Woman's Hour - Dr Lisa Cameron MP, Saffron Coomber & Yero Timi Biu, Julia Fox, IVF add-ons

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

Dr Lisa Cameron was the SNP MP for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow from 2015 until a week ago when she decided to join the Conservative Party. She has described the move as equivalent to leaving an abusive marriage. In her first radio interview since her defection, she joins Emma Barnett to discuss what led to her making this decision.Listeners who have been through IVF treatment will be familiar the extra – and often very expensive – add-on services that many clinics recommend. The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA), the fertility regulator, has now launched a ratings system to let patients see which add-ons are backed-up by evidence. Strikingly, not one of them has been given the highest "green" rating. Professor Tim Child chairs the HFEA's Scientific and Clinical Advances Advisory Committee. Jessica Hepburn spent over £70,000 on unsuccessful fertility procedures and now campaigns about the fertility industry. They joined Emma to discuss.Three Little Birds is a new ITV series written by Lenny Henry which follows three women who emigrate from Jamaica to England in the 1950s - post-Windrush. The series is inspired by the stories of Lenny Henry’s family who, although had positive experiences of being helped as new arrivals, also shared accounts of physical and racial abuse when they reached the UK. Saffron Coomber who plays ‘Chantrelle’ and director Yero Timi Biu talk about the show.Julia Fox is an actor, artist and fashion icon, as famous for her breakout role in the film Uncut Gems as she is for her spectacular avant-garde fashion choices. She became tabloid fodder after a brief relationship with Kanye West. Her memoir Down the Drain describes a troubled childhood of sex, drugs and abusive relationships in Italy and New York. She tells Emma how her high-fashion image allows her to escape the male gaze.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Steve Greenwood.

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Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today you will hear quite an account from an MP who has felt forced to leave her party, the Scottish Nationalist Party, and defect to the Conservatives. In fact, you may have seen the footage of Dr Lisa Cameron crossing the floor of the House of Commons yesterday to take her seat on the blue benches, as it were, alongside the former Prime Minister, Theresa May. Why she claimed she felt she had to leave is quite the story and experience, as you'll hear shortly. Also on today's programme, the director and actor from Lenny Henry's new TV drama talking about the stories of three women who came to this country from Jamaica in the 50s. Julia Fox, the American actor and fashion icon, is in the building and will be with me in the Woman's Hour studio a bit later on. But what I also wanted to take the

opportunity to do today is reflect the fact that some of you are still getting in touch about my interview with Colleen Rooney and talk a bit about something she raised, which is the path not taken or something that came up, I should say, in our interview. I spoke to her ahead of her new documentary, The Real Wagatha Story, referring to Wagatha Christie, as she was dubbed. You can hear that whole interview on BBC Sounds from Wednesday's programme, yesterday's programme, 18th of October, or watch the visualised version on BBC iPlayer, which is under the news category. But as well as that court case with Rebecca Vardy, which Rebecca Vardy brought, that libel case, we also got into what she thinks of the term WAG, in inverted commas, whether she actually likes football was a good answer. her family if she hadn't started dating star footballer Wayne Rooney at the age of 16. Your life completely changed when you met Wayne and you got on board that bus, as it were, as very young kids. I mean, did you ever think about what you would have been,

what you may have been? Were you thinking along those lines? Actually, journalism was one of the roads I wanted to go down. I took English Lit Media Studies and Performing Arts for A-Level. I'd done AS, I continued into second year and then left. But I did enjoy, you know, journalistic writing and probably that would have been something that I would have gone on to university to do. Do you ever think about that?

I haven't got time to. A busy woman? Yeah, maybe when my children, you know, are grown up and maybe it's something that I could visit again. There you go. You heard it here first.

Colleen Rooney wanted to be a journalist and might still be. Who knows? I did go on to ask if she'd make us a piece here at Woman's Hour. And she's obviously got some track record with planting stories in the newspapers,

as that documentary clearly shows. Today, then, your opportunity, say anything you'd like about that conversation or interaction. Lots of you are taking the opportunity to do so, certainly on social media. But specifically, what path was not taken by you? What road not travelled? What could you have done? What would you have done? Do you have any regrets about not doing that thing? Or are you of the view everything happens or doesn't happen for a reason? What's for you won't pass you by. Or maybe you're going to come back to it in later life, perhaps like Colleen might. Do let me know in the usual ways.

You can text me. I'd love to hear from you today. The number is 84844. Text to charge your standard message rate. On social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the website or send a WhatsApp message or voice note.

The number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider. And I should say, since talking about my love of the telephone and conversations and my loathing of the text message earlier this week,

in a chat we had around data and younger people not picking up their phone to their parents, but also generally people no longer liking the text. Can we talk or having a phone call? A lot more of my friends have now been telephoning me. So thanks for that, everyone who's got on board with that and loving the rate of telephone calls I'm having at the moment. But let's get to something else. Because if you are in any way the remotest way familiar with IVF treatment, whether you've gone through it or someone close to you has, or perhaps you've read about it, you may be familiar or you may not. So let me tell you about the extra and often very expensive things, services called add-ons that

some IVF clinics may recommend. Women who are desperate to have a child and families, of course, going in there together are being encouraged to have add-ons such as immunology tests, endometrial scratching and other complex sounding procedures. Do they actually work? Of course, this was a subject of a BBC Panorama investigation some years ago. Now, the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority, that's the fertility regulator, has launched a rating system. We'd heard about it before, but it's actually there now and it lets patients see which fertility add-ons

are actually backed up by evidence. Remember, they add up the cost of these and you're dealing in hope. That's the currency really of IVF, what hopes you have and how to boost them. Strikingly, and I'm going to say this so it really does hit home, not one of these add-ons has been given the highest green rating. It's a traffic light system, not one. I'm joined on the line now by Professor Tim Child, who chairs the HFEA's Scientific and Clinical Advances Advisory Committee, and also by Jessica Hepburn, who spent over £70,000 on unsuccessful fertility procedures.

Jessica, I'll come to you in just a morning, but good morning, Professor Tim Child. Morning, Emma. The new rating system, I tried to explain it there, but perhaps you can tell us a bit more. Yes, back in 2017, the HFEA were concerned that some clinics were offering add-ons that didn't have any evidence behind them, there was a cost associated with them. And so a rating system came in, it was quite a simple rating system, just red, green and amber. And last year, we went out and we asked patients and people working in the sector how it could be improved. And that's what we've done now. So the range of rating outcomes, the types of data, et cetera, have just been finessed further.

And not one given the full green light, the top rating there. That's quite striking, isn't it? Yes. Well, what you're referring to is whether any of the add-ons actually increase the live birth rate per cycle, which is obviously the main thing that fertility clinics and patients are wanting. Well, you're not doing it for health, are you? You're doing it to achieve a goal. That's right. So none of them reached green. None of them? No, none of the 13 that have been assessed reached green in terms of increasing the live birth rate.

Other outcomes such as miscarriage rate, etc. Some of those were green, increasing the live birth rate. Other outcomes such as miscarriage rate, etc. Some of those were green, but not live birth rate. So if you are going through this procedure at the moment, and you're trying to navigate it, because that's the other thing, the context of this, what should you take from this? Because you want people to engage, I'm sure, with what work has been done. What should you deduce? I think we should deduce that not all add-ons are bad. So certainly many patients coming forward for IVF will have done their own research and will be interested in looking at whether particular add-ons could be added in to their treatment cycle. But to make a decision, patients need to be informed. And it can be very difficult for people to find out unbiased evidence for this.

And this is what we've tried to do. And some procedures came bottom, given a red rating. Does that mean they're pointless? Well, red actually means that an add-on might actually lower the live birth rate or might be dangerous. The black rating means that the add-on is pointless. So black means that studies have been done and show that the rating does not improve the outcome. But red means that it can actually lower the outcome or have some risks associated. Can you give an example of a red rating? Something that got that?

So one of the ones that got red that previously was amber, which meant that we didn't know, is where the endometrium, which is the lining of the womb, is assessed to try and work out the optimal window for embryo implantation. So it's about changing the day that you put an embryo back. And we've actually shown, based on some recent studies, that people who use that system, it actually can lower the light birth rate per cycle. Which, you know, is really sobering, I suppose, for people to hear and especially for women to hear when thinking about what to put their money towards, what to put their efforts towards. Let me bring in Jessica at this point. Jessica, what's your response to this? Oh, well, lots. And I mean, I really welcome the traffic light system. I mean, I have to say, as you said at the beginning, Emma, I went through 11 rounds of IVF, unsuccessful IVF. I used many of these add-ons, but I'd also like to say, like Colleen, really, no regrets.

You know, like you are trying everything to achieve this dream. And, you know, like I was involved in that panorama program that you mentioned and it was some years ago now I was actually a patient at the time and one of the things that I said very strongly then is that I do feel patients are complicit in deciding whether they want to go ahead with these treatments so I don't think I'm not like i've never been super critical of all the doctors that prescribe me them to me however i also really believe that knowledge is power and there are a lot of things that i didn't know so i do really very much welcome this this traffic light system and this advanced traffic light system which has sort of increased in the

number of levels now um and if i may i was just going to say, I know what you're saying. It's a really nuanced, important point about being complicit. And yet at the same time, you're not, not everybody's in a place or a state of mind to think critically, to think, will this work? And it is a money making exercise to an extent that it costs a lot of money and the fact that there is such a variety of bills that you can have. So there is also that criticism, isn't there, that you shouldn't be offering something, especially now if it's on the red level or even black. You're so right, Emma, because you are vulnerable as a patient because, you know, you're not only is this treatment that is going on to your you know it's affecting your body it is absolutely affecting your mental health and you feel that if you cannot achieve this dream that you may never be happy so yeah and absolutely I am sure

that that makes patients very very vulnerable and one of the things that I would like to ask Tim actually I was thinking about this this morning when I was looking at the new traffic light system, is that it does feel like there's a bit of still too much onus on the patient having to sort of work their way through this traffic light system. about potentially ensuring that clinicians who are going to prescribe these treatments actually talk through what they are suggesting. And maybe there's some consent forms, and obviously you do have to sign a lot of consent forms when you're going through treatment, to say that you have had this treatment taught through with you and you do understand where it sits on the traffic light system. And I'd love to ask Tim that question myself. Tim? It's a very good point there so certainly the HFEA have told clinics and doctors that they

need to be discussing the rating system with patients when add-ons are being discussed. Now at the moment the HFEA has no remit to actually make clinics report the data on how many patients are using add-ons or the costs associated with that. And as you'll be aware, there's actually, I mean, Parliament are considering reforming the HFEA Act, and certainly in the next month or two, we, the HFEA, are putting proposals towards the government. And that would include, for instance, HFEA having some powers over the use of add-ons. Do you have any power to stop clinics from offering add-ons that are in the black or in the red zone? No, I mean, from an HFEA perspective, no. I mean, certainly, the competition of markets authority have looked at how IVF clinics advertise their services, etc.

And obviously, doctors are also bound by the GMC. So there's other regulatory authorities out there. that doctors working in a private capacity, which is a lot of what we're talking about, wouldn't be able to even suggest things that could lower the rate of a live birth. Is that frustrating for you? It is. I think a good example, though, is that previously the endometrial scratch, which was a very, very commonly used procedure

three or four years ago, which was where before an IVF cycle, a doctor would pass a small catheter or straw through the neck of the womb and make some temporary damage to the womb lining. And that was thought by many people to maybe increase the success rate. We on the HFEA then showed that in fact, it didn't improve the success rate at all. And now it's pretty uncommon actually that patients even ask for that procedure or quite rightly, it is recommended by clinics as well. Just because I'm short of time, is this information all on the HFEA website?

Yes, it's going live today. So it's hfea.gov.uk. There you go. Professor Tim Child, thank you to you. And Jessica Hepburn, always lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much for coming on the programme. And that's how you find that information. Now, I mentioned the story of a politician at the start of the programme. Let me tell you a bit more. Dr Lisa Cameron was a Scottish Nationalist Party MP until a week hear, she feels the fact that she is a Christian and had concerns about the party's gender recognition reforms in part led to her being bullied

and ostracised by the SNP. It's quite an account. She also can no longer live in her own home due to security concerns after receiving many threats after news of her defection broke a few days ago and says the behaviour of her former SNP colleagues

led to her, a former mental health professional, needing to take antidepressants. I spoke to Dr Lisa Cameron, now a Conservative MP, just before coming on air this morning and I started by asking why she left the SNP. Basically, we'd had a meeting when I was a member of the SNP in the group and an MP had apologised and been suspended for sexual misconduct towards a member of staff

and we had all been advised to basically welcome this person back and support them. And because I had worked as a psychologist for a number of years I thought it was important to raise the impact on the victim so I had said shouldn't we be supporting the victim in this sense and you know have more of a victim-led strategy with this and it was almost like tumbleweed blew through the room. So this is you sitting with your fellow SNP MPs. You are talking about Patrick Grady, who was your SNP colleague, who had the whip restored at the end of last year after sexual harassment suspension from the party. Just giving our listeners some context there.

Yes, and throughout the situation, I'd kept in touch with the victim. I was the only MP from the SNP to remain in touch with the victim. And he had felt himself very ignored and that his mental health had been ignored as well and that he had been ostracised and actually had to leave his job. And that's why one of the reasons I brought up, you know, shouldn't we be having more support for the victim in this case? But it didn't go down well at all. And it just led to months and months of hostility. I was treated as though I wasn't a team player for raising those issues.

And relationships with colleagues became very, very strained and very few words exchanged. Sometimes I'd be sitting in the tea room and no one would speak to me. Some people would actually change table at times. And it was just very, very difficult to feel ostracised to that sense because I felt I was doing the right thing. When I went to see the counsellor about it at Westminster, he reassured me that I was doing the right thing. Sorry, is that an independent counsellor? Or what does that word mean?

Because it can mean two types of counsellor if you're listening to politics. Oh, yeah, of course. No, it's like a therapist. So there's a welfare service at Westminster, which is really, really good. And they provided me with therapy for about, well, I saw him again this week. So it's over a year now from June when this meeting happened last year to now.

Really to try to rebuild my confidence in terms of the way I was being treated and my ability to try to gain that so that I could find my voice again on these issues because for a long time I felt very silenced on it. I should again say you're talking about a male teenage party staffer who was subjected to unwanted sexual advances. The MP in question as I I said, Patrick Grady, readmitted to the party, to the SNP's Westminster group. He stepped away during the summer last year. And this was after a retrospective suspension was imposed and deemed to have been served. And the police didn't take any further action. But your point and bringing this to you was you raised the thinking about the

victim, the alleged victim in this, at this meeting. And then was that the end of a lot of your relationships, are you saying, with your fellow SNP MPs at Westminster? Yeah, it was. I had thought that this was quite a sensible thing to say because I'd worked with victims in court settings as a psychologist and in mental health services. And I knew the impact of victims who had come forward.

It's a very brave thing to do. And I knew that this particular individual was really struggling. And he had hoped not that his career wouldn't end in politics as well. So I felt we should be giving him support to make sure that he could remain in the workplace. But it was, you know, very much about support for the perpetrator rather than the victim. And at that point, you know, that's when relationships just deteriorated to the point that there was very little communication at all. Did you go and talk to Nicola Sturgeon about it at the time?

I've not actually had a one-to-one with Nicola Sturgeon since I was an MP elected in 2015. So that's not a channel of communication that I've ever had. I suppose she was the leader at this time we're talking about. I mean, that in itself, some people may find interesting. But what I meant by that was, who did you tell within the SNP? I know you went to a councillor that this wasn't going okay for you in your party, because someone needs to be told sometimes those things to know that someone's struggling. Yeah, well, I mean, it was actually the leader at the time, Ian Blackford, who had, you know,

stated that people should be supporting Patrick on his return. And it was following from that direction to the group, that people's behaviour towards me started to change quite dramatically. So I felt very alone with it. I went to the counsellor, but I did inform all of the chief whips. We've had three over the last year that I was attending the counselling services at Westminster and that I was really struggling a kind of almost like a group direction to follow the leadership position on it so I felt very alone with it and that's why I needed the counselling and certainly colleagues you know they didn't reach out to me during that whole time and the chief whip I never had a one-to-one meeting with him or anything at the time after the the you know telling him I needed the counselling any of them

actually so I just felt left on my own with it. We should also say that Grady was it was the former SNP chief whip and you described that Ian Blackford just for people who aren't necessarily across this he was then the leader of the Westminster group of SNPs just just to paint this picture I mean you've used some very strong language about your decision to leave you've you've talked about it was the equivalent of leaving an abusive marriage yeah I felt that I didn't have a voice at all and that I was being bullied that I was ostracized there were other instances so for instance I was being bullied, that I was ostracised. There were other instances. So, for instance, I was put onto the committee in the House of Commons

without anyone speaking to me about it. So I was put onto the HS2 committee last year. No one asked me if I wanted to be on the committee. No one even informed me I was on the committee. I read about it in the newspaper that I had been put onto the committee. At one point, they sent me an email saying, you know, you're moving out of your room tomorrow to a different room and we've sent crates to you.

And I had to say, well, actually, the councillor that I'm seeing said I'm not meant to have a lot of upheaval just now, so I don't think that I should be transported to another room without any discussion. Then they put Patrick Grady next door to me when he returned to the group so a lot of things happened that actually felt very hostile and intimidating to me alongside the fact that colleagues were blanking me and there was no support for me from the group. Were you able to do your job? I was able to do some of my job. The constituency work obviously I was able to do because I've had a good team in the constituency who were supporting me. I think over the past year I've spoken a lot less in Westminster than I had the years before. And, you know, that's because I felt a lack of confidence.

I felt a lack of support. I did sort of try to throw myself into the other types of work you can do out with party politics, so to speak, like the all party group work. So chairing the health group, the disability group and the digital assets group. So I did a lot of work on those issues because it kind of took me away from the problem that I was having and gave me, I suppose, some kind of support from other people in other settings who, you know, outwith the party. So I was really seeking that kind of support. I also have a very good office manager in Westminster who was a great support to me throughout the whole thing. And we would have, I mean, she regularly would just sit down and have coffee with me, have,

you know, we would have dinner in the evening and we would schedule that because I was there myself away from my family and no one else in the party were doing any of those things with me. It has been suggested that you were expected to be deselected by local party members as the candidate for the next general election for the SNP. I wanted to give you the chance to respond to some who say that's the real reason why you defected to the Conservatives. Well, I mean, our relationships had deteriorated for those 12 months I hadn't been spoken to people felt because I was keeping in touch with the victim and I hadn't you know been the team player in that sense. We had seen 25,000 people and I had won MP of the Year award from the Patchwork Foundation you know for my disability work so I just felt, my goodness,

it's a continuation of the bullying, really. And I went to see my GP about two weeks ago to get my antidepressants again, and he had said to me, look, you've had your counselling, that helps you to cope. The antidepressants help to take the edge off, but you need to change your situation. You're not going to feel any better unless you to cope. The antidepressants help to take the edge off, but you need to change your situation. You're not going to feel any better unless you do that.

Did you go on to antidepressants because of this? Yes, I have, yes, yes. So I went from my time in the SNP, I went from being a mental health practitioner, psychologist, helping other people to becoming a patient, really, because of this. Yeah. What's that been like? Yeah, I mean, at first, obviously, it's been a really hard journey for me. And a journey that I felt very isolated and alone throughout. But I've had good support from Westminster. That's another reason I don't like this sort of narrative. Everything in the Scottish Parliament is good, everything in Westminster is bad.

There's good practice in both and there's difficult practice in each as well that can be improved on. But it was very hard to kind of just cope day to day. And that's why the antidepressants helped, as the GP said. Just it's taking the edge off things but it didn't change the situation and I think when he finally sort of said that to me the penny dropped and I was just like yeah I need to this this is untenable now I need I need to move and I need to be true to myself in in that regard. Were you scared to defect to the Conservatives? Yeah, because there's so much hostility and abuse in Scotland in terms of the politics,

it's very divisive. And it was something that gave me great anxiety because of the level of abuse. I knew I would suffer from what's called the cybernats in Scotland. And I, you know, I was concerned that I would and my family would experience threats of violence. There were reports at the weekend that you'd gone into hiding. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. So we had to leave our home and be relocated because of some of the threats we were experiencing and because of the risk being assessed and managed at that time. So I've had to have involvement with parliamentary security services and also they've been lazing and I've been in contact with Police Scotland about it as well.

So the kids had to leave their home. We're still not home. Are you not? No, no, because we need to have the risk assessment completed and a sort of management plan in place. And I don't want to put anyone else at risk. You know, my family mean the world to me. I'm a mum before I'm anything else. And my girls deserve to feel safe in their house.

And that's got to be the number one priority. I mean, I don't want to go into any more details about that side of what you're having to do because your security is going to be very delicate and very sensitive and I don't wish to put you at any more risk. I think it's also very mindful at this moment to remember what has happened to MPs. There have been loss of life and that is a very serious point. Absolutely. I mean, we've lost fantastic MPs who I knew personally. Sir David Amess, an amazing person to work with. I did a lot of work with him in animal welfare,

and Joe Cox as well, of course, who was such a compassionate MP. And I'm just very struck. It was actually the 15th of October 2021 when David Amess, Sir David Amess was killed so we've just passed that anniversary when we're talking because it's I think you know we have to also when we have these conversations remember MPs are people and what's going on there so you know it's not easy I'm sure for you to to talk about that and you're not in your own home. No we're not in our own home and that has to be managed and assessed and we've had a number of um threats I'm going to brick you in the street um your life is going to be shortened now watch out those types of things

so the police have to assess all of that because as you say we've lost MPs they've lost their lives in politics because of violence. Have you been scared that you know that you that you would also have something like that happen have you been scared to that level? Yeah absolutely I'm not taking I'm not going to underplay any risks as I say I'm you know that's very anxiety provoking for me but my main concern is my children of course and we live locally in the constituency um and you know also my staff so I have like a greater responsibility as well for other people so just broadly speaking you know I'm interested in your ideas and your thoughts you obviously did support an independent Scotland because you stood for SNP yeah because when I no longer support that no I don't when I When I joined the SNP in 2014,

I was told it would be a big, broad tent of people from all different backgrounds. Everybody would be welcome with all different views. Throughout the time I've been there, I've had struggles in terms of people frowning upon myself because I'm a Christian and I attend a free church, just like Kate Forbes does. And some of those issues have come up.

So I felt very much that being a Christian was something that that you know was not welcome in the SNP then I had the gender recognition act which I you know felt there were grave concerns about safety for women and girls in sports and in you know safe spaces etc and that those concerns should be raised and accepted and you know compromise could happen and I got into you know an issue with the SNP earlier this year because I wrote to the Secretary of State on behalf of my constituents because I've represented everybody's views in my constituency whether it's been an SNP view or not throughout. So I wrote to Alistair Jack because women had contacted me. Lots of women had contacted me to say, please raise the fact that, you know, we are concerned about the Gender Recognition Act.

And I did that. I wrote to Alistair and said, basically, can you find a resolution that respects everybody's rights and doesn't undermine the devolution process? Well, I mean, that was treated like almost heresy, raising my constituents' concerns. The cybernats went absolutely crazy again online. I have to represent everybody. What you're saying there, though, because you've brought a few issues in, is that being within the SNP, from your experience, and I'm just mindful, I saw that Alice, I want to give you the chance to respond to this before our time is up. But Alison Thewlis, who is the SNP's Home Affairs spokesperson at Westminster, has suggested you acted inappropriately to other SNP members.

I don't know the details of that, but what do you want to say to that before I ask this question? Well, I mean, I think that's a disgraceful thing to say, to be quite honest, because the SNP have a conduct committee that's fully functioning. Not once has that conduct committee ever contacted me about any allegations. I've never been at any hearings. I've never even had a letter from them about anything. So to say that now I feel is just mud flinging. And actually, given the mental health struggles I've had, I think it's shocking that colleagues continue to sort of double down on bullying and victimisation. Has anyone been in touch with you from the SNP? Not until this week. So throughout all of the issues I've had,

and even when I was speaking about having panic attacks because of the SNP behaviour towards me in the past month, no one had contacted me. This week on Monday when I came back, Stephen Flynn wrote me a brief email saying he hoped I was OK, basically. And that's the first contact I had. Still never heard from Humza Yousaf or anyone else in the SNP. I mean, it's just been, of course, the SNP conference as well. What I was going on to say, just a couple more if I can, which was, it's very striking that you're painting an image of a party that you don't trust with the independence of Scotland. That's what you said. I don't want to misrepresent. But it also sounds like you've also gone off the idea of an independent Scotland generally.

To be honest with you, I feel absolutely exhausted by nationalism. I feel like Scotland's exhausted by nationalism and all of our services are exhausted now. It's become very divisive. It was badged to me in 2014 as a big broad tent. It's become narrower and narrower and narrower towards nationalism that I don't even recognize the party I joined from 2014. So why not join Labour why join Conservative when you say Labour's probably the the one that might take that seat anyway why not go more towards that direction what what do the Conservatives have

for you that Labour do not? Well it wasn't about how can I hold a seat that no no I recognize that but but just looking at the people around you your constituents and what they might be in tune with, what was it about Conservatives that Labour were not giving to you? Yeah, there were a few different issues there. One was that actually the Prime Minister of Issues, Sunak, his team reached out to me to ask if I was OK. And I was able to speak with him about some of the issues I'd had and he was very clear to me that I would be welcome as a Christian in the Conservative Party. I come from a Conservative family so my parents are Conservative so that's you know. So that's a link. A link yeah so I didn't ever have I've never hated anyone in politics so I never had this kind

of thing that SNP say I hate Conservatives or I hate I don't hate anybody you know there's all different policies um that that you know people can work together on uh more constructively um and and I think um you know just in terms of feeling uh that that I could uh move on uh and be accepted for who I, not have to change my faith, values, roundabout that. And really just to kind of feel that inclusion. I felt the prime minister reaching out was something that I hadn't had. You hadn't had that link to leadership? No, for you. Well, I've never sat down with Nicola Sturgeon, had a one-to-one, never sat down with Humza Yousaf, had a one-to-one like that.

But I think what I'm learning from this conversation, which I hadn't seen in any of your other dialogues and conversations since your decision, is are you saying you feel you were pushed out of the SNP because you were a Christian as well? Well, I didn't feel particularly wanted in the SNP as a Christian. In what way? Well similar to the issues that Kate Forbes had. Who ran for the leadership for those who may not remember. Yeah you were made to feel like yeah you're a Christian but just don't kind of raise it very much certainly don't vote in line with any of your beliefs you know so I had voted against abortion regulations previously in the parliament and that had been another issue with the SNP.

They'd actually said that some people in the SNP had said at the time that I shouldn't be able to be selected because of those issues as an MP last time. So there had been ongoing issues about not being able to be who I am, not being a big broad tent of all different people from different political backgrounds. I just wanted to make sure I'd asked that particular question. It's very hard. Yes, well, you've had a journey on many levels. Can I just finally ask about one journey, which was quite a short journey, but it was a big statement when you crossed the floor yesterday. You went and sat next to or close to Theresa May. Yes, yes.

What was that like? Well, I've always respected Theresa May because I think she's given so much of her life to politics. And again, that's another thing. When I've worked in the Parliament, it's always been a cross party. And Theresa May, I think, is someone who, you know you know for women in politics is someone that we look up to and I felt very supported by her in terms of making that journey which was a massive deal for me on the day and I just want to kind of thank her for that and I did that yesterday as well because it was very poignant for me that she took me under her wing that day and helped me with the process. Dr Lisa Cameron speaking to me earlier.

An SNP spokesperson said that Lisa Cameron's constituents will be appalled that they're now represented by a Conservative and Unionist MP. This statement says rather, Lisa Cameron should now do the right thing and step down to allow a by-election. Her constituents elected an SNP MP, not a Conservative, and they deserve to have the democratic opportunity to elect a hard-working SNP MP who will put the interests of Scotland first. On a personal basis, we wish her well. And as I said, Lisa rejects that idea of a by-election being necessary. We also this morning

have put to the SNP that Lisa's views that she felt ostracised within the political party as a Christian. And the party spokesman has said we had not as a programme given it enough time or detail to respond adequately. We will of course carry any statement sent to us after this broadcast and bring that to you. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now Three Little Birds is a new ITV drama written by Lenny Henry, which follows three women who emigrate from Jamaica to England in the 50s post-wind rush. The series is inspired by the stories of Lenny Henry's family, who, although had positive experiences of being helped as new arrivals, also shared accounts of abuse when they reached these shores. The three female characters in the series all have very different reasons to leave Jamaica, but they come together to overcome racism and sexism

and create their own paths. I'm happy to say I am now joined by Safran Kumar, who plays Chanterelle as one of the, and also as one of the show's directors. Yero Timi, welcome to Woman's Hour this morning. And I just wanted to say to both of you, I've been able to see some of this and what a joy it is. Congratulations on it to both of you.

Yero, if I could start with you, what do you want to say to people about this project and this whole experience? I would firstly like to say to anyone watching, please enjoy and be entertained as you learn about a massive part of history, a massive part of British history. And you see these three incredible women and everyone around them just striving to survive and make a good life for themselves and like fall in love and experience new things that just make life very wonderful and great. Because there's a nuance to it, isn't it? It is entertaining, but it's also really hard. Yes. To say the least. Definitely it's, you know, life is very hard and I think I'm happy that you've said it's nuanced because I feel such a sense of joy to see nuanced characters on screen that are women. And also just it feels really real. It feels like something I personally haven't seen before with a group of women on TV, especially something set in the 50s. In what way that you've not seen before? I think just showing life as it is, the struggle, but also the balance of joy and happiness,

because I think that was really important when I came on to direct the episodes that I directed, to make sure that we're showing a varied kind of a world. And we see the struggle of people, but also how people overcome things and band together to basically be great. Saffron, you play Chanterelle and it's a brilliant character.

She's a brilliant character. What drew you to it? Oh, I'm so sorry. You're on mute, which is one of those things we all said during lockdown, but I'm saying it again. What a throwback. Hello.

Hello. Thank you for your kind words. Chanterelle, for me, is a dream character. She's someone that I have always wanted to play. Echoing off of the words that you just used, she is nuanced. She's not just one thing. We meet her and she is full of life. Joy de vivre. She she has the world at her feet.

Also, she feels, you know, she's a people person. She's vivacious, bodacious, you know. But when she gets to England, she goes on this journey. She she develops so much. She finds out that life isn't what she goes on this journey. She develops so much. She finds out that life isn't what she thought it would be. And so for me as an actor, to have such a character arc is always just, it's the best thing. Your character takes on a job of a nanny to a British family.

We've got a clip from the programme of when she arrives to start that job. So let's have a listen to that. Come here, everyone. She's here at last. Sorry we're late. There were a few inconvenient incidents along the way that slowed us down a little bit. You're still late. You might get away with this kind of behaviour in Jamaica, Miss Browns, but it won't wash here. Here we are. We're just glad you're here. We were worried. Many apologies for the lateness. I'm so delighted to meet everyone.

What delightful children. You have a delightful home. This is a delightful area. Let's just put the lateness behind us, shall we? It's quite, it's not the warmest of welcomes, is it, Zafron? She's trying her best. There's a kind of in-joke, I would say, amongst

the community of having a speaky-spoky voice. So, you know, she has been late, which I will not spoil now. I hope you watch it to find out why. And, you know, she's trying to put her best foot forward. She's trying to speak proper English, you know, and I think it's very representative of the kind of values that I think our ancestors were given.

Obviously, they were given the same education that English people were receiving at the time. So they had the same kind of uh what's the word um the word escapes me now but you know they were taught that the motherland um would welcome them and so you speak like this and you sit like that and you're given proper english manners um and so i think when people came over they were really expecting a warm welcome because that's what they were told they would get. And so to receive a cold welcome that she does, I think is very accurate. And you don't sugarcoat those difficult experiences.

There were signs, there were all sorts of things in that era of England that may shock people. Definitely. Sorry, I was just going to go back to Yero if I can Safran I'll come back to you in a moment it's because Safran and I are just so in tune yeah and we worked we we worked really hard together to make sure that we were being as authentic or sorry authentic as possible because yes there are there are signs that you know my granddad would have seen coming from Nigeria in the 50s in Manchester and still studying and still having to, like, get on with his day. We wanted to make sure we were as true to that as possible.

But we also wanted to show the allyship because people were, you know, invited to come over. So there are so many people in the Midlands where we filmed that were very welcoming and part of the community and had their own struggles too whether they were like working-class Irish people or South Asian people and when I say side sorry we're talking about um where people were allowed to go and what those signs said aren't we yes yes yes so um without any spoilers yes there are there are lots of um it's very it's a rude awakening I'll say, for our characters when they arrive in the UK. It's like young women, just, as Saf said,

just so charismatic and full of joy. So when they realise that life is going to be very different here and it's not really as expected, they're in for a massive ride. And I think that's the beauty of the show, that we really show everything,arts and all did you learn anything stuff on that you didn't know before about that time and and what we don't know um I would say without sounding too arrogant I would say that I was pretty well um learned about it just because it's my family um you know and that period of time really fascinates me um i'm always interested in getting to the reality of situations and i think what is

sad um is that the people who came over and were the pioneers and were so courageous to make that jump from um you know everything they've known known to come and build a new life. They didn't really talk about it. I know that there are some families that still don't quite know what it was like other than, well, is that right? Oh, yes, well, you know, people were busy surviving. Try and build the life for their children and for those to come, such as myself. So for me, it's obviously intensely upsetting

to go and revise the history and really to, you know, as we've mentioned, to get it as specific as possible. But I'm under no illusion of how difficult it was to be here. Safran, thank you very much. That's Safran Kumar who plays Chantrelle. Yeah, let me just give you the final word on this because I think there's a really amazing word that Safran just used, which is pioneer, right?

And also you've got three women here being shown as the pioneers. How important do you think that is? Super important. The research that I did coming onto this is just finding out how incredible, and I mean, knowing this, but really solidifying for me, how incredible and I mean knowing this but really

solidifying for me how incredible the women were that were here in the 50s I think just from factory workers to people trying to save up money to open up their you know to get bank accounts which they weren't allowed to have I think that is just something very very incredible and there's so much I wish I could say about the episodes I directed but oh my goodness we have some incredible episodes that really showcase how wonderful these women are and Saffron is just one of the most fantastic actors and all of the other cast too so I'm really excited for everyone. Well that I can agree with without spoiling anything. All the best to all of you I know it's a big team and And of course, I mentioned Lenny Henry.

It's wonderful to have both of you on the programme. Yaru, Timmy, Biu, thank you very much to you, one of the directors. It is a series. And the programme, if you're doing that thing where sometimes we get told we don't say it enough, what the thing is that you're hearing about, it's called Three Little Birds. And it's on ITV. Thank you very much and all the best with it. Thank you.

Just some messages coming in about my previous guest. You were listening to an SNP MP who's defected to the Conservative Party on the politics side of life. Dr Lisa Cameron's political choices seem more about her personal well-being and not the interest of the country, reads this message. Her constituents reads this one. I know

we have a lot of Scottish listeners and those listening in Scotland. Elected an SNP MP. Now she no longer supports the party she should resign. But another one here saying, painful listening to Lisa describe the narrow bullying party politics she experienced at SNP Westminster at the same time. I do believe her constituents deserve an immediate by-election. And on it goes, but I just wanted to reflect that.

And some brilliant messages coming in throughout the programme of paths not travelled. Someone saying you weren't a musician and you've always wanted to and now you're doing it. Another one saying you wish you'd been a lawyer because you could have supported women in a different way and made a difference to human rights. And another one here saying I wanted to become an MP but now I ended up co-founding the UK Youth Parliament and I'm a qualified youth worker. On it goes. An interesting theme and I hope we can come back to it. Let me tell you who's just walked into the studio. Julia Fox an actor an artist and a fashion icon as famous for her

breakout role in the film uh uncut gems with adam sandler as she is for her spectacular avant-garde fashion choices she hasn't disappointed today um and now the author of i think a best-selling book we could say that now can't we down the drain Julia Fox good morning thank you good morning thank you for having me you've added author to the list how does that feel it's a dream come true I literally prayed it you know ever since I was a child it's always something I wanted to do it's my happy place I love writing I love to just be alone and and but you share an awful lot in this I do and and why did you want to do that as a lot of you know celebrities people in your position value privacy right you know I think it's just the truth and if I was gonna write a book and make it a memoir I feel like I kind of

had to tell the truth and not sugarcoat it or not make it like a fluff piece of sorts. I really wanted it to be impactful, and I wanted people to be able to relate to it because I think the message, you know, there are some darker themes throughout the book, but I think it's really about survival, and it's very life-affirming that you can go through all these things and still make it out on the other side and, you know, come to BBC Women's Hour radio hello it's such an honor and a privilege and there's definitely a time in my life where I couldn't have even imagined this for myself so you you have a whole image that people obviously tap

into and this is about going beneath that and finding out who you are underneath um you know when somebody thinks to mind your fashion, they may think of latex corsets, gigantic fluffy boots today. And just because it's radio, you're wearing a pinstripe. What are we wearing, a pinstripe? It is a pinstripe gown a la Morticia Adams by a British designer, Moa Lola. And I just love her work.

But the reason I'm mentioning what you're wearing, and there'll some be thinking, Emma, come on, it's woman's hour. Don't talk about what woman's wearing, talk about what she's thinking about. But that is actually what you discuss a little bit in the book, isn't it? You start talking about, you're aware of the power of your body, the effect on men. And then you also write in the book, I start shedding the baggy clothes. I embrace my figure. I'm hooked to the power I can have over someone simply by existing. What power are you talking about? And how have you navigated that? And I wonder if it's changed over the years. You know, I think in life, you're dealt certain cards. And one of them was that I

had a nice figure. And I needed to play that card to win at life. And I used my body as a survival mechanism as a tool to make money. And I mean, you're talking there, of course, about a whole range of roles that you have held from modeling, acting, being an influencer right through. Yeah. And then being a dominatrix. Which you also detail in the book. I mean, we are a grown up program. We can go there. But we're now talking about it. I mean, there is a lot of detail we probably can't go into right now.

But you do go into the detail that you don't shy away from it. I do. And, you know, every time I speak about being a dominatrix and sex work, I always talk about it in a positive light. And I get such backlash for it. And I don't think people understand that, that being a dominatrix is so unique because, you know, the dungeon is the only place in the world where it's very matriarchal and the women rule and the men are there to serve and be submissive. And I think seeing that at a very young age, just opened up a whole new world for me. And I was just like, this is the way it should be. This works. I mean,

we are graceful rulers, we are kind and caring. And we don't abuse our power when we do have it, I think, as much as men do. But I mean, you did talk about it being a world full of estrogen, that space, and the female solidarity. I don't know if that was also there or not there. But do you look back again at that? Because obviously writing a memoir at this stage of your life, how old are you now? 33. Okay, so there could be another memoir.

There could be. But writing it at this stage, you know, and talking to it as I just was as a successful director and an actor, you look back at different things differently at different points. Do you look back at that time, you seem like it's fond, but you were young and I know you've looked back on how that power was used and misused.

Yeah, for sure. But I think overall, it was such a self-esteem booster. I think prior to that, I had, you know, men would tell me I was pretty or hot or attractive, but I just never believed them. And then when I was working at the dungeon and I saw that I was making more money than some other girls and I was getting booked more. And that was kind of a metric that I could actually measure. And then I believed it once it was fact. And then I kind of started to see my worth a little bit more and I was like oh maybe I am pretty and because I just never saw myself like that before. How does it work then when you I mean you go through your

story and you talk about different ages and stages and then what you're doing um how does it work when there's there's another relationship you refer to uh as an artist the artist in the book given that he's described as a famous musician and there's a reference of keeping up to the Kardashians, you're known to have dated Kanye West. Readers might assume he is the artist, but I'm just very aware, that's certainly what I thought, but I'm just very aware that when you're describing that experience and that relationship,

you don't seem like you're in control, that you are in the same way as you are that you were just describing, because I'm just giving an insight, I'm not going to ruin anything but he bought you entirely new clothes hired a stylist wouldn't let you appear with him unless he personally approved your outfit choice beforehand I mean it's a real window into something definitely and you know I think at the time there were definitely some red flags that I chose to turn a blind eye to because it was fun and exciting and shiny and, you know, just new. And I was, you know, also going through a lot in my personal life and it

just felt like a welcome change. And I was kind of, you know, sometimes it's nice to just relinquish power and not have to think about you know the little details it's definitely it felt like a relief in the beginning like oh finally someone else can take the reins but I think you know that that it became unsustainable and that's why the relationship only lasted a month. Also just the insight into how all those things happen and people having photographers around them the whole time and you know you wonder how these things play out you think you have an idea I found it really eye-opening as well that bit as with a lot of the book which is why I'm sure a lot of people have wanted to read it and checked into it. Just a final thing

I think this is something we've talked about in Women's Hour before but dressing for women and dressing for men yeah there is a difference and i know that you've thought about that and explored it and found what you're happy with what would you what do you want to say about that i you know it's so interesting because i think my entire life i just dressed for men whether i was realizing it or whether it was conscious or not i think i was you know really my appearance was very much to please the male gaze in a way. And then something happened. I don't know if it was motherhood or just being thrust into the public eye. And I was like, wait, I don't want to uphold this anymore. I want to dress for the girls. And men hate my outfits. They're so mad that I like, I'm not like hot, like how I was

in Uncut Drums. I hear that all the time. But I don't care because the girls love it. The girls and the gays love it. And that's really who I'm dressing for. You have quite the entourage with you today. I mean, our green room's never been so full. I do. Not one straight man. Well, there you go.

I could talk to you for much longer, but it's lovely to have you on the program. Thank you so much for having me. Down the Drain, with a very striking image you'd expect no less on the front of this book, by Julia Fox. Thank you so much for having me. Down the drain with a very striking image you'd expect no less on the front of this book by Julia Fox. Thank you so much for your time this morning. And thank you to you for your company as always. Hopefully we've given you lots to think about and some of you reflecting on the path not taken as well.

Thank you for those messages. And they are still coming in. And if we can, we'll put them together for you. Be back with us tomorrow on Woman's Hour at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Melvin Bragg,

and I'm back with a new series of BBC Radio 4's In Our Time. We're celebrating our 1,000th episode, so there's an extraordinary range of topics for you to get stuck into, from history, science and philosophy, to religion and the arts. This series, we're discussing Albert Einstein, E. Mark Bergman, Plankton, the Versailles Treaty and much more. In Our Time is like an audio encyclopedia, we're told, and you can hear it all on BBC Sounds. I hope you enjoy it. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.