Woman's Hour - Divorce, Ruby Wax, the FIRE movement, Strings duo Balladeste

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

How common is it to experience ‘hate’ towards someone you once loved? We tend to think of 'hate' as one of the strongest emotions we can have, so what happens if you find yourself 'hating' your former partner, particularly if you have children with them. We discuss why some people experience this during or after the breakdown of their relationship, and how to move on from it. In the early 1990s Ruby Wax smashed out of the TV studio and rewrote the rule book on the celebrity chat show with 'When Ruby Wax Met…'. She joins Anita to look back at some of these encounters with stars such as Grace Jones, Carrie Fisher, Imelda Marcos, and one particularly memorable encounter with a future US President and his new girlfriend - a Mr Donald Trump. As part of our money series, we are looking at the FIRE Movement. The acronym, which stands for Financial Independence, Retire Early, is a method of extreme saving, in order to retire – or stop working – decades earlier. Recent studies suggest that over half of millennials do not see themselves as 'emotionally and behaviourally' connected to their job and company. Exhausted from high-pressure jobs and with a growing sense of burnout, some millennials are turning to the FIRE strategy in an attempt to become financially independent, sooner. Emma-Lou Montgomery is a personal finance and investment writer at Fidelity International, and Sarah Pennells is a Consumer Finance Specialist from the Royal London.Indian-American violinist Preetha Narayanan and British cellist Tara Franks met while studying at the Guildhall School of Music and went on to form a strings duo – Balladeste. Their style has been described as Contemporary Classical meets Folk in its broadest form - Indo-Baroque meets alt-folk minimalism. For their new album, Beyond Breath, they have taken fragments of melodic lines from a set of Indian devotional songs learnt in Preetha’s childhood as inspiration. They join Anita to discuss the cross-cultural melding of their musical ideas and styles.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Ruby Wax Interviewed Guest: Sara Davison Interviewed Guest: Fahima Mahomed Interviewed Guest: Sarah Pennells Interviewed Guest: Emma-Lou Montgomery Interviewed Guest: Preetha Narayanan Interviewed Guest: Tara Franks

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Now, have you ever loved, then hated? It's a powerful emotion, hate, particularly at the end of a marriage, a relationship that was once meaningful and loving. So we're talking about it today. Have you ever experienced hate for your ex? What has it driven you to do? How did you deal with it? Especially if there were children involved. I would love to hear your experiences.

And if you have any questions, then send them to me because I'll be speaking to two women who may be able to help you with your hatred. You can text me on 84844. You can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email through our website. Now, how do you like the sound of this? Financial independence, retire early. Sounds great, right? Well, for some millennials, it's a mantra, the life plan. They don't want to be working at the same job into their 60s. They want freedom to retire young and then to choose to do what they want. Bloomin' brilliant. Where do we sign up? I'll be telling you all about it shortly and most importantly, how to do it. Now, she was a firm fixture on our screens for over 20 years. And when she was on,

you couldn't miss her. Ruby Wax was one of my favourite people on TV growing up with a style of interviewing like no one else. She redefined celebrity interviews and she's back, looking back at some of those genre-busting programmes. How on earth did they convince Imelda Marcus, Grace Jones and Donald Trump to let the cameras in Alaska in a bit? And as it's Friday, a musical treat for you. How about a bit of Indo-Baroque meets alt-folk minimalism?

Stunning, isn't it? Well, the strings duo Balladest will be joining me shortly. But first, all this week on Woman's Hour, we've been reporting on what's been happening in Afghanistan, particularly to women and girls. Well, today, as I was heading into work, I caught a report very early on the Today programme, which really hit a nerve.

It was about a woman called Sadiqa Shirzai who does exactly the same job as I do. She presents a radio show in the city of Kunduz on a station run by women promoting women's rights. The radio station had been set up in defiance of the Taliban who even fired rockets at the building to try and close them down. But she bravely continued to fight for her right to be heard, even though she knew the Taliban felt she deserved to be killed.

So it made me think about how much we take for granted this morning and the amount of courage and strength Sadiqa had to keep going. And I really wanted to share it with you too. Here's reporter Mike Thompson. Radio Roshani in Afghanistan's sixth largest city of Kunduz was broadcast by women for women in what's very much a man's world. Its many discussion programmes promoting women's right to work, be educated and hold their own views didn't go down well with the Taliban. Well, the station has now closed and right now Sadiqa is in fear of her life and she's ruled out leaving the country because of the current chaos at the airport.

Plus, she doesn't have a visa so doesn't know how she would get out. Yesterday, we heard on Woman's Hour how a baby was handed over a barbed wire fence, its parents hopeful that it would get on a plane to a better life. It's reported today that British troops are being handed more babies by desperate parents. As for radio presenter Sadiqa, who just like me had a show talking about important women's issues. She's now had to leave her home of Kunduz and is in Kabul at the moment. And here's what she said. They have twice called at my house in Kunduz, looking for me and my husband, asking other members of my family where we are.

They have also been sending me threatening texts. Now they know that I'm in Kabul and are searching for me here and keep calling my phone. They say that when they find me, they will kill me. They will kill her. And all she did was present a radio show for women to empower everyone who listened to it and to change attitudes. And now she's in fear of her life. Well, it really did jolt me out of my half-sleepy state this morning and I had to share her story with you too and it reminded me just how important Women's Hour is and it stoked the fire in my belly this morning

and we'll continue to shout about the right for women around the world to have a voice and to be heard. And if you have a story to share, we'd love to hear from you too. 84844 or you can email us by and to be heard. And if you have a story to share, we'd love to hear from you too. 84844. Or you can email us by going to our website. Now, Ruby Wax redefined the documentary genre by throwing in her unique comedy style, rocking up to interview the biggest A-list celebs of the time

as a brash, loudmouth, cocky American. Either they went with it or sometimes they had no idea what had hit them regardless for us the viewers it made for great tv now after 25 years ruby is back on our screens this sunday watching some of those interviews for the very first time and talking us through the laughs mayhem and even the fear encounters with stars such as grace jones carrie fisher mel de marcus and one particularly memorable encounter with a future u.s president And even the fear. Encounters with stars such as Grace Jones, Carrie Fisher, Mel DeMarcus, and one particularly memorable encounter with a future US president

and his then-girlfriend, Mr Donald Trump and Melania. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Ruby Wax. Lovely to have you here. Now, I watched you with admiration and remember thinking how utterly fearless you were. But then I say fear because the first person we watch you sort of watch and dissect is Donald Trump and you were in fear of him yeah I mean luckily all the interviews weren't that way they were but he is a fearful character um and there's an extreme amount of

narcissism and I think his attitude well to the human race let alone women who aren't sexual objects. It's peculiar. So he terrified me, and he told me the first thing on his private jet. We were up in the air, and he said he wanted to be president in the United States, so I started laughing. I thought he was kidding, and he said, land the plane, I want her off. So he, yeah, landed the plane. We've got a clip. Let's have a listen.

How delightful. This is one of the most excruciating moments of my career. Yeah. We've got a clip. Let's have a listen. How delightful. This is one of the most excruciating moments of my career. It did not feel good. Not Donald's fault, but I sensed it might only get worse. But you never smiled once and you probably have a really good smile. Well, that's OK. OK. Just an average smile. Let's go. OK, you're not going to. All right. You know, it's like you have a plane. You have like this great life that anybody would want to have. Why would you want to run for president?

Because a president would want this gig. Well, it really is. We could save a lot of money with Air Force One. We wouldn't need Air Force One. Because you'd use this plane. Think of how the taxpayers would benefit by that. It's another acquisition. I mean, it is an acquisition of power.

What happened was, because he scared me, I wasn't as funny as I could be. It was less and less funny and more and more aggressive. But it was too daunting with him. He didn't get it. And he looked at me the way my dad always looked at me, like, oh, God, she's a kook, rolling his eyes. She's not funny. She's not talented. She's an idiot. And I saw that in She's not talented. She's an idiot.

And I saw that in front of me. So I became an idiot. Okay, we have to take off. Okay. Oh, do you have to go in the front? Can I come too? I'm going to just go upstairs. Relax for a second.

Oh, please. I want to sit in the cockpit too. Better take up the plane. Excuse me. That's enough. I have a headache. Do you hate me? No, I think you're fine, but it's enough. What was it do you hate me no i think you're fine but it's enough

what was it like watching that back ruby no that was a wince making because um i i got nervous and you can hear it in my voice and he um when an animal sees another weaker animal uh going down like road you know um when you're driving and you see a rodent and you run it over. That was a sensation. He was the cat that played with the mouse and I could have handled it better. But that was the only one like that, except for Bill Cosby, who we know ended up where he ended up and he's out. But Carrie Fisher and Bette Midler and Goldie Hawn and Tom Hanks, it was a love affair. And that's why when I watched it, I thought this person who's quite cute,

I just realized, was having the time of her life and forming relationships that would last a very long time, especially in Carrie's situation. We stayed friends for 30 years. I can't wait to talk to you about the women, especially the Carrie Fisher, because you're right, watching that and re-watching it as well, it was a love affair and it was magical, magical to watch it. But honestly, I had to tell you that I think, you know,

don't be too hard on yourself with the Donald Trump interview because it was pretty much as I'd expected him to be, I suppose because we have the benefit of hindsight. We know who this character turned out to be so i was slightly surprised by your the the surprise that you had with his reaction to you it's just how i would thought he would have been with you well if you're if you know that's coming then you uh you know you ground your feet i mean that's my life when i jumped and reinvented myself my whole point of my raise on debt was to study how to bring down the stress hormones so that you can handle situations of high stress.

And if you don't mind, just I'll throw it in. I just wrote a book called A Mindfulness Guide for Survival. It's a workbook which teaches people how to do just that. They're not going to meet Donald, but certainly we're going to meet some high winds in our lives, not just a pandemic. So I wanted to throw that in. No, no. I wanted to talk about it. And you wrote that during lockdown. During lockdown, because I needed a journal to say, you know, how do I react to situations? How can I catch myself and then not punish myself, be kind, but pause and say, how do you deal with this?

Rather than being in the eyes of terror or high stress, how do you anchor yourself? And I probably could have done that with Donald. We all, it sounds like we could all do with that book in our lives right now. So thank you for writing that. Well, you know, it's interesting that you spent a lot of time once we're going to go,

we are going to talk about the TV series because it is brilliant. But you also spent a long time now studying mental health and you went back to university, you went to Oxford and you've written extensively about it. So I thought it was quite interesting that you were very open to say, you know, he reminded me of my father. I know exactly what he did. You were able to analyze what, that was fascinating. It's just, you know, just watching you, watching yourself back and analyzing it in that way was just really interesting. I don't think I'd have that point of view if I hadn't studied this kind of stuff. I mean, it sounds kind of self-indulgent, but it's a really, it does develop a muscle in your brain. I mean, doing mindfulness is like,

should be called a workout for the brain. You develop areas so that when you're faced with these daunting situations, you can take a breath and deal with them. They don't go away. These people are terrifying. Reality still happens. We still have loneliness. We still have uncertainty. But we learn to duck, you know, under the bombardment of our fear. And that fear overwhelmed me. And I know it's still good TV, but it didn't feel so good when it was over. Of course, we got him back because I interviewed Melania. And you really did see what he was about.

Except I don't want to ever experience it again. How did you get these people to say, yes, this is pre-social media. This is pre-Twitter. I mean, that's probably better in a way. How did you get these people to say, yes, this is pre-social media, this is pre-Twitter. I mean, that's probably better in a way. How did you convince them? Well, look, they weren't all Donald Trump. So I think once I started with Kerry and then I go to Goldie and then I go to Ben and Liza Minnelli, they call each other and they say, this girl shows you a really good time.

She's not asking standard questions. And so because their PR was a little less important than they were in those days they would say to their pr get lost we're going to spend the day together if you show somebody a good time and you're interested and you listen to them and you're not doing these standard questions that they're bored senseless with and you're playing they want to hang around so they'd see that and they'd go, oh, I want to play too. That's how it happened with the women. And Tom Hanks and Jim Carrey, the guys that know how to play ball,

they know what a sense of humor is and they want to have a good time. So we got them. And it's interesting that those are the guys that have lasted the test of time as well. You know, Tom Hanks still hasn't put a foot wrong. Let's talk about the women because watching you with Carrie Fisher Goldie Hawn is just uh absolute magical television let's talk about Carrie Fisher well she was my heroine and she was always on my wish list so I was really nervous because I knew this was um you know it was like a blind date and I really had to make her like me I mean.

Was it really the first time you met her? So that was usually I meet them before and I have dinner with them. But in her case, she was a busy woman at the time. So that interview was my audition. And I walked in. I was nervous. But because I'm like Trump, she's as human as you get. And she knows how to lob a line. And if you can lob a good line back, she's quite startled because with most people she's not meeting.

I wasn't her match, but I was a good handmaiden. I could give her, I could lob it back, let's just say. And so after that interview where I revealed stuff about myself and they can't believe that I'm telling them this information about me and I'm showing vulnerability and I'm being funny I'm not I'm not saying I always did it I did it with her because the love showed um you know that after that interview we went out for dinner but you don't know that it lasted 30 years and she'd come to my house and we traveled together and it was a it was a love affair and we were going to grow old together that's my kind of girl and you see it you see it and you're right you know you do you are your style is that you are you're a comedian you are funny you're not asking the

standard questions you're kind of bowling them over with you know your personality but you do show vulnerability which even which now I guess you, is so kind of normal for people to talk about and express the vulnerability. But 25 years ago, no one was doing that. And talking about your therapist on British television, that didn't happen. No, I guess it didn't happen. But I think on television, especially, first of all, you're never going to get a celebrity and a movie star that long. And that's not because of me. That's just because they could tell their PR to drop off the planet. Now they're in charge and they'd say five minutes. I can't be interested in five minutes. I showed vulnerability because my mission with these people was to show who

they were under the mask of fame. That was always what I tried to get to, but you have to give them a little, you know little foreplay before you dig down. And that took hours, but because we had to condense it into a half an hour, that's what you're seeing. You're seeing me going really quickly. It gives the appearance that that's how I talk. I don't. It takes a while to warm them up. If you went in somebody's house, like I did with Sarah Ferguson, and go through their fridge, they'd throw you out, or get into bed with Goldie, and then suggest a jacuzzi, and whatever. Oh, with Sharon Stone,

she didn't want to go out in public, so I convinced her to go in disguise, and we put beards on, and walked down the street in kind of Hasidic Jews and sat in a coffee shop where she could be herself. She'd never agreed to that unless we were girlies together. Yeah. How did you do it? What's the trick? You're girlies together. You know, women love women, especially women's women. And when I hit that and there's men that are women's women then I know how to do it. I mean you you did interview some of the biggest female stars of the time do you think stardom treated the women differently to the men?

Those women got through against all odds and in those days talent was the you know that was what thrusted them forward now a celebrity you just have to show up on an island and file your nails I'm sorry but reality tv is interesting is it don't think I don't watch it but it's a different phenomena than going when Liza Minnelli sings in your face you go oh I get it how is wild as she is. And it was what, you know, showing me her and David in bed and going out and doing, oh God, proposing marriage. At the very end, she thinks in my face and you go, yep, I got it. She deserves her fame. So these were women that were so talented that you didn't think, how'd you get here? Who'd you sleep with? They were just talented. And that did go through. That's Sean in those days and probably still does now.

But I couldn't get to them and I've moved on. So I'm not, it was a study in what fame does. And I got the idea. I love Pamela Anderson. You thought, oh, a blonde, you know, whatever we think of blondes and maybe men do too. And there is quoting hamlet in my face plus showing me how she does cervix floor exercise um pelvic floor not sort of and so but you still protect her modesty i really i love that scene because you do get on the floor with pamela anderson you talked to her about how because she's telling you how much she's going to she definitely wants babies and she's the whole interview is done in that incredible swimsuit and her body is off the chart and absolutely perfect and she gets on

the floor with you to do pelvic floor exercises but you still give her a little t-shirt to hide her modesty which I like well when women are funny and beautiful it's so rare Lucille Ball Joanna Lumley Pamela Anderson Sharon Stone Show me another beauty that's funny. Your relationship with Joanna Lumley. I mean, you were working with Joanna before you did the When Ruby Meets series, right? Yeah, I mean, she played Patsy basically when I was doing a show in a studio and we would break into her house and she was out of her mind. She was snorting Ajax.

She was sleeping with people. She didn't know where she was. And we created scenes where it was originally what Patsy did, somebody who'd lost their mind. And then the audience would write in saying, how could I treat Joanna Lonely that way? Like, are you crazy? Of course she's not like that. So I loved mixing comedy that was scripted, as I did with Tom Hanks, and an interview show. See, you were never sure which was which. Tom Hanks went with it. What was the deal with the Tom Hanks interview? I could see he was bored doing interviews. I could see that. So unlike other people where, okay, I'd have to stick to the point and then go off piece. With him, I could see he'd never liked that interview.

So I wrote something where Clive, my producer, walked him down the hall and said, something's really wrong with this woman. So laugh at everything she says. Just pretend she's a genius. Clive, who actually was throwing up with anxiety because he had to do a scene. He's a producer with Tom Hanks. He wasn't even making sense. And when Tom entered the room, everything I said, he laughed. He fell on the floor.

I gave him free amenities that you get in a hotel room. He was bowled over. He pretended I was a genius. And he laughed so much at everything I said that I started to think maybe I am funny. Maybe I am this talented. He was that good. Now, that was a good scene, as it was with Jim Carrey. When they play ball, it's great comedy.

It's not a real interview. Yeah, and also that's when you come into your own as well because you're just vibing. Someone's just messaged into the program, 84844, by the way, is the number to text. Welcome back, Ruby. The world loves real people, and you are up there with the program. 84844, by the way, is the number to text. Welcome back, Ruby. The world loves real people and you are up there with the best.

How about that? Give me their number. Yeah, I think it, yeah. You said that it was a, you know, a study into celebrity and you really do comment on who the real people are and who are the ones

that are the most affected because you're right up there with them, seeing it face to face and they can't hide from you because you just see it Goldie Hawn you say it was one of the realest people you've ever met well I mean a she's hilarious and beautiful and uh and then she'll go down with me she'll she's grounded also I have to say she's been raising money for mindfulness in schools and it's in thousands of schools in america so again she evolved some people don't evolve it's interesting to do a show somebody should do it where are they now but goldie was a survivor

yeah absolutely i'm so beautiful to watch on screen. Like, really? Oh, my God. Amazing. Madonna, bit of a tricky customer. I didn't really understand her, and that shows. So I'm lobbing questions that are from left field. And it's such a bad interview in my mind that at the end, it's a comedy show. I'm always scared that they won't let me come back. Well, in the end, they didn't let me come back. But it was after 25 years.

So that was a good run in. And then I got too old because women can't be on TV. Yeah, what happened? What happened? Why did it? Because you were 25 years, strong career. I mean, you are the forefront. You're making documentaries like no one else has made before.

Why did it stop? Well, it wasn't Louis Theris through who i ended up really loving i i because he did an interview with me and we it was closure for me it wasn't about louis it was what i projected onto him men are always stopping me in my tracks but there was a man i'm not going to name his name, who took my budget and made his own shows. I'm not bitter. I could be. But it meant that I could go to Oxford a few years later. That never would have occurred to me if I wasn't out of work. And so in a way, it launched me into a new, you know,

like a caterpillar before they become a butterfly. It hurts like hell. Who wants to be a caterpillar before they become a butterfly. It hurts like hell. Who wants to be a caterpillar? But thank you for making me jump over the abyss. Luckily, I landed. The worst thing is to be some celebrity being really angry and then doing shows that are humiliating. Well, I didn't do that.

I could write my books and my shows, live shows. Takes a lot, though though takes a lot to get to that place particularly when you've been so successful and I just just to explain to the listeners to the Louis Theroux comment it's because you did Louis Theroux's podcast which I can highly recommend if anyone you've got to listen to it it's on um uh you can find it wherever you find your BBC sounds BBC sounds is where you can find it um and you say to Louis you talk about how he stole your career. Well, I was wrong.

I mean, I thought he did, but he really didn't. It's just, you know, eventually you're replaced. But his style is completely different. And I see why I never watched his shows until that day. I see why he lasted because he plays neutral and lets the other people take it. Whereas I became a personality and I should have at a certain age gone behind the camera because I interview well. But I didn't think of it.

No, Ruby, you were great. We watched you for you and we watched you because you were you. I could have been me behind the camera. Then you wouldn't see me age. You've aged amazingly. What was it like watching yourself back after 25 years? Well, it was startling. I never watched it before. I thought at first, why is she cracking one joke after another? And then I remember I edited that way.

But I'm glad that I left in things when we became real. I thought it looked like with the girls. I was having the time of my life. I was just, you know, that was the greatest gift you could give somebody who wasn't doing too well before. So I'm really grateful. And you have been really busy. Like you said, you've written books about mental health. Tell us about the one you've written through lockdown. Oh, thanks.

As I say, I ran something. Well, I didn't say it. I ran something called Frazzle Cafe and I ran it every night. I still run it where people can get online. And I did hundreds of people and speak from the heart. That's sort of what the remit is. And do not talk about the news. And this isn't therapy.

And people know what that means. So never, we never thought technology would be a bonding experience in this way. It is because there's no distraction. You're on it. And we can see the whites of each other's eyes and there's real compassion. So I heard what was disturbing them during lockdown and it was like a roller coaster. So I took those subjects, which are about reality, you know, facing loneliness, uncertainty, change, death, dissatisfaction. That's always been there. It's been there for thousands of years, but we've been so busy. And it's not cool to look at this kind of stuff. And there's too much shopping. And Zara's open

all night. So why would we ever have to face those facts? But what it means is, you know, if you understand that we're impermanent, every minute becomes precious. It's not just about, oh, what do I have to do next? We do this thing called nexting. Whereas suddenly we're without distraction. And rather than start to panic or lose our minds or weep, you could have used that time to look a little bit.

And that's what the book's about. What's the name of it? What's it called? Oh, it's called A Mindfulness Guide for Survival. Brilliant. Ruby, thank you so much. Another message just in. Thank you.

So great to hear Ruby on the radio. Marvelous woman. I'm a huge fan. I watch and read everything she does. Well, Ruby Wax is back on our TV screens Sunday night, 9 p.m. on BBC Two. Thank you so much. Now, as you may already know, next week on Woman's Hour is Listener's Week and one of the topics you've opted to discuss is the breakdown of friendships

and what it's like being the one who's been dumped. Have you ever been broken up with by a friend? We'd love to hear your experiences and if you're comfortable, have you join us on the programme? So get in touch via our website or text us 84844 about that or anything you're listening to on the program today. Now, have you ever hated someone? We tend to think of hate as one of the strongest emotions we can have. And often it can be more uncomfortable for us to experience than to direct at people.

So what happens when you find yourself hating someone that you once loved after the breakdown of a relationship? Well, the singer and songwriter Martha Wainwright discussed this recently in an interview. She said, divorce has given me wisdom, but also a deep feeling of anger and hatred, which I had never had before. It's a terrible feeling to dislike somebody so much. I just constantly try and remind myself that I did at one point love this person very much and I chose to have children with them. Well, how common is it then? And what can we do to process this feeling, particularly if you share children or need to remain in contact? Well, Fahima Mohammed is a relationship coach for singlemuslim.com and Sarah Davison is the author of The Divorce Coach. And they both join me now.

Good morning. So, Sarah, let me start with you. How common is it to feel hate towards someone you've loved? Well, I think it is very common if there has been some injustice as the breakups happen. Maybe there's a betrayal or cheating, an affair. maybe there's been some abuse over a period of time, usually relationships that fizzle out over a long period of time, that can be relatively amicable, because you just drifted apart and that can happen. But if there has been a devastating incident or a series of destructive events over a period of time, then sometimes that is where you see the real hatred come up. And it's a tough emotion to work through

because it can really keep you stuck. And messages are coming through already from lots of our listeners. Just on what you were saying, someone said, I'm currently experiencing a range of feelings, including hate, incandescent rage, grief, sadness, bemusement, and feeling an absolute idiot as I come to terms with the

ending of a 25-year relationship, I had a gut feeling for a long time that something was off. And someone else has said, I don't hate my ex. I despise him. He cheated on me numerous times, and we separated in 2018. He quickly started dating someone else. Stuff that, Sarah, you will have heard time and time again. So what does this kind of hate, where does it take people to and how can you end up reacting with that feeling? Well, first of all, it is really normal. I think it's important for people to understand there's nothing wrong with them. It is a really normal human reaction to being put in a very difficult situation. So please be reassured that your reaction is normal and there are things you can do about it being stuck in rage or anger will put up questions in your mind like what's wrong with

me I call these hamster wheel questions you're going round and round saying how could they do this like what's wrong with me now if you keep asking yourself those questions you're going to stay stuck so again it comes down to taking your control back questions, you're going to stay stuck. So again, it comes down to taking your control back, because whilst you're in that situation, the impact means it's going to overwhelm your entire life. It's not just about your relationship, it will have a negative impact on your parenting, on your ability to work, on your mental health, because it's going to generate a lot of stress and hurt and pain and anxiety. So it is important if you are experiencing these emotions, it's time to take your control back.

We can't control what our ex has done, what they're doing, or unfortunately, what they are going to do. So the importance comes down to you taking your control back, because we all control the remote control to our brain and we have the ability to dial down some of those negative emotions and there are things that people can do to help them move through this i'm going to bring fahima here on this because fahima you have lived through it haven't you you have experienced that feeling of hate and as someone here says i didn't i didn't hate him i despised my. 84844 is the number to text, by the way, if you want to message in. Is this stuff you can relate to for Hema?

Absolutely. I can resonate with everything that Sarah has said. And also I've gone through a journey myself, which I have to say that I have overcome and I have healed. But there are still moments that you can still feel it. So people think that, you know, once you've healed, it kind of completely goes away and it doesn't. And I've studied so much over the last few years since my divorce to actually now help others in similar situations alongside everything else. It is kind of like a grieving process and a bereavement as well with so much loss and that expectation and that promise that is broken so that it's a lot at stake.

I mean, we are grown up with cultures and backgrounds or even, you know, just generally in society, you know, trying to live this fairy tale and also in a bubble where we think that, you know, marriage is forever and it is never going to break once you enter into a promise or a contract. And we never really, you never really live up to preparing ourselves for the inevitable at certain points. And we need to actually be strong as women to hold our own identity, be in a particular way so that we're not actually foreseeing it,

but we are actually going to be prepared for anything like that because humans are fallible. They will change, they will fall, they have their weaknesses. So I try to help others alongside my own experience to actually, you know, turn that sort of pain and anger, hate and whatever feeling that is negative into something of strength and power, and bring about more self awareness and analyze the situation, creating more sort of different purpose and

meaning and creating a different narrative so that you can move forward a lot quicker than normal. And there's definitely a way, as Sarah has mentioned, definitely there's strategies. How do you do that? Because by the sounds of messages coming in, there's a lot of people out there who are feeling a lot of hate, a lot of anger, grief, resentment, bereavement,

all those words you've used. So what's the process? How do they get to the stage that you're at where you've come through the other end? It takes time, it takes character as well, personality, it takes support. And it does take you reaching out to others. It does take you sometimes going into seeking professional. At that time, I was studying to become a qualified life coach. And I had to have coaching myself. And I put myself in a situation where I had to be vulnerable, I had to be open. I had to open up and I was going through it very, very early on, literally within three months of finding out of my betrayal.

And it really did help me heal. And then I studied so many other courses around it. And I'm not even stopping right now because I realized that with that awareness, it opens up so many pockets that actually, you know, I raised these kind of awareness on my shows on TV. And I actually now am studying further to do my master's in psychology and neuroscience to understand the human mind and how we can actually have control and power and manage it so that we can be better at these challenges and be more resilient. And even if we're going through the process and we have those emotions, we can be more resilient. And even if we're going through the process, and we have those emotions, we can be more emotionally intelligent, that we can actually process things better. Because like Sarah mentioned, it is a knock on effect to our parenting and everyone else around us. So the

soonest you know, you turn to somebody, and they can make that and highlight that for you, then sometimes you can, you know, catch yourself a little bit earlier on than you would normally and not carry this resentment, which people have for many, many years, and it has kept them stuck. So it's definitely not something that, oh, yeah, you know, you're just going to have like, you know, a moment where you're just going to switch, you do need to seek some sort of outside support. Like, like you, Sarah, the divorce coach who has stories day in day out, someone has just messaged in and I want to know how much this rings true with you and how many stories like this you've heard um Janet has said I filled my now ex-husband's briefcase with cooked rice he found out when he opened it in front of his colleagues now I'm not sure whether

that was the right thing to do but she must have felt good doing it yeah and this is the thing anger and hatred can make you do some really, what you might think at the time is therapeutic things. I had a client recently who had a best friend over and the best friend was also very emotionally involved in the breakup, as friends and family usually are. And she suggested, let's cut up all his clothes, put them in bin bags and dump them outside his new flat. And again, in the process that it went through, there were some really tough consequences for her because of her actions. So whilst that might feel good in the moment, in the long run, maybe that isn't the right way. And there are things you can do, as I've said, to dial down those negative emotions. And as Fahim said, for help is is one thing I would also say you know starting to take control back and think before you act is also going to be helpful for you because in the

moment like with the suitcase the briefcase full of rice you know that is something that might have felt good but ultimately holding your head high and doing the right thing is going to steer you well especially if you're going through a legal process like a divorce, and especially if you've got children as well, because you want to be doing the right thing and being a role model. Another tool that I find really helps people in that initial moment is to try and focus not on all the good things, because our mind will trick us and focus on everything we're missing out on, what was great about the relationship, and sort of filter out all those things that annoyed you, that irritated you, that maybe really upset you. So writing a list of everything that wasn't great will also give you a little bit of a reality check and help you get some perspective and hopefully delve down some of

those actions you mentioned. Oh, I like that. How counterintuitive. Write down all the things that really annoyed you about them to remind you why you're not with them. Very good advice. Fahima, in some communities, divorce itself is stigmatised and the weight of expectation is always on women, on the women, to make the marriage work. Does this increase strong emotions towards,

can it increase strong emotions towards your ex-partner? Because it's not just about your partner. It can actually involve a whole family and a community, can't it? Absolutely. What you're saying is 100%. A lot of women do feel that, you know, they're going to be blamed, even if they're not the ones that has initiated it or has done anything that they have seen to actually end that marriage. And in some communities, it's such a stigma. You want to look down upon, it's not just losing your family, it's such a stigma. You are looked down upon. It's not just losing your family. It's not just losing community. It's people that are not going to

actually acknowledge you anymore. And you are looked upon as a failure. And it is upon the women to actually make or break a relationship, unfortunately, because if it's all on them to, you know, have things good or if it goes wrong again, it's their fault. And that can breed resentment as well, because if you feel that you have to stay in the marriage regardless, then that is going to make you feel hatred. What can that be like? Absolutely. I have so many women coming to me with the same sort of like scenario where they do feel stuck, but they will never leave because of what it looks on in society, what it would be for their future, even for their children,

they will never be looked upon as potential sort of like future spouse for their children, because, you know, they come from a divorced family. I've definitely turned that around and broken those barriers. And I've worked really hard in the last few years, it's been a very short space of time, where if people were to say that, I'm like, well, no, my kids are doing absolutely fine. It shows in their mindset, in in their actions and I had to do that for myself first. And have you experienced it firsthand people treated you differently because you're divorced? I may not have noticed it as much as maybe other outsiders because I'm a different character I'm quite strong and I do put myself out there I'm not afraid of confrontation I'm

really confident and even when I feel a particular way, even at the very beginning, I never showed it. I was on autopilot. So I dealt with it slightly differently. I did have a good, strong support system with my family as well. And, you know, again, you know, I could have gone the other way, but I'm a fighter. I don't give up and I don't break. And I always have that self-worth and self-esteem within myself. And I think that does make a difference. And that's what I want to share with other women, that it is not your fault. It is not you. And even if it's gone wrong, there might be some accountability or responsibility.

But still, there are different ways of dealing with it, especially when it comes to betrayal and injustice. And when you're feeling that hate, own it, acknowledge it. But then let's learn how to deal with it so it's actually going to serve you and not actually harm you so it's actually a healthy way that I help people move forward so they can actually build more strength. Well I think that is a perfect message to end this little topic on thank you both to Fahima and to Sarah 84844 is the number to text and you are texting in on this someone has said I'm still with my husband of 30 years even though I know he's been having a relationship with a work colleague for the last three and a half years. I love and hate him at the same time, but reluctant to give up my life and family and close mutual friends and ending up losing everything.

I've taken to writing everything down, which somehow gives me some essence of control back. Struggling. Oh, I hope listening to Sarah and Fahima has given you some strength and helped you in some way. You can also email us by going to our website and maybe we will come back to this topic as so many of you are messaging in. Now, as part of our money series today, we are looking at the FIRE movement. The acronym stands for Financial Independence Retire Early. It's a method of extreme saving in order to retire or stop working decades earlier than expected. Exhausted from high pressure jobs and with a growing sense of burnout,

some millennials are turning to the FIRE strategy in an attempt to become financially independent sooner. Stella Owusi is a 32-year-old single with no children and lives in London. She works as a contractor in the pharmaceutical industry. And Stella is doing FIRE and runs Financially Fierce UK on Instagram which empowers women to have more control over their money. So in total I've been doing the FIRE movement for about two years now and my FIRE life looks like tracking my expenses, being intentional about my spending, also tracking my net worth, having a side business to increase my income and the amount that I invest each month. Since the pandemic my social life has decreased

obviously which has helped me save more money, save and invest more money but I try to not let the fact that I'm pursuing FIRE impact my social life and friendships. And I do this by looking for ways to save money, such as cheap days and nights out. I'm always looking for a bargain, basically. My post-retirement dreams are that I'll be able to spend my days as I wish, being a lady of leisure, basically having time in the morning to go gym time in the day to go lunch with my friends I also want to become more involved in volunteer projects and charity work that I'm passionate about and in the future be a state home mum because I'll be making enough passive income to fund my lifestyle I plan to retire by the time that I reach 40 so that gives

me eight years to achieve this goal. So wish me luck. We're wishing you luck. We also want to know how to do it. Joining me now are Emma Lou Montgomery, who is a personal finance and investment writer at Fidelity International and Sarah Pennells, a consumer finance specialist from the Royal London. Morning to you both. Sarah, let me come to you first. When and how did the FIRE principle start? Tell us what it's all about. Well, people have been living off their investments for years, but it has really been a very few people who've been doing that. And I think it really kicked off in the 1990s in the States. And it got quite a boost in around 2010 when somebody wrote a book about sort of

retiring early. He retired at the age of 33. I think what was interesting, though, was in the early years, it seemed to be really kind of men who were blogging and writing about it and doing the fire movement. And it kind of came over here much, much later. I think really over the last few years, we've seen much more about it. And also, interestingly, more women beginning to write and talk about how they're doing fire.

Emma-Lou, let's go through to the finances a little bit. How much do you need to save to be able to do this? How much do you need in the bank? What should you be doing to make sure that you can live this dream life? Yeah, right. So if you're a devout fire movement follower, you're looking at some serious frugality here. You've got to be saving something like 50% to 75% of your income,

your net income every month. So it's looking at sort of like building up a pot of money that you can basically live off. So you've got to work out, say, how much you need to live off. So if you save the £20,000 a year, the rule of thumb is you need to build up a pot worth 25 times that so for 25 000 you're looking at sort of 600 000 pounds plus which you need to build up so it's some really sort of hardcore saving you need to do um you know whether that's sort of achievable for most people i don't know but of course i think the the sort of message from this

even if you sort of can't go the whole hog and and dedicate you know a couple of grand a month to these sort of your savings pot it is something that we can all aspire to you know we can we can all see how we can actually save something and that's better than nothing and that gives us you know potential financial freedom further down the line so do you have to be in a very high paid job or have some sort of financial support from friends and family to be able to do this? The people obviously we've looked at who've been doing this have you know they're amazing they have managed to do this at the age of like 32 and you think how on earth I think you know you've got to have absolutely zero outgoings

so the people we've looked at they said you, we focus on having a house, a roof over our heads, you know, clothes to wear and something to eat. And that's it. Basically, for the 10 years or so, they've actually scraped this money together. They've pretty much lived a really sort of basic life and really try to save as much as they possibly can do. So I think, you know, you need to have a decent amount of money. You need to be earning enough money. You know, how somebody would be starting, you know salary in somewhere like london or another big city would manage to do this i don't know if it's that sort of achievable but you know enough people are doing this and it does show that you can get money together and if you really really want to do this then yeah definitely you've got to save absolutely as much as you possibly can but sarah

it's not just about savings is it it's what you do with your savings because the millennials who are switched on to this talk about investments, don't they? Yes. Yeah. And it's really interesting because we quite often talk about saving and investing in the same breath, but they are quite different. And if you want to have the kind of retirement where, you know, maybe you're not retiring at 40, it might be a bit later. You're not going to be able to do that no matter how much of your income you manage to put aside if you have it in a savings account. So there are a number of pieces of research that show over the longer term, and we are talking longer term here, you are likely to do better if you invest that money. Now, of course, investing does come with risks. You have to understand there will be ups and downs. You have to know what you're doing for starters.

Well, a lot of people, interestingly, I mean, most of us now do have a pension, especially if we're employed, because your employer will put you into that pension and they'll pay into it and you do and the government gives you a tax top up. But we did some research last autumn and said to people, do you know where your pension money is? What happens to your pension money when it goes in your pay packet? And some people thought it went into a bank account. Some did realise it was invested. And then we said, OK, now you know that your pension is invested. Do you feel like an investor? And there was a really big difference between how men and women answered this. So almost a third of men said, yep, I feel like an investor. Only 17% of women did. And one other

interesting thing, well, I thought it was interesting, Only 17% of women did. And one other interesting thing, well, I thought it was interesting, was that we said, have you ever checked or changed how much you pay into your pension? And about a third said they'd never even checked. And I think if there's anything we can take away from the FIRE movement, it's actually changing how we think about retirement. Because I think for a lot of us, it's something we kind of drift into. You get to a certain age, you can't work anymore, you don't want to, and then you retire. But switching it to that active choice of, you know,

when do I want to be financially independent so I don't have to work? It may not be we can do it when we're 40, but perhaps when we're 55, 60, or even just a year or two before you get your state pension. So, you know, if the FIRE movement sort of sparks a change in the way we think about retirement to something we actively plan for, I think that really has to be a good thing.

Yeah, I think this is all really good advice. Why, Emmalou, do you think this is particularly something that the millennial generation has switched on to? What is their relationship with work and money that's different to everybody else's? I think this is a way they've taken sort of reframed the whole concept of retirement. You know, it's not that you work for decades of your life and then you've got this sort of like last 10 to 20 years which you can be free to travel the world these the fire movement is really about reframing it we sort of you know getting out of the rat race and not doing the old 95 format that we've all done for decades but actually you know making sure that you are financially free making

sure that you are able to live your life doing whatever it is you want to do whenever you want to do it. And they don't want to wait till they're, you know, 55 plus or older to actually be able to go and live their dreams. They want to do that now. You know, that might be going traveling for a while, as some people do. That might be just taking time out to have a family or start a business you know it's just about having the freedom and the flexibility to not be confined to the rat race but to be able to to live your life on your terms financially free and also have the resolve to do it because you have to live really frugally and we are told to live you know a consumerist lifestyle we're told we we should have the house and the car and stuff and nice clothes and the handbag and all the rest of it this is going

against the grain and maybe doing something completely different to what your peers might be doing. It is going against the grain. But to be honest, if you're going to do this, now is probably the time to kickstart it. Because, you know, the past 18 months have shown us that life can throw some real curveballs at you. And interestingly, we've also found that lots of us

have got these sort of like surprise and inverted comma savings where you know we haven't been spending on the all those sort of usual things we have been doing um you know on a day-to-day basis before the pandemic all those outgoings have maybe stopped there's a bit more money in the pot and if you've got a nice little sum of money there now wouldn't it be nice to invest that, grow that and, you know, add more to it? And that is the real start, I think, of financial freedom there. So maybe turn this pandemic around as a chance to, if you're fortunate enough to have those, you know, lockdown savings, to use those to kickstart this financial freedom. I think you'll really thank yourself for it in the

future. Emma-Lou and Sarah, thank you very much. A bit of financial advice on a Friday. Now, Indian-American violinist Preetha Narayanan and British cellist Tara Franks met while studying at the Guildhall School of Music and went on to form a strings duo, Balladest. Their style has been described as Indo-Baroque meets alt-folk minimalism. For their forthcoming album, Beyond Breath,

they've taken fragments of melodic lines from a set of Indian devotional songs that Preetha learnt in childhood as their inspiration. And they join me now live in the studio, which always seems like such a treat. Welcome to both of you. Now, Preetha, you were born and grew up in the States, in Memphis, Tennessee. What were your musical influences growing up? Oh, it's so vast, I'd say. Well, I learned classical music in a formal setting. And that was because my mom was really keen for us, even after she moved from India, to pursue music.

But in our household, we had the Beatles, Michael Jackson. I was in Memphis, so we had exposure to the blues and bluegrass. So it was really big. And at home, because my family was South Indian, we were listening to Carnatic music, the South Indian classical form of music. And how about you, Tara? Yeah, so I also grew up doing formal classical training on cello.

And my family were all into music, really, really into music. And we did a lot of singing and particularly a lot of early music. So I grew up with a lot of that kind of surrounding me. But then I suppose like really varied in what I'd listened to that was out of music making and out of because I kind of saw that as almost as a job from a young age. But the music I'd listen to with friends or go out to or go out dancing to. And then how did the two of you meet? How did this union come about? So we met at Guildhall on a course that we were doing at Guildhall School of Music which

is called, well it's sadly not going anymore but it's called the Leadership Course but basically it is, it was about collaborative practice so it was about creating music with other people, be that in the community, with other musicians, with visual artists, other forms of art forms and kind of coming into a space and making something collectively together. And our close friend, Philippe Pianist, Philippe Souza, he started a group after we left the course, which has now become a trio of ours, Quest Ensemble. And through that, we kind of developed a special relationship that grew into what is now Balladez. Well, and I think we should listen to some of your music because it is absolutely stunning. Here is Sairam, which is from your album, your new album, by Balladez.

Let's have a listen. I always don't want to talk over it. It's so beautiful. The track is called Sairam and it's from your new album, Beyond Breath. And Preeti, you're playing violin and Tara, you're on cello there. Tell us about what we're listening to. Yes, so as you mentioned before, this album has been inspired by Indian devotional songs. So the melodies that I grew up listening to, I brought to Tara at some point because I just felt they were starting to speak to me.

I think when I was younger, I didn't appreciate the extent of their value and how much they had an emotional resonance. But maybe with maturity, you start to really become nostalgic for your childhood. You also start to value the things that have come and created lessons in your life. And we explored one of the tunes in our first album. And it was just such a unique experience to have this style of music that had influenced me and bring it to the duo that we had started to write our own music and say, hey, let's see what we can do with this. And I also had my familiarity with how the music flowed

and maybe in some ways the correctness of how these melodies are rendered. And to explore it with Tara, we were able to take it out of that setting and find new ways of approaching them, whether it meant arranging, bringing new harmonies to them, but also seeing what Tara perceived of these melodies. Yeah, what did you think of them? Well, so yeah, interestingly, because our first album we wrote, so we write everything through playing and improvising.

It's not notated. It's just through a process of exchange through playing. Incredible. And also, like, talking about it a lot, but it's just a lot through we play and then we have an idea and we're like, let's keep playing with that. Let's make it. And so this, for us, which might be a more normal way of working for some people, was more unusual because we had these melodies.

But it's literally just the melody line. And then we were kind of looking at how do we bring what the kind of collective voice that we found through our composing, but make something new, but that has some integrity with it. And the interpretation of the melodies was kind of hard for me because P breather hears them in a really particular way and then and then I was like do I need to interpret that line in exactly that way or is there a way I can take like an essence of the feeling of the line and then bring my own kind of voice into it and you've done it brilliantly because it's just the whole album I listened to it yesterday is heavenly and my little dog Raffi loved it too she normally scarpers when i play music but she just fell asleep to it um we're gonna hear another i think we should hit some more music because we

can just about fit it in we're gonna hear another clip from a track river tell us about this uh oh yeah go on um well river i think is one of the um the classic examples of us bringing these tunes these um styles of music and our voices together. And I think we were really able to explore the melody, but changing it and letting it evolve into our own melody. Absolutely stunning. And the album is out now. It's called Beyond Breath. Pritha and Tara, thank you so much for coming in and speaking to me.

Lots of you getting in touch with the show today. It's been great to hear from you. Sorry I can't read out every text, but Robin says, Love, love, love, ruby wax, fierce, smart, huge grace, wry wit and bundles of humanity. That's wonderful. Have a great weekend and join us on monday that's all for today's woman's hour join us again next time

hello i'm pandora sykes and just before you go i wanted to tell you about a new podcast pieces of britney my attempt to piece together the life of britney spears and the forces that have forged it a huge fan fan, yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person. I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail, and there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted, this is what you're going to get. In this eight-part series for BBC Radio 4,

I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney.

Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.