Woman's Hour - Director Sam Taylor-Johnson, Actor and model Cara Delevingne

Episode Date: August 30, 2019

The artist Sam Taylor-Johnson began her career as a photographer, part of the Young British Artists set. She moved into film and became a household name when she took the helm of Fifty Shades of Grey. She talks about her new film A Million Little Pieces, based on a story by James Frey , the challenges for women in the industry and what it's like directing your husband's love scenes. Cara Delevingne is one of the most recognisable faces in the world with over 43 million followers on Instagram alone. She’s spoken openly about her sexuality and issues with severe depression. She began modelling when she left school but is now is concentrating more on her acting career. She plays the lead role in a new Victorian fantasy drama series Carnival Row. She joins Jenni to discuss her role as Irish ‘faery’ Vignette Stonemoss opposite human detective Rycroft Philostrate played by Orlando Bloom. Plus new research into the profile of men who kill their partners that could save lives. And we take a trip to Looe Island - now owned by the Cornwall Wildlife Trust - for a bit of seal watching and hear from Claire Lewis and her partner John who's the warden. Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Beverley PurcellGuest: Sam Taylor-Johnson Guest: Cara Delevingne Guest: Dr Jane Monckton

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast on Friday the 30th of August. In today's programme, Cara Delevingne, who's a model, actor and has 43 million followers on Instagram. How's she coping with playing a fairy in the new television series Carnival Row? Profile of a killer. A forensic criminologist has found what she calls a homicide

timeline among men who kill their female partners. What can the police learn from her research? And Lou Island, yes, that's Lou, not love, it was bought in the 60s by two sisters who lived there till their deaths. What impact has the Cornwall Wildlife Trust had since it took over? Sam Taylor-Johnson began her career as a photographer and was one of the young British artist group who began exhibiting in the late 1980s. It included Tracey Emin, Damien Hirst and Gillian Waring. She began to make her way in films when she directed Nowhere Boy, starring Erin Taylor-Johnson as the young John Lennon she and Erin would go on to marry. Next, she took on Fifty Shades of Grey as director,

and her latest film has just been released. It's called A Million Little Pieces and is based on the book written by James Frey, recounting his time as a young crack cocaine addict in a rehabilitation centre. Aaron plays Fry in the film. What appealed to her about the story? Well, I'd read the book back when it came out. And I remember just how it affected me, how powerful the story was. And I like the unique way in which he wrote it. And it felt very different in storytelling. And I've kind of tracked it through the years of it potentially becoming a movie, being with a big studio, being with different film directors.

And although as an artist, not a filmmaker, then I kept thinking this is going to make a great movie and having a tinge of jealousy every time they announced which director was going to do it. And so when the opportunity arose and I'd heard he had the rights back to his book, and I was a filmmaker, I jumped on them. Now, your film is very graphic about what it's like for a young man to go through and be treated for addictions to crack cocaine and alcohol. What do you reckon is the appeal for an audience of such dark times? Well, I think what I hope the film does is it's dark and light almost in equal measure, that as you go into the darkness of what he's dealing with, the lightness will come in, there is humour there, so it balances. But I think the biggest thing for me with that and with the darkness of the subject matter there is hope and and that you

come to a place of hope and redemption at the end of it so that you can feel that there is light there the support there and you know the movie is very much about community as well you've had some dark times of your own plenty so why are you interested in dark times and hope? I think because when I, you know, I've been through, you know, two bouts of cancer and one when I was 29, one when I was 32 or three, and I like the fact I can't remember, is the hardest thing. Well, there's many difficult moments, but when you're in that darkness, you really need to find the hope. You really need to find the light, and you really need to be able to pin that hope onto something, someone, a story.

And often it's reported, you know, all the sadness and those that haven't made it, and to know of one person that has been through it and they're doing well and going on that journey through was enormous for me. So I think, you know, telling a story like this that shows, you know, the, the community spirit or of, of this person, um, coming through something like that was, I think is always important for me. And, and the important thing to take away from it for me also was that, you know, James Fry went into rehab in 1993 and is still sober today and fighting strong. Now, your husband, Aaron, plays Fry in the film.

And sitting watching it, I thought, what must it be like to film your own husband having root canal surgery without an anaesthetic and I know he was only pretending yeah you know that was actually the hardest day of the shoot and we didn't have many days to make this film in fact only 20 but that day I found the most painful to watch because although that you know it wasn't you know we're filming it and and I knew the drill wasn't really hitting the tooth the sounds and the way he was handling it and I couldn't watch a couple of times I just thought god this has to end and of course I had to cover it from every angle and and keep making sure that we were telling it the right way. But that was the toughest.

And James also falls in love with a woman who is in the clinic with him. And they have a beautiful relationship in the film. And again, I wondered, what's it like to watch your own husband falling in love with another woman? It was a day when I turned to my first assistant director and said, did you really have to schedule this on Valentine's Day? And he said, oh, God, is it? Oh, God, it is. It is. I said, it's OK. I'm professional. I can do this.

And, you know, luckily, luckily, I can I can separate myself and do that. I'm not saying it's easy and I'm human, but yeah, Valentine's Day was a slight sort of a difficult moment when I realised that. Now, the subject of addiction I know had affected a number of the people involved in the film. Why were they keen to take part? Because you couldn't even offer them much money. No, really everyone on this film worked for scale, the lowest we could pay. But everyone came with a real sense of, well, it became a community creating a film about a community supporting somebody going through addiction and recovery. And a lot of people on the set

had been through recovery and were still in recovery. And I think for them, it felt, they said it was one for the soul and one to give back and to feel that this story was an important one to be told. And so that was encouraging for me and also to be able to have people on set who could say, yes into the film in a helpful, positive way or in a way that maybe people who are going through it can understand. And so that was important and incredibly helpful. America is now in the grip of an opioid crisis, not the crack again and alcohol that James spoke about. How did that affect the approach to the story? Well, making a story like this comes with a level, I think, of responsibility.

So Aaron and James and I went to the facility where he had been treated in 93. And so we met with the counsellors and we went around the facility. Obviously, we had to respect that it's a very private and sacred space. So we never sat in on any meetings. But it was really to understand what the counsellors are dealing with and how that facility is there to help people. And also to understand that, you know, in James's time, crack, cocaine and alcohol were the three biggest addictions and what they were dealing with. And today, they said that it is opioids, it is prescription drugs that they are having to deal with more than anything. James Fry's book became

hugely controversial in the mid 2000s. It was billeded as a memoir and later found to be partly fiction. How did you decide to handle that controversy? Well, we talked about whether we should include any of the interview with Oprah in the movie or should we add anything at the end and we both decided that actually it was the book and what that had done, specifically to me and my kind of DNA when I read it,

was still the same through that. And so I felt like the book was enough to focus on. And also, it also gave me a freedom in a sense that, you know, it's 500 pages condensed into a 90-page script. And so, you know, when you're watching it, five characters are now in one because we couldn't sort of go into the lives of all five. So we're so in the world of James's imagination as well as his journey

that it felt that we could actually allow the controversy to be its own thing as it is and be read about and that this wasn't a documentary it was fiction you were known originally as sam taylor wood yeah as an artist and particularly for a series of photos that i remember very clearly of men crying what is it about male vulnerability that inspires you well the crying men Crying Men series was really about Hollywood men actors at the top of their game. I was asked to do a portfolio for GQ magazine and I was thinking, well, I don't need to continue to inflate the egos and to present the beauty and the masculine. I'd like to see

these people in a more vulnerable, more human, more personal space. And I think that is across the board in my work. And I think it is, you know, from my perspective as a woman artist, as a woman filmmaker, something I am more interested in and continue to be. Why exactly, I'm not sure where I can pinpoint it, but it is something that I do continue to get drawn to. And how easy has it been to develop a career as a woman filmmaker? It's difficult. It really is truly difficult. And there is, there are many doors that slam in my face, despite making, you know, one of the biggest blockbusters and 50 Shades of Grey, 50 Shades of Grey. And, you know, I felt like that would open doors. It was one of the reasons I wanted to take on something like that, because I thought, well, this will enable me to be able to make things

you know at a bigger level budget and uh bigger stories and and those things but actually it was every time I make a movie I go to ground zero every time I feel and it's not just about getting the movie made it's about getting in the room it's about getting in the room, it's about getting the meetings, about being on the list. And it doesn't get any easier and it doesn't change as you feel like you should be climbing up the ladder. So, you know, I always say to sort of other women filmmakers, you know, when the door slams in your face, kick it open. Because that's the only way to do it. And I dollstop people when I want to get certain jobs because I find that if I don't, my name naturally doesn't go on lists. I can understand the interest in Fifty Shades

because it was hugely successful to kind of advance your career. But I remember at the time being ever so slightly puzzled. Why is Sam doing this? What really interested you about it? I'm a sucker for a challenge. And I remember thinking, I was actually working on another movie, a period drama that didn't get made.

And I was frustrated and really ready to make a movie. And the producer on that had said to me, why don't you go in? They're meeting people. And he said, you know, read the book and come in next week. So I read the book and I saw a path. And if I couldn't have seen that path, I wouldn't have been able to do it.

But I saw a very clear path about how I wanted to make that movie. And I went in with a very clear vision. And to a certain degree, it's there. But you always, you know, you do have to make compromises along the way. Some of them were much bigger than I actually wanted to make. And also I say to a lot of people, I learned a lot of things I didn't want to learn.

What did you learn that you didn't want to learn? The art of how to deal with conflict, the art of the things that I tend to shy away from and, you know, and how you compromise for a bigger picture, how, you know, daily you come up against struggles of trying to keep authentic to yourself, those things. And how do you do that in, you know, over what was a two-year period? How do you wake up every day and deal with those things? And ultimately, you know, it's that thing. It made me stronger, but, you know, sometimes I wonder,

did I need to learn all of those lessons? I guess I did. How much was the film, when it finally came to the screen, what you had envisaged? Because I remember you saying you'd seen it as a fairy story. I saw it as a very sort of dark fairy story in the structure of a fairy tale, if you like, the dark prince and this young girl

and just knowing that I wanted her to sort of usurp him at the end. That was my ultimate goal. And I think and believe that that is in existence in the movie, and I'm proud of how I managed to tell the tale I wanted to tell through the difficulties along the way. And I think that ultimately the film worked well in that the vision I initially went in with may have been different, but what it came out with worked.

A Million Little Pieces, directed by Sam Taylor-Johnson, is out today. We know that it's not uncommon for a woman to be killed by a male partner or one from whom she's recently separated. Domestic violence charities quote a figure of two women killed each week in England and Wales based on an Office for National Statistics average from 2016 taken over 10 years. Well Dr Jane Monckton-Smith is a forensic criminologist at the University of Gloucestershire whose research into 372 such killings has led her to what she calls a homicide timeline. Jane, what prompted you to do this research?

Well, I'm a researcher in homicide more generally, and it's really not unusual to form timelines for different sorts of homicide, and it helps us with the motivation and the escalation. And that's why nobody had done it for these kinds of murders, and they're so very common. How did you carry out the research? Well, I was able to gather 372 cases. I was able to gather a lot of information.

So what I did was look at them as case studies, and each case we had lots of different information. In some, I was able to interview the killers. In many, I was able to interview the families. So we got lots of really interesting information. Now, I said you've said there's a homicide timeline. What is it? The timeline is a sequence of events, and I was able to put it into eight clear stages,

starting from when, before really, two people meet, to when perhaps one person ends up getting killed. And it's the stages that the perpetrator goes through, what their thinking is and what their motivation is to end up killing somebody. And how truly universal is that? Have you been able to, in every case, say these eight stages are what he went through? Yeah, that's quite astonishing, isn't it? Because we did find that this is in the majority of cases. This isn't just happening in, you know, 50% or 60%. It's much higher than that. And I think that that's probably one of the most shocking things, but also one of the most useful things as well. Now, it starts with you saying that you need to look at a relationship that's occurred before and see if there was violent or controlling behaviour in a previous

relationship. To what extent is that a hint that it will happen again? I think it's, I'm an academic and I'm not supposed to talk in absolutes but I'm happy to say that it will always be a problem. If somebody is that kind of person that they need control, they're very possessive and they're very jealous, that's who they are. It's not how they are with a particular person. So it's always a red flag. How do they involve themselves in the new relationship at the beginning? You give the impression that they can be very passionate and very loving and very involved, but the jealousy is there at the start. I think you're probably able to see possessiveness and jealousy in the way things start to pan out.

But in those very early stages, things are often speeded up. But they're speeded up because what the controlling person is actually looking for is a commitment. Once they've got the commitment, that's when things start to change. And how quickly, I mean, we've gone through two stages now, there are six more. How quickly does it get to the point where there is real danger? Well, stage three, which is, you know, when you're in a relationship with somebody like this dominated by coercive control, we had cases where that lasted three weeks, and we had cases where it lasted 54 years. So it's not so much about the relationship, it's when there's a challenge to it. Why is defining this kind of sequential pattern really useful? Well, first of all, the pattern tells us about the motivation and what the person's

thinking, but it also tells us when things are starting to get dangerous and so you know if you go to the police and report something like stalking or coercive control whereas before we might have just thought it's part of a relationship now we can see that it's part of an escalation. How often does this start to happen when the woman tries to get away? Or does it also often happen if they're still together? Well, globally, this has been found, not just here. Separation is the most significant trigger point.

That's when things are likely to escalate. How, then, can this knowledge be used to actually save lives? I think the police will find it useful, especially when they're receiving reports of stalking, because stalking is a sign of real danger. Victims can find it useful as well. I've talked to many victims, many bereaved families who said, well, this really explains, cleared the mess in my head, cleared what looked like a chaotic situation and put some order and made it easier to understand what's been the response of the police to your research have you had a response yet we've had a very positive response from the police and from the probation service from health services social services because what they they can all relate to it. I haven't met a professional yet who didn't have some cases that they said, goodness, yes, I can absolutely relate to this.

And police are using it and so are the probation service. So to what extent is it really useful for a woman, if she suspects the man she's getting involved with, has been violent before, how useful is that knowledge to her? Well, I would say, grab your coat and run. Some people will not do that, but it tells them, slow things down, make sure that you have some control over what's going on, and plan for what might happen in the future.

Dr Jane Monckton-Smith, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now still to come in today's programme, Loo Island, once the home of two sisters who bought it in 1965. What's it like now the Cornwall Wildlife Trust has taken it over? And the serial, the final episode of The Country Girls. Now Cara Delevingne is one of the most recognisable and most photographed faces in the world. You may have seen her in the papers this morning,

removing the fluff from the jumper of Orlando Bloom at the premiere of their new television series, Carnival Row. She has more than 43 million followers on Instagram. She's spoken openly about her sexuality, a history of severe depression and her difficulties growing up within a privileged background. She began modelling when she left school but she's now concentrating on her acting career. She plays the lead role of a fairy in Carnival Row which is a Victorian fantasy that's been compared with another famous fantasy series, Game of Thrones.

How would Cara describe it? I think when people try and compare it to Game of Thrones, it's a little bit lazy, only because it's a fantasy. And yes, I know Game of Thrones has ended, and I know this has now started. But we did this two years ago, and the concept, the idea, the land, the world, everything is different. You know, it's a neo-Victorian fantasy crime drama with a love story,

which also has this beautiful underlying social commentary, which is not so beautiful. It's actually terrifying. But it's kind of using fantasy to really look back and have a mirror at what's going on in the world right now. And I think that's really, I think it's important. And I really do think that, you know, people are scared or almost, you know, like, would prefer to be ignorant to what, you know, the pain and the suffering is going on in the world.

Now, Orlando Bloom plays a detective hunting someone with a grudge against the immigrant fairies of whom you are one. So how much is the series specifically reflecting themes of immigration and xenophobia? It's mirroring it in a way that is terrifying, but also it's really talking about power. And I think, you know, the way that certain governments or people have power and like to use power to make fear and have power to make people fear each other instead of actually fearing the people in power. Fear is a way of controlling people. Fear is a way of going, OK, don't like your neighbour because they're the ones that are going to do this.

It's a way of control to keep people scared, to keep people wanting to look for answers and to look for people who are in control. It's almost wrong because the world and the people living in the world are the ones who know the reality of it. And I think that's what it's talking about. Now, you play a fairy called Vignette. How would you describe her?

Vignette Stone Moss. You don't know a lot about her, exactly where she's come from, or you know that she's a survivor. She has come through hell to kind of get to where she is, and she still has this heart. The thing I think about her is she obviously has had to grow a tough skin to survive, which we all do. But a lot of the time people who get hurt or people get heartbroken they kind of i i've had this before

where you kind of harden your heart a bit and you don't let people in and you kind of get a bit more you know you kind of shut your heart away and with her she has this tough skin but her heart is still so open and so instead of kind of trying to have revenge or kind of hate people she all she wants to do is forgive and to have compassion and to still love and understand. And I think that's her best quality. And I think that's the point of the fairies, which is what I think humans need to learn from more is that like we're all sensitive. And in this day and age, sensitivity is kind of beaten out of us or aggressively told that, you know, having emotions is too much in this world. But emotions are the things that are going to save us.

Our empathy for each other and compassion for each other are the things that we need most. Now, the fairies have wings. Yes. Which presumably meant you had to learn how to fly. How difficult was that? I've done wire work before. I actually played Peter Pan once as an understudy

when I was doing the show when I was a kid in a play, and I'd done a couple of things with wires. but stunts for me, I don't know why, but in a lot of films I've had to do a lot of stunts. And for me as a woman, it's always felt quite important not to be the female Tom Cruise, but to be able to do my own stunts and to physically embody the characters. Because the physicality for a character to me is so important. And I want to be able to do everything that the character does. So for this, it was, you know, a lot more training

and, you know, maybe some dangerous aspects of it because at the end of the day, you're being held up by a man on a rope, on a wire. And the weird thing was, is by the end of the show, I didn't even know the guy's name. And I was like, you've literally been holding my life in your hands for the whole six months and I don't even know your name and that is so rude.

But it's a really big element of trust and it was um it was an amazing experience and it also helped the character for me so much because I think the way that fairies are able to fly in and out of situations really changed for me the character otherwise I wouldn't have been able to play it the way I did I think you play her with an Irish accent I do it was my idea to do the Irish accent the first audition I went in you know they asked for an English accent but I was like can I do it in an Irish one too it just made sense you know the first time I heard of a Fae it was from Ireland that was I'm pretty sure the people who invented Fae's fairies um and the way Irish people speak is so lyrical and beautiful and you know we ask questions and it

goes up they ask questions it goes down there's so much have so much more melody in their language the way they speak I mean I've always, I have a lot of Irish friends, but I've always had this infinity for the Irish accent. So it wasn't that hard to learn. I didn't want it to seem like it was from anywhere in Ireland. I don't want people to be like, oh, that fairy's from this place in Ireland. It kind of was just more about the idea of the Irish,

the romanticism of the language as a bit of itself. How easy was it for you to break into acting when you were so well known for modelling? It's going to be very hard. You're a model. People aren't going to take you seriously. And I was like, just give me a couple of weeks, send me to some auditions and I'll prove to you I can act. And I didn't get anything because it took a long time to do that. But she was like, OK, fine. So she took me on. And it was a long process. You know, all of the scripts, all of the parts I got were like dumb blonde who gets killed. Stupid girlfriend. It was just so infuriating because that's not the part I'm ever going to play ever. You know, and that's fine if

people do. That's just not how I want women to be seen. And it took a long time and I kept trying and working and it just kind of paid off. And, you know, the first thing I did was Anna Karenina and I didn't speak and that was fine. And I was happy to do that just to be on a set and learn and just to see how it was working. You know, I wanted to climb the ladder. I didn't want to get anything easily. You know, I wanted the challenge. And I hope that I've proved that I can act. How much of a fan of modelling are you now?

I'd say fan is the wrong word. I do it still. But I'm involved in fashion now in a different way. You know, I'm now designing collections for people. I'm now creating the whole concept, like the creative. You know, I'm more on the creative side of it as well. I'm obviously still modeling things. But I now have more of a choice in what I do. And also, the companies that I work for, I want to be aligned with my core, like I have a foundation now, and I want them to also be behind the activism that I do. So it's more power in the sense of fashion. I would never be creatively fulfilled with modelling. I wouldn't have been able to do it this long

and not do anything else. You're 27 now, 43 million Instagram followers. That's wild. It's a lot. How much do you feel pressure that you're a role model for young people? It's a weird thing because sometimes when I'm really thinking too much,

I'm suddenly like, why do I put myself through so much pressure and so much, because I really put myself out there to be judged and to be criticized, which I am a lot and that's fine. But sometimes it really hits me and I'm like, oh, I can feel it sometimes,

the weight of it. But it's not the pressure to be a role model because I'm not trying to be a role model because I'm not trying to be a role model. I'm not trying to be perfect. I'm not trying to be an example. I'm trying to let people realize, and especially young girls, that it's okay to be who you are and stop trying to be like these people that they see in magazines

because that idea and the glamorization of celebrity is not real. Everyone is human. And I don't like it when people try and make it seem like their life is perfect. Because when people make their lives seem perfect, actually, they're far more troubled than we think they are. You're very open about your sexuality, about having depression in your early 20s, a breakdown when you were 15. What do you hope young people will learn from you in those kind of areas? I think what i mean what i'm learning from young people too is i think now young people are so much more open and i wish i had been and i think the most important thing that young people need to know is that it's okay to be

young and it's actually important to be young and don't try and grow up too fast you know being a child is some of my favorite memories and it ended pretty fastly just because of certain situations. Why? Why did it end fastly, as you put it? Fastly, quickly. Fastly. No, just because I had to grow up very fast and I think in a household which was maybe slightly more chaotic than others, you just have to... I kind of was in fight-or-flight mode since I was four years old,

so I didn't really feel like as much of a kid. But I am still a kid in so many ways. But it's more like for kids, like take your time and really aim high, like really aim high. There's so much people now like, you know, and it's fine to be, to do YouTube videos and to do all those things. But there's so many areas in the world where people are needed in other areas where people can you know strive for more and I think also talking about like communication again for me was the thing that really caused things like having issues with sexuality having issues with depression it all came down from lack of feeling and lack of communication and talking about things that affected me people see you as having had a very privileged upbringing was it well my family had

money so that's privilege isn't it that's what privilege is meant to mean in my mind privilege is love privilege is uh and i had love okay don't get me wrong i definitely had love but you know i think it's quick to say and people like you know she wouldn't be where she was unless this was her family and this is that and that. I never wanted to use my family or privilege or anything to get anywhere. That's not, I want to be known for being good at what I do and I want to be known for being a hard worker. I don't want it any other way. I never have.

I don't want an easy ticket. But that's fine. People are always quick to say things and that doesn't, because I think the work speaks for itself, hopefully. Your godmother is Joan Collins. She is indeed. What's the best advice she's given you? I think I remember telling her I wanted to be an actress when I was really young, and my parents, I'm pretty sure they said it was a bad idea,

but she always said, because I knew I wasn't going to do well at school because of my severe depression from 15 onwards. But annoyingly, I thought the only way to be an actor, obviously, was drama school, and I knew I wasn't going to be able to finish school, and I didn't know what I was going to do. But she said, if you really want it, and I think you do, because I know you, you're going to do it.

And that was just one of the words, like, the things that I really wanted, because I guess my parents were like, they were being rational. They're like, so many people don't make it as actors why do it you're a model you've got a good career as it is why change it you know why try for anything else but she was always like she just kind of gave me that confidence because I think she saw something in me that was similar to her I guess. How true is it that you are now married to Ashley Benson? Not

true. The rumours went everywhere. Yeah, I know. People like to make rumours. But yeah, no. But you are together. Yes, we are very much together. And I do have to ask you about this, slightly embarrassing.

Papers said you carried a sex bench into your home. What is it? So it was, so my friend was getting married. We were throwing like a bachelorette party for them. And so many people, so many of my friends said that it was, that the look staged. Because when I saw the photo, it does look staged. It's not.

We were just carrying it into my house. I mean, to be honest, it's one of the funniest photos in the world. And I kind of want it framed in my house because it's hysterical. But you can see us both laughing. And I think there's a moment where I said, God, imagine if someone's taking a photo of this what they would think and then that happened so so what actually is it I think it's called a obedience bench or something where you just tie someone to it's like it looks like a massage table almost but not and you haven't used it no I mean we used it on the night of the bachelor party, but it wasn't used for what I think it's meant to be used for.

If that makes sense. Makes perfect sense. I was talking to Carla Delavigne and the first series of Carnival Rose available to watch on Amazon Prime from today. In 1965, two sisters, Babs and Evelyn Atkins, bought the Cornish Loo Island and set up home there. After Evelyn died in 1997, Babs remained on the island alone until she died at the age of 86 in 2004. Then the island was handed over to the Cornwall Wildlife Trust to look after. Claire Lewis and her partner John live there now. He's the warden and she works with him. Most of the time they're the only people on the island

after the tourists leave. Well, Hannah Stacey from BBC Radio Cornwall took the boat over to the island to visit Claire and do a bit of seal watching. Hello. Hello, welcome to New Island Lake. My name's Claire and there's a lovely couple out there. That's John.

We both live here on the island, and we work for Cornwall Wildlife Trust. And we've been here since about 2004, and that was the year, if you know the story, back in 2004 was the year when Cornwall Wildlife Trust were given the island by the Atkins sisters. The Atkins sisters being two sisters from Surrey who bought the island in the 60s,

didn't marry, didn't have any children, had to think very carefully about the future of the island, so they gave it to Cornwall Wildlife Trust. There'll be lots of butterflies coming out now because it was a bit wet and horrible this morning and now it's sunny. So they gave it to the Cornwall Wildlife Trust and asked us to manage as a nature reserve, and that's what we do. And part of that management is, of course, monitoring the wildlife,

recording the different types of birds as well as the ringing project, seals, butterflies, insects, plants, everything that's here we can see, and then helping to keep it open to the public, the island, but in a managed way. It's a very special place because we manage the access, and the only way that people can come across the island is on the authorised boat. And that way we can limit numbers and limit the impact of the people and hopefully by meeting everybody that comes across we can help them to understand

not just what we're trying to do here but wider environmental and wildlife issues. Did you hear it? The seals are out there and seals sometimes do this howling noise, especially if another seal gets too close to it. It's stopped now, but it might do it again in a minute. And as the tide drops in particular, when the seals haul out onto the rocks, that's when they do a bit more howling and hissing. This is a really narrow path down past the house. It feels like something off Gerald Durrell.

I think that's why it is special, is because it's not been developed. Sorry, excuse me. Did you go over Heligan in the end about the sheep? Ah, yeah, we did. And as we go on up along this path here, we're going to see Island House, which is the big one that the sisters used to live in

when they first came to the island. And then next to it, that that's Jetty Cottage and that's where John and I live but it used to be the one where the sisters ran their craft centre and visitor centre and tea shop from. So these are some of the old demijohns that the sisters used to make their wine in. When we found one bottle it still had something in it. It was labelled Marrow Moonshine or something, which I kept well clear of. And this is Jetty Cottage. So this is where John and I live.

I need to ask you to take your shoes off, I'm afraid. That's because we've got a nice clean carpet. You want luxury. Yeah, well, we used to do weddings on the island and we had to get a carpet across and we had a budget and we had to get it that day and this is the carpet that fitted the budget on that day and i would never have a cream carpet we've had to do quite a lot of work in here to make it a bit more habitable when we first came in here unfortunately it was quite run down and then we've rescued what we could and then people have given us things like the three-piece suite and the table some people come in and they say it feels like a bit like a school room the books yeah so some of the books

but used to belong to the sisters they had an enormous collection of books homemade wine and beer making because they really used to like making homemade wine. They had a go at everything. And in fact, talking about homemade wine, in one of the books that was written about the island by Mike Dunn, he's actually got hold of their elderflower champagne recipe. It never goes wrong. And it's really good quality elderflower champagne. When people come across on one of our trips, lots of people share stories about the sisters because there's so many people come back because they knew about the Atkins sisters and they just want to share their experience lots of people from Loo were taught by Babs the younger sister oh there's a picture of Miss Atkins oh at Loo County Secondary School yeah so um where's she to there there she

is next to their senior mistress there at the school she's quite glamorous isn't she yeah it's a lovely picture yeah loo county secondary school yeah we've got all their possessions basically i mean distant family were friends and family were invited to the island just after babs died to take anything that was special to them but of course there's just so many documents and photographs. And that's an aerial photograph of the island. But we've got photographs of the sisters when they were young, their brothers, their extended family.

Long term, what we'd like to do is have a heritage centre. Some of these gorgeous old photographs. There's even a telegram from someone which intrigues me. It's in a little brown envelope dated 1944 and it says that it's Petty Officer Atkins and it says keep your chin up dearest we will meet again soon fondest love Jerry. I don't know who Jerry is. Is Jerry a distant member of the family? Was he a sweetheart? I have no idea. I know he's not either of the brothers unless that was his nickname. It's a bit confusing because they have nicknames as well so you've got Evelyn and Rosalind that are real names but their nicknames are Babs

and Attie so I mean I don't know if that's a nickname for a brother. Who was Jerry? Fantastic so there's so much more to learn about the island. But as you say, the wildlife's been the priority. But if it wasn't for these two sisters, the island's history could be quite different. It would still be here, but look different, sound different. Yeah, they were approached by various people to buy the island. They were offered some large sums. I think one sum was something like 1.5 million. I think that was in the 90s for someone to turn it into a theme park.

And I think if the person who was offering that money had known the sisters, known anything about them, they wouldn't have even suggested that in the first place. They wanted to look after the island and keep it special. What you're looking for is on the surface, you're just looking for a little head of a seal popping up to investigate what's going on. It's lovely calm conditions today, so it's really easy to see when they surface.

It's the great blackback gulls and the herring gulls in the background there. These are all herring gulls with the grey backs. Yeah. And then if you look towards something called Little Island, which is a separate little rock or Trelawney Island as we sometimes call it, there are some birds with darker backs

across. And do you ever feel isolated or is it always always a gain to be here? The isolation is a positive thing. You're doing something good for the wildlife but also in the lucky position to be able to enjoy watching the wildlife as well and also we're always busy. There's always something to do and never feel isolated and lonely. Sometimes feel frustrated if we can't get mainland or the worst is being stuck on the mainland and not being able to get back here i think we're getting better at understanding the sea and understanding when we should get off and can't get off and get back so

our timing of getting on and off the island is a lot better now i think we've had enough practice now all the work and all the joy is here. Claire Lewis on Loo Island was talking to Hannah Stacey from BBC Radio Cornwall. Now do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour when you can hear me

talking to Ursula McFarlane who is the director of a documentary about Harvey Weinstein. I'll also be talking to Hope DeMoor, who was a victim of his alleged abuse. Lisa Jewell is celebrating 20 years as a best-selling author. She talks about her latest psychological thriller,

The Family Upstairs. And the vegan vlogger Rachel Ammer cooks the perfect Caribbean jackfruit fritters that's tomorrow, 4 o'clock in the afternoon join me then if you can bye bye I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.