Woman's Hour - Donna Patterson, Running in the dark, Tammy Faye Musical

Episode Date: October 31, 2022

After Donna Patterson's maternity leave, her employer Morrison’s gave her a full-time role, despite her only working part time. She represented herself in a tribunal and she won a £60k pay-out for maternity discrimination. Donna joins Emma Barnett in the studio. As the clocks go back - and the nights draw in- it can get harder to find the motivation to get outdoors and exercise as the couch beckons. At the weekend the Olympic champion cyclist Chris Boardman wrote about this issue as he was aware that his wife and daughters were affected by this. Rather than putting the onus on women to keep safe he wants men to take more responsibility, he joins Emma alongside Robyn Vinter, the North of England correspondent of the Guardian, who is a runner and also wrote about this issue very recently. Tammy Faye – A New Musical tells the story of rise and fall of American TV evangelists Tammy Faye and her husband Jim Bakker, who preached to millions across the country via their own television satellite channel PTL, Ministry and theme park. The musical written by James Graham features original songs by Elton John and Jake Shears of the Scissor sisters. Olivier award winning actor Katie Brayben takes on the role of Tammy at the Almeida theatre in London. It’s just one week until the midterm elections in the United States. The Republican Party are widely expected to take the House of Representatives – but the Senate could still go either way. So what does this mean for women in America, and how could their opinions on political issues such as Roe v Wade swing the vote? Emma Barnett talks to republican political strategist and talk show host Jennifer Kerns.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It is very good to be back with you indeed. And we start today's programme with a woman who is a perfect antidote to any sluggishness a Monday morning in October can induce. That's because my first guest is Donna Patterson, a woman who took on her former employer, Morrison's, the supermarket chain,

for discriminating against her after maternity leave. I'll share more details of her tribunal case shortly. But she couldn't afford a lawyer, so she took the case herself, with no legal training, cross-examining no less than eight witnesses, some of them former colleagues, and she won. This is to be her first broadcast interview today, here with you, on Woman's Hour. The point is, Donna felt she was being discriminated against, but it was very subtle at first, and as you'll hear, there was lots of praise too. Maternity discrimination of any kind, or any different kind of treatment of a woman because she's had a baby and returned to work only to find her role has changed

and the perception of her too, is meant to be illegal in this country. And yet, well, and yet, we might not hear about many of these cases, many of them are never brought, for a variety of reasons. We also don't hear about them, as many women aren't

quite sure what's happening and what to do about it too and feel powerless as they still have a job so they're grateful but it's somehow not the same situation they left before maternity leave or even the same role. This morning I wanted to give you the chance to air your stories of such discrimination or suspected discrimination and what, if anything, you did about it. Perhaps Donna style. So you can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through our website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply, so you may wish to use Wi-Fi if you can. But I'll be talking to Donna shortly as your stories, I hope, start to come in. Also on today's programme, Katie Braben will be here,

the star of the new Elton John musical, Tammy Faye, which tells the tale of the rise and fall of the TV evangelists, Tammy and her then husband, Jim Baker. The Olympic champion, Chris Boardman, the cyclist, on why he's trying to help women exercise outside in the dark as the nights draw in by telling men to keep their distance. I'm sure you'll have some views on that. And a view of the imminent US midterms from a former Republican strategist

who believes the real war on women is being waged by Democrats. All that to come. But first, over the weekend, and you may have been amongst them, 15,000 people, mainly women, but there were some men too, took to the streets as part of a protest called the March of the Mummies, a nod to Halloween. There were some fantastic costumes as well, in 11 cities across the UK, demanding a serious point, despite those costumes,

that the new Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak, urgently address the high cost and availability of childcare. But it was also about changing the culture of working life in the UK and allowing women and men to be able to be both a decent parent and worker. Mr Sunak has come under some fire for only having six female full-time members of the Cabinet out of 22, and today, at the appointment of Maria Caulfield as Minister for Women, has also raised some eyebrows in certain quarters due to her voting record on abortion rights, having voted against the legalisation of it in Northern Ireland and supporting the cutting of the abortion limit.

The march at the weekend was organised by the campaign group Pregnant Then Screwed, which also supported my first guest today, Donna Patterson. Donna returned to work having had her second baby and her employer, Morrisons, gave her a full-time role despite her only working and being paid for part-time hours. Donna decided to take legal action against her employer, but the legal cover which came with her home insurance refused to cover the claim on two occasions as they believed it would not be successful. They were wrong. The only option Donna felt was to represent herself. She cross-examined eight witnesses during a five-day tribunal

and won a £60,000 payout for unfair dismissal and discrimination. I'm very pleased to say Donna Patterson joins me now in her first broadcast interview in the Woman's Hour studio. Good morning and welcome. Good morning. Thank you for having me on. It's quite a moment for you, I imagine, at this time. Yeah, it's been a bit of a whirlwind since the hearing finished on Friday the 21st of October. I mean, the lead up to the hearing has been a lot to deal with.

But yes, certainly afterwards, the attention and the coverage has been really unexpected. I mean, I knew what happened was wrong. And let's get to that if we can, because I think for some listening, they have been unsure if something's happening to them. And you nodded very knowingly when I said that about how you can be thinking something's happening and not quite sure it's different.

What was it like for you? Yeah, so there was lots of different incidents that led up to me eventually raising a claim. And individually, they probably don't sound like a huge deal. And when you're in an environment where that kind of behaviour happens a lot, you end up questioning yourself if you're overreacting, making a big deal out of something. But then when you cumulatively look at them all together you then start to think this can't this can't just be me I can't be overreacting so

a couple of examples are um while I just before I announced my pregnancy I was asked to take on a new role that um I was quite interested in I said I was interested. And then just for full disclosure, I thought I'd better make them aware that I'm pregnant because, you know, I'll be going off soon after taking on the role. And all of a sudden the role disappeared. I didn't raise any complaints about it at the time. I didn't want to be known as one of those difficult women who cause a fuss. I knew I'd be returning from maternity leave so I didn't want any awkwardness. Then fast forward to going on maternity leave, a restructure was done but I was assured the whole time do not worry there will be a role for you in this business when you come back.

Then during my maternity leave I was ignored when I tried to communicate, to talk about returning to work. But again, I didn't want to be seen as one that was kicking up a fuss or making things difficult, especially knowing that I would be going back. And then things just really came to a head once I had returned. And the role that I had been placed in with very very little discussion about it was a full-time role everybody had previously performed it in full-time hours and when I raised that with my line manager because you'd come back part-time yeah I'd had a part-time contract for three hours sorry for three years at that point to try to balance the whole work life situation so I had an established part

time contract and when I made my manager aware of that he explained he had no idea that I had a part-time contract and that hadn't been taken into consideration when placing me in that role and did you then try to to fulfill the role within hours? I came up with some suggestions. I suggested could we job show with somebody else? Could parts of the role be removed? Could I return to the team that I worked in previously, which 50% of the team work part time. So it's a really role that accommodates part time working. And initially, they were minded to move me to a different role they said they would find me an alternative suitable role and that was communicated out within the business and then a matter of weeks later I was told oh actually we've decided there's no need to move you to a

different role because the role that you are in is more than suitable for you you are really experienced you're great at your job. We believe you can do it. You just need to prioritise things a bit better and get your head in the right place and get your mindset right. And you can definitely do this with your eyes closed. And I just felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall that nobody was listening to me. At the same time, I was going to meetings and being

called out for things not being finished on time my line manager was having to pick up substantial pieces of work because they just weren't getting done um and yes once they had said that that was it they were leaving me in that role uh it was clear to me that I had to do something pregnant and screwed were amazing I spoke to them a. Pregnant and Screwed were amazing. I spoke to them a number of times and they gave me some really great advice. So I began the internal processes of a grievance and then an appeal. And then ultimately I had to raise an employment tribunal claim because the internal processes that are meant to be there to protect you as a person as an employee just totally failed me every investigation found that there was no issue the role was suitable because my managers

had said it was suitable and without any actual validation that the role had been adjusted for me and once you you launched agreements had you left by that point? No so the grievance and the appeal were conducted while I was still an employee with all of this going on me still trying to do the job my children getting chickenpox back to back my youngest picking up every bug going because he was a Covid baby and had little to no immunity and then juggling the job. I spoke to my GP, explained what was going on. The GP explained, it's clear, you know, you are struggling with work-related stress and it is not an environment you should be in. So I began a period of sick leave and we tried to resolve, I tried continually to try to resolve things with

Morrisons and we just couldn't get things resolved and it was at that point that I raised the employment tribunal claim and I handed my notice in. And you didn't have any legal representation as I mentioned you tried to have cover for this through your home insurance. Yes. That was declined. And so you're now having coming off the back of that, looking at this with only one option, which is for you to represent yourself. Yeah, well, yes, because I did speak to solicitors and the rates were so expensive. So it was £300 per hour was the cheapest solicitor price I could get.

And it was an unknown entity of how many hours would rack up in order to pursue the claim. I did also speak and explore the no-win, no-fee option solicitor, but they were just so insistent on getting to a settlement and avoiding a hearing. And the money was never the appeal. What I wanted was to demonstrate to Morrisons what had happened and what had gone wrong and how I had been failed. So you're right, I then realised I've got to take this on myself and pursue the claim. And how did you feel at that moment making that decision? Really overwhelmed. And I was questioning myself and continued to question myself throughout the whole period of time leading up to the hearing. Some days I would think, yeah, I've got this this makes sense it's logical what I'm saying there's lots of other

cases that I can refer to that have similarities to mine and then other days I would just think what on earth have I taken on how how can I possibly see this through and yeah I continued to question myself but what massively helped me was the other cases that I had read about that were successful so for example Helen Larkin who took on Liz Earle the beauty brand and Pregnant and Screwed shared her story and she self-represented herself and luckily I reached out to Helen via Pregnant and Screwed and Helen was an immense support. She was able to explain to me step by step as a litigant in person, which is what you are classed as without a legal representation,

what's expected of you, what tactics might be used by your employer's solicitors. How even to refer to the judge, I imagine. 100% that was something I had no idea. The language of legal representation. Correct and then you know things happen and catch you off guard so for example I thought I was up against a solicitor but at the 11th hour a barrister turned up and sent me an email and said I have been appointed to represent. So all of a sudden I found myself corresponding with a barrister,

which whenever in your life do you do that? And what was it like when it began? I mean, I mentioned cross-examining people. These were some of them, people you knew and you'd worked with. Yeah, there was a couple that I felt really anxious about because these were people that I had known at the beginning of my career. They had supported me and taught me a lot about what I know about the industry and my job. And they felt I was really worried about those because it's a big thing what I was taking on. Others I wasn't as worried about because I fundamentally disagreed with how they had treated me. And I felt like I had been failed.

So I also seen it as an opportunity to ask questions that had just repeatedly been ignored. And I knew that in the hearing they had sworn an oath. So they had to give me answers that they'd previously avoided giving me. Did you enjoy those ones? I think enjoy is a double-edged sword. There was satisfaction and the judge at times what seemed to be as outraged as I was which was really reassuring because I thought

I haven't been making this up the whole time. Somebody else independent who is legally highly qualified is as flabbergasted as I am. Yes. I mean, it's something to think that it's happening, then know it's happening, then do something about it. I mean, you've been compared to British Erin Brockovich in the papers in the last few days. I don't know how you feel about that. The woman, of course, that we know from the film played by Julia Roberts, who took on her own legal case

and, you know, a class suit. Yeah, I mean, I love the film. It's brilliant. And I don't know, it feels a little bit strange being compared to somebody like that who you would have looked up to, I looked up to, and really admired. But I guess what I hope is that, just like I did with the likes of Helen Larkin and others I read about,

that other people, women and men, will read about my case and what I did and think, yeah, I've got an opportunity here. If she can do it, I can do it, which is the mentality I had. And I know you want to help others and you want to help specifically women who've been through this or think they may be going through it. But what toll do you think this took on you? Because that's also not spoken about because women are very grateful a lot of the time to still have a job.

It's huge I will never ever underplay how big it was it was grueling it was exhausting I was up until very late at night preparing going through documents and even during the hearing each day I would go home each evening and I would be drained I had nothing left in me but pretty much every night I would lie in bed thinking I'm glad I've done this like weighing everything up even if this does not go the way that I want it to go at least I know I tried at least I know I gave it my bestest shot. And then whatever comes of it, I can at least console myself with, I tried, I tried to make a difference. We approached Morrison's, but they weren't able to provide a statement. Speaking to the Daily Mail, the supermarket chain said the following, we don't accept we acted in an unfair way and we believe a number of the facts have been misrepresented.

We are considering an appeal. We'll see what happens with that. Are you going to have a lawyer if that happens or are you yourself again? I think it could potentially end up being me again just because of the unknown legal costs that are involved. And you've got a track record, which is what the law is often based

on stay with me uh for for now because i just want to bring in lara kennedy a lawyer with the solicitors lee day lara you've been listening to the details and the the position donna found herself in good morning good morning how common are these situations when women return from maternity leave well unfortunately discrimination on the grounds of pregnancy maternity leave? Well, unfortunately, discrimination on the grounds of pregnancy and maternity leave is actually very common. Donna isn't alone in her situation. A survey which was done by the Equality and Human Rights Commission back in 2017, actually, found that a staggering 77% of mothers

have suffered these negative discriminatory experiences. And 54,000 mothers every year are reporting feeling forced to leave their jobs. This is awful. I mean, one in five of them are suffering from harassment or negative comments. Yet, despite these statistics, only about 1% are actually going to an employment tribunal. So it really does highlight here the resilience, which has just been shown by Donna, enabled to stand up for her rights by herself and hopefully she will inspire many other women to do the same. Yes, we're getting many messages to that effect, some to others if I can I'll share in a moment, but it doesn't necessarily reflect that well on your profession

does it? It's very expensive to get a lawyer. Absolutely it is I mean I can't say it's not otherwise which is certainly what makes those organisations like Pregnant and Screwed, Maternity Action and the others out there so valuable to women in Donna's position. Well I won't hold you to account for how much lawyers cost I'll use your skill to better use if I can because what I didn't know and hopefully hopefully you can help with, is that if you take over a certain amount of time away on maternity leave, away from your role, your role can be changed. That's correct, isn't it? That is correct to some extent. So quite often a question many women will ask is, am I entitled to return to the same job when you go off on maternity leave? And

that does very much depend on how much time you take off so maternity leave is divided into ordinary which is your first 26 weeks and during that period you do have the right to return to the same job and during your second 26 weeks which will take a woman up to her full 52 weeks whilst you are still entitled to return to the same job an employee might be able to show that there is some reason, other than the redundancy, why it's not actually reasonably practical, they would say in law, for her to return to the same job. So it's meant to be a similar level, but not necessarily the same job. Is that right? Yes, it needs to be suitable and it needs to be appropriate for her in the circumstances. So all of your terms and conditions, such as your pay, location, let's say seniority,

shouldn't be any less favourable than what they were before you went off. Thank you for that. I mean, also, I know I'll get a couple of messages about this. Time off. Not quite time off, is it? But time away from the role. I wish it did sound a bit more like that in reality.

Just, Lara, thank you very much for that and giving us the position and also how widespread this can be and has been. Lara Kennedy, a lawyer with the solicitors' lead day. Going back to a lawyer in training here, Donna Patterson, just want to read you this message. And believe me, we're getting a lot of messages supporting you, people being in awe of what you've been able to do.

We're also getting messages from people about their own experiences and women talking specifically about maternity leave. We've got this one from Tristan who says, this is such a ridiculous story. Women who come back from maternity leave have far too much power. No small business could survive in business if this is now the precedent. It's ludicrous.

No wonder women of childbearing age have a bad employment reputation. So crazy. Women expect employers to bend over backwards. It is just not possible in business. Donna, what do you say to that? I would say therein lies the problem. That is a lot of the time the attitudes that you are up against. You are no less capable just because you are pregnant or you have had a baby

in fact there's lots of evidence to support you are the most efficient you have ever been in your life and the idea that women um after maternity leave have lots of power i can wholeheartedly say that that isn't the case i know that um some smaller organizations organisations probably do have concerns, but Pregnant and Screwed circulate a lot of information about how employers have got lots of support out there if they need it to understand how maternity leave works and accommodating that. personal situation we're not talking about a small organization we're talking about a huge company that employs over a hundred thousand people and they have extensive HR and employee relations want to be a lawyer after all of this I don't know if I've got the stamina for that but I absolutely will happily help make the self-representation process a bit clearer because I certainly found that it's disjointed and there's not a lot of clear and concise information and that's what I know you're focusing on at the moment Donna Patterson thank you very much for talking to us this morning and all the best and

good luck thank you very much a message here from Katie says well done Donna your interviews literally stopped me in my tracks I'm both fuming but I'm also so proud of you and another one here anonymous which says I think it's an interesting one to hear after Tristan we have lots of male listeners I know after Tristan's message just then hello when I returned after six months of maternity leave I was told I wasn't given the promotion to head of department as I'd be too busy with my baby I didn't make a fuss as I felt vulnerable coming back into the organization after some time out and hearing other horror stories from friends.

The job went to an unexperienced, unqualified man, ironically with two young children, who was later demoted and moved to a different department, and I was left as the most senior person to pick up the pieces and handle the work as well as my own job. I loved the work and my colleagues, so we all pitched in to make it a success. But later I was so angry with the chief executive's decisions and comments and there you go an anonymous message about how

vulnerable you feel and for the record the chief executive was a woman keep your messages coming in please on your experiences or how you perhaps relate to this story or you know someone that is or your views of this maybe as a business owner 84844 is the number you need. Now as the clocks go back and the nights draw in it can get harder to find the motivation to go outdoors and exercise as a sofa beckons. I relate. That's even more so for women with many citing safety fears as to why they choose to stop exercising outdoors if that's what they've been doing in the warmer months during winter. At the weekend the Olympic champion cyclist Chris Boardman wrote about this issue as he was aware his wife and daughters were affected by this. Rather than putting the onus on women to

keep safe he wrote that he wants men to take more responsibility. I spoke to him just before coming on air this morning. I've worked with Sportland for over a year now and one of the things that we we've realized is the barriers aren't always obvious um and in terms of its perception is just as important as reality if people don't feel safe then they won't do something if if it's not easy then they won't do it if it's not convenient and one of the issues for women as the night's drawing is it just doesn't feel safe on the street. So I just I'll just stop doing that thing I've been enjoying in the summer. And the barriers is me. It's people like me and a perception of danger. And in some case, you know, that that's actually been found to be true.

And we can do some really small things, really small things to just make the streets and parks a more welcoming place and that's what the article was about really just let's see if we can help the women that want to exercise in the in the winter evenings as the nights draw in let's just help them do that you only say people like me you're talking about men and there are some specific pieces of advice that you've issued around giving women space not talking to to women that they don't know along those lines yeah i mean i think if anybody just says hello as the passing that's absolutely fine but but any other comment even if it's supposed to be complimentary just don't do do it. It's not welcome. It's intimidating. You're moving into somebody else's space.

If you're walking or running behind a woman who's doing the same thing, well, just either pause for a bit and give them a bit of space or maybe cross over. And it's real simple, small things like that. I think where it gets harder is when you really have to try and affect culture change. And that's if somebody you know and we tend to all know somebody who would just make a small comment or say something then you ask them not to you know you can try and do it have you ever done that have you ever said to to a guy you know who might be someone who would say something to a woman they didn't know in the

street something um no i haven't excuse me i haven't but i've certainly seen a witness on the street and think i didn't say anything there. And it might just take a simple, come on, mate. You know, something small that just gives people pause. And it's, you know, it's not a lot to ask. It's uncomfortable, but it's not a lot to ask to do that. And all of those things add up to just moving our culture and our streets the way we want it to go and i've got obviously a wife i've got two daughters um and that's what gave me pause really and i thought about what advice would you give them and and i could you know we all our phones are linked and i can see where my daughter is and i'll check when she's on her way home but i won't do that for for

the boys and that's not right that's not where she wants to live and it's not where I want her to live. I mean women have talked about this for a long time saying there's a sort of unofficial unspoken curfew in the winter when it comes to exercising around the clock and when women can do it and when it's light and when it's not. I suppose the problem is, and it would be interesting to hear

what the response has been to your piece that you wrote in The Guardian, is that the people, the men that you are talking to, aren't probably going to read it. Yeah, and that's, I mean, the first thing we do is you put it out there and then we have to disseminate it and draw attention to it. And that's where I guess another point where people can join in to say, have a look at this.

It's actually, I'd never really thought about that. So we can all do our bit in drawing attention to just the small changes that we can make. And I'm coming at this from a point of ignorance. You know, I've been in a privileged position that these haven't been concerns for me. So I'm learning a lot as I go as well. And in terms of whether you think this, you know,

the idea of saying to men to change their behavior whether that will then because he talks about the perception make women feel like it's safer you know that's that it's about knowing what will actually make that change and what what do you think it would be having looked at the research having started to learn about this well i think it's it's just first of all it's awareness and then it becomes okay to make a comment um and it's it's small things that build up um and i i think if there's more tangible things that i could do then then i'd um i'd be quite happy to get involved but as i say at the point at this moment i'm really coming at it from a point of ignorance

i'm learning and and the small things because i don't see them i don't feel them and so i have to be instructed and it takes a conversation with my wife as which is where this started for me or with my daughters to um to actually see that there's things they don't mention because for them it's become normal that um that it isn't within their gift to actually change the circumstances but it is within mine and what response have you had to the piece it seems to have been um very positive i think there's been a couple of calls have been patronizing um but but 99 has been thanks and even that feels uncomfortable because it's not something we should have to do uh but but we do we clearly do the fact that there is there's a response to it

at all and i'm speaking to you says wow that's this really shouldn't be a thing um but but clearly it is and that i guess coming back to your earlier point that is the point it's it's raising awareness in the first instance that there's some small things that we could do to make streets more welcoming it seems to be on trend as well with the home office's enough campaign which puts the onus on men to take responsibility for violence against women the scottish police have a similar campaign i suppose just just going back to the point about the men that this will get through to and the men it needs to get through to are you concerned that the right men will not listen i think you start somewhere and then it spreads out and then it reaches further and further so you're not going to do anything huge with a single article but it's part of a process of actually generally waking and

normalizing the calling out of bad behavior um so it's it's part of a process of actually generally waking and normalizing the calling out of bad behavior so it's part of a much bigger picture there you go chris broadman i'm getting involved with this particular discussion i'm joined now by robin vintner the north of england correspondent of the guardian who's a runner and wrote about this issue very recently good morning morning i think it's a bit of a stretch to call me a runner i'm a run i'm a runner for fun all right i'm definitely not competitive in any way occasional runner after chris the olympian but chris getting involved in this he said some of very few but some have found it patronizing uh others saying thank you where are you on that i you know what it would be great if we as women can can just say you know this is an issue that's happening and it'd be, you know, nice if people would just listen to us based on that.

But, you know, this is the real world. And, you know, there are unfortunately some men that would only listen to Chris Boardman and wouldn't listen to us. And I think, you know, with being able to get kind of high profile men to join in and to to add their voices to this I you know I don't see it as a negative thing I think it's it's a positive. Have you had incidents while you've been out running occasionally? Yeah I mean nothing nothing nothing kind of absolutely terrifying and nothing you know nothing that I should have been afraid of really but um you know often the you know I think a lot of women have had this experience where you know you feel footstep you hear footsteps behind you and you can feel someone running up behind you and

it's just a man who's running slightly faster than you and it's all fine you know he's out for a run you're out for a run um and you know i actually had one the other day um it was about a week and a half ago i was running in the woods um and it was during the day but you know the woods is you know it's a bit dark um and a man just stepped out in kind of in front of me um from behind like a load of trees and a wall and he you know he didn't have a dog with him and he wasn't running uh and I was and I was spooked like you know it it shocked me um and i think all it was was just he was uh i suspect he was out looking for magic mushrooms actually because it was a good magic mushroom spot um and he had that's a whole that's a whole other discussion which we can't do right now but carry

on he hadn't meant anything by it you know he wasn't meaning to scare me he certainly wasn't meaning to attack me or anything like that um but it was just the way he stepped out you know out of he came out of nowhere um that is enough to you know I didn't scream but I you know I could have done because that's how you know that's how much I was I was shocked by it um and yeah yeah there are kind of all sorts of experiences like that they're very small things you know uh just again in the woods a man gesturing for me to take my earphones out. And all he was doing was he was telling me to keep going. But it's just like that kind of stuff's really unhelpful. You know, we're in the woods. There's no one else here.

I think what you're describing is the perception as well, though, isn't it? You know, so it's what's very hard to deal with. One side is the men who do actively make it a more threatening experience yeah but the other side is how you deal with deal with getting over the fear of the unknown and some of those experiences you've had before which may not happen at all and and may and may be something that are holding you back and and shouldn't be i mean i'm just looking at a couple of messages you know suze just said i'm 64 fit and healthy but i didn't go for a walk last night as my partner didn't want to go and I would have felt unsafe. I live opposite a park.

It was a shame. And there's this active curfew, which isn't really spoken about, on some women when the nights start to draw in earlier. Yeah, that's it. And that's the problem, really. When I go running, I'm going running because I want to be outdoors. I want to get some fresh air, you know, see some nice nature. And, you know, part of it is the exercise as well. But but, you know, it's it's about being able to unwind and have some time to myself.

And it's not that you don't get really that, you know, I know, you know, statistically, it's very, very unlikely that something would happen to me. But out running in the dark, I can't get the same kind of relaxation and enjoyment from it as I would, you know, if it was, you know, daylight and I could feel completely relaxed. Yeah, I think that's also a message that's coming through from people on the messages. Nancy says, brilliant. Men absolutely need to get actively involved in this culture shift. And another one here saying, I recently went to meet my partner in town early evening i walked through our local park i was approached by a man i gave him the benefit of the doubt thinking he may be asking for directions instead he asked if i could perform a sex act on him i said no very politely but i felt like screaming i'm 25 now and i've experienced sexual harassment and assault just going for a walk since the age of 11.

It's disgusting, infuriating and exhausting. Because I can imagine that some listening may be thinking, well, just, you know, have a bit more faith in the majority around you, which is what you're saying. But then you have an example like that, where you're going for a walk in early evening and that happens. Yeah, that's it, yeah. And that's, it is the really annoying

thing because and that's we know with all of these discussions the difficulty is we don't want to say oh you know we're afraid of all men you know all men we have we have reasons to be afraid of all men but it's just a very very very small minority and unfortunately you can't tell you know if you're in a park and a man comes up to you you can't tell whether it's just a perfectly innocent, normal, nice man who's asking for directions or somebody who wants to assault you. And, you know, we do keep having to say this over and over again because that message just does not seem to be getting through to some men, I think. Just finally, are you going to go running then? When you do go running, are you going to go outside? What's the decision? I go to the gym now during the week in the evenings. And then on the weekend, I treat myself to a nice long run during the day on a Saturday. During the day on a Saturday and try and not cross paths with those who are suddenly appearing

when looking for perhaps magic mushrooms. Who knows? Robin, thank you for sharing. Robin Vintner there, how you're trying to deal with this at the moment. Tammy Faye, the TV Christian preacher who claims in the end she was saved by the gay community. A new Elton John musical called Tammy Faye has just opened at the Almeida Theatre in London. It tells the story of the rise and fall of the American TV evangelist Tammy and her then husband Jim Baker. The couple created a multi-million dollar evangelical empire. It included their own ministry, the Christian Ministry, and a religious satellite TV network, PTL, which stands for Praise the Lord, and a theme park.

Their shows were watched by millions in the 80s, but the empire collapsed amid a sex and financial scandal that later saw Jim imprisoned for fraud and conspiracy. The musical features original songs by Elton John and Jake Shears of the Scissor Sisters and the Olivier Award winning actor Katie Braben plays Tammy and she's here with me in the studio. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. I feel like I need to go and let you lie down. I did come and watch this on Friday. It's a wonderful performance by you. It's hugely energetic. And the cast, it looks like a fantastic ensemble. Did you know anything about Tammy before you took the role? No, actually, I didn't know much about televangelism at all. I didn't know about Tammy and Jim.

But as soon as you, you know, get to deep dive on that stuff, it's kind of extraordinary. And their story is kind of wild they're incredibly popular at their height aren't they amazing i mean they're very powerful at their height and um you know they had this satellite which meant they had this reach into people's homes um and uh they just gained more and more followers and you know it actually became very powerful in fact people may have become more aware because of Jessica Chastain winning an Oscar for playing Tammy Faye in the film The Eyes of Tammy Faye.

Now there's this musical. Has that just happened at the same time randomly or has there been a long-term interest by Elton John in this? Well, I mean, this has been ten years in the making for Elton and Jake, certainly, and has sort of really gained speed in the last sort of five years um i think it's really interesting that both those things have come out now and i wonder if it's to do with it feels like we're really polarized at the moment

in our views of things and which you know with cancel culture and everything and and when you've got somebody who, like Tammy, who sort of was a pioneer in sort of bridging those gaps between people and giving people, you know, a voice to people who perhaps, certainly in the Christian community, in the conservative Christian community, didn't have a voice. I think that's really perhaps why it speaks to people at the moment. There's a particular scene in the play where Jimmy doesn't want to do the programme, Jim, excuse me, and Tammy does it on her own.

And I know everything's not entirely accurate. It's to paint the picture of the power dynamics that were going on. She's a huge hit. She connects with people, doesn't she? Yeah, I think she really had this warmth. And I think it comes from her, she's a huge she she really had this warmth and um I think it comes from her she's a huge empath really um and she has a great you know had a great love for people and a connection with people and she really fed off that and they and they you know really warmed to her I think that was her power really she was um just incredibly herself yes and I mean, she was also the only woman in a sea of men.

Absolutely, and that's not to be underestimated. I mean, I can't imagine on a day-to-day basis how difficult that must have been at times for her, you know, at the time, you know, in the 70s and 80s, that she would have sort of been up against it, really. Because they started with puppets didn't they they did they started just to help her cause she should be taken seriously as a tv preacher yeah i mean she um she they did start out with puppets and um i think there was part of her

that would have been really happy to sort of carry on doing that and to spread the word via yeah i think just any way of spreading the word of God. And they were, you know, they really believed what they were selling, you know, that you can't deny that. And, yeah, they just became sort of bigger and bigger. And I think through, you know, their partnership, Jim and Tammy's partnership, they sort of, their ambitions sort of grew. Well, they really did.

Let me play something else here from 1985, because Tammy Faye interviewed Steve Peters, a gay pastor living with AIDS, on their programme. It proved to be a seminal TV moment. Let's hear a clip from the musical. I know you must feel lonely sometimes with people being so frightened of it, you know? Have you found people are afraid to come up to you?

Yes, I have. I heard our friend Pat Robertson suggested you can catch AIDS simply by sharing a towel with someone. Thankfully, that is not at all true. But, I mean, it's a free country and I don't judge. To think you may never again have a hug. How sad that we as Christians who are supposed to be able to love everyone are afraid so badly of an AIDS patient that we won't go up and put our arms around them. But I want to tell you that there are a lot of Christians here today who would not be afraid to put their arms around you

to show you that we love you and that we care. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much, Tammy, for using your platform to speak about this. I know that, well, in this climate, it's not the easiest thing to do, so thank you. God loves you, Steve. He really does.

That was a major moment, wasn't it? Yeah, it was huge. And I think you can't underestimate that. And I think that so much of her legacy is about that moment, actually, of inclusivity and, as I say, sort of giving a voice to someone who, you know, on a Christian channel where, you know, people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and, you know, Marvin Gormer were sort of so against, you know, the gay community. These are fellow TV preachers.

Yeah, sorry, they're preachers at the time, conservative Christian preachers, you know, for her to give the floor to someone like Steve, who, who, by the way, is still alive. And Ashley, amazing Ashley, who plays Steve, is in contact with him. And it seems like such an amazing man. And, you know, for that to be so much part of her legacy, I think is is right. And I think that's probably where really the genesis for this whole thing comes from. Well, I mentioned, as it would be probably unexpected if you're thinking of an evangelical Christian TV preacher, in the end, she says she was saved by the gay community and their support for her because it all goes wrong. It implodes as a financial and sex scandal Jim ends up going to jail I mean without going into all the details of that what does it mean

when we talk about what the gay community meant to her well I think um I think it's hard to describe what the gay community meant to her because they they saved her I think you know she she was so persecuted and you know uh in the press um she was brought down so hard you know from being lifted so high she was brought down so hard and actually i think even more so than jim and i think that is because she was a woman and um you know the gay community because she had an arms open approach you know they had an-open approach to her. And I think also, you know, she was someone who was persecuted and that very much is understood by the gay community and they took her in.

And I think... I mean, there's a lot of joy in this musical as well. Oh, yeah. I mean, Elton John has obviously done this and, you know, working together with the team that he's put together on this, you know, there's a lot of joy to try and show that relationship, isn't that? There's lots of campness, there's lots of, you know, quite sexualized versions of biblical stories at times. I mean, you must be enjoying a great deal of this, although there's a lot of pain.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's so, it's so fun to do. And, you know, we were talking about James Graham earlier, weren't we? And he's written, he's so funny. He's so funny. And then you've got Jake Shears, whose lyrics are just, as you imagine, sort of very sort of witty and funny. And, yeah, it really is a joy to do. And it does, you know, for me, it is, you know, for me to play, it is an emotional journey. But there's so much joy in it.

So much joy. How do you come down after performing that every night? I don't know, really. It gets to the point sometimes when you do things like this, it becomes your life. So actually you just live your life through what you do on stage. So I'm very boring in my actual life. I don't really do much. I just sort of like... Well, you haven't built a sort of TV empire or a theme park on the side? Not yet.

Well, she says right at the beginning, well, the words are, if I hadn't lived it, I wouldn't have believed it. true and I think it's true that you know she was absolutely a pioneer but probably didn't set out to be you know and um uh you know she's that's why she's so remarkable really thank you for coming to talk to us using your voice in the rare break it has Katie Braben though he's playing Tammy Faye the show is called Tammy Faye the musical it's on at the Almeida Theatre until the 3rd of December all the best with it well I suppose keeping with theida Theatre until the 3rd of December. All the best with it. Well, I suppose keeping with the US, but to the political side of things, one of the most powerful women in demanded to see Nancy Pelosi stoking fears about political violence in the run-up to next week's midterm elections. The midterms are widely regarded as a temperature check on how the current administration is doing. All the seats in the House of Representatives are up for election

and a third of the seats in the Senate. Well, joining me now, Jennifer Kearns, political commentator, former strategist for the Republican Party and the author of a new book, The Real War on Women, Times Up for Radical Feminism and the Democrats' Liberal Progressive Socialist Agenda. Jennifer, welcome to the programme. I should say later in the week I'll be speaking to a Democrat in the run-up to these midterms, but good to have you with us.

I thought we could start because a lot of our listeners will have been following what's happened with Nancy Pelosi, with the family, and what's been said. I'd start with that. What is your reaction to this and the reaction today in America? Well, it certainly is a terrible tragedy. You know, there's such heated rhetoric, I think, on both sides. I think it's no coincidence that this happened, given the temperature in the room, so to speak. You know, there was a report over the weekend that members of Congress on both sides actually were given $10,000 stipend over the summer to actually increase and improve the security systems at their own homes, at their offices in D.C., and even at their homes back in their home state. So certainly, you can understand that the temperature is rising here ahead of the

midterms just eight days away. Do you think this will have changed that, though? You know, I don't know. And, you know, you've probably seen, as I have, a ton of conspiracy theories. And, you know, I spoke with someone last night who's very close with the San Francisco Police Department detective. And they said, no, no, despite all of the vast conspiracy theories that are going on, this does look like a simple case of somebody showing up to the, you know, first female Speaker of the House House and trying to wait it out for her. And this, I think, really speaks to, again, on both sides, just the heated rhetoric and the need really to turn the temperature down on this. Yes. Although there's been criticism that Donald Trump, who is said to want to run again, has been notably silent about the attack on Paul Pelosi. Many Republicans haven't, I should say. but do you want him to say something?

Well, look, I mean, it's difficult for Donald Trump, I think, to say something these days. He's, you know, he's still banned from Twitter despite Elon Musk taking over. Look, I think some of these leaders are waiting to see what the evidence brings in these cases. I think that's the responsible thing to do. And I think, you know, Donald Trump's focused on what he needs to be focused on, which is getting his endorsed candidates to win eight days from now. It's not that difficult for Donald Trump to make his voice heard. He doesn't need Twitter, does he? He can express sorrow and concern.

And we do seem to be able to hear him if he wants to make a statement. You've talked about and you have a belief in the so-called red wave, a big swing towards the Republicans in the midterms. Do you think that's still likely? I do. I think even more so now. And I'll tell you, when the news of the Dobbs case broke in the U.S. Supreme Court in June, I thought, oh, here we go. Republicans won't stand a chance, right, because the left will be so motivated to get out to to have a solution to Roe versus Wade being overturned. But as we've gone through the months and weeks here to the midterm elections. What we've actually seen is women voters in America carrying a great deal about a range of other issues and not just abortion. And it shows to me in looking through the history of women voters, including the huge turnout in 2018 during the Trump administration,

that women are actually thinking quite differently in this midterm season. And they're looking at a range of other issues. The reason I wrote the book, The Real War on Women, is I first heard the term the war on women back in 2013 when I was helping with a focus group in the battleground state of Colorado. And it was really the first time I had heard the phrase. And, of course, it referred to this battle that was being waged on women, mostly by white male Republicans. And I thought, gosh, have I been an unwitting party to this? Is my party really the party that's been perpetrating this? And as I began to really dig in and research, and I had been a researcher and writer for the most watched

presidential debate in America. I'd been a writer for Megyn Kelly. And we had asked a very tough question of Donald Trump, who you just mentioned, about his treatment on women. And so as I really began to dig into the research, I researched Democrats on 14 different policy points, everything from the government lockdowns, to the defunding of police, the last couple of years in America to foreign policy to the march to socialism. And what I found was that it was really the Democratic Party today that is waging this war on women. And I looked at the lockdowns first, because that was just the most recent thing in my mind. And I really came to find that 2 million women left the workforce during the government lockdowns. Now, to be sure, some of that was due to COVID and the pandemic and the precautions that were set up in place in America. But by and large, these took place in very large

blue Democrat-led cities, places like New York City and Los Angeles, and blue states like California, Michigan, and New York. And what I found was that women at two critical points during the pandemic left the workforce. So a million women left the workforce in September of 2020, and another million in America left the workforce in January 2021. Now, why did they do that? They did that because at an even more granular level, Democrats who were running school boards and in charge of cities were keeping schools closed. And so women, you know, were kind of having this conversation, you know, who is going to stay home and take care of the kids. And so that happened to be, Emma, the largest exodus of women.

Isn't that a structural issue, though, with society? And we see that in our own country rather than a political party waging war on women. And on your point about Roe v. Wade, if you look at the polling, I mean, there's polling by YouGov done, there's other polling done to show that more than half of all Americans disapprove of the decision to overturn Roe v. Wade. So it's been it's been attested that Republicans like yourself, those who've supported the Republicans as well, want to turn the attention away from that because it is something that matters greatly and more to women. Well, to address the structural problem, you look at daycare centers, even in Los Angeles were closed. So were the ones in New York City during this whole time period. And this really led to, and I was very surprised by this, feminists have always prided themselves on being a friend to the working woman, having equity in the workplace.

You know, I heard your earlier segment with the sexual harassment case. But what I really found was that Democrat policies were quite unfriendly to women. And we had the largest exodus of women from the workforce since the feminist movement began. You don't identify. Under the Democrat lockdowns. You don't identify. Sorry to break in as a feminist. Is that right? You know, I do, actually. And I was taught at the university level that you could be a feminist even if you were a conservative yeah yeah sorry it was just the way you said that feminists like they're over there and they're not with you but you're just talking about talking about the

movement in general and and i thought that was quite stunning that that was the largest exit of women from the workforce since the feminist movement began and really in American history. And look, in terms of Roe versus Wade, I mean, this was really a point that I thought the Democrats would win the midterms on. As I said, when I heard the news come down in June, the first phrase out of my mouth was, uh-oh, you know, Republicans had better watch out here. This is a highly intensive issue at the ballot box. But what I have found where there were two major polls last year, and these were no conservative outlets, this is the Gallup poll and Pew Research Center, they actually found some interesting views on abortion by Americans. And it's hard for the left

to believe, but 65% of Americans no longer believe in this sort of on-demand, on every corner, in every doctor's office, unfettered access to abortion. And this is quite interesting. The religious right for years, and especially in the Bible Belt states, they run these bills called the so-called heartbeat bills. And five, 10 years ago, these were considered very controversial, very conservative, very Bible Bel know, Bible belting sort of laws. But can you believe 85 percent of Americans now believe in those so-called heartbeat bills? Eighty five percent of Americans now believe, according to those two polls, that if you can hear a baby's heartbeat, you should no longer be able to abort the baby and so i think in the midterm elections the the far left the democrats the the planned parenthoods they have vastly made a i think

a strategic error here and i i did campaigns for uh 15 plus years yes i think they banked too much on this dobbs decision too much on this roe versus wade issue when you look at you're talking there just in case people don't know, about Kansas having a referendum where they actually voted to keep abortion protections in the state constitution. Jennifer, that's all I've got time for, but thank you very much for joining us. Jennifer Kearns, author of this new book,

The Real War on Women, former Republican strategist, and I'll be speaking to a Democrat later this week. Thank you very much for your company this morning. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. From the makers of The Battersea Poltergeist and Uncanny, a new paranormal podcast series from BBC Radio 4, The Witch Farm. People always say, oh, I'd love to live in a haunted house. They bloody well wouldn't. The Witch Farm is the true story of an ordinary couple

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