Woman's Hour - DIY dancing at home; Transgender athletes; Ugandan women; Eco novels

Episode Date: June 23, 2021

Nightclubs are shut, dancing at weddings is not allowed and gigs and festivals are still uncertain. If you want to dance you have to do it at home. Woman's Hour shares your DIY dancing stories and gets tips from Guilty Pleasures DJ, Sean Rowley and Strictly dancer, Amy Dowden. Laurel Hubbard is going to be the first transgender athlete to compete at the Olympics which starts next month. It's controversial, and she'll make history. She'll be part of the New Zealand women's weightlifting team at Tokyo. Laurel came out as transgender in 2013 - and qualifies for the Olympics on the basis that her testosterone levels have been kept below a certain level for at least a year. But how does a reduction in testosterone affect other aspects of the body - such as haemoglobin levels, muscle mass and strength - that could influence competitive performance? And what research is needed to help inform the balance between inclusivity and meaningful competition in sport? Joanna Harper, a PhD researcher at Loughborough University talks about her latest study.Imagine having your home destroyed, losing your livelihood, and then being intimidated by those now on the land. That’s what hundreds of women in Western Uganda say has happened to them; they were violently evicted from their homes to make way for a sugar plantation. In an investigation for Woman's Hour, they've told us they are now left with no option but to live in extremely poor conditions in a makeshift camp, where they face physical and sexual abuse from the plantation workers. To make things worse, many of their husbands have abandoned them while they find employment elsewhere. The UK provides overseas aid for these woman as they fight for compensation for their lost land. But, that UK funding is due to end soon, even though after five years a legal dispute over the land is still unresolved. Two novels - one published tomorrow and one just out in paperback explore the human impact of environmental disaster through the lives of girls and women. They both ask - what is really important to us? What lasts when everything we think we need is stripped away? Kate Sawyer, author of 'The Stranding', her first novel, and Diane Cook, whose book 'The New Wilderness' was shortlisted for The Booker Prize last year, discuss their work.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Joanna Harper Interviewed Guest: Sean Rowley Interviewed Guest: Amy Dowden Interviewed Guest: Sostine Namanya Interviewed Guest: Kate Sawyer Interviewed Guest: Diane Cook

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome. Let's start today with a little of this, shall we? MUSIC PLAYS Gloria Jones, belting out tainted love. That is what we need this morning, every morning and evening, as far as I'm concerned, because it's personally very high on my kitchen disco playlist. And that's what we're going to talk about today. Where are you letting off steam? How are you dancing? Dance. Is it in your life at all? There is a sadness, isn't there, when you get to a certain point that it gets out of your life because you don't necessarily go clubbing or go out in quite the same way.

Or perhaps because if you're at that age and you haven't been able to go out because of restrictions perhaps you've been missing it or maybe you rely on weddings to be the places that you do that or parties speculation is of course mounting over further covid restrictions being lifted on july 19th but in the meantime we're left with the reality that clubs are still shut dancing at weddings isn't allowed summer festivals festivals are still uncertain. We're keeping our fingers crossed, of course, for the dance floors, wherever you get them to be opened next month. But until then, tell me, tell us all, where do you dance? What do you dance to? How do you let off steam? Is it in the kitchen? Is it in the park? Maybe you've been doing that. Tell us what it is. What do you listen to?

And also what dance gives to you? Perhaps you also have a partner who doesn't like dancing. I know a lot of people have that. So does that present an issue? Have you got them to get their dance shoes on a little bit more? What is it for you? What does it give to your life? There is a terrible sadness that I have about this, that I think we stopped dancing far too young in many ways.

And also, you know, watching my three-year-old dance with such wild abandon. Why do we get so self-conscious? Tell us how you are about this and where you are with this. 84844. You can text on that number. Social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour.

Or email us your experiences through our website. Of course, you may be in charge of a festival. You may be trying to have a wedding. All of those things are very relevant right now. What are you doing about that?

Do let us know. We are, of course, navigating a very uncertain time at the moment, but that also means we've still got to remember to do the things that feed our souls and make us feel a little bit more like who we are. Also on today's programme, we'll have a special report for you on what's happening to some women in Western Uganda, which is an important one to make sure you hear to and all the details with that. But keep your messages coming in and I really look forward to seeing them throughout the programme.

And I'm sure you'll have something to say about this as well, because this week it was announced that 43-year-old Laurel Hubbard will become the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympics after being selected for the New Zealand women's weightlifting team at Tokyo 2021. She held national junior records in male weightlifting, but left the sport in her mid-20s before transitioning in 2013. It is controversial. She'll make history. The International Olympic Committee made the decision that Laurel could lift for the women's side on the basis that her testosterone levels have been kept below a certain level for at least a year,

below 10 nanomoles per litre. Critics say, though, that lowering testosterone does not fully remove the advantages gained through a male puberty, such as muscle mass and strength. Studies into this are few and far between, but research from Loughborough University, published in March this year, has tried to bring together what we do know so far and how it might inform a balance between inclusivity and meaningful competition. And that's what we're going to examine today, what the International Olympic Committee has used to inform that decision and whether it's enough and whether it's right. I'm now joined by Joanna Harper, a PhD researcher at Loughborough University, who co-wrote that peer-reviewed study published in the British

Journal of Sports Medicine. She wrote that with five others, which reviews the evidence on how hormone therapy changes the bodies and strength of trans women and what the implications might be for sport. Joanna, good morning. Good morning. Why is testosterone as a measure potentially not enough? Well, testosterone is the single most important difference between male and female athletes, but it's certainly not the only difference. And in particular, with transgender women, after they've gone through male puberty once they lower their testosterone back to to or down to typical female values not everything that they experienced during their male puberty will be completely undone so like what tell us what other aspects you wanted to look at and did look at. Well, the paper examines strength and blood factors, and we found two very different conclusions, depending on which of those parameters you're looking at. In terms of hemoglobin, which is a protein in the blood that's very important to

help oxygen get to muscles and hence matters extremely for endurance events, the transgender women in the study went from typical male levels of hemoglobin to typical female levels of hemoglobin within four months. On the other hand, strength and related strength matters are also important and important for different sports. The strength change was slower and less complete. The trans women did not go from typical male values of strength to typical female values of strength. So you're saying that these are the other things that should be taken into consideration,

because I know also, not that you can say if it did come into your research or not, but your own personal experience of this has had some relationship. Yeah, certainly. As a trans athlete myself, as a distance runner, nine months of hormone therapy was enough to reduce my running speed by 12%, which is the difference between serious male distance runners and serious other distance runners too and published a paper in 2015. But that paper only looked at distance running and no other sport and is not applicable to other sports. OK, but the point is here, I mean, would you say actually just on that, is your experience relevant in any way? Because, of course, you wrote this with other people who were not trans. The Loughborough study, yeah, the other four authors are not trans, but they're scientists. And that, you know, it shouldn't matter if you're a scientist, whether you're trans or non-trans.

You're looking at the science. science um so um my experience informed the previous paper but the work at loughborough with the other scientists informed the current paper so i think that's it's just important to distinguish which papers we're talking about there and and and the experience that bringing to it and i wanted to perhaps we'll come back to that in just a moment but essentially your argument is testosterone is not enough just to look at that on its own because there are other issues. But if looking at that paper in Loughborough, to quote it, you say, or the paper says, but notwithstanding these decreases. So you've talked about the decreases and all those parameters measured strength, lean body mass, muscle area, the reduction in haemoglobin, which just to remind people, as you started to say, has an effect on how much oxygen you can transport to muscles to boost endurance. You say values for strength, lean body mass and muscle area in trans women remain above those of cisgender women,

even after 36 months of hormone therapy. That's correct. Now, all of the studies that we reviewed are studies on non-athletes. And in cisgender or typical athlete studies, you'd never rely on data from non-athletes. And ideally, you wouldn't with trans athletes either. It's just that there's such a paucity of data on trans athletes that it was relevant to look at non-athletes. So when the International Olympic Committee made this decision, and I'll come back to your study in just a moment, they're basing it on nothing then.

If they've not been able to do the studies yet on trans athletes, because as you say, this is the very beginning of it, and you're also saying they shouldn't just base it on testosterone, which they seem to be, and I should say we invited them on and have a statement. What they've done then with this decision with Laurel Hubbard, can it be deemed correct if it's not based on evidence? Well, my earlier paper was published in 2015. So that was certainly there. But again, the Olympics take place every four years and they need to make rules on transgender athletes. So they need to do something. And we had a large group of people

meet in 2015. There were approximately 25 of us in the room and we reached a consensus that this was the best way forward. But based on what? If you haven't got any data, you've just said that you didn't do this research. I know this is latter to that, but you haven't even done the most recent research on trans athletes. Again, we relied on research from non-athletes. And it's certainly less than ideal. But again, the games were happening and they needed some regulation for transgender athletes.

And so we met, we reviewed the science that existed and we made a decision. But less than ideal. I mean, there are people who, of course, we've approached athletes this morning, I should say, and we look forward to welcoming them on about this. But there are people, for instance, who feel less than ideal. It's just unfair. Well, so if it were, quote unquote, fair, we would be seeing 30 or 40 trans athletes. There are 5,000 women going to be competing in Tokyo. Trans people make up approximately 1% of the population. So if we

were talking about a fair and even competition between trans women and cis women, then the two groups would be equally represented by population. And we would see 30 or 40 trans women in Tokyo. And people are getting excited about one woman. But sorry, that's not the bit, forgive me if I can, but that's not the bit I was talking about being unfair, not the number of those being represented, although I take that point. I'm talking about for the science that exists, you've just said, as a PhD researcher, it's less than ideal. And we've done, the decisions have been made with what we can. But you yourself have described the data as less than ideal. So if you were going into that category, if you were coming up against Laurel Hubbard as a weightlifter and this was your one athlete and i think that people are focusing far too much on

that she's not even going to be the only trans athlete uh in tokyo and you failed to mention uh the other two or three who will be there uh and just to focus on Laurel, I think is extremely unfair to Laurel. It's unfair to the IOC. It's unfair to everything. But if you want to discuss Laurel Hubbard specifically, she was sixth in the most recent world championships. This is a good performance, but she's not going to win in Tokyo. But she might. No, she won't. Sorry, you can't come on the radio and say,

this is a completely different debate. You can't come on the radio and say, you know how somebody's going to perform at the Olympics. There is a Chinese woman there who is so far ahead of Laurel Hubbard that unless this Chinese woman dies between now and August, that Laurel is not going to win that competition. Because she's not the best at the moment. She's nowhere near the best. But that's not the argument.

The argument is about whether she should be taking part. And you can say it's unfair for me to focus on it, but she's going to make history by taking part. She's the first transgender athlete to compete after being selected at the Olympics for the New Zealand women's weightlifting team. And if I was to just quote last month, the Belgian weightlifter, Anna van Bellingen,

who was competing in the same category, said this was before the decision was taken, if that she was to compete in Tokyo, it would be unfair for women and it would be like a bad joke. She said that while she supported the transgender community, the principle of inclusion should not be at the expense of others. You're saying the science is less than ideal on this. And I'm trying to ask, how can that be argued then that it's fair and the decision has been made on the correct information

when the information doesn't exist yet? There is some information that exists. The decisions were made upon the best science that existed. Okay, so there are 16 athletes in that weight category who are selected. So you select 16 and then the rest of them are not selected. So Laurel Hubbard is one of the 16 women selected for that category. And I don't think that having her in that field is a markedly unfair decision. But just going back to your own paper, if I could quote it to you.

Taking these strength parameter data collectively and in consideration, again, just say your paper was not of athletes, that doesn't exist, of trans athletes. In consideration of cisgender women demonstrating 31% lower lean body mass, 36% lower hand grip strength, 35% lower knee extension strength than cisgender men, the small decrease in strength in trans women after hormone treatment suggests that trans women retain a strength advantage over cisgender women. That's in your paper. Correct. But we allow advantages in sport. What we don't allow are advantages and so the trans women who were in the study were also markedly lower prior to starting hormone therapy in terms of their strength related aspects and so that needs to be taken into account too. There was another review that suggested that trans women maintained a 17% grip strength advantage, which is less than half of the grip strength advantage. And so that would mean that trans women were closer to cis women in grip strength after hormone therapy than they were to cis men. And so if they're closer to cis women than cis men, then perhaps that's the right category for them. Additionally, well, let me finish. There's one other study of importance. A study of U.S. Air Force personnel was published last year. They studied fitness tests.

The trans women in the fitness tests lost their complete advantage in the number of push-ups per minute that they could do. And push-ups per minute is very important. Upper body strength is very important for that. So this is a strength-related task. And trans women lost their complete advantage. And these women are more trained. They're not athletes per se that they're going to be now allowed to be competing against in the Olympics. And you don't have any data, not you, but the whole world doesn't have any data yet. The International Olympic Committee doesn't have any data yet on trans athletes. Just because they're closer doesn't mean it's equal, doesn't mean it's fair.

It doesn't have to be equal to be fair all that needs to happen is that the strength differences need to be mitigated to the point where we can have meaningful competition but you aren't but you aren't convinced both as a scientist and as someone who has been through hormone therapy you're not convinced that it has been mitigated enough in your own paper i'm'm not 100% convinced, no, but I think that, again, the Olympics are happening. And I think that having Laurel Hubbard and other trans athletes in the Games is not markedly unfair. Now... Hang on, not markedly unfair doesn't mean it's fair. So it doesn't have to be equal. But we're in a situation, I suppose, you know, if I also just quote to you what Sharon Davis, the former British Olympic swimmer has tweeted, we have men and women separate competition for a big reason. Biology and sport matters. Separate

categories give females equal opportunities, equal opportunities of sporting success. I mean, when you sit here and you say, you're saying that the data A isn't there and B, that the data we have still doesn't show we're at the point where it's been mitigated enough. um so i can tell you that i would say in most sports that um it is probably true that hormone therapy mitigates the advantages enough now most sports that does not necessarily include Olympic weightlifting. And I would admit that of all the sports that I might be concerned with, Olympic weightlifting

might be near the top of the list. And so have they made a mistake? Have the International Olympic Committee made a mistake if that's near the top of your sports that you're concerned about? Because I think that's what people are trying to understand. Has a mistake been made? I don't believe so. I think that it's possible that history will say that this is a less than ideal decision, but I don't think it's a mistake. Thank you for talking to me today lots of people have been getting in touch Joanna Harper who's a PhD researcher at Loughborough University who wrote

that peer-reviewed study published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine with five others that you can check out in your own time at more length we tried to give you an insight into that we did invite the International Olympic Committee instead we got a statement saying it's committed, the committee, to inclusion and recognises that all athletes, regardless of their gender identity or sex characteristics, should engage in safe and fair competition. It said it's informed by new developments, data, research and learnings in the scientific and human rights sectors. But it recognises that there is a perceived tension between fairness and safety and inclusion and non-discrimination. And it has decided to work on a new approach to address this complexity. It said it's completing a series of consultations that will consider not only medical, but scientific and legal perspectives, but also that of human rights.

I should also say here at Women's Hour, we approached the British Olympic Association and UK Sport, but no one was available from those organisations. And we approached several female athletes this morning, some former weightlifting champions and current members of the GB team for a comment on this, and none were available to take part. But you, our listeners, are very much with us this morning.

A message here, Sandy does say, why bother as a woman if you have to compete with men now? There will be more after Hubbard. This is bonkers. More messages coming in here around this saying, it may only be a few athletes now but what in about three or seven years time?

Says Claren here, we need to stop this now. One in trans, trans woman sorry, in 16 women means one woman missed out and that is one too many. More consideration here about whether this is fair or not. And more data, requests for more data from some of you coming in around this before decisions are taken and tested. And so it continues. Please keep those messages coming in at BBC Women's Hour or text us on 84844.

And let us know you have already been doing that, I should say, on dancing, which I'm going to come to some of those messages very shortly. But as we were saying right at the start of the programme, and as I plagiarised one of the things I love dancing to, nightclubs are still shut, dancing at weddings still not allowed and the summer festivals are still uncertain. Sean Rowley's on the line, DJ and BBC radio presenter

behind Guilty Pleasures to talk to us about the music side of things. And Amy Dowden, a professional dancer, of course, on Strictly Come Dancing, can perhaps help us with some of our moves. Sean, good morning. Very good morning to you, Emma. Tell us just first of all, I played Gloria Jones' Tainted Love at the start of one of my absolute favourites. What's some of yours?

Well, it's quite interesting. I'm going to reverse it and ask you why that one because the whole thing with tunes that we know and love that get us on the dance floor yes they usually have a connection with our formative years don't they and i was just you're too young to to know that one i i grew up going to the gay village in manchester and it was an absolute anthem and i do associate it with being possibly slightly younger than I should have been to going to clubs and dancing and just letting it all out.

And then I discovered that version later, because of course I love the Mark Harmon version. But it's always that first, I personally needed a song that just has that first bit that gets you going. That amazing. It's that intro. It's that thing that pulls you straight onto the dance floor. It's that wild abandonment that just comes raging through your body and you just can't control yourself and you have to get on the dance floor so for me my formative years were I'm a bit

older than you and my formative years were set in the sort of mid 70s so disco was just huge in my life and uh you know the more poppy end of disco so bands like the Bee Gees uh Boss Scouts they they're the tunes that even now will just literally get me pulled onto the dance floor those are the ones Amy what is it for you and have you been dancing at home because of course when you dance it's serious yeah well especially for lockdown and a lot of zoom lessons with my dance academy as well um but for me I love um Whitney Houston yeah I want to dance with somebody I just I don't know that the beat um yeah I can't help myself but yeah I'm always dancing I dance from room to room do you because I was wondering how that worked I mean when you are a professional and I understand your fiancee is one as well uh Ben Jones do you actually dance properly together in your house no we're just free actually Ben

doesn't really dance at home it's just me I can't keep still I can't even keep still when I go um to do the weekly shop and then you know there, there's some songs on in the supermarkets. I'm dancing up the aisles of the trolley. Yeah. And do you think that it's important to still move, though, even if you're not a professional? What would you say dance gives to people if perhaps they've just sat feeling like they can't do anything, you know, at all at the moment because everything's so odd and strange and where we usually go to do those things are not available I just think letting yourself go be free um any exercise just releases those good at all things and I I don't know it just gives you mobility it puts a smile on your face do I mean just even just ticking away to a beat even sometimes if you

go to a party and your foot is going isn isn't it? Rather than even being up on the dance floor. I think just be free spirited, you know, like they say, dance like no one's watching. And all of a sudden you're just in a better mood. Although, Sean, so you've been having kitchen discos, I understand, with your wife? Yeah, yes, with Jean and my wife. So basically, I mean, you know, first lockdown kicks in back in March and that's it. My regular job, so to speak, I can't really call it a job, but my job of DJing and going out and entertaining people on a Sunday night, that was removed. And I had an itch that I just had to scratch.

So we basically set up the kitchen area with the decks, got a mirror ball in got some really cheap like disco lights and on the saturday night we just sort of had to enter into that space and it whilst there is a level of you use the phrase there of dance like you no one's watching well no one was watching because you're alone you're in isolation and apart from apart from your partner and and I think that we just we just entered into it with just like we've got to do this it's almost for your own sanity but if there's this thing that you love to do that you've been that you've loved to do all of your life you know I've been going out to clubs since the late late 70s yeah

I just had to do it. I had to put music on and dance around the kitchen. Do you think we stopped clubbing too young, Sean? Do you think a lot of people, because I know you've got your, just tell us, because you call it guilty pleasures, but that's to try and bring out some of those tunes that perhaps aren't seen as cool, but everybody actually likes to dance to. But there is a sadness that we retire from clubs.

I mean, I'm getting a lot of messages saying from people, I'm 63 and I still go clubbing. That's great. Do you know what, Emma, there's something that you're really latching on to here because it shouldn't go away. It's part, it's really part of our culture. It's the tribal rituals of Saturday night. It's the thing that we have done. And really, you know, obviously, as you've alluded to there i run a big club night called guilty pleasures that sort of even now has morphed into like a club night that tends to be for a younger crowd so people just say younger in their 20s and early 30s but there is a there's a

massive gap in the market and to tell you the truth when lockdown as we come out of lockdown i'm looking really looking forward to starting up a new venture, which will be I'm engineering clubbing for older people. I mean, it's basically going to be running it on Saturday afternoon. I'm keen. I'm keen. We could talk about that more because we want to get back to that place. But Amy, just to bring you back in, I mean, I'm always struck.

I've got a friend of mine who's a choreographer and a professional dancer. And when she hits the dance floor at a wedding, I mean, make room, make space. It's quite interpretive, her style, I have to say. I absolutely adore it, though. And what do you think in terms of your tips for people at home who might, even in the kitchen disco setting, might feel a bit self-conscious? Have you got anything, Amy, that you'd say? Just relax.

And everybody interpretates music different. There's no right or wrong. Just relax. self-conscious have you got anything amy that you'd say just relax and everybody interprets music different there's no right or wrong just relax enjoy it and be free if you tense up it's hard to walk let alone dance but you're saying even you're saying your fiance ben doesn't even dance at home because is that because he's embarrassed he can't be bothered no it's just like i guess um it's our job but for him he wouldn't dance properly you know I'm not gonna lie you know he might do a little bit but it's all fun it's not like professional dancing but for sure we're like one of the first the pair of us up at a party or um a wedding but not dancing the cha-cha-cha or tango I was gonna say but are you a wedding

is it sort of make space for you guys is that what people do no not at all we're there to enjoy ourselves relax yeah and just um yeah just to be within the atmosphere I think people are still um very much in need of it have you Amy have you missed going to places publicly where you can dance oh absolutely yeah and it's a social element it's just being amongst it isn't it um for sure and I can't wait yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna I was gonna say I don't want to put you on the spot but in terms of you you've not got married yet fiance right what would be your first dance oh we haven't even got round to I'm discussing that, our bridesmaids and groomsmen are all dancers, so I reckon they should put on a performance for us.

They should. We perform, you know, all year round for everybody else. Yeah, it's our wedding day. They can give us a show, I reckon. Is there a song for you personally that, you know, you always will get you up? Yeah, that Whitney dance. The Whitney one?

Yeah. That would always be. Anything upbeat, anything that, you know, has got that, da, da, that you want to clap along. Even if, you know, you just want to tap your hand on the table or your foot is going. Yeah, then the next thing I'm up on my feet. I love the fact you've not discussed your first dance yet

as dancers. I mean, this seems slightly remiss. You've had quite a bit of time, but if you want to decide it here on Women's Hour, we're open to that. Sean, Amy, stay with me. I just want to read a few messages from our listeners. I dance with a group of friends in a barn. We dance barefoot to our own rhythms. We did it on Zoom from our living rooms in lockdown. And now it's good to be together again.

We're called the Exeter Barefoot Dancers, says Penny. You sent me a kiss. Thanks for that, Penny. We've got one here saying here in Scotland, there's no age limit. Joy of all ages, children, young adults dancing together. It's hard to beat. And as a family, we have a jig in the kitchen, but I can't wait for the village hall to be open and dance with family, friends, neighbours and strangers. Sigh, deep sigh there. Rosemary Norwich, good morning to you. I love to dance in the kitchen. To T-Rex, I like to boogie. It releases me and makes me feel so good love the program thank you for that i'm an artist i have a lovely space where i can put the music on and

dance whenever i like to anything i like i used to go belly to belly dance classes and perform locally so occasionally i will put on my arabic music and have a good workout it's great for the spine in particular another one here i started dancing at the beginning of January every morning online. It's been brilliant. I do it on my own before everyone gets up. It's a date with myself, says Katie in York. I've lost four inches off my waist, which is a bonus. A lot of wiggling. I adore house music as it was. I was a massive disco dancer in the 80s. I'm 61 and I still go clubbing. Dancing is my life. And another one here just to say my male partner dances more than I do on the dance floor in the house just because it's so joyful. And I feel so sorry for all my female friends who have partners who refuse to. Sean, that is a bit of a theme I'm getting. Some of the women getting in touch.

I have had quite a few men saying they love to dance, but there are reluctant partners. There are reluctant partners. And sometimes, I mean, you were talking just earlier there about the things, what can you do to sort of break down that barrier? I hate to endorse it too much, but a glass of wine usually helps. Sort of, you know, it's the inhibition start to drop. And there is definitely a, I think what we tended to do, myself and Gina, was we'd set the scene. You know, it was almost like you were walking into a club.

You know, you needed to dim the lights. You needed to turn up the music. As a DJ, I had to have the music prepared. I knew where I was going to go with the tracks. And at that point, once you've got all of the elements in place, that's the moment you can lose yourself into the moment and just drop the inhibitions turn the lights off and get some booze and also and then you'd find invariably the kids would come in through the other room

into the kitchen go mom dad can you turn it down please but but do they are they hang on are they at the age where they're embarrassed or they love it uh there is an element of embarrassment there will always be an element of embarrassment with mum and dad let's face it no matter how cool well yeah but at three i've still got a bit of situation where he actually wants to dance with me my little my little boy and amy thank you so much for talking to us. Any final decisions on that first dance? Do you want to announce that? No, sorry. I like to always try and get answers. You know what I do.

Amy Darden, thank you for talking to us this morning. A professional dancer, of course, on Strictly. And Sean Rowley, DJ and BBC Radio presenter behind Guilty Pleasures. Thank you for taking us a bit into what you like to do and how you set the scene. Lovely to hear that from both of you. Edna says, I love to dance badly around the kitchen when I make the evening meal. That's when I do it.

I dance every day after working a full day from home in my small office. Erasure, ABBA, Spice Girls, anything that gets me moving. I love a bit of erasure. Shake what your mama gave you. Couldn't put it better. Thank you for that. Keep your suggestions coming in. And if you've managed to coax somebody in your life a bit more into dancing, how did you do it? Tell us.

And what does it give to you? And I love the thought of those barefoot dancers as well. That's a lovely, lovely thought. And also when you do it, that's a really good point from Edna, isn't it? A lot more people working from home, needing to then have a moment where they stop it being the office, their house or their flat, wherever they are, and actually turn it into where they relax. Because you don't have that decompression time if you have been working at home now, perhaps on the train or however you got to work. Of course, lots of people still going back out to work. But I think that's a really interesting point from Edna. Perhaps you do it by just blasting music through the house.

And talking, of course, one of the places that we do enjoy music and have enjoyed music and dancing in regular times, it's about weddings because we need your help. If it's not your first time going down the aisle, do you decide to go for the white dress or something a little different? Later this week, we're hoping to talk about bridal wear for the second, third or even fourth time around.

And we would love to hear from you. Are you planning a wedding? You may feel you've never stopped planning a wedding over the last 50 months and moving the date but if you're wearing something that's a contrast to your previous outfit maybe you didn't wear white the first time but are going for it now let us know 84844 or email us through the woman's our website and let us know your take on that and your experience now imagine this special report now we're going to give you that we mentioned earlier from Uganda because imagine your home being destroyed losing your livelihood and then being intimidated by those now on the land that's what hundreds of women in

western Uganda say has happened to them they were violently evicted from their homes to make way for a sugar plantation. In an investigation for Woman's Hour they've told us that they are now left with no option but to live in extremely poor conditions in a makeshift camp where they face physical and sexual abuse from plantation workers. To make things worse, many of their husbands have abandoned them while they find employment elsewhere. Now, the UK provides overseas aid for these women as they fight for compensation for their lost land, but that UK funding is due to end soon,

even though after five years a legal dispute over the land is still unresolved. Through an organisation helping the women, we spoke to some of them. This is Maharaza, who's living in the camp after losing her home. She is also grieving the death of her six-year-old daughter, knocked down by one of the sugar plantations tractors. She began by telling us how she was evicted. I was still in bed in the early hours of morning. I heard a lot of noise outside my house. All of a sudden, I heard people knocking on my door, demanding I open the door. I saw lots of people in Ugandan police uniform and an Indian.

I asked them what was going on. They told me I should vacate the land as it's not mine, despite the fact I have raised my children there and some of them already have families. They said the land is for the company, Hoima Sugar, and I should leave immediately. They then proceeded to my garden. I then saw the caterpillar clearing the crops I had planted in my garden.

I had planted matoke, beans. Some of the police officers were in my beans garden picking them. I was furious and I went to the garden. I had a cup of porridge with me. I went straight to where the Indian was standing. Then I started to shout at him with anger. You Indian! You Indian! Why are you destroying my crops when I have children to feed?

The police came running thinking I will pour the porridge on the Indian. They held me and got the cup off me. Suddenly, a tree they had cut fell close to where I was standing. I asked the police officers, why can't you police officers help me since you are Ugandans? They then pushed me saying, go, go home, go home. I went back to my house. I cried. I sat. I had nothing to add because I could not do much. They took my land like that. I remained with nothing but my children. Before, I had my land, I had property, I had enough crops,

but they were all destroyed and looted in the evictions. I had my chickens, goats, and my house that provided shelter from the rain, unlike now. I would grow groundnuts, maize and matoke to pay fees for the children. But now I can't pay fees for my children. I can't afford soap. When they took away the land, I started having issues with my husband and he ran away leaving me with the children. Since then, the children have never come back to school.

I have given birth to eight children, but one of them was killed. She was run over by a vehicle from the sugar plantation and died on the spot. She was a six-year-old girl. Where were you when she got knocked and when was that? I was on my way from the camp to do casual labour so we could have food to eat and I had nowhere to leave my children so I brought them with me.

The tractor was speeding and hit both of us. She died on the spot. I was left unconscious with injuries and rushed to the hospital. Where did it find you and what is that tractor you are talking of? The vehicle was a tractor belonging to the Indians. It was carrying their plantation workers. We normally pass through the sugarcane plantation going to look for labour.

So that's where it found us. We were walking and we stepped to the side of the road upon seeing it. It hit all of us and we fell into the stream running next to the road. Then after what happened? I was taken to the hospital unconscious. I later understood what had happened when I was already in hospital. How did you find yourself then? I felt a lot of pain and I later realised that my leg had broken on the thigh joint. I spent three months in hospital.

However, I couldn't wait to heal, so I requested to go home. Right now, how is the situation? Are you getting treatment? How are you working with a broken leg? The situation has become worse because my leg has not healed yet. The children have no father, so I have to make sure that I work. My children are struggling with nothing to eat because I am not able to fend enough for them. Even now, the leg pains me.

Which kind of assistance would you need? All I need is to find somewhere to settle with my children because they are still young. I still need to support them. Maharaz was speaking from western Uganda. The situation with the land is complicated. As I mentioned, a legal judgment is still awaited to determine ownership from a case heard in 2016.

The sugar company running the plantation Hoima Sugar told us they regret the accident, As I mentioned, a legal judgment is still awaited to determine ownership from a case heard in 2016. The sugar company running the plantation, Hoima Sugar, told us they regret the accident, resulting in the death of Maharaja's daughter. They arranged the burial and paid for other expenses as well as her treatment in hospital. But they deny evicting people from their land, polluting the water supply to the camp or sexual harassment by the staff. They said there had been no complaints to the police, but if any such allegations was brought to the company's attention, they would investigate and take action. They told us they acquired the land from a Ugandan prince who had allowed people to grow crops there and that the land registry and the land ministry

confirmed he owned the title to it and had the right to sell it to them. Hoemeshuga paid compensation for crops in exchange for the people moving out. They say 142 families have agreed to do so after receiving individual payouts between £6 and almost up to £4,000 for the larger plots. The smaller amount was because the person who had recently arrived and it was not their main residence, they say. They also say that some people only arrived on the land after the sugar company took possession of it.

The company added that some of those who refused compensation are still on the land after the sugar company took possession of it. The company added that some of those who refused compensation are still on the land, and Heumer's sugar security only fired tear gas and bullets when they were attacked. With regards to the judgment about land ownership, Heumer said they had no idea why it was taking so long. Adjournments were requested by the other side and not by them. The women have been helped by an NGO called the National Association of Professional Environmentalists.

And we can talk to Sostin Nemanja now from the association. Sostin, what support have you been able to offer? Thank you. Good afternoon, listeners. We've been able to provide knowledge and skills to these women. We have also trained them in alternative life We've been able to provide knowledge and skills to these women. We have also trained them in alternative lives to be able to have something where they can make money. We have also ensured that we set up legal aid clinics where they can seek legal advice to do the land dispute

and also be able to institute a cluster action case. I apologise if some of our listeners are finding it hard to hear you because the line is slightly difficult, but I'll keep going and hope that it improves. You've had some funding from the UK. How important has that been? What's that been spent on? So the funding from the UK aid has taken us a distance.

I would say it has been spent on a number of things, which include training at least 480. And among those, 150 have been given business advocates, and Reza is one of the beneficiaries. So we've been trained in a number of options on kitchen gardening, beekeeping, craftsmaking and millet value addition. And also we've been able to set up the legal aid mobile clinics, which actually enabled people to seek help on land rights issues. issues and this assistance has been through mediation, litigation and also making referral to a number of legal aid home centers. 130 women have actually benefited from this legal advice and the efforts are still ongoing so that we can follow up on the case to conclusion. Then also we've been able to train at least 20 women who have been trained as, you know, community-based paralegals.

These actually in communication around issues of land rights in their respective communities. And Chijayo Camp is one of them that has a community-based paralegal. And then also in addition, we've been able to have land or key change agents whom we call land queens. These are queens with invisible tiaras and they're very helpful and resourceful because they are part of the women that we have trained as land queens. And they help in mobilizing groups. They also help in raising awareness in the community on where to seek help in the area of land issues or land matters. I think the line has slightly improved, so I'll just keep going. And thank you for letting us know what some of that's been spent on. Overseas aid, as I mentioned, is now being cut.

The Foreign Office says the seismic impact of the pandemic, of the COVID pandemic on our economy in the UK, has forced us to take tough but necessary decisions. But the UK aid budget this year will stand, will still to be more than £10 billion. They're working with suppliers and partners on what this means for individual programmes. And they also say that the UK is fully committed to advancing gender equality,

including leading globally on tackling gender-based violence and using the UK's G7 presidency to get world leaders to adopt the UK's ambitious target on girls' education. Is that in any way reassuring to you? Have you had those conversations about funding for your projects? I think for my project, we haven't actually been impacted by the cuts so far. But then it also means that not having, for example, UK aid a couple of years back, that means it would have happened. And if this project was absent,

then that means we would not be in a position to achieve what we have achieved so far or the distance we've walked, or even the achievements we have to, you know, get to in the next few months. I think my concern is also in the wider impact on women's rights organizations, especially those that are working on issues of climate change, environmental justice, and very complex issues of land rights,

just like from Mahesa. And also, now is not a time to do the cuts, because for me, in my opinion, I feel like this is a time that is actually worse because of the pandemic. We are seeing women-led communities extremely desperate. And when they are desperate, that means women's rights are actually on the high of being threatened.

And if they are really threatened and then we are not investing more in that, then that means there is a problem. OK, well, so where we will ideally... I was just about to say, we will continue, of course, to talk about those, the reality of those decisions. And it's good to hear your voice and and experience on the ground and it's a subject we have already discussed and we'll keep discussing and perhaps we'll talk again Susteen Namanya from the NGO National Association of Professional Environmentalists

there on that particular story but also the wider impact potentially of those cuts to women around the world in light of the pandemic. Well speaking speaking of the pandemic, over the past 15 months or so, you may have felt successive lockdowns have brought out different sides of you. In fact, you're getting in touch with us to talk about how perhaps you've been trying to mitigate that through dance and making yourself feel like you. But maybe it's also made you think about who you are and what you are when the social calendar is stripped away. Well, imagine taking that to the next level.

Two novels, one published tomorrow and one just out in paperback, explore the human impacts of environmental disaster through the lives of girls and women. And they both ask, what's really important to us? And what lasts when we think everything we think we need is stripped away? Kate Sawyer, author of The Stranding, her first novel is in East Anglia. And Diane Cook, whose book The New

Wilderness was shortlisted for the Booker Prize last year, has previously written short stories. And she's woken up very early for us today in New York. Diane, if I could start with you, set the scene for your pre-apocalyptic novel, as you call it. Hi, thanks for having me. The New Wilderness takes place in a future where there's only one wilderness area left and it follows a group of people who have to live off the land as nomadic hunter-gatherers and they're there as part of an experiment to see if people can live in nature without destroying it. And Kate, your book begins as a novel about relationships set in a recognisable present but ends up as an environmental disaster fiction

with your main character sheltering on a beach in the carcass of a whale? Yeah, so the starting point or the centre of the story is the apocalypse, but it goes backwards and forwards in two different timelines, one that's based now and one that's based in a future where everything has gone in a mass extinction event. And it is about contrast and comparison of those privileges we live with and perhaps what might be better if some things we had didn't exist.

And both of you putting girls and women at the heart of that. Diane, why was that important for you and what should we take away from what you're trying to say? in my mind they're the key to long-term survival they're the key to figuring um out how to live in the world that we're creating whether we know no matter what that looks like they are going to be the people who decide that in my mind well that's uh that's of course a view put forward but perhaps some would say more more aspirational they would they would say at this stage but maybe not in light of what we were just talking about. Kate, why was Women and Girls for you having to be at the heart of this? Well, I wanted to tell a story that had unsanitised female characters in it.

I wanted to talk about the female experience from different angles um and my main character is female but there are other characters in it including male characters that aren't uh white male characters and I think I wanted to talk about how resilience is something that's innate in women um and men but a human experience so but also as Diane said women do have this ability to procreate and so that talking about family and the way that that could move forward in a different type of world the hope that could remain there if for our children basically thinking ahead to this world that we are creating at the moment and what we're leaving them diane how do you think these sorts of um these sorts of books can be received and how we should perhaps view them with what we've learned through the pandemic um i think that they i think they're i mean they're apocalyptic books.

They sometimes might seem dark, but I always read them with some kind of hope. Because I think that that's the story that they're telling. They're telling about a future and how to live in that future, even when the future changes. changes um there's always an after in all of these stories that talk about you know bad things coming down the down the line um these stories are about the people who live with those changes and they they live and that's the point of it um and that's always really important to me when i am reading books like this do you think you're better equipped for this sort of future now you've you've looked into it thought through what comes after? Yeah probably yeah I mean I'm done I'm I'm ready I'm ready for it. You've been scavenging you've been you've been building you've been thinking about how to do this. Kate are you are you in a better place having thought through some

options here that most of us don't perhaps like to think about i think so i think that um apart from the you know how to build a fire and where to shelter i think also i'm aware that it's about um thinking about the people we love and those things that nourish us so a little bit of frivolity maybe mean, my character misses glitter and croissants. And I think that there is something there as well, that we should take joy in those little things and the celebration of things that bring us together. These human things that don't require money or houses or fancy clothes. There's a lot there that we have just at its basics. I mean, croissants, fair enough, but glitter, be gone.

It's terrible to clean up. Diane, do you think, though, with the, you know, I suppose on a serious note, but we're also talking about escapism, do you think there, climate change and anxieties around that, do you think fiction is a good place to explore our anxieties?

Yeah, I think it's one of the best places to explore our anxieties? Yeah, I think it's one of the best places to explore our anxieties. We can experiment and think, you know, go down a thought path that's, you know, negative or scary with, you know, no stakes. So with low stakes, fiction gives us a place to experiment with ideas and maybe come up with a path toward the future. That's how I've always thought about books like this, especially speculative books. It's a way of thinking. Where do you come in on that in the sense of where people are perhaps too scared to sometimes think about maybe fiction can help Kate yeah I think that I wrote this book when I was pregnant and I think that part of it was trying out the worst case scenario for myself and speaking to other authors that have written post-apocalyptic stuff that is part of the thing it's like what's the worst case scenario

and how could we deal with it and I think for a reader as well especially at this time where we're coming out of something that has been really scary and the future feels unsure as well that we want to know that there are is a strength within humans that could see us through much of what's coming but we still need to take responsibility for our actions that could make things better or worse. And I think it's that combination of hope and recognising we have responsibility that this sort of fiction really makes us think about. Well, it's something that people are obviously coming towards. And I think it's a very interesting category. It's interesting to bring you two together to have this sort of conversation. And here there's a lot of optimism as well.

You know, you see those things and you think, I'm not sure I can settle down for that. But there is obviously an appetite for it and optimism within there. Diane, thank you for getting up so early. The book is New Wilderness. Kate Sawyer, thank you to you, author of The Stranding, her first novel. Many of you getting in touch with us today, we were talking earlier about the decision to admit Laurel Hubbard, the first transgender athlete to compete at an Olympics after being selected for the New Zealand women's weightlifting team at Tokyo next month. Katie says, as the mother of a trans daughter, I listened with increasing frustration

to the debate on Laurel Hubbard's inclusion in the forthcoming Tokyo Olympics. I've watched my daughter be horrifically marginalised and traumatised by society's views, some nakedly open towards her. What are you suggesting? A specific trans athlete category? Great, that'll make my daughter and many others feel a valued member of society.

And yet Rosie has messaged in to say, what is wrong with having smaller sports categories for transgender women and transgender men to maintain inclusivity and remove the fair competition argument whilst also encouraging more transgender athlete representation? So some very different views there. Another message here from Kate says, I'm shocked by the discussion and comments on Women's Hour on this. Cases of successful athletes having genetic advantages are well documented, but they're not subjected to this level of scrutiny. Penalising trans women to the extent that they can't compete

would not be a progressive approach. How many times trans women are women? And we also had a question around how many trans men are trying to compete in the men's categories and also calls around more need for data. And I have to say, we've also had an enormous response around dancing. Michelle says, dancing in a field is pure joy. Went to pub in the park on Saturday night where Rudimental were playing.

Brilliant. The absolute joy and happiness of dancing with my 20-something daughters and crazy husband very nearly makes up for the long, long days of lockdown. Families who rave together stay together. There you go. Well, you can keep raving with me here on Woman's Hour. Thank you for your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Are you fed up with the news? As you know, I'm fed up. People are fed up. Next slide, please. The skewer.

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