Woman's Hour - Disabled children and exercise, Women escaping domestic abuse, and 'rent farming', Whistler's Woman in White

Episode Date: February 21, 2022

Today Woman's Hour has an exclusive investigation into the women who have survived domestic violence but are being exploited a second time by ‘rent farming’. These women, trapped in what is known as 'exempt accommodation' after fleeing abuse, say they often come out more traumatised than when they moved in. We reveal the legal loopholes which allow landlords to receive higher - enhanced - housing benefit, which they're meant to spend on wrap around support to get tenants' lives back on track. But many don’t and are accused of financially ‘gaming the system’.Later this week the Royal Academy is opening an exhibition called Whistler’s Woman in White: Joanna Hiffernan. Very little is known about Joanna, she was an Irish model who became Whistler’s confidante and muse for at least two decades. But Professor Margaret MacDonald from Glasgow University, who is the curator of the exhibition, has been trawling through the archives for decades, to find out all she can about her; shining a light on Joanna's partnership with Whistler and the iconic paintings she inspired.Last week the UK's Chief Medical Officers published their first ever guidelines on physical activity for disabled children and young people. They suggest 20 minutes of exercise per day and balance activities 3 times a week. An infographic of the advice was created with the help of disabled children and their families. We speak to two mums, Tina and Carly, about the importance of the advice and how their sons were involved in the making of the infographic. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Nicole Jacobs Interviewed Guest: Professor Margaret MacDonald

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. We find ourselves at a Monday again and with today's news that the Prime Minister is due to set out his plans to scrap all remaining Covid legal restrictions in England, including that requirement to isolate, you may feel like crying, tears of joy or worry. But crying and our relationship with it is a complex one, especially as women. And the classicist Mary Beard has been exploring whether you can cry on demand with the actor Emma Thompson. And perhaps it's the first class that the university professor

has failed. You will hear our conversation shortly, but it got me thinking about your relationship, our relationship with crying. Are you a crier? Do those tears just brim at the slightest thing? Perhaps a bit of music, perhaps just something quite difficult or something, you know, that you didn't expect at all. Are you a crier? Have you been in situations where you desperately want to stop them just tipping over down your face to not look like you are, I don't know, feeling a certain way when you're trying to hide it? Do tell me those situations. Or are you someone who really has a sort of difficult relationship? Maybe you need to release more with it. You're going to hear what it took for Emma Thompson to be able to cry on demand and Mary Beard not to be able to.

But what about you? Interestingly, Mary says she takes men's tears more seriously because we are stereotyped, I suppose, to think that men still, a lot of the time, are not the ones that get to cry in society. 84844, that's the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour. I do recall in our conversation, which you'll hear shortly, with Mary Beard, I think it was the notebook that I was watching on a train back to my hometown of Manchester a few years back. I hadn't ever seen

it before. I wish someone had warned me. The state of me was something awful. And if we'd added a mask into that with the steamed up glasses, I mean, how I would have looked. I could not stop sobbing. So maybe that says a lot more about me than you needed to know. But what about you? What is it that perhaps sets you off? Or how do you control yourself? I also recall tears nearly coming over in a very early work meeting when I wasn't happy about something. It hasn't happened since. I vowed it wouldn't, but make of that what you will.

Also on today's programme, two women fighting on behalf of their disabled sons on how they hope to have changed exercise lessons for the better and the approach to exercise. And the woman in white, who was Joanna Hiffenant, beyond the painter James Whistler's muse? Are we able to find out? More details to come on that.

But first, an exclusive investigation into a phenomenon that's called rent farming and is seeing women caught in the crossfire. There are claims that a rising number of unscrupulous rogue landlords are gaming the system and making money out of vulnerable women who fled domestic violence and others who are also in crisis. It's believed that tens of millions of taxpayers' money is being wrongfully claimed as some landlords fail to provide services to women who desperately need help. Today, in a special report that's taken a year to compile, we reveal how these women are being exploited a second time around in what's officially called exempt accommodation, which we'll explain shortly. But what I wanted to explain was that it's

extremely rare to be able to hear from one of these women who's found themselves trapped in such schemes, of course grateful for a roof over their heads, but without the key support system that the landlord is being paid by the government via the council to provide. Listen to a bit of what happened to this woman, Charlotte. In one weekend, I was both sexually assaulted and I was stolen from. It's only now I look back and I think

I wasn't capable of declining that accommodation, of advocating that it wasn't appropriate for me to be in a mixed sex environment with no staff. I wasn't able to advocate what happened to me that one weekend. And that's just one weekend. It was beyond abhorrent. And what I would say needs to change is that what looks good on paper is not being translated into real life. How can a woman whose life has got to the point where she needs to be in exempt accommodation, you know, it's not gone great. For whatever reason,

how can I be expected to live with a population of people who are allowed to be 20% sex offenders, male sex offenders, mixed at all? It's noisy. It is chaotic. People fight. You don't know if they're shouting to be heard or shouting because they're

arguing. And if you've come from an environment where everything makes you jump, you know, you're a wreck. I've often said, if I wasn't a wreck before I went in, I absolutely was when I came out. I've recovered in spite of going in there. Charlotte there, who we'll hear more from in a moment. But today we can reveal that more than 40 leading organisations have sent a letter shared exclusively with Woman's Hour to two secretaries of state warning them that this type of housing has become a gold rush for some rogue landlords who use legal loopholes to exploit and profiteer. I'll also be talking to the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales who's with me in the studio. But first, let's speak now to our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, who's put this story together.

Carolyn, I think we need to start with what exactly exempt accommodation is. Yeah, well, exempt accommodation is called that because landlords are exempt from the normal housing benefit rules and they can get much more money, perhaps double or even triple the amount of rent per room for each person living in, say, their flat, their hostel or a house of multiple occupation. Now, the reason why they're able to claim this higher or enhanced housing benefit for the people who are living there is because they're meant to spend that extra money on wraparound care and support to get someone out of crisis and back on track. Now, the homelessness charity Crisis has found that more than 150,000 households around the UK are living in this exempt accommodation.

There are often people recovering from drug or alcohol addiction, there could be care leavers, there could be people just coming out of prison or asylum seekers and as our investigation reveals thousands of women who are escaping domestic abuse. Now, I should say that exempt accommodation, when it works well, can be fantastic and it can be life-changing. But what we're talking about here is a rise and a spread of exempt accommodation set up purely to make money. Now, providers get that extra housing benefit, but they don't provide good professional wraparound care or support, which for people who survived domestic abuse is, of course, crucial. And at the moment, the problem is there's very little that councils can do if a provider decides to actually set up on their patch. And thank you for explaining that because you've also got sight of this letter now shared exclusively with Women's Air by a group of leading organisations and the social justice

charity Commonwealth Housing to say what? Well it says exempt accommodation is in crisis so Commonwealth Housing and more than 40 other organisations including the Local Government Association, Women's Aid and the Homelessness Charity Crisis. They've written to two secretaries of state, not one, Michael Gove at the Department of Levelling Up Housing and Communities and Therese Coffey at the Department for Work and Pensions. They're warning them that regulation is poor, that unscrupulous landlords are financially gaming the system

and they're using loopholes to claim this enhanced housing benefit. And in fact, they say it's fallen victim to exploitation, to corruption and to blatant profiteering. Now, Commonwealth Housing is leading a campaign for reform. It wants a top to bottom review. And its chief exec, Ashley Hawsey, has told Woman's Hour that profit is being put above people, people like Charlotte, who we just heard from. Now, in order to see what this is all like on the ground I've been to the northeast of England where there is a lot of exempt accommodation. I met a woman called Marnie Burden, she has more than two decades experience in the housing and the homelessness sector and she works for a charity called Expert Link. I thought I would just show you some of these types of accommodation in the North East.

I mean, the one that was stood outside at the moment, they do claim exempt accommodation and originally it was supposed to be for women fleeing domestic abuse. That was how it was described to the local authority. Then it wasn't. It was mixed, so it had men and women. There was lots of issues around safeguarding as well and women being sexually exploited. And now it's currently all men. But the same organisation has opened up one particularly for females. So I'll take you around and show you that one as well.

But there's just quite a lot of them in the North East. I know it is the same across the country. And so when an organisation decides they're going to open a refuge, they're going to support women who've survived domestic violence and domestic abuse, surely that's a great idea. That's what is needed because there is a shortage of refuge spaces. Yeah, it is. But these exempt accommodations don't provide support.

So a person will get one hour of support a week. And I mean, we've seen examples or heard examples where, you know, they'll say the CCTV is part of the support that they get. But these are only manned Monday to Friday, nine to five. You know, like if a woman is in crisis, you know, where does she need? She needs staff on site to provide, you know, really good support. But there are also exempt accommodation providers who do provide full refuge support. And to get rid of all of them surely would be overreacting. I'm not saying that they're all bad, you know, because there are some good examples.

But yeah, I just think there needs to be more legislation around it just to stop unscrupulous landlords just coming into an area and making money out of vulnerable people. And how much money are they making? Well it depends on an area because the exempt accommodation rate is different you know so each local authority or a housing benefit department would decide how much people get but they could get anything from you know like 150 pounds to you know 300 pounds a week per person. How does that compare with normal housing benefit? Well, some areas, say, for example, I mean, like one that I know, if they're over 35, they'd get, like, £90 a week. And then if an organisation was claiming the exempt housing benefit,

that would be getting on for double? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, in the car now, where are we off to? I'm going to take you to the other side of the city where there's an accommodation that has just been developed and it's supposed to be for women. Women fleeing domestic abuse? Women fleeing domestic abuse, yes.

OK, are we turning left? So, as you can see, I mean, it is a lovely building, but it's the support that these women will be given. So although this one's in a nicer area, it's still what support will they be getting from this organisation? A lot of these providers would say, well, they're providing a service that's really, really needed. Well, I don't agree with that because we've seen so many examples

of people who've been evicted from these type of and the horror stories that they tell they're not safeguarding these people they're not giving them support they're not giving them wraparound support you know they don't have to adhere to any rules or regulations you know when when you're commissioning a service you know you're looking at the support and the support's really important and they're monitored on that as well you know so commissioners would check up on those accommodations they'd go and visit them they talk to the people they talk to the staff you know so you get an idea what accommodation is like but these aren't and I do think the motivation behind it is it's money you know it's you've got investment companies you know that are buying up these properties you know and it's just to get that

higher level of rent you know and a lot of women would go into this type of accommodation thinking that they're going to get the support that they need and finally somebody can help them and then they'll get in there and then realise that they're being let down again marine burden there from expert link well carolyn what are the rules that they should be following well Well, two key things, really. The provider must be not for profit and it must provide, and I quote, more than minimal care, support or supervision. But there's no way of checking up on this. So the rogue landlords keep on milking that cash cow. And one recent estimate is that the exempt accommodation sector

has received £1 billion in housing benefit payments from the DWP via councils and more than £800 million in the last financial year alone. Much will be well spent, but some isn't. So let's hear more from Charlotte. It's certainly been really difficult finding women willing to talk about this whole area. Some are too traumatised and speaking again would re-traumatise them. One woman I was speaking to, I was hoping to speak to actually, she'd left the accommodation,

she'd gone back to her perpetrator, we imagine, because the conditions were so tricky that she was living in. Others fear it could adversely affect any support they do get or the accommodation that they're in. But Charlotte has waived her right to anonymity because she wanted to talk to Woman's Air about a system that she is so worried about.

She told me it's meant to offer support to people like her who've survived various experiences, including domestic abuse, but she says it ends up exploiting them a second time. I went to exempt accommodation after my life just spiralled out of control you know it had been running at walls for years with you know mental health drinking bulimia my relationships with other people would just you know I was on a collision course with them all the time I could get a job but I couldn't keep a job I did not know what was wrong with me and neither did anyone else frankly I wasn't very good at doing life so our tendency was I needed someone and I was always quite attracted to men that would take control of the situation and that I could feel

like I could rely on choosing people on purpose that will let me drink the way I need to drink to feel better will give me loads of attention so I don't have to sit with myself you know that jealous and possessive actually really. Really dysfunctional relationships. And being hospitalised was a normal thing. You'd be hospitalised by your boyfriend and you'd get back together. That's not something that I would accept now. But at the time, I wasn't very well.

Even when you leave a relationship that was like that, you just very quickly end up in another because your expectations and your boundaries are so wide that it's happened before. And it's only now that I see how unacceptable some things were. I had nowhere to go. And I spent some time sofa surfing, living with people that had really been quite profoundly abusive. You know, I was stalked. I was rang 30 odd times a night. I was asked to get into a car and told I wouldn't be going home really quite horrible things but because it happens over time slowly slowly well it's not as bad as the time when somebody put you in a neck brace and it's

only when you look back and go that was really very bad. And I became homeless. Do you think people know what exempt accommodation is? No, I didn't know what it was either, even after I'd been in it. I was hearing conversations about exempt accommodation. I thought all those kind of issues sound like what I dealt with when I was in supported accommodation, which is what I thought I'd been in. And I joked to myself that it was called supported accommodation because it was very unsupported. So when I realised we were kind of talking about the same thing, I thought, this has all happened to me. I've got something to say. What did they promise would be offered to you to support you? And what did it turn out to be

in reality? They just said to me that I would be given somewhere of my own to sleep, so not somebody else's sofa. And I was playing with a man. I was in one bedroom, a bedroom with a locked door, and I was told that that would be sufficient. But it was dangerous. Someone had put a sofa up at the back of the doors in the living room because it was a known drug house. People had tried to burst in the back door, so there was a sofa. And I honestly thought I would rather be on any of my ex-boyfriend's sofas because I'm not safe here either. I did end up leaving after the assault. I went to stay with an ex-boyfriend. Why would I not? Because it's better the devil you know. And I said, I'm not coming back unless I can be where there's some staff.

Except accommodation, I went to, I'm not coming back unless I can be where there's some staff. Except accommodation I went to first was not staffed. It was part of a conglomerate of properties that was owned by a provider that on paper it was ticking boxes. So I never met a proper manager. I only ever met people that were on really, really low wages. And often they probably did go above and beyond what they were expected to do, but they just weren't required to do very much. You know, supporters, I will be in the office and you will present for a breathalyser and I will document it.

But that's not support, that's administration. You know, what is support? Is it having a chat with me for 10 minutes? The rule says more than minimal support. That's the guidance. And I think that's too subjective. I would say that getting two toilet roll a week and a washing tablet is not enough. What I need is support.

And I don't believe that two toilet roll and a washing tablet cost £230 a week. The fact you can put a wash on is the least of your worries you know what has happened to make you get here this is not a hotel one example for me which really stood out was there was a member of staff there so on paper it looks like there was support on site however this gentleman wasn't used to dealing with issues that were were living in the house you know and that's our home there was a chap and he stabbed himself and it came down to the members of the house so people that are either in active addiction people that are trying to be sober people that have come from abusive lives sex workers people that have had some real traumatic experiences are then the ones that have to deal

with this chap and at one point I just turned and I faced the wall because it was it was almost like information overload my story is one of hundreds and thousands and what I mostly want to convey is that the details of mine are kind of irrelevant the point is that massive amounts of money are being spent on something that is not existing at best and actually at worst is damaging. So I don't think the people that are releasing £230 a week into the pockets of anything would feel like they're getting any value for money for knowing that someone gets sexually assaulted for two toilet rolls and a washing tablet. Well, since she left the exempt accommodation a year ago, the good news is Charlotte says she's now living a wonderful life and she's using her experiences to pursue

a career which confronts policymakers and also works with women who are going through what she went through. Well, talking about policy, it's important to understand the government's position on this. And I know you're going to outline that because it has been talked about and is being talked about. But I should say at this point, we did invite ministers onto the programme, didn't we? We did. We asked whether Michael Gove would take part in this programme. But certainly the government is aware of concerns raised by people like Charlotte and the people who've written that letter headed off by Commonweal Housing. A recent Westminster Hall debate in the Houses of Parliament heard claims about exempt accommodation, claims of fake contracts and forged signatures,

of whole streets being bought up and turned into this type of housing. That sucks up family homes and it also prices out regular tenants and there were even allegations that there are links to organised crime. The debate was led by Birmingham Ladywood Labour MP Shabana Mahmood, who said in her constituency alone, 1,600 households live in exempt accommodation, and she says it's not unusual for vulnerable women to be housed alongside dangerous men in properties with no safeguarding. I have seen providers say that installing CCTV in communal areas counts as supervision or

having a manager who might visit the property once in a blue moon counts as adequate supervision of vulnerable people. Certainly that sort of so-called supervision would pass the more than minimal test but the idea that this is what was meant by the regulations that determine access to larger pots of housing benefit is utterly outrageous in my view. So cowboy operators know that they can access more money per tenant. They don't have to spend very much or indeed anything at all to demonstrate that they're providing care, support or supervision. So what is the upshot?

Lots of cash available if you know how to game the system. And fellow Birmingham MP Jess Phillips, who's the shadow minister for domestic violence and safeguarding, claimed that one of her constituents, a 19-year-old woman who'd been raped, is currently living alongside convicted rapists in her exempt accommodation while she waits for her case to go to court. And Jess Phillips says some women have been killed in this type of housing. We have had two women in the last three

years murdered in exempt supported accommodation. They're key workers not noticing that one of them was murdered and thought when she went to visit the property the person she said oh she's absolutely fine to the the woman who'd been murdered's mother and it was the person who had murdered her she'd seen. That's the level of support that vulnerable women are getting in this accommodation. It is dangerous and it must stop. Jess Phillips. Well, Birmingham is one of five cities where the government has been funding pilot schemes to try to work out how to get rid of these rogue landlords. The number of people living in exempt accommodation in Birmingham has doubled to 22,000 in just the last three years. But Birmingham is being seen by many as leading the way in how to end this crisis.

And during the pilot, they've clawed back more than three and a half million pounds that have been wrongly paid to landlords and tenants in exempt accommodation. Now, the other cities taking part in the pilot schemes are Blackpool, Hull, Blackburn and Bristol. And the results of the pilots are expected fairly soon. Now, the final thing to say, Emma Emma is that the Select Committee for levelling up has announced it's going to investigate this whole controversial area of exempt accommodation including survivors of domestic abuse who as Charlotte put it eventually recover not because of it but in spite of it. Carolyn thank you very much for that and the levelling up committee has received written

evidence from organisations and will publish it in due course. Then it will hear from witnesses in person. But some organisations have already gone public and published their submissions outlining what they want to see change. And as I said, we did invite the ministers onto the programme, Michael Gove, they're named by Carolyn. We did not get a response to join us this morning, a positive response to join us this morning. But did get this statement which said from the development department of leveling up housing and community spokesperson who said we are providing councils with 125 million pounds this year to deliver specialist support in safe accommodation for domestic abuse victims they go on to say it is completely unacceptable for anyone to abuse the exempt

accommodation system which is why we've invested over £5 million to support some of the worst affected areas. We will continue to support councils to drive out rogue landlords. Well, listening to all of this is the Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales, Nicole Jacobs, who's with me in the studio. Good morning, Nicole. I should make clear at this point, you're not speaking on behalf of the government, but in your role, your independent role as the the commissioner what do you make of what you've just heard well I mean it's beyond troubling if I think Charlotte says it all doesn't she when in thinking

about victims of domestic abuse or who by definition if they're seeking this type of accommodation or it are at very high risk. We know most homicides happen after the point of separation, most serious harm happens. This is the time when victims need care and support and really quality services. And so it really defies all logic that we could, you know, have this going on and know about it and not be doing something much more proactively. I've worked in... Did you know about it, if you don't mind me asking? Because of course, a lot of people listening to this will have no idea that this is part of what can happen. It is something that I've been aware of, and I've been speaking to

government about. And it is true that these pilots have been happening and there's learning from the pilots. But we're now at a point where, you know, government needs to make a decision. What proactively will they do? It's very clear what the problems are. It does boil down to a lack of regulation. It boils down to a lack of attention to what care and support and how that is defined. And also, it's a disconnect between kind of what's laid out at the national level and then what is being done to support local areas to really get that implementation right. So people will be asking, well, why wouldn't local authorities be doing more? But to some degree, we've learned in these pilots,

we don't know, again, all of what's been learned. That's a sense of urgency that we need to hear from government. But there are things that if funded, local areas can look at what accommodation is being offered in their area and figure out how to really get the value for money, the quality and the enforcement right. But ultimately, I'm afraid it will come down to looking at the regulations and tightening those up. So we really need to see that happening now. It's a very urgent problem. The exempt accommodation, if it can't be regulated,

should it be removed? Well, I think it can be regulated. I suppose some would say it obviously can't be, or it's seemingly there's something broken here and people perhaps lack faith it will be fixed. And I, well, one thing I want to clarify from this statement from government is the 125 million, which is obviously very welcome. It was part of the Domestic Abuse Act, which created a statutory duty for accommodation-based services for domestic abuse. We often, in shorthand, refer to that as refuge. That is commissioned services. Those are

services that have oversight. So those you could put to one side. They're working on high standards at the local level. Commissioners have a lot of flexibility and ability to make sure that those types of services are running really well. And I've worked in those services myself. I can tell you it's horrific to reflect on what Charlotte has been through and what she could have had in some of those services. It's just such a tragedy. But what we're talking about is beyond, if you think of that parameter, the exempt accommodation. Some of those, as your reporter points out, some of those are very good services. They might have been services that have grown up over many years, local refuges with incredible volunteers, incredible support. They just happen to not be commissioned at the local authority level, if that makes sense.

So then they would be considered exempt accommodation. So within some of these rogue landlords and these cowboy landlords, there are good ones. So it's not as easy as saying, well, let's just get rid of all exempt accommodation. We have to see, you know, much more understanding of what good looks like, a definition of the care and support needs. And then we need to see government investing in and allowing local authorities to be able to enforce that because they don't invest in that now nearly as much as they should. And that's what we really need to see government taking decisions on. What do you think will focus minds on this?

Because, of course, as we pointed out as well, millions of pounds worth of taxpayers' money is being potentially wasted. We know is being wasted through this right now, through these rogue landlords. I mean, I think what simply focuses minds are the examples we've just heard, what Charlotte said, what some of the MPs have pointed out that they're picking up. I mean, the things that are going on within these taxpayer paid housing accommodation defies all logic and all kind of morals. But I do think what may focus minds for ministers will be the select committee, this type of reporting, making sure that we understand that they've been investing. And I

do know ministers care about this because I've talked to them about it. And they have invested in these pilots, but we now need decisions. We need to see a funding and a rollout from what's learned in the pilots, what's learned in some of these areas. And we need to see the tightening of the regulations. Nicole Jacobs, Domestic Abuse Commissioner for England and Wales. Thank you. Well, in terms of what you've been getting in touch with, you've also been responding to that report, of course, but I asked you before that about crying and where you are with it, your relationship to it, how you keep your emotions in check. We have a lot of messages here. It seems on a Monday morning, maybe you really want to vent and share them with us. And we're very grateful.

A message here that's anonymous. It says, I've just been on the phone to my sister for our daily call and cried because we haven't had any electricity since Friday. And I was feeling sorry for myself. Much better now. A good cry is a great release. Having coffee and toast to keep the morale up. So I wanted to start with that one, not least because I am aware so many of you have been affected by the storms. What's guaranteed to make me cry? Any musical, says Jessica. Another message saying, I am a crier. This is Jenny who's listening in South Wales. Good morning. And I hate it. I cry when I'm happy, sad, excited at a nice advert on the telly. I cry when I'm angry, which I hate. I think it looks like a weakness. It lessens the seriousness of what I'm trying to talk about. But I cannot stop myself. I've cried in so many work situations.

It can look like I'm just turning the tears on when in reality I cannot turn them off. It's definitely one of my worst traits. Jenny, have a listen to this. All of us. Let's tune into what the professor of classics, Mary Beard, has to say about this, because in a new season of her show Inside Culture, which is coming to BBC Two this Friday, she has been looking at the stereotypes of women, but also the culture of crying and how tears play a role both on screen and in real life. She's also been looking into how the stereotyping of women has impacted those going into positions of power. But in our conversation, I started by asking her about being taught to cry on demand by none other than the Oscar winning actor, Emma Thompson. We're doing a whole episode on crying and tears, the kind of culture of it. And we're looking at

movies in two different directions. One thing that I've always been absolutely puzzled about is how actors get on screen and produce tears. I've got, you know, I've tried to do that myself and I cannot do it. So I thought, first of all, it would be good idea to have a masterclass. And Emma Thompson tries to teach me to cry, you know, think that your friend, you know, you've known for 60 years years she's only got six months to live you know and I feel sad but you know tears don't appear so I'm afraid I totally failed the audition totally failed but somebody brought me a tear stick which I imagine is mental and if you rub this stuff under your eyes you can can produce buckets of water. So I'm afraid I did it in the kind of sneaky, cheaty way. But I simply cannot turn on the tears on demand.

So I'm never going to make it in sentimental movies, I'm afraid. Was it from Emma saying when she explained her method, did she say it is genuinely about believing in the emotion of something that then turns it on or has she got some other technique? I think so. And I think it's I mean, what she was trying to get across to me and I saw it intellectually, but I didn't ever manage to do it, was that somehow you've got to open up that space between wherever the emotions sit, you know, in your stomach or wherever, and your eyes. There's a connector there. And I think the idea when you're making yourself cry, the idea is that you manage to open up that connector.

But my connector never opened up. It's interesting, though, with tears, some people, and specifically to talk about women for a moment, we are on Women's Hour, can always cry. You know, are moved to cry. Everything makes them in that position. And others never feel like it or actually do a lot to stop themselves from crying because they don't want to be perceived as weak

or the stereotypes of women. That's right. And the irony is, in a way, is that I'm a great crier in the movies. You know, you put me in a dark cinema, you know, in a really comfy chair, and you put some sentimental rubbish on the screen, all big, and I kind of immersed in it. And that really does open my connectors. Then, you know, I know you know I emerge you know if I wore eye makeup I would emerge with none because uh you know I I can weep buckets we Emma and I sat and we we watched some little bits of movies just to sort of see see how they worked for us

and you know we can both do it with the end of The Sound of Music. Now, you know, nobody is going to say The Sound of Music is a great artistic, I think, perhaps, no, maybe I'm being unfair, but it's, you know, it's not like watching Shakespeare. And yet, when the von Trapp family get up the mountain after nearly getting caught in the, in the monastral and nunnery uh you know i can't stop myself are you a crier in day-to-day life away from the movies i recognize in this situation you were looking at culture and what prompts tears but but do you find yourself in that place regularly or is it just is it just a good storyline sometimes i mean i think it i think it took into it was very helpful because it did help me see why I cried.

When I cry, really, it is kind of like something has so pummeled me emotionally or kind of, as it were, quasi physically that all the barriers between myself and crying are broken down um it you know it doesn't happen in an art gallery you know some people go into art galleries you know and they blob like anything um I don't think I've ever cried in front of a painting but I cry with novels and I cry cheap sentimental movies and to some extent I, I think it's a good thing to do. I mean, you know, you get in there, you let it all hang out. You really do have a good cry and something is released. And, you know, in that way, there is a difference, I think, between women and men, because I suspect, you know,

it's fine to come out of a movie, if you're a a woman and be seen to be kind of brushing your eyelids a bit and looking a bit of a state. And it's not so fine if you're a bloke. But what about, I suppose, also away from the movies in your day-to-day life? Do you think that's changed? Because I know you've also looked elsewhere, in fact, in the first episode of this series, about stereotypes of women and what's underpinned them.

Do you think just keeping with the crying for a moment, but what you've looked at and learned about stereotypes, do you think we've changed our view of women who cry and perhaps men who cry? I think we've changed our view of men who cry a bit. You know, I was brought up with, and you can still hear this, can't you? Big boys don't cry. And I think it's very interesting to go to a school playground and I think you can still sometimes see little girls being allowed or even encouraged to cry and little boys being not encouraged. And I think that, yeah, I've cried in what you know, what you remember, of course, you remember the

embarrassing places that you cried, you know, I remember crying at a university faculty meeting, you know, partly because I was, you know, I thought, I can't stand this, I can't stand what they're asking me to do, and instead of actually saying, sorry guys, know it was all men i think i can't do that i just cried uh and in some ways it worked brilliantly because the i mean if you were to say well you know i didn't do it uh in order to do in order to make it work i did it because i couldn't stop um so so you didn't have to then do the thing that you were feeling so strongly about in the end, because the tears helped explain that. Well, I mean, I probably had to do a modified version of it, but a modified version. But I remember it kind of vividly, because after a bit,

I thought, I've got to go out. You know, you can't just sit there and, you know, having 20 men look at you crying, you know, and you're trying to sort of be authoritative so I went out um and then there was a kind of complete silence I could almost hear some hushed tones and I imagine that what the men were saying is what the hell do we do now and eventually one guy came out and said you're right and I went back into the meeting and you know I thought well you could say those are instrumental tears. And in a way they were, and women are often accused of instrumentality with their tears. Oh, look, she's crying, you know, but they can be sort of instrumental without you faking it. Instructing it, as it were.

You know, and as I feel about myself, I can't, you know, no more can I do it to Emma's instruction as I can, you know, to somebody who's, you know, hurting me. I mean, it either happens or it doesn't. You know, maybe I'm unusual. I don't know. Have you ever seen a man in the faculty in your working life have a moment like that? I've never seen a man in my working life have a moment like that.

And I suppose, mind you, I don't think they see many women doing it either in work. No, no, I'm not saying lots of women do either necessarily, but just having had that moment yourself. I think it's, I suppose, it does seem to me that, you know, in terms of stereotyping, that a man's tears, I still think, you know, and therefore I must be immersing myself in the stereotypes. If I see a man crying, I treat it more more seriously isn't that awful than a woman crying that's interesting you know I'd try not to and if I thought about it I certainly wouldn't want to do that but there is something about seeing a guy cry that you think you, you don't, people, we are culturally, as you say,

we're culturally taught to suspect that a woman might be faking tears. We don't think that a bloke's faking tears. That's not on the explanatory register. No, it's not, according to Dame Mary Beard. Her fifth season of Inside Culture will start on BBC Two this Friday night, if you want to tune in for that. But Cassie's emailed to say, my husband is the crier in our relationship. I wish I could access tears more easily. I've sat dry eyed through funerals and films like Shinder's List. It's made me appear heartless. I feel sad,

but I just struggle to externalise those feelings. And there's another message here saying that they think they've got a job because they were crying so much in an interview. It convinced those interviewing her that she was the one for it. So it's a range of emotions here and a range of experiences. Jane says, I don't think I was a crier, but 20 years ago, I do think my tears secured me a job. During the interview, the panel asked why they should employ me. I was so impassioned. Tears welled up. I blubbed my way until the end, finished the interview by saying, I just wanted to work there

and I left feeling annoyed with myself. Next day the phone call came and I spent many happy years never crying at work at the school. And this is here you go from an actor. Give this a go for crying. Breathe in rapidly twice and then breathe

out quickly okay i'm not going to do this three times in quick succession i've got to present a radio program but hear the instructions breathe in rapidly twice then breathe out quickly do that three times in quick succession next breathe out rapidly twice then in quickly and do that three times in quick succession are you doing this this? Do you notice the difference? You may have to do it again and really notice how both of these make you feel in your body. The first is what our body does when we cry. The second is what our body does when we laugh. See how you get on with that.

I hope I've explained that well enough. But thank you for that message with some tips there. And I should also say plenty of our male listeners getting in touch to say you have no issues with crying at all. But the UK's chief medical officers have just published their first ever guidelines on physical activity for disabled children and young people. They suggest 20 minutes of exercise per day plus strength and balance activities such as yoga or modified sports such as football three times a week. An infographic of the advice was created with the help of over 250 disabled children and their families. Some of the people who took part in that are with me now. Tina is mum to 10-year-old Lewis, who has cerebral palsy, and Carly is mum to 14-year-old Oliver, who was born with congenital limb difference, so that means he was born in this instance without a leg.

A warm welcome to you both. Tina, what do these guidelines mean to you? Well, first of all, it was important, I think, that they included disability, children and young people to actually give their message across because no academic really understands how a disabled child feels when taking part in sport. Now, Lewis is very, very active in sport and he really enjoys it. But there are some sports he could or can't participate in because he can't jump, he can't ride a bike. He does have difficulties. But there are sports he has found and he really enjoys. So he was able to give a message across to the professor

Brett Smith to tell him that it was good to meet new people it was good to have a sense of achievement when taking part it was good for his motor skills and it was good for his balancing coordination because Lewis can fall over very easily but what was quite interesting that Lewis made the point of was that there's a sport for everybody but it's finding that sport and also he's been on a journey himself over the last five years and it's not been easy for him to when he started off but he's got physically stronger by participating in sport and now able to do more sport as a result. And doing 20 minutes a day is really a good starting point. Now, some people won't be able to do 20 minutes a day straight away, but they can build up slowly.

They can find a sport that they can do and they can meet people. And this was the main message that I think come across for Lewis in that he does have difficulties, but it's taking part in sport gives him lots of other benefits. And by having these guidelines that not only are they hopefully helpful, it's actually pointing towards that as something that should be potentially a goal. Let me bring in Carly at this point. Would these guidelines have helped when you when you first had Oliver? Oh, absolutely. I mean, when I first had Oliver, I mean, he was my fourth child. I had three very active children and, you know, suddenly presented with this baby who didn't have a leg. And I can't even

explain to you the emotions that I went through. But of course, all the things that went through my head is what activity is he going to take part in? Now, I think the thing is with this infographic is it was a really challenging infographic because as Tina had commented, then some of the things that her son can't do. Disability is such a wide sector and it had to appeal to everyone. And I think they did an amazing job as a starting point for all parents of disabled children and young people. And what are the top tips there or the advice that you think will matter to those who are affected? As you say, it's a wide group. Yeah, well, I think the thing is the infographic had to appeal to children and young people who have a disability, but it also had to appeal to the parents. And I think that something that this

infographic did is it brought in the word bite size. And it was something that when we were doing the focus groups, I was involved in two of the focus groups in my role in working for Limb Power as a children's family and family officer. And both of the groups talked about bite size. And I have to say, I think that probably goes back to the BBC bite size that they recognize from their computers. But they loved the bite size. They loved the fact that it was 20 minutes. And the message that the children wanted to get across is it didn't have to be in one go. It could be doing different things. And the other thing that I think was really, really strong is that

people tend to think of sport, but it's actually physical activity. So as you mentioned there, it could be yoga, it could be something else, but being active was so important. Yes. And also, Tina, I suppose, competition is part of sport or what we think of and how to design a world and certainly design lessons within schools where, you know, disabled children can be involved. Those who have all sorts of issues going on where they want to move, they want to have that exercise exercise but they don't want to not be picked or come last no i mean lewis is very involved in sport but at school there is a problem um he is included for example he will be included in swimming in sports day but he knows as soon as he starts

running in sports day he's probably going to come last but what there isn't and I hope the Department of Education now takes this up further and gives a message to schools how they include disabled children fairly in competition so that means giving them a 10 second start in a swimming race, letting them start ahead of the pack when it comes to running. Maybe include them in a cricket match, but don't let them run as far. But they can be included. But if schools want to win competitions, they will take able-bodied people. And I think they need to include disabled children fairly within competition in schools.

And really, hopefully that is the message. This is just the start. The poster that's been developed is just the start. Hopefully they will now take it further to get a message from disabled children and young people in schools to actually see how they feel when it comes to competition. Because that's where they may potentially get turned off. And I would recommend anyone if that happens, please pursue opportunities outside school for sport. There's lots of para opportunities. Football pathways are excellent, same as hockey, cricket, table tennis and swimming. And there are other sports out there as well.

I don't know all the sports, but they're the ones I'm doing with Lewis. You sound pretty busy with that, as well as trying to contribute in this way to these guidelines and to the infographic that you've described. Carly, just tell us a bit about Oliver and where he's up to with what he likes to do. Oliver does everything. Oliver has one leg and amazes me that he goes kickboxing. I still can't quite get my head around that one. But I think I work with children with limb difference and I am absolutely amazed by how many sports they can take part in. School, as Tina said, can be a challenge. Oliver's very, very lucky. He's in a

small school. They are absolutely amazing with him. And he really feels like he's part of the pack. He does have an activity limb, which I am the administrator of the fund from the government for that. So he does have access to that. All children with a limb difference do have access to the activity prosthetic fund. And that's really important for children to know because for children with a limb difference, that can make the difference for them joining in at school. But I would actually say to any school that has a child with any disability, please reach out to the relevant charity. They will have people to help you and to teach you how to include the child because it's very easy ways to be inclusive. Thank you so much,

Kylie. Thank you very much for talking to us about Oliver and your experiences. Tina, thank you to you and to Lewis for informing this discussion. All the best to both of them and to you with the rest of your work and I suppose campaigning on this. Your message is still coming in about your empathy levels, your ability to cry, what gets you going. This is very relevant for our next discussion because Kate's messaged in to say, do you count overwhelming tears of emotion as crying? Yes, I think we will. I cried when I saw the beautiful pre-Raphaelite paintings at the Manchester Art Gallery. I fully teared up at the Taj Mahal, couldn't control the tears when I was on a boat

and saw a flying fish. Maybe I'm just a big softie. I also say lots of men getting in touch say they cry much more as they get older. But speaking of art and overwhelming emotion, being a man's muse in the art world is a common role for women throughout history. But what of these women as individuals in their own right?

Do we know enough to paint a picture? This week, an exhibition called Whistler's Woman in White, Joanna Hiffonen, opens at the Royal Academy in London. Very little is known about Joanna. She was an Irish model who became the painter James Whistler's confidant and muse for at least two decades. But Professor Margaret MacDonald from Glasgow University, who is the curator of the exhibition, has been trawling the archives for decades. What do we know? Good morning about Joanna.

We know a lot more than when we started, sure enough. When I started, we didn't know when she was born and when she died, which was a slight drawback. And we had a lot of misinformation. Now we know she was born in Limerick in 1839 and to our amazement we found she died quite young in 1886 and she had met Whistler in 1860, that we knew, so she was like 21 when she met and he was a few years older and they had this passionate and rewarding relationship, a partnership in the end, and worked together on a lot of paintings, about certainly 10, possibly 20, some of his major works. As well as a number of little sketches, lovely little sketches, stunning drypoint etchings, prints. They were all, this would have taken hours and hours of work. And Whistler was not exactly a fast painter. So she might have posed from dawn till dusk and then some.

So when you say working together, and just to point out, he was born in America, but spent much of his life working in the United Kingdom. They met in London. Is that right? Yes, he was American, very much an expatriate by then. He studied art in Paris and then settled in London. This was a few years, a couple of years after he'd settled in London that he met Hiffenham. And when you say work together, is it mainly that she's posing or do we know if she actually contributed to any of the artwork? We don't know who decided what dress she wore. We don't know exactly who decided what pose she'd take. We do know she had to pose, therefore she could well have said, I'm not going to pose like that.

You know, I'm exhausted. She must have been quite strong because she posed, for instance, for the famous white girl itself standing. And that took several months in the middle of winter in Paris. So apart from that, she helped in the studio, organizing, making sure the paints were there and the easel was there. She helped contact dealers and collectors and socialised with fellow artists to exchange ideas. She was probably a painter herself. And therefore, judging by how Whistler worked with other artists and models he probably helped her a little to be a painter but we know very little about that

there are still large gaps in what we know we're putting together the story and hope we can find out more indeed to a certain extent it really is the pictures that tell us the story and little snippets people remembering that she was beautiful obviously gorgeous whistler thought she was absolutely real and they did have a relationship they certainly had a relationship when um within the first year of meeting each other and her posing for. They registered in census as being man and wife. Now, they never were married.

They never were married. But they lived together until his mother arrived. Oh, Whistler's mother, which we've heard of as a concept. She's the only model that outranks Whistler. Right. So the mother arrives and the relationship is no more, we think, at that point. No, the relationship is definitely going on.

Right. Whistler was painting more pictures of Joey Hiffen and at that time than at any other time. So he spent most of his time in the studio with Hiffen and sure they still had a relationship. In the second decade of their friendship and partnership, and it really was literally a partnership because he gave a power of attorney, she had a different relationship with him in that slightly startlingly, she actually took on looking after his illegitimate son by another woman. But she was still friendly with Whistler in helping him out.

For instance... But they weren't romantically linked at that point when she does this quite extraordinary thing. We haven't checked his bed. You know, we can't... No, no, no. Well, I don't know how far these archives go. It's up to you to tell us, I suppose.

Yes. They continue to have a friendship, a partnership in that way. She looks a bit after his house, that sort of thing. She liaised with people. For instance, Whistler sent her to make his piece with Dante Gabriel Rossetti one time when he'd fallen out with Rossetti. the little boy, Charlie Hansen, his illegitimate son, to look at the Peacock Room in London. But they certainly, by the 1880s, she was still looking after the son. But at that point, Whistler had another mistress model. And so she was definitely having a different sort of relationship with him. How important is it? I mean, we've just said this exhibition is called Whistler's Woman in White, referring to that painting that you briefly touched upon and the White series and after her travels to Paris with him.

But how important do you think it is to turn it on its head and know more about the woman in the shadows? Some of the pictures are very hard to understand anyway. So if you know more about her, you perhaps know more about the picture. But it sometimes is a very ambivalent thing. You're not quite sure what you're seeing in this picture. Say in The White Girl, Whistler called it the woman in white. People have been interpreting that in different ways ever since.

Some people thought it showed her as a woman on the morning after her wedding. Some people thought it showed her as a woman on the day of the morning after her wedding some people thought it showed her as innocent and some as very much the opposite and another picture that he painted called whopping he started painting her as a prostitute and it ends up i'm terribly sorry to end it on a bit of a cliffhanger but people have to go and see all time that we've got today thank you for your company. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive.

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