cleaner i feel that it was you know highlighting um the the situation of people who have come to this country and are doing whatever it takes to survive. Yeah. I think sometimes we forget that just getting here is the first step. Actually, people have histories that they have to navigate and they have to deal with and they have to kind of come to terms with and um of course

coming is what a lot of people want and gives um and is what is the beginning of a journey but it's not the end of the journey at all and I think in the film although it's not about the machinations of immigration it really is about what happens when you know you feel so isolated in a community and what that does to you what that can do to you there's a lot of kindness in this film as well um i'm thinking about the social worker the teachers the beautiful relationship between the two little girls ama and her friends um why was it important to show that kindness well I think for me the film is essentially about a woman who's gone through a huge trauma yeah and if I wanted to explore that I needed to give space for the trauma not to be coming from everybody around her as well in order

to tell that story properly and also there's a part you know I'm from London but I've lived in Glasgow for 13 years now and I think there is a there's a quote that we say in Glasgow people make Glasgow and I think of course we have our problems up here but I feel like there's a joy and a love that people share with each other and I wanted to explore that in the film as well there's a welcoming that it's a very welcoming city in many ways um one scene that really moved me was uh the two little girls the 11 year olds when Amma gets her period and it's a very intimate very beautiful scene between these two little girls and the friendship and she just and they cry together and she explains what this is and why she's why it's happening to her.

I mean, what wonderful actresses you found to be able to do that for starters. I mean, honestly, I feel like as a director, you know, sort of 70% of my work is getting the right cast, you know, and Lashanti Bonsu who plays the young girl was just mind blowing. From the first moment I met her,

she had a way of just expressing multitude in her little body, in her little face, even when she wasn't speaking. And Lana Turner is her friend, Fiona. She's much more of a theatre kid and loves performing and it suited her character a great deal. I know it's not completely autobiographical, but you do draw on your own relationship with your mother. How was it directing it?

Did it feel like a bit of therapy for you? I mean, what was that process like? I think that would be an astute thing to say. I mean, I think nobody embarks on a film unless you're really passionate about it. Indie filmmaking is quite difficult. And so for me, there was a desire to tell this story because of my childhood and because of some of the things I'd experienced in my childhood. And in making the film, I was maybe able to really appreciate my mother in a different way and appreciate all the brilliant things that she's done for me.

But I'm also able to kind of understand that we're different people. And maybe it's the final sort of growing up I've done in a way through making the film and maybe separating from the intensity of my relationship with my mum. Also something else while I was watching it that jumped out at me was the soundtrack exquisite just every every pick was just brilliant or you wanted to do something different with the score didn't you? Absolutely I come from a theatre background so I've always been really into Greek theatre and what and what choruses do in Greek theatre. Often choruses are women and they sort of witness,

they warn, they tell about the future, they guide. And I knew that I wanted that sensibility in this film. So Ray and I were talking from a very early stage, even before we got greenlit, about the score feeling like it was these women, these universal women who were kind of guiding Grace, the mother, and helping her, and also helping the audience understand

what she was going through. But Ray was really inspirational. At one point he said to me, isn't it interesting how urban characters are never given the orchestral treatment? You know, and I was just like, yeah. So we had strings and pianos to show the epicness of their lives,

even though it was such a small, tender relationship. You mentioned that you're also an actor. You recently played Medea for the National Theatre of Scotland. Goodness me, that's a depiction of a mother and a child relationship. So the other extreme where Medea murders her own children as part of an act of revenge. What was it like playing that role? It was, it changed my life. It changed my insides profoundly. Incredible. And I think one thing we forget about the Greeks, I suppose, is that they weren't afraid to go to really kind of dark places to explore, you know, kind of the psyche of people under strain and under stress and um

and what drives a woman to kill the children she loves in order for revenge but also to protect them because she has been banished and she's told that she should go but she should leave her children and she doesn't think her children will have any kind of life without her and that's part of the reason that she she uh does it but for me why it changed me is because I just had never really played someone who doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything as a woman having that agency I you know I played her for six weeks and it changed me. I mean, you know, probably a bit. But yeah, as a woman, being able to just say what you want, when you want and do what you want,

in spite of what other people think was really revelatory for me and revolutionary for me as well. And how is your life changing, about to change now that this film has come out and it's been shown at Sundance and it's opened the Glasgow Film Festival? It must have opened a few doors. Changes afoot? I hope so. I really hope so. Watch this space. I'm starting to think about what the next feature will be and also trying to find collaborators for future projects. But it's been an amazing process.

Well done on making it it's really beautiful uh to watch and also has your mom seen it what does she think yes she has i always tell this joke my mother is my greatest critic she's my you know you know she's very proud of me but she's my greatest critic and she said well it's a little bit slow for me but but otherwise she's really proud. Yeah. Well, well done once again, Adura. It is a beautiful watch. The film Girl, directed by Adura Anishile,

is in cinemas now. Thank you. Come back and talk to us when you've got your next project as well. Come back and have a chat. I'd love to. 84844, lots of you getting in touch about things that you're hearing on the programme. My mum, this is back to the first issue we were talking about,

being friends with your ex's new partner. My mum was a childminder to my dad's girlfriend's baby from when he was months old until he went to school. It's totally possible and more like the norm that people get on and get on with life. I convinced my husband to be a sperm donor to his previous girlfriend. She had twins and we see them and everyone is fine with it. Your thoughts keep them coming in. Now, I'm going to say the C word. Yes, Christmas. Have you started Christmas shopping or dare I say, are you finished? Or do you leave it to the last minute like me?

Well, shopping at this time of year can be harder than just finding the right present. For people whose loved ones have died, it's a reminder of their loss. Well, my next guest, Carmel Bones, wrote a tweet to say just that. I'm going to read your tweet out, Carmel. She said, since I've lost my husband, dad, and now father-in-law in quick succession, I find men's departments in shops quite hard to walk through. I want to buy as usual then feel sad that my main men are gone so I'm going to buy and give three fellas who've chosen to live in a tent instead. Well she was inundated with messages from

other people who felt the same way and Carmel joins me now in the studio and Julia Samuel is still with us, psychotherapist and author of Griefworks, to discuss this. Thank you for coming in to speak to me about this, Carmel. Why did you want to put that tweet out and how are you? Let's start by asking that question. Well, hi, Anita, and thank you so much for inviting me to speak about this on Woman's Hour. I put the tweet out, I think, because I was feeling exactly as I've said I would be in department stores and I'd be hurrying past the you know happy Christmas husband stands and happy Christmas father that the

card stands um I'd be looking at jumpers that my dad might have liked or shirts that my husband like might have liked his gloves and scarves and things that, you know, my father-in-law might have liked. And I was thinking, this is ridiculous. You know, I really need to be able to calmly walk through these parts of the shop and not feel so sad. So I thought I need to kind of try and fill the gap. I need to still have a purpose and still buy something for people, even though the people, the three lovely men in my life, have now gone. And the three main men in my life were so compassionate and kind. You know, my dad always brought me up to be kind and me and my sister to

be sharing, not just at Christmas time, but all of the time. And David, my late husband, was not materialistic at all. I once said to him that my daughters and I were thinking what to buy him for Christmas. And he said, hey, Carmel, I just wish everyone would be nice to each other. That would be fine by me. He was an assistant head in a large secondary school. And I think he'd had a wonderful Christmas event at school. And he was just inspired by that. But but really they weren't materialistic at all so I thought to myself well what I'll do is I mean it was the time when Suella Braverman had made that comment about people opting to live in tents and in my experience people haven't actually opted to

live in tents you know life has thrown them particular circumstances that meant that they are homeless for whatever reason. So I thought that's what I would do. And I was speaking to one of my great friends, Andrea, who lives locally and does a lot of selfless work. And she encouraged me to get in touch with the local meal bank in Carlisle. They have Monday meal bank at 108 Botchergate and probably 40 or 50 people go there every Monday night. Men, women, people who are socially isolated, lonely, homeless, maybe drug or alcohol addictions, all kinds of issues. And I got in touch with John, one of the volunteers, and he suggested that the people who attended

would like scarves, gloves and toiletries at this time of year. And it made sense to do that. Absolutely. So what was happening when you were walking through department stores? scarves, gloves and toiletries at this time of year. And it made sense to do that. Absolutely. So what was happening when you were walking through department stores? I was just feeling kind of just sad and lost and looking at things that and thinking, oh, my dad would love that. And then I think, but your dad's not here. Or David would love that shirt.

That'd be a great tie for him for work. And then think, but he's not here to buy it. So, yeah, I just didn't feel as if I wanted to that shirt. That'd be a great tie for him for work and then think, but he's not here to buy it. So, yeah, I just didn't feel as if I wanted to be there. I found I was backtracking and maybe going back down to the food hall or to the women's department and thinking of something for my girls or my mum or something like that. Did it catch you off guard sometimes, just that reminder? It did actually. It stopped me in my tracks a couple of times. I was working in Glasgow where I love working and I was in a shop and I literally had to backtrack. It just, yeah,

it just caught me off guard. We actually mentioned that you were coming in and I read your tweet at the beginning of the programme and lots of listeners have got in touch with their own,

sharing their own experience as well. Katie Haynes in Chilli Cardiff says, my lovely mother died when I was in my mid-30s. I'm now in my mid-50s. She was so good at giving thoughtful presents at Christmas. So each year, in addition to getting all the gifts from my family, I always treat myself to a little something which I keep for Christmas Day.

My only criteria is I don't spend too much money, but can hear my mother's voice saying, go on, treat yourself. And another one here. Helen said, my husband died on Christmas Day 2020. So for my family, Christmas and the shopping is cancelled. Instead, I make a dadvent calendar and turn a number of photos of him around each day on Advent to remember happy times together. This is a comfort for me and my two daughters. Beautiful.

Absolutely beautiful. It's 84844, the number to text. Well, Julia is still with us to join in on this conversation are you okay i'm fine thanks it's emotional there's a lot there's a lot to talk about this um julia what happens when we get these reminders whilst we're out and about do you when you have to live with the grief what's happening happening psychologically? So Carmel, it's so moving. And grief, you know, the task of mourning is exactly as Carmel described. It's facing the reality of the loss, which walking into a men's store, you're reminded of all that is missing, all the people you can buy for. And she very healthily allowed the sadness to come through

her, which is how we adjust in grief. We can't block the pain. But the other end of that is also that the love for that person never dies. Like in the messages you've got, the love continues. So finding ways of expressing that love and making meaning from that love and in some way representing that relationship in how you behave and what you do is incredibly supportive. So it's beautiful that she's bought things for the men in tents and which both represents how the men in her life that she loved are, but can give her something to support her to manage the pain. And you move in and out of the pain, like you were referring to, Anita, it can come and hit you. Don't have to be in a men's store. She could just be walking down the street or going into her

bathroom and you can suddenly get a wave of loss. And the important thing is to allow it through you and then do things that support you. Is there a link between sadness and spending money like comfort eating? Is there retail therapy? Why and do some people shop in times of grief? So it's very common for people to shop in times of grief. And I think it kind of is a way it is like comfort eating. It's, you know, retail therapy is a well known kind of term. And I think it's a way of soothing us. It's trying to fill the emptiness that we feel inside. And grief is a kind of presence of absence.

And buying stuff is the opposite. It's something that is a present. It's you can hold it, you can see it, you can smell it. Psychologically, I think the kind of effect of it is quite short-lived. But it isn't a terrible thing to do at all. I think it's better to do it with a friend so that you can have some warmth and connection and then, you know, have a laugh, cry together, go and have a coffee afterwards. So it's a kind of session, if you like. I think you can get into a quite a ruminating negative loop if you just shop and shop and shop on your own.

That can be quite spiralling and then damaging. Do you have somebody to go out with, Carmel? Oh, yes, absolutely, yeah. My two girls are fantastic, and my friends have been such an immense support ever since David died and my dad, and they're just, I don't know where I'd be without them, to be quite honest, yeah.

And Andrea, my friend, was the one who put me in touch with the Botchergate 108, the meal bank. So, yeah, I've got no shortage of supporters and helpers, which I'm very, very lucky and very appreciative of. It must be particularly hard because it's all three men in such a short space of time, because it's often the women who are going out and doing all the shopping. Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

I mean, the irony is, you know, I'd be the one buying things for David's dad. He'd say, oh, you know what my dad would like. So, yeah, that's true. I think it is. And we're all, I've had two daughters. I've got a sister. She's got two daughters. You know, I've got a sister-in-law.

It's all women. My mum is fantastic and she'll be listening in in the care home I think in Whitehaven at the moment but um it's all really women that we're surrounded by so I think and I didn't want to just buy you know colleagues or other men that I knew or David's four friends who've been like brothers to me they've been amazing because they're all set up they want for nothing they're married they've got children. I wanted to sort of, as Julia was saying, fill the gap or help people who were more in need, that compassionate. I mean, Christmas is a time for giving, for kindness. And, you know, it churns up feelings in us, I think, of traditions and trying to replicate what we've done in the past you know traditions are all about you know doing what you did before so I'm doing what I did before but in a different way so it's a new tradition I guess and that's okay you can set up new traditions exactly Julia yes I think I mean it's so wise of you Carmen that rituals are like habits with soul

so you're kind of developing a touchstone to the memory of the men in your life that is both a kind of embodiment of them doing good for others and soothes you and kind of you feel, you know, being good to others helps us feel better about ourselves. And so, you know, such a healthy way of responding to such so many significant losses, for which I feel really sad for you. Thanks, Julia. I think it's a win-win situation. It's helping me and helping the recipients as well. Thank you for your kind words. Has this helped talking about it, Carmel? Oh, it does, yes.

And the reaction you've had to your tweet as well? Overwhelmed by it. And I'm so pleased that my tweet has struck a chord with others and potentially helped them. You know, I was privately messaged by quite a few people who said, thank you for saying this. I thought I was the weird, strange person in the shop that was stopped in their tracks in the women's department. Or I smell perfume and it's reminding me of my mother or whatever else. So I really felt, wow wow we all suffer pain and loss and grief and let's acknowledge that and realize and try and help each other so if it can help anybody else or inspire anybody else then I'm absolutely delighted. I'm no no doubt you have

Carmel thank you so much for coming in to speak to me and Julia thank you too um lots of you getting in touch um another message here my younger sister died in 2014 at the age of 54 i wrote a poem for her birthday every year as a kind of present sometimes it's difficult one year i wrote a poem about not being able to write a poem it makes me feel i've done something to mark the day another one i was widowed at 34 with a three-year-old and a seven-year-old every year i buy them daddy's birthday presents because I can't buy a gift for my husband. We have a special day out to the West End and to places their dad used to take them. So it keeps alive the memory of the efforts he made to spend time with them.

And Val says, I lost my beloved husband this July after 65 years together. Yes, shopping is strange, not just Christmas shopping. I pick up his favourites in weekly shop, but put them back and have a little word to him in my head. I am strong with everyone except with myself as I want him home. Val, I hope this conversation has helped with Carmel.

Carmel, thank you once again. Thank you so much for having me, Neetra. It's been my absolute pleasure. Now on to Christmas Day and the Woman's Hour Christmas Day special. We are having, wait for this, a sprout extravaganza. I repeat, sprout extravaganza. We've got an amazing cast assembled to talk about recipes, their history and traditions, why they're particularly good for women to eat as they contain phytoestrogens,

why they give us wind, yep, and as they contain phytoestrogens, why they give us wind, yep, and why all of us should be eating more bitter foods, all that, and look as well as some of women working in the brassica industry. But of course, I want to hear your stories too. Do you and your family love them or do you need to smuggle them onto the plate? And why are Brits determined to keep the sprout tradition going if so many people hate them? My favourite message so far has been from a woman married to Russell Stout. We'll be including her in our programme for sure. Text me, 84844. And also you can email me by going to our website,

Cannot Wait, for that programme. Now, tomorrow marks 100 years since the birth of one of opera's most renowned and influential singers of the 20th century, the iconic heroine Maria Callas. She's mostly remembered as Puccini's Tosca, but her legacy includes the tragic Norma, the portrayed Luciana di Lamore and the doomed Violetta in La Traviata.

But what is it about Maria Callas' talent that has transcended the decades? Since her death in 1977, her voice has been heard and revered in La Traviata. But what is it about Maria Callas' talent that has transcended the decades? Since her death in 1977, her voice has been heard and revered by generations since. Well, on the programme, we have two sopranos, Alison Lange and Nadine Benjamin. To illuminate us, just what is it about Maria Callas' enduring quality?

Nadine and Alison, welcome to the programme. Alice, let's talk about when you first discovered Maria Callas, because Alison, you came to her early in life. Nadine, you came to her later. Let's start with you, Alison. What was your first encounter? Yeah, so my mum had lots of CDs of Maria Callas, actually, and one in particular that she would play every morning

when we were getting ready for school, in fact. And I used to think, oh, I mean, she's got a lovely voice, but never really, you know, thought, I used to think oh I mean she's got a lovely voice but never really you know thought okay you know it's just a singer and it wasn't really until I started properly training and really learned about technique and started performing myself that I thought okay this woman is actually onto something here and she the thing about Maria Callas' singing, it's not just singing. It is absolute, honest performing. And her voice comes out like it's an emotion you're hearing. It's not a singing voice.

It's an emotion. So I watched a clip of her last night singing Vissi Dati from Oscar at the Opera House. And by the end of it, it didn't sound like singing. It sounded like crying. So that is what she was incredible about. She was just honest to the core in every sound she made. And that's how I thought, OK, I'm going to listen to this lady more and really try and learn from her.

And how about you, Nadine? When did you first hear Maria and what what was the feeling well I've heard Maria quite late I was about 33 I think 33 34 and um I one that you've just played the Casta Diva and also the Il Trovatore d'amor solale rose I mean it just you know hearing that in the Paris concert it was in black and white. And what I noticed was as soon as she started singing, I knew her state of mind. And immediately my emotion, my heart opened and I was with her and I was inside the story and I was crying. And I knew when I heard her that if she could make me feel that that is how I would love to make others feel with my voice and I she just had this such amazing work ethic about her she was all

about preparation preparation preparation be ready be ready be ready and you could always hear that in her phrasing, in her coloratura, just her assuredness and exact talk about it today. And again, just stopped me in my tracks. Just absolutely, you have to just put everything down, close your eyes and just disappear into a voice like magic. Her voice is magic. Alison, you've played Violetta in La Traviata twice. And you look to Callas' performances and interviews for guidance, don't you? Why is that? Why are interviews? Well, yeah, I think when I first knew I was going to be singing Violetta for the first time, I thought, right, I have to get to the core of Violetta. Because the thing about her character is that it sort of requires three different voices. So as a soprano in Act One, you need the color of Tora, which Maria did so well.

The second act, you have to have the dramatic lyric, beautiful, long phrase voice. And at the end, she's dying. So that is where you have to be an actress. And that is what she does. And I would listen to her. I would just be walking, listening to Maria singing this. And, you know, she doesn't really sing. She sort of speaks, especially in the end and her pianissimo, the way she quietens down in her final aria. It's absolutely exquisite. And it is just, and I would just cry every time. And I think what we can be guilty as is trying to, you know, trying to be a singer and being an actress like she was. We try hard to do all of that, but not many people

can do that because you know in rehearsals when I was rehearsing that scene I just end up crying my eyes out and can't sing a note um so yeah I mean the whole story um the way she looked um the eyeliner the the striking beauty but I wonder Nad, what it actually took to be Maria Callas at that time, a Greek woman who got to the top of her game. Like, what did it take? Well, I think it took a lot of stamina. It took a lot of courage. It took a lot of bravery.

She did suffer with nerves um especially around singing so her internal world would have had to um have really um been really determined in how she was going to stand out in the world but I think you know she did things like she had trouble with her weight so she lost weight and she became this fashion icon I mean people who dressed her were like people like Yves Saint Laurent and Dior. You know, so she kind of made this kind of, I don't know what I would call it, like an armour for herself that allowed her to be fragile. Because she was also really fragile as well. And she allowed her to be vulnerable so that she could express all of herself the dark and the light she often spoke about being having this dual world of Maria

and Callas and how would they both coexist um and you know she had such a deep work ethic. I mean, when she first started, she would go and sit in her voice teacher's lessons and watch every single student have a lesson. So she had this sheer dedication and also determination. And she was an eternal warrior. So she was going to be dedicated to this art. She was going to give you the last of herself she was going to make sure that you felt something when you sang that you were taken away on a journey in the story and she was never going to let you go she was with you right until the end oh how wonderful to hear both of you speak with such passion about maria callas

allison and nadine thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to spend the weekend listening to her. I'm going to do a deep dive into her back catalogue. I'm going to weep all weekend. Thank you. Now, this Sunday, the 3rd of December, is the launch of BBC Radio 4's Christmas Appeal Week. And for 97 years, BBC Radio 4 and St Martin's

in the Field charity have worked in partnership to raise funds for people experiencing homelessness around the UK. Last year's listeners raised over £5 million for St Martin's in the Fields. Part of their work is providing small grants for up to £500 through their Vickers Relief Fund by paying for a deposit or rent in advance.

These grants can transform someone's situation in a matter of days. Frontline workers at organisations across the country can apply for the Vickers Relief Fund to help the people they're working with. One of these organisations is West Mercia Women's Aid and I'm joined in the studio by their Chief Executive, Sue Coleman. Welcome, Sue. Why can this funding be vital to support for the women that you work with? Oh, thanks ever so much for giving me the opportunity to talk about this money

and the difference that it can make, Anita. So many of the women that we work with have experienced the kind of control in their relationships, which means that they have very, very little disposable income of their own, very little control over any of the finances in the family. That's been part of the control and the abuse that they've experienced. And for those that desperately need to leave for their own safety, but who can't for reasons of the size of their family, or because they are older, find it difficult to think about coming and living in a communal refuge,

which is one of the provisions that we've got. We've also got access to smaller, single, safe accommodation units. But to be able to go into those, they need a deposit. They need to be able to give four months' rent up front, and very, very few of them will have access to the resources to be able to give four months rent up front and very, very few of them will have access to the resources to be able to do that. The Vickers Relief Fund has been fantastic in providing those deposits for those women and enabling them to make their escape and move into safety and comfort so that we can then support them in their ongoing recovery. Because you as

an organisation focus on older women who are vulnerable to domestic abuse and you talk about these older women being hidden victims of violence and abuse. Why hidden? Let's understand what's actually going on. Why is it different to younger women? Well we support women of all ages but what we've discovered in recent years, I have to say, is that domestic abuse is as big an issue for older women. And deciding when you become an older woman is controversial in itself. Someone told me it was 55 once. It was very depressing. One of the reasons why that's been so hidden is that until 2017, the British Crime Survey, which is an annual national publication of crime in this country, when it was reporting on domestic abuse, only reported on victims up to the age of 60. So if you were 61 or over, you just weren't included. You were literally invisible as a woman. If you'd experienced domestic abuse, if the police had been out to help you because of the serious nature of that abuse, it just wasn't recorded.

Goodness me. for us to catch up with that fact and to realise that there's a significant community of women that need help and support for whom some of the services weren't necessarily very well set up. Our service, like a lot of women's aid services, has got an image of being there for women and children, for families. So it's not surprising that older women don't necessarily see our services as being relevant for them um well let's um tell me about one of the women that your organization has helped

recently well we're going to call her Anne that's not her real name is it no no no no um I mean and and has been living with abuse for I would say 30 years um and tried to keep that from her children tried to give her children a normal life but found that very difficult from time to time now in a position where her husband actually needs some care from her but the abuse still hasn't ended in fact it's got worse Well she didn't even recognise that she was suffering from abuse, did she?

She didn't, no. Why is that, do you think? Well, because it becomes normalised. One of the impacts of abuse is that conditioning. If you tell someone time and time again that they're useless, they're hopeless, no one else cares about them, they deserve to be treated in the way that they have been. Then sooner or later, you start to accommodate that. You lose your sense of self-worth. You come to believe it.

You get ground down. And so for women that have been living with that for years, it's very, very difficult to feel that they are worthy of any kind of better life. I've got a bit of her testimony in front of me. Do you mind if I just quickly read a little bit and you can tell me what's going on? She says, I remember once someone on daytime telly talked about domestic abuse. I didn't know what it was. Certainly didn't think that it had anything to do with me.

They talked about women leaving and living on their own. I had no idea how they could afford to do that. Where did they get their money from? How did they pay the mortgage, the bills? He did all that. All I had was my little bit of wages and my old age pension. And anyway, what would the kids say? They loved their dad.

What would they think? How often does this come up? A lot. A hell of a lot. And the guilt that women feel at leaving, because not only have they been conditioned to believe that they're not worthy of having any choice or control over their lives, that their happiness isn't important. But they're also given the responsibility of caring for the man that's doing that and the rest of the family. So making that break, even women, we know women, we're supporting women at the moment, whose lives have been horrendous,

who've experienced violence, threats, abuse for years. Now their husbands are quite infirm. They feel guilty and feel that they should be going back to make sure that he's OK. It's very, very difficult after years of that experience to shed those kinds of sense of responsibilities and put yourself first. And are older women more susceptible to the financial abuse? Yes, because traditionally, men have been the wage earners.

They've been the ones that have controlled the finance and they continue to do that. Although, I mean, we've also got examples where men have taken great steps to hide some of the money that the family have accumulated or to make sure that it's put in a place where their wives would not know that it was there, would certainly not know how to access it, so that if they ever did decide that they no longer wanted to be in the relationship, then they wouldn't have any resource to take with them. Well, Sue, thank you for coming in to speak to me and shedding light on the work that you're doing. If you want to find out more, search online for the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal webpage.

You can find the link on our website too. The Appeal will be broadcast at 5 to 8 this Sunday morning. And you can hear how your donations have helped people this year by listening to Making a Difference at 9.45 on Sunday morning. Again, at 20 to 6 in the evening. Thank you so much, Sue, for coming in to speak to me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour, where we'll hear from actor Emily Blunt about her role in the blockbuster hit Oppenheimer.

That's Weekend Woman's Hour, tomorrow from four. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I love you. I know that. Carolyn is 80, a wealthy widow. Dave is in his 50s, homeless, a former drug addict with a long criminal record.

Their love affair causes a huge rift in Carolyn's family. That's our mom. We're not going to let you just do that. I'm Sue Mitchell and this story unfolded in California on the street where I live. Look what you brought into your house. He's a con artist, mother. Is Dave a dangerous interloper or the tender carer he claims to be? That's why I'm here. Thank God. Find out in Intrigue, Million Dollar Lover from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. If anything happens to you, I will just die. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.