Woman's Hour - Dr Hilary Cass, Actor Alison Steadman, Operation Identify Me, Electro-folk singer Frankie Archer

Episode Date: October 9, 2024

Dr Hilary Cass, now Baroness Cass, led a four year review into children’s gender identity services in England.  Her final report concluded that children had been let down by a lack of research and "remarkably weak" evidence on medical interventions, and called for gender services for young people to match the standards of other NHS care.  In an exclusive interview Nuala McGovern gets Dr Hilary Cass’s reflections six months on from releasing her landmark report.Alison Steadman is one of our best loved actors.  Candice Marie in Nuts in May, Beverly in Abigail’s Party, Mrs Bennett in Pride and Prejudice and Pamela in Gavin & Stacey, just some of the iconic characters Alison has brought to life.  She’s also won an Olivier Award for The Rise and Fall of Little Voice and a National Society of Film Critic Award.  She is also a keen birdwatcher.  She joins Nuala to talk about her memoir, Out of Character. The second phase of a campaign aimed at finding the names of unidentified women who were murdered or killed in suspicious circumstances is being launched. Operation Identify Me is highlighting another 46 cold cases that European police are seeking to solve. BBC coverage of last year’s appeal helped to identify a British woman, Rita Roberts, some 30 years after her murder. Nuala is joined by BBC Correspondent Anna Holligan. The Northumbrian electro-folk musician Frankie Archer has performed at Glastonbury and The BBC Proms, been featured on ‘Later... With Jools Holland’,and named as One To Watch! She has released a new EP 'Pressure and Persuasion’, through which she tells the stories of four women and girls from centuries past who navigate the same expectations that are put on women today.  She joins Nuala to talk about womanhood, tradfolk and her current UK tour, and to perform her current single, Elsie Marley.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome, well, in a moment. Dr Hilary Cass, six months after her review into Children's Gender Identity Services in England. Also today, the beloved actor Alison Stedman. For more than 50 years she has made us laugh with iconic characters.

We're going to hear all about her extraordinary life and extraordinary career. Staying on actors, Miranda Hart was on Radio 4's Today programme earlier and she shared some happy news that she got married for the first time at 51. She said said it's just so lovely. Getting married in midlife, full injection of joy and fun and you know all my friends have been married 20-30 years like oh husband and I'm like husband

he's great. It's the best. Does that resonate with you? Did you decide in midlife that marriage was for you? What changed? What prompted you to take the plunge, the leap of faith? What was the reaction of your nearest and dearest? You can text the programme, the number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note,

that number is 03700 100444. I have a lot of microphones around me ready for a musical performance. That's because we'll have Frankie Archer also in studio. She's a Northumbrian electro folk musician. I'm looking forward to that performance. And we will

also hear about the next stage of an Interpol campaign that is to identify women who are murdered or killed in suspicious circumstances, all coming up this hour. My first guest, however, is Dr Hilary Cass, now Baroness Cass, who led a four-year review into children's gender identity services in England. Her final report, which came out in April this year,

concluded that children had been let down by a lack of research and, as she put it, remarkably weak evidence on medical interventions in gender care. She called for gender services for young people to match the standards of other NHS care. Both the previous Conservative government and the current Labour one accepted all the review's recommendations.

However, there has also been criticism and backlash from many quarters. Last month, the British Medical Association, the BMA, recommendations. However, there has also been criticism and backlash from many quarters. Last month, the British Medical Association, the BMA, announced that it will carry out its own evidence-led evaluation of the review, which it says it will approach neutrally. So what are Dr Hilary Cass's reflections six months on after releasing her landmark report? She joins me now for an exclusive interview in the Women's Hour studio. Welcome. Good to be here. So a new government in place. You had 32 recommendations in your report. Are you satisfied with the progress thus far? I'm really pleased with the progress so far. Obviously, we have a long way to go, but NHS England has been really proactive in implementing the report. We've got two new centres up and running already. We've got another one coming online within the next

couple of months and then there'll be a further one next year and more to follow. They have picked up on the real imperative around research so they're working with NIHR to make sure that we improve on the research base. And I think the thing that I've been really pleased about is talking to many, many clinical staff since the report was released. They feel more confident that they do have the transferable skills to look after these children and young people.

It's interesting you say that because many were wondering whether recruitment and training would be adequate for these clinics. In your final report, you said you had, and I quote, hope to take learning from these interim services, but instead you learned about the considerable challenges faced in their establishment from a highly emotive and politicised arena. And I will just give the context to our listeners that the Tavistock JIDS clinic closed in March 2024 and the others are opening, as you mentioned, other gender clinics, London, Liverpool, another in Bristol, for example. What about that? How is the recruitment and training going,

particularly within that emotive and politicised arena? We've got some fantastic clinicians already working in the new services with really broad based skills. So they've got skills in autism and in young people's health. So that's the first step is treating these young people just like any other young people in distress and making sure they've got those wraparound services. And recruitment is slow but steady. I think when we did a consultation with clinicians early on in the course of the review, what came across is they were fearful. They didn't know what to do. It was highly emotive. They knew the evidence was weak and they needed support and guidance.

And I think now they recognise that these are the same young people they're seeing every day in clinic with the same aspirations, the same fears, the same thrills and spills of growing up. And yes, they have got the capability to see them. What do you think they were fearful of? Well, it is a polarizing area, as we know. Many of them had been told that their only role was to affirm the young person in their identified gender and refer them on to the Tavistock. And so just ordinary things like treating depression, treating anxiety, making a diagnosis of neurodiversity, all the things they would do for any other distressed child,

they weren't doing for these young people, which was exceptionalising them, it was treating them differently. So these young people were just getting a worse deal than other young people. And you are underlining there in your answer, but also have done in other places that you wanted clinicians and want clinicians to look at the whole child, not only their gender identity or expression, but this holistic approach will only work if services are available in adolescents' mental health, for example, to be able to refer them to these new clinics that you have outlined.

Looking at some of the figures, in March 2024, this is according to the Children's Commissioner, more than a quarter of a million children and young people were waiting for mental health support in England. And number one, I'm wondering, how can they work in the way you want them to if, in fact, there is this waiting list? And I do have a second part about that waiting.

Are you concerned about what the impact might be on those young people? So we are underinvested in adolescent services, in all mental health services for young people. And, you know, there are multiple initiatives to try and address that gap. But this particular group were sitting on a sideline waiting list that didn't have the mix of staff that they needed. So, yes, all young people are waiting too long, that is true, but these young people should not be more disadvantaged than the rest. But if we can get services right across the piece, then we can get them right for this group. The bigger problem

obviously needs a lot of careful thought about how we make this a more attractive area for young doctors and psychologists and other staff to come into. Do you think it's not? I think that it certainly can be, but when you have shortfalls in staffing, then you can get into a vicious cycle where that's very hard for the staff in post because they're having to work so hard. But I think it can be a fantastically interesting, I'm not talking now just about gender services, I'm talking about services for young people with physical and mental health problems. It can be an incredibly rewarding area to work in. And so I hope I might be able to do a pitch to attract young professionals into it. People want to get in touch 84844. One big change for these clinics that you have mentioned, that are in the process of opening or being opened in the future is that they won't be prescribing puberty blocking drugs and a ban on new prescriptions of puberty

blockers is now effectively in place across the UK. The only way these drugs can be accessed now in any of the four nations is via a clinical trial which is hoping to start recruiting participants in the new year. But children that are already on them, doctor, can stay on them? That's correct, yeah. So what do you say to children and parents who say, with those moves, you have withdrawn gender-affirming health care? So puberty blockers are only one part of care.

But they have been a part that has been a large part of the discussion. They have been a disproportionate amount of the discussion because actually the evidence doesn't show benefit for the majority of young people who go on them. And so in some senses, they have been oversold to young people as being the thing that is going to make them feel dramatically better. The commonest age for young people to go on puberty blockers at the Tavistock was 15, by which time they were most of the way through puberty. And so it might have been better to start thinking about whether masculinising and feminising hormones were the right thing for them. But as many young people felt worse on puberty blockers as felt better. But what are we looking at there when you say these figures of people feeling worse or feeling better?

What studies are we looking at? What numbers are we looking at? What's the evidence? So the studies are very limited, actually. There was an initial study in the Netherlands, which showed a small increase in mental health well-being. But the UK study, which had less than 100 young people in, just didn't reproduce those results. There may certainly be a small number of young people who might benefit from puberty blockers. We just don't know who they are, and we don't know whether the harms outweigh the benefits in other young people.

And if I was pitching any other drug to you to give to children with that kind of data, you'd say, no way, I'm not giving that to my child based on that evidence i want better evidence and that's what we're trying to achieve with the study so these are for children that are under 18 at the moment that is the ban that is in place um and a direct statement to those that are angry that these drugs have been withdrawn? Well, they've not been withdrawn. If clinical staff feel that a young person may benefit from them, they will go into the study. A clinical trial.

The clinical trial. And what I would say is we have evidence from other areas of medicine that people who are in clinical trials actually do better than people who aren't. We know that from cancer because you look after them very assiduously and very carefully, the follow-ups are very careful. So actually young people won't be disadvantaged by going into a trial. We'll just get better information for those coming behind. But for any of those right now who want to go into that clinical trial, will there be enough spots?

Yes, I mean, there will be. There's no limit. In fact, you know, on the contrary, the more young people who go into the trial, the better information you can get. A couple of other questions. Can children access puberty blocking drugs privately or abroad now? They can access them abroad. Obviously, the government is in consultation about making the ban permanent. So I don't want to comment further on that, on the implications of that in this country at the moment because it's a live consultation. You mentioned about a holistic approach to the child, asking clinicians to really be taking that into consideration when treating them. But do the alternatives to puberty blockers, let's say cognitive behavioural therapy

or medications for depression or anxiety, is there an evidence base for that, that it works in this context? Yeah, so what we know is that there are evidence-based treatments for depression and anxiety that actually do work and these young people haven't been getting them because they've been sitting on a waiting list, often getting no help at all. We don't know about the evidence on psychological therapies

specifically to help with gender-related distress. And so for that reason, I've said it's just as important that we research the non-medical interventions as the medical interventions. You feel that they cannot do harm? That we've got no evidence that there's any harm. In fact, the team at York did a systematic review of psychological therapies and nobody deteriorated on them.

There were some small improvements, but they weren't good enough samples to extrapolate from about what you should do in the future. Your review met with resistance from some clinicians that were working in the field of gender identity. There was, for example, a study into outcomes for young people that wasn't possible because of a lack of cooperation from those clinicians. Do you feel that resistance is still as strong as ever? Well, I understand that you're talking about the adult clinics.

We needed the cooperation of the adult clinics to look at follow-up data on these young people growing into adulthood. And subsequently, I understand that they have now expressed a willingness to cooperate with that research. So I'm very much hoping that that can now go ahead. Let me move to the British Medical Association, the BMA. I want to get your reaction to their decision to conduct their own evaluation of your review. Well, I found the BMA position puzzling because they haven't actually said what it is they object to about my recommendations. I mean, do they object to more services? Do they object to better training?

Do they object to better research? Do they object to run-through services so children don't get lost between children and adult service? So they haven't specifically said what the problem is. Well, this is what I have read from the BMA chair of the council, this professor, Phil Banfield, this is from September, says with the review, the BMA is of the council. This is Professor Phil Banfield. This is from September. Says with the review, the BMA is not aiming to replicate the CAST review. The chair of our task and finish group has set out to council

how we will listen to those with lived experience, either as patients or as clinicians, consider the link between evidence and recommendation and compare the recommendations with the actions or strategies that have arisen from them. So when they talk about listening to those with lived experience, we spoke every four to six weeks with the main support and advocacy groups. We ran through them 18 focus groups with children and young people.

Those results are available on our website of what children and young people. We had all those results are available on our website of what children and young people thought they wanted more holistic services, they wanted better trained professionals, they wanted people who respected them. We had qualitative research, which looked at experiences, not just of children and young people, we spoke to young adults through the quality research. So we've certainly done what the BMA say that they're going to do, but they've not got four years to do it. So how does it make you feel when you hear that they're planning a review of your review? Well, obviously, they need to proceed with that. But I hope that they take a balanced and careful approach and don't just cherry pick, you know, a small part of the experience

and the evidence. Sorry, I interrupted you. Yeah, no, because otherwise it won't be a meaningful review. That's your fear? Well, we'll wait and see. The BMA had previously called for a pause in implementing recommendations, as you may know, but our listeners may not, and said it wanted a ban on puberty blockers for under 18s, which we've been discussing, to be lifted.

Then a thousand doctors wrote an open letter opposing this. From your perspective, does this matter, this conversation within the BMA? It has an impact in terms of the fact that we're talking about it, but does it matter in terms of what's happening? No, because the government and NHS England are fully supportive of the review. It's being implemented. Today, children are walking into those new centres and being seen. So in that sense, I don't think it matters.

The BMA's source of information were some online sources, mainly from the US, and those were not peer reviewed. So I think that if one's thinking about evidence-based care, they haven't produced any evidence that the review should be stopped. Are you concerned, however, because we talked a little bit previously about the resistance to some of what you were doing, if, for example, clinicians, doctors are against what the recommendations are, couldn't that have a real life impact?

Well, there'll always be a spectrum of opinion in medicine. That's the way of the world. But I think the difference between the BMA's position and mine is that I've spoken to hundreds of doctors as well as other clinical staff both during the course of the review and since the review and the vast majority of those people in national meetings and in one-to-ones and in work groups are really supportive of the approach so I feel that those who take issue with it are in a relatively smaller minority within the medical profession. You're a retired honorary consultant paediatrician. Are you still a member of the BMA? I'm no longer a member of the BMA because as a retired doctor, it's not really relevant for me.

Picking up on some of the issues that we have spoken about you might have seen the journalist linda lydia paul green excuse me writing in the new york times in august she talked about your your review and she said it seems to have a clear paramount goal making living life in the sex you're assigned at birth as attractive and likely as possible whether cass you want to wants to acknowledge it or not, that is a value judgment. It is better to learn to live with your assigned sex than to try and change it.

That's her characterisation of your review. Do you think that's a fair comment? No, look, if you have an enduring trans, long-standing trans identity, then the costs to you of medical treatment in terms of any side effects or any negatives of the medical or surgical interventions are trivial compared to how difficult it would be to not be able to live in your identified gender. So for those people, it is absolutely crucial that they get the intervention, the clinical interventions that they need and that

they want. The problem in children and young people is that they're in a dynamic state of development. And we just don't know which way they're going to go in adulthood and if they go down the wrong pathway for them then the costs in terms of medical intervention are you know gravely heavy to bear when some of those effects are irreversible so it's about getting the right outcome for every single person. But every single person, I mean, do you worry about those children that aren't able to access or feel even this conversation and this review is stunting where they want to go? So the aim of the review, and we are really clear about this at the outset,

is not to say what being trans is or isn't. It's not about withdrawing healthcare. It's actually about trying to enhance our healthcare to make more care available. But we are on a journey on that, and I can't pretend that all the services are going to be up and running overnight. Of course they're not. But the idea is that you should be able to access care more quickly and closer to home. We have a way to go. What's the impact been on you? For the most part, I have been really pleased to have done this piece of work. I've met some fantastic people from

all sides of the debate, some courageous people, both those who are now living successful adult lives as a trans man or woman or non-binary. I've also met some brilliant clinicians and academics. So it's been a really fulfilling experience. It's been disappointing that there has been the disinformation. There should be healthy debate, but the disinformation has been disappointing. Which I think you're referring to some that came out before your report was released that you feel was incorrect about how the study and review was conducted. But, you know, I did read that you were advised

not to take public transport at one point due to security concerns. Yeah, that was just in the very early stages, but it's not been a problem since I got here on the train today. You say with a smile. Do come back and talk to us a little bit further as this conversation continues and as these clinics open and perhaps

we'll look at the progress then. I'd love to. Dr Hilary Cass, Baroness Cass, thank you very much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Thank you. Now to a woman with a career that has spanned decades, entertaining us through so many memorable characters. She was Candice Marie in Nuts in May, Beverly in Abigail's Party, Mrs. Bennett in Pride and Prejudice and Pamela in Gavin and Stacey. It is, of course, Alison Stedman, one of our best loved actors. She won an Olivier Award for The Rise and Fall of Little Voice. She's just published her memoir Out of Character, so I feel I've been getting to know her even better through the decades as she joins me now via Zoom. You're very welcome, Alison. Hello, good morning. What a career, what a life. How has it been with this book, creating this book, and looking back on all you have achieved?

Well, it's been great. And a lot of people have said to me, oh, did you keep a diary? Is that over the years? I've never kept a diary. And for some reason, just talking about different jobs, it's all still there in my mind. I think because they were such amazing experiences. It doesn't go away.

I forget other things now. You know, I went back and watched Abigail's party at the weekend just to celebrate speaking to you today. What a character. Just loved her. Do you go back and watch your work i was wondering um not really um occasionally i've watched things but i'm i'm always so critical of myself when i watch myself on on screen um you know i'm thinking oh why didn't i do this or why did i wear

that and you know it could have been more this you know i'm'm thinking, why didn't I do this? Or why did I wear that? And, you know, it could have been more of this, you know. And so sometimes it's easier just to let it go. But, you know, I do have a great fondness for things like Abigail's Party and particularly Nuts in May. Because I loved playing that character, developing that character and being down in Dorset, you know, for weeks with Roger Sloman and Mike Lee. We were putting this, you know, all the story together and it was one of the happiest eight weeks of my life. How lovely. How did you develop those characters? I mean, Beverly for me, and we were talking about you this morning in the office, Candice Marie for another, they're works of art. Well, I, you know, I love observing people.

I love watching and listening. And even when I was a child, you know, I would be impersonating people, probably not very well. But I was, you know, it's always interested me for some reason. And when I was, say, in my bedroom when I was a child, I wouldn't get straight into bed. I'd be acting out something, you know, pretending I was, you know, or even when I was putting my dolls in their cot, you know, I'd be impersonating the lady next door who was Scottish. And I was fascinated by this accent that she had because it was different to everybody else, you know. And I think I've just enjoyed that. So the characters, you know,

developed like Candice Marie and Beverly were based on a real person. Oh. Yes, that character, you know, I sort of give it all the add-ons and then when you meet like for instance when candace marie was introduced to uh roger sloman who was playing keith and as we were working together our characters were developing as we were you know camping and going about whatever we were doing. And it's great fun.

And it's my favourite sort of work really is to improvise. How surreal must it be then? Because when you were a young girl, you used to imitate the Queen. But go, I mean, the narrative arc of your life and then you are meeting the actual Queen. And I'm just wondering, you know, do you ever realise that distance that you have travelled? Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, I, yeah, when I went to Buckingham Palace and, you know, the Queen was there. I mean, it was extraordinary because as a child, when I was 10, my aunt took me to London and I stood outside the palace and I was so impressed with this enormous building.

And I saw it must have been a maid or something pull one of the curtains across in one of the small rooms. And I could hardly breathe. I was so excited thinking I've seen somebody inside the palace you know and so standing outside looking again uh this time being allowed in and to meet the queen was pretty extraordinary yes it was so crazy and they are just that's just one of the memories that you bring up in your book you were born and grew up in liverpool um your accent has faded a little i think well it has but then you know I left Liverpool when I was 19 to go to drama school also we didn't have very strong accents I mean sadly I've lost both my sisters now but they were 10 and 12 years older than me and when we used to chat together their accents weren't strong at all. I think

the accent over the years has got stronger and stronger. I've read that. It's such an interesting phenomenon, right? And also, my mother was very particular. She would say, if I ever said, yeah, she'd say, it's not yeah, it's yes. You know, things like that. So he was always correcting me. And actually we had some elocution lessons when I was at my grammar school. So, you know, and also when I left drama school,

I didn't want to be typecast as a Liverpoolian girl. So that's all I would be able to play. I wanted to be able to play all sorts of things, you know. So I made sure that, I mean, for instance, when I was at drama school, I used to listen to the news and I would read the news a second behind the newscaster, you know. And I used to love doing that, all these silly things, you know. I said to a friend the other day, I said, I was just thinking,

I left drama school in 1969, and for all these years, and I'm now 78, I've been pretending to be other people. And that's the life of an actor, and it's really odd when you think about it. That there's often, what did I hear? That there's really three of you between you and your partner. There's another character that's often

in the house as well. I love that. I think you've been in training to be an actor since you were a little girl. But I'm wondering what your family thought when, because you were quite clear with your careers counsellor, I'm going to be an actress. Oh, yes. Well, my parents were very supportive.

I mean, you know, they really wanted me to go to drama school. And they were they were great, because when I got to drama school, there were so many students had fallen out with their parents because parents said, what, you're going to be an actor? What? You know, you can't do that. That's not a decent profession. You know, you've got to be a doctor, a lawyer or something, you know. But my parents weren't like that. I mean, even when I was sort of about 14 and I was impersonating Hilda Baker, my mum would say, oh, turn this television off. There's nothing on. Do Hilda Baker. My mum would say, oh, turn this television off, there's nothing on,

do Hilda Baker. And I'd run upstairs, you know, change immediately, put a fox fur on, a hat, and I'd come down and start doing Hilda Baker. And, you know, mum and dad would be laughing their heads off, so they were a great audience. You've done a few things that I was thinking, wow, quite risqué, particularly at the time. One of your first professional roles, the director asked you if you performed naked. You did. Oh, yes, that was in The Primer Miss Jean Brodie. It was on stage.

Yeah. Yeah, well, in those days, they'd give you a body stocking, which is basically like a pair of nyl can remember you know everyone flocking up to me saying did you seriously appear naked on set I was lying on a chaise longue and it was only a back view um but um but yeah I just thought you know but I do remember in the book that some paparazzo had managed to make his way up to the rafters to try and take a photograph. I say the more things change, the more things stay the same. I was thinking as I looked at that.

But another TV first, actually, the first lesbian kiss on TV in Girl, which I hadn't realised. And that is, you know, a historic moment that you're part of. Yeah. I remember in the 80s, there was a lot of publicity about, oh, this is the first lesbian kiss in a series. No, it isn't. You know, me and Myra Francis did that. And I can't remember where it was. It was Brookside. Yeah, Brookside, I think, was the show that many people thought it was. But no, you came first. And it was quite, I was quite nervous about it, I have to say, at the time. You know, so was Myra because, you know, again, it was it was the first first time.

But we had a director who was great, who just didn't make a fuss of it. Just said, OK, now they kiss, quick kiss, right. OK, so get on with the dialogue. And we built it up without it being, you know, a big thing. And the thing I was most worried about was my poor parents, you know, what their neighbours might be thinking or saying to them. And my mum did find it quite difficult initially and then it was repeated and she rang me and she said, oh, I've watched it again.

She said, the first time I couldn't really look. I haven't watched it this time. And she was fine about it, you know, but when you live in a suburban sort of area and all your neighbours know each other and all chitty-chatty, you know. You know, it must have been quite difficult for mum, really. Well, let's talk about some of the more recent, of course, iterations of roles.

Gavin and Stacey, you're currently filming the Christmas special We Had Ruth Jones Here Not So Long Ago. What has that role meant to you of Pamela? When I'm looking at you, actually, I'm like, you really do transform when you go into those various characters. Slightly different to the way I'm looking at you today. Well, we've literally just finished filming.

We finished on Monday night. There were many tears, I have to say, when we finished because, you know it's it's uh it's been a real experience over 17 years from when we did the first um series and you know it can't get better than that really I mean it has to go down as one of my most favorite fun jobs. Yeah. Did you predict, like when you picked it up for the first time, did you have a feeling that it was going to be something that was so beloved? Well, I knew when I was sent the first script, I was just sent one episode and I started to read it.

When I read the first scene with Pam and her little princess son, I just knew that the writing was going to be brilliant um and of course I knew Ruth and James from being in fact friends with them um yeah I mean it's the scene where she's got the cucumbers on her eyes and you know her son he goes all right mom says no I'm not actually. And she says, I've just seen a program where these little badgers die and the mother's crying. He says, Mom, I don't think badgers cry. And she says, I know what I saw. So great.

Such a classic scene. Straight away, I thought, oh, this is brilliant. And then as the scenes came along, scenes with Pam, you know, I mean, there have been some classic moments. There really has. It's been great. Well, we cannot wait to see you in that and many more things, I hope, as well.

Thank you so much for joining us, Alison. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Stedman, her memoir, Out of Character is out tomorrow and it spans the decades of this wonderful life and career. Hoping to see much more of you as well, whatever comes next, after Gavin and Stacey. Now, I want to turn to the second phase of a campaign

that is aimed at finding the names of unidentified women who were murdered or killed in suspicious circumstances. It is being launched. Operation Identify Me is what it's called. It's highlighting another 46 cold cases that European police are seeking to solve. BBC coverage of last year's appeal helped to identify a British woman that was Rita Roberts some 30 years after her murder.

I can speak to the BBC's Anna Hulligan. She's in The Hague. She's been speaking to the detectives involved. Welcome, Anna. Remind us a little bit more about this campaign. So it's all about finding the names of these unidentified, murdered, in most cases, women. And these women have suffered a double injustice.

They've been victims twice, so killed through an act of violence and then denied their name and death. So the campaign's about restoring a kind of small form of dignity, giving these women their names back. And who are some of the women in this phase? Well, limited details. So 46, as you said, in total. And before we go into the details, we should say that some people might find some of this distressing. So all of the cases are listed on Interpol's website, along with facial reconstructions and photos of any clues or personal items that were found with the bodies. So there's the case of the woman in the well. She was found in Belgium.

It's thought her body may have been there for a couple of years. That was in August 1991. She was wearing a beige-brown knitted cardigan t-shirt with black vertical stripes and an image of two surfers, three palm trees, and the text Sun Sea Surf. And she was wearing a plastic ring. There's the woman with the owl ring. She was aged between 25 and 40, found by the side of a road just north of Madrid. The woman with the artificial nails, aged between 14 and 24. She was found naked in a canal near the Dutch border. Her body was weighed down with weights.

You know, the list goes on and it just gives you, I mean, it's a reminder of the scale of violence that women are increasingly subjected to. It's a very grim reading indeed. There's a number of countries that are covered, Anna, as I understand it, with Interpol. What are they? Yeah, so it started with the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany. And it's just been expanded as part of the second phase of this campaign to France,

Spain and Germany and the whole campaign was initiated by Dutch police after they discovered a woman's body partially encased in concrete. It was found in a wheelie bin that was floating in a river near Amsterdam. We spoke to the detectives there last year and they said when they found her she looked like some kind of sand sculpture and it was at that point they thought you know what we need to expand this we need to join forces with colleagues across the continent because so often these days because of increased migration human trafficking often these bodies are found outside of their home countries and that makes the whole case of identification much harder because if someone isn't missing someone locally they don't go to the police and if a body is found and the police haven't been alerted it's much harder to make those kinds of DNA matches which are often required in these cases. Such sad sad stories. You mentioned the detectives there you have been that are

investigating the cases what else did they tell you? So this week I've been to two different locations where two of the unidentified bodies were found. I'd like to tell you about two of them. It is, as you say, so grim. So I was in Le Cellier, which is a tiny village in western France, earlier this week, and they took me to the spot

where a teenager's body was found. It was in a ditch by the side of the road buried under leaves she'd been there for months just lying undetected and among the few clues a pair of red shoes she was wearing two necklaces with wooden beads and a British 10 pence piece so initially detectives thought she may have been British or have traveled in in the UK but obviously she could have been given the coin or just found it but what I found so remarkable we went around this village we're knocking on doors speaking to neighbors and no one could remember anything and it's a tiny place and this was 40 years ago but still if a teenager's body is found

you would think it would trigger some kind of memory. But that's a kind of reflection of the fact that she probably wasn't local. She probably wasn't missed by anyone in the area. So it didn't have the kind of impact that police need when it comes to identifying these bodies. And then there was a Dutch case. So I went with detectives in a jeep to an isolated spot in the Dutch dunes, not far from where I am now, in a place called Vassenar, just on the outskirts of The Hague. I joined a forensic detective, Sandra Bassman, there. She took me up to the spot where they found,

she found a body lying more than 20 years ago, face down in the sand. She was lying here, face down, in the sand, wearing red shoes, shiny. So that was a bit odd. If the scenario would have been that she was laying there and somebody would have been with her and pressing the head in the sand, maybe, but I just don't have the evidence for it. But that's the thing with the dunes.

The wind blows and the sand washes away, so we don't have any evidence. The one thing she had in her pocket was three keys. You get an insight just speaking to these detectives of just how sophisticated the whole identification process has become. So isotope tests from a strand of hair. From that, they can determine where the victim spent the last five years of their life. With those keys, they trace one of them back to Germany. And the isotope tests also confirmed the victim probably spent some time in Germany. The strand of hair will give away details on the environmental factors they've been exposed to. Also it

shows how far they've come because in some of the earlier cases for example that the French case we were talking about that was in 1982 and in that case they aren't sure where the teenager with the red shoes where her remains are buried and so if a family member does come forward, it will be much harder for them to get the DNA to see if there is a possible match. Let me also turn to the last phase of this, because this is the second phase with Interpol.

There was a good outcome, if we can call that, in these grim stories following some BBC coverage. Can you tell us a little bit about that? The woman in question was Rita Roberts. Exactly. And that's what gives the detectives and the families some hope because of this positive outcome. So Rita Roberts was murdered in Belgium 31 years ago. We featured her story in BBC reporting of the first phase of Identify Me last year. Her family recognised her distinctive black flower tattoo. And her sister Donna is supporting this campaign because she wants other families to be reunited.

Rita Roberts, she was a British woman murdered in Belgium for years. Her family lived in this state of uncertainty. They thought maybe she'd gone off and got married. She was simply having a nice life and that's why she hadn't been in touch. Her sister Donna has been talking about what Rita was like and her reaction when she realised that her sister was dead after three decades of not knowing. Listen, Rita was a tough, independent woman and she took no nonsense. She stood up for her family and friends, but equally she was a joyful personality. I couldn't breathe. I had to sit down. My body just shook. I broke into tears. We're crying. I don't have all them thoughts and triggers. When they do come, I know where she is and she's

at peace. And that is most important. And I've been to the spot where she's actually buried. And it's incredible because even before she was identified detectives took such care of her remains and she has a beautiful resting place now with her name on the headstone and detective Sandra Basbank told me their motto in these cold case teams is never give up so that's the kind of thread underlying this whole campaign. And of course these taking place decades later. Just before we let you go, Anna, what do Interpol want people to do if they recognise one of these women

as they put the details that they have so far forward to the public? To contact them, to simply come forward and contact them. These black notices were historically just circulated internally within Interpol's international network of police forces, but they need the public help. They need the public's help to look at those items and see if it triggers any kind of memory, any recognition. And if so, get in touch with Interpol via their website. Anna Holligan, joining me from The Hague today. Thank you so much for speaking to us on Woman's Hour.

A little earlier, I was talking about Miranda Hart, who got married for the first time at the age of 51. Many of you have responded. Hello, Woman's Hour. Congratulations to Miranda.

Wonderful news. But she is a young bride. I retired at 60 after a busy and happy career. Met my adorable partner at 57 and we married when I was 63. We are total fans of old love. Part two of my life is full of love,

companionship and optimism. That's Lizzie getting in touch. Let me see. My name's Mandy. I live in Norwich. Having spent my 20s, 30s and 40s determinately unmarried at the age of 54,

I met and married my husband of six years. Miranda alluded to there being a sense of joy and completeness about meeting and marrying at a much later stage of life and I feel that too. Lots more coming in. Right, we'll read another couple of those. But first I want to speak to the

Umbrian electro-pop musician Frankie Archer, who has performed at Glastonbury and the BBC Proms, has been featured on Later with Jules Holland, been championed by Tastemakers at BBC Radio 2 and Six Music and named the one to watch. You're the one to watch, Frankie.

I am. Apparently. So you have a new EP that you've released. It's Pressure and Persuasion. And you're telling the stories of four young women and girls from centuries past who navigate the same expectations that are put on women today. Good to have you with us in our Woman's Hour studio.

We want to talk about all the things that you are delving into. You've got a current UK headline tour as well. You're going to be performing one of the tracks, Elsie Marley, for us as well. So I'm looking forward to that. But tell me a little bit about your inspiration. There seems to be everything from Hannah Peel to Bjork. Yeah, well, it is quite varied. And thanks for for having us by the way. You're very welcome. I guess I

first started playing music I played fiddle and I did a lot of very trad just fiddle tunes for years and years and years but alongside listening to just like pop you know what what most kids growing up listen to and I fell very deeply in love with lots of electronic music and electronic sounds as well so I kind of let those things percolate for a while and then it's turned into this sound which I'm calling electro folk for you know short and sweetness. Northumbrian electro folk. Yeah Northumbrian electro folk for, you know, short and sweetness. North Umbrian electro folk. Yeah, North Umbrian electro folk. If you want to go further, it seems to be feminist North Umbrian electro folk as well, especially with this current EP

that I'm dealing with the stories of four different women like you say. Well, let's talk about that. So girlhood, womanhood, the notion of having to behave or conform or act in a certain way why is that a driving force?

So I didn't kind of set out to, I didn't think oh I'm going to write a feminist electoral folk EP, I didn't intentionally collect and work on songs that were about or from women, it just seems to be what I did pick along the way so I think it's just kind of resonated with us and the stories from

different women and what they've been through 350 years ago or 250 years ago whatever there's something in that that's still relevant now there's some of the same kind of societal attitudes which are still the same now um so i think that's what resonated with us and that's what's led to this collection of songs um electro folk i mean how would you explain it how would I explain it I think the the soul of the traditional music is deeply still there it's just kind of like garnished it's got the body of electronic music we'll say that the soul's the tradition the body's the electronic music so when I'm arranging and composing I always start with the traditional lyrics and or melody that That's the absolute, you know, that's the base point. Yeah, and then I just sit there and wait for the wacky ideas to come.

Well, Elsie Marley is what you are going to perform for us. Tell us, who is she? What's it all about? Who's Elsie Marley? Well, that's what the song says. Do you ken Elsie Marley? Which means, do you know Elsie Marley? Do you ken Elsie Marley, hinny? The lassie that sells the barley. So she was about in the 1700s. And as the story goes, Elsie Marley's grown so fine, she won't get up to feed the swine. She lies in bed till eight or nine.

So she's kind of an inspiration, really. It seems like she was born into some kind of um obligation of doing a certain type of work but she ended up being kind of a local celebrity she had lots of gossip and she was I think like a landlady and she used to just entertain people she got showered with gifts so yeah for me she's kind of realized she's too fine for the kind of work she was born into, which has carved out a new enterprise for herself, which is being an entertainer. And so kind of pushing away all the stereotypes that she was expected to conform to. And I'm

looking forward to listening to her. But with them, also just as you speak there, how important is it to get across the Northumbrian part of you um it's it's deep in me identity definitely um a lot of people say that one of the first things that they notice about my music is my accent which comes through I can't really sing in any other way it seems like not authentic. So yeah, it's me. It's how and where I grew up. And it's like, it's so rich, full of stories and traditions.

And also the Geordie accent, you don't really hear it represented so much. So I think that's really important to get across as well. Right everybody's going to want to hear you singing so go on get up

there and you're going to perform for us Elsie Marley and I should also let you know that Frankie is on her own Headline UK

tour I mentioned that briefly but she does have a London show as well supporting the last dinner party it's all very exciting stuff.

Thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio and for ending this edition of the programme. I do want to let people know that Anita will be here tomorrow when she'll be joined by Nina Cherry. Yes, winner of two Brits and a Grammy Award nominee. The Swedish singer, songwriter, rapper and producer first achieved global success in 1988 with the hit Buffalo Stance.

May I remind you? And the world set up as she made her Top of the Pops debut. The gold bra, the gold bomber jacket, gloriously seven months pregnant. So that's one to listen in for, among others. Marriage. Here's another one, Carrie from Shirley. I got married at the age of 54.

I had been in long-term relationships in the past and even had kids, but something stopped me making that leap into marriage. Thinking back, I think I knew that the relationships were not right. I met my husband online, Tinder. We immediately clicked. I'm naturally shy, but he brings out a confidence in me that I didn't know I had. We even sang to each other on our first date. It was Friday I'm in Love by The Cure, which became the first dance at our wedding. I love him with all my heart. That's Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Cafe Hope on BBC Radio 4. By the time I'd finished these 100 meetings, I'd raised £50,000. I'm Rachel Burden, welcoming you into a virtual coffee shop where I chat to people looking to improve the lives of those around them.

It's about tackling isolation and loneliness. Engaging in conversation with people, you know, can make a massive difference. Amazing individuals trying to make the world a better place. It's a real gift. Cafe Hope from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.