Woman's Hour - Domestic Violence on EastEnders, Nudity, Wool

Episode Date: September 18, 2020

The domestic abuse story in EastEnders comes to a tragic end tonight. Chantelle is killed by her husband, Gray. We speak to the Head of Continuing Drama at BBC Studios, Kate Oates, and Sarah Davidge from Woman’s Aid, about how the storyline reflects the sharp rise in domestic violence during lockdown. Are you happy being naked in front of your children? Or does it make you feel uncomfortable? We talk to the illustrator Rosie Haine who’s created a children’s book called “It Isn’t Rude to be Nude”. It's full of naked bodies of all shapes and sizes. We also hear from psychologist Dr Keon West from Goldsmiths in London whose research suggests nudity might help with body image and self-esteem. A new film called Rocks focuses on a teenage schoolgirl and her group of loyal friends. One day Rocks' mother leaves and she’s left to care for herself and her seven year old brother. The story was developed in workshops with teenage girls and the cast is largely made up of non-professional actors. The film has received rave reviews on the international festival circuit. Two of the lead characters Bukky Bakray and Kosar Ali plus the director, Sarah Gavron, talk to us about the film and what it says about empowerment, banter and female friendship.The sale of wool has recently gone up but behind the scenes it's not all rosy. Since the pandemic hit, the price farmers get for their fleeces has dropped by nearly 50%, with some saying the situation's so bad they actually lose money when selling it. We talk to knitting designer and wool producer, Susan Crawford and to Minette Batters, the President of the National Union of Farmers.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Friday the 18th of September 2020. Good morning. Knitting has become an ever more popular pastime but the farmers who supply the wool trade are in trouble. What will be the result of a 50% fall in the price of a fleece caused by the pandemic? A much acclaimed new film, Rocks, tells the story of a

diverse group of schoolgirls at a school in East London. We'll meet two of the girls who were chosen to play the lead roles and the director, Sarah Gavron. And a new picture book for children. It isn't rude to be nude. But how should parents and children behave in front of each other, naked or not? Now, if you're a fan of EastEnders, you'll be familiar with the long-running storyline of Chantal and Grey. They appear on the outside to be the perfect couple. She's beautiful, he's handsome and he's charming.

They have lovely children, he's a lawyer and they live in the best house on the square. But behind closed doors, all is not well. In last night's episode, Chantelle tried to escape with the children when she was on holiday with her parents. But Grey turned up unexpectedly. Family holiday. Just what we wanted after all those weeks locked in the house. Sun, beach, maybe an ice cream. I'll let you settle and I'll...

What? You'll do what? I'll go and see if the kids are okay. Why wouldn't they be okay? You think you go away and I can't cope? Grey, you're getting the wrong idea. Don't tell me what I'm getting. I know you.

I know you. You. Do you understand? I am inside your head. So you just remember that, all right? No smart comments out there. Let's just grin and have a good time with the kids. And then first thing tomorrow, we're leaving.

Fine. Fine. Wherever you want. Jessica Plummer as Chantal and Toby Alexander-Smith as Grey. Now, it's no secret that tonight's episode will show the fatal consequences of their relationship. I'm joined by Sarah Davidge from Women's Aid and Kate Oates, the head of continuing drama for BBC Studios. Kate, what inspired you to write this storyline? Well, actually, it was Woman's Hour. So the kind of drama that I make and the kind of TV that I make, we make an awful lot of content and I'm always looking for story inspiration. So I listen to a lot of podcasts and a lot of documentaries and Women's Hour has always been fantastic inspiration because of the range of stories that you tell and people that you talk to and it was a couple of years ago I was listening to a

Women's Hour podcast and I just started on these standards actually and I was thinking about what long-running stories we might tell that might have a significant impact and the statistic the really alarming statistic was was part of your program about how many women lose their lives as a result of a partner or an ex-partner and I sort of thought I kind of know that I know how high that number is but it still really shocked me and I realized that I'd never seen that played out on a serial drama or a soap opera even though I'd seen an awful lot of stories about domestic violence so I thought if that's the truth of this story, then we should tell it. Sarah, how closely does what's happening now reflect what's actually been happening during lockdown?

We know numbers have gone up. Yeah, the storyline on EastEnders, I mean, we've worked really closely with the researchers and the cast to make sure it reflects what really happens in survivors' lives. And I know, you know, working with Toby to make sure that Gray is represented as a, you know, very real perpetrator. And because we are constantly working with survivors and talking to survivors, we've been able to feed their experiences into the EastEnders team in real time. So they've been able to adapt that to what we're finding out, particularly through COVID, when we've just been in contact so much. And we have seen, you know, women trapped with their abusers during lockdown and domestic, you know, the lockdown doesn't cause domestic abuse, but it escalates and heightens what's already there because it's given perpetrators like Gray another tool to use to control their victims.

At the outset, Kate, there was no explicit abuse that was witnessed by the audience, I think for around three months. Why was that? We really wanted to bring to life the old saying that you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. And I think that especially today, modern society, we're so used to seeing filtered images of people's lives and what people want to portray. People want to portray that they have a perfect life and they feel a pressure to do so.

And Chantelle, because everyone keeps telling her how lucky she is and, oh, my God, I'd love a husband like yours and I'd love a life like yours, I'd love a life like yours that she feels a pressure to kind of support that myth and she's doing it massively to her own cost because obviously if she would talk to somebody about what was really going on in her home life then people would have the opportunity to help her and she would take some of that power away but instead she decides to keep quiet and sort of keep this no filter needed appearance that she has and so the very first time we crossed the threshold of their home,

three months after the characters first appeared in the square, was the first time we saw him hit her and we brought very vividly to life the fact that you don't know what goes on behind closed doors and the truth of their picture perfect relationship, not so perfect sarah what common misconceptions about victims and abusers would you say have been tackled in the program i'm getting back to kate's point really about that that image of the perfect life that there are stereotypes there are myths that are really prevalent in society about what an abuser looks like and what a victim looks like or a survivor looks like as well and i think what we've got with with Gray and Chantel is a chance to really to challenge that

because the way that Gray presents in real life when he's with her friends and her family you know it's so different he's this savior doing free legal representation for other people on the square he's an upstanding member of the community and then behind closed doors it's this completely different scenario and only Chantal knows what's really really going on and also Chantal she's a strong woman she's and I think that quite often we hear people people can think you know domestic abuse doesn't happen to me it happens to people who would let it happen it doesn Domestic abuse can happen to anybody. And some of the survivors of domestic abuse I've met whilst working at Women's Aid are the strongest women that I've ever met. Kate, she suffers physical abuse and, of course, coercive control.

She's isolated from friends and family and she's raped. How did you decide what you would actually depict uh well it's a it's a sort of um two-pronged question that really i suppose so first of all you have to be truthful to character so we were looking at gray an educated man a clever man someone who works in the legal profession he knows how to cover his tracks so uh we we looked at things that he would employ, strategies that he would employ that were truthful to his character. Equally, you know, we're a pre-Watershed drama. And so we're very heavily complied, rightly so. We have a great editorial policy team who read every script and watch every episode and give us very, very detailed notes. So it's about striking that balance between showing the truth and not crossing a line too far.

But I think it's right that people should be shocked and upset by what they see on screen because it is a shocking and upsetting story and it goes on in your street, it goes on in your town, it may go on with people that you know and I think that people really do need to sit up and take notice of that and think about it and think about how they might respond to this situation and how they might help because if it's if it's too easily

tidied away or or too easily underplayed on screen then sometimes you miss out on those emotions that actually drive society forward to make changes because of what they've seen. Sarah, Grey keeps control with apps on her phone and on her car so he can trace her. How much have perpetrators adopted technology in their abuse? That's a really good question, because I what um the same as with with covid really this this use of technology it really shows how clever perpetrators are because this is technology is is part of our life now you you can't get away from it i'm talking to you through a laptop at home it's it's a part of everything that we do so this is really common i think it's actually harder to

find where technology is not used as part of the abuse. That can be things like we saw in the programme where he's putting the tracker up on her phone. And, you know, of course, you want me to do this. It's for the children's safety. It can be things like cyberbullying kind of behaviours, revenge porn, trolling and, you know, those kind of abusive behaviours that are just as real if they happen over, you know, virtually as if they happen face to face. And also things like controlling freedoms as well. So if you take away somebody's access to technology, you take away so much of their support networks. One of the things that we've seen during COVID, during lockdown, is survivors feeling ever more isolated and that you know that access to the

internet becoming ever more important because it's for some women that was the only contact they had with the outside world so perpetrators by controlling that can you know really perpetrate domestic abuse and one of the reasons women say work really closely with platforms like Facebook and Twitter and to you know it's because you can't have a proper response to domestic abuse without taking into account the importance of social media. As Kate was just saying, tackling domestic abuse is for all of us to do, and that's why tackling all these different aspects of abuse in these storylines and raising awareness of just exactly

how many different controlling behaviours are part of that is so important. Sarah, I know you've worked with the actors, Jess and Toby. How difficult have they found these roles? They have just taken it so seriously and done so much research and, you know, I'm amazed at the amount of work that goes into that because I know in my role in reading and absorbing the stories that we hear all the time, it's hard. It's hard to do that.

But the results of it are so clear in the performances that we're seeing on screen. They are so realistic. I, you know, watch them. I just really feel the scene last night where Chantel decides to leave with Grey rather than stay with her family. And they're just staring at each other. And in that stare, I can see everything that's happened, this slow burn, this build up over the years. I can see

the decisions that Chantelle's making, those really difficult ones. And the response that we've had from survivors through Women's Aid and Direct Services has been so positive, saying that, you know, that it's really reflecting real life, their experiences. One survivor, there's a bath scene, and we had a survivor get in touch to say how close that was to her experience. So it's been phenomenal. Sarah Davidge and Kate Oates, thank you very much indeed. And of course, the episode I mentioned earlier will be tonight with its tragic consequences.

Thank you both. Now, I suspect it's not uncommon in a lot of families for mum, dad and little children to wander around the house with no clothes on. In my experience, it gets a bit more difficult as the children get a bit older and neither want to be seen naked or indeed to see their parents in their birthday suits. How do we navigate this whole question? How do you communicate that your body is nothing to be ashamed of whilst never creating any embarrassment? Well, Dr. Kion West is a reader in social psychology at Goldsmiths University of London. Rosie Hain is the author and illustrator of a picture book for children called It Isn't Rude to be Nude. Rosie, why did you decide to make this book? Hello, Jenny. Yeah, it kind of came about because I really enjoy drawing naked people. I've done a

lot of life drawing and it's something I just doodle anyway. I tend to draw imaginary naked people. And I realised I hadn't really seen that in children's books. So doodle anyway. I tend to draw imaginary naked people. And I realised I hadn't really seen that in children's books, so I sort of thought I was onto something. And then beyond that, I just think it is important to see people naked in a sort of non-sexual, normal context, to see adults naked, normal adults naked. So it kind of came from there. Kion, some parents, I think, are comfortable with nudity,

others absolutely not. What would you say are the pros and cons of either doing it or not doing it? That's a very good question. I would like to say that as early as the 1960s, there was quite a lot of research trying to really pin down what the cons were. And this research came from a mindset that something was seriously wrong with people who did this, or something very bad would happen to the children if you did that. And so they looked for these bad things throughout the 60s and to some extent in the 80s and the 90s, and they reliably didn't find them. So when you say what the cons are, for me, I can't identify any cons, because I'd have to rely on the research to do that. And the research hasn't found any so far. The pros, however, that's a bit of a different story. So sometimes they'd accidentally find pros when they were looking for cons. So they were

looking for things like discomfort around sex or physical affection. But they actually found in one study in the 80s, particularly for men, that if their parents were comfortable being naked when they were younger, they were more comfortable with physical affection. And they had healthier sexual relationships. Some studies did find, I guess, the one thing that you could call a con for both men and women, what they'd call a higher tendency to engage in casual sex. But I think that's more a matter of your personal take on things than an objective con. But what about the teenager who, you know, has been perfectly happy to wander around the house naked

with his or her parent, and then suddenly, age 13 or so, says, no, you know, don't come in, I've not got my clothes on. That surely must be a difficult time for a teenager. Yes, and there haven't really been any good, large, empirical studies on what happens to teenagers. So generally people tend to do this research before the teen years or as adults. And I suppose there must still be some taboos around naked teenagers. And I think we could all understand why.

But I could say from the very small amount of qualitative research that that isn't really what tends to happen. That in families where people are very comfortable with nudity and nothing else has gone wrong, there's nothing else that's happened, people tend to remain fairly comfortable. It's actually in the families where children are taught from very early on that there's something shameful or difficult or worrying that they then become very closed as they get older. Rosie, what was it like for you when you were young? Yeah, my parents weren't prudish. I would see them naked in kind of normal situations, like if they were having a bath and I wanted to go into the bathroom or if they were getting changed. So there was definitely no shame around the naked body but certainly as I became a teenager it sort of stopped happening and I didn't really want them to see me naked and I think you know that's just was my choice I suppose. But then then as you got older would

you have been happy that I mean teenagers teenagers are difficult time for everybody, isn't it? Yeah, I'm not sure, possibly. I mean, me and my parents don't see each other naked now for whatever reason. But yeah, I'm not quite sure how to answer that question, actually. Kian, how does the British attitude to nudity compare with other countries? I think it compares. There's so many things that are great about the british attitude and so many things that could really use some work um to run over a few things compared to many of our european neighbors we are much more prudish i suppose you

could use that word so we are less likely to take our clothes off and more likely to have a reaction to someone who does uh so there i mean, one of the biggest differences, I guess, would be when you look at nude beaches in England, that they're always the really rocky, horrible part of the beach, put to the side, hidden away, protected from everything else, far away from the children. And if you go to a nude beach somewhere else, I've been to some in Germany and in Spain,

and they're right in the middle of the beach. They take up prime property, prime space, right in the middle. Everyone can see it. Sometimes you have to walk through it to get to the other beaches, and everyone's much more relaxed about it. People don't seem to be as uptight or as excited about it. But why might that be? I think the British, so I think actually a lot of it can be understood, even in terms of the way that we as Brits discuss nudity when we do it in defense of nudity. So even the title, Nude is Not Rude, it is very much reminiscent of the earlier Black is Beautiful campaign. And you only need a campaign like that if there's a strong societal message that nude is rude.

And rude is one easy way of encapsulating it. But in the UK, there is an idea that so many things are caught up in being naked, that if you're naked, you're automatically doing something sexual. You are probably dangerous or predatory to children. And I think, very important for me, you're automatically deserving of less respect that people who are willing to be naked around other people simply should not be treated as well as they would be otherwise. Rosie how hard was it to find the right language for this I mean it is essentially a picture book but there are words on every page like everybody has a bum, nipples are normal. And then for boys, you use the word

willies and for girls, vulvas. Why? Yeah, so the language of the book was very difficult. And I started out wanting to use those informal sort of silly terms, like bum and willy and boobs. But then when I came to girls, it was really difficult because I just couldn't think of a sort of colloquial neutral term to call female genitalia. And I kind of thought about using fanny, but then some people were uncomfortable with that. In the first iteration of the book, I used the word vagina, but that's not actually anatomically correct for what you can see in the images. And it's often misused to describe the whole of a woman's bits so to speak whereas vulva is actually factually correct and what you can see and I thought it was like a little used word and maybe not known and so I thought it might be quite nice to introduce it

to people and to girls to use if they want to. Keon what is the best way to discuss nudity and describe bodies to children? What words would you use? So I don't know if there is a single best way. I'd say there are a range of things you could do that would probably make it better. I think that when it comes to discussing most things with children, I'd say first, be as honest as you can. I don't think children benefit from parents lying to them. I don't think that's particularly helpful. And the second thing I would say is

try to, as much as possible, be aware of what your own hang-ups are. We can often pass on our own anxieties to our children just because we haven't dealt with them. And just because you happen to be uncomfortable with some aspect of the human body or some aspect of sexuality or some aspect of something else, it doesn't mean that you should automatically make your children inheritors of that discomfort. And just finally, Rosie, how did publishers react to you wanting to publish a book

about nudity? Yeah, that was really interesting. I did show it to a lot of publishers, both in this country and internationally. And I got a really, really positive response. A lot of them found it really, really funny. And that was really, really nice. But then they would say, I love it, but my boss would kill me, or I could never publish this in my country, or I just don't know if it will sell. And so I think there's this idea that something a little bit risque might not make any money. And that's what it's always about, really, for publishers. But luckily, Tate really, really liked it. And they also felt that as an art gallery or art collection,

it's absolutely full of naked representations of people that they couldn't really blush at a book with nudity in it. Rosie Hayne and Dr Keon West, thank you both very much indeed and we would like to hear from you on this subject. How is it in your house? Do you walk around naked or do you cover up? You can send us an email or of course you can send a tweet. Now still to come in today's programme, as knitting becomes ever more popular, what's happening to the wool trade? We discuss the impact of the pandemic on sheep farmers who've seen a 50% fall in the price of their fleeces. And the serial, of course, the final episode of Lifelines.

And next week, by the way, we'll be discussing playground politics outside the school gates. If you've ever been given the silent treatment by another parent or felt excluded from a group of mothers, we would like to hear from you again. You can send us an email or a tweet. A film called Rocks has been a huge hit on the festival circuit, and today it goes on general release. The title is the name of a teenage girl who's one of a diverse group of friends at a school in Hackney in East London. They have a lot of fun, they have games and giggles, but Rocks finds her life is disrupted when her mother disappears from home and she's left in charge of her little brother, seven-year-old Emmanuel.

She tries to keep going, avoiding social services, and has to fall back on her loyal friends. Well, the two girls who were picked for the two lead roles are Kosa Ali, who plays Sumaya and is of Somali background, and Bucky Bacre, who's British Nigerian. The director of the film is Sarah Gavron, who directed Suffragette, and then decided she wanted to make a film about young women for young women. Why? Growing up, none of us in the creative team had seen films that centred young women,

and it felt exciting to get together a group of people and build a film about what the experience of growing up today is for these young girls and also to build it with them so that we really could make something that was truly reflective of their lives now, because we're obviously quite far away from that. Now, the cast is primarily first time actors who are not professionals. Why did you decide to go down that route? We worked with a casting director called Lucy Pardee, who has a way of going into schools. We wanted to do something that felt like it was representative of the girls we see on our buses, the girls in our schools, the girls in our streets. And a lot of those girls don't find their way to acting.

You know, we know we've got a pretty inaccessible film industry although we're hoping it's changing so she went into youth hubs she went into schools she found um young people like bookie and kosar who wanted to come on this journey with us of building the script also theresa rococo and claire wilson were in those classrooms too and so it was right from the beginning, it was very collaborative and the girls were involved. Bucky, what was it like suspecting that there was somebody peering at you to see if you might be an actress? Initially, when Sarah Gavron and Lucy Pardee

were at the back of our classes, we didn't know what to make of it. I feel like me and my friends thought that they were a part of Austed. The word film didn't ring a bell until the very first workshop. So I remember misbehaving in my drama classes and then looking back and remembering that these two women were at the back and I would just tell myself, Bookie, fix up. But I didn't feel any type of way about them being at the back of my classroom because I didn't think that it would amount to anything. And Katar, what about you? How aware were you that you were being sized up for a part in a film?

Yeah, like Bookie said, to be honest, at the time we didn't know it was going to be for a film. So I didn't even acknowledge their presence. I was kind of going about my school day and just thinking there were teachers at the back of the class. Now, Bucky, you play the central character, Rox, who's British Nigerian, who finds she has to care for her little brother, who's seven, when her mother takes off. How would you describe her as a character?

I would describe Rox as a charismatic young woman who has a lot to give. I would describe her as someone who's grown up too quickly. I would describe her as a lot of young brown women from London. And, Kosa, you play her friend, Samaya. How do you see her role in the story? I think she's just one person in Rox's life who cares for her wholeheartedly and wants what's best for her. She's a bit protective, loving,

and she's just a very, I feel like, wholesome and loving character. There is, Bucky, a real friendship group at the centre. It's not just the two of you. There's a whole group of you. School girls with lots of banter, which took me back a very long time, I have to tell you. It's a long time since i was at

school and there's good behavior there's bad behavior there is on one occasion pretty appalling behavior when a food fight takes place but how well do you reckon the film captures that spirit of a group of girls and their banter? I believe that it captures it really well, not to come across as egocentric, but when like the happy moments that you see depicted on screen, that was just us as a cast enjoying ourselves, speaking amongst ourselves. as you know that it was very much directed improvisations so at times we would just be talking amongst ourselves um as a cast and we wouldn't even know that the camera was rolling that's um something that Sarah really wanted to push for a natural energy and a natural kind of vibe if should say, amongst us as actors and actresses.

A lot of the conversation was coming from us as well as the scripted conversation written by Teresa Akoko and Claire Wilson. And in terms of it being truly depicted, some of the reactions that we've got from Toronto Film Festival and London Film Festival have people been saying, this is so nostalgic, it's really taken us back to when we were teenagers. And from what people have said, it's really given us validation

to think that we've actually truly depicted friendship on screen. You, I know, Bucky, have grown up in Hackney. How accurate is the diversity of the group that we see in the film? I think it's incredibly accurate. I mean, I went to an all-girls school in East London and my school was predominantly Asian and my friendship groups were a mixture of different people from different walks of life, from different backgrounds.

Growing up in an all-girls school, we clicked with whoever meshed with us. We collected vibes. We loved who loved us back, no matter where they were from or how they looked like. Kosa, as your best friends with Rox in the film, British Nigerian, British Somali is your character. How often have you seen that degree of diversity on the screen? To be honest, I've never really seen that depicted on screens. Even when I was growing

up, it was kind of always the lead character was your normal white British girl and then the best friend was always a coloured person. But yeah, like I said, growing up, I never really saw two black young girls from East London being shown in such a true form and honest way on screen. It's not even a thing of where race is important or a thing of, oh, we're just focusing on race, but it's just friendship. It's just true love, true friendship between two girls.

Yeah. Sarah, it's a difficult storyline. How did you manage to make sure it's not miserable? Well, that very much came from the girls who are really filled with joy and cracked us up a lot in the workshop whatever was happening in the world and whatever they were navigating but also so much from Teresa Okoko who really authored the story and she generously brought this narrative uh that she'd been working on independently that she describes like as a love letter to her

sister and black and brown girls growing up and she brought that story to us and she kept on talking about how she'd grown up in Hackney and council estates like the character in the film but how much joy there was in her childhood and her friendship groups and so we wanted that to be in the film and it wasn't difficult because these girls were so filled with it and then it was a case in the edit of keeping that tone and also the little boy of course brings a lot of comedy and so we were sort of navigating in our storytelling and edit and we were all there this shift between humour and darkness and difficulty and highlights. Obviously the difficult part of the film Bucky is Rox deciding to keep her mother's disappearance quiet why do you suppose

she did that to protect her mother um I think loyalty is a big big big thing in the black home especially and Rox quickly took that burden she quickly took that position as her mother's keeper. So she straight away wanted to protect her mum. Like, who wouldn't want to protect their mother? Now, neither of you at Corsair had acted before. How surprised were you to get your part? It was really surprising, to be honest, because I never really knew how film works and stuff.

So when, and by the time we got assigned our roles, we kind of knew Sarah and that for a year. So it was kind of, it felt, it felt great. Like it was just overwhelming. And then when we went on set, it was so interesting to see how a film, how much effort goes into a film and bucky what about you how surprised were you to to get the part of rocks i was very surprised um i feel like

costa will agree with me when saying that a career like this didn't seem tangible but um as we got into the workshop and process more and more, I wanted it more and more. And at one point during the process, I wasn't actually going to continue because I think they were looking, they were going towards a different route in the film. And I remember feeling so disappointed. Then Lucy Pardee texted me the next day and said,

we've changed our minds. We would like for you to come to another audition. And from then on, I was holding on to this opportunity as if it was um as if it was a rope um holding my life and the closer I got to Corsa and to Teresa I called Claire Wilson and Sarah Gavron I wanted to be a part of the process much, even more. So once I got the opportunity, I was just flabbergasted. I was so, so happy. And what about now? Do you both want to continue acting or is it just back to school school back to college and finish your education

first I think Khosla Ali is too talented to not continue and as for me I enjoyed the process so much I mean every day I think about acting so it's definitely something that I see longevity in. And I really want to mark my print in this industry. It's got its bad parts, but it's also got its good parts. And the good parts are so, so beautiful. Well, Kosar, Bucky obviously thinks you have to stay in the business. Is that your intention? Yeah, I think that's what Bucky said. said 100 it's time we saw change in this industry it's time we created new ideas and bookie's not only

an actor by the way she writes and she will be directing some beautiful films one day so i'm yeah very excited to see that sarah you've obviously started something here but what have you learned from the two of them and and the other girls who are in the film I mean I think I learned more than anybody else on this set I was furthest away from them in every respect and they were all so generous and brought their experiences and brought their insights you know from the creative team we had young young women of color on the creative team we had people from all walks of life. And we had a 75% female crew behind the camera, which is unusual, again, from different backgrounds. And these young women who we've continued a relationship with, we've continued to support, but they also continue

to support us. Just before this interview book, he sent me a text saying, remember, you'll be good. You're great. You've got it. It's just that kind of level of support is so wonderful for me. And they've taught me so much about the world. And I just hope that we support our young people going forward because they are a gift to us. I was talking to Sarah Gavron, Kosa Ali and Bucky McRae, and the name of the film is Rocks. Millions of people in the United Kingdom love to knit. And if wool sales are anything to go by, it's becoming a popular pastime among the young as well. But on the sheep farms where the fleeces that supply the wool trade originate, there are signs of serious trouble. As in so many areas of farming, the pandemic is hitting hard.

The price of fleeces has dropped by nearly 50% and some have been saying it's so bad they lose money when they sell. Well, I'm joined by Susan Crawford, who designs knitwear and produces wool at her farm in Lancashire, and Minette Batters, the President of the National Union of Farmers. Minette, how bad are things for sheep farmers? A 50% drop sounds huge. Jenny, things are really bad and sort of unprecedented in many ways. You know, no wool globally was sold for four months during COVID. So there's a backlog, of course, from last year as well. We've seen a reduction of 50% in prices, as you said.

So it's very serious and no sign of things being resolved in the short term. So, you know, there's a campaign on wool going. We're trying to look at measures that the industry can get back on its feet and help itself. And obviously there's an involvement from government and others as well. But it's a very, very serious situation for farmers right now. How much government support have sheep farmers had? Because sheep have to be sheared for health reasons. You're absolutely right. They do.

And, you know, there's a cost to that. It costs anywhere between £1 and £2 to do it. And obviously the price of wool. I spoke to a farmer yesterday and he said, you know, for 400 ewes that have been shorn cost of one pound seven. So that's a check of four hundred and twenty eight pounds to shear them. And his wool price is 80 pounds this year. And farmers haven't been able to access government funding. I think it's sort of been a story of of two halves you know they've obviously been the key workers they haven't been able to furlough you know you can't furlough your workers and you can't or furlough yourself and you can't

furlough your livestock so it's been a challenge and we really have to look at ways to get the wool industry back on its feet in Great Britain. Susan, how aware do you reckon knitters are of what's going on? I think some knitters are very aware. It's actually quite a politically active community in some ways and a reasonable percentage of them really pay attention to these things. However, as with anything of this nature, I think the majority probably are completely oblivious and when they go and buy a skein of yarn,

they have no idea that there are problems of this nature going on behind the scenes. So as a knitting designer who also creates knitting wool, how have you personally been affected? In some ways I have to admit I've been slightly cushioned by things most of our business is done online and one of the benefits of living on a farm throughout the whole epidemic has been that I have just had to carry on working but it's also meant I can carry on working and we have been sending out our wool

all over the world from the farm. However, there have been severe issues with that logistically and supply chain and all of those things. But we've carried on. So how is the trouble affecting the supply and the price of wool that people want to knit with um well to be honest with you the price that people pay to knit with it certainly hasn't gone down it it could very well go up rather than down the cost at this end

is very much in the manufacturer of the yarn um rather than the raw fleece at the other end. If I was to sell my fleece to the wool board, I would get a very minimal amount for it. But by using it in the way that I do to have yarn manufactured, it helps me absorb some of those costs and turn it into a profit. Minette, how worried are you from an environmental perspective that wool for clothing might be, because of this trouble, might be getting replaced by less environmentally friendly substances to make clothes with? Well, that is a massive issue now jenny it's been growing and growing and currently um you know in clothing wool is only factoring in at about one percent and we know in the in the race to deliver on climate change in the race to net zero that

wool is such a fantastic product it's totally sustainable it's biodegradable so we need to get back to wearing much more British wool within our clothing, our carpets, you know, hotels, wool is incredibly hard wearing. So for hotels, restaurants, they like to have a high quality of wool in them, let's try and make sure it's British. And what we're saying to government is for public sector buildings, you know, the legislation is there on net zero, let's lets wherever possible use wool to insulate public sector buildings and can we not roll that out into the commercial world because it is a win-win in the build back better green recovery stakes so there's a lot of things that

can be done but it needs everybody to join everything up to make sure that we do have a vibrant future for wool. Susan for those keen litters who are listening, what advice would you pass on about buying wool in the current climate? Well, I think Minette hit the nail on the head there. You need to be looking for British wool that's also British grown, really. You have to look for those independent suppliers who are supporting the British textile industry by using British produced wool and using the the mills and the

and other facilities that can be found here in the in the UK that are some of the best in the world I mean once upon a time our entire economy was built on the wealth that wool provided. And now it's become a cheap global commodity, which is a terrible shame. And presumably be very careful about the kind of wool that you buy and make sure that it is pure wool. Well, you can have blends. I don't think it's wrong to have things mixed together, but wool is such an incredible commodity. As Minette said, it's biodegradable, it's recyclable, it's sustainable, it's part of the environment from which it comes. And, you know, it's, yeah, it's an incredible product and it is wonderful to knit with.

It's the best. I was talking to Susan Crawford and Minette Batters. We had lots of response to our discussion about the domestic violence storyline in EastEnders and Pauline sent us an email and said, I just wanted to say that I think it's vital that programmes like EastEnders. And Pauline sent us an email and said, I just wanted to say that I think it's vital that programmes like EastEnders highlight these issues as it's a way of reaching out to those who are suffering silently. I was in a relationship with a control freak who was not

violently abusive, but was psychologically abusive, which is done in a sneaky, calculating way, and was invisible and left no tracks. Yet he was the man everyone wanted, and friends thought I was so lucky. It was only when I discovered a book by accident that I recognised the signs and recognised myself as a victim, and began to take steps out of the trap, the prison. Well done to Women's Hour. I love your programme very much and my 12-year-old daughter listens to as many episodes as possible and that's something we like to hear, the younger generation joining us. On nudity, someone who didn't want us to use her name said, in my, parental nudity was used as a cover to protect my father, particularly when I reported sex abuse.

His answer was, of course, she knows what a naked man looks like. We practice nudity in the home. It's not safe for all children. Some are very sensitive to the sight of sex organs. Angie said on Twitter, our kids went naked on the beach until they were about 12. I remember some strange looks. Now, as parents approaching our 60s, we always swim naked in our own pool. And Emily said on Twitter, in my

opinion, we should all be naked much more altogether. I'm not sure why, as a society, we take issue with our naked bodies in all their beautiful glory. My mum was often naked in front of us, I'm often naked and I'm sure it helped me and now my kids feel comfortable with their bodies. Thanks for all your responses to this morning's programme. Do join me tomorrow for Weekend

Woman's Hour when you can hear us discussing the marketing of alcohol to women, leadership and what puts women off and what helps them become leaders, Bridget McCrum and her sculpture, and the Comedy Women in Print Prize. That's all tomorrow, four o'clock in the afternoon. Join me then if you can. Bye-bye. Have you ever wondered what teachers talk about when no one else is listening? Well, you're about to find out. I'm Maureen Bake and my brand new podcast, The Secret Life of Teachers, goes behind the headlines to see what's really going on as

teachers go back to school after the lockdown. I was a teacher for almost a decade, but I never witnessed a time like this. So I've created my own virtual secret staff room where each week some teacher friends and I will discuss everything from remote learning and mental health to offset inspections and teachers behaving badly. If you'd also like to overhear their uncensored staff room confessions, then subscribe to my podcast, The Secret Life of Teachers, on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.