Woman's Hour - Domestic abuse survivor Lucy Godley and mum Sharon, Baroness Casey on social care

Episode Date: September 21, 2026

For months Lucy Godley documented the abuse she suffered at the hands of her former partner. Secretly, she photographed injuries, gathered evidence and sent it to the one person she trusted to keep it safe: her mum, Sharon. The evidence would ultimately help secure his conviction and a 23-year prison sentence. For the first time, Lucy Godley and her mother Sharon join Nuala McGovern to tell their story together. The Prime Minister Andy Burnham is facing calls to set a national waiting-time target for dementia care in England. A proposal for an 18‑week referral‑to‑treatment target has been backed by Baroness Louise Casey, who's leading a major review of adult social care. Women account for roughly two thirds of dementia cases. Baroness Casey joins Nuala to talk about what needs to change. The play Tits Up! follows four very different women who bond while being treated for breast cancer. Set in an oncology waiting room, the play begins a 23 day UK tour in October. One of the writers, Leah Bell who also stars with actor and comedian Crissy Rock join Nuala to discuss the play, friendships and using humour as a way to get through difficult times.Specialist courts to handle cases of rape and other sexual offences will be introduced across England and Wales over the next two years. Each crown court will have at least one courtroom set up to hear such cases, while alleged victims will be able to view proceedings remotely and give evidence from a separate room via video link. Nuala gets reaction from Chief Executive of Rape Crisis England & Wales, Ciara Bergman. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. With a subscription to the BBC website and app, you can now get early access to your favorite BBC podcasts. Listen to shows like, You're Dead to Me, In Our Time, good bad billionaire, and more. Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription, from live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features.

Visit BBC.com forward slash subscription. to find out more. Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. This morning, we'll have a reaction to that announcement that specialist courts for rape cases will be rolled out across England and Wales.

There are also reports that the government is preparing to open specialist domestic abuse courts to fast-track cases and clear a backlog. And there is another story in the news today, and that is that thousands of pregnant women in England are reporting domestic abuse and midwives are struggling to cope. Those stories will resonate with my guest Lucy Godley. You'll hear an interview with Lucy and her mother Sharon in just a moment.

Lucy was subjected to horrific abuse by her partner, which began when she was five months pregnant. Lucy took a dangerous decision to secretly gather evidence of her abuse working in tandem with her mother and it did eventually lead to a conviction. Lucy and Sharon's story is compelling, shocking and at times graphic, but it provides an extraordinary insight into why women stay in such situations and how they might leave.

Also today, Baroness Louise Casey is asking a question as chair of the Independent Commission on Adult Social Care, and it is, when we are old or disabled or have a serious illness, who should support us and how? Well, we know many women take on the responsibilities of caring, What changes would make it better for you? And also this hour, we'll hear about tits up. It's a play that explores the challenges of navigating life after a breast cancer diagnosis, and it does it with honesty and with humour.

If you'd like to get in touch with the programme, you can text us 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number is 0-3-700-100-444, or indeed, on most smart speakers, you can say, Alexa, ask BBC Sounds to send a comment. But let me turn to that distressing and important story concerning domestic abuse. Lucy Godley was violently abused by her partner for more than two years. Until finally, she was able to gather enough evidence that he was jailed for 23 years.

She was helped by her mum, Sharon, who secretly stored photos and messages over many months to help build a case against Lucy's abuser. Figures from the charity refuge show that one in four women will experience abuse in their lifetime and one woman is killed by an abusive partner every five days in England and Wales. We do hear about some of those awful stories of abuse on this programme. One question that is sometimes asked is, why do women stay? Well, Lucy's account, which you're about to hear, go some way towards answering that. This is the first time that Lucy and her mum have been interviewed together to tell their story

off the horror and how together they managed to end that abuse. They joined me in the studio for a very emotional, quite graphic interview, which is upsetting in parts. I began by asking Lucy what her partner seemed like when they first met. First impressions, he was just very charming. There was no pressure. He knew I'd just not long come out of a long-term relationship with my son's dad. I explained to him my son was always my priority.

I didn't want to rush into things because I'd just come out of a long-term relationship I didn't think would end so I didn't want the next one to end he told me if I wanted him to meet my son there'd be no pressure, it'd be my choice and it was all what you'd want to hear When did the physical abuse start?

I would say upon reflection there were some controlling behaviours I'd say pink flags upon reflection they probably were red he'd want to know where I was going and things but the physical violence was when I fell pregnant. When I first found out, I was unsure, you know, exploring all options. He was very happy.

He was delighted. He said, I'll support you no matter what. We'd only been together three months, so I was concerned, you know, what would be the best thing. Anyway, we were very happy. We were having a baby together. And then it wasn't until we had our first scan that he accused me of, cheating and the baby not being his. The first physical incident was because I was so far into the pregnancy where the only option was to have the baby.

I think once I'd gotten past that point, that's when everything escalated because he knew I was having this baby no matter what. I was about five months pregnant. He accused me of cheating. I was set on the sofa and he dragged me off the sofa onto the floor. He had a still toe cap work boots on. and he repeatedly just stomped on me on the floor while pregnant. I was screaming and shouting, ran upstairs. I had a big full-length gold mirror, and he smashed it, strangled me.

He got both my wrists and repeatedly smacked them against the walls as hard as he could up behind me. I didn't know till later on, an unrelated incident when I left him, I had x-rays. I'd fallen down the stairs, and they did an x-ray on my wrist, and I had two old fractures. which I'm certain was from that incident. From that time.

But you were staying at your mum's house at that stage? I lived at my mum's at this point. I mean, to bring you in here, Sharon, did you have concerns? Not in the beginning, no. He came across as being very, very charming. And I just remember saying to him in the beginning, just... Yeah, I know, Sharon.

I'm sure it's very difficult to hear these details again. Very difficult. Well, don't you go right me going. It's not something I'll talk about. I just remember. saying him just make sure you love my daughter look after my daughter in the early days did you tell your mum anything at that point is he

no so I didn't tell anyone I loved him I was scared pregnant with a baby you know again I'm very aware you have a child with someone they're in your life forever but it was a couple of weeks later I think I was at mum's yeah I was in my dressing gown on the sofa and I'd and asleep and I woke up to my mum shaking me awake, hysterical,

when my dressing gown had slipped and she saw the bruising. And it was really significant bruising on my legs. And she stood me up. What happened? What happened? I didn't want to tell her. And she took my dressing gown off to sort of look at my whole body. We were kind of screaming at each other at that point, right?

Because you were always kind of fighting because you didn't want to show me in the moment. I was in denial, I think. And I wanted to protect my mum. I knew I was mum myself of my son and being pregnant with a daughter I just, I don't know the thought of other people being hurt by it is what got me.

Of course you don't want to distress your mother but of course it must have been horrendous for you. It was, it was. I totally freaked out in that moment and just demanded that you know she showed me and wanted an explanation as to what had happened I felt she wasn't opening up to mum fully.

I knew she wasn't, I know she was holding back, but within kind of 30 minutes, you know, as the conversation got going and she become a lot more open. Yeah. I remember telling my mum first I fell down the stairs. Yes. But even then it's spare of the moment things, even as soon as those words left my mouth, I thought, you idiot.

So obvious I've not fallen down the stairs. I knew because I had some concerns beforehand. But you did go on to give birth. I understand you were bruised even at that point. Did nurses or was there anybody kind of aware or thinking about what situation you might be in? People definitely had raised concerns to me but I was very good at coming up with a scenario

and I was very good at staying calm. I also had the fact I had seizures. I always used that as an excuse. Oh, I had a seizure and I bumped myself that happens. Did you always have seizures? No, I had my first one February, 2021, and we started in the January. I think I've had one in the last 18 months. I did have a few, they were more frequent, but the ones on my hospital records, most of them are fake,

because when I'd go to hospital for an injury he caused, I would lie and say it was a seizure. I found when I was looking into your history, Lucy, well, horrific, I think is the word, that comes to mind that he was also abusing you while you were in hospital while midwives were gone or nursing medical staff were away? Yeah. So he always said the baby wasn't his, he kept changed his mind. I had to pay for DNA testing while I was pregnant twice. It cost me £3,000 pounds to show him proof and the abuse carried on. I used to try and excuse it because I used to think, oh, he thinks the baby's not his. That's why. But in the hospital room, as soon as the midwives left, he strangled me, he kicked me.

I'd had an epidural after giving birth, and I'd sat up in the bed. And he was repeatedly kicking my legs as I'd first found the strength to sit up. And our daughter was just at the bottom of the bed in the bassinet, I remember. Sorry. I'm so sorry. It's so difficult, I'm sure, to think about those times have been so vulnerable. But you did, do you want to take a minute? That's all right.

I'm just going to get some tissues. Oh, bless you. Thank you. Sorry. The reason I get so upset talking about having my daughter is because I'd held out for so long because I thought maybe he only knew my son who was mine. I thought having his own child physically seeing her in the hospital, I don't know.

I thought some sort of miracle would happen maybe. And I think the assault in the hospital just was terrifying because I thought, oh my God, what have I done? You know, if he can't change for this beautiful, innocent baby, is his, he's not going to change. You made a decision to collate a file of evidence on your partner so that you could get him convicted. Where did that come from? Tell me a little bit about your thought process. So when I first started doing this, it wasn't with the intention to send him to prison. It was for my sanity, gathering this evidence. If he'd punch me and I'd have a black eye or he'd

split my lip, I would scream and shout and say, look, what you've done? And he'd say, what do you mean? You did that to yourself. And although I know I didn't do it to myself, the way they get in your brain and the way you question your own sanity, it really, really got to me. He'd say I had mental health issues. I need help. And I would sit and actually think, oh God, did it happen like that? Was it my fault. So I'd document it so that I could reflect. And that helped me a lot because then the next assault, I'd look back

and think, he did do this. So when did you decide to get your mum involved? It was the end of 2022, I'd say. So before this, I'd gathered about six months' worth of evidence on my phone. And I had a hidden

folder on my phone, but he was very good. I mean, he had my location I never knew about. And he'd come across six months' worth of evidence, and he deleted them all. And then after that, I really was on lockdown. I could barely leave the house. I wouldn't even take the children to the park down the road. So I got my mum involved because I thought, I can't do it on my own. And I put a lot of trust and put my mum in a really awful position, because I knew if I went to friends or other people, they would instantly call the police. And I knew what he was like. But why did you not want

the police involved at this point? Because in my experience with him, unrelated crimes he'd committed, he would get suspended sentences or not guilty. So I knew he was very good at getting away with him. I knew I had to be really strategic. And I said to my mum, I need your help and just keep it to yourself until I tell you. Because I was also still not sure I wanted to go to the police.

I never wanted him to go to prison. I know now he is where he should be. I know that for certain. It's only up until the last year I was very hopeful that he would come out a changed man but he just didn't stop he did not stop and a prime example of

why don't women leave is when I did go to the police he would be arrested for an assault that day or the day before and within 24 hours he'd be released they've let him out so why would I then go back to the police again when I have and they've let him out and this happened four times

and it wasn't until the October on the fifth arrest that he was remanded to prison and it just really upsets me when people say why didn't you just leave because it's just, it's not as easy as that. It's not as simple as that. So with the idea you started sending information, photographs, videos to your mother,

you would delete them on your own phone. Sharon, what was it like, I don't know, receiving that information and I suppose having to sit on it really? You know, you've been instructed, not to call the police, not to let authorities know. Frightening. Really, really frightening.

As much as I wanted to call the police with every photo that came through, I had my daughter whenever she had the chance to say, Mum, please, I need you, I need you, don't do anything with this. Don't respond to this. Don't text me. Please don't call me. I'm okay. as hard as that was

and I'd just be staring at these pictures and do nothing. I know. So hard. Sorry. No, and as Lucy is reaching out to you there across the table but of course you feared for her life, I'm sure. I did. Every night I went to bed all sorts of hours.

Couldn't sleep. Fear to knock at the door. Just waiting to see the outline of officers stood at the door to say that she'd gone. That was my biggest fit. And did you understand her reasoning on not going to the police? Yes and no.

Yeah. As a mum, I just wanted to step in sooner. And that's something again now that I live with every day. And I'm questioned, could I have done more for her sooner? Yeah, it's difficult. Very difficult. What was the point then, Lucy, that you thought, okay, I have enough evidence. How did that transpire?

It was the very last assault. And although there were times where I thought he could possibly kill me. This is what I also was thinking about, you know. It's a huge risk to take. It is. But I also was terrified because he told me if ever I left him or he went to prison, He always told me he'd come out of prison and he'd kill me. So the last assault was...

My daughter was there. It was in front of my daughter. I used to hide it from my children. I posted online. I'd often put them to bed with their headphones on so they wouldn't hear anything. And at the time, I thought I'd fully protected them from it all. But it's only as they're getting older

that I sort of realised they knew. Although they didn't really see anything, they knew. And my daughter was there, and I'd never forget. He punched me and I fell off the sofa And I couldn't hear and I couldn't see I think I was sort of trying to fight consciousness And when my hearing come back

I could just hear a child scream I've never heard a child scream like that before And I looked and it was my daughter and she'd wet herself She was absolutely trembling and petrified And I thought this cannot go on With that he put her away And that's when he sexually assaulted me in the kitchen and on this occasion he had a knife to my throat

and he said if you make another noise you'll never see the kids again and I remember looking up at his face and it was the first time I'd seen it I always thought he could kill me but it was this time I thought no you are going to kill me and that was it that's when I was like no

I can't because the next time I stay for evidence I will die yeah so then that started the whole process yes Sharon you talk about like living with the fact you wonder could you have done more but you'd been asked obviously

by your daughter to wait I'm just wondering how that feels very scary very scary scary it was with me 24-7 obviously you happen to kind of I always had a normal life

outside of this of whatever you can call normal life outside of this of going to work and putting up my fences, trying to hide everything, but this was just constantly, constantly in my mind of what's going on. And I would try and reach out to my daughter sometimes

to give her a call, because I hadn't heard from her for sometimes three days. It started off at three days, and then some days that were turning to a week. And I thought, that's not like our relationship, but, you know, tried to get a hold of Lucy. I'd ring her and he would pick up the phone and say,

Lucy's not well, she's got a migraine. Lucy's had a seizure. You can't talk to her. She's in bed. I knew. Yeah. I knew something. And again, I couldn't.

It's just out of my control a lot of the time. I was fearful of going around there as well. I can imagine. And what Lucy doesn't know, even probably to this day, actually, is sometimes I would jump in my car. of an evening, park my car, round the road from the flat, go to stand under her window to see if I could hear anything. Yeah, no, I do know that because he would often tell me,

why should mum outside? Jump in my car and drive away. Such a scary, scary situation. There was the guilty verdict as we talked about that. How did that feel, Lucy, and then I'll come to you, Sharon? I did tell the officers I wanted to be there physically to see him, look him in the eye

up until the day before I was going to be there for the verdict and it got to the day before and I broke down I said to everyone I said I know I know the reality I know he did these things to me

we all know and I know not guilty doesn't mean they didn't do it I know that but I knew if he got not guilty after I'd gone through all this, he would come and kill me, he would take my daughter from me, we'd have the family court fight, I was just, I was terrified.

And I said, I can't be in that courtroom and hear the words, not guilty after everything I've gone through those, the two and a half years in the relationship, and the two and a half years away in justice, and I was trying to picture his face, because I hadn't seen his face since August, 23. I said, I can't look at his face, the smug look if he's not guilty.

So I asked my best friends, my four best friends, to go. And I had a plan. I said, when you come to the door, I said, you need to shout straight away. Because if you go into detail, I'm going to panic. You need to just shout at me and what it is. And if it's bad news, you can't leave me. Because, again, it's awful to say,

but I said to my mum, my friends and family, I said I'm pretty certain if he's found not guilty. I was quite scared I'd end up killing myself. which upsets me because I have lovely children, family friends. I have so much to live for but I knew

I knew what I'd have to endure and I just couldn't go on anymore like it. And then when I'll never forget opening the door on my friend Jess shouting guilty and with that I sort of go to fall and they hold me up. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. You know, recounting such an emotional story

for both of you. If there's something that a woman who is perhaps going through abuse at the moment could take from today, what would you say? To be blunt and I'm quite blunt with it, it's hard to leave. The abuse doesn't stop when you leave,

but that doesn't mean you should stay because the end result, I know if you stay will cost you your life. The end result will be, they will kill you. So you know, need to leave but you need to do it in a safe way. There's lots of resources out there, resources I didn't know about. For example, you call 999. If you can't speak on the phone, after dialing 99,

you press 5'5 and the operator know straight away you're in immediate danger and you can't speak. I've said to people maybe make a recording or when you dial 999, throw your phone under the sofa on top of a wardrobe. Throw it somewhere so they don't know you're on the phone. Because another thing people don't realise when they say why didn't you just leave or why didn't your mum call the police? Very often, if not all the time he had any inkling, I went to someone, I would get a worse, a physical assault.

So you need to plan it and you need to plan it well, but you can't stay. Sharon, it's quite something. You've quite the daughter. Yeah. Absolutely. Very proud. Sharon with her daughter, Lucy Godley, who came into the Woman's Era studio

to record that very emotional. emotional interview with me. If you have been affected by the issues raised, then please do visit the BBC Actionline website where you will find links to help and support. Well, listening to that interview is my next guest, Baroness Louise Casey, and we'll talk about social care in just a moment.

But your thoughts on what you've just heard? Well, I think it's probably one of the more powerful interviews that I've heard, certainly in recent times, and just extraordinary the sort of way that Lucy and her mum, I mean, there'll be other women listening, I hope, today and I hope it goes out again on Saturday or some of it, to see that if you have just the enormous fortitude that Lucy, the planning, the execution of it,

I mean, just the deep, seated work that she had to put into it is just extraordinary, really. I'm enormously grateful to Women's Hour for covering it. Quite often we don't hear that side and we don't realise just how enormously difficult it is to essentially leave a man in that situation and that the level of work and energy that these incredibly nasty and evil men put into keeping them

is quite hard. And she put that across incredibly articulately and just incredibly brilliant tips at the end of the interview about, you know, if I didn't work in this world, I wouldn't realize that if you hit 999 and then press 5-5, you got a different service. I would not have known that if I didn't work

in sort of the issues that we're talking about. We really want to thank Lucy and Sharon for coming in and sharing, yeah, you know, something that is so deep and personal trying to help others. And shows, though. I mean, the government today, have, you know, it's taken a long time, but Lucy had to wait two and a half years and she put all the effort into that case herself, collecting the evidence, working with her mother.

You know, we know the facts speak for themselves that the longer you have to wait, the further that justice comes behind you on the more difficult crimes, like child abuse, child sexual exploitation, rape, sexual offences, domestic violence, all of those offences are really hard. And if the criminal justice system doesn't come behind you immediately and execute its job, we literally show those people no hope. So, you know, I really hope that the sort of speeding up of the Crown Courts and more domestic violence courts, which we had when I was there, both homelessness and actually anti-social behaviour and crime, at that point we had domestic violence courts then, that's 20 years ago. and I'm really hoping that what they're saying today brings them back and brings them back really quickly

because we have to speed it up. Sorry, I'm... No, no, and we will continue following that, but I think in that interview, we realized that time is of the essence. And Sharon and Lucy were very clear that they were afraid she might be killed. With a subscription to the BBC website and app,

you can now get early access to your favorite BBC podcasts. Listen to shows like, You're dead to me, in our time, good bad billionaire and more. Plus, there's all the other great benefits you get with a BBC subscription. From live streaming the BBC News Channel and acclaimed documentaries to in-depth analysis and features, visit BBC.com forward slash subscribe to find out more.

The Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, is facing calls to set a national waiting time target for dementia care in England. So there's a proposal for an 18-week referral to treatment target. It's been backed by you. You're leading a major review of adult social care. We know that women account for roughly two-thirds of dementia cases. Let us turn on World Alzheimer's Day. You spoke at the Alzheimer's Society Conference, this was last week, where you said the fight against dementia needs to be pursued with the same vigor

as that which turned the tide against cancer. What do you mean by that? Well, I think if you think about since the 1970s, We've had the growth of the modern hospice movement for people that are facing end of life and to do that with dignity and respect. We've had a huge change in the way that we both conducted clinical trials, treatment, screening, all of those things have taken us just to a completely different place on the word cancer. It's still a terrible word for an individual or families to hear,

and people are frightened by that, understandably. But 30 years ago, Terminal was the word that was attached to it. And I don't think that we have given sufficient emphasis to the fact we are an ageing population. It's like 1948, 1950, we died 20, 30 years younger than we currently do. Our life expectancy now is 80. If you run alongside that, the fact that women, the expression is, were not economically active. So only 35% of women were economically active working outside.

the home when the NHS was set up. So we were available to care for anybody in anything. Now, 78% of us are active, but the caring responsibilities haven't gone away. So you've got this double whammy really of a population which fantastic lives longer, but not a modern world that has kept up with that. And I think that's when you end up with sort of dementia and Alzheimer's just being completely left behind the same way older people in the NHS are left behind. You You call dementia the elephant in the room. Why? Because I think that we are, it's a thing we're most scared of. And sometimes when we're scared of something, we can't see it and talk about it. I think the same way, if we know that the national hospital services, I call it, rather than the NHS, if people coming into hospital, at sort of 43% of the human beings going through our hospitals are now over the age of 67, but we're still running hospitals as if they're, they are for 30-year-olds that have broken their legs, then essentially there's a mismatch there.

And I think the elephant in the room is the fact that we probably don't want to get old. That's why we spend a lot of time trying to avoid it. And yet we are going to get old, and we need to grip that and face up to it in a really positive way. It's a fascinating concept about that fear of ageing underlying, as you say, the NHS's modus operandi. But there are some, for example, very tangible issues. For example, Lecanamab, a new dementia drug,

the first shown to slow the progression of Alzheimer's to be licensed in Britain. It will be made in the UK, but not currently available on the NHS. Now, you pointed that as a sort of expression of wider failures to join up dementia policy. Yeah, I mean, I think there's just such an irony. isn't there, the very drug that has been created and expedited and passed, but is now seen as too expensive, which we have to have the National Institute of Clinical Excellence to double-check all of those things. I'm not saying I particularly want anybody else to do it. But I think it's part of this wider picture that we haven't put sufficient emphasis into the research and trials

and sort of life science around dementia and Alzheimer's. as we just haven't treated it like a disease. And I think until we see it as a disease, the same way we would diabetes or heart disease or indeed cancer, then it won't have the same emphasis. Hence we end up with this ironic situation that we will be shipping that drug to many other people around the world and I'm happy for them to have it.

But it will not be available to us in the UK. It's just an irony that shows something much bigger, I think. A few days ago, the Health Secretary of Eck Cooper did say the government will consider pushing for it to be made available on the NHS. And also, it's nice that you mentioned there. A spokesperson has said that they've paused its appraisal while NHS England and the company explore all reasonable opportunities to secure a positive outcome for patients and for the NHS. Let us speak about the Casey Commission. Set up why exactly? So the Casey Commission was set up because I think the issue of adult social.

care just is quite huge. And since 1948, we haven't really had a look at, I think, the sort of this seismic change in the country, which is we are living for longer and all of the changes that have run alongside that. We also, and this is joyful, many babies who would have passed away early on in their lives, now live for much longer. I think life expectancy see if somebody with Down syndrome is now so much later. Ditto with cerebral palsy. These are amazing, brilliant things. But it's like we've left it in a cupboard over there thinking somehow that's going to go away.

And it's turned into this basically debate about who funds it rather than what is a country do we want and how would we go about organising it and then who would fund it. Because a question, which is part of the ongoing review, the big conversation on care, which was on your website, I went through. I answered the various questions. It's a really interesting exercise to go through. It will be open for people to vote on the proposals until the 23rd of September. So that's Wednesday.

But the question is, when we are old or disabled or have a serious illness, who should support us and how? They're two very different things, the who and the how. They are indeed. And I think that's where, so when I looked at the 22 previous reviews and white papers, done by really good people, right, since 1997. We've looked at them previously as well but we had a good look at these.

The one thing that I think they missed out was a really deep, deliberative, like proper conversation with the public about those three questions like who should we support? How do we support ourselves? How do you think that needs to be done? Didn't happen.

And I think unless it was a reform of this size and nature, I think it's really, really important. It's like I'm already clear in my own mind. and I think this has the support of the charities involved. Like last week I spent Wednesday with people with quite profound learning disabilities with MENCAP and realise that what they need in their lives at 25, 41 is very, very different to the following day, whereas with the Alzheimer's Society. And I think that we muddle all of this up into one big thing.

And actually, as we get older and what we need is very, very, very. different to supporting a 42-year-old with Down syndrome who actually wants to live and does live, thank God, because of his mum fighting the system. He manages to live a really good, an independent life. And I think that over time, because this has been in the two difficult box, and partly that's why the big conversation is so important, is to take it out of the two difficult box, put it on the table and let us have a conversation about it, I think is where we need to head. Well, many will have seen, however, the Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, has requested, this was in July, to speed things up and have the Commission's final report next summer. Now, that's a whole year, I believe. Yeah, I'm delighted, of course, because... Are you? Yeah, no, patience isn't my speciality.

But you have so much to do. We have a lot to do. We have a lot to do. But we, I mean, essentially, you know, young Andy Burnham arrives as Prime Minister. He's got personal experience, as we know, of his father having... Alzheimer's and being in a care home. I think that his own personal experience speaks to so many of us that have that same experience and he's injected urgency. The one thing I've often said over the years in many roles, whether it's delivering change

or reviewing what needs to change, is when you're in government, sometimes you just take responsibility for that and crack on. And democracy is about electing governments to make those choices and they prioritize things. He's prioritised this. I'm delighted. And I think, you know, we have got less than a year now, but we have a year to actually take everything that we have learned and done in the last 18 months and try and work out now what that reform looks like.

But can you get to that depth that you need to? Well, remember, we've been going 18 months already. Okay. And I was already planning on bringing in in 2027. So I had no intention of leaving this until 2028. The expression inserted by a civil service colleague of mine into our terms of reference was by 2028. And so I already knew that we had to bring this in in 27 because otherwise we wouldn't be able to start making the changes and plan for the changes that were needed ahead of a general election.

A national care service is one of the issues that Andy Burnham has talked about. I read that you said, I'm off the view that we need a national health and care service. The public don't see the difference and I don't. The divide between what is care and what is health does not exist to the public. It is our divide. But do you think you have buy-in on that? Well, it's my job to double-check whether that's correct, to see what the British public think about it.

And I think, you know, for me, the facts and the evidence should always speak for themselves. I think that if you think about it now, the number of district nurses that are, I think district nurses have gone down by something like 30 or 40%, whereas nurses in hospitals have gone up by 30 to 40%. If you're looking at a frail elderly population, they need people going into their homes.

They don't exist anymore. The number of hospital consultants has gone up by 60% the number of GPs has flatlined. That tells you that all of our attention is going into hospitals, hospitals, hospitals, and not enough attention is going into what's happening in people's homes and preventing them ending up in hospital. And that's where I think if somebody's coming to look at my leg that needs dressing, I don't necessarily work out who that is. I just need to make sure that somebody is doing that.

And I think these divides are about us as a state and a system. But as we know within the caring profession, be it paid, perhaps badly paid, or unpaid, women are really at the centre of that population. And I'm sure many listening are wondering what might change for them, for example. How do you ensure that the experiences that they're going through are heard? Well, that's partly why the big conversation is just such an important part of what we're doing. And I strongly encourage anybody listening to this programme to go on the website. It's cc commission.comit.comitian.com.com slash big conversation and thank you.

I mean, more generally, I think that I'm 61. Most of my friends are in what's called the sandwich generation. They're younger, some are younger, some relationships. little bit older. They are now dealing with elderly parents and still children that they want to look after and they're stuck between trying to, you know, from pillar to post, the adult social care system in the NHS, trying to even get an appointment with a GP where you actually want to talk about a friend of mine, a neighbour of mine, her mother's on eight different medicines. They time when they see the doctor so they can see a doctor they actually

know and then they have to work out which symptom or which condition will they talk about in the 10 minutes. This is not a way we should be treating people and I think that story and many of those like you don't want your parent when they fall over to be taken into hospital because they're going to end up on a trolley where they will stay on that trolley often for hours and hours and hours. That's the last thing you do with somebody that's elderly. A 25 year old might cope with that. A 75 year old is not going to. That will resonate. with so many people in the country and I think that they were wanted to change.

But you are so aware of recommendations that have been put forward to governments that have not been acted upon despite the amount of blood, sweat and tears to get to that point with an actual report. Are you hopeful with this? So I am hoping this time round. A, we have done a really thorough job

and we will continue to do a thorough job. B, I think that the Prime Minister, I'm not saying Keir Starmad, didn't because he was very committed to the Casey commission, but Andy has arrived saying, I want to get on with this and I want to get on it sooner rather than later. Somebody like me looks at that. I know him very well and I'm thinking, okay,

maybe we have a chance to motor on some of this stuff a little faster and I think we should get the wind behind us and carry on. Baroness Louise Casey, Thank you very much for coming into us on Woman's Hour this morning. And if you want to take part, as she said, just search online for the big conversation and you can add your views. Thank you for your messages that are coming in. Rebecca got in touch. She says, I'm listening to your program, sobbing.

I'm feeling for Lucy and her mother, absolutely heartbreaking. I'm sending love and strength to them both. I'm glad she survived and she is so brave for speaking out. Another, we're going through this now with my daughter, years of abuse. Last year, he nearly killed her, but failed. We aren't even at court yet. He's walking around still. And my daughter and grandson have ought to change location for safety and live in fear daily.

I'm so sorry you're going through that. Thank you very much for all of you getting in touch. And I see some of you sharing your stories as well, 844-8-4-4-4. If you would like to get in touch. Well, we were talking about social care and talking about dementia in particular, to treat it like cancer with our previous guest, Louise Casey. Let us move on. to a play that is called Tits Up

and this takes a heartfelt and honest look at breast cancer. This is a cancer which will affect one in seven women during their lifetime and the question is, what is life like after such a diagnosis? Well, this play began its life in Newcastle and follows four very different women who bond in an oncology waiting room. It's written by Alison Stanley and Lea Bell,

who also starring it, along with Chrissy Rock and Katie Potts, and it's about to embark on a chance 23-date UK tour that's in October before being developed into a feature film for release next spring so it is all going on. Lea Bell, Chrissy Rock, welcome to the studio. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. They are so welcome. Leah, let me begin with you. I haven't had the opportunity yet to see this play as you're about to embark. Give us a sense of what one could expect. Well, although it is about ladies who've been diagnosed with breast cancer,

It is about the friendships and the bond they make in the oncology department where they all support each other. These four ladies are so different. In a normal walk of life, they would never really cross each other's path. So give us an idea of the women. Well, my character is an old lady, which is great because I am an old lady. And she's got secondary cancer, but she's. She has nothing in her life and she views her visits to oncology as a day out.

She takes her knitting and, you know. I can see where some of the humor is coming from already. And then Chrissy's characters, brush and bold. We don't know where we got that from, but there you go. Where could that have come from, Chrissy? I don't know how that happened. And then Katie, who's the newest edition, she's 19. it's because most young people don't think that breast cancer will affect them.

They think it's for older people. So it's very heart-wrenching when she, she's a lovely actress on it. It's very heart-wrenching. And then Alison, the lady that we wrote the play together, she plays rather a posh lady who's very much in control of her life and our business and she thinks she can just manage this. Never a hair out of place from some of the little trailers that I was watching. But, you know, it could be a tight rope to walk.

It is a serious subject. It obviously is so, throws life into disarray and changes everything when somebody gets a diagnosis like this. How do you balance humour with such a serious subject, Chrissy? Well, you think to yourself, when we're doing this film, when we were doing the play, and it was quite intimate, to look at them, looking at a, us, it was like the laughing and the crying and it sweeps us

all as well. And the thing that I, as a survivor of cancer myself, I didn't relate to an 18 year old girl having breast cancer. And the saddest part for me is when you're there

Katie going, what do I lose my hair, what of this, what of that? You know, and it's the thing is, you don't realize how important hair is to young ones. You know, you say, I'm nipping the shop, do you want to come? Three hours later, I'm just straightening my hair, just put me on. So you've got to think how devastating it is for anybody who gets cancer,

but for a young girl. And we have spoken about young women, of course, getting breast cancer and the importance of screening. and so that's one aspect that comes up in the play. But I suppose that waiting room gives it a very specific situation and a place where people can bond while something that is life-changing

but also, I suppose, very mundane while you're waiting for somebody to come out. Well, it's a confined space. So they're all waiting. That's the operative word. They're waiting. And they know that what they're waiting for is probably not,

what they want to encounter. So they start talking to each other, in particular my character, who's quite nosy, they start talking to each other about subjects that you wouldn't talk to strangers about. And of course, their reaction...

Do you want to gather boldie? My bag is full of all sorts of stuff. And annoyingly, my character keeps thinking, well, I'll offer these rounds, you know. And so the bonds slowly start to form and they realise that they'll have to find strength with each other, helping each other through. Yes, because there is that shared experience,

even if you are at a different age, you're coming from a different background. It is, and the thing is, when we, Alison character, she's very, you know, I've got this sorted. Yeah, she wants to be in control. Yeah, and she thinks she's in, control where my character, I don't want to talk about it because if I have to talk about it, I have to admit that I've got it. So I dismiss it all the time, don't I? And I suppose

it's different people's way of coping, which I'm sure will resonate with lots of people listening as well. We know it's such a common cancer among women. Yes, primarily older women, but also younger women, as you say. What do you think, Leah, the play reveals about the relationships between women in such a situation? I think it reveals that when the chips go down, eventually you look around whatever rose-coloured glasses you've been wearing in your life, you take them off

and you just realise that whatever you've got, whoever you are, you are in the same boat. So whatever's you've done in your life, it really doesn't count now. So it's all stripped back. There's a part where Leah does,

where she's talking from my mind, but she's talking to the audience, and I'm at the back, literally in tears, aren't I? And she goes, stop, crack. Well, now, what it was, when we were rehearsing it, and Chrissy hadn't heard the monologue, we were in a rehearsal room, luckily. So I was doing the monologue, and I could hear,

uh-huh, behind me. Chrissy, I won't be able to do it if you're going to do that. I know. I'm supposed to be... I mean, you're making me laugh, but it, I mean, it's very moving. And I know, as you mentioned there, Chrissy, that you did have cancer, albeit not breast cancer, but I'm wondering, what was it like then to be performing in a play like this? It makes you realise that you're glad that, you know, you had cancer, you've survived here. And in the play, more people live with cancer than die of cancer.

Because when you hear the word, cancer, you go, that's my death sentence. But it's not. But it's so interesting, Louise Casey, that was here previously. she talked about like back in the day Terminal would have always been attached to the word but it's not anymore. We're in a different place which is a hopeful. Well I think it's not said

but I think mentally you still think it so you say the word cancer you don't say terminal but your brain still says it to you quietly so you're still thinking that and so that puts you on edge and in a different place anyway

when you are talking to people And you know, when people have got that diagnosis, they speak quite candidly about it to each other. They think that they're the people who really will get it. Yeah. Not my family at home who are just worried about me. Oh, you're worried about their emotions? Yes.

And so it may be there's a burden there as well. Yeah, because you do worry, you stop, you detach yourself from that situation. And all you can think about it, how are they going to cope? Because once you're all gone, you're gone. Do you know what I mean? And the thing is, when Lee has done it,

Leah's character, she's got a son who's got learning difficulties. And when she says to it, Rodney, I don't think I'm going to make it this time. And I don't know. I'm just saying this, that and the other. But the funny bit is well, she's making him a book.

Because tell them about the bins. I wanted to put the bins out, the black bins out. But what you forgot to tell them was, put our black bins out. So he's put the holes. Well, everybody would be very happy about that. But this is, it is a funny play, right? It is funny. I mean, the first time we did it,

Alison and I were quite anxious as actresses, because you're doing a new piece, but anxious as writers that you've got the comedy so it's not going to offend anybody, or make people think that you're belittling. Their experience, of course. And so just before we went on, when we were anxious enough, the manager came back and said,

there's a lady's trip booked in, ladies living with cancer, and we went, oh my gosh, thank you. And? Well, when we went out, we knew where they were. And they were amazing. And they came up to us after and said, it was so real. It was so real.

And we were with you all the way, through the journey. Well, that is mission accomplished. I know a film is in, currently in post-production. That's fantastic. Congratulations. Thank you. Looking forward to that, no doubt.

Well, yeah, I never thought I'd be 73 in making a movie, but, you know, there's time for anything. But the funniest thing for me was, because Alison plays a posh person, we haven't got a clue. And she said, if you're going to get wrinkles, she's out now. Charlotte tells me.

And she went, who does she wear here? She's a gossip. Talking about the makeup artist. So lovely to have both of you in, Leabel and Chrissy Rock. And the play is Tits Up. Thank you very much for sharing with us. Thanks for that. Thank you.

Let me move on instead to, as we were starting the beginning of the program, as you heard in the news bulletin this morning, the government has announced that specialist courtrooms for rape and serious sexual offence cases will be introduced in every Crown Court in England and Wales over the next two years. They'll include measures such as separate waiting areas, entrances for victims, facilities to give evidence remotely and specially trained court staff. The government says the changes will improve victims' experience of the justice system and help tackle long delays.

Let's take a couple of minutes with Kira Bergman, Chief Executive of Rape Crisis, England and Wales to get her reaction. Good to have you with us, Kira. First off, as you heard the announcement, your thoughts. Good morning. Yeah, we welcome today's announcement, Specialist Rape Court. They've been promoted before. This isn't the first time. But the reality has been really just a sort of handful of limited pilots.

So this package is about ensuring that all Crown Courts are equipped to deal with rape and serious sexual offence cases. So it's the combination of measures, really, that we're especially pleased with. There's a couple of questions. I mentioned there promising private entrances, separate waiting rooms, giving remote evidence. How realistic do you think that is in older court buildings? Yeah, I mean, what's been announced today reflects what rape crisis and our members have been saying for many, many years, which is that the current system, including the facilities, are desperately traumatising for survivors and their loved ones. And what's needed is a truly system-wide package of improvements. So, you know, we absolutely welcome the investment in upgrading the courts because not having separate waiting areas, having to come into contact with, the person that's going to be on trial, those things are incredibly upsetting.

And they really impede survivors' ability to engage in the justice process. But it's going to take time and it's going to be complicated because not all buildings will be easy to upgrade. And so with all of these things, the devil's in the detail. But we really need to see how all of this is going to be implemented to know if it's going to really make that difference. Do you expect the specialist court to be very different from an ordinary Crown Court? Well, we do expect there to be some significant differences if this is implemented well. So making sure, as I've said, that that physical space doesn't actually make it more difficult for someone to participate in the process, either because they're feeling frightened or distressed or intimidated because they can't sit separately,

or if it's about giving evidence remotely where that hasn't been possible because of particular facilities. But we also know there are other things announced in this package, which are important. So there's a lot of duplication in the current system and that really needs addressing because survivors need timely updates and they need to be prepared for court. And also, and this is critical, the practices around listing of trials is going to be improved. And so this current situation where survivors already waiting years and years and years for their case to go to trial, then experiencing last minute cancellations and postponements and all the rest of, of it is just profoundly distressing. And for that, change is going to be significant. Because I think that's a question many people will have.

If you're in a legal proceeding right now and awaiting justice, will this announcement actually help you in practical terms? Yeah. And I think that's going to be a question that many, many people have. It's going to take time. This is about the whole system. And even these measures won't address all of the problems that survivors are facing. You know, we still have a shortage of barristers.

And there will be lots of other issues that also. need to be addressed. So at the moment, we don't have enough information to know how many people's cases will this touch and improve, but certainly for the future. Yeah, as Baroness Casey said, it's that hope for survivors and hopefully improve trust and confidence in the system. But we don't know if it will actually reduce the backlog of rape cases. Is that correct? That's right. We don't have enough detail to know how this is going to impact on the backlog. Obviously we need to see waiting times reduced for survivors and the listing practice announcement is part of that. But we really won't know until further down the line. And so,

yeah, we will have to wait and see on that. Okay. But hopeful, I think, is part of what you're feeling in reaction to this announcement, but wanting to know more details, of course. It is one of the stories in the News Bulletin this morning. It is a story, of course, that we will continue to follow as well, Carol Bergman, Chief Executive of Rafe Crisis, England and Wales. Thanks so much for joining us. Back to our interview with Lucy Godley, one woman says, I am trembling from listening to this. This woman and all victims of domestic abuse are stronger than we'll ever know,

and I pray they find their ways out. Join me tomorrow. We have the best-selling author, Leanne Moriarty. She'll talk to us about her new sequel to Big Little Lies. It's called Big Little Truths. I will see you then at 10. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.

I haven't seen my son since 2012. That's the last time I hugged him. I know that my son is somewhere alive. This is Deborah Tice. Her son Austin is one of the biggest missing person cases in the world. And for years, I've been searching for him. Oh, gunshots. Somebody's written a message in the morning blood.

What do you want from me? I want you to solve the mystery. I want to know about my son. Where is Austin Tice from BBC Radio 4? Listen on the I'm Not a Monster Presents podcast on BBC Sounds. Welcome to the haunted library. Have you come in search of a tale? This podcast invites you to browse the shelves

and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place. From Gothic masterpieces to Pulpy Pennyton. dreadfuls. Join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week. Find The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts.