Woman's Hour - Doctors' strike, Organist Anna Lapwood, Máiría Cahill, Suffragette medal

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

It's day two of the 72-hour joint strike by junior doctors and consultants in the NHS. Dr Helen Neary, deputy chair of the BMA's consultant's committee and consultant anaesthetist in paediatrics and BBC’s Health Correspondent Nick Triggle joins Emma to discuss the strike and parts of the Health Secretary's speech today.Nicknamed the Taylor Swift of classical music, Anna Lapwood is one of the world's most famous organists, and Director of Music at Pembroke College, Cambridge. To encourage more women to try the instrument, Anna initiated the social media hashtag #playlikeagirl. She joins Emma to talk about her music and her new album Luna.Máiría Cahill grew up in a staunchly Republican family and community in west Belfast. At the age of 16 she says she was serially sexually assaulted and raped by a member of the IRA, and was later subjected to months of meetings about that trauma by the IRA, including being brought face to face with her alleged attacker. In 2014 Máiría waived her anonymity and has been relentless in her campaign to expose those who abused their power, and to get an apology for the way she was treated from senior Sinn Fein politicians. Máiría has written a memoir, Rough Beast, and joins Emma to talk about it.Glasgow Women’s Library is the UK’s only accredited woman’s history museum. For the last 32 years they’ve championed feminist stories from Scotland and beyond through their research, exhibitions and artefacts that have all been donated. However, for the first time they’re entering an auction to bring a piece of Scottish suffragette history back home. Emma Barnett speaks to operations director Sue John on the day of the auction.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today, some doctors right now on the second day of their latest strike action are heading to a rally in Manchester in a bid to get the attention of the Health Secretary, Steve Barclay, who's giving his conference speech at the Conservative Party conference today. In fact, very shortly. They want to talk about pay and conditions in the NHS, while it seems the Health Secretary wants to talk about anything else. That is, if you read the front page of the Daily

Telegraph this morning, which seems to have been given advance notice of his conference speech under the headline, transgender women to be banned from female wards. Well, today on Women's Hour, we thought we'd talk about both. Doctors' strikes in a majority female workforce, that is the NHS, and the news that NHS guidance in 2021, allowing trans patients to be placed on single sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified will be overturned. What is your view? The proposal, as we know it at the moment, is to treat trans patients in single rooms or what's been called separate accommodation. How important are single sex wards to you? 84844, that's the number you need to text me here at Women's Hour,

on social media or at BBC Women's Hour. Email me through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note on the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply. How important are single sex wards to you? And or do you want the health secretary to be headlining his big Conservative Party conference speech as the secretary of state for health about the NHS strikes? Do let me know. Get in touch. The number is 84844. Also on today's programme,

the former politician Maria Carhill on her fight to take on the IRA. And, nicknamed the Taylor Swift of classical music, one of the world's most famous organists, Anna Lapwood, will be here shortly. But it is day two of the 72-hour joint strike by junior doctors and consultants in the NHS in England, with radiographers joining the picket lines today. Bosses are warning patients to expect extreme disruption in hospitals, as only minimal cover will be provided outside of emergency care. So far, more than one million bookings have had to be rescheduled in the NHS since strike action began in December. I will hope to give you some more detail on this and any latest developments shortly. But let's speak to or rather let's hear from Dr. Helen Neary, who is one of those who is on the way to Manchester to try and get the attention of the health secretary.

She is also deputy chair of the BMA's consultant committee and a consultant anaesthetist in paediatrics. Just to remind you, the BMA is the trade union and professional body for doctors and medical students in the UK and has just under 200,000 members. I spoke to her just before coming on air, as I say, she was off to Manchester and I started by asking her why she was striking. Doctors have seen an erosion of their pay by around a third. But I think one of the things which is really, really concerning is the impact this is having in terms of patient care,

the fact that we're unable to retain consultants and we're unable to recruit them to certain specialties. And this is having a significant impact in terms of the clinical care we're able to recruit them to certain specialties and this is having a significant impact in terms of the clinical care we're able to give to patients and it's certainly one of the main factors which is preventing us getting the waiting list down and the other big concern for me and a lot of my colleagues is that the impact this is going to have on on future consultants so those coming behind us and after us they are finding that the nhs is a a less desirable place to work they are looking at jobs outside of

medicine they are looking at jobs abroad and what number what just let's test a couple of those for a moment and we know about waiting lists we know about um you know, firsthand people will have experienced delays in their care, not just to do with strikes, although that is impacting at the moment directly for people I'm aware who are listening who may, you know, should have been at an appointment perhaps this morning. But let's just take that. But testing your idea that people are not going to join the NHS who want to be doctors or work in particular fields. What numbers have you got on that? So last year, the GMC received 7,000 applications for certificates of good standing, which is essentially what you need to be a doctor to work abroad as a recommendation that you would be safe to work. And that has gone up from, it was around 5,000 previous to that. And this year is looking like it's going to be a much larger number than 7,000 from last year. Speaking to a number of... How much larger? Do you know?

I don't know at the moment, but certainly the indications are that that number is going to be bigger. Okay. The reason I want to understand the scale of this is you're saying about pay and the ability to keep people who are already in the NHS. But you're also making a point that it's going to mean new doctors, new medical professionals don't want to come in to the NHS. And as it stands in this country, the NHS is the main health service still. So your point is you think we're going to see a drive for doctors to go abroad. Do you think the government, though, is that worried about that as a threat?

I'm not sure that they have quite realised that retention is one of the key problems in terms of the medical workforce. They are very focused on recruitment. And as you've said, there are still lots of people wanting to go to medical school and study medicine. However, it is like a leaky bucket. There's no point pouring lots of water in if there's lots of holes where they're leaking out further down the end, more senior. Then we're never actually going to get to a point where the bucket fills up. And from our perspective, it's definitely the retention of senior staff, which is really a problem. That's the issue there, because there are a lot of strikes going on at the moment.

And when things have happened a few times, the public can tune out. They can tune out as to why you're doing it. And they can tune into, as has been a lot of the media coverage, about what's been not happening. For instance, non-emergency C-sections have been delayed because of this NHS strike. There's been some very striking reports, if I can say, about that. There was an interview we saw on Sky News, a woman saying she feels she's lost all control over the birth of her child as a result. Or you could pick NHS England data showing 129,913 inpatient and outpatient appointments were rescheduled during last week's strike action. How hard is it to keep your message in the public's mind, in their ears really, when you have got that direct rub

against people's health? It is a challenge and we don't, doctors do not want to be taking strike action. What we want is we want to be able to be looking after our patients to do what we're trained to do, what we all want to kind of push forward in terms of improving patient care. And that is also where this strike action comes from, because we recognise that unless we're able to retain the senior consultants and senior doctors in the NHS, then those are the doctors who are responsible for providing all aspects of care and also responsible for driving improvements to services and improvements in patient care. And if we can't retain those senior consultants, those experts in their field,

then we can't improve and provide the care that we want to be providing to patients. Of the government's latest offer around pay and conditions, remind us of that and why it doesn't seem to be enough. So the government has agreed to abide by what were the independent pay review body's recommendations. And that review body is the doctor's dentist review body. And that was 6%. And that's awarded from April of this year. And so at that time, inflation was running at around 11%. So that still represents a real terms pay cut compared to inflation. Now, doctors have seen the largest erosion in pay over the last 15 years of around a third of their pay.

So a further subinflation pay cut further exacerbates this. But this is not just about one year's pay award. The independent review body has been interfered with by government over the last 10 years by them submitting remit letters, preventing the pay review body from acting independently. They withhold the report for a number of months without publicly releasing it. They constrain what the review body can recommend and they can choose whether or not they can do that. Do you have evidence of that? We do and the BMA has produced a report into the functioning of the doctor's dentist review body.

OK, well, we will be able to put some of this to the government, I hope, at some point. But there are those listening with their own difficulties during, you know, rising prices, rising bills, who perhaps hear that amount and they think, is that not something you could work with? I know that there's already some movement, a little bit if I could call it this, and I wanted to get your latest on it, that senior NHS doctors have offered, I understand, to hold off from further strike action if ministers agree to meet for pay talks mediated by the body ACAS, perhaps a glimmer of hope. Do you buy into that? Where are your confidence levels with the government right now?

So, yes, so consultants have held off calling any further strike actions because one of the repeated preconditions of the government is that they will not enter talks with any union if there are strike dates announced. So therefore, we have not announced any at this point in time. And we are providing a window to enable the government to come to us and have meaningful talks. And do you believe they will? I have to hope that they will. We have invited ACAT to act as conciliators between ourselves and the government. So the ball really is in their court. They have absolutely no reason to... And when we say they, at the top of that is Steve Barclay, the Health Secretary. And the NHS, especially for Women's Hour, not just as women who use the health service,

but it's a majority female workforce still. So this is a very important subject in a very specific way for this programme to get to the bottom of. You're negotiating or attempting to negotiate with Steve Barclay. And I believe you're on your way to Manchester now. Is that linked to the Conservative Party conference that you're hoping to get the attention of the ministers? So we do have a rally in the centre of Manchester

outside the Conservative Party conference. And that is because they are the party of government at the moment. And that is where the decision makers are. And hopefully we can move ministers to actually encourage Steve Barclay and others who need to come to the negotiating table to actually come and talk to us. We'll get to Steve Barclay and he's got a speech today. And we'll get to that in just a moment because I'd like to get your view on it. But I also wanted to give you the opportunity to just reflect on perhaps something we haven't heard this time around as much maybe others have if they've got

doctors in their life that they talk to but is it difficult for a doctor to be on the picket line how would you describe that because it's it's quite a specific job in terms of what you're not doing and what you have signed up to do in terms of patients? So it is very difficult for doctors to be on a picket line. None of us want to be taking strike action. But I think what it goes to is the strength and depth of feeling amongst doctors and how worried we are for the NHS and for the patient care we can provide now and in the future. So this is not just about the future, but it's also about now and the staffing crisis we have now.

And it has reached the point where doctors feel so strongly that it is a position that we have found ourselves in and feel so strongly that we are pushed to be on a picket line. A couple of years after the pandemic, do you think the public are with you? They were out on their doorsteps banging for you of an evening every week then. Where do you think the public are now? So the surveys that we've had so far certainly indicate that the public understand the reason why we're striking and that we continue to have their support, which is good to hear.

And also the surveys that we've had in the recent weeks would definitely indicate that they recognise that the government is the source of the barrier to progressing this dispute forward and finding a resolution. But as you say, no further strike planned at the moment in a hope for discussion with the government. I won't stop you for too much longer before going to Manchester for that rally to, as you say, get the attention of the party of government. But on that, Steve Barclay is talking this morning about the health service. As I understand, it's not been released this part.

I don't know what he's going to say about the strikes, if anything at all. But the headlines, certainly in the Daily Telegraph this morning, has been around patient care and specifically around women's wards, women-only wards. Trans women will not be able to be treated on women's wards. Single-sex wards will continue. Just when you hear that and you look at the reality, you're talking about patient care and giving that care. Has that already started that trans women were on women's wards?

Had that already happened? I can't speak from personal experience because I work in a children's hospital. So I'm not sure about how things are on the ground in adult hospitals and as you've said that this has only been announced this morning so we've not had a chance to really look at the details of that but I think one of the things to highlight is that many hospitals have limited numbers of single patient rooms. And so sometimes those rooms need to be prioritised for very sick patients,

for infection control reasons, and also to provide dignity in dying. So I think we would need to have a look further at those details around these proposals, what the impact of that would be on hospitals. So the idea we understand that's going to be raised by the Health Secretary is that trans patients would be able to have their own accommodation or individual rooms. So I take your point, there's a limit on those rooms. And there's a question around infrastructure. But in 2021, NHS guidance said trans patients could be placed on single sex wards on the basis of the gender with which they identified. It's a move on that particular bit of guidance.

And I was trying to understand if that had already happened because guidance sometimes happens and then reality takes a while to catch up or what you made of the change, really. I'm afraid at the moment, without seeing any further detail on that, I can't really comment. You go, you're hearing there from someone on the picket line, Dr. Helen Neary, and also deputy chair of the BMA's consultant committee and consultant and need assist in paediatrics. On that point of single sex wards, many messages coming into that single sex spaces are vital in hospital, changing rooms, prisons and other facilities for women's safety, dignity and peace of mind. In hospital, it helps recovery by removing a source of anxiety, says Jane is listening. Good morning. Another single sex wards are imperative and mixed wards would stop me seeking medical help. Another single sex wards are extremely important. Patients are at their most vulnerable when in wards and need to be protected. Another message here says I have experience as an inpatient on a mental health ward. important patients are at their most vulnerable when in wards and need to be protected another

message here says i have experience as an inpatient on a mental health ward admissions can be lengthy and isolating trans men and trans women would be punitive it would be punitive in this way these changes why should they be placed in solitary confinement they've done nothing wrong i believe that single sex wards are appropriate and a trans woman should be placed in a women's ward and vice versa. Very disappointed by what Steve Barclay has said. He's going to say he's increasingly discriminatory and targeting trans people on mental health wards who are an incredibly vulnerable group. But another one here talking differently actually about what should be on the agenda and leading the agenda of the Secretary of State's speech today, which is going to happen shortly in Manchester at the Tory party conference. The Secretary of State is attempting to deflect from the real problems within the NHS by talking about transgender people.

There were no, quote, issues about transgender people until the Conservative Party invented them, reads this message. I have absolutely no issue about sharing space with trans women and nor do any of my friends. This is pure scapegoating and has been fabricated from the far right, as Penny describes, and the author of this message, as a distraction. I'm a straight, married, middle-aged woman who's 56 and I'm ashamed this is becoming acceptable conversation. And to a different point again again but along the similar lines

of the first part of penny's message barclays should be in a room with doctors not grandstanding about gender issues and a different one entirely i work as a nurse i support the doctor's strikes the government isn't listening to us we are heading down the same road dentists went and it's so sad we work so hard as a team and there are not enough staff to care for patients if you want excellent care you must pay wages that attract them and not be poached overseas and private companies by private companies excuse me nurses just shut up and took the five percent but many have no choice but to leave because they get paid more for the same thing well the bbc's health correspondent nick triggle is here. Nick, in terms of what to expect from the health secretary today, some of it's been trailed on the front page of the Daily

Telegraph. What can we expect? What do you know? It has. I mean, he will be taking the stage in about 40 minutes at the Tory party conference, and he's expected to announce a consultation on whether the NHS constitution needs to be more explicit about the protections in place for single-sex wards and same-sex intimate care requests. Patients have a right, a woman has a right to request care from a member of staff who is also a woman. And the health secretary will say there's growing concerns being raised that trans women who are biologically male are being allowed onto women's hospital wards now it's unclear and you've hinted at this just how widespread this is i know some of the people

emailing in were raising this we're not sure yet how big a problem this is in the nhs but he will say that there's more clarity is needed and he's to call it a common sense approach to better protect the privacy dignity and safety of patients he's also going to say that sex specific language has been fully restored to online nhs advice pages so that references to women are used in advice about things like the menopause and and diseases such as cervical and ovarian cancer um so this it sounds like will make a big part of of his speech later uh we're also expecting to talk about waiting times uh and it'll be interesting whether he addresses the issue of strikes. Obviously, we're in the middle of a three day walkout by both junior doctors and consultants today. Some of our listeners saying that's what they expect him to talk about.

That should be where the engagement is. On that point, the latest statement I can bring to you from the health and social care secretary is both. Steve Barclay says, I'm deeply disappointed and concerned by the further coordinated strike action, which poses continued challenges for the NHS and disruption for patients and means more will have vital treatment and care delayed. I urge unions to end their relentless strike action. Doctors have received a fair and reasonable pay rise, as recommended by the independent pay review body, which we've accepted in full.

This means doctors who started their hospital training this year are receiving a 10.3% pay increase, with the average junior doctor getting 8.8%, and consultants are receiving a 6% pay rise alongside generous reforms to their pensions, which is the BMA's number one ask. It didn't sound from what I was hearing from a member of the BMA there, the agreement was there on that being generous, Nick? Well, indeed not. I mean, the problem is the two sides are a long, long way apart. It's actually more than 100 days since they've sat down with the health secretary to even discuss pay. The British Medical Association for Junior Doctors uh so that pay rise the average of 8.8 bma is actually after a rise of 35 to restore pay uh to 2008 levels they've said the last 15 years has seen below inflation pay rises for junior doctors for consultants they haven't

been so explicit about exactly how much they want, although they have said above inflation, a figure of 12 percent has been floated. Obviously, they've been offered 6 percent. So it's very difficult to see how a resolution will be found to this dispute. The two sides aren't talking. They're a long, long way away in terms of what the government has given and what the BMA wants. And with no talks planned for the coming weeks, there's not much light at the end of this tunnel. Nick Triggle, thank you for putting us in the picture as we know it. And we will see very shortly, about 40 minutes, as Nick was saying, what the health secretary has to say, the health and social care secretary listening as the BBC's health correspondent.

In the meantime, I'm very much in the market for what you have to say about both of those issues, about the strikes. It is a female majority workforce, the NHS, and also whether you think single sex wards are important. Two issues there on the table for you to get in touch about. And you are doing so. Thank you. Keep your messages coming in on 84844. That's the number to text. Or you can email me through the Women's Hour website.

Or we're at BBC Women's Hour on social media. And my next guest, nicknamed the Taylor Swift of classical music by some. She's one of the world's most famous organists. Anna Lapwood is director of music at Pembroke College, Cambridge, and a TikTok star. You may have seen or heard her. This year, she was awarded

the prestigious Game Changer Award from the Royal Philharmonic Society and performed the prom, Late Night, Moon and Stars, on the, I hope I'm going to get this right, 9,999 pipes of the Royal Albert Hall's organ. She will correct me, I'm sure, in 2022. Just let me tell you another number.

Only 8% of organ recitals in the UK were given by women. Anna's got a new album out called Luna. And I believe you would like to change that. Good morning. Morning. Lovely to be here. Before we do talk, I think it's always wonderful if we can to hear a bit of music. And so let's just hear a bit of you in action.

Anna, what are we can to hear a bit of music and so let's just hear a bit of you in action and what we're listening to there uh this is flying from peter pan by james newton howard it's one of my favorite films when i was a kid and i've had quite a lot of fun recently transcribing some film scores for the organ and trying to use it to bring more people to the instrument is that important do you think to to have a familiarity with what you're listening to a hundred percent i mean if you think about the organ as an instrument more generally, if people haven't spent time in churches, it's a weird thing to listen to. And you kind of think, hang on a minute, what is this? And so making sure that at least one element of what they're hearing is familiar, I think can really, really, really help sort of demystify the whole thing

and maybe bring people to some of the other fantastic music written for the instrument. What do you love about it? Oh, I mean, what's not to love? It's like a big toy box. And when you're playing, I mean, that's the organ of the Royal Hospital School in Suffolk. And when you're playing there, you can hear it from the village. You're not just playing something, a little kind of confined instrument. You're playing an entire building that starts to shake the walls, the windows, everything about it. It's pretty spectacular.

Do you get annoyed if people ever ask you about, is it like a piano? I don't get annoyed because I think, like, why should we expect people to know? It's got keys, but, but you know it's very different obviously I'm just saying I wonder the sort of the education around it yeah I think yeah it is a it's a sort of common misconception that it's basically like a giant piano and actually there are huge differences I mean an organ note can go on indefinitely if you hold it down it never dies away it's not kind of touch sensitive in the same way a piano is. Like if you hit it harder, it will sound the same volume. There are all sorts of differences.

You've got a full pedal board. So you're playing melodies with your feet as well. It's kind of like... It's a whole body workout. Yeah. And sort of piano on steroids, I think. That's where we're going. And you're very good, which I think is also important in your mission to get more people to know about the organ or perhaps consider it, and especially women.

You have this hashtag, play like a girl. Tell us about that, because you seem part of your talent, apart from being able to play the instrument, of course, but is to communicate about it as well. What is it that you're trying to do when it comes to women and the engagement with organs? Well, the organ world has historically been a pretty male dominated place. I mean, you said that statistic that the Society of Women Organists dug up, which is that in 2022, 8% of organ recitals were given by women. And it's just trying to say to young women who are perhaps thinking of music more generally, this is a place that you belong to. And so we run the Cambridge Organ Experience for Girls. When we first ran that, it was 20 girls came along.

Most of them had never played the organ. This year we had more than 80 girls and 60% of them did already play the organ. So it's just trying to create opportunities and spaces within this amazing world that is the organ world, where they feel safe, where they feel nurtured, where they feel supported and welcome. And hopefully, in 10 years time, we won't be having this conversation. Why would you say safe or nurtured? What's off-putting? Well, I think if the male organists, they tend to start a little bit earlier, right? And so if, I don't know, a 13-year-old girl comes in and she's trying the organ for the first time

and she's playing next to a 13-year-old boy who's been playing for quite a long time, that can feel really terrifying, right? And there can be this nervousness of even trying it and taking the risk. Whereas if they're in an environment where actually a lot of them have never played before, some of them have, but they split off into groups, it means that they do feel like they can try it, have a go, maybe get it wrong, that's fine. And yeah, as I said, I think we all hope eventually we will not be having the conversation about gender in the organ world because it just won't be a problem anymore. But we still have a way to go before we get there.

Is it right you practice in the middle of the night? Yeah, a lot of us do, actually. Right, that's sociable. Well, there are many, many ways. The organ is not the most sociable instrument in the world. But yeah, when we're playing in these cathedrals and concert halls, they tend to be pretty busy in the day. It's a loud instrument

you can't disturb people and so the standard organist practice hours tend to be middle of the night at the Royal Albert Hall it's midnight till six. I love that I love knowing about other worlds things that are going on when people are asleep that's such a great image almost to have in your mind of organists across the country and across the world working at twilight well i mean if you're going to hours you're going to give a recital in a in a cathedral you tend to get given a key and you just are in there completely by yourself and it's a little bit spooky the lights are all off but it is you feel like you're sort of seeing a totally different side to these iconic buildings westminster abbey like that, where you know they have been so full of joy and life. And then it's just you filling it with sound.

If you hit the wrong note when you're playing the organ, can you cover it over quite easily? It's pretty loud. It's quite loud. I mean, I think as with any instrument, it's about how you kind of style it out. How you style it out. And wrong notes happen on every instrument. They happen. Wrong words happen on every instrument they have wrong words happen on the microphone let me tell you as well scripts at all sorts did i get it right the number of pipes in the yeah okay just checking i like to uh i like to get these things right if i

can facts matter you um you have got this new album and uh there's there's a lot on it how did you choose the tracks and i know we're able to play a little bit of a more of a clip of it but tell us um how did you come to put this together well it's all ultimately inspired by the night sky it's actually inspired by the Zambian night sky I spend about a month every year teaching music in Zambia and the African night sky is just a whole different level you stare up and it's like every second you see more stars coming into view so that was kind of the starting point but then I really wanted it to be an album that brought people in who might not have heard the organ before so yes we do have some standard organ repertoire we have some new pieces written for the instrument as well but I've also taken some of my favourite

piano pieces from when I was learning as a young player. I've taken some film soundtracks and written new transcriptions. So it's not just kind of what you might expect from an organ album. It's trying to do something slightly different. Let's hear a clip of Dreamland. Anna, what are you thinking about there? That's Dreamland. It's an incredible piece of music. It's by this composer, Christina Arikelian. She's a very good friend of mine.

We first met over tapas in London. Good start, it's always a good start, isn't it? We sat and we talked about music. And I just realised pretty quickly that we were getting on quite well and musically, as well as conversationally. She actually wrote it originally for piano and voice and then did an arrangement for piano that I heard her play in a concert raising money for for Ukraine and she played and it was like everyone in the room suddenly went into this like heightened emotional state where they were all kind of breathing and thinking together it happens sometimes in concerts but quite rarely and I just said to her please can I write an organ arrangement of that I love how it takes you right from the kind of softest, most intimate side of the organ to those thundering 32 foot reeds. So that was the moment you went, oh,

when the whole sort of headphones started to shake a little bit. I think it's always good to describe on the radio because we can't see. We can see each other, but everyone who's with us can't. And music has such a powerful effect, as you well know. The new album's called Luna, Anna Lapwood. Thank you very much for coming to talk to us and entertaining

some of my own ignorance about organs. And despite my mother-in-law playing the organ, I'm still learning. So there you go. She'll be very happy, I'm sure I mentioned that.

Anna, very good to talk to you. All the best with it. While you've been listening, many messages coming in. One here saying, I think single sex wards are extremely important to go back to what we're told the Health Secretary will be talking about shortly.

I was in a mixed ward in 2001 after having part of my colon removed with catheter drip standard tube and cut up right at my belly. I couldn't have moved from the bed unaided. My period started I couldn't pull the curtains around to sort myself out. A man was opposite me in another four in the six-bed bay with me.

It made an awful time even worse. And then another one here. I have no issue sharing wards with trans women. Privacy being respected at appropriate times is important. This is a totally different topic to prisons and refuges, as safety is a specific factor in those settings rather than tolerance or preference. It is a distraction, talking about what we're told the health secretary is focusing on, from the real problems faced by the NHS, says Sarah. And so it continues. Keep those messages coming and I will come back to them if I can. But let me tell you

about my next guest, a well-known name in Northern Ireland, Maria Carhill, a political columnist, but also a former Irish senator and a councillor in the north both for the SDLP, a party she has since quit. Maria grew up in a staunchly Republican family and community in West Belfast and at the age of 16 she says she was serially sexually assaulted and raped by a member of the IRA and was later subjected to months of meetings about that trauma by the IRA including being brought face to face with her alleged abuser. But in 2014, she waived her right to be anonymous after trying to bring that man to justice.

He's always denied the charges and his trial collapsed. But Maria has been relentless in her campaign to expose those Republicans who abused their power over her and to get an apology for the way she was treated from senior Sinn Féin politicians. The stories of which are all in her new book, Rough Beast, My Story and the Reality of Sinn Féin. And I should say this book comes at a time, just to put it in context, where Sinn Féin is the largest party in Northern Ireland and its leader, Michelle O'Neill, will be First minister when and if that power sharing agreement is

resumed at Stormont. Maria Carhill, good morning. Good morning Emma, how are you? Well I think there's a lot to go through here and you've put it all together in a book and I know that's important in itself which I'll come to, a point I'll come to in a moment, but for our listeners who may not be as familiar with Northern Irish politics and society, could you describe the extended family you grew up in and your links here? Yeah, sure. I grew up in, well, my immediate family wouldn't have been very political, but my extended family were. My great uncle, Joe, was the chief of staff at one time of the Irish Republican Army, the IRA. My grandfather was interned three times by the British government without charge um you know my father had eight brothers and one sister it was a big large family they grew up in an area in Ballamurphy where I think it's fair to say most of the housing estate

would have naturally gravitated towards support for the the IRA um you know post 69 so very much a Republican area I went to my grandparents house at the weekend my paternal grandparents and i had more freedom there so i grew it was an insular self-sufficient community i enjoyed it you know and i think obviously coming from the family that i came from which was a respected family unit within that area i mean i describe it in the book as almost seeping in through your DNA, republicanism and radicalisation. And what you've done since with using your voice has been then, in some ways, all the more striking and with some of your experiences. For those who haven't seen the book or seen an image of it online, it does have a very arresting cover. It's you,

if I can describe it, looking pretty distressed and a whole array of microphones being thrust in your face what why did you pick that well i had a choice of two and i felt that that one that was the that particular photograph was taken after a meeting with enda kenny who at that stage was the t-shirt the prime minister of ireland and when i came out, obviously, I think what that does is explain perfectly the tumult that I was thrown into, if you like, as an abuse victim who waived anonymity. You know, it was a huge story north and south. I found it very difficult to deal with. I waived anonymity on the BBC NI Spotlight programme with Jennifer O'Leary. It was a fantastic team. They treated me with care. But after that, I had no way of knowing

what was going to happen. And the Sinn Féin party effectively said that they believed I was abused, but they refused to say that they believed that I was also put through an IRA investigation. And then it became a political story. So to go back to your question, I think that image just summed up perfectly where I was at that particular point in time and how difficult it was actually. You know, I think sometimes people think, oh, this abuse survivor or victim, we have their anonymity and it's quite easy to do. It's a very, very difficult place to be. And I think that that encapsulated for me how difficult it was. Yes. I mean, you also say in the book, there's a sentence, there's nothing worse from the point of view of a political party than an angry, hurt, articulate woman with a forensic memory. It's fair to say, I'm sure you would have more to say than this, but that you've been a thorn in the side of Sinn Féin for years now.

I think so. And I think that's also an unfortunate place to be you know post me too when people were coming forward and telling their stories of abuse we knew much how to treat abuse victims much better I went public in 2014 and I had all sorts or all manner of things to have to deal with you know I had a huge amount of online abuse which is still continuing I had to be in the public domain repeatedly you know to put it in context I took three days off work I didn't get back to work until six months later so it was a huge chunk out of my life and a huge commitment and I think any institution that is facing a female who has been through an experience like that will learn very quickly that you kind of refuse to just shut up and go away

and once my experiences once people started to cast out of my credibility my stubbornness took over and you know I do have a forensic memory unfortunately the reason that I have one is because the trauma buried it deep into the recesses of my brain so every time that I speak about it you know all of those experiences come back up again and I think that was difficult for a political party any political party to counteract you know but having said that Emma you know there were things and I write about it in the book the way the Sinn Féin party approached this issue was quite different from other political parties like for one one example they prepared a briefing note for their members who may have been asked

questions then about it later on social media and it's included in the pages of the book and one of the questions that they they wrote out for the party and told them how to answer was do you believe Maria Cahill I don't think that's acceptable for any political party or any institution when an abuse victim comes forward with their experiences so I think it was interesting for me at a cool remove to look back over those types of things and to document exactly what happened from the point in which I went public. I mean I'm mindful of the fact what you just said about how this is in your mind and how it feels to talk about it and go over it and what it does to you because you're now promoting this book but I imagine part of it so I'm just aware of that as we're talking

I mean you of course wanted to come onto the programme today and you are promoting your book, but at the same time, was that part of the reason for writing the book? So it's somewhere. Yes. And I have to say, thank you for recognising that because you're the first interviewer that actually has got that issue. It's very difficult. Yes, because obviously I want people to buy the book. I want them to read the book and I'm very grateful for the platform to be able to speak about it but I found it really difficult to do some of the writing I wrote in 2012 when my court cases were ongoing just as a method of getting rid of some frustration you know I was living in Derry with my young child at the time so you know really

it was a lonely place to be and that's what I did I sat and wrote but I was originally asked by the publisher actually to write a different book so the publisher contacted me my editor Niamh Belton who's a great man asked me would I write a political analysis of the Sinn Féin party which I could have done I write political columns all the time but I would have been untrue to myself. You know, I needed to write this story down from A to Z from the point in time when I was 16, being abused on a sofa in Balamurfey, right to today, I suppose, in terms of how I'm still being treated by the organisation, the Republican movement as a whole, if you like.

But it's a very difficult place to talk about it. I find writing it much easier. I find reading it really traumatic to do. And my parents actually, you know, they've taken it in very small chunks. I don't think they'll read the whole book from start to finish because, you know, it doesn't just affect the victim, it affects the entire family unit too. And I think that's a very difficult place for them to be. Sorry, all I was going to say was I often wonder about that. You know, I often wonder when these books come,

if people close to those people can read them, you know, and how it affects them. I mean, I know that you were a part of that. That was part of the Spotlight programme. That was your story. In the book, are you okay just to talk a little bit about the abuse, the alleged abuse here? Because it is, for some people who don't

know your story, it is a central part of this. Is that okay? Absolutely. You know, one of the things that I did with the book, which was slightly different, I mean, I could have put page after page after page of horrendous experiences in relation to the abuse into it. I deliberately chose to put as small a snippet as possible so that people could understand the trauma but I was very conscious that perpetrators sometimes seek out such material in order to re-abuse others and I didn't want to be responsible for that

so I do talk about the first incident and some of the things that I remember afterwards, you know, so I'm also saying alleged because he's always denied the charges and the trial collapsed and he was found not, just to make it clear. Yes. And so just to make that clear. But the detail that, you know, you don't need to give all of it,

but I think it's important just to give some of the detail that you do share in this book, because you say, you know, we should say you volunteered as a young woman for Sinn Féin. You've mentioned some of the family connections there about your community and this kind of being seeped in and your family being steeped in this politics and what was going on at the time. But you say you were abused aged 16 by a man close to your family, a senior IRA member. What can you say about that and what it did to you at that time? And now looking back at it as an older woman? Well I think the very first thing is that I pretended to be asleep. I took a split second decision which dictated the rest of my life for a number of reasons. I was petrified I suppose,

I was also embarrassed. I knew immediately who it was and I you know had just turned 16 actually, I turned 16 in May and this would have been July 1997. So the summer months in between GCSE exams and A-level exams. And then, you know, immediately after it, you know, I took another split second decision. I went into the bathroom and I washed. I wanted to wash them off. Obviously, I wanted to wash the memory off too. So there then was a cool remove.

You know, I didn't know what to do I got up the next day you know this happened obviously in the middle of the night and I had been telling myself through the abuse I get up I go in my grandmother lived next door I go in next door and I tell somebody and it'll be okay but in actual fact when faced with it I couldn't do it and that meant then that I became trapped in a cycle not of my making where I went back to that particular house over and over you know for a period of a year for a number of reasons you know I was conscious there were other young people coming in and out of that house but also I felt like damaged goods so I thought stupidly that if it was happening to me it wasn't

happening to someone else and in actual fact, other victims or alleged victims did come forward afterwards and alleged abuse against that individual. So, you know, it's devastating. I had to get up and go to school every day. I had to try and live life as normally as possible. You know, I had to also this kind of secret then became buried within. And I then became complicit in keeping it if you like you know and in every incident of abuse I kept my eyes shut I wanted him to think you know that I was asleep because I didn't even want to face the fact that my abuser knew what he was doing to me and that if there's anything that explains just how insidious abuse is that maybe is it you know

I just couldn't face it and then the choice again was taken away from me when the ira came um i had confided because i couldn't cope in women that i trusted and then a year later the ira um obviously then and still an illegal military organization came calling and took me uh repeatedly through a series of and i'm using inverted commas here meetings because they said they had to investigate they had become aware of it um and that the first investigation culminated in them bringing me into a room with my alleged abuser um to read our body language to see who was telling the truth and just also um in 2017 i had a diagnosis of asperger's so i didn't know

that at the time obviously but i was very very frightened in terms of looking at my own body language and how I was reacting to this man, because I was put in the position then where I felt I had to prove that I had been telling the truth. But can you imagine how frightening that was for someone who didn't read human cues the same way other people did to then be placed in a room with your alleged abuser and three members of the IRA,

where he is allowed then to shout at you tell you you're a liar you know like I don't think I can ever explain it effectively it was a horrendous and appalling place to be in but I'm in a much better place now and you know I'm able to write about it which is good you know I'm able to talk about it too it still obviously has an impact i have difficulty in sleeping um you know but i have a much better life now than i ever could have probably dreamed of back then in fact back then i didn't think that i was going to come through an ira investigation i thought i was going to be killed so you know there's always a bonus somewhere and i think if anybody takes any type of meaning from this book and I hope they do you know yes there are parts of it which are horrifying for people to read um but also there if you take it in the round as a whole you know I never thought when I was 16 in Ballamur Fee being abused that I would ever you know be a senator in the Irish Parliament that I would ever sit in

Lisburn Council that I would write you know that I would come out of Lisburn Council, that I would write, you know, that I would come out of it, you know, mostly, I was going to say unscathed, you'll never be unscathed, you know, but I have a good life. I have a lovely child and, you know, we spoke about her last time. I was on, she's 13 now, you know, she was pregnant when I made my police complaint.

So it just, I think there is a level of commitment expected from abuse victims when they go into the criminal justice process. And I had a horrendous experience there too. But I've now come out the other end of it, hopefully. I've written about it. And people can make their own minds up when they read the book. They can.

The book is called Rough Beast, My Story and the Reality of Sinn Féin. Maria Coyle, thank you for coming back onto Women's Hour. You mentioned our previous conversations which people can look up as well and as you say they can read what you found very therapeutic in some ways to put down on paper and be able

to share and just to clarify Sinn Féin says it's no longer linked to the IRA and quote the IRA have now left the stage. Maria Carhill there, you can look up, as I say, our previous conversations, which also link to some of these stories and also that particular documentary Spotlight that Maria was talking about. Now, many people are familiar with the names of suffragettes such as Emmeline Pankhurst, Emily Wilding-Davidson, women who were regularly arrested and imprisoned in England

in pursuit of the female vote. But how is your Scottish suffragette history? I'm asking because Glasgow Women's Library, the only accredited museum of women's history in the UK, that's a very interesting fact, has been bringing these stories to life for the last 32 years through donated artefacts, research and exhibitions. But today, it's diving into new territory by bidding for the first time in an auction.

The library's been fundraising to bring a piece of Scottish feminist history back home. Let's find out what it is with Sue John, the Director of Operations at the museum, who's joining me live from the Highlands, where I believe you're on your holiday. Sorry to interrupt. Hello, Sue. I am. Good and thanks Emma yes I am on holiday so it's not a usual day at the office in any way shape or form today because it's not very often I'm I'm about to bid on such an important item of history in a Bonhams auction so yeah um good luck what are you bidding for And don't wave your arm at the wrong moment.

Oh, well, yes, exactly. It's online, which is good. And this is a very important hunger strike medal. And it was given to a very active suffragette called Maud Joachim. And as you said in your introduction, you know, it's often the case that very important and active suffragettes aren't often names that roll off the tongue. And we are still bringing many of these names into more public knowledge. Maud Joachim was amazing. She was born born in 1869 in London, so she wasn't Scottish. But she was very active from 1907 when she joined the Women's Social and Political Union and became a militant suffragette. She was arrested and imprisoned several times, first of all in February 1908,

and then most significantly related to this hunger strike medal. In October 1909, she was in Dundee and she was charged in Dundee for conducting herself in a disorderly manner and committing breach of the peace when she disrupted, along with four others, four other suffragettes, including Adela Pankhurst, a meeting that was being held by Winston Churchill. Dundee was his constituency at the time. So she was fined, well, given an option, she could either be fined two shillings or spend 10 days in prison.

She, of course, opted for prison, released after four days, hunger strike. And this is really significant because this group were among the first groups of suffragettes to go on hunger strike in Scotland. So it really is a very important piece of history. And we, well, before that, Amod worked in Aberdeen as well. So she had a history of activism in Scotland. And at Glasgow Women's Library, we fundraise all the time, but all our fundraising always goes towards our work, the work with the communities that we work with. So we've never had an acquisitions budget. Everything in our museum, library and archive collection, as you say, we're the only accredited museum of women's history in the whole of the UK. Even though there are very, very significant collections, we're the only accredited museum and we're a recognised collection of national significance. But we felt so strongly that this medal really belongs at Glasgow Women's Library

that we launched a fundraising campaign and so far around 500 people have donated. And I think this really shows such a desire for Glasgow Women's Library to secure this medal to come to come to our collection. We've received a grant. Well I was going to say I mean it's going to go for thousands that's what the expectation you don't you don't know who you're bidding against I presume. No no we don't. And I suppose all hope is that you do manage to secure it. I'm looking at a picture of this this medal it's got No, weical women. So no medal saying that. But there you go. Those were the words. And you've raised this money, too, to try and get it.

And I suppose one thought is, have you got a contingency plan in place? If you don't secure it, what you could do with the funds? Yes, we have. We've said that all these donations will be ring fenced. Should we not be successful. They will all be ring-fenced and put towards securing an item or items in the future still related to the suffrage movement. And we're incredibly thrilled to have been contacted by several members of the Joachim family throughout this process to say that they really enthusiastically support Glasgow Women's Library in our campaign and they really want Maud's medal to come to Glasgow Women's Library. So that means the world. I bet. And we don't know who owns it at the moment. Do we or we do? Well, this is part of a collection of over 100 different lots that are going up for auction today.

So there's something for everybody. And it is called the Leslie Meese Collection. And this is somebody who I think was collecting suffrage memorabilia from the 70s onwards when these things, you know, were a lot more affordable. And it's a very recent phenomenon that this level of value has been given to suffrage, you given to suffrage items. Well, good luck with acquiring it. Thank you.

And if anybody wants to donate, please visit womenslibrary.org.uk and the donations page is there. Well, you've got it there and then you can go back to your holiday in the Highlands. I'm quite jealous of that. I feel like I can hear a Manchester accent there where I'm from as opposed to a Scottish one.

You're quite right, Jess. I hail from Manchester and I've been in Glasgow since 1989. Not picked up the accent so far. Well, good luck, Sue. We will follow what happens with this. Thank you for talking to us, Sue John there. Very exciting day indeed. Bidding online for a Suffragette medal to try and put it into the Glasgow Women's Library. They're the only accredited museum of women's history in the UK. Many of your messages coming in about our first discussion today around single sex wars. Thank you so much for those. So many, in fact. But a message here about our organists that we were hearing from before, not ours, but one of the

most famous organists at the moment. And somebody's saying, Dreamland, I've never heard it before. It hit me like a truck. Just wonderful, said Jules. Good morning to you. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Have you ever wondered who you really are? It clicked in my mind suddenly. I was like, why have I never done this? I'm Jenny Kleeman, a writer and journalist. In my new series, The Gift, from BBC Radio 4, I've been uncovering extraordinary truths that emerge when people take at-home DNA tests.

He said, what do you know? You don't even know that your father's black. So I'm like, Jeff, we got him. And he's like, what are you talking about? And I go, we got him. Obviously, it was completely unintended consequence of a gift. Join me as I investigate what happens when genealogy, technology and identity collide. Listen to The Gift on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.