Woman's Hour - Dr Precious Lunga on Jon Snow's Alzheimer's, Peptides, Flower farmers

Episode Date: June 20, 2026

Peptides have become a new buzzword in the wellness industry. Social media influencers have spoken about using them for optimising performance in the gym and improving their appearance, and they’re increasingly popular with women. But some unregulated peptides haven’t been through clinical trials and could be ineffective, or even harmful. Nuala McGovern is joined by BBC Health reporter Ruth Clegg, who has been looking into the way women are using peptides, and Adam Taylor, Professor of Anatomy at the University of Lancaster.Jon Snow, the lead presenter of Channel 4 News for over three decades. has revealed he has Alzheimer's disease. During his career, he reported on stories including the fall of the Berlin Wall, the release of Nelson Mandela and Barack Obama's inauguration. In a new Channel 4 documentary, made in conjunction with the Alzheimer’s Society, Jon Snow: A Last Big Story, he is seen uncovering an environmental disaster in Zambia. In her first broadcast interview since the diagnosis was announced, Jon’s wife, Dr Precious Lunga, joins Anita Rani to talk about how they are navigating life now.Actor Geraldine James is renowned for a host of roles in theatre and on screen, from Jewel in the Crown to The Cage. Now she's making her Chichester theatre debut in the stage premiere of the 2015 film 45 years, alongside Gabriel Byrne. The couple are about to celebrate 45 years of marriage, when news arrives in a letter from Switzerland about a woman's body that's been discovered in a melting glacier, sending shockwaves through their marriage.There is rising demand for homegrown blooms. According to the trade association Flowers From the Farm, small-scale growers now generate £30 million a year — with women making up 80% of members. British Flowers Week is celebrating both the flowers and the women behind them, while highlighting the sector’s economic and environmental impact. Nuala is joined by two women behind Flowers From the Farm, Olivia Wilson, a florist and flower farmer, and Georgie Newberry who has a flower farm in Somerset.The Government recently launched a consultation on employment rights for unpaid carers and parents of seriously ill children. It includes consideration of Hugh’s Law, named after Hugh Menai-Davies, who died aged six from cancer in 2021. His parents are campaigning for a standalone statutory entitlement to leave and pay for parents of seriously ill children. To discuss, Nuala is joined by Frances and Ceri Menai-Davies, and Professor Lorna Fraser from King’s College London, who has been researching the impact on parents of caring for a seriously or terminally ill child.Eli Davies has embarked on a nostalgic and cultural exploration of the single woman's kitchen, unpacking women’s complicated history with domesticity and how their choice to couple up may shape mealtimes and their relationships with food, cooking habits and self-care. Eli’s book The Spinster Cookbook: Culture, Politics and Pleasure in the Single Woman’s Kitchen is also a story of rebellion, explaining how cooking for one as a woman can become an act of care, defiance, pleasure, and self-expression.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

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Hello and welcome to the programme. Coming up, we look at the surge of interest in peptides. What are they? Are they safe? And is there real evidence behind the hype? The parents of Hugh Menai Davis on why they're pushing for Hugh's law, which would give extra employment protections to parents of seriously ill children.

And do you know where your flowers come from? We hear from two flower farmers about the blooming industry for women and cooking for one. Do you? Would you? Well, we find out about the table term spinster cook. But first, John Snow, the former lead presenter of Channel 4 News for more than three decades, has revealed he has Alzheimer's disease. During his career, he's traveled

the world, reporting on major stories, including the fall of the Berlin Wall, the release of Nelson Mandela, and Barack Obama's inauguration. Now he's the subject of a new Channel 4 documentary made in conjunction with the Alzheimer's Society. John Snow, a last big story, follows him as he uncovers an environmental disaster in Zambia and reflects on living with the disease. In her first broadcast interview since his diagnosis was announced, his wife, Dr. Precious Lunger, an epidemiologist with a PhD in neuroscience, joined me in the Woman's Hour studio and I started by asking her why John wanted to share his story now. He said, Precious, if I don't speak out, who will?

And because it's something that affected his own mother and affects so many people. he felt that when someone is diagnosed with Alzheimer's, you've written off. And actually, it's not as if you fall off a cliff. It's a gradual degradation of the brain. It's a disease, and it takes time. It's a disease process. So it doesn't mean you still can't contribute in the world. And he still felt that he had so much to give.

And that's why he decided to make the documentary. That struck me as well. You say that at the beginning of the documentary that were people striking John off? Yes. We felt that. It wasn't really due to malice or anything. It was more a lack of understanding and knowledge about what happens when you have a dementia. And I think also with fear, people are fearful of Alzheimer's because we fear that we might get it ourselves.

And with fear comes stigma. And so with stigma, you either want to look away or to cover up. And making this film, I guess we wanted people to start having a dialogue and a conversation. about it. Yeah. John retired in December 2021. So how did you distinguish what was going on between, I suppose, the loss of his sense of purpose and an awareness that something else was happening? After he retired, John went to a deep depression.

He missed his colleagues. He missed work. And that lasted for at least six months. And it was after that period of that deep depression. and we now know that actually depression is also a risk factor for developing a dementia itself. As he was coming out of that, I noticed that he was more forgetful. There were subtle differences that, as a neuroscientist,

I picked it up and I thought something is going on here. And that's when we went for tests. I spoke to friends and colleagues working in the field. And it was really helpful to get that information to spurring. us on to start getting the test done. I find it very interesting that you're a neuroscientist. I wonder, is there a part of your brain that's analysing it in one way? And then obviously you're having the human experience because this is happening to you and

your husband. Yes. Yeah. So how I cope and what's helped me is to try and have a better understanding of what is going on and looking for sources of information. When John was diagnosed, we were given a booklet from the Alzheimer's Society. and it explained all the things we need to do to prepare for the future because John was diagnosed very early stage.

And so that actual understanding that at least we can seek the help early on, there are medications that you can take to help manage the symptoms. There is no cure for Alzheimer's at the moment, but you can manage the symptoms for as long as possible and that gives a better quality of life for you and the family. John saw a specialist in 2023, but he wasn't diagnosed immediately. What happened? He did the cognitive tests which he passed with flying colours.

And then we had to have a different sort of scan. We had done an initial scan which didn't show anything. And we could have stopped at that point. But I also had a history of the occasional behaviours and forgetfulness that I observed. and I'd write them down. So when we went for the tests, the second time, I had a catalogue of information. And so putting that together, it's detective work at the moment.

So putting that together, the scans, the reports from me, we were able to conclude that actually John does have Alzheimer's. When did you decide to tell your family? Oh, we waited. It was several months, actually. but it became clear that we needed help. And so I started talking about it. Because once you start talking about it, you also,

when it's out there, you're also telling yourself that this is real. It's a shock when you receive that information because it upends all the plans, it upended all the plans we had for our lives post-retirement for John. Yeah. And so it's really also for us to accept. It was for us to accept that our lives were changing and are going to be constantly changing

because the disease process is what it is, is a process. So each day is never the same. So talking about it, initially, I'd mentioned that I'd burst into tears because of feeling very emotional about it. But people, my family, particularly, have been very, very supportive and that helped a lot. And then the decision to go public, I know you started by saying, you know, John said, you know, he wants to talk about it.

But how did you feel about that? Yeah, so John is a journalist. He's used to the public. Occasionally, I was a bit nervous about it because the documentaries and insight into our daily lives. But what's helped me overcome that was the idea that I'm just one of more than million people affected by it. Because by affected, I mean the people living with Alzheimer's and the families of the people living with Alzheimer's. So that realization that actually talking about it might help others, it helped, it helped me get over that nervousness of telling our story.

And also, it's not the end. We look for opportunities to have a positive life to enjoy ourselves in the moment. You say you want this film to be a story about love, laughter and acknowledging that times are hard. So how do you find balance as a spouse, a carer and a parent? And when do you take time for yourself?

It's hard. I try to at least once a month to find time for myself a weekend. I also have a job running a health tech startup. And so there are those juggling needs. I think like many women, we're always juggling different responsibilities, right? It's hard. I'm fortunate to have siblings, I have an

older sister. My sister, Pauline, who's amazing, reminds me to just take a pause and a breather, even if it's doing a bit of yoga in the morning or in the evenings. I try and make that time. How do you then think about the future? First off, it takes time. So there was confusing and processing the memories of this is where we thought we were going to be, this is where we are. So it's that acceptance of, okay, with what we are, with where we are, what can we do? It's not about surviving. How can we live and thrive?

Yeah. Right. And so now we tend to live more in the moment. And John is very good at living in the moment. I think that's also maybe that's part of the plus. of having that Alzheimer's, he tends to be really very present when he's there. And yeah, so finding that balance. It's a constant juggle because every day is different.

So you're always having to adjust. There is another moment at the beginning, which is you're talking about how the brain is changing and that is piano playing has improved. Not amazing, yeah. Yeah, in what way? He has more variations. So John tends to extemporize. He loves Bach.

So you'll remember, John was a chorister, so he'll remember something he heard a long time ago. Then he'll play the piano. So his mother was a pianist. He'll play the piano. And he used to just play more or less the same tunes. But now his piano playing, he plays different chords. He plays different melodies.

He puts them together differently. And he plays for longer and more creatively. John says there are moments when it pops up, but it's not all day, everyday condition. And that's what I cling on to. How is he? And what does he enjoy doing now? He loves going on adventures.

He loves beautiful places. He loves travelling, which is interesting because sometimes some of the advice you get is keep the routine. I think because John was a journalist and for him travelling was going to see the world, it's something he still enjoys doing and that's one of the things we still do.

And listening to music, his love for music hasn't gone away. And what advice would you give to others in a similar situation? And I know that's the point of this documentary to make people think and be able to talk about something that's stigmatised more publicly. What would you say to other people? and what would you want people to take away from the film? I'd want to say to people that there's always hope,

hope for a life well lived. That's what I'd want to say to people. And that look for sources of support. When John was diagnosed, we were given a booklet from the Alzheimer's Society and had a list of all the things that we need to do. I knew about Alzheimer's from the scientific aspect, but the practical aspect is very important because you have to manage your life practically in a day-to-day basis.

And planning for the future and simplifying is also important. And the takeaway is that it shouldn't be stigmatised. It can happen to any of us. It's nothing to be ashamed of. And getting help and speaking out makes a huge difference. Dr. Precious Lunger and John Snow, a last big story, is available to watch and stream. on Channel 4 at 8pm tonight.

And if you've been affected by any of the issues, you'll find links of support on the BBC Action Line website. Now peptides have become a new buzzword in the wellness industry. Social media influencers and some athletes and celebrities have spoken about using them for optimising performance in the gym and improving their appearance. Peptides are short chains of amino acids that often occur naturally in your body.

They include things you've heard of like insulin, insulin, collagen and GLP-1 weight loss medications. The increase in the use of GLP-1 medication has led to a surge in interest in using other peptides for health and wellness purposes. There's been an explosion of content on social media with some claiming that using peptides can have great benefits, but many of the peptides being promoted online aren't licensed or regulated. Nula spoke to BBC health reporter Ruth Clegg, who's been looking into the sudden interest

in peptide use. and speaking to some of the women who use them. But first, Adam Taylor, Professor of Anatomy at Lancaster University, who researches peptide use. Peptides aren't a new thing. They've been around for over 100 years, and you use the great example of insulin, probably the most well-known peptide.

It's been around for over 100 years, treating, obviously, involved in managing blood sugars. Peptides, as you said, are short chains of amino acids. They are the building blocks of life, of proteins in the body, and they can be naturally occurring or they can be synthetically put together to be like the naturally occurring peptides we get in the body. And the word peptide has been around for a long time. Beauty creams, lotions and potions that we can buy in the supermarkets and shots.

It's a run-of-the-mill name. But we are now seeing, as you said, social media is becoming a rich place for peptides that aren't approved that haven't been studied. And this is the gray area that we're operating in now. And these are the ones that are causing some concern in the science. community. Okay, well Ruth, you've investigated peptide use for the BBC. What did you find? Yes, it's a fascinating area and I've been looking into it for the past few months, and I've gone down many a peptide rabbit hole, such as the wealth of information that's on social media

and across the internet. And like Professor Taylor mentioned, that they've been around for many years, and they were first used really kind of the grey market peptides, probably you're talking in 2010s when in the 2010s when bodybuilders were using them and they were used in gyms and they were used primarily for muscle growth and recovery. But they have become so much more mainstream. I'd say over the past 18 months to two years, peptide use has exploded and more and more women are using them. Partly because there's more and more of us going to the gym, we're more in the well-being

space, we're taking part in strength training and that kind of thing. but also because they are being more targeted at women. So, for example, there's a copper peptide, which goes by the name, a lot of these peptides are very catchy names, GHK-C-U, which claimed for portedly is good for your skin, for your wrinkles, for anti-aging, for your hair and your nails. And I think, like we say, we kind of entered a little bit of a perfect storm in the sense that GLP-1s, the weight-lost drugs,

which are heavily regulated, they're licensed, they've gone through rigorous human trials, but people are injecting things that they've never done before and it's seen as a more normal process of putting a chemical into our body, combine that with the word peptides, and people are believing that these grey market unregulated peptides are safe. So let me come back to you, Professor. Ruth has mentioned the grey market there.

What is it? It's a grey area. So we've got these products that are being marketed. predominantly online, although you can walk into certain places across the world and buy them in person. And so they fit in this grey area where they're not regulated. So things that go into the body typically fall under a health regulator and are tried and tested through various levels of laboratory trials and tests to verify, are they saved, do they do more damage than good?

And then they move into human trials. So again, to make sure that there's no cross-reactivity and no damage to the body occurring, i.e. they need to be doing more good than potential damage or side effects. So they are grey market in that they are not regulated by anybody. And those that we see online are being marketed as research only products, not for human consumption, not for human ingestion. They come in a variety of words, but the onus is on that they are not to be put into the human body.

So people are purchasing them. They're unregulated. Nobody is able to tell us about the quality, the purity. You just take the manufacturers or the sellers word for, they are 99% pure and they are what they say on the tin. I just want to read a little from the MHRA, the agency that regulates medicine and healthcare products in the UK for the position on unregulated peptides.

They said the MHRA determines whether a product is a medicine on a case-by-case basis. This includes consideration of a number of factors, including the product's effect on the body, the way it is used and takes into account all the available evidence and relevant legal precedence. We disregard claims that products are for research purposes. If it is clear that such claims are being used as an attempt to avoid medicine's regulations,

if a product is classified as a medicine and is not appropriately authorized, we take regulatory compliance action. Is it dangerous, Professor, to use an unregulated peptide? Yes, absolutely. Many of these peptides are investigated in laboratory studies, so in dishes or in animal studies, and are shown to have some benefit in certain circumstances. What often that is taken as is that that piece of science is directly translatable

into being the same as in humans. What people don't realize is approximately somewhere between 90 and 95% of products, of therapies that are tested in animal models, are tested in laboratory models, don't make it to market because the side effects, the damage when it comes to clinical trials in humans, show that they aren't having the same benefit or they aren't having the same effect. So these products haven't been through that rigorous process.

We don't know whether they're short-term issues or there are issues that are going to amass cumulatively in the same way that alcohol, perhaps, and tobacco do after years and years of use of these products. So they're being used by people for conditions that they may or may not have self-diagnosed. They're being used in the pursuit of anti-aging. And where the MHI are talking about medicines, medicines are used to treat a specific condition that has been diagnosed. Many of these peptides are being used. These grey market peptides are being used in the pursuit of anti-aging, of anti-wrinkle. That's not a medical condition. That's just life.

You know, and we should take our hats off that people are taking an interest in their health, their wellbeing, their beauty, their aesthetics. You know, that's a really good thing. But there are better ways to try and slow the effect of aging on the body than turning yourself into a laboratory experiment. Rinkles are not a medical condition. I'll just repeat that phrase. And let me turn to you, Ruth, because you, speaking to women, did they have any concerns about the side effects or potential safety implications? There were some concerns, but to be fair, I think it felt like they were more bothered about the short-term gain, what they could see happening with their bodies over a course of a number of weeks or months,

rather than thinking about any long-term health effects. So, for example, Katie, one of the woman I spoke to, who has been on weight loss strokes and felt that peptides were the next, as she says, logical step for her to help with her skin. Now, she said she started with it very slowly. She used small amounts and began to increase it over time, each time check in whether she was having any adverse reactions. And there are reports of side effects, which is skin irritation, nausea, fatigue, digestion issues in the short. term and as Professor Taylor mentioned we don't know what those long-term issues could be. We do know that they are playing around with the way that our hormones act so there is concern that we could end up damage in our organs, we could end up with cardiovascular issues,

abnormal muscle growth. I suppose in some respects it's a wait and see to see how these chemicals react to our bodies long term. Just very briefly, Professor, how can women navigate the amount of information that they're being bombarded with. It's really difficult, particularly in the world we live in today, this interconnected social media world where everything is visible, everything is being judged on appearance, talk to people, weigh up the evidence, everything we see on social media, that's just a snapshot of what is going on. There's a lot of, particularly with AI nowadays, so you can pick up information, you can ask it what's good, what's bad, and take a balanced approach. Don't just take the information

as is presented. I think the other thing that's really important to stress is women are far more at risk of adverse reactions from these chemicals and compounds. Yeah, between 50 and 75% increased risk compared to men because of the hormonal changes that happened with menstrual cycle and another trajectory through life. Adam Taylor, Professor of Anatomy at Lancaster University and BBC health reporter Ruth Clegg speaking to new leather. Now, the actor Geraldine James has been on our screens for nearly five decades, spanning landmark TV dramas like The Jewel in the Crown and Band of Gold, alongside classical theatre in the UK and on Broadway, Radio 4 dramas and Hollywood films. You can also currently see her in The Cage on BBC IPlayer. Now she makes her

Chichester Festival Theatre debut in 45 years, the first stage adaptation of the acclaimed 2015 film. It centres on a couple preparing to celebrate 45 years of what's been a happy marriage, But news arrives from Switzerland of the discovery of a woman's body preserved for decades in a melting glacier. It's assumed to be a former girlfriend of Kate's husband, Jeff, played by Gabriel Byrne. Geraldine plays Kate, and Nula started by asking her about past lives resurfacing in relationships. We all have pasts, we bring them into our relationships, and the question that comes up in the play is, if you keep them secret, do they have eventually some sort of corrosive effect on the relationship? And the difference it makes to actually be able to talk about your life and to be open and honest with a partner.

And this history suddenly arrives in their sitting room one morning. And the ramifications of it are huge. And increasingly so they discover Kate keeps asking questions and finding out more and more about this relationship, which she'd known about, but it had never been important within this relationship with her and Jeff. So more and more comes out. And as more and more comes out, she sort of sinks further and further into a kind of despair of just needing to know what the truth is behind all these, you know, why did he say that? Why didn't he say that?

And I think people will relate to that very strongly. Definitely will resonate. How do you understand Kate, the character you've been. play as being shaken so profoundly, even so long into a marriage with a man that she believes she knows really well? I think the length of the relationship is what it's about. She has trusted him all these years and suddenly this story comes up and it just comes up as a glimmer and then throughout the play more and more is revealed.

And she is thrown back on what have our... given up my life to this man and it's been is it a lie? How much the lie is it? Are there more lies? So it sort of goes quite deep and it goes right to the heart of her and to him. I mean, he's an amazing character, Jeff. And Gabriel's pretty good as well. And it's a wonderful, it's wonderfully truthful and unhysterical and it's just about people who have got very used to talking to each other and telling the truth to each other, suddenly going, well, if that wasn't that, then what was that? And, you know, you sort of opening up and going further and further into the ramifications of this event. So these very deep feelings, all happening

in a domestic setting with the mundane details of day-to-day life and of coupled them that has gone before them for decades. But I was wondering afterwards, why do you think so much story be it on stage or TV or film is centered on new romance instead of this profound and complex what would I call it kind of concept of a long

marriage or a long relationship I mean there's so much to dive into there it is fertile ground exactly and I think we have got into the habit of only being interested in people who are young and immediately and pretty and people we can all fall in love with.

And what has happened, I think, recently is that people have become more interested in people who have lived lives, who are living lives and finding out about them because our audiences have lived lives and do relate and can relate to these stories and actually love them. I played Roslyn at Stratford a couple of years ago. And we were all in our seven.

And it just, it gave that extraordinary text, which is essentially about young love. It gave it such an extraordinary sort of echo that you could feel, in the audience, you could feel people responding to it very strongly because they've been there. We've all, we all remember what it was like to fall in love. So, so it's, I'm thrilled that finally drama in whatever form is beginning to deal with older women properly and long may last. Yeah. Indeed.

You know, I was really interested to read that I think when you hit 50, you felt the rolls were drying up somewhat, but then an explosion of them came when you were 60? Yes, I have no idea why, but certainly there was a sort of doldrum around 50. And it's such a mark, it's such a big line on the ground, 50. And I remember walking over it and going, oh, that's it. And it was slightly coming from me. I thought there won't be any work after 50. And the great Judy Denchies and Helen Mirrens and Maggie Smith have blasted a trail that threw into older age.

And God bless them, because they proved that older women can be interesting, can be funny, can be sexy, can be worth watching. And they've made it, I believe, they have made it much easier for the rest of them. Why do you think, I agree with you that I think there can be a line in the sand around 50 that were surrounded by messages about it and maybe some of it internalised as well. Sometimes I wonder, is it because

we physically do change as women around 50 when menopause is on the scene? Well, when we become invisible, you mean? We're hoping not to be. But I think, I'm just wondering, why you think, is it related to menopause? Do you think that line in the sand at 50 that you experienced as well?

Like why you think rolls might have dried up? Any thoughts on it? I'm not sure. I had a very happy and easy menopause. I hardly knew it was happening. So I'm not sure. I can't even remember how old I was. I think I was 52. So I didn't relate to that specifically as being menopausal. But I think it's an idea. I think the word, I think 50 is huge.

It's the half. You know, it's just, I think, rings enormous, alarm bells. And I think for producers traditionally, produce, oh, goodness me, she's 50. Well, can't we find somebody who's 47? You know, it's sort of, it's easier. 49 and a half. 49 and a half is perfect, exactly. Before I let you go, though, I know you appeared on Desert Island Discs about 20 years

ago, in your 50s, here on Radio 4. And you did speak about your family and your upbringing and also the impact your mother's alcohol addiction did have on you. You're now a long-standing patron for the National Association for Children of Alcoholics. And I wondered what that means to you. Nakoa means a huge amount to me. It's a fantastic organisation. They help so many children. It's slightly similar to this play. If the play is about silence, if the play is about what you speak about secrets, my family, I was brought up in a secret household. we did not speak about mummy's headaches, as they were called. And it was very, very tough and very difficult.

And I made the decision to openly talk about it on Desert Island Disc because I didn't want to tell a journalist who would then interpret it in their own way. Of course, subsequently, journalists have forever sort of taken it and twisted it around and maybe I shouldn't have talked about it. But I'm glad I have because I love my mother so much. She was a fabulous woman who happened to, into this terrible illness, which she managed to get herself out of. And it was quite tough growing up, and it was about secrecy.

So there's a lot in this play that's about how different would it have been for us as three young children if we had talked about it in the family. If we'd been able to sit down and go, why is what's going on with mummy? Can we do anything? You know, and we couldn't. We was all absolutely held in tight, tense silence, which is dreadful for children. Geraldine James there, who's on stage in 45 years at the Chichester Festival Theatre until the 11th of July. Again, if you have been affected by any of the issues mentioned, there are links on the BBC Action Line website.

And remember that you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day. If you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week, all you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, many of us now give a lot of thought to where our food comes from. But how much attention are you paying to where your flowers come from? Did you know about 80% are imported? But the British cut flower industry is having a moment, with new recognition from the government

and demand for homegrown flowers rising. As part of British Flowers Week, the UK Trade Association, Flowers from the farm, celebrating flowers and championing the women growing them. And one more 80% stat for you, buying flowers grown here could reduce the carbon footprint of your flowers by 80%. So say two women behind flowers from the farm.

Olivia Wilson is a florist and flower farmer and Georgie Newbury, who has a flower farm in Somerset. Nula started by asking Georgie why we should be buying British flowers. Well, for a start, you buy locally grown flowers and they are likely to have less than 20% of the carbon footprint of anything imported. Of course, there are great growers around the world. But the minute you put a flower in an airplane and flight across the world, in an airplane which often flies back to its home country empty, that's not going to do anything for the carbon footprint of those flowers. And there's a biosecurity thing.

If you buy flowers that are grown in the UK, they won't have perforce being dealt a chemical blow to kill off any kinds of bugs or insects or invertebrates that might be living in them. So if you buy a flower from me or one of my flowers from the farm colleagues, you may find an aphid on it. And that's marvellous because that means that your local ladybird

will have something for lunch. I thought you're going to say your local lady has been working very hard, growing your flowers. Olivia, let me turn to you. Here's one little factoid that I found out yesterday that the scent should be different from British flowers. Totally because often actually,

the amount of scent that a flower has is directly related to its far's life. So often flowers which are bred to be imported. Britbox has the best of British TV, period. Let's get started. The best mystery, period. I like a good detective story. The best romance, period.

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Join millions, saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's Apply. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC.

Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. They are specifically bred to have less scent so that they can last longer in your vase, they can survive the transportation. And that means that because we are growing flowers, which haven't had that process, which aren't being bred in the same way. They are often much more centred, which is what makes them, I think, so powerful because they really connect us to nature. I know what I have picked up flowers before.

I've definitely seen import from Kenya or off in the Netherlands. Actually, it was two that would strike me. But I was walking by a shop yesterday. I did lean over. There was a bunch of sunflowers. And it did say British grown. But I was wondering, how difficult or easy is it to find British flowers, Olivia? Well, I think labelling is certainly something that would be really helped.

to have more labelling so people were able to... That's interesting because some, the first group that I went to, I couldn't figure out where they were from. This was just yesterday as I leaned over. Yeah, I think it's certainly complicated if you have a mixed bouquet because sometimes flowers will have come all over the world, which I think is something that people aren't aware from, aware about really, because, you know, the roses might have come from Kenya,

the filler flower might have come from somewhere else. So I think that is complicated. But generally, there are supermarkets, you are able to get some British flowers there. but I think that actually increasingly you should find that there is a local flower farm near most people. And actually you can find where to buy flowers on the flowers from the farm website. There's a really useful flower finder. And actually it's increasingly easy for you to get hold of British-grown flowers. But the question would be, and Georgie, let me throw this over to you.

At the minute I mention flowers, people say, oh, they're so expensive. Is it more expensive to buy British flowers? I would argue not now. I think back in the day, perhaps they were. perhaps we were better at valuing our time and the effort that went into it. And, you know, in the UK, wages are protected by law. So if people are growing flowers for sale, the amount that they have to pay themselves in order to be able to live is protected by the government.

So if you buy very, very inexpensive flowers that have been flown in from aboard, don't think, gosh, these are great, these are cheap. Think instead, wow, how much was the person who grew them, harvested them, process them, wrap them, sent them on an aeroplane, and I'm still only paying whatever small amount of money it is compared to those I might buy in the UK. I would say, however, that locally grown flowers are now, I'd say pretty much like for like on the pricing

because world events have made it more expensive to bring perishable goods into the UK and with the price of oil and the dreaded Brexit and wars around the world. actually locally grown flowers are often a really good and not badly priced option. I know you say dreaded Brexit. Other peoples were very happy that it happened. That is your opinion.

Let me turn to women, however. Obviously, I have two of you here. 80%. I was really surprised by that figure of the amount of independent growers that are part of your industry group. Georgie, you were a writer for American Vogue. How am I looking at you with your apron on and a big bunch of flowers behind you in your rustic? country house. Well, I think you know, the dreams you have in your 20s may not be the dreams that you have

in your 50s. You know, life kind of throws you Googlies. And I found one day that I was no longer working for American Bogue and I was not living in Paris. Instead, I was living in Somerset and I had to find something to do to make a living. And I grew too many sweet peas. And I think six peas is a good example. Often people find they can either grow sweetmeat or not at all. So I had two weeks, and it became completely obviously to me that I should sell them. And that was 16 years ago, and the flower farm has just evolved since then. I think there's lots of fortunate things have happened around flower farming since I started. Social media has made it possible for small businesses like mine and other people growing from home

to sell their business direct to the customer online for free. And without that, I'm not sure that I would have been able to do what I do. But it's really easy now. You can farm your garden. You don't have to have an enormous amount of space. You can specialize in something that grows really well for you. We need more flower farmers. The market is there for us.

So actually, if there's something you can grow and that you can grow well, then the chances are that people in your neighbourhood will want to buy it. And you don't need to necessarily be the grower of all things. When I started, I felt I had to grow everything because I didn't know. know, where else I would get British grown flowers. I mean, I've got five people within my really immediate neighbourhood growing flowers, and one of them is a specialist, daily a grower. I grow quite a lot of roses.

Between us, we're supplying our local market. And there are now flower hubs popping up around the country, which are collaborative organisations with local flower farms getting together to be able to sell larger quantities to florists who are used to being able to order larger quantities at a time. and it's working really, really well. We have to be collaborative. It's an extraordinarily not competitive industry.

So interesting. SIC codes, standard industrial classification. Why do they matter, Olivia? Well, they are the most important thing for sort of recognising for cut flower farming as an industry in its own right. I think often what's interesting with governmental statistics is that they lump a lot of different things in together

and it's sort of impossible to differentiate between the fact that there is this real resurgence of cut flower growing in the UK. And having that SIC codes means that we can identify each other, identify ourselves and the economic contribution that we're making and also in the future, the ecological contribution. So it's a really pivotal and exciting moment. So this is also being awarded just recently by the government to the British cut flower sector.

And, you know, as I was thinking about flowers, why do we love them so much, Olivia? Because I was thinking, like if we have a lovely colleague who's leaving, we get them a bunch of flowers, sometimes at the birth of a child, or the death of a loved one or a wedding. Why do you think there's such a marker in our society for something significant? I think the relationship between humans and flowers is actually intrinsic. It goes back from time immemorial.

It's represented in cultures across the planet. And I think that that is something that's why I'm really glad to be talking about it today because I think sometimes flowers can be dismissed as frivolous. But actually they really do represent the most important moments of our life. lives, the burst, the death, the grief, the sorrow, the joy. And I think they say the words that we cannot. I think that they're actually really quite important. And that's why it's so amazing to be celebrating British Flowers Week and celebrating the season-led florists and the growers that are really championing this resurgence. Flower farmers, Olivia Wilson and Georgie Newbury,

talking to Noola. Now, it's every parent's worst nightmare, a child becoming seriously ill. And when that illness stretches over months, with repeated hospital stays and round the care, how do parents balance being there for their child while remaining in work? The government launched a consultation seeking views on employment rights for unpaid carers and parents of seriously ill children. Included in the consultation is consideration of Hugh's law, which was named in memory of Hugh Menai Davis, who died when he was six from cancer in 2021. His parents have been campaigning for standalone statutory entitlement to leave and pay for

parents of seriously ill children. Neula spoke to Francis and Kerry Menai Davis, along with Lorna Fraser, Professor of palliative care and Child Health at King's College London and NIHR research professor who's been researching the impact on parents of caring for a seriously or terminally ill child. She began by asking Francis why Hughes Law is needed.

There are so many different reasons why Hughes Law is needed. For me, it's really important because as a parent, the only thing you can do is be by your child's bedside. You don't have a choice. You need to be there to sign off for medical procedures. So nobody else can be there anyway. But as a mother, I didn't want to leave my child's bedside. When I was pregnant, I feel there were all these rights afforded to me. And you see other women afforded rights as well with maternity leave, maternity pay, jobs. security and protection. Yet if you find yourself in this terrible position where your child is sick, you will find that there is nothing. And it's fundamentally wrong. We believe that parents deserve

better. And that's why we're campaigning for Hughes Law. So what would you like? What would it look like to you? Like a one-time payment or standalone payment for a parent? So we have the consultation going through at the moment. So it's giving different options and variables. Our charity, it's never you, has proposed three months of payment. There are already businesses taking this up. So some businesses have offered this flexibly throughout the year, which is probably, in my opinion, a good idea

because caring for a seriously old child is very unpredictable. Of course. So that caters to the unpredictable nature of a child, having that flexibility, I think, is really important. But it's not just about the financial side. As I was saying, with maternity, when you take time to look after your baby, you have that job protection to come back to that same job. And that's another aspect of Hugh's law, of Hughes law, is having that same security and protection and that stability because at such an uncertain time, you've got. so many things going on. Your sole focus should be on your child, not worrying about whether you can return to your job after they've finished their treatment or, sadly, in our case, passed away. Yes, and I want to reiterate that I'm very sorry for your loss. You was diagnosed with soft tissue

cancer in 2020. And I'm wondering, Kerry, how did you find that juggle between being in hospital and balancing work? And I know you've spoken to so many other parents. And this is why you set up a charity to try and help them. Yeah, absolutely. We were fortunate, I'll say fortunate, someone's diagnosis of cancer, but Hugh started chemotherapy

on the first day of the second lockdown. So we are theoretically paid to be by the bedside with furlough and other schemes. But when we saw COVID restrictions lifted, we saw those same parents being pressured back to work. Right.

Trying to make a decision where take a Zoom call next to their child and having chemotherapy in their bed, taking important calls, getting reports done. And those pressures compounded on a really devastating situation. I've always admitted that I was financially okay during the period when Hugh is being ill.

But it's watching other parents go through it. That's the really difficult side of it. And since we started the charity in 2022, the amount of messages and emails from parents that were suffering because they've got no stability, no financial income, no job protection, really think. Some might say there are certain benefits, time off for family independence or DLA, disability, living allowance.

There could be financial support for carers allowance. Why are those benefits not sufficient? Because, for example, disability living allowance, you can only apply for it three months after a child's diagnosis. And it's based on the child's needs. There's no specific right, apart from carers leave, which is five days unpaid. there's no specific right that allows the parents to legally be by the bedside of the child in hospital. And it's not like you get a notice of this. He was diagnosed on a Friday.

He was having surgery on the Saturday. You need to jump into action. And, you know, Francis and I have always said, if you're a parent with a child, there is nowhere else you are going to be other than their bedside. So no matter what the employer says to you, you're going to be by your child's bedside. So what we're asking for is something on a statutory footing that protects the employee. employer and the employee so they can be where the matters most. I understand. Let me bring in Professor Lorna Fraser here who's been researching the impact on

parents. You've spoken with hundreds of parents with experience of this. What did you find about the impact on the parent going through something, which is devastating, I'm sure, for them? Unfortunately, the experience that Francis and Kerry are talking about is not unusual. and the parents that we've interviewed of obviously talking about the profound impact of receiving such a devastating diagnosis for their child, but also the impact on their own health and well-being. We've shown that mothers have a higher risk of mental health

and physical health conditions, and there's no standardised offer of psychological support to parents in the position that Kerry and Francis were in. In terms of financial support, we interviewed 55 bereaved parents, so parents, after sadly their childhood down, and they talked a lot about the impact on family finances and their own employment, as well as the added cost burden of caring for a child with a serious illness.

It was real pressures of juggling work. Now, while some employers were able to be more flexible, others couldn't be or chose not to be because there wasn't that legal basis on which their policies in place. But also the support that was offered to parents from hospitals and from charities is not equal. Some hospitals will provide free parking, some children, charities provide meals, etc. But it's not equal. And we know that children, there are more children with serious illness

from areas living in areas of high deprivation and also from our ethnic minority communities. So that cumulative impact on the family is quite profound. And the other thing that we just want to highlight is that the financial impact continues after a child dies. There's only two weeks statutory bereavement leave from the government if your child dies. And you have to have been in work to be eligible for that. How realistic, Lorna, do you think it will be, and likely, perhaps for the government and employers to take Hughes Law on? And I know it's a consultation of exactly what iteration it might have, what level, what numbers, you know, how long, for example, or how much? I think it is if we took the example where you removed the three-month eligibility for a disability living allowance, you're talking about paying three months more to families.

but I would really urge people to think and the government to think about the longer term benefits of enabling parents to stay, to have rights to return to work. I've worked with lots of parents who have had to be out of work for five, ten years caring for their child. And their ability to get back into work is really hampered by the gap that they have on their CV as well as the terrible experience that they've gone through. So I think if the government took a medium and long-term view on the impact of the additional financial support, I think it would soon show that actually it was very much in everybody's benefit for that to happen. Professor Lorna Fraser and Francis and Kerry Menai-Davis speaking to Noola there. A Department of Work and Pension spokesperson said, Our thoughts are with Francis and Kerry Meni-Davis.

Ensuring disabled children and those with long-term health conditions get the support they need is important. to us, which is why we've taken action to meet the rise in demand for child DLA by increasing staffing levels. We also understand the huge difference carers make, which is why we've delivered the biggest ever cash increase in the earnings threshold and uprated the benefit whilst delivering the first sustained above inflation increase to universal credit. And if you've got experience whether as a parent, carer or employer and would like to contribute to the government's consultation, which closes on the first of September, there is a link on Monday. Sunday's episode of the Woman's Our website.

Now, what is a spinster cook? How do you look after yourself as a woman when you find yourself outside of the conventional couple or family dynamic? Well, Ellie Davis has written the spinster cookbook, culture, politics and pleasure in the single woman's kitchen. It's a cookbook of sorts, but it's definitely a manifesto for living differently and how cooking for one as a woman can become an act of care, defiance, pleasure and self-expression. started by asking her whether she was reclaiming the word spinster.

Yeah, I mean, reclaiming is definitely part of it. But in that reclamation, I want to be quite careful that we're not shying away from some of the unease and sort of discomfort that people have with the word. Because I think that's a really interesting thing to sit with and think about because it has been such a stigma for such a long time to be a single unmarried woman. and it carries all of these associations. And my use of the word spinster is kind of deliberately provocative in a way and naming a lot of those uncomfortable associations that we have with it. And also the word spinster, its origins are in women who, it was an occupation, women who spun wool and often supported themselves, ran their own businesses.

And so I really like the term because it exists in its own terms rather than being in relation to a relationship status. There's an absence in single, unattached, uncoupled, all of these. There's something missing, whereas spinster kind of... Well, they were empowered, weren't they? Yeah, takes up its own space. So what or who is a spinster cook? A spinster cook is someone who is using the kitchen as a way of understanding

and thinking about the life that you're building as a single woman. It can be a space of joy, of play, of indulge. of indulgence, but it can also be a space of defiance, rejection. You can choose not to eat, you can just choose to have a piece of toast for dinner, or you can spend all day preparing a lovely indulgent feast for yourself. But the point is that all of these things are possible because you're living alone and outside of a certain sort of structure and framework. But you wrote this in the aftermath of a breakup and you now choose to be single.

So how has that changed your own approach to food? So for a long time, it was difficult to start with because I've always loved cooking and I've always had a really, you know, good relationship with cooking. And after that particular relationship finished, it was a long-term relationship, we were together for 12 years, I felt kind of uneasy. I had to step back from it for a while because it was very bound up with that particular relationship with a certain type of domesticity, a certain type of like coupled domesticity that I was trying to figure out how I felt about.

And also I was just, you know, when we have a relationship breakup, I was overwhelmed by grief. And obviously feeding yourself, looking after yourself in those circumstances can be really, really tricky. So there was a real period of figuring things out to go back to the toast in my first chapter, which is called vodka and toast, that moment of realisation of I don't have to make dinner and no one could make me. I can cook and eat on my own terms. And so not having to negotiate with someone else's tastes or schedules or those kinds of things. there's a real freedom. Yeah, yeah, what happens when you remove the domesticity

and it's not about duty or feeding a partner? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Your older sister comes into the book. Yes. And meals you have had with her, why? So she was a very important figure in my life when I was a teenager. And I'm the youngest of four, and all of them have kind of helped me along

and looked after me in various ways. But Hannah was this very specific example in the 90s. It was a certain period in life. London. She was living in these rented flats and leading a very sort of fun, interesting life and sort of demonstrated this way of living. Freedom. Freedom. Absolutely. And part of that was through food. You know, it was things like pasta and pesto, which were novelties in the 90s, a jarred sort of pasta sauce that, you know, we'd have before going out for a few glasses of wine. And there was something about the tastes, the sort of combination of tastes and food and drink.

that was really kind of introduced me to this way of sort of occupying the world and having a nice time. And I guess our palate was changing in the UK then as well, quite dramatically. Interesting you say Pesto, when I first moved to London, very young, I made myself homemade Pesto from scratch because why not? And somebody was really surprised by that. I said, what, just for yourself? Pesto for yourself? And it made me realise, yeah, because actually, it's an act of, it's an act of love nourishing yourself. Yeah, it really is.

I was having a conversation at an event last night about this, and someone was saying what you would say to someone who's struggling to kind of cook for themselves and struggling to see the point in it. You know, obviously, not everyone's going to love cooking, that's fine. But it's a way of understanding your own pleasures and what makes you happy. Yeah. So if you can figure that out, what flavour combinations you like, and even if that is just some anchovies with a bit of French bread

or, you know, a certain type of salad with a particular. dressing, that's just such a wonderful thing to be able to give yourself. Absolutely. Or a Victoria sponge. Yeah. Whatever it might be. I'm very good at punishing myself in other ways, but not through food. That is pleasure.

It's such a good book because it really makes you sit and think. And one section is when you talk about your relationship with a dining table, I found really interesting. How do you feel about eating at the table? I don't like eating at the table. And I fully respect people who do. If I'm having people over for dinner, it's nice to sit around the table. There's a way that it can be a positive and fun experience.

But I think I have certain associations with it as a slightly confining space somewhere that's a kind of work space in a way. And I talk about this a little bit. It's where, you know, the business, if you're in a couple, you talk about your plans for the weekend and what you're going to do. And families are, you know, discussing what needs to be done in the household, homework. and I landed on these sort of interpretations of the dinner party after I was thinking of, I was questioning my own discomfort with the dinner table. I don't set a place for myself if I'm cooking. Don't need to.

I sit on the sofa and watch TV. It's a joy. Yeah, I'm sorry, TV dinners, the best. Absolutely. I feel very at peace with that. I don't feel guilty about not. Listen, you are in good company. No one is shaming you.

It's good. Right, I'm going to read these messages coming in. Michelle in Nottingham says, Oh, give me a perfect fluffy omelet and a cold glass of pino grigio. Easy, quick, filling and less washing up. Eaten at the dining table with a book to hand, also lovely, means a less stressful end of the day. Kim in Warwickshire wrote to say, I've been single all my life and I embrace my singledom. I have no one else to please but myself.

I love it. I have never used a delivery food service and only rarely use ready meals preferring to batch cook freeze. I cook what I want, when I want, and I presume you can eat when you want as well. Absolutely, yeah, that's one of the nice things you can follow your hunger and your instincts about food and eat at times that suit you and not other people. Don't know about you, but that has made me hungry. Ellie Davis there. On Monday's programme, former SNP MP Joanna Cherry speaks to Nula about what she describes as her tumultuous decade in Scottish politics. And we'll be discussing mini-golf.

Did you know it has feminist roots? We'll be hearing all about it as a new playable art exhibition opens, embracing the game's female founders. Join Nula on Monday at 10 a.m. to find out more. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Zandi, happy anniversary.

What are you talking about? Have I missed something? Yes, Zandi, you have. We are over a year into making WhatsApp docs. You didn't even get me a card. Is it really over a year? It is. Think of all the episodes we've done. How to look after our feet, our shopping. shoulders, our hips, our teeth. We've explored snoring, cholesterol, the immune system, endometriosis.

All with the help of expert guests. I think it's fair to say we have plundered the world of health and well-being, equipping ourselves and our listeners, with the best information out there on how to look after our minds, our bodies, our souls even. And we're not stopping, aren't we? We're most certainly not, Sond. We have a lot of new topics coming up. From tinnitus to acne, crying, male fertility, we are holding steadfast in our mission. to sort facts from fiction, debunking wellness myths along the way, and you can find all of our previous episodes of WhatsApp docs in the feed on BBC Sounds. And don't forget to subscribe on BBC Sounds and turn on the notifications

so you don't miss any of these upcoming episodes. Britbox has the best of British TV, period. Let's get started. The best mystery, period. I like a good detective story. The best romance, period. This is a book that will open the heart. Mary Bennett.

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