Woman's Hour - DJ Kavita Varu, Former international footballer Professor Laura McAllister, 'Crown to Couture', Author Curtis Sittenfeld

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

Kavita Varu is a lawyer from Sheffield and a single mother of two who hit rock bottom just as we went into lockdown three years ago. She decided to learn how to DJ, bought some decks and taught herself. She started doing live sessions on social media, has since played in Ibiza and Amsterdam and recently won the Inspiring Indian Women She Inspires Rising Star award.Scientists believe that they have found a new way to administer a drug to prevent post-natal haemorrhage, which is thought to cost the lives of seventy thousand women a year globally. This makes it one of leading causes of maternal deaths worldwide. Tranexamic acid, which is used to control bleeding after giving birth, is usually given intravenously. But after conducting trials in Pakistan and Zambia, researchers at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine found that it worked well if injected into the body via a muscle.Academic and former international footballer Professor Laura McAllister has made history as the first Welsh woman to be elected to UEFA's executive committee. With a background in sports governance, Laura McAllister says she's on a mission to use her seat at the table to modernise the game and reflect the growth of the sport.Iconic red-carpet looks from Lizzo and Phoebe Waller-Bridge go on display alongside the historic frocks that inspired them this spring. Crown to Couture at Kensington Palace gives audiences the exclusive chance to see Lizzo's spectacular 2022 Met Gala dress and Phoebe Waller-Bridge's Monique Lhuillier gown from the 2019 Emmys alongside original Georgian couture like the Silver Tissue Gown worn at the court of Charles II. We hear from Polly Putnam the curator of the exhibition. Romantic Comedy is the new novel from bestselling author Curtis Sittenfeld. Sally, a successful comedy writer in her own right meets Noah a global celebrity and she is thrown into turmoil. Can a 'normal' person date a superstar? It seems to work for her male colleagues who regularly step out with accomplished, beautiful women, so why is Sally so plagued with insecurities? Curtis Sittenfeld joins Anita. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. They say it's never too late and DJ Kavita Varu is proof. Finding herself as a single mum at the age of 50 after an acrimonious divorce, she decided to learn to dj she bought herself some decks and fast forward three years she's played in abitha and amsterdam and won the inspiring indian women rising star award we'll be hearing her full story very soon but can you

relate have you got over a long-term relationship by trying something completely different gone way out of your comfort zone have you you done something life-changing, changed your job, moved somewhere else, fundamentally changed the way you live to recover after a breakup? Maybe you've bought a motorhome, moved country, got a drastic haircut, bought a pet, gone on an adventure,

climbed a mountain, started exercising. Let me know how you've moved on. You can get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. Thank you. Also on the programme, author Curtis Sittenfeld will be here to talk about her brilliant new book, A Romantic Comedy. And Professor Laura McAllister, the former Welsh footballer, has made the Women's Hour power list and also become the only woman on the UEFA executive committee, on the only place reserved for a woman. So if you'd like to get in touch with me about anything you hear on the programme, particularly how you've managed to get over a breakup, 84844 is the number to text. But first, scientists believe that they found a new way to administer a drug to prevent

postnatal hemorrhage, which is thought to cost the lives of 70,000 women a year globally. This makes it one of the leading causes of maternal deaths worldwide. Transexamic acid, which is used to control bleeding after giving birth, is usually given intravenously. But after conducting trials in Pakistan and Zambia, researchers at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine found that it worked well if injected into the body via a muscle. Well, Naomi Grimley is the BBC's global health correspondent, and she's been following the story. Morning, Naomi. So as I've just said, postnatal hemorrhage is one of the leading causes of maternal death worldwide.

But where are women most impacted by this? Well, it's definitely a problem disproportionately found in low- and middle-income countries. So the UN believes that there's a maternal death every two minutes in the world. So in total, around 290,000 per year. As you mentioned, a quarter of those come from severe uncontrolled bleeding during childbirth. And about 70% of maternal deaths are in sub-Saharan Africa, but also lower middle income countries in South Asia too. So what have these trials shown?

Well, it was interesting because they were taking this drug, transexamic acid, as you mentioned, which is usually given via an IV drip in a hospital, but they looked at different ways of delivering it. So one was to give it to the women in the trials orally via tablets and monitor the absorption that way. Another way was to inject it directly into a muscle. And of course, that's a much more democratic way, if you like, because it can just be carried by a midwife in a pack. And in fact, it turned out that that was as good as delivering it via a drip in a hospital. And so how does how it's administered make a difference to its effectiveness? Well, they were surprised that it actually was as effective if delivered via the muscles. So

it wasn't so good when taken as a tablet. It took about an hour to reach the levels that it would if it was normally given via an intravenous drip. But just this simple injection into the muscle was as good as it being administered in a hospital. And of course, that has massive implications, particularly for rural communities. In what way? How is this going to be significant, especially as you say, in those lower and middle income countries? Yeah, well, for example, quite a few of countries in Africa, midwives aren't allowed to give drugs intravenously.

So this idea that they could perhaps have a pack with them, that they can travel out, perhaps on the back of a motorbike to rural communities. Also think about war zones, because a lot of these maternal deaths happen in conflict zones in countries where there isn't access to proper hospitals.

And so I think that's why the researchers are quite excited by this. Are there more trials to come before this is made accessible? That's right, because the trials so far, which have been in Pakistan and Zambia, were relatively small. They only involved about 120 women who were deemed at risk of uncontrolled bleeding during childbirth. But the next stage of the trials, which will trials are successful as they expect them to be, WHO guidelines on this drug could be changed. And we could see, as you mentioned in your introduction, you know, a big impact on those 70,000 deaths that happen because of postpartum hemorrhages. Well, we'll be keeping an eye on this story then. Naomi Grimley, thank you very much for speaking to me.

That was the BBC's Global Health correspondent bringing us up to speed on those trials. Now on to my next item. In an occasional series, we've been speaking to women for whom things haven't gone to plan, but who've turned their lives around. Kavita Varu is a lawyer from Sheffield and a single mother of two who found herself needing to move on from an acrimonious divorce just as we went into lockdown three years ago. Well, Kavita decided to learn how to DJ, bought some decks and taught herself. She started doing live sessions on social media and has since played in venues from Ibiza to Amsterdam. And she recently won the Inspiring Indian Women, She Inspires Rising Star Award and joins me now to tell me all about it. First of all, congratulations. Tell me about the award. Oh, thank you so much for having me. Yes,

it's been an absolute surprise receiving this award. I never in a million years expected to receive anything, never mind being nominated. So it's been a complete shock. Well, it's an inspiring story and we're going to get all of it, but I'm going to take you back a little bit, if that's okay. You're a lawyer. Yes. And what was life like before lockdown? So life before lockdown was pretty difficult because I was going through a divorce, a really acrimonious divorce,

and it really crippled me, basically, you know, like any divorce does, you know, I was married for 24 years. And then I found myself just before lockdown, being a single parent with two children, having to manage a career, raising two children on my own, financially crippled, I was alone. And basically, I was feeling rock bottom and like you would in any situation like this it's uh it's not a pleasant thing to go through and um and I had to do something about it you know in that difficult situation and on top of that it's lockdown so you've gone through this horrendous experience and then the world shuts down but what what a music has always been part of your life. I read that

you used to sing at the temple. That was quite a big, important part of your life. Absolutely. So I spent most of my life singing Indian songs and hymns and prayers. I was brought up by my father, who's an Indian classical music teacher. So basically, when I was growing up, I listened to and played instruments, Indian instruments and sang at the temple, family bands. And when it came to special religious occasions at the temple, I used to sing all the folk songs like for Navratri, which is a dance festival that takes place in autumn. So I did all of that. And then suddenly after getting divorced and being isolated, I was cut off from my community, from the temple. Lockdown had hit. I was isolated with my children um there was a void in my family yeah and that was a real real hole yeah you were and that was and that was because of lockdown that you were isolated not not

for because of the divorce no no lockdown had completely cut everything off my family are in based in Leicester so I had no form of communication other than telephone or zoom and then basically you know I was trying to find something that would feel that fill that void up and of all the things in the world that you could have picked to do like knitting or whatever it might have been I'm going to read every book on my bookshelf that I've never read, you decided to become a DJ. Where did that come from? I mean, as a fellow music lover and DJ, I'm so into this, but yeah, what happened? So basically, most people in lockdown bought dogs, I bought decks. And I thought, right, and my 50th birthday party got cancelled in April. Lockdown had just started in March 2020.

Boris just announced that. And I said to my dad, dad, with your blessings, please, can I just leave Indian music and do like a house and disco set, you know, for my birthday and do a live stream? He goes, better do that. You've got my blessings. I love how you have to get your dad's permission to do it. I love that. So he was full swing, you know, in front of all this. And he said to me, do it, Beta, and do a live stream. We'll watch you from Facebook. And I did an invitation to my family, but I did it on a public setting on Facebook.

And I invited everybody to bring a bottle and rejoice this fantastic milestone that I was going to hit and and I tuned in uh and and did a live broadcast with some DJ decks that I bought literally months before and I said I'm going to play some Ibiza anthems and will you watch me and and just be part of my party how did you know what records play obviously this is your vibe is that these are this is the music you grew up listening to or you just wanted to try something different no so at university in Nottingham um I was a bit of a sort of a dance club um fanatic and I used to love listening to k-class and things like that the music in the 90s

I already had that inside me yeah And I just thought, right, these are the tracks I'm going to play. And Ibiza was on my bucket list of things to do on my 50th birthday. And I just played some nostalgic songs, you know. Shall we have a burst of a song that's quite meaningful for you? Let's do it. And that's the Shapeshifters' Lola theme. What does that tune mean to you? Wow, that song, I played so much over lockdown when I was streaming. It means a lot, basically. The lyrics in this track really resonate with me. It basically means that I was in a situation where I didn't want to be in, but I turned my life

around. I did something, I bought something that I found so laughing, the music, and I just resonate with that track so much. And it also resonates with other people when I played it to the community, because I ended up having a global following in terms of people who watch my live streams, and it brought happiness and joy to everybody else. Which is what we were all searching for, and we still are. So it started with your family, started on your 50th birthday how do people catch on to this so basically I think what happened is that people had just tuned in to watch what I was doing I was probably making a you know a little a gimmick of it at the time but then suddenly it just blew up because the kids were watching it on

the other laptop and said mum you've got about 10 people watching. Half an hour later, there was 50. Then 90 people ended up watching me. And then the audience grew and grew and grew. And then I loved it so much. I streamed every Friday called Funky Fridays on all platforms. And then the community just grew from not only Sheffield, UK and then worldwide. And then you've gone on to actually play venues. Tell me about that. Yes, it's just mind-blowing, actually. I never thought in a million years that this would happen to me. So I ended up going to Ibiza, and then I made some connections there, and then that went on to lead to gigs at the Paradiso Art Hotel,

the Beach Bay Bar, 528. I played with the Balearic legend Alfredo and Paco Fernandez, which was fantastic. Kavita, was this your first time in Ibiza after your divorce at the age of 50? I feel like you've been, like the way you're talking about all of this now, it's like you were destined to do this. So Ibiza was always on your list of things to do? It was on my list to do, but it made it more realistic because I'd started DJing. And I thought, I need to find myself. I need to go to this island, which is like haunting me at the back of my mind.

So I went literally without insurance, one-way ticket, didn't even book a return flight. And I said to mom, I've got to go and do this. So I went and the island was quite quiet because obviously it wasn't the lockdown position it was in. And then I just started like, you know, went to different places, hide a car, toured around the island, discovered it, made some fantastic connections and it was just brilliant. And that would never have happened if you were still married? Never, never in a million years. Never, never, never. I felt that my wings were clipped whilst I was married. But now this is the true me. My wings have unclipped. This is me. This is what I do. I want to be, give a

positive inspiration through music. I feel the music and the public feel the music that I play. And it's just fantastic. It's a win-win. What's the reaction like from the crowd? Oh, they absolutely love it. I get messages all the time from people, even little kids who follow me and they watch my live streams, they watch shout outs, even from like men and women from the music profession and from the public. It's just been absolutely amazing. Well, we're getting lots of people getting in touch with the programme about things that they've done post-breakup.

Someone's just messaged in to say, Kavita is one in a million and a true inspiration. There you go, Kavita. Someone has messaged in to say, I started paramedic training at 54 after my divorce from a 22-year marriage, loving life right now. One single mother to another, she's a legend. Someone else has just messaged.

Anita, I came to England from New Delhi to stay with my brother after an acrimonious divorce in 1984. While in Barcelona on holiday, I met an English bloke, and that was it. We got married, and I've lived in London ever since. So life can completely change. What do your kids make of your new life? Well, I'd hit 50. So they obviously thought there was something wrong with mum because she's going through the menopause.

But actually, they've rejoiced it all. They love it. They absolutely support me. They're 100 percent behind me. And last summer, I took them to Ibiza and they were absolutely thrilled because I took them to all the big bars that were out there at the O Beach and all the other places at Cafe Mambo. And they absolutely had a blast. I'm looking at you and there's absolute joy radiating from you. And I know everyone can hear it in your voice and I can see it in your eyes. How different were you before to who you are now? Like just how much have you changed?

Because I can't imagine that this person didn't exist before. I think I was, my personality was a bit more conservative. You know, I toed the line because I was an Indian woman. I was respectful because both my parents are Indian and my in-laws were Indian too. So, you know, it wasn't the dumb thing to be gallivanting in and out of clubs and DJing, you know. So the religious aspect was the line that I took whilst I was married, you know, and I felt that that was the right thing to do at the right moment in that part of my life. But now that I'm single, I'm divorced, you know, I don't have those commitments to, you know, be towards the religious side.

I feel that now I can be me. This is me. Hundred percent me. And what about the day job? Oh, the day job is going so well, too. And what about the day? What about all your fellow colleagues, the lawyers? What do they think about all of this? Oh, my God. It was just amazing to tell them the good news. And they were absolutely 100% so delighted and proud of me. And they couldn't believe it.

They thought that, you know, is this Kavita from Legal doing this? And you have to stand on a box to DJ, Kavita. I do. And that's the only thing that I have to have to have props for me the the DJ decks are so high I'm not very tall but I make how I am and so sometimes there's crates and all sorts of gadgets there you know to lift and prop me up so what's next well oh my god so many great things are happening i've got amazing gigs lined up i'm playing at a fantastic festival called flashback in manchester which has got a minimum of 8 000 people attending i've got gigs locally to attend with steelyard and and obviously

um locally with sheffield clubbers reunion the lead. The Leadmill, as you know, has been going strength to strength. So I've been so grateful that I've been asked to come back again for the fifth time with Sheffield Clubbers' Reunion. And then Ibiza's coming up with the Bay Beach Bar and Paradiso. So exciting times. Kavita, I might have to come and see you play. I think the Woman's Hour office outing to come and see you play is in order. I'm just making that public.

What an inspiration you are. What do you think about when you think about the old Kavita who was towing the line, being the dutiful daughter, the dutiful daughter-in-law, doing everything for everyone else when you think back to her? Oh, I feel that, you you know what that was my destiny I had to go through that in order to find my path now does that make sense yeah you know sometimes you have to go through certain situations before you end up discovering yourself I didn't know this

was ever going to happen to me in my life but I I'm so glad it did. It's the best thing that's happened. Wow. You've boosted us all this morning. What an inspiration. Kavita Varu, DJ Kavita Varu. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. So many of you getting in touch about this. Kavita at 50, I did the same. And Lola's theme is my fave. 63 and still going with my crew mind the gap in North London Nikki from Buck says when I split from my ex-husband 20 years ago he said I'd never cope

not long after I changed career to be there for my children ran a marathon and enrolled on a degree course since then I've learned to drive steam locomotives go Nikki Anita two years ago I split from my partner after our relationship was becoming damaging I sold my house in an affluent area bought a house in beautiful Norfolk

where I grew up and finally landed a job I love as a librarian at age 57 keep your inspirational stories of life changing events how you've managed

to get over a breakup 84844 keep them coming. That's the text number or you can email me via the website. Now, we all know how far-reaching the impact of football can be. This week alone, we've heard about how the England women's team is changing its kit to blue following concerns about wearing white during their periods.

Women up and down the country are changing the game literally and figuratively. But what happens when you're the designated woman at the most powerful table in European football governance? As it stands, there is one reserved place for a woman on the UEFA Executive Committee out of 20 positions. Following an election in Lisbon yesterday, that woman will be former Welsh international Professor Laura McAllister.

She's also one of the two vice presidents, the first ever woman to be in that role. Well, Laura is also one of the women named on this year's Woman's Hour Power List and she joins me now. Very good morning. Huge congratulations on the appointment. How does it feel, Laura?

Well, bora da, good morning. Thank you very much, Anita. Bora da to you too. It feels wonderful, as you can imagine. I feel very, very proud for the whole of the Welsh nation, really, because I've been steeped in Welsh football since I was a small child, you know, kicking a ball in my hometown. And then I've come through the elite pathway, obviously, to represent my country and captain my country. And then I've come through the elite pathway, obviously to represent my country and captain my country.

And then I've been involved in the governance of sports. It feels a very proud moment for all of us in Wales who work so hard to get our small nation recognised globally. So I think it's a tribute to everyone, you know, not just the work I've put in. So on the practicalities of the role then, what does it mean exactly? What kind of work will you be doing?

Well, it's a board member role. Obviously, UEFA is the supreme governing body of football across Europe for the 55 national associations or countries that operate football in the continent. board that looks after the strategic decisions relating to everything from the men's European Championships to the women's Euros, which, as you mentioned, were held so successfully in England last year with a great, great triumph for the Lionesses, of course, to the Women's Champions League, to the Men's Champions League, to grassroots, to broadcast rights, to sponsorship, commercial and governance. And, you know, I mean, what I hope to bring, obviously, is my experience in the game, not just in the women's game, but in football more generally and in sports governance more widely. And also my experience as an academic who specialises in political governance and board governance,

because I think, you know, there's a zeitgeist now in UEFA for change and diversification. And I hope as one of the vice presidents, I can be an active contributor to that agenda. Yeah, because as I mentioned in the opener, you have got this, you're one of the two vice presidents of the executive committee as well.

The first ever woman to have that position. So what power does that give you? Well, if I'm being really truthful, I don't know. This was a bit of a surprise yesterday because clearly I was uncontested for the position on UEFA Exco. So I was expecting to be elected yesterday and that proved to be the case. But then immediately after the election, the president, Alexander Sheffrin, took me aside and said he wanted to appoint me as one of the vice presidents. And, you know, that was his great surprise, obviously a fabulous honour, you know, because again, it's the first time anybody from Wales

has been in that position, the first time any woman, you know, anywhere in Europe. So I'm very proud for everyone here. But I don't really know if I'm being really honest. I suspect, you know, there will be a greater leadership role over some of the key strategic decisions that are taken in European football. But, you know, I'm really excited and looking forward to that. You know, I'm not new to this game. You know, I've sat on boards and I've chaired boards before.

And my life is one that's been lived through football. So I'll know as much, if not more, than anyone around that table about the game. So, you know, I'm quietly confident, but I'm going to have to learn on the job, obviously, because I'm the new kid on the block. Sure. But you have, Laura, a seat at the table. So I'm intrigued to know what your manifesto is. Where do you want to be in a year from now, let's say? What do you want to achieve?

Yeah, well, look, Anita, this isn't about me. I keep saying this, you know, I'm a team player. And, you know, anybody who's come through sport would say the same. But it's about my contribution to the team effort to um advance football in europe and things are going well let's let's make no mistake you know we've seen you know um five times the investment in in the women's euros than in the men's euros we've got a minimum standards agreements for the national team players which means things like maternity leave is uh maternity rights are properly protected for the first time. But we know we've got more work to do in the women's game to professionalise it in every respect and to ensure that every child,

whether that whether that girl is in Armenia or Andorra or in Wales or England or Scotland, has an opportunity to play. But but I don't see my role as being purely around the women's game. You know, I've worked in grassroots football and elite football here in Wales, and I hope I can make an active contribution beyond that. But if you're asking where are we going, you know, I think I think we're going to a more diverse structure of governance. I don't think Alexander Sheffrin would have asked me to be vice president unless he was personally committed to this agenda. I've been working on a gender equality working group with UEFA, and I hope the recommendations of that will be enacted and we can see the governance of the game better reflecting the people who play it.

Do you think the quota of women should be higher? At the moment, it's just a position of one that's been there since 2015. Yes, indeed. I mean, look, that's the very issue we've been considering with the gender equality working group. And there are very strong arguments, of course, for increasing the number of women on the board because women's football, for a start, is very well established

and there's huge headroom for further growth. Secondly, I think the governance of the game should reflect the people who are involved in it, whether that's fans watching it or referees, officials, volunteers or players. And it doesn't at the moment. But, you know, none of this, none of this, I think, is without its supporters on UEFA Exco, including the president. that this has to be a moment for European football where we modernise, we diversify and we get a governance structure that looks more like the game and is more in tune with modern boards.

So I'm optimistic that that will happen for sure. Yeah, do you think there are concerns about how it does get to the next level when it comes to gender equality? Well, that's precisely the work that we've undertaken with the working group on this area and it's been very thorough. There have been some excellent contributions from across Europe, because I think people recognises that the game has to move on. The game has to be more inclusive in its governance structure. So I feel we're pushing an open

door in that regard. And it helps, obviously, that, you know, I've worked in this area before and, you know, I'll certainly try and articulate some of the strong rationale there is for diversifying UEFA's governance. And you are highly qualified to be at that table. You're absolutely going to own it. We can hear it and we know it. But how? How are you going to make sure that you leave? You know, it's difficult being the only person in the room. Yeah, of course it is. And I was chatting to people about this last night. You know, I've been the only woman on boards before, but it seems like a long time ago, you know, and when I started my post-playing career, you know, I was often the only woman in the room and I know what the

difficulties are there, but you know, I'm a really... What are those difficulties? Well, you know, getting one's voice heard, having things repeated by others in the room that have already been said by a woman, you know, infiltrating the kind of culture of operation around meetings. So, you know, I'm not unfamiliar with that, but there are advantages to, you know, let's not let's not overlook those. You know, the fact that I'm from football and I've kept in my country and I've governed sport here in Wales is an advantage. And I hope that's brought me a respect and a profile profile. But I know I don't know it all. You know, I'm coming into a big organisation as the new kid on the Brock, so I'll tread carefully.

But, you know, I have to say, Anita, you know, I think this is a real reflection of where we are in Welsh football too. We're very, very committed to gender equality and indeed all equalities in Wales. And the fact that we've got women working at every level, championing the rights of the game to be accessible to all is well reflected across Europe. And I think actually has contributed to me getting this position.

Now, tonight, England's Lionesses are playing Brazil at Wembley for the first time in blue shorts, as I mentioned in my intro. This, as players spoke out about the concerns of playing during their periods. I'm wondering what your reaction is to the news and is this an example of the power that sport can have? Yeah, for sure. Look, this is about players' voices and in the past, women players' voices haven't been heard. And I think that goes back to the minimum standards framework that we're all talking about in Europe at the moment, which is really fundamental that we listen to players and officials and coaches and volunteers who are female, because the game has been set up historically for men and by men. But that's changing. You know, we now need to think at this moment how the women's game might go down a slightly different path to the men's game.

And dare I say it, a better path because there are different attitudes and values and principles attached to the women's game, which I think the men's game could benefit from. It doesn't weaken the women's game, by the way, it strengthens it. So yes, of course, things like the shorts are critical, but so are really significant issues like maternity leave and childcare provision for professional players. So are getting more broadcasters who are female. So is centralising of broadcast rights for the Women's Champions League. In all of this, big attendances. I mean, I was due to be at Wembley tonight,

but you'll understand that we've got a game in Wales. We're a Wales player in Northern Ireland. And I want to celebrate with my friends and teammates here in Wales. But the fact that we'll have a crowd of 7,000 plus for a friendly game here in Wales with a nation of 3 million people is significant as well. So the game is growing. We need to now give it that big propulsion, really, to get it to the next stage. And I'm confident we can do that.

Laura, I love how you say you want to celebrate because you feel Wales are going to win that game, do you? Oh, I'm sure Wales are going to win that game. But I mean, it's more about celebrating, you know, the journey we've been on for everyone in Wales. Of course. Now, it'd be remiss of me not to mention this year's Women's Hour Power List. Massive congratulations on being named. How did you feel when you heard the news? Oh, look, it's a tremendous honour. You know, I'm in very august company there and it's a real privilege to share that list with so many fantastic women, you know, who are doing great work at elite and grassroots professional amateur level. And yeah, very, very proud. So, yes, a big diolch yn fawr congratulations on the job. We look forward to seeing what you do in your new role. Thank you, Laura. Thank you. Well, you can listen to the reveal of The Woman's Hour Powerless live from the radio

theatre if you missed it by looking for the episode for last Tuesday on BBC Sounds or to watch the reveal, go to The Woman's Hour webpage. So many of you getting in touch about how you've got over your breakups. At 74, I left a 42 year marriage, retrained as a bereavement counselor. And at 78, I am happy and fulfilled.

Someone else saying, hi, I went through a sudden and horrible breakup last year when my wife of eight years left. Suddenly when our daughter was five months old, less than a year on, I've managed to buy my first house, start a new job and been lucky enough to have the most incredible support for my family and friends.

I've never felt more confident, accomplished and proud of what I've achieved. And my baby girl is the biggest motivator of all. And Tabitha says during lockdown, my 20 year relationship ended. Two years later, I finally moved out. This year, I'll start my master's in arts psychotherapy. It's been a long-held dream, and I needed the shift in the relationship in order to apply and get my place on the course. Onwards and upwards.

Yes, Tabitha, onwards and upwards indeed. On to my next guest. Curtis Sittenfeld writes clever novels about women's lives. Rodham was a counterfactual novel about what might have happened if Hilary Rodham had not married Bill. American Wife played with the life of Laura Bush and looked at the intersections of the personal and the political in her new book, Romantic Comedy.

It's just as funny, fizzy, about the serious issue of falling in love. And Curtis joins me now from New York for her first UK broadcast interview about the new book. Very good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour, Curtis. I thoroughly enjoyed this book. You had me gripped from beginning to end. So thank you for that. Let's get straight into it. Tell me about your romantic leads, Sally and Noah. Who are they? well sally uh is in they're both in their late 30s sally works at a late night sketch comedy show that bears some resemblance to saturday night live uh she's

professionally successful and confident and more than she's unhappy romantically she She's just sort of settled or kind of taken herself out of the romantic equation. And she was divorced years ago, like had a marriage and divorce in her early 20s. And meanwhile, Noah is a very handsome, successful, famous, maybe cheesy or corny pop singer who's a guest host on the show. Yeah, the dating scene in New York is not sold to me through this book, I have to say. Ha, well, it's funny. I mean, I neither am single nor live in New York. But I'm not.

I mean, she has met a guy on an app and she hangs out with him and she doesn't. I mean, I think she treats him the way some people treat like mediocre pizza like it suffices for what she what she needs um yeah i think the dating scene in america has always been fascinating to us brits because you've sort of dating is a thing it's changing here now the culture of it because people because of with apps people sort of see various people but the whole dating you seem to have just been ahead of the game well I don't know if that's the right way of putting it just a different way of dating and having various people that you go and see in the states as opposed to

what we do here oh that's that's interesting I don't know that I yeah how how is it different there well people what do people do instead yeah no they no, they just, I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm just opening a whole other minefield here, but I guess you just go and see one person rather than you have many options. Oh, interesting. But that is changing. That has changed within one generation. Let's get back to the book.

Sally works hard and she has great friends, but love is just, eludes her. And then working on this uh this this show that's based on saturday night live which is an american institution why did you want to set it there what does that what does snl mean to you well um sally mentions in the book that she and the sort of stand-in show which is called the night owls are the same age and they were born in 1981 saturday night live and i were both born in 1975. So it's been sort of a feature of my entire life. I've watched it more and less avidly or consistently. But, you know, it just it does

so many things, but it's very clever and funny. And when you're when you're younger, you think, oh, that's what it is to be an adult. And that And they're so irreverent. And I don't even know what they're making fun of, but it's intriguing. And then as you get older, I think you have more of an appreciation for how pointed the political commentary is, although it can still be just very purely silly. But, you know, it's like, obviously, sketches and monologues and comedians and musical acts. And even before, well before the internet existed, it was able to take pop culture and kind of give it back to us or take political culture and kind of help us explain what certain things mean or give voice to our own feeling that like those things are ridiculous. So and it's just again, it's it's fun, too.

Yeah, absolutely. Explain what the Danny Horst rule is. This is the sketch that Sally comes up with for for Noah. Tell us about it. So Sally notices that men from the show, cast members and writers date women who are guests on the show who are super famous, super gorgeous, super successful celebrities, women at the top of their game. But female writers on the show do not date super hot male celebrities. And so she writes a sketch making fun of how this would never happen.

And of course, that's the week that the smoking hot pop singer, Noah Brewster, is a guest. It is perfect. It's the perfect romantic comedy. It's pure fantasy. And as I was reading it, I was like, I wonder if this is, is this Curtis's fantasy? You're the big SNL fan.

I mean, we all had posters of the fame, whoever our pop star of choice was when we were kids. And it was the dream that they were going to somehow pick you for me, Curtis. It was New Kids on the Block. You know, they were going to find me in my little box bedroom in Bradford and whisk me away. And I love it. Did it happen? Yeah, it's going to happen.

Are you still waiting? Still waiting. So was this you writing, you know, the fantasy? I mean, I certainly have. From most of my life, I enjoy celebrity gossip. And I certainly, when I was younger, I mean, so if I was born in 1975, I think my early celebrity crushes, I found young Rob Lowe to be very handsome, the actor, young Patrick Swayze. I saw Dirty Dancing at a very formative age. I'm not sure, singer-wise, if I ever, you know, there was anyone.

I mean, new kids on the block were cute, actually. Thanks. Didn't leave me hanging there. I just want to affirm your taste. Thank you. Now, this is a romance riven with insecurities and misunderstandings, and you capture the insecurities so well on both sides. Noah's hair, reading about yourself on social media, saying the wrong thing. But Sally in particular, she is outwardly so together.

But I mean, I guess this is why she's so relatable. She is so insecure about who she is. You know, I think that that that inconsistency or still having areas where we're very insecure as adults is what makes us human. And to me, it's very endearing that I think almost nobody is totally competent and confident in all areas. And it could be like some person who's very good at their job and then like cries when they have to go to the dentist or can't drive on the highway or you know what I mean? Like it's not always romance that makes people nervous. Although I think romance does make a lot of you, you know, just flirting and having a crush and wondering if the other person likes you and being vulnerable and exposing your body potentially.

So to me, it's not strange at all that she's professionally successful and personally not so different from a churned-up 13-year-old when it comes to the person she's romantically interested in. And then so they meet on this comedy sketch show that he's presenting, she's a writer for and then COVID hits, and they go into lockdown. And you have this beautiful courtship by email that is really moving. How was that to write? How was it taking yourself back to that very weird time that we all live through? I mean, I think the COVID aspect, you know, was, it was on the one hand, sobering, certainly, like, obviously, COVID has been very dark and very hard. I think I also

felt like, in a way, including COVID and allowing them to connect during that time and showing them getting through it felt like an act of optimism instead of just sidestepping it. And it also, it felt like it was sort of plausibly realistic for the plot that, you know, they had had this encounter, they'd had chemistry. Sally ends up at a sort of pivotal moment being kind of rude to Noah, self-sabotaging. Their conversation goes off the rails and two years pass. And I do think COVID was this moment of sort of things being quiet and a lot of us reflecting on our lives. I mean, unfortunately, most of us did not then end up dating pop stars,

but some of us did make certain changes. This wasn't the book that you started out writing, was it? You were 100 pages into a very different book. What happened? So in 2020, my book Rodham came out, my sort of counterfactual story of Hillary Clinton. And people would say to me, you know, what are you going to write next? And this is obviously the very early months of the pandemic. And I would say I want to write something short and fun. And I started writing this other book and I actually still think it's, you know, an interesting topic, but it was not short and not fun.

And, and I think I just, I had, I sort of set it aside and thought what would be almost guaranteed to be a fun, happy, fizzy, fictional world to live in and to, you know, to sort of exist in every day while I write. And it just felt like putting together comedy and people falling in love. It was like, like, if I wasn't going to be happy writing that, then there was no hope. And it is really funny, the comedy, and it's really good. I especially enjoyed all the stuff at the beginning when you're

writing how to actually make a sketch show funny. Thank you. I mean, I did a ton of research. How much research did you have to do into that? Well, I did an enormous amount of research, but it was by far the most fun research I've ever done. And I actually like doing research for fiction because I feel like you sort of, you don't know what you don't know about a topic. But I read memoirs by current and former snl cast members i um listened to podcasts where

there's just you know there's like a million podcasts where it's one comedian interviewing another comedian and sometimes one of them sometimes both of them were on saturday night live there's actually little almost like mini documentary videos that saturday night live itself makes that say like this is how the makeup department works. And this is how we build sets. And they are so talented, like in some ways, those are the unsung heroes who make prosthetic noses with like, you know, like 12 hours notice, or, you know, do these incredible sets that are just like the background, but but are such an act of artistry in themselves. It is definitely a love letter to SNL, which you can tell you enjoyed writing that. I mean, the whole thing is just a joy to read.

I feel like we need to get back to the love story. So lockdown happens. They met, then two years later, lockdown happens. They're emailing each other. And then he invites her to come and stay with him in LA. At his fancy celebrity mansion mansion where he's alone, except for a little bit of household help. It's the dream. Yes, he he basically says, you know, come on out. One of the reasons that it was fun to write their emails to each other was I felt like I was letting the reader have the experience they were having of sort of directly reading them and thinking, is this sentence flirty or not flirty?

Like, is it is it just someone being friendly and social or are we kind of, you know, like having a vibe here? And so when she goes out, she's she's in kansas city missouri in the middle of the country it's like a long full two-day drive and she decides to drive to get he offers her his private plane and she feels like that's too fraud or you know weird he doesn't he doesn't own a private plane but he offers to charter one for her um and so she drives out alone and she isn't sure if she's driving to like basically have sex with this very attractive and also like kind and thoughtful, charming man. Or if he's kind of lonely and he's almost saying like, celebrity who lives in a mansion and has the ability to charter planes. Yeah, so I'm not. It's so funny. I feel very confused about like what is and isn't a spoiler in my own book. But then if anyone gets a spoiler, I mean, there is. But yes, you're I mean, you're completely right that that Sally, like she's sort of I mean, again, she gets in her own way and she self sabotages and she has all these theories about the world, a lot of which are probably largely true as patterns about what kind of man dates a woman like her doesn't date a woman like her but in the in the face of like a one-on-one encounter all those theories and so-called rules totally crumble as they do for all of us i mean we can

have a theory of like this is what this person's like who went to such and such kind of school or this is what a person in this profession is like and then you meet an individual person like that and it's kind of like oh maybe they're completely different than my preconceived notion. So she, I think, sort of feels like either like you couldn't like me or you like me, but it's just because you're bored during COVID. And I'm kind of almost like, you know, a little tap dancing, whatever puppy or something. And then something more serious happens. And in some ways, Noah is better equipped to handle it than she is. How much fun did you have writing this? I had an enormous amount of fun.

It just always felt like the book kind of welcomed me into it. And I was always glad to return to it. And I'm certainly, I'm not like, writing is a nonstop pleasure. I mean, largely it's a pleasure, but sometimes I'm not in the mood. But I was always in the mood to exist in this world of like romance and fun and flirting. And you obviously love the subject of First Ladies because you've written about Laura Bush and Hillary Clinton. You're going to return to that subject? I might.

I mean, it's kind of, I mean, it's sad and for a very serious reason how politically divided the US is. And I don't know, it makes it makes politics feel like such a fraught topic. But I mean, also a very important topic for the same reason. Curtis, it's been a pleasure speaking to you. Congratulations on the book. I absolutely loved it. Curtis Sittenfeld and the book is called Romantic Comedy and it's out now. Thank you.

Now, iconic red carpet gowns worn by Beyonce Lizzo and Phoebe Waller-Bridge meet courtly Georgian glamour in a new blockbuster exhibition at Kensington Palace. Show-stopping looks from the court of Charles II are on display alongside dresses like the billowing pink Oscar de la Renta gown worn by Billie Eilish at the Met Gala in 2021. One of the curators responsible for the show, Polly Putnam from Historical Royal Palaces, is here to tell us the Georgian court was the original red carpet. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Polly. Thank you so much for having me.

Tell us where the idea for this exhibition came from. Well, it was the Tuesday after the first Monday in May in 2018. Very good. So that's obviously the day after the Met Gala. Yeah. So you have all that press about all the dresses. And there happened to be an exhibition meeting that day. And I kind of said sort of quite blithely, do you know what, this is rather like the Georgian court court and um so actually everyone thought it was like yeah it is and the reason for this is that you have this obvious visual connection so the georgian dresses were massive and obviously red carpet dresses especially for

the met gala are massive as well so and yeah let's get into this so what what other parallels parallels are there i love that you had a meeting at the palace and this was what everybody thought oh just like the georgian court this tells us a lot about the uh the interests of everybody sitting around that table um apart from billowing big billowing dresses what are the other parallels oh there are so so many um sort of and what was really interesting is that kind of these parallels were more and more natural the more and more research we did. So one of my favorites is that Princess Augusta, George III's mother, in 1742, she rented £100,000 worth of jewels, which is just an astonishing amount of money. But she didn't have a hire fee. She literally just had to turn up and tell everyone where she got them from.

So that's just like on the red carpet where someone wears Cartier or whatever brand and they just have to say, I'm wearing this brand on the red carpet. Why would she have had to do that in the Georgian court? What benefit to her was there hiring these fabulous diamonds? Well, interestingly, the Hanoverians didn't have that much money and Augusta was very into her diamonds. There are lots of bills for them. And so she could have something especially glam to make a really good court appearance.

And what would that do for her in the royal court? So the English royal court was known to be especially blingy. Diamonds were everything. Sort of when foreigners visited the English royal court, it was all about the diamonds. And why was it important for a woman to stand out? sort of when foreigners visited the English royal court, it was all about the diamonds. And why was it important for a woman to stand out? So actually, the Georgian court was one of the biggest marriage markets out there. And so a good court appearance could get you a good husband and make a good marriage. And this was equally true

for men. So if you were, as Jane Austen says, a man in possession of good fortune and wonderful wife, one of the best things you could do is turn up at court. And what about, there's the original celebrity stylist as well, Frances Abington. Tell me about Frances Abington. Oh my goodness, I love her. She was one of the most famous actresses in her day. You read her correspondence and she's such a diva. She's wonderful. But she was known as much for her fashion as she was for her amazing comic performances. And so if the court is the red carpet, the theatre was the runway. So you would go to the theatre essentially to watch the play, but more to see the fashion. And Frances Abington was the best at it. And she made about £1,500 a year advising women what to wear. And this is because she was so well-known. So she appeared as a maid in a play and she wore a little lace cap.

And then suddenly that all appeared in shops. And there are milliners in London with Abington caps for sale. So she was the most fashionable of the actresses. And so you'd want advice from her. And what was she advising women to wear? I think one of the things, you've got this incredible portrait by Joshua Reynolds and she's wearing these little black ribbons on her wrists and in lots of her plays there's sort of the descriptions of it say that she's wearing morning ribbons and so I think these little

black ribbons which look so wonderful in the portrait might have been something that she advised them on. So there's quite a few similarities then between contemporary influencer culture and the Georgian court. I think so as well. So many of the people who attended courts were poets. They'd also write snide little gossipy things in newspapers, which were kind of read around in sort of court circles. So everyone would report and would know what would wear. This is actually the era that the fashion press is born. And so kind of you have newspapers and they'd have long descriptions of what everyone would wore.

And sort of getting dressed and getting dressed really well was really, really important because the worst thing you could be, and there are some people who we know had this description of them quite plain oh no which i mean it's just so english and damning isn't it well we still have these silly best dressed and worst dressed lists don't we is that similar yeah there's um less worse dressed now i think that's changed but there are certainly best dressed and actually kind of best dressed dress we like. It's the worst dress I'm not too keen on.

Yeah, that can be very, very cruel. And I think what's really interesting and one of the things that I wanted to and what has changed is that in all the commentary that you get in the Georgian Royal Court, there isn't a commentary on sort of someone being fat or like they're not sort of making the same kind of body shaming things. It's all about the dress. And actually, for me, that was kind of quite striking. And one of the reasons why I really wanted to include a 1750s corset, which is about the size 22. And so we sort of think in history that everyone's teeny tiny. But actually, that's really not the case at all. So the people were all different shapes and sizes across history. That is really interesting.

So, I mean, you must have had so much fun pulling this exhibition together did you get to pick whatever dresses you wanted for this is dresses from throughout history from the georgian court but also these modern day fabulous creations that are worn at the met gala my co-curator and i claudia acott williams um we would be up all night texting each other on the nights of the oscars going do you want this one do you want this one um who do you think do you think that one would do is that kind of looking georgian is this like doing what we wanted to do i cannot wait to come and see this because i'm really desperately want to see in the flesh beyonce's gold grammy awards dress from 2017 by Peter Dundas. Describe it. Oh, it's absolutely wonderful. We've paired it with the original headdress that she wore with it,

which just kind of creates this gorgeous halo all over her head. And one of the things that doesn't come across in the pictures that you see is actually the exquisite craftsmanship so it's just embroidered so beautifully with so many beads and just sort of hangs so beautifully on her and she wore it when she was pregnant and it's just sort of such a beautiful and powerful piece and it's so wonderful to have it on display in the palace yeah it's spectacular she looks like a goddess and i mean she's a goddess anyway but in that she just really epitomized you know godlike status um what's particularly special about having uh Charles Deacon's design for Billy Porter's outfit at the 2020 Oscars in the exhibition oh my goodness this is wonderful so um we actually took Sam around the palace um way back in 2019 and he was so thrilled and so

impressed with the palace and he was like, this is Billy's next look. So he approached Charles Deacon. And then they based a look based on the cupola room at Kensington Palace. So it's full circle, really? Yes. So I think it's just one of these things where that kind of that court dress was so powerful because it had to be powerful. Because he had to make a statement that it's so obvious that designers are going to go back and look at these palaces, look at these places. And so when you have the greatest stage for sartorial displays, the red carpet, the greatest stage was the Royal Court. So I think it's quite natural for designers

to kind of look back to that era. And this exhibition is being held in the state rooms. Yes. What's wonderful is what we've done throughout the exhibition is we've kind of themed it around the functions of the rooms in the palace. So in the room the cupola room, sorry the council chamber which was the political heart of the palace

we talk about politics on the red carpet. In the great assembly room, the king's gallery where this was the place to be seen and see people, this is our red carpet. so you've got this wonderful red room with a red carpet on with some of the most famous dresses on the red carpet we'll be coming to see it very soon Polly Putnam thank you for that that was so interesting um

it's called Crown to Couture it opens today at Kensington Palace State Apartments and it's going to be on till the 29th of October so So many of you getting in touch about your life changing moments. After getting divorced, I found Scottish country dancing. I met my best friend, danced and taught in many parts of the world, met the Queen, appeared on TV and performed at the Royal Albert Hall.

At 81, I feel very fortunate. Good on you. When I was 36, I was diagnosed with cancer and my marriage ended. I went from housewife to victim. 15 years later I'm stronger, thankful for the journey and have founded a care and support charity and that's from Louise in Worcestershire. Louise and everybody else who's been in touch, thank you. I'll be back tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, I'm Lucy Worsley and I want to tell you about Lady Killers from BBC Radio 4. It's a programme that mixes true crime with history, but with a twist. With our all-female team of experts, I am re-examining the crimes committed by murderesses in the past, through the eyes of 21st century feminists. What can we learn from these women? And would it be any different today? Lady Killers. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.