Woman's Hour - DJ Paulette, Abortion, Vinted co-founder, Childcare

Episode Date: January 22, 2024

Award-winning DJ Paulette has been in the music industry for more than 30 years. She got her start at the famous Haçienda nightclub in Manchester but has DJ'd all over the world. Her book, Welcome to the Club: The Life and Lessons of a Black Woman DJ, tells some of the tales of her career so far and shines a light on many other women in the electronic dance music industry. Paulette joins Emma Barnett.New guidance from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists to healthcare workers says that suspected illegal abortions should not be reported to the police. This guidance, which applies to England and Wales, follows some recent cases where women have been convicted of having illegal abortions. Emma is joined by former Chief Superintendent at the Metropolitan Police Parm Sandhu, and Associate Professor in Criminal Law and Criminal Justice at Durham University Dr Emma Milne to discuss.Buying second-hand clothes is fashionable again, thanks to online marketplaces like Vinted, Depop and eBay. Emma talks to Vinted co-founder Milda Mitkute about what it takes to turn an idea into a successful business and why she decided to leave the company in 2017 when her first child was born.Is the Government's key childcare promise to parents in trouble? One newspaper is reporting that thousands of parents are being warned they won't be able to access the offer of free childcare to under twos this year. Emma gets the view of providers from Neil Leitch, Chief Executive of the Early Years Alliance which represents 14,000 nurseries, pre-schools and childminders, and June O'Sullivan CEO of LEYF nurseries.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope the weekend was good for you. I'm being mindful of a storm's major impact and its continuing impact today and trying to push on this morning. Personally, today I was pretty grateful not to be on the school drop-off as my husband dealt with our son putting his foot straight into,

and I quote, a mountain of loose animal stools on his shoe. Hope you're not having a late breakfast. The need for old toothbrushes aside on a windy morning then. Shall we crack on with today's programme? I think we should. I can promise you the co-founder of Vinted, Europe's biggest second-hand marketplace, DJ Paulette is going to be here. We will discuss what music gives to us and why she hates being asked about if it's hard to be a female DJ. I'll steer clear of that question.

And the latest on what's being described by some as the government's childcare funding fiasco. But today also marks the first time that the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has issued official guidance telling healthcare workers not to report women to the police if they believe their patients may have illegally ended their own pregnancy. The new guidance follows a recent rise in police investigations into abortions and such suspicions. NHS staff can breach confidentiality rules to give information to police about possible crimes, but only if it's in the public interest. The Royal College is saying today it's never in the public interest

and such women must instead be safeguarded. How do you feel about the rise in these reports? It is still a small number, I should stress that, but it's gone up. And at the heart of it, it's healthcare professionals sharing personal information with police. If you think about some of the settings you've been in and the idea of that, of course, I'm sure you weren't in a largely, and I'll be talking in the majority sense of this, in a criminal situation, but the idea of healthcare professionals sharing information about you at your most vulnerable, in a difficult place,

something you thought would be private. What do you make of this and the need for this guidance today? Also, do you think it is ever in the public interest for healthcare professionals to report women they suspect in this position to have illegally ended their own pregnancy to the police? Very shortly, India, we'll be hearing from a former police officer, former superintendent, chief superintendent on this. But I would like to hear from you as well today. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. What is your reaction when you hear of the need for this guidance and what is being said around it? Also, I should say that the guidance is talking about the fact that healthcare professionals who do this will have to defend their decision and should be prepared for the fact that they may be struck off. If you are working in such a field, what do you make of this guidance?

On social media, at BBC Women's Hour is the handle that you need. You can email us through the Women's Hour website. I'd like to hear from you there. Or send me a WhatsApp or voice note on 03700 100 444. Watch those charges. But with this new guidance being issued today to healthcare workers talking about whether suspected illegal abortions should ever be reported to the police, the guidance is saying they should not.

The current law in England, Wales and Scotland is that abortions are legal if approved by two doctors and within 24 weeks of pregnancy. This new guidance, which I should say applies to England and Wales, follows some recent cases where women have been convicted of having illegal abortions. You may have heard Jonathan Lord, the Abortion Task Force Leader at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and the author of this new guidance speaking to my Today programme colleagues earlier this morning. The core problem here is that the law is simply not fit for purpose.

And that's not really surprising when you trace back the origins. The origins of one of the parts of the abortion law called Section 60 goes right back to 1623. And that was, you know, 100 years before we stopped burning women alive at the stake. So that's the era this is coming from. And what's particularly upsetting is that the law originally was designed to protect women. It was designed to protect them from harm, from backstreet abortions. But now it's been turned on its head and is used to prosecute the women and cause harm to them. Jonathan Lord there. Abortion is, of course, an issue that elicits strong feelings on both sides,

which is why today's guidance could be seen as controversial and therefore is important to discuss and to get your views on. Some already coming in. One straightaway saying women need support not to be chased by the police well let's talk to the former chief superintendent at the metropolitan police palm sandu an associate professor in criminal law and criminal justice at durham university dr emma milne emma i'll come to you in just a moment but palm good morning good morning what's your reaction to this guidance as a former chief superintendent? I don't actually agree with the guidance.

I think that the report should be made and then the evaluation carried out by the CPS to see whether or not a prosecution is appropriate. It's not appropriate in every situation. However, we're talking about illegal abortions and there is a safe and legal route to get an abortion. So why has that person decided to go through the illegal route and who is administrating those drugs? You know, how is it happening? So I think that the reports should be made, but not necessarily a prosecution follow. Isn't that a waste of police time? No, because I think it's actually protecting the women. I've had a lot of experience in dealing with domestic violence and honour-based abuse.

And in those situations, women are put under a lot of pressure. There's coercion control. And especially in some cultures, if a young girl gets pregnant, there's huge pressure from the family in having an abortion. It may not necessarily be what she wants and it may not necessarily be what is right for her. So you could see a world, just going with some of those examples there, where there's a prosecution but not necessarily of the woman. That's right, yes. And that's why I say that the report should be made to the police who will evaluate the whole situation, not just that individual. And the prosecution may not even follow, but we need to be aware of those trends, where it's happening and who's actually supplying those drugs and why, you know, what's happening.

The Royal College will be very aware of these different sorts of examples of which you speak, having been the primary caregivers for these women. And they say, and it says rather, this guidance says, there is never a case for this. And straightaway, and it says rather, this guidance says, there is never a case for this. And straightaway, you heard a response from one of our listeners saying, women in this case should not be even in contact with police, never mind anything beyond being looked after by healthcare professionals. Having dealt with honour-based abuse, I know that there

are some women who when that referral is made to police they will get the protection that they need this is a really complicated situation and it isn't just about that one individual it's about the people around that woman who's supporting her and if she's going down the route of an illegal abortion has she had the right support the counselling or is she just being given some drugs and being told to take them? So I think it's really complicated. It's not as simple as saying do not ever report. I do not agree with that. I think the report should be made a proper evaluation of what's happened, why has it happened and is there a case that should be taken forward? Dr Emma Milne listening to that what do you make of what Palmer's saying? I disagree the

evidence we have of the women who are being reported and then being prosecuted are women who are in crisis it's a crisis that they can't accept the pregnancy for some reason so there might be abuse there might be violence that's connected to that potentially we're talking about women living in abject poverty regardless of of the circumstances, we can absolutely see these are desperate women in desperate circumstances. And the response from the police hasn't been a compassionate, let's look at the circumstances around you and not focus on you. The consequence has been women having their children taken away from them because they're considered to be a danger to their children, even though there's no evidence that that would be the case. Women names being put out. So it means that they can't go back to their communities because they're essentially being, you know, the threats of violence means they just can't go back to home.

Women being held in custody for 36 hours, just some absolutely horrendous situations there, like one woman being held without any clothes during a period, being given no menstrual products to assist with that. So the police response is absolutely not this sense of let's help this woman, it's this sense of let's punish this woman for what they see to be wrongful behaviour. And as Jonathan Lord said when he was talking on Radio 4, the morning programme, this is laws that are entirely out of date. Parliament needs to look at them, needs to reform them. But while they're not doing that, medical professionals have a duty of care to their patients and they need to, as part of that, not be reporting women to the police. Palm Sandhu, what's your response?

I would say that Emma is quite rightly pointing out the police failings in that there should be more support and the practices and procedures need to be looked at. However, why did that woman in the first place go down the route of an illegal abortion? If she's got threats of violence, threats of poverty um her you know other risk factors why did she not go down the route of the legal abortion and it's going back to should it be legal or an illegal abortion that she's chosen why does she go down that particular route so that's what needs to be looked at that's what needs to be but are the police with all that you have experienced of the police you've spoken spoken about the police, are police really the best unit in our society to do that?

In this situation, to actually regulate and to actually enforce the law, yes, they are. Because I am concerned that we're not just talking about that one individual woman. We're talking about the people who are supplying drugs. Are they the right drugs? Are they going to harm that woman? Are they going to cause lasting damage? Where's the regulation? Because we are almost encouraging those backstreet abortion type issues to happen again.

So for me, it is about safeguarding that woman. And I don't think that the medical profession themselves can do that alone. It has to be in conjunction with police, with social services and everybody else supporting that individual. Emma? So safeguarding the woman is absolutely important. However, if we end up in a situation where women know that they are going to be reported to the police if they present to a medical professional either having an abortion that they have procured themselves or they're having a miscarriage or a stillbirth which could be spontaneous and we have seen some of the cases are like this. It's not a woman seeking to end her own pregnancy, it's a woman

who's having a spontaneous miscarriage or own pregnancy. It's a woman who's having a spontaneous miscarriage or stillbirth. She then might say to the medical professional, I did think about having an abortion. And that leads to the medical professional contacting the police because they think she has done something illegal. In all of these situations, if women know that they're going to be reported to the police, what they do is they don't go to medical professionals for support. So we are going to end up back in a situation of backstreet operations, backstreet behaviour, women not seeking support, but because of the reporting to the police, that's why. So you're coming at this from very different points of view, which is why it's important to

hear these both sides on this, because it's not necessarily some of the views that people will have thought about. But Emma, to Palm's point, you know, with your research and who you've seen, because it is a small number at the moment that we're aware of, when women are doing this in, when they're in a situation where either they're trying to procure an abortion later than is legally allowed or in a different way than going to a doctor and having two doctors having it signed off. Why are they doing that? So in most of these cases, the women will be denying the pregnancy to themselves. They might have some awareness that they're pregnant. So they'll have kind of moments where they'll realise and they'll panic and then the panic causes them to suppress the knowledge again. So and this concealment, this denial that they're living in,

that's a product of the crisis that they're in. So we're not talking about women who get to 27 weeks pregnant and just go, oh, do you know what, I've changed my mind, I'm going to end this pregnancy in my own way. We're talking about women who have been in a prolonged crisis and finally take steps to end the crisis. And then, as I've already said, we're talking about some women who have spontaneous stillbirths and spontaneous miscarriages

who potentially have a wanted pregnancy and then seeking medical assistance for their stillbirth and are being accused by the medical staff and reported to the police. Having heard that, Pam, just going back to something you said, that if we don't have police involvement with this and with this guidance that's come out, that there will be practically an encouragement of backstreet abortions. A, you can hear how incredibly rare this is. And B, with that particular scenario that's been described, and I'm looking through some of the women's names who have been prosecuted in recent times and whether that prosecution has been successful or not. They are not the circumstance that you have described. And you can hear here that this is more of a crisis of circumstance rather than a need to do anything illegal. You're absolutely right. But what I'm trying to say is that why did those women not go through

the legal routes? And if they did choose to go down those legal routes and they went through the illegal routes, then I do think that there should be some sort of regulation to make sure that those women are not being given drugs that don't work, drugs that are going to damage them, drugs that are going to harm them and possibly not actually result in abortion. So there's no regulation there. I'm not suggesting that every time that report is made that police prosecute, there's the evaluation, it goes to CPS, and then a decision is made based on hard facts, whether or not that prosecution should happen. Okay. And Emma, I'm going to read out some messages in just a moment. Emma, on that,

taking in what Palms just said, who will act if that is the situation as Palms just described it? Because it won't be doctors. No, but doctors have the ability to refer patients to support. They do that all of the time in all sorts of situations, including when women come in having experienced violence from a partner, they have the ability to offer the support there they don't necessarily phone the police in all of those situations so when we have no no but if you if you the you know it's a very unique situation because the harm is also to the woman and some would argue as well to the unborn child in this scenario um they're you know not being given those

drugs when you shouldn't be given them, the regulation around that, are you concerned that you will lose that with this guidance? I'm not overly concerned about that, no, because the police are rarely going after the people supplying the drugs and in many situations the women are supplying them, the women are obtaining them through legitimate sources. So, for example, women believing they

were under 10 weeks pregnancy, requesting an at-home medical abortion through legitimate services, and then finding out she was actually over 10 weeks. In that sort of situation, the police are prosecuting her. They're obviously not prosecuting the provider, which is absolutely right. So, no, I'm not concerned in that respect. And I do believe medical staff are very good at providing and signposting women to support when they are in these incredibly difficult situations. Just finally, Palm, extremely quickly, there's a really interesting message here.

I worked at a women's charity for years. If we're talking about reporting women to the police for their support, then this needs to be their choice. All you can do as a professional is discuss this with them. And if and only if they consent, then it can be passed on. Pam, what do you say to that? Because it's about whether it's in the public interest and you want to support women. I think you're right. And it does have to be in the public interest. But if you've got a spate of illegal abortions happening in a particular area,

then you need to look at where that supply is coming from. And you can't do that with the consent of the woman necessarily. Not necessarily. But I do find it incredible that a woman who is in crisis, who has gone past the 24 weeks, is able to source these drugs from another woman who requested them at 10 weeks. I find that quite incredible, and that doesn't happen. So there is some sort of illegal supply, and even when you take these drugs, you could end up not having an abortion but just damaging the unborn child. But the supply is not necessarily illegal so you'll end up having to

look at the woman which is where this issue comes to. It's sort of reality meets theory with some in the middle. And that's why it's got to be evaluated and looked at properly in each individual case. Thank you to both of our guests there. Former Chief of Superintendent at the Metropolitan Police, Palm Sandhu, sticking to this and not agreeing with this guidance today. And the Associate Professor in Criminal Law and Criminal Justice at Durham University, Dr Emma Milne. We contacted the Crown Prosecution Service

for a statement. A spokesperson said, these exceptionally rare cases, which we should stress, it is exceptionally rare still, but there have been an increase in the number, are complex and traumatic. We carefully consider

the personal circumstances of those who end their pregnancy outside the legal parameters and address these as sensitively as possible. Our prosecutors have a duty to ensure that laws set by Parliament are properly considered and applied when making difficult charging decisions. The need for guidance on this, says Jen, listening in Brighton, good morning to you, is appalling.

Women should be free to decide what to do with their bodies. The archaic law should be changed. The police should stay out. But another one here says, we have laws in our society. It's not up to a medical college to unilaterally decide to vary the law of the land and to instruct their members to do the same. Abortion is a highly emotive subject,

and I am sorry for women in crisis, but if we accept this, where will it end? What other laws will people decide to ignore? And Sarah says women ending their own pregnancy are easy prey for the police. Keep your messages coming in. But I'll ask you this question in the meantime. You might have an interesting answer to it. Have you ever had a business idea at two o'clock in the morning and thought, I should definitely do that.

But then the morning comes around and you did do something, or maybe you didn't. There's probably more in the latter camp. Maybe you should, though, because that's what happened to my next guest, Milda Mitkuta. She's the co-founder of the second-hand clothes-selling app Vinted. Vinted is now Europe's biggest second-hand marketplace. Others are available, but 80 million people use this particular app globally. You might be one of them.

And this year marks the 10th anniversary of its launch in the UK. Milda, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you for being with us. I believe you were at a party, 21, and had this idea. Tell us a bit more and why you carried through with it why you did it uh but uh you know first of all i need to tell that everything was spontaneous so we didn't have any plans you know everything was born like i would say by accident or just by intuition uh but the idea

was born yeah it was born at 2 a.m in the party but the idea itself uh was born a bit earlier like maybe five days before the party because i was moving from one town to the capital and i had to move all of my stuff from my mother's apartment to the rented apartment and then and then you know you go to the you rent the apartment for the first time in your life so of course you cannot afford big apartments so it was super small apartment and for me it was the first time that i realized okay but my closet doesn't fit anymore so i need to to do some reorganization and then i started to pick some stuff that i want to keep it and to take it to the capital to villanous and someone and then i don't know maybe 60 of the items were like left alone like okay and i that i don't know, maybe 60% of the items were left alone,

like, okay, that I don't want to use them. I was like, wow, most of them, they're still with tags, with labels, or some of them, they were like once, twice, or even more, but still, it was in very good shape. So this is how I came up with the idea, because in our generation, we buy way more than we need, so that's why we don't have enough time to make the item die because it's not wearable anymore. So usually you wear some dress three, four times,

and somehow you change your mind or you say, oh, I got bored. And again, it's a very good shape. So this is how the idea came to my mind and yeah by accident I was invited to the party to and this is where I met Eustace actually it was the second time I met him uh and this is your I should say this is who became your co-founder and we're talking about a party in Lithuania where you're from. Yes, yes. So he lived in Vilnius and I moved to Vilnius. And my friends, my girlfriend invited me to a party. And this is where I met Justas also by accident.

I didn't know that he was going to be there. And he was a developer. And I was the idea generator. And somehow the match happened. Because I told him about the idea and he said nonsense. Because he was like an

anti-consumerist. I was the person who used to have way too many dresses, way too many shoes and so on, while you said I have one pair of shoes and i said like so so does this problem really exist in the world and then in that party we said like so let's do the experiment so he went out and he asked all people all ladies in the room in the in the party

so would you like this idea and all of them like said, of course, of course I would. So then you just came to me, OK, I changed my mind. Let's do it together because it seems it might be a big thing. So this is how we started. And it's a great story. I mean, people would say, well, there was already eBay. But just if I can fast forward slightly, it was the technology that he brought to the table with your vision of it and at this particular point which allowed it in some would say to make it a lot easier to sell these clothes get it out there the postage side of it

and you know that's why a lot of people millions of people came over making it you know the first I believe Lithuania's first unicorn company which is valued at more than a billion which is an extraordinary creation by you and but I know you had angel investors come on board, which is perhaps when things went into a different league. And, you know, a lot of people can't imagine, they hear the success, but they can't imagine how hard it is at first. How difficult was it to keep going with it? Yeah, so I think that there are like two side stories.

So the first three years, so it was, you know, well, I would say it started to the party and it looked like a party for the first three years because we didn't do almost nothing. We were just creating and it was, you know, it was our hobby project. So we didn't quit our jobs. So we had, we used to say normal jobs. I was working in a PR agency and he was working as a developer. So we just spent like two or three hours per day or more during the weekend. So the first three years, it was like, oh, well, I want to have some free time. I allow myself.

And a different story happened when the first business angel came. And actually, before business angel, we didn't think about Vinted as a business. And we weren't looking for any business angel. We weren't looking for any investment or scaling a budget or something. So we didn't care so much about that because it was like, we do what we like

and we don't see this as a business. And then the first business angel came and he said, like, I see that you are so enthusiastic, but I also see that you don't understand what you created because it seems that it might be a very global thing. At that time, we were very big in Germany as well and in Czech Republic. So we already had three markets and in all of them, we were like booming and was super successful. But somehow I said, oh, but, oh, but it's just a hobby project. So then Business Angel Mantas, he said, guys, let's try to do a global thing.

And we said, well, okay, let's try. And then the big thing started. And then we started, for me personally, it was quite a challenge because you used to be very self-disciplined. You do what you want. You wake up whatever you want. And it's like I'm more creative rather than strategic person and so on. And then Montez John said, okay, so let's try to create a business out of that.

And for me, I had to make a big shift in my mindset as well like to learn more about discipline strategy budget and everything so you know it's it's not the the first three years it was more about well i'm not planning but i will be happy what will happen and you you just use the chance to you just flow and that's it but having but having said that you know some people would be surprised to learn, as the co-founder of Vinted, with where it is now, that you're no longer involved day to day. Yeah, I'm on maternity leave at the moment.

So what actually it happens like the last seven years, because I left Vinted to start my family project. And, you know, Vinted's job was really intense. Like I said, it's like a very demanding child. It accepts only one child, like, in the family. So then I was at Vinted, so Vinted was my child. And then we decided with my husband that it's time for a family. So we said, okay, but it's very hard to compare,

like to work at the same with kids and with a very demanding kid like Vinted, especially that we said we don't want a small family. We said we want to go for four or five kids. So that's why I left for, that's why it's seven years now. And now I have four kids, four boys. And now I'm closing the family project so you know i live by project so it's a project now it's family project now maybe something else so let's come let's come to that if we can i like the fact you're still on maternity leave though

seven years on are you are you actually still being paid on maternity leave in lithuania for seven years yeah yes how does that work we have a very good social program. Yeah. So it's, well, it's not for all the years because, you know, it's with some gaps. Yes. Because you usually get paid only for one or two years. So you can choose. I usually choose only one year.

So from those seven years, I was paid only four years. But I could choose, like, you know, and get for eight years. I mean choose like you know and get for 80 for eight years I mean you're obviously in a slightly different scenario to say the least than than many women in Lithuania right now but what that brings to mind though if you talk about the fact that you've got to have this project you've now moved on to the family project is you know some will be very intrigued from your perspective having set up Vinted with your with your colleague why you can't do both at the same time and I'm sure you've thought about that and you've made a clear decision yeah yeah well I think I can but it was just you know that like so my idea was like

if you have one or two kids so then yeah of course you can because I think that everything is possible but at the same time you know then you have four in the row. I mean, like it's a very small gap between kids. And at the same time, my husband, he also quit his business. And he said, but let's make it count. Like, no, let's make our like, no fatherhood and motherhood count. Like that he wouldn't be like, sorry, like after 30, 40 years that we didn't spend so much time with our kids.

So that's why for this uh so I my husband left like four years ago I left seven years ago and this is like we said let's do this as a team and now then since we are finishing our family project so now he's going to his businesses and I'm also going somewhere I'm still not sure but uh but yeah so that was like intentional um like idea like let's spend more time together with the family obviously it's not possible for most people but it's an interesting thing to hear about the idea of stopping work to do that together and it's interesting to hear that you've done it with your partner as opposed to on your own as the woman um what are you going to do next?

Now you, as you have put it, completed the family project. Although some would say you're perhaps longer in the tooth of parenting. The real project starts when the children hit 10 and up. But carry on. Yeah, my family project finishes then the youngest is two. So they go to kindergarten, stop breastfeeding and so on so it means i'm like no i'm able to sleep all night and so on so for me this is the family project and of course i spend lots of time like you know so it's like in the evenings and so on

so that's why i have it's a kind of sensitive topic because um you know you still want to have some time for family and i remember winter times then you get back in the evening so you don't have energy for anything are you I don't want to yes no no I understand that but are you going to start something new business wise so because I already have some ideas and I'm also developing one of the ideas it's more in education because you know then you have kids so I I'm actually a problem solver if I have a problem I need to solve it so the same with closets I had a problem no one solved it for me so I created the solution myself

so now you know then you have kids you start to think okay so what kind of schools they're gonna go what kind of education they're gonna get and I see lots of issues here so because it's very old school education system I guess everywhere in Europe and I was like okay let's change that.

So that's why I'm now doing some things in education, developing some things. So let's see, maybe in one or two years I'm going to do more. I would look forward to that. It's very nice to have you on the program. We're going to be talking tomorrow to someone who's actually using online selling platforms because there's also been a change here in the UK with companies such as Vinted, of which, of course, you still have your shares, we should say, will be required to collect information on how much their users make for tax purposes here in the UK.

So things could change because I'm sure you could never imagine people making upwards of £1,000 as they are in the UK. And that could actually change how people use that platform. What do you think about that change, just very briefly? I think that, you know, like, I'm not sure if it's too brave enough to see that it was disruptive, like the product. But at the same time, it changed user behavior that instead of selling just car or just some very, like, I don't know, cheer or something, people to start sell everything.

I mean, everything what they don't use at home. So of course that, you know, the incomes from secondhand clothing and stuff and everything what they have at home increases. So I think it needs to be evaluated by official powers. So I think it's a must.

You think it's a must? There you go. A clear answer. I can't always get this. You think it's a must? There you go. A clear answer. Can't always get those from the politicians, but a clear answer from you. Milda, thank you very much for talking to us. Milda Mikita there, who's the co-founder of Vinted,

talking about the different projects and how that came about. It was always fascinating to hear the stories behind businesses that become forces in our everyday life. Talking about forces, if you missed my interview with the multi-award winning star of stage and screen,

Jodie Comer last week, I did ask her how she found being famous. And here's what she said about the pitfalls of fame. When you want to walk the shop without a bra on, and then, you know, you get Pat with no bra on. Has that happened? It has. But then I was like, well, I don't... Did you have a see-through top on?

No, I didn't. I didn't. But I'm like, I don't want to change the way I want to live. You know? Sometimes you want to go out without a bra on. I don't have that option, being of the heavier mammary load. But if I could go to the shop without... I mean, the first thing I do, Jodie, when I get an identity,

is to take the bra off. Yeah. Are you the same? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah when I get an identity test is to take the bra off. Yeah. Are you the same? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you even up the stairs by that point? No. Or is it just... It's off.

Door off. I've had a lot of women get in touch over the weekend saying it's straight on the banister. And also someone who made bras saying, I can make it that you don't feel like that. I don't think you can. And I also simply don't recall

saying heavier mammary load. But that's what Jodie Comer did to me. You can catch up with the whole interview on BBC Sounds. It's from the episode January 18th. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, we did talk about this a little bit last week, but it seems to have gone into a different league, perhaps. The government's key childcare promise to parents is in trouble.

The Times newspaper's lead today says senior Whitehall sources have told them that delays in allocating funding, staff shortages and IT issues have led to thousands of parents being warned they won't be able to access the government's offer of free childcare this year. To remind you of that offer, all two-year-olds will be eligible for 15 free hours of childcare a week from April, while nine-month-old will be eligible for the scheme come September. Last week, we spoke about parents having issues with both the codes they need to register with the scheme or finding a provider that can offer them that free childcare. Let's talk now to Neil Leitch,

Chief Executive of the Early Years Alliance. That's a charity that represents 14,000 nurseries, preschools and childminders. And Juno Sullivan, Chief Executive of Leaf Nurseries, a social enterprise that cross subsidises 35% of places for parents who cannot afford nursery. Neil, good morning. I'll just come to you first, if I may. Why are some nurseries saying they can't provide these free childcare places? I think there are several reasons, frankly. One is that they are already struggling to deliver the existing places for three and four-year-olds. And you have to remember, this is all against a backdrop of record closures in the sector over the last few years. And we also have

a recruitment and retention crisis. So it doesn't matter what you put on paper, it doesn't matter what appears on a headline in terms of an offer for parents. If you don't have the staff, the educators to deliver it, and if you don't have the funding, it will struggle full stop. So those two areas, I think, are the main challenges at the moment. June, let me bring you in at this point. What about from your perspective, this offer from the government, which was the centrepiece of the Chancellor's budget? I think you have to think about this offer like a triangle. You have to look at it from the parent perspective, the provider perspective and the children's perspective. And I think the government, in its enthusiasm to meet the, I suppose, the calls of parents and the issues of high cost,

looked at one angle and forgot to look at the other two. So they were keen to meet the needs of parents, but they forgot to talk about those of us who would deliver this, and actually the children who would be experiencing that. So I think that's the conversation that hasn't been had. And I think the press is picking up on that now and actually beginning to kind of try and put the three bits together. And to Neil's point, I would totally agree with him.

I mean, we were already, and I think Neil can correct me on this because he's great on figures, but he used to be in a bank. So he's great on figures. But I think it's £2.30 shortfall per hour already before we overlay this. And then there's a big philosophical question that no one's picking up on.

And I think guys like, you know, people like you would be interested in is that if it goes the way it's going, 80% of the places will be purchased by the government. Does that tip us into the third arm of the welfare state then? Because that then leaves only 20 to play around so like for me as a social enterprise we cross subsidize all the time now if i'm limited to that and the funding isn't enough how therefore can i pay my staff better and solid wages and meet the london living wage etc etc and how can i innovate and you know develop and improve things so that we're always ahead of the game when it comes to modern education for small children and also staff practising.

I think there's a philosophical challenge here, there's a practical challenge here, there's a financial challenge here, and then fundamentally there's a question to the entire British public. It's like, what do you want for small children? Those are big questions, and looking at the government we have right now, and the promise that has been made, and as you would say, what's not been addressed. To come back to you, Neil, do you think this scheme can work? Because there will be parents this morning, on the telephone, trying to get their codes, trying to use this, and they don't have the time

or the energy, and perhaps by the end of it the wherewithal to to see it through i think for some parents emma they will be fortunate enough to be able to get a place but the reality is we have already seen and in fact the bbc were instrumental in providing some data and showing that there are numerous parents who have already been told that they will be on a year's waiting list for example example, to try and get a place. And I was interested when June referred to the government's enthusiasm. I think that was a rather polite way of saying it. And June's not normally that polite, to say the least. But I would say that it was a knee-jerk reaction, frankly, to the headlines that we have some of the highest early years childcare costs and education charges in the whole of Europe, in the world,

in fact. And that is because we have this appalling investment. Again, June is absolutely right. We did a freedom of information request when we were tired of hearing the government constantly trot out the same old line, there's enough money in the system. So back in December of 2018, we said, if you think you pay enough money into the sector, then show us your computations. Two and a half years later, after battling and battling, the Information Commissioner's Office forced them to reveal the data. It showed, their words, not mine, that to adequately fund the entitlements would require

an additional £2 billion. They went on to put a cost on that. They said by 2021, they would have to pay providers for a three and four-year-old place an hourly rate of £7.49. What they paid the sector in that year was £4.89. We would love to get anything close to a rate of £7.49 at this particular point in time. And that is post, dare I say, the list trust budget and, of course, double-digit inflation. So it's very difficult to see how this will universally work full stop. And I'd suggest that's frankly the reason why these particular schemes

have been rolled out effectively through to September of 2025, because there was not a single word of consultation with the sector full stop. We're the biggest organisation in terms of representing early years providers. I heard about this particular initiative, apart from the press, dare I say, but from the government, 10 minutes before the Chancellor stood up. Who else in business would make the biggest investment ever and not talk to the people that have to deliver it? And just on that, while people will be very interested to hear that, that biggest investment, I want to read you a statement

that we've got from the government, from the Department for Education. Does that investment, you know, that hourly gap that you were talking about, does it close it in any way? No. No. Nowhere near it. Sorry, go on. We're a charitable organisation. We operate 42 settings exclusively in areas of deprivation, not for profit. In fact, we haven't made a penny's profit this particular year. We've made a loss. This time four years ago, we operated 132. We've closed 90 of those settings. We don't have to give an investment back to our investors. Break season, even, as I say, is about as good as it gets,

frankly. But you've closed them because you can't make them work. They're unsustainable. June, what did you want to say? I was just agreeing with Neil, but I also think there's something we need to think about is about staffing. I mean, we're really short of staff. Now, people sort of think of it only as a COVID issue, but actually it was already happening beforehand.

And there's some real challenges in getting a pipeline going through. So, you know know the government did some tweaking i they increased the ratios to one to five for toddlers the sector said for the most part no one is going to really run with that except maybe use it to flexibly um kind of work around the shifts at the end of the beginning of the day because when i did a staff survey with my own staff last year um the one thing they said i said to them if you had a man if i had a magic one what would you what would you want and they said to go home on time so not to have to do overtime and the like so you know and so what's happening also is a lot of the new staff coming in are very

inexperienced so your experienced staff are worn out because they're carrying a lot of the responsibility and then there was a piece of research done recently by um fairmont and they found that actually parents themselves are so very stressed but sometimes there's a lack of empathy so people often talk about nurseries in terms of the children but actually a lot of time is spent on nurturing and supporting the parents to the extent that like we have seven food banks right now seven food banks and like they're really well used and they're not just food they're resources so you can imagine the kind of pressure that, you know, your staff are under. So when you're then short staffed or you're covering agency staff and you can't even get them sometimes,

those kind of things, you know, really put pressure on really well-meaning and often very experienced staff. So that issue is important because you can't expand. You can't put more pressure on them. They just all leave and there won't be a sector department for education spokesperson said in a statement because we did invite a minister on we hope to have somebody this week i sincerely hope we can we are rolling out the single largest expansion in child care in england's history ensuring working parents with 30 hours of free child care a week starting at nine months old all the way up to

their child starting school we are pleased that thousands of parents have already applied for the expansion starting in April. However, a pre-existing feature in the system where parents reconfirm their eligibility every three months is impacting a minority of parents when combined with a small number of providers who are asking for codes much earlier than April. Parents who cannot reconfirm online until the second half of February or March will therefore automatically receive a letter with a code from HMRC before the middle of February without needing to take any action. Neil, what do you say to that? I think it's just typical of the fact that announce first and work it out later.

That's just indicative of everything that's happened with this particular office. June? Well, I'm worried about that because we're already experiencing parents very confused who are existing parents and also we have four and a half thousand parents, so existing parents, but also parents who think that there's going to be this magical place for them in April where their two-year-old can attend. So I think that the coding system is really quite important. But also because the funding hasn't come through, we're all trying to design our budgets around guesstimates and accruals and stuff at the moment, which is a bit tricky also because therefore we can't really tell people correctly like what we can do to support them so

it's not giving it's not the best circumstance and what grieves me more than anything is actually it gives the sector a bad name as if like it's our problem and we're not a bad sector we're actually really want to do the best for children but we look like basically I might use my Irish's here and say we look like a bunch of eejits. I hope we can talk to a minister. The government, as is said in this statement, is arguing that it will be sorted. But there are bigger questions which both of you have posed. Neil Leitch, chief executive of the Early Years Alliance.

That's a charity that represents 14,000 nurseries, preschools and childminders, and June O'Sullivan, CEO of Leaf Nurseries, a social enterprise that cross-subsidises 35% of places for parents who cannot afford nursery. Perhaps you will also have experience or views on this, especially to some of those questions that June was raising there about what we actually want and the role of the state in providing such care pre-school. You've also continued to get in touch this morning, just let me read a couple of these messages, about this first-of-its-kind guidance from the Royal College of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians this morning saying that there is no incident where if there is a suspected illegal ending

to a pregnancy with a woman, no healthcare provider should be in a position to contact the police, which has been the case. There's been a rising number of cases being referred to the police and then prosecutions of women for illegal abortions or suspected illegal abortions.

I've been asking about your view of that and the role of these healthcare workers intervening where this has happened. I work for social services and I can see a very fine line between keeping abortion confidential and sharing information with professionals. I do not think though, because this was part of it,

that nurses and doctors should be threatened with losing their job. And Mike, who's listening in France, good morning to you. As a man, I cannot possibly imagine how difficult it is for a woman to be in the position of having to decide whether to have an abortion or not. My daughter had several miscarriages before successfully carrying her son and the trauma surrounding this was horrific. The matter of abortion is, in my opinion, a matter for the woman concerned. And it is up to society

to lay down the facts and support the woman where she has made her informed decision. Thank you very much for taking the time to get in touch this morning. As always, please do continue to do so. My next guest has been in the music industry for more than 30 years. The award winning DJ Paulette got her start at the famous nightclub, the Hacienda in Manchester, her hometown, my hometown, but she's DJed all over the world with residences at clubs like Ministry of Sound, Heaven, Ibiza Rocks, I could carry on, but she's now put it all in a book. Welcome to the club, The Life and Lessons of a Black Woman DJ. Good morning, DJ Paulette. Good morning.

I'm super happy to hear that you're a mank as well. Oh, yeah. But I'm so sad because I missed out on the hacienda. I always heard about it. Oh, that doesn't matter. I just, yeah, you know, it would have been amazing. And I love that we just refer to you a bit like Madonna with one word, one name, DJ Paulette.

Yeah, exactly. That's the way I'm known. That's the way I will live and the cross I will die on. My name, Paulette, is the personality that I am putting forward. I want to get into your story in just a moment, but I was thinking this morning about the importance of clubbing and music and what it gives us. And I was having a look because I remember, you know,

I was actually on a different programme I used to present on Five Live a lot of the time from Manchester before and I remember announcing the closures of so many different parts of our societies we went into lockdown and I was looking this morning at what's happened to the nightclub industry since and the number that have shut since Covid it was already a trend but it's continued to do so what would you say is the importance of having a space like a nightclub for people to go to in society it's community and i think we really found that particularly through the pandemic and lockdown that this um you know that this opportunity to gather together with a lot of different people and enjoy music the social aspect of it

is really important not just on a a society level but also in terms of mental health the way we communicate the way we evolve as people together you know people need people and you know as much as you can enjoy you know we we developed live streaming through the pandemic and everything and it was great. It really kept it going. But entertainment, hospitality, theatre, you name it, we really need people to get that real full enjoyment of the art together.

And was it for you, and I know you got this start in the Hacienda, but was it for you when you were standing? I mean, it is a pulpit of sorts when you were standing there. It is a church. Everyone has their own religion, don't they? There is, and you can do what you want in there, which is even better, but, you know, to an extent. But was it for you, was it for you that feeling

that made you feel that this is for you to do bringing people? Yeah, I think the element of sharing is what made me do it. You know that that I I admit that I am guilty for really enjoying that being with lots of people and feeling that energy it's almost kinetic you know when you're in a nightclub and everyone's kind of smiling getting into the music listening to the you know listening to the music looking at the DJ not even necessarily looking at the DJ really but just catching that energy between themselves and it is that that really made me feel like you know I really like this and I used to be a singer before so I was used to performing on stage and I was a dancer as well so I was used to performing on a podium with very little on but the difference when you're sharing

music with people there's a connection and the beauty of music is it's universal, it's global. You don't necessarily have to understand the language to get the tune. The melody is the language in itself. The music is the language in itself. And sharing that universal language, you can go anywhere in the world and create that energy and environment and share that feeling. And behind the decks, has it been welcoming to you, that world? Or has it been a fight? How would you now look back on that? It's been both. It's very definitely been both. But, you know, I very much still benefit from the beauty of it, you know, and the joy of it.

And being different at the start of it is what made my career because I was very much, you know, one of the few in the room. But as it's got later and more gendered, it has become a little bit more difficult because there are way more men than women. Men tend to get more breaks than women just by dint of there being more of them. And those are the challenges that have become, you know, a little bit more of a battle, a little bit more of a fight to get, you know, to really keep my footing in a world which is really oversaturated with men and where women don't really get the same kind of look in as the men do. But that exists everywhere. It's not just DJing. But what was interesting to me is that it's begun to very much mirror the society that we were kind of at the beginning, we were booking the trend against. So, yeah.

Well, that is fascinating. And I suppose at the same time, you know, as you talk about being who you are, your style as well and being able to work that and how you look. Tell us a bit about some of those decisions over the years. Yeah, I think in the beginning, starting off being a very forthright, bald, black, queer woman wearing very little. Part of it, you know, there was a practical nature to that. The Hacienda didn't have air conditioning and it was packed. And the less you wore, the better it was. So that was very much the start of me wearing like metal bikinis, PVC bikinis.

I wore every single permutation of a bikini you could possibly think of. I'm really sorry you're not wearing that this morning when I'm looking at you down the screen. I mean, I know there's a storm. It's cold, I'm sitting here with a hot water bottle on my lap. You could have made a bit of effort, Paula. I could have made an effort, this is true. I mean, the knickers are on my wall, believe it or not. I have a pair of sequin knickers on my wall,

but I couldn't actually break the glass to get them out there. It didn't cross my mind. But yeah, there was a practicality, but there was also an aesthetic and an enjoyment there. Yeah, absolutely. I love fashion, Absolutely adore it. And when, you know, when Flesh started, it wasn't all, you know, make your own, make do and mend, even though we didn't have Primark and Zara and that. So if you wanted something sequined, you very much had stores there so people were wearing Vivienne Westwood, Geese, we were shopping at Geese, we were wearing Destroy, Pam Hogg, Boy, you know that it it was a mixture of absolutely everything you could dress up you could dress down and I really appreciated

that I wore a lot of Anne of Sway at the time. All the labels, you know, just bring it on. John Richmond, I absolutely loved. So I've always been really into fashion and putting that out there. And then obviously the music. And just as our time sadly draws to a close, what is the song that you reach for if you're having a bad day, just to get you going? Is there one? So anything by sylvester but

you make me feel mighty real is one of them and the other one is over and over sylvester they those two records will always bring the sun out for me what what is it is it just the is it the beat is it the lyrics what do you go for it's the lyrics the lyrics, it's both and the voice for me. I am very much voice led because my mum was a singer and everyone in my family sings and plays musical instruments and whatever. So we are a very musically literate family and I am very much influenced by the sound of the voice. Well, it's lovely to hear your voice this morning. I'm sad that no one really seems to go to clubs in my life anymore. Where do you go dance?

It's a bit of a gap. I've talked about this before. Come back to Manchester. Well, you have to take me out. We'll have to have a date. Happily. Okay, great. It's done.

It's sorted. The book is called, and congratulations on writing it and getting it all down. Not easy to do. Welcome to the Club, The Life and Lessons of a dj by dj paulette no other there than next time she's going to promise me she's going to be in that metal bikini the sequin bikini that's the date i just need to find something commensurate to uh to wear as well thank you so much for being with me today and for your company and messages i'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Cobalt. A thriller from BBC Radio 4. Hey, Dad. The person you're trying to reach is not available. £603 to Rwand Air. That's the price of a one-way ticket to Zimbabwe.

Good afternoon, ma'am. We're looking for Mr Manfred Zibanda. Is there a problem? Not yet. They've been in a few times this week looking for the cobalt that went missing. Would you risk it for 20 million? What the hell is Dad doing in Zimbabwe right now?

Cobalt. On BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.