Woman's Hour - Dr Katalin Kariko - Nobel Prize winner, latest on Israel Gaza, Pelvic pain and pain in sex, The International Day of the Girl.

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

We heard reports last night from Israel that a massacre had taken place at the weekend in Kibbutz Kfar Aza. Women and children were among the dead and we were told that beheadings had happened too. A group of journalists were taken to the scene by Israeli soldiers. Emma is joined by Bel Trew, Chief International Correspondent for the Independent, who was one of the journalists. And, focusing on women's lives in the region, Emma speaks to Adele Raemer, who survived an attack on her home, and we hear extracts from journalist Plestia Alaqad in Gaza, who sent her audio diary to the BBC. Dr Katalin Kariko's work has had a major impact on people's lives around the world. She tells Emma how the mRNA technology she was working on for decades helped the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech covid vaccines come to be. Now Dr Kariko has been awarded a Nobel Prize. She's a biochemist, Professor at the University of Szeged in Hungary and along with her colleague Professor Drew Weissman, who is at the University of Pennsylvania, she won the prize for the category of Physiology or Medicine.It’s one of the things we’re most embarrassed to talk about – pain when having sex. This is something that Professor Katy Vincent, academic gynaecologist, and Dr Lydia Coxon, researcher in Pain in Women, are hoping to change. They join Emma alongside BBC presenter Sophie Law to talk about an open panel they held to try and get women to talk about their pelvic pain, and address the taboo around talking about periods, sex and women’s pelvic health. Since 2011, October 11 has been declared by the UN as International Day of the Girl Child to recognise girls' rights and the unique challenges girls face around the world. This year Women of the World (WOW) Festival has launched the Young Leaders Directory, inspiring activists from across the world campaigning on topics such as education, period poverty and climate justice. Emma is joined by two young women, Marwa Shinwari from Afghanistan and Ain Husniza from Malaysia to discuss their passions and hopes for the future.Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. In reports last night from Israel, we learned of a massacre committed at the weekend in Kibbutz Kfar Azar where women and children were murdered by Hamas. And we learned that beheadings happen too. It is news that has shocked and traumatised people around the world. In a speech last night, the US President Joe Biden condemned what he called an act of sheer

evil from Hamas. On today's Woman's Hour, we are continuing to focus on women's lives in the region. And shortly, you will hear from Belle True, a correspondent who was one of the journalists taken to that scene of that massacre. You'll also hear from a Gazan woman still in Gaza and keeping a video diary shared with the BBC as the blockade continues preventing all supplies getting in. And this morning, it's been reported that Gaza's only power plant will run out of fuel in a matter of hours. And you will hear from an Israeli woman, a 68-year-old, who survived a Hamas attack on her home in a kibbutz

and has now fled to safety. The overall death toll is more than 2,000. As ever, if you want to get in touch with me here on Women's Hour, you know the number, I hope, by now, but if you don't, the number is 84844 to text. You can email me through the Women's Hour website, on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or there's a WhatsApp option.

You can do a message or a voice note on 03700 100 444. Also on today's programme, women's health and how it intersects with pleasure and pain. We look to the future of female activism with girls raising their voices around the world. And we'll hear from the woman whose research has changed all of our lives and bagged her a Nobel Prize. But first, in reports last night from Israel, we heard of a massacre committed at the weekend in Kibbutz Kfar Azar, where women and children and men were murdered by Hamas. We also learned that beheadings happened. How did we learn such information? From a group of journalists who were taken to the scene by Israeli soldiers?

Belle True, chief international correspondent for The Independent, was one of them. Belle, welcome to the programme. Good morning. Thank you for having me on the programme. What did you see? We were taken to this community that's very, very close to the Gaza border with Israeli soldiers who were still apparently engaging in gun battles with possible lone militants. There was a chatter of gunfire as we arrived. And what we saw was images of devastation, homes which were smeared with blood,

homes that had been destroyed possibly in rocket attacks, blood smeared children's toys and carriages, and also a lot of bodies. The soldiers there were still collecting the bodies of Israeli civilians and laid on the ground were the bodies of members of Hamas who clearly had instigated the attack. So it was a pretty galling sight to see. And, you know, it comes off the back of multiple different reports about atrocities that have been committed near the border with Gaza. What was it like being there, being a witness?

That's, of course, what your job is. But there's um a whole other level to that in that particular scenario i imagine it's difficult because it's um i mean it felt very ghostly um it felt very um sort of discombobulating almost because there are no civilians anywhere their homes are completely empty all you have is bodies littered on the ground you know the way that I described is that the entire town smelt with death there's also soldiers who are picking up bodies and you know you the first I guess emotion is just feeling overwhelmed and then comes the feeling of responsibility because as a journalist you need to accurately report so you know we had reports

about beheadings but we obviously couldn't independently verify them and I think that's really important to say because there is so much emotion and around this subject at the moment but I think for me it was just a feeling of deep deep sadness because the scenes were so violent and because this has triggered what is like a horrendous situation in this part of the world and as you mentioned earlier we're going to hear from someone in Gaza you know civilians in Gaza are now under extremely heavy bombardment and under a full siege and that is you know very very alarming and it just looks like the future is going to be one of bloodshed. The strategy I was talking about this yesterday with our chief international correspondent,

Lisa Doucette, the strategy of taking hostages of, I believe, around 150, possibly more, has been one, again, to be a feature right now. And there was a report in The Times about Hamas leaders being split on whether taking women and children, because that's the focus for our particular programme, is the right one or not. And it's something that there's a concern apparently about, I'm again going off this report in The Times, potentially because it will not engender sympathy if women and children are taken and then they are being filmed and there's being some footage shared of that what do you know about the the hostage strategy and what can you

say and specifically about women so i've been speaking to family members of those who are believed to be hostages because they appeared in very chilling social media posts and also in other instances where the bodies haven't been found so they're assumed to be in Gaza because we don't have a full understanding of just how many people have been taken but from the eyewitness accounts of people that I spoke to in places like that music festival that was targeted on Saturday it appeared to be that they were essentially, it didn't seem to be a strategy per se. It doesn't seem to make any sense why they necessarily killed some people

in that music festival, but others. Why some families were taken hostage and kept alive from some of these communities and why others were killed. But I think from Hamas' side, I imagine that the reason to take these hostages is to force some kind of prisoner swap with the number of Palestinian prisoners who were in detention in Israel. But for now, the families are obviously extremely, extremely alarmed. Gaza is being heavily bombarded by Israel.

There are concerns that those hostages might die in those bombardments. Hamas has also threatened to start executing concerns that those hostages might die in those bombardments. Hamas has also threatened to start executing some of those hostages in response to the attacks on Gaza. It's very, very alarming. I spoke to one man whose two children, aged three and five, and his wife were taken hostages, and they appeared in a video that I was able to verify. He just said he can't. It's absolutely terrifying for both his children and his wife to be taken. He doesn't know what's going to happen to them. So it's obviously a very, very, very disturbing and upsetting time. About the element of it being women and children, though, that were taken, I recognise you might not be able to say if there was a strategy there and then about who was killed and who was not. But is that a strategy of who has been taken to try to take women and children?

Well, clearly, I mean, they clearly decided to take civilians, which I think is, you know, an indicator, basically, because they could have, you know, captured Israeli soldiers, but they deliberately, clearly deliberately chose to take civilians with them. I think, I mean, I can't comment on Hamas' strategy because I just don't know what's going through their mind, but clearly there was an effort to go for civilians,

including women and children, perhaps to force the hand of Israel more to encourage prisoner swaps because it's so emotive. But yeah, it's hard to say exactly why it's just I think it's very pertinent they decided not just to go for members of the military but to go for civilians and and that's the point to that we can make without any other knowledge at the moment on without comment or strategy insight of Hamas just to go back because we're going to hear um from an Israeli woman we're going going to hear from a Gazan woman,

and I'm going to come back to you as well if I can, on what you've also been reporting on in Gaza and who you've been able to talk to. But just from a personal point of view, if I may ask you, being taken by soldiers to the site of a massacre, to a kibbutz, kibbutz Kfar Azar, and being able to see what you described as and being part of a sort of ghostar, and being able to see what you described as a, and being part of a sort of ghostly atmosphere and being able to see what you were able to see, and then producing the

reports you've produced, which I've looked at this morning. What is that like for you in this role? There is an immense responsibility, if I'm honest, huge, huge, for journalists to get the right angle the right focus to do justice to the truth of the story so for me the biggest biggest thing that impacts me is making sure that the reporting that I put out there is as responsible and accurate as possible and that is very difficult in the fog of wars so I think for me the biggest response is of course the initial shock of seeing different scenes but I've been covering conflict now for over a decade so you know I'm well versed in in in seeing these kinds of things but I think the biggest emotion I feel is one of immense responsibility this is a deeply

complicated conflict that has gone on for decades it didn't just start on Saturday it started decades and decades ago and you know there is suffering happening on both sides right now and so for me going in to see those scenes it is important I do justice to the horror that we witnessed and it's also important that I put it in the correct context and also important that I make sure that the civilians in Gaza also have a voice too. So for me, it's really just one of enormous responsibility that I only can hope to do justice to. Beltri, stay with us. Chief International Correspondent for The Independent, who was part of that group of journalists reporting on that particular situation, that massacre in that

kibbutz over the weekend. Now to the Israeli Adele Ramis, 68 years of age, who usually lives in kibbutz Nirim along the border of Gaza. She survived the attack on her home this weekend and has fled to another part of Israel. I spoke to her just before coming on air and started by asking what happened to her in her kibbutz. My grandchildren on kibbutz Nirim were in the house with their father. My daughter and son-in-law are separated. So they were in the safe room with their father.

And he heard the terrorists inside his house. He told the children, go under the blanket, open the safe room door, went out, closed it behind him and shot the terrorists that were in his house. They were a meter away from him. And he saw the others running out. He tried to call the others. He realized that there were too many other armed terrorists nearby. So he turned around and went back into the, into the safe room and was with them. I almost lost three of my grandchildren on Saturday. That close. We were that close.

They tried to infiltrate my house. Also, the slots on my window were broken for some reason, dumb luck or divine intention. They turned away. But we all lost so many people or almost lost so many people. And this can never, never happen again, no matter what it takes. I will never apologise for my army now to do anything it needs to, to keep us safe. We learned last night through the work of journalists, including one of our journalists here at the BBC, of what had happened in Kibbutz Kfar Zah, where Israeli soldiers have found the bodies of women and children,

including some of those decapitated. I wanted to ask you your reaction to that news. What can any normal person's reaction be? It is horrific. The world is now seeing the enemy that we are up against. These are not humans. These are not civilized people that can be spoken to, that can be. I'm the first person that says things need to be dealt with through diplomacy. I'm the first person that all these years I've said this can't be solved by weapons. This has to be solved through diplomatic means. My DNA changed on Saturday.

Our DNA changed of this whole country. Our DNA changed on Saturday. The Jewish people are about doing good, about helping the world, about improving the world. But our DNA has been forever altered. After the Holocaust, we said never again. But I can't tell you how many friends and neighbours I have lost in one day. The focus on women and children by Hamas is something that is also being reported on, a part of this. And with the details that have emerged from what was shown to journalists yesterday,

I wanted to ask for your view on that as an Israeli woman, as a woman who lives so close to Gaza. My country is going to have to do something, and my army is going to have to do something very, very, very serious and effectively to make that whole area safe because people are not going to come back to live in a place where terrorists can infiltrate so easily. part of Israel and you as I understand you run a Facebook group you have communities and dialogue with people along the border of which you share. Yes. It must be very hard as well for you to think about what is going on with those people that you know I didn't know if either of you have if you've been in touch with each other? Has there been an ability to have that dialogue? Because I also think it's important to be clear who you're talking about when you're extremely distressed and angry.

A woman that I'm in touch with in Gaza today, I last communicated, we last communicated on Saturday morning. On Saturday morning, she wrote me and she asked me, how are you? How is the situation? And I said, very worrisome. And then she asked what's happening. I said, we don't understand the thing. And I wrote to her, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. And I pray for your safety. And then she wrote me yesterday. I asked her, how are you? She said, the situation is very dangerous. She did not read my response. Can I ask about your friends? I mentioned about, in particular, women and children being taken as hostages. Men have also been taken too. Men have been killed.

Israeli men have been killed as well. Are any of your friends hostages at the moment? What has happened to your, if you don't mind me asking that? Can you second? Of course. I have a very close friend. I've known her for almost 40 years. Her name is Judy Weinstein-Hage.

She's Israeli like me, American and Canadian citizen. She came to Israel in her early 20s. The sweetest, kindest woman you could ever hope to know. An English teacher. She worked mostly, she's 70 now. She worked mostly with children with special learning difficulties. She taught mindfulness in our high school. She taught English through puppets.

She lives in Kibbutz Niros. I won't talk about her in the past. She lives in Kibbutz Niros. On Saturday morning, when all of the rockets began, we lost contact. So they are missing. We don't know anything about them. We haven't heard them since.

I tried contacting her at 10 o'clock on Saturday because all of a sudden I remembered, wow, Judy was outside when this was happening. I wonder if she got home okay. We had no idea of the horrors that were going on. We were hiding in our safe rooms. We knew that the terrorists were in our kibbutz. We heard Arabic outside. We heard people shooting all around us.

My dear friend Judy, I'm still hoping that there will be some sort of situation where there will be a hostage release and we will find that she is alive and well and I'll be able to hug her again. Adele Raymer speaking to me there. We've been hearing this morning that a Palestinian UN envoy has said Israel is using starvation as a method of warfare as the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip gets worse. The journalist Plestia Al-Akkad has been recording an audio diary for the BBC from Gaza. So it's around 12pm right now, now still no electricity no internet my battery is at two percent my parents are still asleep so yeah that's the update for now people in the street are calling for ambulance but there is no ambulance here is the window yeah literally the whole window is down فقط جميع المفتاحات تسقط

نستطيع سماع صوت الأطار نحن جميعاً نجد في منزلنا المقابل لا يوجد الانترنت ولا الإلكترونية حتى الآن حوالي 7 وقت فقط لا نعرف ماذا يحدث في العالم نستمع فقط لبناء لا أحد يعرف شيئاً فقط No one knows anything, literally. Our house is basically burning behind my back. Okay, it's during work times, all the neighbors, they just keep their doors open so you can just enter your neighbor's house. It's okay. For my neighbors, they didn't evacuate as well.

They have their windows down. Here are their windows. And here is the family. They're gathering all together, also in a place far away. I was trying to explain things but I think you can hear them now. I got you on my parents. We're inside the house right now and literally we can't breathe. That's the view from the window and I can't keep it open. That's the view from the balcony.

There is literally no view. You can't see anything. Blasia Al-Aqad recording that video diary in Gaza. Still with me is Belle True, Chief International Correspondent for The Independent, who's reporting on this situation. Belle, it's very powerful and important to hear both of those women's voices, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. It's chilling, actually, to hear it. It's very, very emotional to hear their responses. And it's, for me, just makes me feel very desperate

about the situation because it just feels like peace is going to be an impossibility now. We heard from, I mean, it was quite hard to hear at times, which I think is also important to hear, but from Plestia there recording in Gaza, and she talks about it being difficult to breathe and what people can't see.

There is also a video version, I should say, because it is a video diary that we've taken some of the audio from uh the people are wearing face masks where they can to to try and breathe a bit easier because uh this is this is the reality of actually living within there right now yeah I think it's really important to understand what the situation is like for civilians in Gaza and there to be a separation between anger towards what Hamas has done and what people in Gaza, normal people's families, children are experiencing. There are over 2 million people in Gaza, half of them are children. The Gaza Strip is only 42 kilometers long and 12 kilometers wide and for the last 15-16 years

it's been under a blockade by both israel and egypt um ever since hamas violently took over the strip and that has meant that even before they started medical supplies for example were low and electricity was only coming in four hours a day now that there's a total siege on gaza as announced by israel which rights groups say could actually be a violation of international law because it's collective punishment. That means that people now don't have access to electricity. Water will soon stop as well because of the electrical pumps. Medical supplies are in really low amounts. I was talking to a doctor, a British Palestinian doctor, a surgeon who's there. He said

that they're running even out of anaesthetic. And for the people, they've got nowhere to go. I spoke to an Israeli military official who originally told me that they should get to Egypt by Rafah. And then he corrected himself later because Rafah border crossing is closed because it was reportedly bombed multiple times by Israeli airstrikes. So people in this heavily densely populated area cannot move. And this is what's so heartbreaking. And this, as a journalist, I feel is really important point to make, because in dehumanizing language used against Hamas, if that's applied to the entire Palestinian population, then that may justify actions which could severely damage civilians lives and we and as you know international law says you cannot hold an entire people collectively responsible so for me

personally right now it is really horrendous you know to have to have the situation where like we heard from adele you know she's in floods of tears because her best friend is missing. He potentially has been taken to Gaza, where there were the horrific scenes of slaughter, of children killed and women killed. And at the same time, civilians, you know, in Gaza who are, you know, as they say, cannot breathe. It's just nightmare upon nightmare at the moment. Beltrou, Chief International Correspondent for The Independent, thank you for taking the time to talk to us this morning and about what you have seen and what you are able to report. My next guest has had a major impact on our lives. mRNA technology she was working on for decades, which helped the Moderna and Pfizer and BioNTech COVID vaccines come to be, if I can put it like that. She'll tell us more, I'm sure.

Let me tell you who I'm talking about. Dr. Katalin Karikó, who has been awarded a Nobel Prize. She's a biochemist. She's a professor in Hungary. along with her colleague Professor Drew Weissman who is at the University of Pennsylvania, she has won the prize for the category of Physiology or Medicine. Good morning, congratulations, thank you for being with us today and I think it's an amazing opportunity to hear about your work which as I say has been going on for many many years long before the COVID-19 pandemic. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for inviting me. And I also don't get to talk to people, and certainly not women, who've won the Nobel Prize very often. And so congratulations on that front. Can I start by asking, how does it feel to be a Nobel Prize winner? Probably still is not settling. You know, I'm not really understand completely that I am a Nobel Prize winner. Just unbelievable. Did you get a call? How does it

come through? Did you take it seriously when you found out? Actually, it was 3.40 in the morning. Right now I'm in Hungary, but I was in the United States. And because my husband has a role in this maintenance in a big housing complex, so he always picks up the phone in the middle of the night. Maybe some boiler is broken or something. And he picked up the phone and I heard he was speaking in English but you know I was just not bothered by that because we were in America and and then he said oh this is for you and so he hand over the telephone and you know I was told but I was you know I couldn't

believe it that it is real maybe I thought that maybe just somebody's joking on me. And then, you know, then I was talking and they asked an interview, I sent a picture and they asked me something to an email address. And then when the email address was, you know, Nobel.org or something, Nobelprize.org, and then they call me back that received the photo, then I realised maybe it is true. Well, it's quite a funny time to get that call, I suppose, in the middle of the night. And then with that amazing information, I have heard that before, different time zones has meant people have been a bit confused when they receive the telephone call. But it is true, it has happened. And it's because of your work. And you've been doing this work a long time.

Tell us, mRNA, for those who do not follow this like you, what do we need to know and why has it had this impact? So we have to know that messenger RNA, not the science, it's not we invented, nature invented. In our cells, in every cell in our body there are messenger RNA present this is a blueprint for producing protein and you know our bodies from protein or this protein could be an enzyme producing some other material and this is how we exist and it was discovered more than 60 years ago, this messenger RNA, but it was so fragile that it very quickly degraded

after the protein is produced from this mRNA that it was difficult even a couple of years in the 60s, in the late 50s, they could not identify. They assumed that they had to have one because all of the genomic information is in the nuclei, but the protein is made in the other part of the cell. And they assumed, but they couldn't find. But when they found, you know, that, again, like, it took like 20 years to figure out how to make in a tube.

So this made, like, in 1984, that made possible that we can produce this kind of molecule, messenger RNA, and as we would like to have coding for different proteins. And that early on, like the 90s, many scientists started to make mRNA and try to use for vaccines or therapeutic purposes, but it was so little protein was produced so short period of time that most of the people just give up on that. But you I mean you've that's you've kept going with it and there was there was a desire to to try and have an HIV vaccine that was that was what was in the conversation around the time that

you're talking about and And then bringing us right up to the modern day, there's the relationship with the COVID-19 vaccine. I wonder what you can say about that, that us mere mortals can understand. Yes, it is important that although prior to the pandemic, this messenger RNA was already used for uh vaccines the same shape and form except that it coded for different proteins for um moderna already run for a cmb virus run for zika in you know and uh an influenza virus they already had vaccines but you know it was tested out on 200 people and not 200 million people. And people were not aware of that.

These were already tested in human trials. And it was just changing the template to produce an mRNA coding for different viral protein. It was just very easy because all mRNA is always from four different nucleotides and just the order of the nucleotides is different as they code for different proteins so it was already in the human trial for therapeutic purposes in 2018 for example. Were you surprised then not surprised but what was your reaction to then it being used to help with COVID? I mean, at that point, I was working at BioNTech and we already had an agreement with Pfizer. We already developed a vaccine for influenza.

That was our original goals. And that was we were ready for human trial in end of 2019 and so it was obvious that this is the way we should produce the vaccine for COVID-19. Yes it just must I'm just wondering from you how it feels to to have had a hand in that because it was such a scary time and it's still you know I need to remember this I hear from people who are still immunocompromised, you know, they are still living different lives. It's not over, far from it for a lot of people. But for a lot of people, your work has contributed to us being able to get back to some semblance of normality. Yes, you know, I take it that I contributed and many, many other, you know, thousands of scientists contributed to it. And for decades we will work on it.

And so, of course, I was very happy that it was so. I actually that based on prior data and even animal experiment, whatever virus we tested against, it was always so good, but so much better existed already. So it was not a surprise for me. And yet the same time, you know, in your career, you face skepticism. You faced people not always looking at the work in the way that we're looking and talking about it now. You've had to keep going. And I think especially for women working in your field, that's an important message to share this morning when you're talking about this. Exactly.

This is very important that when I was working on the RNA and I improved the structural element, other characteristics, I get better and better data more protein was produced so not just repeating just for not giving up for the sake of it but the rna became better and better and some other scientists also worked on it and so as a result of it now that the product was better so when people thought that i am not successful because, you know, I was demoted and I get, you know, difficulties, but I could feel the success because, you know, I was working at the bench in the laboratory and I was in full control and I was enjoying the work. And, yeah, so it is important that we focus on what we can change and people saying to us different things, but they don't know. And then I can hush hush all of this other, you know, naysayer and didn't pay attention on them. being of faculty quality this is during your work at the university of pennsylvania and and you've

said in previous interviews it was a particularly difficult week because you'd also just been diagnosed with cancer so you were having to to deal with certain things on a personal level um and yet i suppose you know i know we haven't got the time to go into all of that maybe you don't want to but uh you know that that must have been quite a moment then when receiving the Nobel Prize to think back to that time. Yes but again I focused on one or two person in who were in the laboratory who were in the position to support my salary because you know that's I would put an emphasis on because yes there were difficulties but there were like my one of my colleague at cardiology and paid my salary for seven years yeah and then you know david langer who was a student in the lab but he could convince the chairman to provide a laboratory and some salary the salary was you know

not much but it was enough so that i always emphasize those who cheered for me and not those who were negative. That's a good focus. So nothing specific to say to those who perhaps weren't backing you at this moment, apart from obviously waving the Nobel Prize under their noses occasionally, I'm sure. Yeah, so I emphasize those who are helping me and they will be there at the ceremony. I already invited them. When is the ceremony? Is it soon? It will be on December 10th for the Nobel Prize ceremony.

And I invited Elliot and David Langer already. They will be there. Great. Well, I hope you have a wonderful time at that ceremony with those who have supported you. And a huge thanks for explaining a little bit, a window into your research and work for us this morning. And, you know, for all that you have done, it's very good to talk to you. Congratulations again. Thank you very much. Listening there to a Nobel Prize winner. I can't say that every day, can I? Dr. Catalin Carrico.

And a statement here from the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Catalin Carrico and Dr. Drew Weissman are outstanding scientists whose discoveries help pave the way for developing the life-saving vaccines deployed in the global fight against COVID-19. The recognition of their important work with the Nobel Prize is deeply deserved. We acknowledge and are grateful for the valuable contributions Dr Carrico has made to science and to Penn University throughout her time here, including as a research assistant professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases and as a senior research investigator

in the Department of Neurosurgery and now as an adjunct professor in the Department of Neurosurgery. There's a lot of roles there and I'm getting familiar with university parlance and hierarchy a little bit in reading that aloud. But there you go, a statement from the university.

Well, going to more of a discussion point now, last night in Oxford, there was an event called Unwanted Pain and Wanted Pleasure. Another discussion in public, all about pain and discomfort when it comes to consensual sex, periods, and women's pelvic health. And all I had to do was mention this.

And already there was a message that came in from Jill who says, I hope things have changed over the last 40 years and sufferers, those in pain, those women in pain are not still being told the pain is imaginary. Maybe that was covered as well. Let me tell you more about this event. It was held as part of the Oxford If Festival, which is all about starting conversations and asking, what if? Joining me now, Sophie Law, my fellow presenter for BBC Radio Oxford, who was the host of the panel last night, Professor Katie Vincent, academic gynaecologist

who holds clinics for women experiencing pelvic pain, and Dr Lydia Coxon, a researcher in pain in women who puts on these types of events. A warm welcome to all of you. Sophie, though, I mean, I could almost let you take this away now because you can host it, but I'll let you be the guest for once, which you won't be used to. I never am. Why did you want to host this discussion last night?

Do you have a link to this? In a little way. So one of my friends works with Oxford EndoCare, which is the group putting on this event, who do loads of incredible work around endometriosis and research and women's pain in Oxfordshire. And also I'm fairly difficult to embarrass. And so when she was looking for someone to corral this, I mean, some of the questions, Emma, were a bit fruity last night. So she wanted someone to just kind of read it all out and not be embarrassed.

And I was like, go on then. There's nothing fruity on women's hour. We've had it all. You know, I was talking about constipation with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie only a few weeks ago. We can do it. What do you need? What was on the table?

Well, all sorts. I mean, that was what really interested me is that it was the different variations. So from like pain all the time that people are having to what happens if I have sex and then it hurts afterwards to emotional pain someone was asking last night um I have a really good time and then I burst into tears is there something wrong with me I'm experiencing emotional pain through this and then of course people who maybe like a bit of pain in the bedroom so there was the the whole plethora of of different topics and we got through a lot in an hour and a half it was fascinating I wish I could have come

to that um but we'll try and get some of it here if we can uh Katie good morning morning pelvic pain the reality of it how do you define it and and how common do we know it is? Yeah, so sadly, pelvic pain is incredibly common. So chronic pelvic pain, we would define as pain in the pelvic region or that you perceive as being in the pelvic region for three months or longer. But that doesn't have to be every day for three months. That could just be with your periods every month for three months or with sex every time for three months, for example. And about one in five women will experience some form of chronic pelvic pain in their life. Right. And that's quite a high number if you think about it. But although some people don't even know that they're having it, you know,

that's a kind of also quite a complicated part of it. Pain with sex, though, that was one of the specifics here. What can you say about that for anyone who's listening you know and they wouldn't even think to go to an event like this or maybe they've got questions and perhaps they're too embarrassed well again i think we don't have as much data about pain with sex as we do about pain with periods for example or pain with opening your bowels things that are still embarrassing but not quite so intimate. But the more we ask these questions, the more we hear them and the surveys that do go out again suggest that it's

about as common as any of the other types of pelvic pain. And what we were really hoping to do last night was to highlight the fact that it's not normal to have pain with sex and that lots and lots of different things that we can do about it and that if any message came out of last night it was to come and talk to someone, talk to your mum, talk to a friend, talk to a doctor and start the journey of moving things forwards. Dr Lydia Cox and listening to this I know that you want to contribute in terms of how people talk about this but also what did you learn last night? Oh, I think lots. There's lots of great takeaways.

I think one of the key things was buy lube, and lube is wonderful. Lube helps everything. But I think fundamentally, like Katie was saying, it's having those conversations. And it was really highlighting. So we had GPs, we had gynaecologists, we had a real mix on the panel,

and they all said, we talk about this all time and for you it's really it can be really embarrassing and it can be really difficult to have those conversations but for the doctors they're used to it there's probably not the first time today they've had those conversations so try and go there and have these conversations and if you have to have them bit by bit that's fine too but start the process and then they can start trying to help. You work as a researcher in this space, is that right? Yes, yes. So I'm a research scientist. So I try and understand why some people have pain,

what sort of is underlying the pain in chronic pelvic pain in general. And talking specifically about women, pain and sex, what do you know from your research? Well, I think, as Katieie said we don't know lots so it's definitely an area where we need we need more data because it's socially we don't talk about it so there's not there's limited funds for it there's limited access to data that's there's lots of issues with the data that we have but we know that it's really common we know that it's really going to impact people's lives and there's certain areas we really don't know much about so

adolescents for example young younger women we don't know much about what it's like for them having pain with sex we know they have sex but we don't know what their experiences are and we really need to drive that forward and it all comes from i think these sort of conversations so normalizing talking about sex and talking about pain with sex and although I love the fact that I'm a real solutions person if possible I love the fact you started with saying by lube uh because that that could really help some people if they genuinely either didn't know that or haven't heard anybody say that to them because you know advice is offered in so many walks of life but because of the difficulties around these sorts of conversations Lydia that you, you might not actually hear somebody say that.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's also the sort of stigma around these sort of things like, oh, do I need it? Do other people need it? Is it normal to have lube? Yes, it is, was the general message from all of the panel. Yes, use lube. Why not use it sort of thing. There are also myths, aren't there, Professor Katie Vincent, around this area and when maybe you might have problems in your life as a woman with sex and when you might not. I mean, what do you want to say around that and busting some of those myths?

Yeah, so I think it's really important and the advantage of these type events is that we can actually give proper information because we know that people often are embarrassed to come and have these conversations and so what they have access to is the misinformation that sadly is so widely available at the moment. I mean I think the key myths that we wanted to be sure we got across were that pain is not normal so we know that people think it's normal it's something they have to put up with as part of being a woman. And also that doctors are interested in your pain. So please come and talk to us. Lots of people express concerns that they might have their experiences dismissed,

or that they might be minimised in some way. But actually, we are interested and we would like to hear from you. I think it's also really important to understand that there are lots of different factors that can combine together to cause pain. And we might not always find something on a scan for example but just because we don't identify something doesn't mean that we don't then think it's in your head there are lots of other reasons physically why you might experience pain even if all your ultrasound scans are normal for example well the the i'm going to go back to sophie in just a moment but the language of pain is also quite difficult isn't it Lydia like how you actually describe what it is because it's quite unusual um that whole piece and I know there's been work done on that and not just

pain around sex but pain generally you know finding words that sound like they go with the pain yeah absolutely and it's so, I mean, everyone needs to experience pain of some kind, right? And sometimes it's achy, sometimes it's stabbing, sometimes it's shooting. And there's all these words about how it feels. Then there's all the words about how intense it is. Is it really severe? Is it quite mild? And then there's all the words about how you feel about it. So is it unpleasant? How does it make you feel really sad? Does it make you feel really angry or worried? And it's so, so complicated because there's so many brain regions involved in us feeling pain.

And because it's so complicated, it means it's really, really hard to research and really hard to understand. But one of the things we do know is that sometimes the way you describe your pain does match to the underlying things that are causing it so for example stabbing pain might be related to pain that's due to nerve damage for example yeah and there's things like that that can help if we can describe pain in a way that makes sense and fits with your just with how it feels for you it can help give an idea of what could be the underlying mechanisms and then what would help to treat it sophie did you have a as the host of this event last night did you have a favorite question or a favorite sort of point that you you marshaled i mean the one of the points was uh don't buy a pumpkin spice lube this autumn because um it should be plain as possible because novelty stuff is not good for

those areas emma but the other thing that really struck with me i know i never thought i'd hear those words or in fact say them on women's you've said them this is the place to say them and radio oxford obviously yeah but the thing that really struck me was keeping a diary because a couple of times we were talking about different stuff and when does it happen at the beginning at the end or does it happen with one partner but not another one and I said oh are you talking about sort of keeping a pain diary and they were like yes because when you finally get into the GP and as the guys were saying you know even though they are oh so down to earth and so approachable and what a panel they were last night you know when you get into the GP chances are you're going to be stressed.

And then they ask you these specific questions on something that might have happened three months ago. If you've got a little diary where it's all written down, you can go through it. And I thought, what a great tip. There you go, that and pumpkin spice. I didn't know that was a thing. I thought it was just like maybe a latte at this time of year.

I don't even drink coffee, but I'm freestyling now. Sophie Lord, thank you very much for putting us in the picture. Professor Katie Vincent and Dr Lydia Cox in there on the rhyme and reason, if there is any, around pain. I did promise you the voices of the future, the voices of now, the younger voices, because since 2011, today, October 11th, has been declared by the UN General Assembly

as International Day of the Girl Child to recognise girls' rights and the unique challenges girls face around the world. And there's a new Young Leaders Directory that's been put together by the Women of the World Foundation. The aim is to inspire young activists around the world to campaign on all sorts of topics, from education to climate

justice to period poverty. And I'm very happy to be say I'm joined on the line by two of these young women, Marwa Shonwari, who's 20 years of age from Afghanistan, now studying in London, and 19 year old Ayn Husniza, excuse me, from Malaysia, who's joining me from there. Both are part of this directory. I don't believe you have met um but this weekend uh for the first time you're meeting with and are going to be talking continue to talk to you with the other inspiring young women online who've been asked to take part in this so a warm welcome to you both uh Ayn if I could start with you what what's it like to to be part of this and be part of this family of young female activists? Hi, Emma.

Hello. Thanks. So first of all, I started my advocacy from when I was 17. And it started when during my physical education classes, my teacher decided to say very rude and inappropriate remarks, which the hashtag make school safer place movement a movement towards safety and inclusivity against anti-sexual harassment in school now i felt quite lonely in this journey so i felt that i had no one to really rely to so when i am included in the young leaders directory as i are more involved in the social advocacy circle I find that there's so many other girls out there just like me and I find it how inspiring to see their advocacy and activism all around the world itself. Yeah I mean it's it was a big step forward for you to begin that

conversation and you use social media to do so when when something as you say happened with your teacher um and what was talked about in your class that you you felt wasn't right yeah it it really um it really scared me which kind of like how can a teacher mention these things in class especially towards an academic setting where you shouldn't mention something that kind of of endangers and also discriminates against girls, especially in the classroom itself. So when I started it, I found that I was being attacked a lot towards being sexualized and they weren't really caring about what I had to say. But in fact, oh, what is she wearing? What is she, how does she look so this really scared me and really made me worry about our climate here and gender equality here in Malaysia. You were using the hashtag make school a safer

place and that that went viral let me welcome Marwa. Marwa hello. Hello. Thank you for being with us and you're part of something called the afghan dreamers as well not not only this directory who are they what do they focus on uh well um thank you so much for inviting me uh the afghan dreamers or the afghan robotics team which is made up of uh the girls uh from all uh the provinces of afghanistan like they participated mainly from Herat and Kabul capital. They participated in various international robotics competitions, giving international support for their determination. They have faced significant challenges due to the political and social situation in Afghanistan,

but still they're managing to continue their work. And you, I mentioned, are part of this. Why? Why did you get involved? Well, Afghan Robotics team, they actually aim to make a community for the girls who are focusing on the STEM. STEM is for the, the field of STEM actually is mainly for the science, technology, engineering and mathematics. So this community was made for the girls to have education in technology and also without thinking about any social barriers,

they're just doing their activities and showing the world that the girls in Afghanistan can do a lot of works in technology without any opportunity or with less facilities. I mentioned that you're in in the uk in london and uh studying here which is in stark contrast to um the women in afghanistan to girls in afghanistan um for for their reality at the moment i wonder what you wanted to say about that well um it's uh for myself uh coming from afghanistan here my own sisters are uh at home right now however they have the right to educate themselves and like it's not easy to walk in university and not remembering my sisters there

uh back in home and also my friends uh For me, it was a big opportunity. But my main concern is still for them that they still don't have access to their own main right, which is education. Yes, it's something we've spoken about on Women's Hour before. We will continue to make sure a light is shone on it. But I wanted to make sure I heard from you about it, because as you say, your family and your friends your female family and female friends are are still there and that is very much a reality i'm to come to you what would you like to do looking to the future

with this platform with the platform you've created for yourself and your campaigning What do you want to do next? Well, my next goal is to have activities in the field of technology and also giving some guidance to the other girls who are back in Afghanistan and use my LIS facilities to make some other... I want to encourage them and also want to give hope and support them from here with the online instructions we're giving. We still have girls in our team that are mentoring the girls back in Afghanistan. They're still giving online education to them. And we will continue our activities. And we are still working on some projects and they're displayed in universities and also in some exhibitions. And we will continue until proving

that we deserve our rights and they have to give us our rights. Mawar Shamwari, thank you very much for your time. Ayn, let me ask you the same question. To the future, what are you hoping to focus on in future oh uh i'm uh i'm uh sorry sorry sorry i'm trying to to hear from ein on and on her for the future it would be really good to to hear just if we can because we were hearing what you were focusing on ein hello uh yeah hello yes sorry what would you like to say?

What I hope for the future for the hashtag MakeSchoolSaverPlay campaign is that my ultimate goal is honestly to ensure that every student feels safe, respected and heard in their schools. I dream of a future

where there's comprehensive changes in our education system, especially here in Malaysia, where we don't really have such a comprehensive sexual education in our schools, which kind of gives space for abuse and also sexual harassment to happen to students, which I do believe is the most vulnerable group and should be taken care of. I envision a world where no students have to face harassment or discrimination based on their gender as girls where schools truly become safe spaces for everyone it's not just about releasing anti-sexual

harassment schools in Malaysia here but sometimes there's even things where girls are not expected to be leaders in Malaysia so I really want to see happen. And I do not want to be in a space where I, as a 17-year-old, need to tell my teacher, hey, sexual and inappropriate remarks are not okay, because a teacher should know that and our education system should ensure that. Thank you. Ayn Hosniza, thank you very much to you. Marwa Shamari, thank you to you. And thank you to you for your company this morning. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today Marwa Shamari. Thank you to you. And thank you to you for your company this morning. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, it's Amol. And I'm Nick, and we're launching the Today podcast from Radio 4. Come on then, what is it, Nick? Well, every week we're going to take a big subject we want to spend more time on, because I don't know about you,

when I present the Today programme, I'm always thinking of things I wish I'd asked, I wish I'd heard. And this is going to give us the time to do that, to get more analysis, more insight, sometimes more gossip. Same goes for me. I'm looking forward to this. Episodes will drop every Thursday. It's called the Today podcast, and you can listen now on BBC Sounds. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.