Woman's Hour - Dolly Parton, Women In Prison

Episode Date: February 2, 2021

Dolly Parton has sold 100 million albums and published over 3000 songs. There's a new book about her by Sarah Smarsh who says we don't know enough about Dolly's philanthropy. Dolly's given million of books around the world and has donated thousands of dollars to families living in the Smoky Mountains where she's from. Sarah's book is called She Come by It Natural and she's on Woman's Hour to explain how influential and significant Dolly is for generations of women.The Ministry of Justice recently said 500 new prison cells would be built in women's jails. They say it's to improve conditions, and some prisons will now let women have overnight visits with their children. They say they're putting in £2 million of funding, via charities, to help women yet the plans have drawn criticism. Why?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, it's Emma Barnett here. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. On today's programme, is a spot of history potentially about to be made? Are we about to see the first woman manager in English men's football? Chelsea FC women manager Emma Hayes is reported to be on the AFC Wimbledon shortlist and if successful, she'd be the very first. How would men feel about a woman being in charge? The players, the fans, the management?

There was quite a reaction, I'm sure some of you will remember, when a man took over the management of the England women's team. Former manager Phil Neville. A lot of you got in touch with the programme at that time and I'm sure you'll get in touch with us today. What do you make of this? How are you involved? Perhaps you're a fan in football,

perhaps you're involved at a grassroots level. Tell us what you make of this. Is it progress? A lot of you getting in touch already on social media to say, come on, it's a non-story, her gender's not relevant. But we do know it will be a first and we do know that there will be some hurdles. It's already been spoken about by some of the female players.

If she is to move, she will face some sort of barrier. We'll get into all of that a bit later on in the programme. What do you make of this potential first? Are we going to see female managers across the men's game and vice versa? And how do you navigate a male-dominated company or area or arena? Perhaps you're doing it at the moment. It isn't confirmed

but it is something that's been written about today that she's on the shortlist. We want to talk about it with you. We want to hear your views. Text me on 848 44. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. Gary says

if she's the best person for the job, great. Just don't cry sexism when she gets stick or the sack like all other managers. Also today, Dolly Parton and working class feminism. Not her herself, but you'll be hearing her music. There is a new book exploring

what Dolly has given to the world and to women. We'll be getting into that also a bit later on. But first, the Ministry of Justice recently announced plans for up to 500 new prison cells to be built in women's jails. They say these will be created in existing women's prisons to increase the number of single cells available and improve conditions. Some will enable women to have overnight visits in prison with their children to prepare for life at home after release.

The government has also pledged almost £2 million of funding for 38 charities, including women's centres, all of whom support women who are vulnerable. These announcements have drawn criticism from a number of those same organisations. Joining us today, Prisons Minister Lucy Fraser, Kate Paradine from Women in Prison and Joy Dole, who runs ANOWIM, a women's centre in Birmingham. Welcome to all of you. If I could start with you, Lucy Fraser, why the need for 500 new cells? Shouldn't you be focusing on stopping women going to prison in the first place? We are stopping women from going into prison. We've seen the female population go down by 25% over the last 10 years. And that's a trajectory which I welcome. And I do want to see less women going into prison. But the reality is, is that we have committed as a government to put 20,000

more police officers on the streets. And the likelihood is that we have committed as a government to put 20,000 more police officers on the streets. And the likelihood is that that will result in more people going to prison, both women and men. We're building 18,000 prison spaces across the estate to ensure that when people come through our courts, are convicted of crime, there is somewhere safe and decent for them to be held so that we can rehabilitate them when they come back into the community. And so we absolutely need to prepare for that and ensure that there are places for women to go to if we see that increase in the number of people coming into custody as a result of our police officers investigating more on the streets.

Doesn't this fly in the face of the government's female offender strategy launched only in June 2018? Admittedly, there's been a large amount of change of personnel in who is the Justice Secretary and who's running this at the moment. But if you refer back to that and what David Gauke, who was the Secretary of State for Justice, said, is that the new programme of work for female offenders was driven by three priorities. Earlier intervention, an emphasis on community-based solutions,

and an aim to make custody as effective and as decent as possible for those women who do have to be there. How does 500 new cells fit into that? It fits in exactly with what you've just said, because we are also investing in those community orders. So the second point you said was early intervention. So we've also put money into, for example, drug treatments. So two weeks ago, we announced £18 million for drug treatments. That's the largest investment of funds for 15 years. We know about a third of women have drug issues. And so we're going to try and help them turn their lives around. As you mentioned, Emma, the third priority of the female offender strategy was safe, decent places for people to be held in custody. And that's what we're doing. We're making sure.

Safe enough to have your children in jail with you? Well, we already have mother and baby units in prisons because that early period of time is a really, really important time for bonding. And so you can have your child with you. It's something that is very welcomed by the women's sector. We've recently done a report on the mother and baby units, and those units are often praised by the inspectorate. We know that the bond between women and their children is fundamental, which is why we try not to put them in prison, why we try and help them in the community and avoiding them going into prison and having that separation. Let's bring into this Kate Paradine from Women in Prison. Do you welcome the additional cells,

the number of cells, as Lucy puts it, need to make sure that when women are in prison. Do you welcome the additional cells, the number of cells, as Lucy puts it, need to make sure that when women are in prison, they're in fit conditions? We absolutely condemn these plans to build new prison cells. There is no way there is any need for more prison cells for women. The government has a strategy that's been working. It's based on overwhelming evidence that community solutions are the way forward and that the vast majority of women in prison don't need to be there and can safely serve their sentences in the community. That strategy has been working since 2018 and gradually those numbers have been going down. The first we believe the government was behind a strategy to reduce prison numbers not to increase them these cells won't improve conditions

they will just increase the number of women in prison and as to the funding there is a cliff edge of funding faced at the end of next month for all those services which the minister's strategy supports and that's something that we're facing at the moment. Let's come back to the funding in just a moment but can I put those points to the minister? Lucy Fraser. Of course so we have been talking for almost a year about the fact that we're increasing prison places. We announced around a year ago that we'd be building 18,000 additional prison places with a pot of a number of billions of pounds. And of course, we need to ensure that we have places for women if those orders are made. If we don't see an increase in the population, what we will have done is build safer, better places, and we can close those more cramped,

unsuitable conditions for women. Just in relation to the funding, because it's a really important point. Yes, we are spending money on places for women in prison, but that's not to the exclusion of funding in the communities. I mentioned the £80 million on drugs. On Friday, I announced £70 million to help people coming out of prison into accommodation so they can turn their lives around. We have a £100 million fund for probation to help people who are serving as community orders. And organisations like Kate's and Joy's help those people in the community. And the women's service is a key part of that. Yes. Well, again, I will come back in more detail to the funding,

but that point made, and I will give Kate and Joy time to come back on that. How much will it cost to build 500 new prison cells? It will cost £150 million. £150 million? Yes. And you see that as the best use of funds? What we need to do, I mean, the public are not going to thank us if women go to prison and there's nowhere for them to stay, nor will they

thank us if they... Surely there is capacity for those women at the moment. You've told me already and you've told our listeners that the capacity, the number of people going to jail, number of female offenders is going down. So why do you need more? We need more because we are recruiting 20,000 police officers on the streets. And if they detect further crimes, we need to ensure the government would be wholly irresponsible if he didn't have spaces to put people in prison if judges made those orders. So you've calculated you're going to need 500 based on having 20,000 more police officers. Could you just explain why you've come up with 500? There are very, very complicated analysis that are going on. We have a rolling data looking at what the impact is. It's something that we look at regularly with the MAJ analytical team.

And that's the calculation that we are working to at the moment. Of course, that may change. But you're saying... And we will be analysing it as it does. And as I said, it is in everyone's interest that we have decent, safe, secure places for people to live. But I do want to emphasise... Sorry, you're saying there that you're expecting the number of female offenders to go up we are preparing for the number of female based on what based on the fact that we have 20 000 no i know that but but what modeling sorry what what modeling have you got which shows genuine genuine confusion here what modeling have you got which shows 20 000 more police officers will have you got which shows 20,000 more police officers

will mean you need 500 more prison cells for women? We have extremely detailed modelling, which has looked not just at the female population, but also the adult male estate. Can you share it with us? Well, it's very, very detailed modelling. I'm sure we will be. I'm sure we could follow it.

Well, we actually have disclosed the fact that what our numbers project. We disclosed that a number of months ago, which resulted in the 18,000 announcement that we made a number of months ago. We're extremely transparent in relation to our statistics. So you think the female prison population, just to be clear, Lucy, we're grateful for your time today on Woman's Hour. It's going to go from what to what? At the moment, it's around 3,000. It has dropped, as I said, by 25%. And you think it's going to go to 3,500 with 20,000 more police officers? We are preparing because it would be wholly irresponsible not to, to ensure that we have sufficient places.

Okay, let's put that back to Kate before I bring Joy in. Kate, it would be irresponsible if there were more females going, more women going to prison, if the government didn't provide cells for them. What do you make of that argument? I think it's wholly irresponsible not to follow the evidence and the advice of all the professional groups, including police officers, who are investing in diversion schemes and reducing the number of

women being caught in the criminal justice system it's this that the government should be investing its 150 million pounds in support services and diverting and reducing the prison population which as i said the minister has already overseen a successful start to this implementation. Can't you do both? Can't you do both, as Lucy just said? Well, building prison places means that they'll be filled. So it actually undermines the aims of reducing the prison population. I mean, you could argue not necessarily. But I take your point there. Let me do bring in Joy at this point point because i'm sorry to have kept you and not brought you in yet who runs anna women's center in birmingham joy where do you come in on this because you provide support for vulnerable women well we just find it

really hard because um women's centers offer a complete and effective way out for women we work with the issues that the woman presents with holistically, her trauma, her adverse childhood experiences, domestic abuse and prison doesn't. Prison does very little to address her issues while at the same time she loses her housing, her children go into care very often, she loses any employment if she has any and it takes her on average 60 miles away from her family and her support structures whereas women's centres keep that woman in the community where she belongs and where she can get support. Do you ever support in your position and this might be a slightly counterintuitive

question with the work that you do but do you ever support the idea of a woman going to prison because there will be crimes for which they should be incarcerated, just as there are for men. Obviously, yes. I mean, if the woman is a threat to the public, then yes, the public needs to be protected. But that is very rare. It's a very small number of women who actually pose a threat to the public. Most of the women are in there for fairly minor crimes. And, you know, it's disproportionate, the effect that it has on her and her family. It's very different to work male offending.

Do you support what Lucy was talking about there, moving beyond the mother and baby units? Do you support the potential for these new cells to allow children to sleep overnight in prisons? I don't. I just don't think it's practical. In all the years that I've worked in this sector, I've never seen a social worker drive a child all the way, probably 60 miles, to a prison to even visit their mother. It's just not practical. I can't see it working. And why would you take a child out of school and out of their home environment to go into a prison environment, which isn't the nicest of places? It would be very unsettling for a child.

Lucy Fraser, as prisons minister, we've had a few messages about that. What do you say away from the mother and baby stage, which you explained very clearly to people, what would you say about this idea not reaching favour with people because of the reasons Joy just outlined? Well, of course, you have to consider this very carefully. What the prisons will also allow you to do is to have more open prison spaces so a mother can visit her child in the community. And something that we're working very closely with Joy and Kate on is residential women's centres so in addition to the prison places in addition to all the funding that we're putting on for community places we have announced our first residential women's centre and that's the centre where the judge wants to or thinks he's got no alternative other than to order custody it's a

threshold case someone can go to a residential centre which isn't custody but it will be giving women in a residential space all the support that they need and we will be allowing as some of the women's centres do children to join women there and so we are looking at this from every single angle because we want to ensure that women who are often victims have their lives turned around and don't repeat offend. Do you think £150 million could be useful towards those residential centres instead of 500 new prison cells? Well, it's not an either or. So we're spending, we announced £800 million for the, sorry, £800,000 for the residential women's centre is the first stage of that.

And as I mentioned, we... That's pretty small compared to £100,000. When you said £800 million there, I thought that's maybe comparable, but £800,000 is quite different to £150 million, isn't it? We announced almost £150 million in the last two weeks for other services. That's the 80 million pounds. Well, let's get Kate in on that. If I may, Lucy, let's get Kate in on that because she's obviously on the front line of this. Kate, what do you make of the 150 million on the cells versus perhaps some of the services you're looking at? We don't know how the money that has been announced in the last week impacts women's services because it's focused on men and then leaving in their droves homeless from prison. At the moment there is a cliff edge

of funding facing the services like Anna Wimrun and ourselves on the end of next month when the money that has been allocated runs out. So there is no funding settlement for the services that will keep women out of prison. There is none at the moment. We are still waiting for that. Lucy, a very quick word on that. I must give you a right to reply. So the £70 million will be covering five probation areas and will cover men and women, whoever comes out of prison. It will be helping those people in those areas. We've spent £7.5 million over the last few years on the Women's Centre. Most recently, as Kate identified, we announced £2 million additional funding for the Women's Centres and Joy and Kate's organisations got around £200,000 of that for this year, which

I'm absolutely delighted by because they do such important work. And we're looking at the moment for next year in our internal allocations as to how we will be able to provide further support for women's centres because they do do incredible work. We've not denied them all. We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much for your time. The Prisons Minister there, Lucy Fraser, Kate Paradine from Women in Prison and Joy Dole, who runs ANOWIM, a women's centre in Birmingham. Many messages coming in on this.

Another politician talking about providing prison places reads Eve's message. For when judges impose custodial sentences as if sentencing guidelines are nothing to do with politicians. We should not be locking up more women, reads this says with the hashtag Women's Hour. This is outrageous regarding the women's prison issue

reads this message. What about the gaping hole in the courts and the CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service? And that's saying £150 million and 500 more cells based on the recruitment of 20,000 new police officers. I'm finding this totally bonkers. Keep your messages coming in on 84844 if you want to text or get in touch with us on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Now, Dolly Parton is one of the most iconic and prolific country singer-songwriters. She's sold 100 million albums, published over 3,000 songs since 1964. But as a new book by Sarah Smarsh argues,

there's a less well-known philanthropic side to her too. Not only has she gifted over 133 million books around the world with her imagination library, which encourages children to read, she's also donated thousands of dollars to families of the Smoky Mountains where she comes from, whose homes were destroyed by wildfires. Smarsh's book is called She'll Come By It Natural, and in it she explains the deep significance Dolly has had for generations of working class American women. I began my conversation with Sarah Smarsh about arguably Dolly's most significant recent contribution to date,

her funding of the Moderna COVID vaccine. At the outset of the pandemic in early 2020, she swiftly donated a million dollars to Vanderbilt University. That's a research institution in Nashville where she lives. And as you note, that resulted in life-saving results. So Dolly Parton is something of a fairy godmother to us beyond just being a cultural icon, I think. What is your connection to her? Why have you written this book? Well, I grew up in rural Kansas and I couldn't have articulated this at the time, but she was the rare pop culture icon acknowledging and telling the stories of your experience in media, books, movies, film, and so on, it can feel quite discouraging. And voices like Dolly Parton's were,

by contrast, quite validating. Baby girl, I'll never get to see the child I've brought into this world. You argue that country music is a language among women. That was true in my family. And I suspect it is because women needed a language to communicate in a patriarchal society. It was a somewhat emotionally repressed place where I grew up. German Catholic wheat farmers in the Midwestern United States. But we had country music sung by women telling stories that were familiar to us. And what my mother would do to convey wisdom to me is she would play a song that perhaps was by Dolly Parton. It was always by a woman.

And she'd say, listen to the words. But I guess he must have changed his mind. Cause he left town one day. When he found out about you. He just stopped and ran away and it was kind of a code and a special way of connecting with each other beyond the men and males that we very much loved in our lives but who didn't face or understand the same challenges what's so interesting is that we often try to superimpose feminism onto her we say things about her as this trailblazer.

We talk about her in these tones. And yet Dolly's never called herself a feminist. Yeah, you are right that she is averse to that term. The reason that I hope I might be forgiven for any imposition is that is actually the crux of the book, is examining the ways in which she is averse to it and why she has every right and how the ways in which we discuss feminism often hover too much around terminology, labels, academic discourse, and too rarely examine the on the ground work of embodying feminism, which I do think that Dolly Parton

does exquisitely. She says she wants everyone to be treated equally when asked around that word. You talk about those hidden messages. Daddy, come get me, about women sent to mental institutions by their husbands, or I'm doing this for your sake, a woman telling her baby she has to give her up for adoption as the father has run off? Yes, when she was writing her early music in the 60s and 70s, it is just a litany of, you know, bold statements, articulating or sometimes rejecting gender norms of the time. Dolly is usually writing about women who are in a remote place and removed from resources, forgotten, unseen. One of her more controversial that actually wouldn't even be played by radio stations at the time is called Down from Dover.

I know this dress I'm wearing doesn't hide the secret I have tried concealing. When he left, he promised me that he'd be back by the time it was revealing. The man with whom she became pregnant out of wedlock has deserted her, and she has no economic recourse, let alone cultural. At that time, it would have been incredibly shameful. And by the way, Dolly Parton was raised in the Pentecostal church. It's a very rigid religion in the American South. Her grandfather was a pastor. And so these declarations about women's rights and the ways in which they suffered at the hands of men and patriarchal laws was, I think, all the more radical for where she comes from. My folks weren't understanding when they found out they sent me from the home place.

My daddy said if folks found out he'd be ashamed to ever show his face. Dolly was born to a poor farm in East Tennessee. They would call it a holler in the beautiful Smoky Mountains. And she had over 10 siblings. One of them died as a baby, possibly for malnutrition. This was a place of deep struggle. She will be the first to tell you that there was a lot of love and they weren't all just walking around mired in misery. There was plenty of laughter and delight, but it was a severe situation in that rote survival was in question for lack of food, lack of money. And they certainly went without. Her father, I believe, also worked as a carpenter and her mother had a full-time job taking care of 10 or 12 kids. So that was the environment in which Dolly formed

her worldview. And I think you can see it now in her inclusive and loving approach to people, a sort of humility that sometimes comes by way of suffering and struggle. You ought to go north, somebody told us. Cause the air is filled with gold dust. And fortune falls like snowflakes in your hands. She left East Tennessee. She got on a Greyhound bus right after she finished high school. She was the first person from her family to do so at age 18 and headed to Nashville to try to become a star, leaving her home farm with two paper sacks that held everything that she owned. Just poor smoky mountain farm folk with nothing more than high hopes.

So we hitched our station wagon to a star. And Nashville wasn't a walk in the park to try and make it big. You know, walking along hotel corridors, trying to scavenge food from trays. Yes, and indeed she went hungry. And this would have been the 1960s in Nashville, Tennessee. I mean, one can only imagine the levels of harassment and discrimination that she faced. But she kept knocking on doors until she got attention for her undeniable talent. And ultimately, that talent ended up usurping even the host of the show that had her on so

she was one of those people that's bound to be a superstar. You're talking about a man called Porter Wagner who presented that number one tv show Country Music Hour and she did work with him for some time but he sued her didn't he when she wanted to go it alone? He did they had originally signed a contract for a duration of five years during which he would be his pretty girl singer as they would have thought of it at the time. And I think that it's quite palpable that Porter resented her power as a woman

and she was coming into it fully. He resisted her move even though she had every legal right to leave. And I guess guilt tripped her in a way that I bet that business shark Dolly Parton wouldn't be vulnerable to now. But she was then, as the young woman who was learning a business that no doubt was quite hostile to her. Every one of her bosses was male. And so she ended up staying on two more years. And then when she finally did leave, as you say, he sued her, I believe it was for a million dollars,

which must have just been some sort of symbolic number suggesting that every dollar that she would make for the rest of her life, something was due to him. But it was a shrewd move, wasn't it, from her to Split? Because after that, she wrote I Will Always Love You, which became one of her most lucrative and best-loved songs. She even turned down Elvis. Yes, I Will Always Love You. She penned as a sort of goodbye to Porter. And not too long after that, Elvis Presley wanted to cover it.

She was thrilled. It was a kind of career-making moment. She was still a rising star. And then at the last minute, heading to the studio, Elvis's management mentioned, by the way, we will need to take half of the royalties essentially for this song. Because she thinks of herself as a writer first, she had made a promise to herself that all the songs she wrote, which today number something like 3,000, she would own the entirety. And just

for standing by that principle, she didn't make an exception for Elvis Presley. And the beautiful part of this story is that a couple of decades later, a singer named Whitney Houston would cover it under Dolly Parton's terms. And Dolly Parton has since said about that kind of long game, Whitney's cover of the song made me so much money that if I wanted to, I could buy Graceland. The Dolly Parton that we know today was formed by these very brave departures where she was saying, you know, this is what I'm being offered, but I demand even more for myself and

therefore I walk on at great risk. She's got Dollywood, let's not forget that. Yes. You know, business-wise attracts millions of people every year, doesn't it? It does, but it was a generous and well-intentioned act to situate that in the Smoky Mountains, right where she grew up, that needed economic revitalization. And that enterprise brings $1.5 billion into the Tennessee economy every year. So everyone wins.

In terms of her look, that was inspired by someone in her town. Her term for this woman would be the town trollop who her mother told her was trash. And Dolly felt an admiration for the boldness with which this woman wore a low-cut shirt, very high heels and a skirt that was too short and hair that was too big and makeup that was too bright. There was something about that that spoke to her. The boldness, yes, but also just reveling in one's own power and in this case, a sexual power. That's something Dolly Parton has never shied away from and in fact turned it into what I have described as the greatest gender performance of all time.

Just because I'm blonde, don't think I'm dumb because this dumb blonde ain't no nobody's fool. Sarah Smarsh then on Dolly Parton. Now, some history in the making, potentially. Are we about to see the first woman manager in English men's football? Chelsea FC women manager Emma Hayes is reported to be on the AFC Wimbledon shortlist. And if successful, she would be the very first. How would men feel about a woman being in charge?

The players, the managers, the management of the club, the fans. There was quite the reaction when a man took over the management of the England women's team, the former manager Phil Neville. AFC Wimbledon are a club in the third division of English men's football. We've had a string of poor results, landing them in the relegation zone. Manager Glyn Hodges was sacked by mutual consent on Saturday and they're now searching for replacements. Kelly Cates joins us now, football presenter on Sky Sports

and Radio 5 Live. Good morning, Kelly. Morning. And also Pat Nevin, ex-Scottish footballer, wonderful commentator as well as Kelly, of course, also on the line. Hello, Pat. Good morning, Emma.

Thanks to you both for joining us. Kelly, what do you make of this? Because it is and would be, if it does happen, history. What I find most interesting about the reaction to this is that much of it hasn't come from men within the game. It's either been neutral or positive towards Emma Hayes because she is a hugely respected coach in men's and women's football. But it's women's football that's had the stronger reaction, it seems, so far, because there are a couple of questions that they're raising. One is on Emma Hayes' record, which is phenomenal.

Seven major trophies in her time at Chelsea. They're top of the league at the moment with a game in hand. They're looking to retain their title. They're in the last 16 of the Champions League, and she's hoping that she can win the Champions League with Chelsea because she's got to the semifinals a couple of times. And she's created this kind of culture of winning at Chelsea. So the argument is, would going to a third tier men's team who are in a relegation battle necessarily be a step up for Emma Hayes? And the second one is, the second question that is raised by people from within the women's game is whether the men's game is or should be a step up for someone working in

the women's game, that if you take that step, is it necessarily a step forward? But I think in terms of that question, I think we have to, we have to kind of be where we are, you know, that it may well be that the ideal scenario is that your gender and your your whether you worked in men's football or women's football doesn't come into it but it does and because she is going to be potentially the first woman to manage in senior men's football in this country it's happened elsewhere and it's happened at at lower levels but because that that's potentially going to happen then maybe you do need to take a step backwards in order to to open those doors and allow more women to take those those steps forward

but it but it's a very interesting discussion and I I'm very much enjoying the fact that women's football is in a place where it feels so confident that it said why why would one of our former well our foremost coach why would she go and take a job at this struggling league one side? Yes, well, that's exactly the tune of this message that came in earlier. You know, while it would be great to have a female manager in the men's pro game, I can't see her taking the job, not due to sexism, but because, you know, exactly what you were just saying, going down in the league and going from where she is. Just to summarise that particular message which came in from RH. Pat, how do you think men will react, would react to having a female manager? Honestly, do you think all of the players would be all right with it?

I don't think all of the players would be all right of it because that's the way some men are. Let's not pretend it's otherwise. However, would most of the players put up with it and accept it? And in actual fact, love the fact that she was there if she was successful? Yes, they would, actually. Because if you look at other areas of the game, although there are far too few women involved

in the men's professional game as it is, but the ones that are there, you look even just at Chelsea. I mean, Chelsea have got Marina Granitskaya, who basically runs the club. And I don't see the players kind of turning around and disrespecting her in any way. And it's okay, maybe slightly different, quite a bit different in the dressing room.

I've spent enough time with Emma Hayes. She would have no problem whatsoever. I've got to look at the person as well. I was going to say, tell us about Emma Hayes. Well, I mean, incredibly strong character, apart from anything else. I mean, she can talk football with absolute, she can do low blocks for the best of them.

Don't worry. She knows the jargon better than most. And you don't need to know just the jargon. You need to know the actual game and just look at what she's done for Chelsea in the women's game. It's been incredible. Now, this may well sound as if I'm just jumping

on a slight bandwagon here. When Antonio Conte was sacked three years ago, my suggestion was Emma should get the Chelsea job, not Wimbledon job, Chelsea job, one of the top jobs in British football and I didn't think it was any way a silly thing to say. What surprised

me at the time was I didn't get any stick for it. Lots of people thought yeah, actually, now that you say it because we all know her capabilities and what she's done, give her a good team in the men's game.

And there's absolutely no reason why she wouldn't do well. Maybe she should turn this down and wait for something better, as you would put it in that respect.

Kelly, you know Emma as well. I do. And I just think she's got that, as Pat said, she is somebody who commands respect, whether she's talking to men in the game or whether she's talking to women in the game. But she's also not a woman who apologises for being a woman or makes any concessions towards being a woman. I've worked on programmes with her before when she was heavily pregnant. And she's in a you know a room of

men and and women and she's sort of sitting on these god-awful stools that we had to sit on she's like oh my god my back's not gonna set my back's not gonna hold out with this isn't I need to I need to get up and walk around and so she's not she's not someone who's going to ignore the fact that she's a woman but equally she's she's more than comfortable mixing in the men's game, talking about the men's game and adding value to the men's game. Pat, do you see a difference in the way men and women coach and manage? Actually, no, not massively. You know, there are good coaches and bad coaches

and mediocre coaches with both men and women. It may well be that I've not worked with enough female coaches to find out what specific strengths there may well be there, and there may well be some. But watching Emma, honestly, I hope that she is first.

I desperately hope that she is first, because the first woman has to be or doesn't have to be, but would be great if the first woman coach at the top level doesn't have to be, but it would be great if the first woman coached at the top level in men's football was successful. Because that would hopefully open the floodgates. You know, if the first one had a difficult time because of a difficult personality and was pushed down

because of, you know, being seen negatively for unfair reasons, then that would be a real stymie to the possibility of women going forward. However, Emma's not that type. She would be on a level playing field with just about any manager I could think of, hence the reason why I originally said that Chelsea coach, you must be considered. By the way, I'm still not... We hope to get Emma on at some point,

and we're certainly going to look forward to that and hear from her in her own words. Kelly, do you think there are any differences that women bring anything else or anything new to a game? I'm not sure about that, but I do think, I mean, Pat was talking about the fact that, you know, that it would be great if you bring someone in who's respected and will be successful. The one thing I would say, if it's at AFC Wimbledon, and there are lots of other people on the shortlist, that would be their third manager within 18 months. And managers don't last long in English football.

There is a high turnover, and they don't leave because everything's going swimmingly. They leave because there are issues, because results aren't going their way, whatever may be happening. So at some stage, if it were Emma Hayes who took over at AFC Wimbledon, or if she were to get a job elsewhere, it will go wrong. And my concern is that that's the point at which

her gender may become an issue, because I don't think in terms of the appointment, when everything's all positive, that it's necessarily going to be an issue. It's whether or not she then becomes a sort of symbol of everything that's wrong with women being involved in football which I think she will be for certain of those kind of you know men who huff and puff against any kind of equality but I think you know she will stand and fall on on her performances and on her own results. Pat what would you say to any male footballers or fans who don't like this idea? Get used to it because it's going to happen. There have been a lot of different things that have happened over the years in football.

In some areas, football has been slow to move. But in other areas, it's been quicker than people give it credit for. And if you look at the effect that black players have had in the game and how hard football has worked over the years, never fixing what is obviously a societal problem. You know, football has, I would argue, been in the vanguard in a positive way. It took a while to get going, you know, but eventually it is in the vanguard. And if you look at what's happening now, it is in the vanguard.

So any group that's kind of underrepresented or basically biased and picked on against, eventually it will be brought into heel. underrepresented or basically biased and picked on against eventually it will be brought into heel and the one thing I would say about football and I promise you this in the long term

do you know if you're successful they will crawl to get you to go up for them because that's it I have to go now and crawl to our drama

but thank you very much for talking to us Kelly Cates lovely to have you on as well thank you very much for those insights that's all for today's Woman's Hour thank you so much for talking to us. Kelly, Kate, lovely to have you on as well. Thank you very much for those insights. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Zand van Tulleken. And I'm Kimberley Wilson. And just before you go, we wanted to quickly tell you about our podcast made of stronger stuff from BBC Radio 4. I'm a psychologist and Zand is a medical doctor and we're bringing

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