Woman's Hour - Director and actor Kathy Burke on her new series of documentaries: All Woman

Episode Date: August 10, 2019

Director, actor Kathy Burke on her new series of documentaries for Channel 4 “All Woman” which are about appearance, motherhood, marriage and relationships. We’ll be talking about women’s finances and the changes to income when women have a family. There's music from the Scottish songwriter Karine Polwart. Dr Amy Kavanagh a disability campaigner tells us about her experiences of harassment in public spaces. Plus a look at how to use the last few weeks of the holidays to prepare children for primary school and the wrestler Heather Bandenburg also known as La Rana Venenosa on why she thinks women’s wrestling is a feminist act.Presented by Jane Garvey Producer: Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor: Beverley PurcellGuest; Sarah Pennells Guest; Lucy Tobin Guest; Fran Bennett Guest; Helen Stroudley Guest; Vibha Ghei

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Hi, good afternoon. Welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. This is our best bits of the week compilation. Hope you enjoy what we've got for you this afternoon. We're going to start with a conversation with Kathy Burke, which you'll hear in a moment or two. Also, we talk very frankly about women and personal finance and why it's often so difficult for women to talk to partners about money. You can also hear in this programme from Amy Kavanagh, Dr Amy Kavanagh, who's partially sighted and a disability rights

campaigner. She's been speaking about how she's treated when she goes about in public. When I'm stood at a road crossing, I think it causes a lot of people panic. But all I want them to do is just ask me if I need help first. Because regardless of how good their intentions are, being grabbed suddenly with no warning is absolutely terrifying. And good intentions can have really unpleasant consequences like being injured, pain, damage to my mobility equipment. And it can get worse than that. So you'll hear from Amy on Weekend Woman's Hour today. There's music from the Scottish songwriter Karine Polwatt, how you can help your child settle into primary school, and the wrestler Heather Vandenberg on why she believes that wrestling is a feminist act.

Wrestling requires you to make so much sound and be strong and take up space and be aggressive. And all these things that I think are really important parts of being a woman and I find strength in them and it celebrates that. Heather Vandenberg and you'll hear about her life in the wrestling ring on Weekend Woman's Hour. We start then with the director and actor and Twitter stalwart Kathy Burke. She is presenting a new series of three documentaries for Channel 4. The programmes are called All Woman and they start next Tuesday at 10pm. The programmes are about appearance, about the appeal of motherhood and about relationships.

I asked Kathy why does she believe that people who say appearance doesn't matter are lying? Everyone is still obsessed with looks and the way women look more than men. I think men get it in the neck now as well. You know, you look at these male contestants on things like Love Island. I mean, they all look the same to me, these boys, because they've all got the same bodies. Do you know what I mean? Those bodies never existed. No, never existed. Not never existed no never existed you know what i mean i was like you're lucky to you know like a fella you know they all had um like sunburn marks and t-shirt marks and stuff like that when

you saw their chests you know um but it is it's just become it's become like an obsession and and and it's the selfie generation this is just what's happened everyone's become very obsessed with how other people look i mean even 10 15 years ago i don't think anybody would have dared tell me to my face that i'm fat but now people are very happy to tell me about the fact that I'm fat never a doctor but you know just somebody that you sat having a chat with and you know and um oh what exercise do you do do you do you I mean do you try to keep healthy and it's like no I am really healthy I mean I might be fat but it doesn't mean to say i'm not healthy you know do do you um think about this is a ridiculous question in a way but especially in the light of what you've just said but do you think about what you eat or are you just well i'm a vegetarian

right so you do then of course because i have to because you know there's more choice now although they will i'm in all this vegan stuff i wish they'd realize don't chuck seeds in everything you know what i mean because that gets on my nerves um but yeah i haven't eaten meat for 30 years so i've sort of been an incredibly healthy eater there's a big thing on twitter today about oh you know kfc and pizza hut are going to support trump and don't i've never been in a kfFC even when I was young I've never eaten McDonald's I don't eat that crap food you know I don't like it um but I look like I look like I'm constantly at the kebab shop do you know what I mean so it's it's it could be frustrating because I feel like I'm shouting at everybody all the time I'm a vegetarian I've just got you onto this, I'd rather regret it now.

The plastic surgeon you consult for the purposes of the documentary shows you what the new, improved Kathy Burke could look like. Oh, that was funny. Well, it came at quite a price. I can't remember how much he was going to charge. Oh, it was going to be 20 grand to look like a Disney cartoon, basically. Yeah, see, that's what puzzles me about plastic surgery is that even if you have it,

even if you have the best plastic surgery, you'll still look like someone who's had really expensive plastic surgery. Yeah, and, you know, and this chap, Dr De Silva, his name was, he was a very nice chap, actually. But I just thought, you know, you're just making a lot of money out of people's insecurities, you know, because it was all all about that's the thing now it's like we're trying to make people feel better about themselves

and i just think we'll stop telling them they look like a piece of poo and then they will feel better about themselves you know just give some positive vibes and positive speak rather than putting them under the knife I think because I got sick years ago I know what it's like to go under the knife when you're sick so it's like why would you want to do that without it being for a proper valid reason you also explore motherhood and its appeal and this is something that you have never been remotely interested in well that's not entirely true I mean I did get sort of moody broody late 20s early 30s there was somebody that I knew who I thought oh I'd love to have a baby with him do you know what I mean but he had a girlfriend so that was a bit of an impossibility so I did think about having a baby but it was never really my heart's desire you know I think if I'd really

wanted a kid I would have had one and then I found out later because I've got this weird blood condition called Hughes syndrome that's the layman's term and I met Professor Hughes who discovered this syndrome him and his team it's a blood clotting disease and it affects the immune system. Anyway, and I had a lovely chat with him and he said, oh, did you ever want children? And I said, well, no, I was, you know, not really intensely, you know. And he said, well, you're very lucky then, he said, because I could never have had them because of my blood condition.

It would never have happened for me. I sort of felt quite lucky, actually. I just thought, blimey, I'm really glad that it wasn't my heart's desire because that would have been so devastating, you know. Well, what I didn't know until I watched these programmes is that your own mum passed away very sadly when you were really, really young. Yeah, I was 18 months. So you never, well, obviously you've no memory

of your mum being around. No, no memory at all. So who mothered you? Well, I had a foster mum for a bit called Joan. She was great. My godmother, Nellie, she was great. And actually, I don't want to embarrass him, he'll be listening to this,

but my big brother, John, he was my mother figure, really. He took care of me. My dad got all the praise, but it was really my brothers that did all the work, actually. Give me an example of something you would do for you, John. Well, sort of any, cook my dinners, you know what I mean? Take me to school, make sure that I was washed and dressed and, you know, and he used to do all this,

because they were like ten and 8 when mum died. So they had the memory of mum. So they knew what she did and what life was like with a mum, which was great. And then suddenly life was pretty horrible, actually. But no, you know, he just sort of did, he got on with it. Back then, especially the boys, they weren't given any guidance or care. This is in the 60s. They just got on with it.

And then when I was big enough, I had my chores. You know, I had, right, you do this now. You know what I mean? We're not just here to wait on you. You're big enough to cart that bag of laundry down to the laundrette. So do it. Get it on your back and go to the laundrette. You also are really honest about the appeal of the single life, which does appeal to you. And actually, it appeals to me, frankly.

Watching the third programme, you meet some, there's a fantastic Anglican nun. Oh, yeah. Who just is so just delirious in her own skin that she's an example to all of us. But why is it that women like that threaten, they threaten the status quo a bit, don't they? Yeah, I don't know. I'm just fed up of everybody having an opinion about us

and what we should and shouldn't be doing. It's like, come on now, you know, this is 2019. It's sort of ridiculous. I mean, I love that nun, Sister Elizabeth. She was great crack, actually. She... Anglican nun, we should say. Yeah, yeah.

Not that there's anything wrong with Catholic ones. No, but she was very giggly and had a real twinkle in her eye. And I did admire it, you know. But then that's an extreme example of living a single life oh yeah no i'm not necessarily saying every single nunnery yes and stay there although there is an appeal clearly and and she was a cracking example of it um why is it do you think then that as a wider society we are slightly questioning of people who follow the single path and are at ease with it? Because it frightens people.

Because I think the majority of human beings are really scared of being lonely. And people that aren't scared of being lonely... Or alone. Or alone, yeah. Yeah, because I don't feel loneliness, really. I never really have done, actually. And I think it's because when I was a kid,

because there was no proper guidance there, I mean, I was feral. I just ran free and did what I wanted when I wanted. This is around Islington, wasn't it? Around Islington, you know. I've always been quite happy with my own company you know doesn't mean to say i'm not social you know i see my pals and i go i go i don't go out as much as i used to because you know i'm 55 now i just can't be

bothered with it but you know i can sit in like this week i didn't really talk to it there was in the middle of the week i don't think I spoke to anyone for two days. I didn't even give anyone a ring. And it was just lovely. I sort of feel like I'm constantly meditating. Kathy Burke, and if you want to hear that interview in its entirety, then you can get Friday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast via BBC Sounds. And unusually, for a guest appearing anywhere these days,

everybody liked Kathy Burke. There wasn't a word of criticism on Twitter about her appearance. She really is one of those people that, I don't know, her authenticity just cuts through and people just think, I like that woman. Now, Thursday's edition of the programme was all about women and money. And it might surprise you that actually, this is according to the Chartered Institute of Insurance, the biggest financial risk a woman can take is starting a heterosexual relationship.

Because if that goes wrong, then it's more often than not the woman who loses out financially. And if the couple cohabit rather than marry, the financial hit can be even worse for the woman in the event of a split. And then even though women, of course, do tend to manage the household budget, they're often not across the bigger financial picture. So Jenny talked on Thursday to Sarah Pennells, a personal finance journalist and the founder of SavvyWomen.co.uk, Lucy Tobin, who covers the city for the Evening Standard newspaper in London and is the author of Being an Adult, and Fran Bennett, a member of the Women's Budget Group

and an academic at Oxford University's Department of Social Policy and Intervention. Here's Fran giving an example of how one family made their finances work. The woman was a white-collar worker. She was paid monthly. And the man was a manual worker and he was still paid weekly. And they'd never had a joint account, in fact. They'd always had single accounts. And what they did was that because she was responsible for the everyday management of the money

and he was responsible for paying the mortgage and the money and he was responsible for the paying the mortgage and the utilities bills which was quite a common pattern we came across in these low to moderate income couples they decided that his wages which were weekly would be paid into her account to pay the daily housekeeping and so on and that her monthly wages would be paid into his account to do the mortgage and the utilities and so on. Now, she may well have been paid more than he was, but the interesting thing about that that I thought was that their gender roles in relation to the household budget were clearly more important in that particular case than the ownership of their wages. Now, it's just one example, so it's not necessarily typical, but I just thought

it was quite interesting. Lucy, how familiar do you reckon that would be for younger couples, or are they better at it? I think we're better at it. I think, you know, we grow up being forced to because you have to think about, you know, if you go to university, you have to think about student debt. You have to think about paying your way. If you don't go to university, you know, you have to get a job and sort it out that way where you might be living at home for longer but on the whole it's not for because uh you know it's not the desired uh lay of the land you want you want to be able to afford to move out so you have to be interested in money it's not um a frivolous thing um and i think obviously it is a philosophical topic and it is a feminist issue.

But I also think it's forgetting the practical issue. I mean, personally, I think I was a money journalist. I knew all the best deals. I sorted out all the household money stuff and long term and short term. And then I had kids and I wasn't sitting at a desk every day. I wasn't at my computer. So who's the one who's going to sort out the insurance needs renewing or the mortgage needs looking at? Is it going to be the person who's at a computer nine hours a day and then comes home and relaxes? Or is it the person who's running after a kid all day, got a couple of hours in the evening, I don't want to sit at my computer thinking about pensions? I think it's a practical issue. But interestingly, Lucy, the Government Equalities Office says a mother's average weekly wage by the time a child is 12 is one third below the father's.

What do young couples you've spoken to make of that? Or indeed yourself? I was talking to my husband about this yesterday. What were you talking? We both went to university and came out with you know good qualifications and yes we went into different careers and um he happens to be in finance and i'm in journalism and they sadly aren't equally paid um but the fact is i have taken my career has taken a bit of a setback because i'm now back at work part-time and and i'm looking after my kids

and i'm going to earn less over our lifetime and my pension is going to be lower because i'm now back at work part-time and I'm looking after my kids and I'm going to earn less over our lifetime and my pension is going to be lower because I'm part-time. And we were talking about it and what can you say? It's the way it is. It was my choice. Sarah, what can you say? It was choice. Well, it is, but on a practical level, partners, husbands can start a pension for somebody else. There are things that you can do if that's the way you want to do it. I think it is interesting that, as Lucy says,

it's not a generational thing, though. Those divides that we've had for a long time about where money goes and expectations about money still exist. I mean, you know, if I ruled the world, then I think we'd start completely differently in terms of how we work, because at the moment we're still tinkering around the edges at basically a kind of nine to five day with presenteeism whereas for things to be really equal we need to sort of shake it up very radically so that women who have children can still have a place in the work workplace that doesn't mean coming out with a salary that's a third lower when their child is 12. And that maybe fathers might be doing a bit of childcare? Well and fathers can get involved and that's encouraged

both within the workplace and outside. And Lucy, I mean, I admire you being that candid, but when you finally end up with what can you do, that's just the way it is. I'm sure you don't really mean that we shouldn't be doing anything about it otherwise you wouldn't be sitting here. No, but I think as a personal experience, most people, I suppose it's a romantic view.

You think you are going to stay together forever. You do have the kids. And in the future, fine, his pension will be bigger, but it will be a shared pot that we'll both, you know, we'll both live in the house that we both earned, that we both paid towards and we'll both have the pension. Obviously, the problem is if that doesn't happen, then you've got a big problem. I think one of the things that actually surprised us with the work we did was how little difference there was between the generations um and actually whilst we're seeing slight changes amongst millennial women so that's sort of under 37 year old that actually the difference between men and women in that generation is is fundamental

too in the way we see in other generations. And we were quite surprised by that, but we assume it's going to take a few generations. So for children in the next generations to grow up with parents who hopefully are working more flexibly, as you say, having different approaches to managing their money to really start seeing those differences. But we still saw the similar levels of difference in engagement and confidence in holding investment products

in the size of investment pots we saw similar levels amongst um you know millennials gen x baby boomers i don't know if it was you who actually coined the phrase std sexually transmitted debt but it certainly exists what exactly would you say that means? No, it certainly wasn't me. I couldn't claim that, I'm afraid, but it always makes people laugh. But of course, it's not a laughing matter at all. And what it means is, in particular, when couples split up, that it may well be that the woman stays in the house. And it depends partly whether they've had a joint account, of course. But if you've got a relationship which has not split up amicably, you've had a joint account. It may well be that the partner who's gone off may have spent the money or taken some of it with him or whatever.

And the woman stays at the same address. There may be occasions where it's her who's gone. Absolutely. It may be occasions where it's her who's gone. Absolutely, it may be. But if you're thinking about families with children, then it's much more likely that she will be staying at the same address in the house, I think. And of course, yes, it could be either way. But the person who stays at the same address may be the person who can get chased more easily for the debts that arise. I think the other thing which we haven't talked about, if we start talking about debt, the other thing we haven't talked about is, again, another

colleague who did qualitative research, Jackie Good, talking about men and their attitude to debt. And some of the things that she explored were the ways in which men feel in a way a kind of do-it-yourself mentality towards debt which is like do-it-yourself in the home if you like and therefore it may well be that they don't seek help until too late because they feel they ought to be able to sort it out. We were talking just now about men as breadwinners and so on. And this may be a consequence of that, that they feel they should be able to sort out the debt and therefore they don't necessarily get help until too late. And that, of course, may cause problems if they've got a partner. It may cause problems for the partner as well. Fran Bennett, Lucy Tobin and Sarah Pennells. And again, the whole programme,

of course, Thursday's edition of Woman's Hour is available as a podcast. If you listen to that and thought, actually, I've got more questions about money and where I sit in the world and how it looks for me in the future, it is worth listening to that programme, trust me. Becky says, I recently moved to the Netherlands with my boyfriend and went to the bank to set up a Dutch bank account. I've got a fair amount of savings, but I was still looking for work at the time. Now, despite those savings and my excellent credit history, the bank was actually reluctant to give me an account until they found out that my boyfriend was earning and that we lived together. It seemed to be a case of, well,

if you've got a man to take care of the finances, that's all right. And we can trust you with a bank account. Becky says, I was pretty appalled. Jan says, my husband died young and I was left with two young children and a house and a life to manage alone. If it hadn't been for the help I was given by financial advisors, I'd have been lost. I was educated and guided in money management by a brilliant financial advisor. And now, 20 years later, I'm proud that I've managed a loan and I'm solvent. But I'm shocked by how many of my married friends leave all the big money decisions and management to their husbands. They are intelligent, modern women. But frankly, they're often lazy about these matters.

And I wonder how they'll cope if they ever find themselves alone. Jan, thank you for that. Christine says, I'm listening to your programme this morning with increasing irritation. Lots of talk about women with children and or partners. I've yet to hear any mention of women on their own without children. Please try and have some balance. We are a massively underrepresented group on your programme anyway, but this just shouts that out more loudly than ever. Well, Christine, I'm sorry you feel that way. And we have certainly have talked in the past

about women in that very situation, but maybe it's high time we returned to that subject. Thank you for reminding us about that. Let's have a bit of music. Karine Polwar is well known on the folk music scene and her latest album Scottish Songbook is a little bit different. She's given a folk twist to some of the Scottish pop hits of her adolescence. You were there at the turnstiles with the wind at your heels You stretched for the stars, you know how it feels to reach too high Too far, too soon You saw the whole of the moon

Corrine, which were the bands that most inspired you? Well, the Waterboys were one of them. I'm a child of the 80s and Scottish pop music was kind of in'm a child of the 80s and Scottish pop music was kind of in its glory days in the 80s and quite a few of those bands are represented. Big Country who were a band that kind of really

spoke about industrial central Scotland which is where I grew up. The Blue Nile who were a bit more experimental kind of electronica and Simple Minds. I mean there were just so many fantastic bands to choose from. And of course, iconic female writers and singers like Annie Lennox. So yeah, it's been rich pickings to put this album together.

So why were you keen to make this album, which is different from what you normally do? It is and it isn't. I mean, the inspiration was a major exhibition at the National Museum of Scotland last year called Rip It Up. It was their main summer season exhibit and it was a 70 year kind of romp through Scottish pop history. And in connection with that, the Edinburgh International Festival curated a series of events that I was asked to be involved in. And I offered to put together a night of some of my favourite songs from the past 50 years.

I'm not far off 50. So that saw me kind of go from John Martin and Gerry Rafferty, the kind of songwriters of the 70s, through that classic 80s period and right up to kind of contemporary bands like Biffy Clyro and Churches. But what unites them all actually for me is what the songs are about I mean I'm a folk singer and a songwriter so for me it's always about the narrative content the social history the kind of emotional undercurrent and the fact that with a lot of quite big production songs you can pare away those layers and what you get left with is this skeletal framework of a song,

which is actually in its essence not that different from a 200-year-old ballad. So I take the same kind of approach to arranging these songs as any song. You've worked with children in the past, I think first teaching philosophy and then working in child protection and domestic abuse. How do those experiences feed into the music that you write? Well, they massively affect the music that I write and the music that I choose to sing, so the way that I interpret songs.

Because I think I've always been interested in the kind of nub end of human experience. Why is it that people treat each other as they do? And that's kind of the meat of what's of interest to me. And I think that comes from, very strongly, I have a memory of working in the field of domestic abuse for women's aid and going one night to a concert to hear a singer called Gardena McCulloch sing a 400-year-old song about domestic abuse.

And I was just really shocked and moved by this kind of lineage of experience across time. So that's really what's important to me both in my own writing but also in the way that I go about arranging songs. You've also mentioned Donald Trump and the golf course.

A few times. He's quite hard to avoid. Obviously these days very hard to avoid. But yeah, long before he became you know, was on the international scene. President of the United States. Indeed. Yeah, I've written about his use of land in Scotland over the past 10 years, in particular, his golf developments in Scotland, which have been very environmentally controversial. Essentially, he's ruined a site of special scientific interest in the north-east of Scotland.

So he's been a very controversial figure in Scotland, and he has Scottish ancestry. His mother was from the Isle of Lewis, and I have a piece that I wrote about that migration journey of his mother, Marianne MacLeod, from Lewis, called I Burn But I Am Not Consumed, which is the clan motto of the mcleods which is his mother's family and it's kind of an address to donald trump from the rock of the island of lewis

and i guess it tries to address address a feeling of brokenness and loss in him there's a kind of humanizing it's hard to do i confess but an attempt to kind of address him as a wayward son. Yeah, so Donald Trump has been a spectre in my music for a few years now. How popular is the folk scene now across the UK? I think it's very, very resilient, and in no small part due to the support of the BBC but also an amazing network of festivals and community based teaching organisations so it's thriving, there's a lot of young people coming through. I think in Scotland the situation is quite distinctive,

I think folk music perhaps has a higher kind of cultural store in Scotland. It's just a smaller place. And, you know, nowadays, even still, if you go to a wedding in Scotland, the odds are still on that you'll find a ceilidh band at the end of the night. And most people can sing a few traditional songs and burn songs. And often those songs appear at funerals and important markings in people's lives. So, yeah, I think it's very, very healthy. And to me, it should continue to be healthy for as long as it's relevant.

So it's important to me that folk music isn't a retrospective art form. It has to be resonant now. You have your guitar ready on your lap. Going to sing Deacon Blues, Dignity. Why that one? it's such an iconic song even if people hate this song in scotland everybody knows the words and it's a song of the 80s it's a song of de-industrialization it's a song that kind of rides the knife edge

between having a dream and despair so this is dignity he let me know a secret about the money in his kitty. He's gonna buy a dinghy and call her dignity. I'll sail her up the west coast through villages and towns. I'll be on my holidays and they'll be doing their rounds. They'll ask me how I got her and I'll say I saved my money. They'll be doing their rounds. They'll ask me how I got her and I'll say, I saved my money. They'll say, isn't she pretty? That ship called Dignity. Karine Polwart with her versions of Dignity by Deacon Blue and the incredible, I love the Waterboys,

the Waterboys song, The Hole of the Moon, which is how that all started. Now, on Monday's edition of Woman's Hour, we're talking about the long school summer holidays. They're just about to come to an end in Scotland, but they've just really barely got going, it feels, in the rest of the country. And that can, to put it mildly, be a challenge. So we talk about whether or not in the future we ought to give serious thought to stopping this long summer holiday. What was it for in the first place? Well, it was supposedly for children

to help bringing in the harvest. Doesn't really apply anymore. Maybe we should rethink the whole thing and the cost of it as well. How do you occupy the children for weeks on end? That is Monday's edition of Woman's Hour. Please do get involved as well on social media, Instagram and Twitter. We are at BBC Woman's Hour or you can contact the programme, of course, via email through the website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour.

Now, this is a slice of life which I knew nothing about. And I really felt quite humbled by listening to Dr. Amy Kavanagh, who is visually impaired. And she started using a white stick in public recently. And she's gone, she says, from being an invisible disabled woman to a very visible one. And this, she believes, has changed the way people treat her or feel they can treat her. I talked to Amy and to Dr Hannah Mason-Bish, the director of the Centre for Gender Studies at Sussex University. She'd read about Amy's experiences on Twitter. Pretty much every day, complete strangers, members of the public touch me. They pull me onto trains, they grab me at the side of the road and drag me into traffic. They try and pull and push me around a coffee shop.

And it's constant and unrelenting and pretty unpleasant, to be honest. How much of it is well-intentioned, do you think? I think a lot of people in the UK panic about disability. It makes them feel very awkward. We know that a lot of people don't want to interact with disabled people very much and so they panic and their natural instinct is to use their hands instead of their words. I navigate the world very differently. I am visually impaired. You know when I'm stood at a road crossing I think it causes a lot of people panic

but all I want them to do is just ask me if I need help first, because regardless of how good their intentions are, being grabbed suddenly with no warning is absolutely terrifying. And good intentions can have really unpleasant consequences like being injured, pain, damage to my mobility equipment. And Amy, what about when it is rather worse than, well, much worse than that, when actually you are touched in ways that are, well, criminal and clearly unwelcome? Yeah, I would say that it probably happens at least a couple of times a month that persons, usually men, will use the offer of help or the opportunity to interact with me to grope me, to make inappropriate sexual comments, to try and physically stop me leaving a location. And it's very difficult to distinguish when that first person puts their

hands on you, when it is, you know, a nice person trying to help me across the road, or the next person that's gonna grab me by the arm until they've finished groping me. Twice a month, you say this happens on average? Yeah, about that sometimes more depends on how busy my life is you know if I'm traveling around for work but yeah I mean being touched by strangers is every single day and even those well-intentioned touches like I'm not a slim lady like when someone grabs my arm they're often you know grazing a bosom or you know it's just a very intrusive and personal act without my consent.

And when did you start tweeting about it? So it was about a few weeks into using a white cane. I enjoy social media. It's a fantastic way for disabled people to connect with each other. There's a big community on there. And I started saying, well, people keep touching me. Why does this keep happening? Is it something about me? Is it something about London, perhaps? And hundreds of disabled people got in contact to say, it happens to me as well. You know, people push my wheelchair, people grab my guide dog's lead, they pull my crutch from underneath me. It just seems an absolutely normal part of everyday experience for disabled people. Well, Amy, somebody who read your tweets can join us now. Dr. Hannah Mason-Bish,

Director of the Centre for Gender Studies at Sussex University. And you're carrying out some important research, aren't you, Hannah? Yeah, so Amy and I are doing some research together. I came at this from the other side in that I'm not disabled, but I've been researching hate crime for about 15 years and I've always been interested in gender and why gender is often excluded from hate crime policy and when Nottinghamshire Police started to classify misogyny as a form of hate crime two or three years ago it struck me that the experiences of disabled women were often missing from research and from the discussion.

And that when I saw what Amy was writing about, it made me realise that the touching that people are experiencing sits on a spectrum from hostility, violence, sexual harassment to everyday touching. Amy, I know you've been outspoken on this and you're proud, I know, to be outspoken. You have said that you believe that disabled women have been excluded from campaigns like Everyday Sexism and the hashtag MeToo as well. Yeah, I think it's just an uncomfortable truth. I think disabled women are simultaneously portrayed as vulnerable, sexless, undesirable, but also... What, fair game, effectively? I think it's a complicated combination

because we're similarly childlike and innocent, but also an easy target. Disabled women and women with a long-term illness are twice as likely to experience sexual assault. That was found in the 2017 crime survey. But people don't talk about it. It makes them feel very uncomfortable that a blind woman gets groped.

Hannah? Yeah, I mean, I agree. And I think where it comes down to and what's coming out in the stories is about consent and about the consent of disabled people, and particularly disabled women, where we're talking about sexual harassment, is not valid or not warranted or not even asked for. And even when the women say, no, can you not touch me me please don't do that they're

completely ignored or it escalates quite quickly towards hostility and that you're ungrateful and various other things so this issue of consent is really at the key of what we're finding and what women are talking about. Amy how have you reacted when let's say a man has groped your breast on public transport in London what are you able to do about it in the moment to be honest very little I think two years of these experiences has taught me that as Hannah says pretty much any reaction usually creates a very hostile and aggressive response what about the people around you do they not notice is there not someone you could speak to the thing is that it's done in quite a tactical way. So often there is an announcement from the individual like, oh, I'm going to help you. And then the minute I start making a fuss,

it's seen as, oh, that ungrateful woman, that nice man's just helping her off the bus or whatever. And they do it in a really sneaky, tactical way. There was another activist online who talked about a man who physically took hold of her wheelchair and started pushing her down the pavement. And she was screaming, help me, help me, I don't know this man, and no one intervened. I mean, on your behalf, I am livid for what it's worth. But I just want to know, I know that you have said, Amy, that the worst offenders are actually people like myself in some cases middle-aged women who to be fair I would say that back when I was 25 or when I was nearer your age I would have been too shy to intervene too hopeless and helpless now I'm likely to intervene

but I might get it wrong so how do I get it right if I see you Amy going about your legitimate business as a working woman in London, how do I help if I want to get it right? So I think the first thing is always assess the situation. Often people want to help and they feel this urge when actually, you know, I'm quite happy. Just because I navigate the world differently from you doesn't mean I always need that intervention. So see if there is a hazard or an issue or if someone is just merrily going about. Introduce yourself. Say, hello, you know, I'm Jeff or Kirsty or Brian or whoever.

Would you like some assistance? And then listen to the answer and respect it. A no is not rude. You haven't offended anyone. It's just someone that doesn't need help in that moment. Listen to what you can do, how you should touch that person and their mobility aids because often people will jump in and get enthusiastic and if you do have good intentions the worst thing you want to do is frighten someone or hurt them like that i definitely get that and i think you are you're in on the waiting list for a guide dog aren't you yeah and i believe that you believe

it's going to be less likely that the sexual harassment when you've got a dog? I think some men are scared of dogs. And I think they think the dog might be a threat. Obviously, guide dogs are extremely well-trained assistance animals. They're not a threat to anyone. Anecdotally, I've heard it slightly improves the situation. But really, I'm bored of taking personal measures. I'm bored of never stopping in the street for fear of being touched. I'm bored of trying every single set of for fear of being touched. I'm bored

of trying every single set of train doors to avoid someone dragging me in. I want people to share the message that you must always ask before you touch a disabled person. Respect them like you want your own consent because we are adults and we are capable and we just want the same autonomy as everyone else. Dr. Amy Kavanagh and Dr. Hannah Mason-Bish. And here are some emails on the subject. From a listener called Jane, Amy was so right about helping disabled folk against their will. It can be frightening. And I would add that sometimes it is entirely wrong medically. I've had a few strokes and I tend to be very unsteady on my feet.

As part of rehab, I walk around wards holding walls and wobbling to get a paper at the shop. It's important to get mobile and not have visitors grabbing me and sitting me in a chair and seeking a staff member to help me. Thank you, Amy, for speaking up about unwanted help. Well, thank you, Jane, and I hope your recovery continues. Now, there are just a couple of weeks to prepare if your child is starting primary school in September and in Scotland, of course, hardly any time at all. So what are some useful things you can be doing with your child in the last couple of days or weeks that would be helpful?

I've been talking to the early years consultant, Helen Stroudley to Viba Gay who has children aged seven and nine. My boy is like an extrovert, you know, open. My girl is a bit shy so I really had different experiences with both of them. It was easier for Arvind to make friends. He walked into school, he had so many friends straight away. With Anvi, she was a bit shy. The teacher had to assign buddies to her that she could talk to. Yeah, and because you'd gone to the school and you'd said that your little girl perhaps was a little bit nervous, that they were understanding, were they?

The teachers were so understanding, you know. One of the advantages that I had was when my son started school, my daughter always used to go with her dad to the school, you know, to drop him and she would always get those five minutes to play in his class when she was like two, two and a half years old. So when she started school, she knew the teachers and the teachers were so welcoming to her. They even visited us at home before she started. You know, the teachers knew what she liked, you know, what she got excited about. She would like to read about Peppa Pig. So she was welcomed with those sort of books.

Right. So they really did lay out the red carpet from the sound of things. That sounds absolutely fantastic. Absolutely. Helen, how much preparation should parents do before primary school? Well, it's really about everyday things that they've already been doing all of these years leading up to this point but it is a big big worry all of a sudden they're thinking summer holidays are going to be over and off they go and what haven't they done and I absolutely would say not to worry all the things you've been doing in everyday life is what's been important getting them ready. Well how but you mean by I don't know chatting as you go about your daily business? Absolutely so talking but also listening to children.

Because learning to listen, you need to be listened to. So that's a really important skill. But just as everyday independent things, things like getting dressed every day, putting on your clothes, being able to put your shoes on, being able to collect things that you need, listening to instructions. Lots of things that you're doing all the time. Well, the listeners have been getting involved all morning. And here's one listener who says, make your child excited, not scared, by talking about how fantastic school is. I did this every

morning for a fortnight before my fall began, and none had tears on their first day. Parents can project their own fears and add to a child's worries. Well, that's true, isn't it? Absolutely. But it's very hard not to be worried. So I would say to parents, absolutely. But it's really good. You know your child best. So you share some fantastic experiences maybe that you had at school. Or if you didn't, maybe it's a case of thinking about what could be happening there that is exciting. Because really, it's play in that classroom when they're going to be learning. So the more confident and happy they go to school, the better they'll get on. Around this time of year, we get these sorts of headlines. This is

actually from the June of last year, 2018. Children starting school unable to speak or use the toilet, Ofsted head warns. And this was Amanda Spielman talking last year. More and more children starting school without being able to talk properly or even use the toilet. Is that actually a problem that is getting worse? And it's undeniable, Helen. It is a problem that schools are finding. But actually, obviously, things make headlines. So they sort of write these big headlines. But actually, it's about every child is very, very different. But yes, speech and language is an area that we really need to support parents and children in and it is those everyday things that they're doing and having time to do so doing that listening as they're going around their everyday lives when they're going to the shops

talking about everyday things really helps their speech and language it's not about the reading and writing that people often worry about when it's getting to school it's getting ready for those things but toilets because our ta who contacted us earlier to point out that it really really helps the school if every child in reception can wipe their own bottom and frankly can get to the loo on time absolutely and is it is that problem getting worse it's it's not necessarily getting worse i think it's a um it it is a situation where we need to support families. And there is lots of advice out there. And actually, it's quite straightforward. I'm going to, but you take my point, these are basics, which any carer of a small child should be able to communicate to their offspring or the person they're caring for.

Yes, but actually, it's one of those things that we often get worried about. So parents often worry about sleep, eating, toilet training, and actually the more worried we are, actually the more problems often happen. So we need to give some really clear ideas of what to do that really puts the force. If we put pressure on children too early, they actually have more problems, which we don't want. We want children to be able to feel confident, to be able to go to the toilet. Vee, but can I just ask about your kids in terms of what they could read or whether they could read? I mean, my children certainly

couldn't read before they went to primary school. Did you show them books or encourage them to read or try to teach them? Yeah, I mean, before they started school, we always have had books in our house. Obviously, you wouldn't expect them to read and write A, B, C, D. But as far as they know how to hold a pen, they know that they need to scribble on a book rather than on the wall. I think that's job done, you know. And I actually agree with Helen. You know, every child is really, really different. It's not about having your ambitions on your child but letting them grow with their speed

for example with toilet training you know it's summertime and I always used to leave them open go and play out in the summer at the max what you will get wet that's it that's normal that's how they'll come and tell me you know and surprisingly they left their diapers by they were 18 months you ought to write a book about that, actually. I think a lot of people will be saying, right, I need to know Weber's method and I need to know it quickly. A question for you, Helen. My daughter is summer born, says this listener, and has global development delay. But she is reading and she's academically able.

So we've enrolled her in primary school this September. How will we know if we've made a mistake and put her in too early we are worried she's going to struggle socially that's a really really good question actually and I think I would say to your listener there that she knows her child best she knows how she is and talk to the teacher listen to your child because they will tell you how they're getting on and listening to them and actually having conversations, talking to the teachers. You'll be surprised how much you'll be reassured.

Often it's us that worry more than the children when they go. But you know your child best. And from Caris, label everything. I get the impression that Caris may have suffered a bit here. Label everything, she says. Let your child know where, label everything. I get the impression that Caris may have suffered a bit here. Label everything, she says. Let your child know where the label is. We have a fabulous mountain of mystery garments at the end of every year. It sounds like she's in the teaching profession.

I agree completely with the toileting advice. It's crucial. And buy a coat a size bigger so your child can do it up easily themselves. There we go. I hadn't thought of that. That's a very good top tip. Veeba, you actually also made a point of reaching out to other new parents, didn't you? Yes, that's correct. Yeah.

And that helped? It did help because unless you know people around, unless you are comfortable, you will not be able to communicate to your child. The child will pick up very easily that my parent is stressed. So by talking to other parents, by making friends, I knew the community, I knew the teachers, I knew where the child was going. And I could, you know, communicate that to my children. They were at ease when they started. They already had been on playdates with the school friends. Yeah. So there was nothing new for them, really. Viva Gay and Helen Stroudley.

Claire says, if children start school at four, then surely schools need to adjust to meet the needs of very young children rather than the other way round. Wiping your own bottom is a physical development like walking and talking. It can be aided,

but it can't really be taught as such before a child is ready for it. Most continence problems start with school and anxiety around using the toilet, including lots of children stopping going for a poo when they're at school. It just seems to be an issue that schools ignore, and to hear the advice, teach them how to wipe their own bum, reinforces this. School toilets and continence issues and toilet anxiety, often leading to constipation, needs a whole programme of its own. Yes, I don't disagree, Claire, so maybe that is something that we should think about doing.

There is a new series of GLOW, the wrestling show, starting on Netflix, so we thought that was a good excuse to talk to British wrestler Heather Vandenberg, a.k.a. La Rana Venenoza, the Queen of the Sewer. She describes her wrestling as effectively her main vehicle of feminist resistance. She's written a book about wrestling called The Unladylike, A Girl's Guide to Wrestling. I was put off exercise by netball, most definitely, and punk rock at school. But in order to become a wrestler, you have to reach a ridiculous level of peak fitness, as well as being essentially part of a violent pantomime.

So I've really found again vehicle of feminist resistance also the only exercise I've ever enjoyed in my life why do you enjoy it I can't really explain it other than even in sports when I like to hope that it's changed since I was a child but as a girl you're told to not take up too much space and you're told to make sure you're prim and proper and you're not clumsy wrestling requires you to make so much sound and be strong and take up space and be aggressive and all these things that I think are really important parts of being a woman and I find strength in them and it celebrates that and it also essentially means you can become a complete alter ego while doing it,

make up a character and basically become your own superhero. Is it sexualised? Oh, yeah. I think that it's changed a lot in the last 10 years. And I'm so grateful. And it's because of so much hard work from a community of both male and female wrestlers to get women respected. But women have been wrestling as long as men,

you know, for about 100 years or so. And since day one, just because they're not men, they're seen as trying to be part of a male sport. So, you know, the easiest way to get a woman as part of the show is to make her into some kind of sort of cheesecake or sexualised attraction. The novelty thing. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Even when i started off about seven years ago you know you basically couldn't get bookings if you're a woman unless you wore a bikini had nice hair and had a tan and even then your match would be referred to as the p break essentially because the audience would use that opportunity to have a break so that they could stay and watch the actual wrestling you You do wrestle men, don't you? I do, absolutely. And tell me about when you first started doing that. So I first started wrestling by accident.

I was a stand-up comedian. I used to have a show about Cher, the other love of my life, the singer. And I went to a place called the Resistance Gallery in East London and the guy behind the bar said, oh, you clearly don't mind making a fool of yourself. We need more women like you in wrestling. Would you like to come and try a free session? So I turned up to the London School of Lucha Libre. And it was my...

London School of what? Lucha Libre. So Lucha Libre is free fighting. It's like a form of wrestling. But basically, I went with my friend Rebecca Biscuit. And we both hated exercise and we turned up and there's just this room full of these enormous men all sort of throwing themselves around and about three women who were all actually you know stonkers and were

very friendly and everyone was so kind and we basically just did forward rolls and took it in turns to pretend to throw each other into a wall. Now, it wasn't Rebecca's nose that you broke, was it? It was not Rebecca's nose. Whose nose was it? La Tigressa, who's a close personal friend. And your bridesmaid, in fact. And my bridesmaid at my wedding. And how did you break her nose?

My finisher involves me jumping off the top rope and aiming with my lady parts to my opponent's face. It's not a very, I can't say the name of my finisher on the radio. No, you can't. Just had a minor panic there. Yeah, no, she didn't turn her face in time. And unfortunately, I almost broke her nose and my pubic bone. That's probably the worst injury I've inflicted on someone.

I just think this is worth repeating. You broke your bridesmaids okay you almost i mean i'm a journalist you can exaggerate a bit you almost broke your bridesmaids nose with your pubic bone how many of us can say that honestly no i'm so pleased that that's what's come from this interview not that i've wrestled in front of 2 000 people but the fact that i almost broke someone's nose. She was a model and she had a photo shoot the next day. She was furious.

It took about a year. I'm not surprised she was furious, love. Okay, the new series of Glow, I think it's about to start on Netflix. Do you watch it? Is it true to your experience? So Glow actually I think is great because on one hand it kind of brings people who don't know necessarily about wrestling, particularly women, into the world of, you know, fake choreographed violence.

And it's one of the, it's the first show to my knowledge actually looks at things like sexualisation, racism, representation, drugs in wrestling in a way that actually tries to tackle them and talk about them instead of just covering them up well you are of course uh a lady in waiting you're pregnant so you were not wrestling for any of our more delicate listeners thinking i hope she's got about tonight you you are not wrestling at the moment klondike kate actually famous wrestler realized she was pregnant eight months in did you yeah um no. No, I'm not wrestling. When will you be back in the ring? I will be very much still training as soon as I can. Obviously, breast milk, depending.

Heather Vandenberg talking about returning to the ring after she's had her baby. And the reason we were talking there about breast milk was because we'd had an earlier conversation in that programme, that was Tuesday's programme, about breast milk milk donation so if that is something you're interested in that is Tuesday's edition of the program which you can hear via you guessed it BBC Sounds. So join us live Monday morning just after 10 when we're talking about how to fill the long summer holidays. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex

stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.