Woman's Hour - Dogs of Lockdown; Teachers assaulted by pupils; Family reconciliation; Lady Mary Wortley Montagu

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

With the surge in people getting dogs during lockdown, Emily Dean, broadcaster and host of ‘Walking The Dog with Emily Dean’ joins Anita to discuss her shih-tzu called Raymond, the trend for ‘pandemic puppies’ and the unique relationship between women and their dogs.Newspaper reports from the weekend suggest that Prince Charles, Harry, William and Kate spent a couple of hours at Frogmore Cottage after the funeral of Prince Phillip on Saturday, presumably hoping to clear the air after what has been a turbulent time for the Royal family. Whatever your background - family rifts can be very painful, sometimes lasting years and often beyond anyone's memory of why they originally fell out. What should you do if you want to reconcile? How do you make that initial approach? Anita is joined by Dee Holmes, Family Counsellor with Relate and Mamta Saha, practising psychologist.More than fifteen thousand people have emailed their experiences of sexual harassment and assault in school as pupils or past pupils on the ‘Everyone‘s Invited’ website but what about assault by pupils towards teachers? We hear one female teacher’s experience of being sexually assaulted at school, and from Jennifer Moses the National Official for equality and training at the Teaching Union the NASUWT.300 years ago this month, Lady Mary Wortley Montagu deliberately infected her three year old daughter with a dose of smallpox – in other words she inoculated her – and was the first to do so in the West. Her role in the race to halt the spread of the virus was largely unacknowledged at the time. She should be recognised for the pioneer that she was says Jo Willett who has written her biography ‘The Pioneering Life of Mary Wortley Montagu’.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning all, we've got a packed show for you today. We're going to be talking about family bust-ups, or rather, how you reconcile after one. It's being reported that Prince Charles, William, Harry and Kate all went to Frogmore Cottage and spoke for two hours after the funeral of Prince Philip. So how do you begin to build bridges with your family after a major falling out? Is this something you've been through? How did you go about making amends? What are the first steps and how do you take that first

step when there's a ton of anger, resentment and sadness? Get in touch for the show. We are going to talk about something we do as a nation touch for the show. We are going to talk about something we do as a nation better than most others. We're going to discuss our pets this morning or more specifically, our dogs. I'm a new dog owner and can't quite believe how much love I have for my furry little scruff bag, even

when she's rolled around in fox poo. Neither me nor my husband have ever had a pet in our lives until last year when we got Raffy and we weren't the only ones who thought this was a good idea. 3.2 million of you decided to do the same. So how has your hound helped you get through lockdown? And how pampered is your pooch? You know you're just waiting for an opportunity to share the love.

And so many of you have already been getting in touch via Instagram and Twitter. Instagram, I've got a message here from abby who says uh luca wasn't a pandemic dog um but he got me through potential postnatal depression i was teetering on the edge of during lockdown i relocated had a newborn and then got locked down it wasn't easy but he would lick my tears away and guard me at night constantly telling me it would be all right and um sarah's been in via Twitter, said I had a major bereavement during the first lockdown. Minnie has been my lifeline. She's the best walking companion

as long as it's not raining and she's the best cuddly lap warmer. And Deborah says, I don't have a garden so I can't own a dog, but I started to borrow this little lady. Lovely little picture,

great ears. During lockdown, it was such a highlight and still is. I used to have a garden before I got a dog. If you would like to share your love for your your dog you can text women's hour 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate you can also contact us via social media at bbc women's hour on both instagram and twitter and pictures are more than welcome and of course

you can drop us an email on this subject or anything you hear today by going to our website now we've talked a lot in this programme about the Everyone's Invited website, a safe space where girls and women can talk about sexual abuse they've experienced. But what if you're a teacher who's been abused by a pupil? Well, we had an email from a listener who shared her experience with us, and we're going to share it with you and then discuss what teachers are saying about the abuse they encounter in the classroom. Is this something that's happened to you? you and then discuss what teachers are saying about the abuse they encounter in the classroom.

Is this something that's happened to you? Are you a teacher who's received abuse from pupils, sexist or racist or even been assaulted? What did you do about it? And how did your school deal with it? Please do get in touch with your story. And of course, we will keep you anonymous if you don't want us to reveal your identity. And have you ever heard of Lady Mary Wortley Montague? Well, if you haven't, you will in your identity. And have you ever heard of Lady Mary Wortley Montague? Well, if you haven't, you will in a bit. She was a radical pioneer, just the kind of woman we love on the show, and she had her children vaccinated for smallpox before anyone else in the West. While Edward Jenner was still a twinkle in his mother's eye,

we'll be discussing this remarkable woman and her life with the author of her new biography. But first, newspaper reports from the weekend suggest that Prince Charles, Harry, William and Kate spent a couple of hours at Frogmore Cottage after the funeral of Prince Philip on Saturday, presumably hoping to clear the air after what's been a turbulent time for the royal family. Whatever your background, family rifts, rows or estrangements can be very painful, sometimes lasting years and often beyond anyone's memory of why they originally fell out. Family estrangements occur frequently across cultures and religions for a multitude of complex reasons. But what if you want to try and reconcile? What should you do? What should you consider first?

And how do you make that initial approach? Well, I'm joined by Dee Holmes, family counsellor with Rel a month of saha practicing psychologist to discuss this further morning to you both welcome to woman's hour d let me come to you first if you're considering trying to reconcile what should you think through before you even make that first step um hello it's nice to be here this morning um i think you need to think about what you want to achieve, probably. And sometimes when people enter into trying to reconcile, it's because they want to sort of, you know, prove their point and be, you know, be in the right. So I think you've probably got to be approaching it with a feeling of this isn't about who's right or who's wrong or who's won. It's actually about let's move on from this. And I think when people are still in the space of proving their point, it's quite hard to have a reconciliation. It does, to some extent, have to be going to that phrase of drawing a line under things and moving on and saying, let's let's try and make it different in the future.

And let's each accept our part in what's happened. Even if we don't feel we're to blame, you know, everyone will have had a part in what's happened even if we don't feel we're to blame you know everyone will have had a part in it um a month i mean d's right isn't she but how do you how i mean everybody's probably got their little bit that they want to get in just to make their point when you get back together with that person or get into a room or make that phone call so how do you make sure you're not going to be doing that i think it's really important and foremost, to get people to check in. So, you know, what are you thinking and how are you feeling? And being able to listen with compassion, because it's very easy in those situations for them to get heated and for one

to regress and it just ends up being as bad as it was to begin with. So really making a commitment to hearing everybody out and saying, you know, what's going on? What are you thinking and how are you feeling? And then what you do is you get a great sense of where everybody is right now. And then I think it's very important to think about, well, where do we want to be as a family? What has been the thread? What has been the glue? What have been the values that have kept us together all this time that led us to this point? And I think when you can start having those sorts of conversations, the relationships evolve and move forward. Does the size and complexity of the family affect things, Mamta? I'm not sure about the size. I think it's really about,

you know, everybody's attitude. How is everybody, despite, you know, whether it's a family of three or it's a family of 10, how's everyone showing up? Are they showing up with a willingness and the ability to, and a desire to want to be able to reconcile and move forward? I think first and foremost, individually, that's the work that everybody has to do before they come to that table to have a discussion. And then if everybody is there in that capacity, you know, whether it's 25 people in conflict, and I've seen this in my work, whether it's 25 people in conflict, and I've seen this in my work, you know.

25 people in conflict? Yeah, absolutely, in conflict, in an organisational setting. But I mean, people are people, you know, and it's still kind of like a family. But if everybody is there with a willingness and a capacity to want to evolve and make it work and is uncomfortable with where things are right now, I believe it's possible. But you've got to do that work yourself. Dee, you're agreeing? Yes. And I think also it's interesting. I agree it's difficult to say what the size is and it's

the complexity, isn't it? But also I often think in families, there's a rift that might go on at the adult level. And children are often quite the innocent victims in that and they may not be aware of why there is this or why suddenly auntie or uncle or grandma isn't on their horizon anymore and I think that's that can often be quite a healing thing for families I think often parents perhaps might be in a place to think actually we don't want this to go on for our children you know and sometimes children when they become adults, can break that, can't they? They can sort of say, actually, this isn't my argument and I'm fed up with all this and I'm going to invite who I want to my wedding or whatever.

And they could all just come along and let's all be together. Yeah. Or they can go the other way where they just take the mantle and go, well, you know, my parents don't like your parents and we're going to, this cousin's going to carry this on. And if that is the case, if these are rifts that are historic going back years, how do you take that first step? What do you do? That is really difficult, I think. And I think that is, as we have been sort of saying, it is about somebody somewhere wanting to change that. And it being about that personal belief that actually

enough is enough and coming to it in a positive way um because you're right sometimes these carry on for generations and nobody knows where it started but they're just carrying on the mantle of it and just to build on d's point i really think it's important to know if you're in this situation and we've all been in these situations where you might not have the answer and you might not be feeling okay but you want to make it work so just calling the elephant and saying look haven't got all the answers here I'm still feeling a little bit upset or angry but what I do know is underneath all of that and say it in your own way I do want to move forward and I'd like us to move forward and just to bring it back to children I think children like sponges and if we think back to our childhood you pick up things from

people intuitively and and there's nothing more beautiful than seeing a child that you know has felt that healing in in rifts and relationships and seen it because it's great education for them as well to be able to see that people have had a fight and they might not have spoken for a while but actually they've made friends again and things are better you know if unfortunately if children then turn into adults and hold on to that uncle's horrible and I don't ever want to speak to him again I think that can be quite damaging for for children. And what about a woman's role in reconciliation is there any evidence to suggest that women are better at building bridges than men? Dee?

I think, I mean, I think sometimes it might be certainly in that family context, mothers who want to make it OK for their children and to make the family a sort of, you know, they're often the drivers of creating the family unit. And if they've come from a non-complex family into a complex one they might might well want to to make sure their little unit is is like the family of origin and likewise they if they've entered this easier family they may want to take that change I was thinking about this before and I was wondering if some of that is about touch that I think sometimes it's quite hard to say the words um if there's a lot to be said.

And as we were saying then, you know, things that you're not quite sure what you are going to say, but sometimes you can give someone a touch, whether it's a touch of a hand, a squeeze of a shoulder at some sort of event. And that can be something that perhaps women find easier to do than men. And so maybe that can sometimes be a first step that women might make in that situation. Mamtha, so, you know, you've given us some good sound advice already, you know, kind of swallow your pride.

I've been making notes. And kind of approach and say, you know, you want to build bridges, that you're ready, you're ready to kind of move forward, be the adult, I suppose. But once you've got there, once you've made contact, you've arranged to meet, what happens then? Do you go over old ground? I think it's super important to think about what went wrong in the first place without blame.

To say, look, when you did this, it made me feel like this. In the future, can we try and do this? And so, you know, it's almost like carving a new way forward creating a new path forward that puts into place without saying it explicitly so some boundaries around let's not let this happen again and what I found it personally and also professionally is that when people have those difficult vulnerable conversations that require heaps of courage actually that the relationship goes on to be solid and they're less likely to fall back into that place so it's just wanting to creating a vision for how you move forward is very important.

And Dee sometimes estrangements can be positive can't they or necessary for people? Yes I mean that's right I was thinking that that you know sometimes people can't make it work and sometimes they can feel that you know things in their family have't make it work. And sometimes they can feel that, you know, things in their family have been very negative for them, and they need to break away and make a new path for themselves and, you know, move on from negative relationships. And I think that is important to bear in mind, you know, it is about thinking, where am I? What do I want to achieve? And actually, will I be able to achieve this? And sometimes you, sadly, you can't if the other people aren't willing to meet you in that place.

You need to cut your losses sometimes. Cut your losses. And what if you've gone through everything, all the advice that you've given, Mumtha, you know, you've kind of made contact, you're there, you're willing to be open and have that conversation. But worst case scenario, it's just an absolute disaster and you end up with a worse situation than before. What do you do?

Yeah, I think you need to ask yourself a really important question, which is what's at stake if I continue to invest in this relationship that's making me feel worse? And you have to preserve your own self-care, your own self-love and your own boundaries to protect your heart

because you can then be in a place where you're constantly trying to rectify that relationship and not making any progress. So you do need to trust your intuition and listen to yourself when it's feeling harder than it actually needs to be. Mum Thandie, thank you very much for speaking to us this morning. If you would like to get in touch or share your stories, maybe you're estranged from your family, you can email us via the website and we've had a text in from someone saying i from charlie says i've experienced a mother-daughter rift with my eldest daughter which i've been unable to mend since 2014 well i hope some of that advice has helped you this morning now when the uk went into lockdown in march last year a lot

of us started working from home sparking an increase in puppy purchases. A total of 3.2 million households in the UK have added a pet to their families since the start of the pandemic. But 5% of those who bought a pet during the pandemic have already given it up. With that being said, the vast majority said their pet had helped their mental health. Well, Emily Dean is a broadcaster and host of Walking the Dog with Emily Dean and author of Everybody Died So I Got a Dog and she joins us now. Very good morning Emily. Why did you decide to get a dog? Good morning Anita and Raymond says good morning as well. Good morning Raymond, beautiful. He keeps very rock star hours. This is very early for him. He likes a lion Raymond. I,, I got a dog as a result of multiple losses, essentially, that I'd had in my family. And so I really do kind of relate to people getting pandemic puppies in some ways,

because it's during times of instability, you crave what a dog represents. A dog represents routine. Dogs also represent just structure and unconditional love, really. So I understand that. And he's utterly changed my life. And particularly, I got him, he's four, but for some reason I lie about his age. I don't know why I do this. What do you say? Is he older or younger? Well, I found myself, he's actually four. So this is a world exclusive for Woman's Hour. He's four. And I tell people on walks, he's three because he's very small.

And I think they'll judge him less harshly if they think he's three. I don't know why this is. But I genuinely find, you know, like a lot of people, it's been quite tough, I've found, during the last year. Just, you know, I wasn't able to see anyone on Christmas Day. I was spending Christmas Day alone. And that could have been a really difficult day. I had the best day ever.

Because Raymond woke me up at a reasonable hour. As I say, he keeps rock star hours. But he woke me up by licking my face, leaping around on my bed. And his whole sort of demeanor was, there's leaves to be kicked around. There's food to be eaten. You know, dogs have such a happy heart and they start every day with a clean slate. They're mentally rebooted. And I think, particularly in times like this, I think that's really important.

I can see Raymond, but obviously a lot of people can't. Just, oh, beautiful. What type, but obviously a lot of people can't. Just, oh, beautiful. What type, what breed is Raymond? Very well behaved. Well, it's a good question, Anita. What breed is Raymond? I've been assured he's a Shih Tzu. I've been told he looks like an Ewok. I've had a mop. I've had a Muppet, a Tasmanian devil. Ed Miliband said he looked like a toupee. Oh, my God. So I have, I think he's a Shih Tzu. Very well groomed toupee.

Do you think there is a special relationship between dogs and women? People talk about them being man's best friends, but I know I've got a very special bond with my little Rafi. What do you think? Yes, do you have a Whippet? She's a Bedlington Whippet, a little lurcher cross. So she's a shaggy haired whippet. And I could talk about her all day, but it's not about me and Raffi.

Okay. No, but I will be insisting on it. It's pictures or it didn't happen. I want those often. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, she's got a huge Instagram following and she's changed my life for the better. You know, absolutely incredible.

But do you think there is a special bond? I think she's definitely got a different bond with me than she has with my husband. I'm really glad you raised that because I've always felt that women have really amazing relationships with dogs. And I think we've suffered a bit from representation, really. Just in films and culturally in general,

there's this idea of the sort of, it's the idea of the noble prairie cowboy with his faithful dog. And what do we get stuck with? You know, it's, you'll just see at the beginning of the rom-com, there's the establishing shot of the woman coming into the flat with a cat meowing to establish that she's single and desperate and needs saving. And I kind of think actually what that's possibly to do with is that we see dogs as action animals they're activity based they're extroverts they're out there doing to the world whereas we see cats as languishing on pink satin couches at home so I think it's really important I I love the idea I

think women do have incredible relationships with their dogs and it's not a case of you know I've often had as someone who's who's child free and'm not married, I often get asked, is he a child substitute? To which I say, no, he's a dog. And then I sort of feel when people say that to me, I understand that. But I think it's because sometimes, we see that relationship as a consolation prize, you know, oh, it didn't, you woke up at 40, you didn't didn't have a kid you thought I better get a chihuahua it's not really like that and I think these tropes we have sometimes if you own an animal and you're a woman it can be a bit that you have two tropes to choose from it's either Kathy Bates in misery or Legally Blonde and I kind of think no it's possible to have a really functional,

non-neurotic, non-codependent relationship with a dog. I'm saying that. I mean... Yeah. Although Raymond doesn't have any bows or isn't in a jumper. Are you somebody who dresses Raymond? Because there's a lot of people making a lot of money from very nice, expensive dog gear. I did put Rafi in a jumper once, but my dad just looked at her and went that dog's embarrassed and that was the end of it it's not very yorkshire to

have your dog in a in a joke in a jacket or a jumper oh i'd love to see that though no i raymond has one costume which is a halloween costume that's it that's his one night here but no i don't tend to do the sort of you know bows and coats and cars and things for him but that's his one night of the year but no I don't tend to do the sort of you know bows and coats and cars and things for him but that's only because I think with him he's just you know he's my little he's my little companion he's my faithful friend but I think again that's something people often associate that people will say to me oh you spoil your dog you pamper your dog and I think it's so interesting that it's we wouldn't say that to a man you would just say oh you spoil your dog you pamper your dog and I think it's so interesting that it's you even say that to a man you would just say oh you really love your dog that that isn't that touching and

nice and so yeah I I think if loving him more possibly than anything I've ever known on the planet is spoiling him then I'm happy to spoil him he's just he's incredible you know he's really changed my life so true that feeling of love I have for my dog I didn't even know I had in me um there has been a surge of lockdown puppies as we mentioned and it's not working out for everybody why do you think that is and what should people be careful about when before getting a dog well you know Anita as a as a dog a fellow dog owner, I feel so smug saying that. Me too, I know. It's a whole new world for me and I love it.

Welcome to the club, the Smug Dog Owner Club. I tend to feel what can happen when people get a dog is that you forget it's essentially, it's a toddler that never grows up. For the rest of its life you're responsible for you know eating feeding it cleaning up after it arranging daycare um taking it to the vet all this kind of stuff and I think it's easy to forget that it's such a huge responsibility so but you know as I say I do sympathize and I understand why people

rushed into to get dogs during the pandemic. I think what's really important is socializing, because obviously, that's something that most dogs, you can do that on a gradual basis. And it's about taking dogs to meet other dogs and having visitors come to the home. And obviously, that hasn't been happening during lockdown. So I know that's something that a lot of vets and you know dog trainers are recommending is to really introduce puppies incrementally to external stimuli so they've recommended things like you should be sort of playing all sorts of play the radio play radio four yes if I have to leave the house this is a nice plug for you, I put Radio 4 on because it's nice, calm voices for Raymond to listen to.

So it's things like that. I often think the best thing to remember with dogs is it's sort of quite basic human psychology. What would you like in that situation? If you'd have been cooped up inside and you were being reintegrated, you'd want to do it gradually. the same principle applies really and we've just had an eat with i mean we've having we've got tons of emails coming in and instagram and twitter and all the rest of it and but sue has said please don't forget about all the stolen dogs out there and being aware that many desperate owners are looking for their dogs who've been taken only

recently i've realized how bad this is it's very true websites selling them like a stolen sprocker spaniel stolen from his owner in december um dogs are lost and i just want to highlight this it's true because they are very expensive because of the huge demand the prices have gone up and there is a problem with dogs being stolen isn't there yeah and i have been really i've been reading about that a lot and it's so hard to know isn't it whether there's sort of hysteria and it becomes a slightly sort of a media story that that people like. But I do think there have been a genuine rise in cases. So I am so vigilant about Raymond. I mean, I probably am. I'm saying all this sort of stuff about, you know, representations of women and dogs. And I'm the nightmare, possessiveive protective mother I've turned into but it is something I discuss with other dog

owners and that's the other thing that's really nice when you encounter other dog owners is that relationship you have where you just it encourages you to be much more open and friendly and chat at a social at a social distance we're responsible and and just chat about you know stuff like that and I was talking to it all going on I bumped into a great Dane who Raymond's good friends with I ran into the other day and she was giving me really good advice saying oh if you get a lead um you should get a chain lead because they can't cut through those because that's something that's apparently been happening so I was picking up tips from her but yeah I think it again it's like having a child.

What would you, you know, those same measures that you would put in place to protect your child, I think it's important to remember, you know, to try and implement that with the dog as well. Yeah, Emily, and we know that, you know, you've talked and you've written a book about how Raymond helped you get through a really tragic time in your life

where you lost your sister, your mum and your dad within three years. I just want to end with this message we've had in via Twitter. It said, our son Daniel had always wanted a dog. He was diagnosed with cancer last July. After an 11-week stay in hospital, we found a rescue dog. Edgar was put in an animal shelter by his previous owners after the end of the first lockdown. Daniel sadly passed away in February, and we feel that not only did we give him a dog, but he in effect gave us Edgar to us and helped us come to terms with all that has happened. Edgar gives me a reason to get up in the morning

and I thank Daniel so much for that. Oh, that's actually making me well up. I know, me too. That's such an incredibly touching, moving thing to hear. And I'm so happy that's brought them happiness because yeah that that was certainly my experience that getting a dog managed to turn the worst of times into if not the best of times just the most comforting of times you know and I think I think dogs have a happy heart and just having that presence in your house that happy heart is

just it's amazing it's amazing what a tonic it can be absolutely emily thank you so much for speaking to us this morning keep your bye bye raymond have a lovely day you can go back to bed now uh keep your thoughts and feelings about your dogs coming through and send those pictures via twitter now since the website everyone's invited was set up as a safe space for girls and women to talk about sexual abuse they experienced or are experiencing at school, more than 15,000 people have left accounts there. But what about assault of teachers by pupils? According to the NASUWT Teaching Union, 38% of its members have been verbally abused and 10% threatened with violence. We had an email from a listener we're calling Lisa who said she thought long and hard before contacting us. She was a

full-time teacher in a position of responsibility with more than 15 years experience when she was sexually assaulted in a room at school where a fight had broken up. She found herself suddenly alone with a group of 15 to 16 year old boys when one of them assaulted her, witnessed by the others. The attack was taken seriously by the police and a restraining order was placed on the boy who was already known to them and he was excluded. However, she says the school's response to her was lacking. Her words are voiced by an actor. My experience was harrowing but my employers did not ask me once how I was. I was off the following day as I was so upset. The headteacher phoned me but only to check when I was returning to school though she did tell me that the boy would be permanently excluded. My headteacher never approached me about the actual incident itself. Foolishly, after just one day

off, I returned to get on with my job. I had no support and looking back, I still can't believe how badly treated I was. I suffered panic attacks and became increasingly depressed. I was verbally abused by a number of pupils relating to the assault. It was disgusting. Eventually, I couldn't cope any longer and needed time off due to stress and depression. To cut a long story short, what I wanted to raise was awareness of the fact that there is no support for teachers in school. Leadership, including governors, want to sweep

it under the carpet and it has to remain secret so as not to discredit the school. The CPS wouldn't proceed with the prosecution due to lack of evidence and witnesses, even though I was deemed a credible witness. The pupils would not grass on each other and the CCTV camera wasn't working. This has had a huge impact on me emotionally and health-wise. I was conveniently made redundant due to a restructure and didn't work for two years until finding employment at another school. I have continued to suffer from anxiety and depression. I'm not the same person as before the attack. It has also had a major impact on me and my family due to loss of earnings over the two years when I was unemployed

and subsequent years as being a classroom teacher without leadership responsibilities. This also affects my future pension as it will be much lower than I'd anticipated when I started working and I thought I could retire at 60. There's nothing in place to support teachers from the government. No one wants to address the problem of sexual harassment and assault from pupils towards teachers. Even though I got support from my union, I feel that there should be clear guidelines in place nationally to support schools and staff. Well, that was the experience of a listener we're calling Lisa, who emailed us and we voiced the email by an actor. Listening to that was Jennifer Moses, the National Official for Equality in Training at the teaching union, the NASUWT. Jennifer Mourning, I mean, that assault happened in 2009,

but members of your union say they've been both verbally and physically abused by pupils. What sorts of stories are you hearing? First of all, thank you for having me on the show and for addressing this really important issue. That story that we've just heard of that woman teacher, unfortunately, is a story that we have heard at the NACWT for many years. And it's the fact that she got very little support in the school is something that we also hear about. We at the NASUWT have been looking at the issue of violence and harassment and bullying in schools for a number of years.

And what we found over the years is that when we've actually looked at the nature of that bullying and harassment, it has become increasingly sexualised. So we have been surveying our members around asking them about their experiences, if they have any of harassment and whether there is a sexualised nature to it. And what we found in our research is that there was an actual growing rate of sexual harassment within schools, particularly with the advent of modern technology through social media, the fact that mainly pupils were using social media to sexually harass teachers in schools. Our latest stats, the ones that you have reported, as discussed at our annual conference this year,

shows that the problem has not gone away. What jumps out from that listener's email particularly is that the head teacher said they wanted to brush it under the carpet. Why would that happen in a school? Well, there is this veil of secrecy that has surrounded sexual harassment or any forms of harassment in the school for fear of the school having a label, for fear of the school being, you know, labelled as having a problem of harassment, particularly of a sexualised nature.

Teachers who report it are being told, you know, you're the ones who are in power, you're the ones, you know, this is probably just a bit of banter. You know, it may have been a prank. They should ignore it. Often they are put off from reporting it. And when they do report it, either nothing happens or their stories are not believed um we've had an email in from one of our listeners saying my sister teaches science up to 18 year olds in a state provincial school she recently had sexual references made in

class to her body by a girl that gave rise to laughter in the class and some scowls from others and when she escalated she was totally unsupported by the school on the basis of the girl being on the sem register though this was due to family circumstances. So this gave rise to more incidents within school, presumably because it was unchecked and it made it worse because it was escalated with no penalty. So what, if anything, can be in place to deal with this type of assault to make sure that schools, the teachers, the head teachers are actually taking these things seriously? Well, we've always advocated that schools should be a safe environment for pupils as well as all the staff that are in the school. It should be an environment of respect where there are sanctions

that are employed for anyone who experiences harassment of any form, whether it's a pupil or a member of staff. Sadly, what we find is whilst there are rightly protections in there for pupils because staff have a safeguarding responsibility, when it comes to staff, often it's ignored or, as I said, their stories are not believed or no actions are taken. So what we have argued for is one, that school leaders get the necessary training to understand what their legal obligations are particularly, I mean

they do have duty of care legal obligations are, how to train staff or ensure all staff are trained around appropriate behaviours and that there are appropriate sanctions in place in the school to protect all staff from all forms of harassment, whether it be of a sexualised nature, racist, homophobic, transphobic or against disabled people, because we have to recognise that harassment has to be seen through an intersectional lens as well. And if there is a teacher listening, and I'm sure there are,

who is worried about any abuse they may have suffered, what advice would you give them? What should they do? And if they know that they're not going to be supported through the school? Well, obviously, as a representative of a trade union, the first thing we'd have to say is definitely to contact their trade union and to make sure that it is reported.

The school should have a procedure within the school to report it because schools, as I say, have a duty of care to look after all their staff. Report it to their trade union and also not to be silenced, not to accept the fact, what we're often told that this is normal behaviour. Normalising and trivialising sexual harassment is no good for anyone, whether it's for people or for the school environment in itself. So definitely the first thing is to report it. Report it to the school, there should be someone in leadership that they should report it to, but also to their trade union. And the trade union should and would take action on their behalf. And we've had a statement from the Department of Education who said, in no circumstances should teachers be subjected to abuse simply for doing their jobs.

We're taking forward ambitious plans to improve behaviour and discipline in schools, including our £10 million behaviour hubs programme designed to model and share exemplary practice, making behaviour management a core part of early teacher training and improving our guidance for schools to ensure it is clear and consistent. What do you think of that? Yeah, that's the message we would expect to hear from the Department for Education. But we still have the position where, for example,

in initial teacher training, teachers that are coming into profession ymddiriedol i'w clywed gan y Gweithlu Llywodraethol ond mae gennym ni hyd yn oed y sefyllfa lle, er enghraifft, yn hyfforddiant myfyrwyr cychwyn cyntaf, mae myfyrwyr sy'n dod i mewn i'r broffesiynu yn peidio â chael y math hwn o hyfforddiant a sut i ddelio â'r math hwn o gyfnodau. Rwy'n hapus, mewn gwirionedd, bod y Gweithlu Llywodraethol ac roeddem yn ymateb i hyn, mae ysgolion nawr yn cael anghenion statudol ar gyfer dysgu cymorth, now have a statutory requirement for the teaching of relationships, health and sex education and relationships and health education in schools. So that is one way in which through the curriculum that young children and young people can be taught about what is expected of them in terms of healthy relationships. Also, the fact that schools are often pitted against each other also means that where there is a label that is attached to a school and for fear of any repercussions from parents or the wider community.

That often means that the competitive nature of schools and education, that this veil of secrecy surrounding sexual harassment is hidden. Yeah. A detriment to particular women for reporting in the schools because they don't, school leaders do not want that label within their school. Jennifer, thank you very much for joining us this morning. If you'd like to get in touch with us about anything you may have experienced, please do so via our website.

Jennifer Moses, thank you. Now, in the 20th century alone, up to 300 million people died from smallpox. It was one of the biggest killers in the history of humanity, and those who survived it were often left with extensive scarring or went blind. It wasn't until 1980, following a global vaccination campaign that it became the first and only human virus to be eradicated. 300 years ago this month Lady Mary Wortley Montague deliberately infected her three-year-old daughter with a dose of smallpox. In other words she inoculated her and was the first to do so in the West. Her role in the race to halt the spread of the virus was largely unacknowledged at the time.

She should be recognised for the pioneer that she was. So says Jo Willett, who's written her biography, The Pioneering Life of Mary Wortley Montague. And Jo joins us now to tell us all about her. So, Jo, what got you interested and how did you come across Mary? Very good morning to you. I was just in Litchfield Cathedral and waiting to buy a new car and it was just being sorted

and in Litchfield Cathedral was a monument to Lady Mary Workley Montague and I'd never heard of her. And then I started reading her letters and got caught up in her life. So let's find out about this fabulous pioneer. So what was her background? Let's find out a little bit pioneer. So what was her background? Let's find out a little bit about her

because she was part of the establishment, wasn't she? Oh, very much so. She's a very colourful figure, but she is very much a woman of our time. She'd love women's art, definitely. She was born an aristocrat and with everything that goes with that. So at that point,

you would normally have an arranged marriage, but she didn't want to marry the person her father wanted her to marry, and so she eloped with Edward Wortley Montague. And eloped with him, and they ended up living, where did they go? How was that taken? What happened? Well, they lived in Yorkshire first of all, then they lived in London, and when she was in London as a young woman in her 20s, she got smallpox herself,

and so she went through that. And then he was made ambassador to Turkey and so they travelled overland to Turkey where she came across inoculation. So she got smallpox herself. Just how prevalent was smallpox in the 18th century? Well, in Europe, the whole of Europe in the 18th century, one in ten people died of smallpox

and over half those were children. So it was very prevalent and it was getting worse. It used to be not so bad when Lady Mary's grandparents were around. It was kind of like having German measles, something like that. But it was getting worse and worse in the West. Whereas when Lady Mary went to Turkey, she discovered that it wasn't so serious. What did she discover? What were they doing in Turkey? That was because they were inoculating. They were using the expression of inoculating,

where basically you make little cuts in someone's wrists and ankles, and you introduce a tiny amount of smallpox pus so that they get a very, very mild form of the disease. And it was along with a surgeon, Dr Maitland, and she discovered that he was doing the inoculating out there, that she became fascinated by it. I mean, it's still a very...

She took him. She took, they took, the family took Maitland with them as their kind of house surgeon. And he already knew, well, in fact, they both had heard about inoculation. She wasn't able to be a member of the Royal Society because she was a woman, but she knew about it. And the doctors, probably the doctors, when she was lying ill with smallpox, discussed it. And so she took Maitland with her. When she came back to England, she'd had her son inoculated in Turkey, but other people had done that. But the real pioneering thing she did,

which actually was exactly 300 years today, was that she decided to inoculate her own daughter and she called Maitland to Twickenham to do that. He was very, very reluctant because he was very worried what would happen to his career, but she bravely thought they should go ahead with it. I think that says so much about her personality and the way she thought and how forward-thinking, I mean, and brave to do something.

Nobody else had done it. So she was the first person to, it was her baby daughter. Yeah, well, she was three. The daughter was three by then, but still it was a pretty mega thing to do. Yes, but she calculated that risk. She knew that it was much safer to be inoculated than to leave her daughter unprotected, uninoculated. And was her husband happy that she'd put her two children at risk? I mean, she had taken a big risk with them both. Very interestingly, both times she did it, her husband wasn't around, which I think says an awful lot. I think she wanted him out of the way.

I mean, I can't prove that, so that she could crack on and get it done. And not only was he against it, but the medical profession in the uk was against it as well very much so yes so she wrote from turkey she wrote a letter to her friend in england sarah chiswell who by the way then died of smallpox um saying that if i'm brave enough if i get back because of course even going to turkey was pretty dangerous normally the wise men bastards didn't go with them if i get back i will war with doctors i'm prepared to take them on and and so she did there's so much to say about her because then she introduced that she got the royals on board didn't she and obviously and this is and this is before jenna because it was in 1796 when jenna developed the first vaccine

using pus from cowpox blister that's right 80, 80 years later. Yeah. If Jenna was, what happened was that Mary started inoculation. She was a great networker. So of course she got Princess Caroline involved. But she knew that really it was a very simple thing. You didn't need to medicalise it, but doctors insisted on medicalising it and bleeding and purging people. And Jenna as a child had that. He was bled and he was

purged. He had a terrible time. And that's why he came up with vaccinations. If it hadn't been for Lady Mary, we wouldn't be having vaccinations today. And what do you think Mary would have made of the parallels today with Covid and the people reluctant to get vaccinated? Oh, she would have been really interested in it, wouldn't she? I'm sure she'd have been a vaccine pilot. She'd have been fighting the fight to get everybody sorted. She'd want to get back to life. She was so lively. She would have hated lockdown. We could talk about her

because she's such a fascinating character. You'll have to come back and tell us about her writings on Turkey and the travels and her friendship with Alexander Pope, Alexander Pope,

all the rest of it. But the autobiography, the biography, I should say, is out now, The Pioneering Life of Mary Wortley Montague. Thank you very much for joining us. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Moseley. And just before you go, I want to tell you about just one thing you can do for your overall health and well-being. I'm on a mission for my new BBC Radio 4 podcast, Just One Thing, to unearth the simple and often surprising things you can do for your brain and body. From how doing press-ups can boost your brain function, to how the power of your breathing can change the way you think and feel. So please subscribe to Just

One Thing on BBC Sounds for the one small thing you can do every episode to improve your health in a number of unexpected ways. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.