Woman's Hour - Domestic violence, Women & the gig economy, Boxing, UN leadership

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Deaths by suicide among victims of domestic abuse in England and Wales have overtaken the number of people killed by an intimate partner, for a second year in a row. The figures are revealed in the annual national police report on domestic homicides published today, although police chiefs say the increase is due to improvements in recording, rather than a rise in the number of such cases. They've also said more perpetrators will be charged with manslaughter following their victims' deaths in future. Clare McDonnell talks to Phyllis Daly, whose daughter Jessica Laverack was 34 when she took her own life in 2018, and Hetti Barkworth-Nanton, Chair of the domestic violence charity Refuge. Amber Anning made history when just a few days ago she fought off a mid-race shove from her chief rival to become Great Britain's first ever women's 400m champion at the World Athletics Indoor Championships. She joins us to talk about her experience in Nanjing in China, and such a promising start to her professional career. We look at how the gig economy is impacting migrant women working in the UK, especially those in Ecommerce and social care. Clare's joined by director Laura Carriera, whose award-winning film On Falling explores the loneliness of a young Portuguese woman working as a picker in an online retailer's warehouse. We also hear from Dr Dora Olivia Vicol, Chief Executive of the Work Rights Centre, a charity supporting migrant workers, and ‘Rose’ - who came to the UK to work in the care sector - shares her experience of being exploited and threatened by her employers. The race for the next UN Secretary-General - who will be appointed for five years in 2026 - has begun. Campaigners are fighting for a more transparent, fair and inclusive process to elect the world’s top civil servant, and are demanding that the appointee finally be a woman. We hear from two of the people who are part of the push to make this happen - Maria Noel Leoni, Director of the GQUAL Campaign and Susana Malcorra, co-founder and President of Global Women Leaders Voices - about how the process works and why a woman has not been elected in the UN's 80-year history. Earlier we heard how victims and survivors of domestic abuse want the police to better protect them from perpetrators, but there's also a very practical and positive way some women have been trying to process their trauma to build a future for themselves. British boxer Lesley Sackey - who previously won gold at the EU Championships - is a survivor of an abusive relationship and now helps other women to gain confidence and move forward by getting into the boxing ring. She joins us along with Olivia Culverhouse, who took part in Lesley’s 10-week Fight Forward course last year. Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Claire MacDonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Great to have your company for the next hour. Amber Anning made history when just a few days ago she fought off a mid-race shove from her chief rival to become Great Britain's first ever women's 400 meter champion at the World Indoor Athletics Championships. Amber will join us live this morning. We'll also talk to the director of the award-winning film

On Falling. It's about a young Portuguese woman working at a warehouse here in the UK as part of the gig economy. It explores the themes of social isolation, of the struggle to make ends meet. And we'll also in that discussion hear from Rose, who's a migrant worker in the UK now, and ask if new government rules on employment protection will help prevent exploitation within the sector. It's an 80-year-old institution that has never had a woman as

its leader, but could that be about to change at the UN? We'll hear from two women who are raising their voices to push for that change. And tell me today, if you are a female leader, what was the one defining thing that made the difference to your career path? Was it someone that believed in you when you didn't believe in yourself? Maybe you had to invest in yourself. How did you do that? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website of course. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03 700

100 444. And Les Leslie Sackey will join us. She's a former medal-winning boxer who won gold at the EU Championships. She's also a survivor of domestic abuse who is now using her sport to help other women who've experienced domestic violence to build a more positive future for themselves. And we start the programme on that very theme,

the theme of domestic violence, because an annual national police report on domestic homicides published today has revealed that deaths by suicide amongst victims of domestic abuse in England and Wales has overtaken the number of people killed by an intimate partner for a second year in a row. Now the issue was highlighted most recently in the case of Ryan Wellings who was cleared of the

manslaughter of Kiana Dawes but convicted of domestic abuse. Police chiefs say the increase is suspected victim suicides following domestic abuse and they say it's due to improvements in recording rather than a rise in the number of such cases and Assistant Commissioner Louisa Rolfe who is National Policing Lead for domestic abuse said more perpetrators will be charged with manslaughter following their victims deaths. I'm going to be talking in a few moments time to Hetty Barkworth-Nanton who's chair of the domestic violence charity Refuge. But just before we came on air, I spoke to Phyllis Daly, mother of Jessica Lavaarack,

who was 34 when she took her own life in February 2018. I asked Phyllis, what happened to her daughter? Jessica was in a violent, abusive relationship for two to three years. And when I say violent, exceptionally violent, coercive, control, torture, there was no end to the abuse that she suffered, to the point that he struggled to learn consciousness, and then she had to flee. Then he attracted downstarts and harassed her,

and the violence just continued, to the point she couldn't see no way out and she took her life. And you fought incredibly hard for an inquest and the coroner recognised that domestic abuse did in fact result in Jessica's death and that is the first time this has happened in England and Wales. I mean, a Herculean effort, tell us about the process. It's a battle, it was a fight and at time of grief. It shouldn't be a battle and fight. But nobody could understand or see what I was saying. They didn't seem to see that link

that I saw between domestic abuse and suicide because of the abuse not being there. She wouldn't want to take her life. Life would move on. life would carry on for a 34 year old woman. But I think it was a fear of litigation that they avoided the situation. I don't know, but they didn't understand what I was saying. Travel all over the country to get legal support because nobody got what I was saying, there wasn't one to take it on. It was a massive expense and a cost to ourselves because we couldn't get legal aid. So the points of losing our own home if we had lost. But three weeks before the actual inquest, we did get an Article 2 which is in the public interest and that obviously saved us losing our home. Clearly being in a relationship like this, your daughter spiralled, she was drinking a lot

and people were up to that point pointing at that being the reason for the suicide? Well this is where they can't see that link. Most people in domestic abuse relationships, a good majority, have some form of addiction whether it's drugs, alcohol, because that is their coping mechanism. That is what they do to get to that terror, that fear, or so they see it helping through the anxiety of it all, although we know it doesn't, but in that situation they think it does. So what they do to see is the domestic abuse causes that. So usually they will only treat them for the addiction and then look at the domestic

abuse afterwards. But what they need to do is sort the domestic abuse and then the addiction can be addressed easier. Jessica did have this multi-agency risk assessment conference in both Rotherham and Beverly. So she was on the radar of the local authorities. Why wasn't the seriousness of what was going on there picked up on, do you think? You see, you know, you say that, that MARAC, the multi-agency working, doesn't work. It's not fit for purpose. It needs reviewing. We've just used it for so many years, but nobody's challenged us, it worked. If I say so, let's get her off our hands, let's make her flee so we don't have to have this work here.

But they did pass it over to the appropriate agencies in the new area. The doctor had no idea she was in Marat. She technically was high risk when she left the first area, but when she went to the second area, because she'd allegedly fled 50 miles, she's safe now. But actually all research shows the more higher risk then, but they said it, she's safe now. But actually all research shows the more higher risk then, but they said it,

she'd moved to a new area, she was not at risk no more. She'd not registered with the GP, she was, but their computer systems do all work together. They all have different systems that they can't share information. They have 10 minutes like a GP surgery, 10 minutes to discuss such a complex case of somebody just moving from their own home, having to rent a place, they don't know

where they are, the isolation. We've set them up to fail. You can't discuss a complex case in 10 minutes. We have a statement that says following Jessica's death, this is from the local authority, we've made strategic and operational improvements, learning from Jessica's case to do better and support all of those affected by domestic abuse. And this report that's come out today on domestic homicide, the Assistant Commissioner involved in this, Louisa Rolfe, has said this, I've met some incredibly impressive families who felt they themselves have needed to investigate after their loved one's death and that is wrong because that is our job, we must do that. She's effectively talking about what

you had to go through, Phyllis. How important is it to you to have your struggle recognised in this way? It's so difficult because it's still seven years on a battle. We haven't got the learning of the DHR Domestic Homicide Review learning hasn't come out yet, so that's seven years in and that's not out to get the learning from it. The learning is slowly being made but I think sometimes you have to challenge them greater. Like last year I took the police to, you know, to course of the failings but why did I have to take them greater. Like last year I took the police to course over failings, but why did I have to take to court? Why couldn't I just put my hands up and say we

failed you? I did win, but I shouldn't have had that battle on my hands to prove my point. The silo work, the work individually, they have like institutionalised blinkers on. It's not my agency, not my problem, But the need to work together with domestic abuse as that central factor. What you've done is quite incredible. You've highlighted this. You've already spelled out the risks to yourself, to your family, almost losing your home. What kind of a toll has all of this taken on you? Two ways. It's helped me through my grief because I think if I hadn't have been

battling and fighting, I would have gone under. So in that sense, on a positive note, it's helped me through my griefing process. But to make change, I feel I have to put my head above the parapets. And I think a consequence sometimes my other children and grandchildren and my husband have have you know had to share the time with me because I'm so usually busy fighting my cause or making change. I can't bring my Jesse back but hopefully I can save some more Jesses out there give them a better future to look forward to, a better future for my grandchildren, great grandchildren. That is Phyllis Daly, mother of Jessica Lavarack, speaking to me just before we

came on air, listening to that Hetty Barkworth Nanton, chair of Domestic Violence Charity Refuge. Welcome to the Woman's Hour. Thank you. It's quite something isn't it to listen to Phyllis and how much this has taken over her life in the seven years she has lived it. What's your response to what you just heard there? I mean it's absolutely devastating to listen to the experience of Jessica which ultimately resulted in her feeling clearly that she had no other choice but to take her own life and often that is the only it's the only last piece of control that victims have because all control in their life has been ripped

away from them. But honestly, Phyllis is clearly incredible and brave and undoubtedly be making a massive difference to others and definitely, definitely, as she said, helping more Jessicas out there. This annual police report on domestic homicides that dreadful statistic that it is the second year in a row that deaths by suicide amongst victims of domestic abuse in England and Wales have overtaken the number of people who've actually been killed as a result of domestic violence. The police would say well we're recording it, What is your view on that? So we're not remotely surprised.

The levels of suicide, there's levels of ideas of suicide that are reported by survivors that come to us is very, very high. Because often people talk about domestic violence. Actually, we talk all the time now about domestic abuse because so much of the very dangerous types of domestic abuse is coercive and controlling behaviour, which is designed to get the victim to the point whereby they feel totally and utterly worthless. and we always expected that we would start to see this once it got reported, the reporting of women losing their lives as a result of taking their life as a result of coercive and controlling behaviour.

We have heard the National Police Chiefs' Council lead for domestic abuse, Louisa Rolfe, say that she expects the number of manslaughter convictions to rise as a result of this new unexpected deaths policy. What can help turn that around, do you think? So I'm afraid I'm slightly skeptical in terms of the number of convictions rising. We only have to look at, you know, the case that you mentioned right at the top of the hour around Ryan Wellings who was prosecuted for the manslaughter of Kiana Dawes and she'd even written a letter that she'd left saying that he had murdered her but even with that evidence a jury was unable to find him guilty of manslaughter.

So you know and even when the victim's still alive the conviction rates for domestic abuse are eye-wateringly low, less than 5%. So we are a long, long way from what she says, which is increasing the number of convictions from this kind of death. We heard Phyllis there when she was talking about her daughter and everything she's looked into, was talking about agencies didn't share information and she says they are still not doing that. This report also reveals that 68% of victims or perpetrators of domestic

abuse were known to the police or another agency. Why isn't that sharing of basic information, which is so crucial to the safety to the lives of women. Why isn't it being shared? So I think she's right. I think we do need a systematic look at Maroc and how it's working. It's interesting, isn't it, that the ambition by the current government to have violence against women and girls is being led by the Home Office, which is fantastic, but actually, you know, where is health in the conversation? I think she gave a really good example of Jessica going to the doctor, you know, the doctor not knowing what was going on with regards to Marek, and actually, maybe if he had, he could have dealt with the things that she was struggling with in a very

different way. So we have to have a joined up approach. The government needs to take a system-wide approach to reform and I'm just not currently convinced that that is what's happening. Do you think then, I mean we know about the link between domestic abuse and suicides and these figures kind of prove it and unexpected deaths and it does seem like an obvious connection the dots just aren't being joined. We heard Feliceé, her daughter, was drinking heavily, and yet that connection wasn't. Why is she drinking heavily? You know, what is going on in her life?

If those questions aren't being asked initially, I guess it makes it even harder to prove that link between what's happening to that person and the fact that they eventually take their own life. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's asking the right questions. I think the other problem that we've got is, we did some research very recently as part of our Red Flags campaign, which is explicitly looking at coercive

and control behaviour. And of the people that we surveyed, adults, 80% said they would report an instance of violence in terms of domestic violence, but less than 40% said that they would report an instance of violence in terms of domestic violence but less than 40% said that they would report incidents of coercive and controlling behaviour and that's the problem. A. you know society doesn't recognise those things and B. when they do recognise those things they don't feel like it's worth reporting it to the police because as an individual incident it doesn't feel big, it's the culmination of behaviour sets that is what creates the real danger.

Thank you so much for coming on such an important message and going through those details for us. You heard the voice there of Hetty Barkworth, Nanton, Chair of the Domestic Violence Charity Refuge and we have to say if you have been affected or are being affected by anything you've heard there, there is a range of organisations and websites that can offer you advice and support. You can find them listed on the BBC's Action Line website bbc.co.uk forward slash action line our text number here as well 84844 many of you getting in touch already on this. I have a child with my abuser and the post-separation abuse has been intense. 21 court hearings in four

years. Domestic abuse through post-separation abuse is the hardest fight and challenge of my life. Thank you so much for getting in touch. And this, I'm going through this, all of this right now, we need to talk about this more because everything Phyllis is saying is completely true. What the services do and what they ought to do are very different. Please talk about this more. It broke my heart listening to Phyllis's experience. She's been stronger than most people could ever need to be through all of this. Thank you so much for those texts, keep them coming in. Now let's move on and talk to my next guest who is Amber Anning celebrating after becoming

Great Britain's first women's 400 metre champion at the World Athletics Indoor Championship at the weekend. Amber clocked 50.60 seconds in a dramatic race to the line against the American Alexis Holmes at the Nanjing Cube in China. Amber, welcome to Women's Hour. Hello, thank you so much for having me. So many congratulations. Great to see you've got the medal around your neck.

Have you had that off much in the last couple of days? Honestly, it was on in the box in the 13 hour flight I had back from China yesterday so I haven't actually worn it that much but I'm definitely going to have it on these next couple of days and just enjoy the celebrations. Absolutely should and I would urge anyone who hasn't seen the race to go and take a look because it was dramatic. Tell us about your challenge with Alexis Holmes. Yes, so I'm in the 400 metres, the race is split up into two laps, so we have to take

the break on the first 200. So usually most of the times I do take that break and there's no collision, it's kind of like everyone just follows in line. But with this race, both me and the American Alexis Holmes were both there. So it was a little bit of a tussle, I kind of lost a bit of stepping and was pushed on the outside and had to kind of get back into race after losing my momentum. So it was pretty hard, but I think I just stayed strong, stayed mentally strong as well and just kind of waited for the right time to push at the end to take the gold. And when they say run through the line, that is exactly what you did. It got a bit messy over the line. Tell us what happened. No, I did. My mum was always saying you need to dip. Like you never know how close a race can be.

So make sure you throw your body all across the line. So, um, no, I had, I think I've looked at the race so many times and if I'd done it one second later, I would have lost. So it was like perfect timing that I dipped, but no, it was just so, so close, but I knew I had to just give it my all because it's the last race of indoors and I wanted that gold. And I think I would have left disappointed if I hadn't after what happened in the race. And what happened to Alexis because she fell over the line, did you get tangled up or did she just lose her footing? I think it was just losing the footing, I think it was just the nerves probably being so close, hearing me maybe coming through, I don't know, it could be multiple things.

I didn't actually realize she fell until after the race and then I watched the video But I also kind of saw on the floor too, but I didn't realize it had happened like that So I'm glad she let me she looked okay. So hopefully no injury or anything there I know it was a wild race for sure nothing that I expected in my head I'm before the start probably not great to be in it, but to watch it. It was really thrilling I mean you were just two weeks earlier at the European indoors and you got a disqualification for a lane infringement. How hard was it to kind of get back focused to do what you did? Yeah, it was pretty tough because I wasn't really

planning on going to worlds. Honestly, I think Europeans, it felt like it was a closer home champ, more British support. My mom and my sister were both there, a lot of fans. So yeah, I just want to finish on a bang. So to get that lane infringement and I also just felt really good. I was the first he and I ran a pretty easy time and easy race. So I was quite upset. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to run in a relay where we got the silver medal but you always want it more individually too. So I think I just had a week to reset everything, not much so physically but mentally kind of giving myself grace but also allowing me to kind of get ready in preparation for Worlds and also just to give me the opportunity to have one more shot at getting on the

podium and to also just do this for myself because we weren't taking a relay out to China. You mentioned your mum there, how key has she been in your athletics journey? Very key, I mean I just want to say she's a massive fan of Women's Hour so it's just such an honour again to speak on here this morning. Both my parents have just been great in my journey, I think. She was the one who pushed me to go to America, to not only get my degree there, but to compete at a high level in a big environment and to just be competitive. And, you know, she's been a massive rock, her and the whole family, ever since.

But I'm just so proud that she's been able to support me. I think this medal isn't just about me, but it's for her, it's for my dad, my two sisters, massive rock her and the whole family ever since. But I'm just so proud that she's been able to support me. I think this medal isn't just about me, but it's for her, it's for my dad, my two sisters, my coach, and everyone who's just been critical to my journey leading up to this point. Well, it's a family effort, isn't it, when somebody succeeds in the way that you have?

Because we speak to parents a lot, and the sacrifices they make along the way absolutely have to be recognised as well. You had a fantastic Paris Olympics. What's next for you? What's the next big meet that you're working towards? I'm World Championship outdoors in Tokyo in September. So it seems far, but you know, we're track everything comes up so quickly. So I'm definitely getting some rest, much needed rest for the next couple of weeks.

And then we go again, go back into training. I'll fly back to America probably maybe next week. And we kind of start to look at the outdoor pro circuit, do a few competitions in Europe, overseas, and then get ready for trials a little bit at the end of the year. Well, it's been a joy having you on. Thank you so much. Many congratulations. And say hello to your mum from everyone at Women's Hour. Of course. Thank you so much, many congratulations and say hello to your mum from everyone at Women's Hour.

Of course, thank you so much for having me again. Thank you Amber's mum for keeping the faith. That is the voice of Amber Anning who has become Great Britain's first women's 400m champion at the World Athletics Indoor Championship at the weekend. Many, many congratulations to her. Keep your text coming in 84844 on any subject you hear on the program this morning. You may well want to contribute to our next discussion. We're going to start talking about the gig economy now.

What is the reality of life for migrant women working in the UK on short-term contracts often in e-commerce or in caring roles? And could new government rules on employment protection help prevent exploitation within the sector? In a moment, we're going to hear from Rose, who came to the UK to work in the care sector. Joining me in the studio is Dr. Dora Vickal, CEO of the Works Rights Centre. That's a charity that helps migrant workers. Welcome to Bournemouth. Great to be with you. And first though, I'm joined by the film director Laura Carrera, whose award-winning film On

Falling follows a young Portuguese woman who works as a picker. Now, a picker is a person who selects products off the shelves in a large warehouse and delivers them to most of our doors. You know what I'm talking about. This particular picker is set in Scotland and Laura joins us now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi, hello. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much for coming on. It's an incredible film. It really, really is. It's so resonant. Why did you want to make this movie? So already in my shorts, I had started to read a lot about the gig economy. My last short was also about someone who very last minute loses their shift and the consequences of that. And at that point, I started reading about the logistics industry and I discovered the job of a picker.

And I think I was just really surprised the way this job existed and, you know, how the work happened. You know, someone who's by themselves with 10-hour shifts following a scanner that is telling them by the second how long they have to get to the next item. And as soon as I started trying to find pickers and speaking to them about their job, I realized many are migrant workers. And so I think it made sense to write Aurora as a Portuguese migrant because I knew I could bring my own experiences to the film as well of those first years in Scotland. Yes, and we'll get onto that in a second,

but just to talk about Aurora, the central character of Second played incredibly by the actress, Joanna Santos. I mean, you'd set it out so wonderfully. Here she is in a warehouse warehouse surrounded by loads of people, busy busy busy and yet she's incredibly lonely. So what was the point you were trying to draw out from the character in that setting? I mean I think it was very much observing the way the work exists and kind of questioning how that affects you know not just obviously the person

physically because that was something I heard over and over, how physically exhausting the job was, but also psychologically, you know? Like how hard it is to be alone that amount of time and how tired you are at the end of the day that you can't really have the energy to find meaningful connections outside of work. So yeah, I think it's very much to do with

how we relate to work and how this like level of insecurity and instability can affect your social ties as well, you know, can affect all aspects of your life in and outside work. Yeah, and also you use the use of the mobile phone as a way of it's the irony that it's something that connects us but also isolates us. You have these great canteen scenes where everyone's taking a break. No one's really talking, they're on their phones. It's a strange juxtaposition, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it comes from looking at people around me, you know,

and myself included, and we're all on our phones. And I don't know if, you know, it is the phone that is causing the isolation. I kind of tend to look at the phone more as a symptom, you know, it's kind of a longing for something that we're after and I think the phone represents that, especially for the character obviously, because it's almost like a window into all these other worlds and you know, our best friend really. Yeah and she lives in a HMO, a house of multiple occupancy with other people who are working in different sectors of the gig economy and

there's a friendliness there, there's a support network, but there's still a lot of social isolation and you draw out the fact that if one thing goes wrong, she smashes the screen of a mobile phone, then that can be a tipping point for many, many people. Talk us through what happens to your character. I mean, yeah, it is kind of the beginning of the snowball effect, isn't it? She breaks her phone, she struggles to fix the phone and then from then on, it sort of affects all aspects of her life. And I think the dynamics in the flat were also something I really wanted to have a look at, because when so many people are living with this level of instability, are living paycheck to

paycheck, it kind of affects how we relate to each other. It affects how much time we have to care for one another. And it also affects, for example, the dynamics in the flat, where they talk about food that is disappearing in the cupboards. There's the difficulty of paying for the electricity bill. I mean, there's all these aspects that just kind of create conflict. And it really comes from a level of insecurity that everyone is experiencing. And you see Aurora just filling up on white bread and water and putting lots of free sugar from the canteen in drinks so she kind of she's satiated so she can carry on working. Just briefly before we move on, you

yourself, migrant to this country, you were in Scotland and you had experience of this kind of work didn't you? Not Picker specifically. So I worked in hospitality, those were my very first jobs and I also worked as a care worker for many years. Yeah, so I did have zero hour contracts, a lot of instability on how many hours I could get and then of course also kind of a lot of invisible work. When there's the entire discourse anti-migration in the UK, you know, I looked at those first years and I was like, well, I was working a lot, a lot of the times the work wasn't visible. I think that's also what's happening with, you know, with Aurora.

Yeah. Well, honestly, you tell an incredible story. Just hang on there a second. We're going to bring in the Charity Works Rights Centre. New figures from the Migrant Help Charity Work Rights Centre show that 32% of care workers in England are migrant workers, most of them women. The charity CEO I've just introduced, Dr Dora Olivia Vickol, is with me in the studio. So migrant care workers, let's talk about that, they must have a visa to work, mustn't they? So how hard is that and how hard is it to hang on to?

It's great to be with you. That's right, they need a visa and it's a very restrictive visa. So imagine that if you're a migrant worker to the UK, you can only work for the employer who sponsors your visa. And that puts that employer in a position of incredible power. If for whatever reason your employment stops or if you're not given any work to begin with because you are scammed, you have just 60 days to find another visa sponsor, make and pay for another visa application or you become an overstayer. So that's an extremely dangerous position for migrant care workers. There are changes afoot aren aren't there, to this. What are they?

The changes are really minimal. So there's been a lot of evidence that documented the exploitation of migrant care workers, particularly women. But we think the government's focus has been very narrow and has been on regulating employers. We need something that actually gives people the freedom to work, the freedom to leave abusive employers and really take their skills and their labor to the businesses that really need and value them. We're gonna bring Rose now. Rose is, has been a care worker in this country. Morning to you, Rose. Morning. Great to have you on the program. Tell us your

story then. What happened to you when you applied to become a social care worker in the UK? What happened from the moment you got on the plane? Oh, okay. From the moment I got on the plane, I was filled with so much expectations, you know. And upon arrival, I discovered that everything I planned, everything I expected to see was nothing close to what I met on ground. First of all, I was placed in a three-bedroom apartment with eight other adults, total strangers, which was very, very overwhelming. At that moment, I felt like going back home.

But I couldn't because I had already sold off all my properties and to make the move possible. Then the second shock came when I realized that the company I came to work with, they didn't have enough working hours. We spent about three weeks without any job and at the end of my first month I was paid hundred pound as a salary for the first month. Very very difficult, discouraging, heartbreaking. I was traumatized but going back home at that point in time was not an option because there's nothing to go back to. What happened? What did you do? Well I

continued working and now the working condition was not even good as well. Eventually the hours came but not good enough. We worked long hours. You could start your first shift at 7am and you might have to travel like one hour 30 minutes to get to the individual house because it was like a domiciliary where you have to go visit them in their homes. So these houses, sometimes you could travel like one hour 30 minutes to get there to do a 30 minutes job. Then you travel one hour or so to get to the next person and that's how the job continues. And sometimes you might end your last shift at 9pm. So by the time you're going back, you're getting back home at night is like 10, 10, 10, 11, at the next morning you have to be out again at six. It was so bad. And again, we were not given transportation. Usually

they're supposed to provide us with transportation or with cars, but nothing of such was given provided. Excuse me. No, that I mean, that sounds absolutely exhausting. Yes, it was. How did you extricate yourself from that? Because we were talking about the visas and the sponsors and You always have to have someone who sponsors you otherwise you've got the 60 days and that's it. How did you turn it around Rose?

Okay First I started looking for opportunities elsewhere and I got a couple of interviews But getting the sponsorship was difficult. so at some point I decided to take it a step further. I went to do my level 3 in health and social care and that gave me an added advantage so it made my applications even more viable and I was invited for an interview and sometime last year it was successful and the new company sponsored me and I'm in a better place right now but that's not excluding the fact that a lot of other people are still going through the same thing I went through. Absolutely. Let's just bring Dora back in for a final word.

We're talking about the gig economy, short-term contracts. You have touched on this, but what would you like to see, the change that you would like to see to better protect these migrant workers that we know our social care sector so desperately needs? That's right. There are three changes that we'd like to see to better protect these migrant workers that we know our social care sector so desperately needs? That's right. There are three changes that we'd like to see. First of all, we think that migrant workers should have longer than just 60 days to find another sponsor. Many other countries give workers six months, for instance Australia, we could replicate that. There's a very good precedent. We could also give them the right to work during those six months. Similarly, most other countries have a separate visa system for migrants who were exploited. They recognize the injustice of being exploited by a company that has been licensed by the Home Office. So that visa would give

them a secure immigration status. It wouldn't doubly penalize them and would allow them to work. And similarly, we would like to see the government take firmer action on employers who clearly exploited the system, lied to the Home Office and exploited workers as well. Currently, all the employers the Home Office is taking action against are still trading. There's been no fines, no criminal charges. They're working business as usual. We think that needs to change. Thank you so much. Laura, let's just give the final word to you. An incredible film making many of these points. What do you hope it achieves in this debate?

I think a lot of the themes that the film looks at, like poverty and loneliness and alienation, I think a lot of the times the individual is being blamed for these feelings, you know, and I have a feeling, you know, they are shared, everyone is experiencing them. So I think we need to look at it collectively, you know, and we need to start finding solutions that are collective and not just, you know, look within and try to find the solutions because I don't think that's what we're gonna find them. It's been fascinating having you all on. Thank you so much for dropping by the Woman's Hour studio. You heard the voices there of Laura Carrera.

Laura's film On Falling is still showing in selected cinemas across the UK. I heartily recommend that. We had Rose as well. Thank you Rose and Dr. Dora, Olivia Vikol as well. Thank you so much for joining us and we have this statement from the government. Allegations of visa abuse are taken incredibly seriously and will always be investigated thoroughly. We are introducing robust new action against those who abuse the visa system, ensuring employers prioritise international workers already in the UK and banning businesses who flout employment laws

from sponsoring overseas workers. We are determined to crack down on malpractice and abuse and where employers are identified as abusing their sponsor licence, we will always take action as swiftly as possible. Now let's move on to talk about an 80-year-old institution that has never, ever had a woman as its leader. But could that be about to change at the UN? The race to appoint the next UN Secretary-General, currently occupied by Antonio Guterres, of course, has begun in earnest. And now several groups are campaigning not only for the appointee to be a woman, finally, but also for a more transparent, fair and inclusive process to elect the world's top civil servant. Let's hear from two of

them now. Susanna Malkora is co-founder and president of Global Women Leaders Voices. They're a non-governmental organization founded by former UN senior staff and also leadership candidates to advocate for gender equality in the international system. She's also a former chief of staff of the UN secretary general. And we're also joined by Maria Noel, the only Director of the GQAL campaign. Welcome both of you. Thank you. Great to have you here. Susanna, let's start with you. For new readers start here, what does the UN Secretary General actually do? Big important role. What does that position mean

you do? It is a significant role. It's the person who brings together all the institutions of the UN system. It's a very large system. It's the one that works with member states, with governments, to bring upon options of solutions to the many issues that we have before us. It's the person who runs the place and makes sure that new policies are is the person who runs the place and makes sure that new policies are adopted by the member states in order to address the questions that the world has before itself. So it's a significant role, the one of the Secretary General.

Maria, why do you think we haven't had a woman as UN Secretary General up to this point? I think, well, it's probably definitely not because there are not enough, you know, qualified women or because there are not enough compelling reasons for it. I think there hasn't been a woman Secretary General because the system wasn't designed for one and that really needs to change. Many international leadership spaces, you know, the selection process is shaped by political interests and backroom negotiations and power structures that have been mostly shaped by men and have long favor made candidate and this particular position requires complex geopolitical agreements and men

tend to represent more easily what the compromise looks like. And you know, the fact that the process lacks transparency, that's not held because we know that when this happens, women are the first to be excluded. And there's also a deeply ingrained, you know, resistance to change arguments, like, you know, there hasn't been the right women or there are not enough qualified women is definitely a miss. There have been highly qualified women candidates in past elections take Susana Malcorra here but none have been elected and there's gender bias, there is the way we perceive leadership, there's

political interest and entrenched power structure that have kept this job out of reach for women. That's quite a list you've got to go up against, isn't it, with this change that you're trying to make. Susana, as Maria just said, you were a candidate last time round, last time this protest took place, one of seven women who were candidates, 13 candidates in total. Now, an outsider would say, well, that's great, there were seven women. But why is it that women, in your experience, don't make it across the line to the top job? Well, Maria Noel has given some hints on why.

It is clear that out of the seven women who ran last time, and it was a record, it had never happened before, you could find qualifications that were absolutely equivalent to the ones that the six men had. So it was not because there were not talented women there. The pool had them. But there's always some reason why a woman doesn't make the final line. Maybe she's too bossy. Maybe she's too soft.

Maybe she's one that is not easy to get along with. Is she trustworthy enough? There is this clear, clear notion of a very masculine environment in which fitting as a woman seems odd. And I think precisely the call is that the world needs change, needs different styles of leadership, and that's exactly what women bring, you know, different approaches to issues, to problems. And it has to be recognized and it has to be accepted. It wasn't last time around. You might remember in 2016 there was this one for seven billion campaign that went very strongly Behind the notion of having a woman when he got to the final end of the process at the end of the process with the Security council it faded away. It just didn't happen

Maria Noel for all the you know, the problems that you outlined there that is historical structural societal problems that you outlined there, that is historical, structural, societal. That's a huge thing to shift the dial on. So with both of your campaigns, how are you going about trying to do that? Yeah, so our campaign relies on three key strategies that are relevant to the Secretary General election. The first one for us is civil society mobilization because meaningful changes require pressure from multiple actors at different levels and civil society plays a crucial role in shaping discussions and influencing political will. So you know one of the things that we want is to ensure that civil society has a voice in this process and

to expand the debate beyond diplomatic circles to regional and national audiences who in turn can influence their governments. We want to help emphasize that this election isn't just about the UN. It's about global health. It's about migration. It's about security. It's about climate change. And we have to make a better case in connecting the election with the issues that people care about. And a second thing for us is demanding transparency. We are calling for a more open, transparent selection process that allows greater participation from different actors

in clearly-defined selection criteria, and also a discussion on the qualifications and the skills and the leadership traits required for the role, including why it needs to be a woman. And the third one for us is grounding, you know, the demand in international law and the UN framework itself, because we want to emphasize that representation is just that it's not just important or effective, it's also an international legal obligation, because women have a right to equal representation in decision making, including in this position.

Let's bring in Susanna again. When you look at all of the major multilateral organisations across the world, just 54 of them have been led by a woman and 27% of UN ambassadors are women. However, just last week we saw Kirsty Conventry become the first woman to lead the International Olympic Committee, considered by many to be the most powerful role in sports. Susanna, does that give you hope for change? The numbers are low, but it's moving in the right direction maybe? the numbers are low but it's moving in the right direction maybe. Well definitely when you that's what one of the things we do as GWL voices we track how leadership evolves and what we have seen is that there is a very interesting positive movement in leadership in these institutions particularly when the head is committed and Secretary General

Antonio Guterres has been committed to adding women. It's much lower when member states make the election. Their numbers are much lower. So clearly it gives me hope to see the International Olympic Committee having a woman at the helm. It will give me deep hope to have a woman as secretary general.

I think this is a moment of change. We see the issues before us in the world. That demands change. And what more change could you have than having for the first time in 80 years, a woman at the helm? Not because she's a woman, it's because she brings a different approach

to solution seekingseeking. And that's exactly what is needed today. We need stronger stewardship of resources, we need a different way to manage risk, we need to be better listeners, we need to be bridge-builders. All those skills are essential in women, and I think that's what we aim to put forward. What difference do you think Maria Noel it would make if we had more women in charge of such key institutions of government, the UN and the like? I mean you know Susanna gave a wonderful list there of skills that women have and it could be argued the kind of crossroads the world is on at the moment we need those kind of

listening and diplomatic skills More than ever. What what difference do you think it would make Maria Noel? Yes, I fully agree with what Susanna was saying I think having more women in leadership position is crucial not only for you know better decision-making but also for the legitimacy and credibility of institutions. And the UN definitely needs that. Diverse leadership leads to more effective, inclusive, and innovative solutions.

And this is important for key issues that the UN addresses, like from human rights to peace to development and climate change. And then beyond the policy outcome, this does increase and strengthens the institution. And then I think it's also a matter that representation matters because leadership shapes the world we live in.

And when women are absent from key decision-making spaces, our perspectives and needs and priorities are often overlooked. And seeing women in leadership positions sends a powerful message that these spaces are open to all and that's important for future generations as well. So I think all of those are very strong reasons for a woman Secretary General. We will watch this space with interest.

Thank you both so much for coming on the programme today. You heard the voice there of Maria Noel Leone, who's director of the GQAL campaign, just one of the organisations supporting the push for a woman to take up the role as UN Secretary General next time round, and also Susanna Malcorra, co-founder and president of Global Women Leaders Voices, a non-governmental organisation. Thank you to everybody who's got in touch with the programme this morning. Thank you for all your texts. Talking of women's leaders, I was asking you earlier about if you are a leader, what helped you get to that point? This text, after I

got fired, well I whistle-blown and then I got fired. At the time I was devastated but it spurred me on to go self-employed. Nine years later I run two companies in a world that is still very male-dominated and I have never looked back. Good for you. Thanks for getting in touch. I'm a woman leader, a head teacher who started a school from scratch 10 years ago. When I first started talking about it people generally thought I was mad sheer stubbornness kept me going and the belief of the first set of parents started us off there were only two children to start with so it was tough but here we are ten years later hoping to start school number two my musician friends are the ones I have to thank

from thinking I was mad all the way to wholehearted belief I couldn't be more thankful thank you for getting in touch and this text this is Alice who says as I have to thank from thinking I was mad all the way to wholehearted belief. I couldn't be more thankful Thank you for getting in touch and this text So this is Alice who says as a female leader in the charity sector The thing that made the biggest difference to my development confidence and performance was firstly a compassionate effective line manager And secondly an external coach coaching has been transformative in my career and I am now working as a coach and consultant in the third sector helping other female leaders. That is Alice Jerry. Thanks for getting in touch Alice. Still time to do that if you

want to you can text me here at woman's hour 84844. Now earlier in the programme we heard about the findings of the annual National Police report on domestic homicides that revealed that suicide was the most common cause of death amongst victims in England and Wales in the year to the end of March 2024, and we heard the ways victims and survivors want the police to better protect them from perpetrators. We want to talk now about a very practical way some women are processing their trauma and so building a more positive future for themselves. Lesley Saki is a former medal-winning boxer who won gold at the

EU Championships and is a survivor herself of an abusive relationship. She now helps other women to gain confidence and move forward with their lives by getting into the boxing ring. Les Leslie, welcome. Thank you. So great to have you here and she joins me in the studio alongside Olivia Culverhouse, who took part in Leslie's course last year. Hi, Olivia. Hello. Very good to have you both here. Thank you.

Let's start with you, Leslie. Tell us the inspiration for this course. It's a 10-week course, isn't it? It's a 10-week program. It's actually an organization. So Fight Forward is an organization I set up in response to leaving my own, or in response to my own journey out of leaving in an abusive relationship. I wanted to connect with what felt powerful and strong, but there was also something around telling a story and showing others what's possible.

So I understood that through the process of boxing, it provided me ownership over my body, my voice. It allowed me to go through a process that was really healing and to step into the ring, not only to show my three daughters what is possible, but also for all the women who didn't think that's possible to show others what can be done. And so Fight Forward was

born out of that response and the program we run, one of the programs is the Fight Back Initiative where we train a group of women to step into the ring for a 10-week program. And the idea is about exactly that consent and stepping into the ring ownership over your body and your voice. But what I didn't learn or could predict was the immense power of community and connection that these women created, which is a huge part of the healing process and the lack of isolation. Lots of topics we've touched on on the programme today. Olivia, you were nodding away to what Leslie was saying, every single word. How did you come to be involved in this course?

What went on in your life? So I went through two years being part of a domestic violent relationship It was it was abusive physically and sexually and emotionally and I really thought it was gonna end me I contemplated suicide. I know you're speaking about that earlier and That there was a there was a moment where he was abusive in public and I thought this is it I can't do this anymore. He's either gonna take my life or I'm gonna do it. So I then Reached out to a friend who knew a police officer and she was like there is another there is a way out of this So then led my journey and six years later here I am

Oh, that's so good to hear so you you did actually get the help you needed. I did, I did and I mean I've got the most incredible family and some pretty powerful sisters who were there to support me and lift me up and yeah I wouldn't be here without them that's for sure. What did you get from this course? Oh my goodness well ten weeks of exercise was pretty hardcore and it's every, which is not spoken about every single day, 6am, 5k. Seven days a week. Well, you got one day off to sleep. So, but the community that you got, which I hadn't also realized,

I thought it was just going to be a bit of boxing, bit of exercise with women who I've not, I've not spent a lot of time with women who have been through domestic violence or at least spoken about it. So you're with 10 other women who totally get it and you have the community as well as this box, the boxing, which has completely changed my life. I've always played rugby. So this was a whole new sport for me. Um, and it was, yeah, it has changed my life. Why do you love it? For me, I've got quite a busy ADHD brain and this is three minutes of sparring where I'm just it's silence and

you're like floating and it's like painting a picture you're okay this sounds very woo-woo but you're you're jabbing and you're you're just thinking about hit or not be hit and that's it there's nothing else there's no school run there's no whatsapp there's no tik-. So yeah, it's a pretty focused few minutes. And this is the point, Leslie, isn't it? I suppose you have to be in the moment when you're in the ring. I think there's no room for distractions. There's no room for distractions. And also it's really about showing up for yourself. So this is my time. This is my moment. And in doing so, you know, there's a lot of scientific research around physical movement and trauma and how it moves.

You know, trauma lives in the body and doing something vigorous can be really helpful to that process. So we're actually creating a research proposal to look at how boxing can actually be a viable tool used to heal women who have experienced domestic abuse. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it, that we're talking about boxing, a violent sport, as a response to a negative violence in a way. What would you say to that? It feels like an ironic conclusion, doesn't it? It sounds controversial.

I've definitely had feedback as to why you're putting women who've experienced violence into situations that seem volatile, but it's quite the opposite, because it's about ownership and autonomy over yourself and taking back control. And at the same time, showing up and choosing this for yourself. And at any time, you can say, no, I don't want to do this. And that is a huge part of reclaiming your power. In fact, it alchemizes that process. Olivia can share more from her point of view. It's the least violent thing. And maybe because I play rugby at grassroots level, and that's a lot more violent. Exactly. Whereas because you're so focused and you're calm,

and it's, as I say about floating, but it's the jab and the cross and it's, yeah, it's not violent. I mean, if you meet boxers, they're just the least violent people, right? Yeah, and what's really special is the community of women. We're really good at kind of celebrating each other and afterwards saying, oh that was a great jab. Good jab! Yeah. Oh, you got me there, didn't you? Yeah, it's so ridiculous. It's not match up at all. No. You had a public match, did you? At the end, do you mean a public match. Did you?

I do at the end. Do you mean I mean have you have you done that? We did at the end end of the 10 weeks. I'm glad you asked because I did win. Thank you for asking. How could you forget that? Yeah, and yeah, it was it was quite incredible and having my family and the whole boxing team my boyfriend they're cheering me on. I mean that is just a moment, just looking back. It was pretty epic. I want to ask about your children then, because Leslie was saying about role models for the next generation coming behind you. How do you think what you're doing now has changed their perception of you? I think it's really important that we, yes, domestic abuse happens to women but we're not weak and sad and we can come out fighting

literally. You know I've just started my own business and we are, you see CEOs and leaders like these people are experiencing domestic violence and masking is quite important conversation. You know I was masking going to university and doing a drama degree, but going home and it was a different story. And I think storytelling and learning about these kind of pretty badass women. And I think that conversation is really, really important. Leslie, final word to you. What do you want to achieve through getting this message of this course out there and the lives you're changing? I think we're about to run a new cohort in May for Fight Night in July, so

please visit the website fightforward.org.uk to sign up. And also just picking up on this idea, you know, the new statistics out today is that we're really interested, you know, of course women are experiencing suicide as a result of this, but I don't think it has to be so heavy on the trauma aspect of it and really what Olivia is saying is about positive storytelling, because actually that's how you're going to pull women out of this, by showing them what's possible and also showing them that they have access to community and resources, that it isn't just women in low socio-economic groups. As you said, there's founders, there's leaders that are showing the way and that it is

possible. Well, you are showing the way and that it is possible. Well, you are showing the way and thank you so much for showing up today. Leslie Sackie, former medal-willing boxer and Olivia Culverhouse, thanks for joining us. That was Woman's Hour. Talk to you the same time tomorrow. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4. They remind me of the beauty of the everyday. Illuminated is the home for creative,

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