Woman's Hour - Dr Rosemary Coogan, Contraceptive Pill, Failing the 11+

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Dr Rosemary Coogan has been selected as a career astronaut by the European Space Agency (ESA), becoming the first British woman to join their astronaut corps. She joins Emma in her first in-depth BBC interview to discuss the tough selection process, upcoming training and hopes for her first mission.On Monday’s Woman’s Hour, we heard from the American TV show host Ricki Lake who has produced a new documentary The Business of Birth Control. The programme looks at the side effects of the hormonal contraceptive pill and it’s relationship with women’s liberty. Today Emma Barnett is joined by Dr Helen Munro, the Vice-President of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare.A cross-party coalition is launching a campaign to abolish the 11 plus entry exams. One of the members of the campaign is Jackie Malton, known for her success in the Metropolitan Police, and for being the real-life inspiration for the character DCI Jane Tennison in Prime Suspect. Despite getting two masters degrees and a doctorate, she still feels ashamed about failing her 11 plus exam. Jackie joins Emma Barnett.We hear the first major speech from Camilla, Queen Consort, as she hosts a reception on violence against women and girls.A listener we are calling Christina contacted us after she heard a recent documentary on Radio 4 about benzodiazepines or Street Valium. Christina recognised what she heard. Her daughter, who we are calling Beatrice, became addicted to Xanax after taking it to deal with the extreme anxiety she experienced after the coronavirus lockdown. Beatrice has given us permission for her story to be told. Christina joins Emma Barnett to discuss her experiences.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma Pearce(photo credit: ESA - P. Sebirot)

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. Today, Dr Rosemary Coogan joins me, the first female astronaut from the UK to be picked by the European Space Agency for her first in-depth BBC interview. Can't wait to hear what she has to say. With the help of one of you, our listeners, we're going to hear about some of the untold side effects

on the young in our society from successive lockdowns during the COVID-19 pandemic. It's a very powerful story indeed, so stay with us for that. And as Camilla, the Queen Consort, in her first major speech in her new role, chooses to highlight what she describes as a global pandemic of violence against women. You will hear some of that address from yesterday afternoon. But our first story today is about a new campaign launching tomorrow with cross-party political support to abolish the infamous 11 plus exam.

Even the mention of it may have you quaking, or perhaps you've got good memories of it. I don't know, it may have been a moment of validation in your family and in your life. My first guest, Jackie Moulton, probably best known as the inspiration for Helen Mirren's police officer character in the TV show Prime Suspect, who despite her major accomplishments and reputation as a female trailblazer in both the policing world and TV world, says the shame of failing that exam still haunts her all these years on. And we will get into the details of whether that's a good thing to abolish this exam or not in just a moment and her story. We're going to hear from Jackie in just a moment. But I'd love to give you the opportunity

to hear what still haunts you. Was it a particular failure? Was it a test you didn't pass? Was it a moment you wish you could undo? Maybe it was from your youth and it still just hangs around in your mind. Maybe it spurred you on, though, and you ended up quite grateful to that moment in a different way. Or perhaps, as some of what Jackie may say in a moment, you thought it was a needless experience. Do get in touch with me here at Woman's Hour. The number is 84844. That's the number you need to text.

Text to charge your standard message rate. I have to say my grade two piano failure was a pretty close run thing. Failing my driving test twice, only to pass the third time. I'm not sure that's improved me generally, but we'll see. But they stay with you, these things, and I could give you more examples. Don't worry, I've got a litany of failures to share if you want to hear them, but I'd like to hear a bit about yours

and what haunts you, because some of them, they bounce off you, some of them, they stay with you. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through the Women's Hour website, or send a WhatsApp message or voice note, different number, 03700 100 444. Do get in touch. Looking forward to hearing your stories and also your views on this.

As I say, my first guest today, she's an unusual combination, a pioneer of British policing and TV. Jackie Moulton joined the police force in Leicestershire in the 70s, quickly rising through the ranks of a male-dominated police force, becoming one of only three female detective chief inspectors in the Metropolitan Police. All this despite facing intense bullying and harassment from many of her colleagues as both an openly gay woman

and a whistleblower against police corruption, which she's spoken about and written about before. She's perhaps best known for being the real life inspiration behind DCI Jane Tennyson, that hugely popular character from Prime Suspect, for which Jackie was a script consultant. On top of all of that, just to add in, and it's relevant here because we're going to get to failure in a moment, she's got two master's degrees, an honorary doctorate, she's also penned a memoir, and yet there's a shame about failing her 11 plus entrance exam to grammar school. She's joining this campaign that launches tomorrow called

Time's Up for the Test, which is calling for the abolition of the 11 plus. Sorry to labour the shame there, Jackie, but let's go there. What happened when you were approaching this? And had those in your family or your closest people around you, had they passed it? Yes. Yes. I was the youngest of three and a bit of a tomboy. And I was always playing football and stuff. I loved sports. Anyway, my brother and my sister both passed and they went to the top grammar schools in Leicester. My sister, especially bright, she went to Wigston Grammar and my parents were so proud that these their children had gone to the secondary modern school, sorry to the grammar school

so when it came to me I took this envelope home and there was this kind of feeling of disappointment you know and yeah and I remember kind of hearing my parents say well what are we going to do with her type of thing and then my father decided that they were they were they were they could send me to a convent called it uh emington hall in leicester it was catholic playing and run by all the nuns i was church of england i just thought I can't see how these nuns are going to play football and stuff so I kind of just ticked this box randomly on purpose to fail it and um

but what it was it is that shame you feel less than inadequate a sense of failure and a sense of failure has sat on my shoulder now you mentioned earlier mentioned earlier on, Emma, about, you know, did it do you good as well? And to be fair, I had like a nemesis on one shoulder and my authentic self, the driver, on the other. So it did, that failure did drive me. I've got to be really, really honest about that. But at the back of your head is this voice of failing and stuff and the

police offered me a scholarship to go to university for three years and um i turned it down i turned and i have huge regrets and i turned it down because i thought if they pay me for three years to go to university and i failed the damn thing you know so i thought all right i won't put myself through do you think that was linked to to failing yes yeah oh no no definitely definitely definitely linked definitely yeah so so a fear of failure was instilled very early on yes fear of failure and you would say that had erred on the unhealthy side rather than some of what was taught about failure which is it can make you it can it can uh make you think perhaps I'm going to do something in a different way and spur you on to feel better about the next one

if you then succeed. No, the opposite, absolutely. And I think we also have to put this in context. So it was 1962 and the kids, you know, parents and the success, you know, post-war and all of that, hugely, hugely important, hugely. And the pride that parents had that their child, in fact, my mum used to take my sister shopping on a Saturday and sometimes make her wear the uniform.

Oh, really? Yes, she did. She did that. She was so proud that my sister had gone to Wichita Grammar School. and sometimes make her wear the uniform. Oh, really? Yes, she did. She did. She was so proud that my sister had gone to Wigston Grammar School. You see, my sister, she wanted to go to a smaller school called Collegiate or Equi-Grammar. And my mum said, no, no, you've got to go to Wiggy. You've got to go to Wigston.

And, of course, you know, it didn't do her any good either, going to that grammar school, because she would have fared better in a smaller school. It's interesting. There's a message right at the top that's come in from one of our listeners saying my sister's shame of failing the 11 plus led her to being unable to connect with her two siblings that did pass it her sense of failure stays with her still today despite being in her 80s which is really powerful to hear as well. Very, very powerful. So that was why I did go to university much later on. And, you know, you shouldn't have external validation.

I know that in order to feel better about yourself. But that was an external validation. It was hugely important to me, Emma, hugely important. Looking at this, this campaign, time's up for the test. There is cross-party politically support for this. The likes of the Mayor for Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham, is one of the other supporters, the former Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke is also another name.

What do you think about the reasons for getting rid of it, though? What's your view on that? each will come with their own no well i mean one of the reasons that i can only kind of relate to myself is that how do you define a child's future at 11 that's very very young and i was a summer child so my birthday was in july which made me even more behind because i'm nearly a year behind already you know born in the summer and so my headmaster very insightful man mr gill he used to talk about late developers and he said the 11 plus system had no umuvre for people that were late developers, you know, maybe at 13 or something. And this defining age was one which was significant

as to where you sat in society. And, you know, still today, still today, there are people that proudly, and quite right proudly, but I mean, you know, for themselves, there's this thing, well, I passed 11 plus. You know, and they... It's a thing that they can still say. Yes, I mean...

For the people that failed it, it's one thing, like that lady that wrote in about shame. But equally, it's a thing to brag about as well, isn't it? And then that's, well, I passed mine, so I'm a bit brighter. It's something that, I mean, there is also, there's a study by UCL's Institute for Education, which found that exams are particularly important for girls because success in them relieves that feeling of imposter syndrome that has been shown to be prevalent in girls moving to higher education. We also know girls statistically do far better,

sorry again, Jackie, in the 11 plus than boys. I'm not trying to rub this in. But if you look at that, I mean, there's a much bigger debate about grammar schools, you know, and we know from the hustings just a few weeks ago, a few months ago now for the new prime minister, both Rishi Sunak and Liz Truss

talked about bringing back grammar schools, but almost putting that to a side, because you don't necessarily have to keep going with the 11 plus. And I know it's different in different parts of the UK, but what do you make of that, that exams can be important specifically for girls? Well, as you said about the imposter syndrome, that if it is something that they're for that kind of self-esteem,

but the system is bigger than that, isn't it? That white girls should have imposter syndrome, not just because of an exam, but across the board, why they feel significantly less than or different. That's, you know, the 11 plus is just one aspect of it, surely, is it not? It is. And that means for other exams as well and other tests. Because, I mean, presumably GCSEs, you know, A-levels and whatever the system was that you went through,

you're not saying we do away with exams. You're talking about this particular age and this way of doing it. Yeah. And I think there was a gentleman on the radio this morning, an educationist, and he said he wouldn't tick the box to ban them, but he would look at education and do it better in that sense. And, yeah, I mean, we were given lessons to how to bathe a child, a doll, you know. I can always remember those lessons.

And I used to sit, I was furious and just thinking, you know, they were doing their best, but the expectations. And again, you have to put it in the context of 62, because I think the expectations were different then, worse than they are today because of the education system and the opportunities, et cetera, et cetera. I just remember that feeling of that's what they think, that I'm going to leave here and you know get pregnant at 16 and that's my life over well you know what i mean by that well it wasn't because i have listed some of

your other achievements um and i suppose being in those environments and and being a female trailblazer where if we talk about imposter syndrome um you will have certainly at least encountered it if you've not felt it at times as well yourself, trying to get through some of those glass ceilings, very tough ones indeed. No, absolutely. It's also just worth saying, which I know some of our listeners will be thinking, if not pointing out, that again, with the 11 plus,

some say, you know, now there's a strong culture of parents tutoring children for a couple of years beforehand. And the 11 plus can become and has become, as some would say, an exacerbator of inequality because parents can't pay for private tuition. So we can see that in the number of free school meals at grammar schools as well, which is just another element of this that I didn't want to miss out. Jackie, just before you go, you never want to mince your words. I wanted to ask you, you know, we've had quite an extraordinary year in terms of policing and women's response to the police with certain reports

that have come out in the wake of the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah Everard by a serving police officer, but also just taking a step back, there's now this idea of trying to rebuild trust between women and police and and not just the metropolitan police there's been a report looking at across the country what do you

make of that and and how to repair that relationship if i could just ask you that finally well that's a big big question isn't it um about about that repairing and stuff and i'm not i think one of the things is also i know this is kind of a cliche but they've lost all of those police stations we have lost the neighborhood we have lost contact with the public i think the police have lost contact with the public and working in partnership with some of the local authorities and women's group and talking and listening is essential and uh you know i set up the first domestic the second domestic violence unit way back in 1989 but part of that process is by talking to all the agencies that you possibly can to get them on board in terms of understanding both where you know both where we're coming from the thing is it

is about behavior and this is the thing that i just it drives me nuts to be perfectly honest and it's all going underground into WhatsApp group. And again, I'll quickly finish on this, but Prime Suspect, 1991, the first one, Prime Suspect one, misogyny. Number two, we did about racism. Third, we did about child abuse and homosexuality. Jump to 2020-22, the commissioner lost her job on those issues. You know,

and in between we've had seven commissioners. It's very, very difficult. And one of the things I will say, that when you're in a male-dominated professional or things like the police and the fire service, tribal behaviour amongst men is there. Talk to them individually, one-to-one. It's not there. It is a culture of tribal behaviour that men seem to engage in. And those are the things that we really, really have to break. We've got to break men's behaviour more than anything. Thank you for that. I know it's a big question, but it's something I know you've obviously worked amongst,

but you also try to represent on TV and and still probably as you say looking at this thinking how we we're having some of these conversations still all these years on jackie malton thank you again also for being so honest about the shame that you uh you feel i'm not i'm not laughing i just love the fact i've had to bring up certain things to you and you've had to say well no no i still feel shame uh and others are agreeing with you and i think it's always very good when when you start these sorts of conversations. We'll see what happens with the campaign. Jackie Moulton, all the best to you.

Thank you, Emma. Thank you. There's some messages here to share. I remember opening the envelope telling me I'd failed my 11 plus, reads this one. 50 years on, I still haven't forgotten that feeling. Yet my friends and I have been successful. I was lower sixth captain at my all girls boarding school. Everyone thought I'd be made head girl like my older sister before me. The day came when the envelopes, lots of envelopes in this,

were left on the beds of the ten girls chosen to be prefects. I wasn't one of them. I joined the defects, as we called ourselves, stopped trying so hard to please everyone and ended up really enjoying the rest of the time at school. I made new friends and I felt like I could relax and be my true self, says Helen, who's listening in Edinburgh. Good morning to you. It's not just messages about 11 plus.

You're saying if things have hung over you or failures, which perhaps have been good for you. Morning, I failed my 11 plus in 1967. I was devastated. My dad had promised me a two wheeler bike if I passed. I had to go to secondary modern school and I've always felt like a failure. I'm not quite good enough. That's the feeling. To this day, I can't ride a bike.

But at 66, I hope one day I'll get a trike with a basket for my dog. Much love, Vanessa, living in Cumbria. Oh, Vanessa, I think you need to get on that. Come on, you can get yourself on this Christmas, hopefully. Another one. My mum passed her 11 plus, age 10, as her birthday is in June. Sadly, she lived in an area with only one grammar school so her place was given to a boy in her class instead.

70 years on she's still haunted by this decision as her quite obvious intelligence was never given the chance to fully flourish. There you go. I totally agree with Jackie read another one here. I failed the 11 plus while my sister went to a grammar school. The sense of failure spurred me on

to aim as high as I could. I have a master's and I'm going for a PhD my headmistress congratulated me in front of the class as I did better in my 11 plus than she expected I failed my 11 plus I learned about irony at a young age so those messages keep coming do please keep them coming in I will come back to them shortly but my next guest is one of you our listeners we're calling her christina she got in touch with us here at women's after she heard an episode of file on four with our colleagues that they had made about drugs used to treat anxiety and she found herself recognizing a lot of what she heard in relation to her daughter concerns amounting about the untold toll lockdowns have had on different parts

of society, not least the young. A grainy picture is starting to emerge. For instance, a youth mental health study published by NHS England yesterday found pre-pandemic one in 10 young people aged 17 to 19 were classed as having a probable mental disorder. Last year, it rose to one in six, and the latest data for this year shows a figure of one in four. The rates among teenage boys have remained the same, but it's in young women aged 17 to 24 where the rates have doubled in the past 12 months. Our listener Christina also discovered a big change in her teen daughter,

whom we're calling Beatrice, during the lockdowns. She didn't notice it at first, but when she found out, this was what happened, the story as it was. She became addicted, her daughter, to the drug commonly known as Xanax after taking it to deal with the extreme anxiety she was experiencing with her school being shut and her GCSEs being cancelled. Upon returning to school, she had panic attacks which were

causing her to run out of classes. Beatrice has given us her permission for her story to be told. And I spoke to Christina earlier and began by asking what her daughter was like before she started taking Xanax. She is a creative person and she's someone who has been really, I would say, steadfast. One of those people that's very reliable. She was always up in time for school, determined with her schoolwork and conscientious. So somebody that we felt we didn't worry about in a way because she always exhibited kind of good judgment. She had a group of friends,

which did change as the pandemic obviously changed everybody's kind of relationships. She's lovely. She still is. Yes, I'm sure. But you've been on quite a road together since. And you mentioned the pandemic. This was a big moment. And how Zanex came into her life? previously and that the pandemic really emphasised this sense of anxiety, not having control over what's happening, the feeling that you might pass on an illness and not being at school,

not being in that social setting that, you know, I guess we all, certainly in this country, that's what we have from the age of around five, this very set of boundaries that are supported through the school system. And I think that that change, being away from school, the sense of anxiety became really intense. And I think perhaps we didn't understand how deep that became really. The GCSEs were cancelled. I think that fed into that sense that everything you've expected and worked towards as a pupil just completely changes. We are looking and sort of almost getting ready aren't we to try and understand the impact especially on on younger people, of lockdown and having things like GCSEs no longer there. But how did the Xanax start?

There was a relationship break-up. There was this sense of anxiety that we had talked about. She had support from the GP that wasn't altogether successful or very interventional. So she was going to school and we felt that things were fine but she was in her second year of A-levels and not feeling comfortable about going into school and she talked about situations where she had panic attacks and she had to run out of lessons because she just was scared that she was going to be asked something by the teacher.

So I think it was a friend who suggested she try Xanax, which she did. And I guess the result was that she felt less anxious. Initially, it must have felt that that fear of what was going to happen subsided. And so I think that Xanax use, because Xanax wears off very quickly, the addiction can build up very quickly. Did you know she was taking it? We had no idea. How long into her taking it did you know?

Was it a change of behaviour that made you think something was wrong? No. So she took it for maybe about four months. And during that time, I would say she was quite absent. We hardly saw her. She mainly saw one friend and they would go out once over the weekend. So she was doing a lot of studying in her room. She had meals with us. But looking back, she sort of disappeared. I felt she wasn't there. And this issue around waking up,

she wasn't waking up for school. And she was saying, well, it's because we've got no study space. We have to go in for registration. And then she doesn't have lessons for some time and there was nowhere to go and she felt anxious. So we didn't question, we never imagined there would be an issue around drug taking and then she told me that she'd made an appointment with one of the teachers and when she came back from that appointment she told me then that she'd been using Xanax and that she had tried to come off it on her own and she was unable to. And so she'd signed up with a drug rehabilitation sort of support for young people, but hadn't had any treatment as yet. And to be honest, I didn't know what it meant. I didn't know much about Xanax.

Did you know what it did as a drug? No. No. I mean, I was off on Google checking and feeling obviously very concerned and spoke to my partner and we talked to her around how we can support her and finding out more about how she was going to withdraw. But we were totally, I guess, complacent about her health, about her well-being, because she was doing the basics that suggested she was fine. What were her symptoms that had also made her think, I need help? The main areas were, A, she realised that she was taking more and more of it. The other thing, I think, was lack of inhibition. I think that she was in situations when she was out

where they would drink alcohol and take Xanax and I think there were risks that they put themselves in because of not having that sense of what, in a way, anxiety gives you, which is to protect you in some ways around the decisions you take. So I think when she tried to come off it, she then realised that she had no control and that she was no longer herself. That's how she described it.

How easy was it for her to access it do you know about that side of things very easy really worrying really worrying I mean I know people who have accessed it online they had a dealer they would regularly get Xanax and I'm sorry is that how your daughter accessed yeah through someone who had someone that was giving it for them? Yeah. Because that's a part of probably why you want to talk today. Yeah. And I think also that it's very cheap. It's an accessible drug.

And of course, it's not available here on prescription. But the impact of it is really, really dangerous. It's a Class C drug, which means it's illegal to have for yourself, give away or sell. It's only available in the UK on private prescription. She then seeks help, like you were saying. Did it help? Yes, but not initially. She was put on diazepam as an alternative. And diazepam has a much longer lifespan lifespan so you can take less of it or the impact of it lasts for longer. She was low in weight and she was put on the maximum dose of diazepam which is 40 milligrams a day. This was because to just come off Xanax or a benzo, it's very dangerous. It can cause spasms, fits, death.

So it's something that has to be a slow withdrawal. So given that she was studying for her A-levels, she was on this very high dose of diazepam throughout sort of the final part of her studies and then her exams. However, she became suicidal. She became really, really depressed. I think she realised that she was out of control and didn't know how to manage the feelings of guilt and fear, anxiety. And so then the sort of more immediate impact was worse because she did make attempts or self-harm and that meant you know we had a number of occasions where we went to A&E and she had support through really brilliant services through the crisis team and a psychiatrist and a lot of health professionals

were extremely supportive given the sort of vulnerability for her. That must have been incredibly frightening for you. Yeah it was really a terrifying time and I think because I felt so ignorant and I felt so unable to help. And of course, as a parent, you feel guilty that this has occurred literally under your roof with you there. And you've not recognised it. You've not been able to sort of help. So I think as a family, we were all very much affected by her situation and the impact of it.

How is she now? She's brilliant, really. She's much better. I think the key thing is she has come off diazepam. Despite all the sort of difficult occurrences while she was taking her exams, school made provision for her to take her exams in a way that was much less stressful. And she achieved really brilliant A-level results, and she's deferred a university place. And the main thing that's changed is she is off benzos. So it took really about four months to withdraw from diazepam,

during which time she became agoraphobic. She dealt with a lot of aches and pains and was extremely anxious and sort of hypervigilant. So it was a very difficult journey to withdraw from that. But since then, after the withdrawal, she is in a really good state of mind. She's looking towards what she can do in terms of work in the meantime before studies. And we talked a lot. We have talked a lot about what's happened. We talked about today and me talking about her situation and experience. Why did you want to talk? I think because it's something that we were

completely unaware of and that it's a real danger for young people and it could be of course any age but for young people in our case our daughter was not taking recreational drugs, but anxiety and feelings of social isolation, I think, are very, very common around social media, around impact of the pandemic. And I think that has been a key factor. And also anxiety, particularly on social media and girls. Yes. That link. Yeah, absolutely. So I really wanted to talk about our experience.

I think our daughter in time will talk firsthand about what's happened to her and how she's recovered. And does she see now, I don't know if she's still in contact with the person who originally, the friend who originally suggested it, does she see now that that wasn't an appropriate suggestion and do those individuals around her, have they seen what happened to her? who originally, the friend who originally suggested it, does she see now that that wasn't an appropriate suggestion? And do those individuals around her, have they seen what happened to her?

Yes. I don't fully know what friends at school, for example, know because she has not been at school for months and months. She completely didn't see anyone for seven, eight months. So I don't know what the perception is. But I suppose being here today today you want to share it more widely yes the reality of of how that happened but also how long it takes and the impact it's had yeah by taking that road yes and how insidious it is because it starts as a oh this feels a bit better yes but can creep up I mean now I realize in lots of different ways, she could have died. She so easily could have died. And there were points sort of after suicide attempts where I was just thinking, well,

this keeps on happening. This is only going to get worse. So it's a really, really dangerous situation. Thank you to Christina who got in touch, that's what we're calling her, and to Birch's for letting us tell that story. I should say if you've been affected by any of the issues raised, you can find links to organisations that can help on the BBC Action 9 website. I also thought this message was very worth reading out. I definitely think the pandemic has had a negative impact, including on my 19-year-old daughter. However, I think it's important to say that it's not just lockdowns. It's the uncertainty, the fear, the sadness caused by the virus, as well as the isolation and lack of structure caused by lockdowns. It's very well put. Thank you for that message. Keep them coming in. Many about failure, many about the 11 plus, whether you agree with this campaign that's launching tomorrow to abolish it or other things that have sort of haunted you or perhaps spurred you on.

Maybe my next guest will have a view on this in terms of high achievements. There's certainly a lot going on in that basket for her. According to NASA, only 75 women have ever travelled to space. That's out of a total of over 560 people who've made that incredible journey. No women have still walked on the moon. However, that may be about to change. You may have seen the exciting news last week. A new intake of astronauts at the European Space Agency has just been announced. It includes the 31-year-old astrophysicist Dr Rosemary Coogan. She's become the first female ESA, which stands for the European Space Agency, astronaut from the UK, and joins the 16 other men and women chosen from over 22,000 candidates. Dr Rosemary Coogan joins me now live from Paris for her first in-depth BBC interview. First of all, good morning. Second of all, congratulations.

Good morning, Emma. Thank you very much. Are you used to your new status as an astronaut here? I'm getting used to it, yeah. Sometimes it doesn't almost quite feel real, but no, it's an absolute privilege and it is sinking in day by day. I bet. I mean, now when people say to you, what do you do, you've got the coolest response in the world. I mean, I think it's the coolest job in the world. Of course, I have to say that space exploration is an effort

of a huge, huge number of people supporting the astronauts, supporting all of the missions. But I'm very pleased to be able to play this part in it, yeah. Well, and a huge number of people tried to get on this programme and you managed to do it. Why did you decide to apply for it? I mean, I've always been fascinated by space itself. I'm an astrophysicist, as you say, but I really wanted to start to contribute more directly to a lot of ESA's efforts in terms of exploring

our local solar system, what that tells us about the conditions required for life on Earth, how we came to be, and also to be an ambassador for space. And of course, this is a great platform to talk about that as well. So lots of different reasons, really. And you know, which perhaps some of us don't, I don't know, I feel like also, you know, your own family probably asked you some of these questions, but you know, some of the benefits that space exploration can give to us in our day to day lives and has already given to us. Have you got any examples that you always think of?

Yeah, absolutely. And it depends, of course, on the mission. But for example, ESA is extremely active in earth observation itself so these aren't human missions but these are observations from the Copernicus program for example which are helping to mitigate climate change there's lots of technology telecommunications excuse me and in terms of the the human side of things what I'm particularly interested I have to say is what it tells us about the human body by studying the the changes that happen in an astronaut's body when you're in space you can sometimes get an accelerated look at what happens to people on earth in terms of aging in terms of problems with sight or cardiovascular fitness and a lot of those lessons get brought

back to earth and I think that that is particularly fascinating. Well, also, there's been some work, hasn't there, around how women and men react differently when in space. For instance, I remember talking to a specialist about this only a few years ago. He said women are more likely to feel sick when they go into space. Men are more likely to get re-entry sickness when they come back to Earth. Men have more problems with their vision when they get back from space, which women don't get. But then there's some issues for women when they come back with blood pressure. So it's also just the experience of going has taught us a lot, hasn't it, about men

and women? Yeah, absolutely. And of course, as you said at the beginning of this segment, there are many fewer women who have been to space than men. And so being able to have now more women going into space will help to really build on those statistics and understand even further what exactly is happening as the next step to why. How do you feel about that? It's always a bit of a pressure, isn't it, being the first of something? How do you feel about holding that mantle, the first female European Space Agency astronaut from the UK? It really is a fantastic honour and I just hope that I can live up to it, essentially. You're going to be great. You're going to be great. We're all behind you here because this is, you know, something you've been working towards, you know, and also the training that you're about to begin. Is that next year? Is that the beginning of you're about to begin is that next year is

that the beginning of next year yes in april next year it's going to be intense i imagine can you give us an insight yeah yeah it absolutely will be intense um it starts with with basic training and gets more and more specific um as you become assigned to a mission. It covers all sorts of things from classroom-based activities on space law, astrophysics, engineering, to looking at the different systems on board the ISS, bringing everyone from, of course, different backgrounds within the astronaut corps to the same level in those subjects, to much more fast-paced, exciting things, one might say,

such as underwater training to simulate weightlessness and how to work in that environment, survival training for preparing for re-entry. So you use underwater training to get ready for the zero gravity side of things? Yeah, absolutely. It's essentially the closest we can come to having a weightlessness environment on Earth. It's not identical because underwater you can become neutrally buoyant so you don't float and you don't sink.

But you do still have an awareness of up and down because of the gravity in a way that you don't in space. But by having by spending time underwater in spacesuits with replicas of the space station, you can essentially practice the manoeuvres that you're going to need to perform up there and make sure that when the time comes, you know it like the back of your hand. Do you like being underwater for long periods of time? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I have a scuba diving licence. Oh, that's good. That might not necessarily be the case for everyone who's gone forward for this because, you know, they've gone forward for different reasons and for their interests. So that's a relief to hear. Are you apprehensive about any of the training or any of this?

Because it's not definite what mission you would be assigned to. It's not definite how or where you would be if you go. But what's the bit that perhaps is quite unknown for you or maybe keeps you up at night i don't know if there is something it's interesting i wouldn't say i was apprehensive i think that actually we are surrounded by an enormous team who really do support us in every aspect of our training and preparation but of course what we're trying now is is very is very new of course the iss and the experiments there will continue for for several more years but we're trying now is very new. Of course, the ISS and the experiments there will continue for several more years, but we're really looking to a more prolonged presence

or spending longer periods of time on the moon and how that's going to be possible, whether we can use resources there, how might we build a base? And these sorts of things are certainly, yeah, the most unknown and uh very interesting and like you say perhaps is there something that you would be extremely excited about of all the things you could get to do i think that is what i'm most excited about and i think excitement and unknown

often do go hand in hand in some ways um I think that the lunar exploration that we're working towards, of course, is building upon the Apollo missions. But by really, really understanding how long we can spend on the moon, how we can stay there safely using those resources without replenishment, or perhaps traveling to and from the surface between the gateway the new station will have in lunar, in the vicinity of the moon, is something that I personally would really love to be involved with. So I could be talking to the first woman to walk on the moon?

Oh, well, I think that the first woman to walk on the moon will be an American woman. I think NASA will certainly be in this decade. And that will be fantastic, of course. And then we certainly have some European missions on the Artemis program. I'm just getting ambitious here. Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm getting excited for you. I mean, have you thought about what you might say or do if you do get that chance?

You've got to have a good quote ready, haven't you? Neil Armstrong set the bar pretty high. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I do wonder how long it took him to think about that because it was incredible. And you talked a little bit about the pressure of firsts. Well, that's a great example of it. Yes.

Okay, well, we'll leave you some time for that. Have you got something you want to take with you you know like a mascot or have you got a food a favorite food or what are you allowed to maybe take that's kind of creature comforts it's a great question and actually I was reflecting on this and uh it popped into my head a little bit I don't know if anybody's seen some of the photos but there's a Shaun the Sheep mascot, a space Shaun the Sheep, that replicates the Shaun the Sheep

that is in fact orbiting the moon as we speak on the Artemis mission. And unfortunately, I don't have a space Shaun the Sheep of my own, but I do have a great space penguin who I think would love a trip. So I think he might be my future company. Yeah, I think there's a there's a sort of commercial relationship isn't there with Sean the sheep and that uh particular mission but yours is

a space penguin of your own is that a penguin at home that you just own yes exactly I think we need to see a photo of you with that at some point because I'm only imagining you with with Sean at the moment um but that's that are you allowed are you allowed to say teddy bears yourself or does it have to be an officially signed off mascot? I think you're certainly allowed some personal belongings within a weight and size limit. And I think a plush toy would definitely pass the test. Well, I'd love if we could catch up again.

It's fantastic to talk to you today. All the best with it. Good luck to getting the penguin on board, but good luck getting wherever you're going to go as well. And all the best to you. Dr. Rosemary Coogan there, the first female European Space Agency astronaut from the UK, and we will see where she goes. Now, in her first major speech since the death of Queen Elizabeth, Camilla, the Queen Consort, has chosen to highlight domestic violence and violence against women, which has become one of her key focuses of her charity work and campaigning.

She gave the speech yesterday afternoon at a large reception of 300 people at Buckingham Palace as part of the United Nations' 16 Days of Activism. Guests included survivors, campaigners, activists, politicians, including the Home Secretary and members of the Home Office, as well as a number of female royals from around the world, to draw attention to what the Queen Consort described as a global pandemic of violence against women. Also in attendance, you may have seen in some of the coverage, Olena Zelenska, the wife of Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky, and the First Lady speaking a lot about, as we did on yesterday's programme, the prevention of violence in war zones

with what's going on in her country. Here's some of what Camilla, the Queen Consort, had to say. Throughout the world, individuals and organisations are coming together to call for the prevention and elimination of violence against women and girls. Why? Because over a period of 16 days worldwide, more than 2,000 women will be killed by a partner or a member of their own family. Because in England and Wales alone, during that same period,

police will record that more than 3,000 women have been raped. And because up to one in three women, one in three, across the globe, will endure domestic violence in the course of their lifetime. Behind every one of these statistics lie individual stories of human suffering and heartbreak. We are uniting today to confront rightly what has rightly been called a global pandemic of violence against women. Faced with such challenges, it can be hard to know what practical steps we can take to even begin to make a difference. Over the years in my previous role, I've had the privilege of meeting many survivors of rape and domestic abuse and of sharing in the sorrow of people who have lost their families to violence. And again and again, I heard that two of the most powerful ways in which to help were to remember and to listen. We remember those women who had lost their

life in the hands of a stranger or a person who should have loved them best. In doing so, we refuse to be desensitised by cold facts and figures and we resolve to keep the names and the memories of these women alive. We remember Brenda Blaney, Mariam Kamara, Lucy Powell, Samantha Drummonds, Yasmin Begum, Sally Turner,

Hina Bashir, Jinu Nash, and her 12-year-old daughter Louise, to name but a very few of those that have been killed this year alone. That's what Camilla, the Queen Consort, some of what she had to say in her first major speech since the death of Queen Elizabeth I in her role as Queen Consort and she chose to highlight as you could hear there what she was describing as a global pandemic of violence against women. We wanted to make sure we'd shared some of that with you. Now if you were listening to Woman's Hour on Monday you may have heard my interview with Rikki Lake, the American actor, TV host and now producer has just released her second documentary. It's called The Business of Birth Control and it looks at the oral contraceptive pill

and hormonal contraception taken by millions of women around the world. The documentary aims to provoke debates and pose questions about whether women know enough about the side effects of such medication, hailed as revolutionary for women's liberation when first created. It's also the film been met with a strong response from some critics, with some saying the documentary relies heavily on anecdata, data from anecdotal evidence rather than hard science, and there's concerns about fear-mongering. Well, this morning, as promised on Monday's programme, and as we often do with these sorts of issues, we're going to take a closer look at some of the things about the pill raised by the film and by Ricky in our interview.

Plus, we did have some questions from you, our listeners. Joining me now, Dr. Helen Munro, vice president of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Health Care. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thanks for being with us. I just wanted to start with Ricky's main point that she talks about a lot, the side effects of taking hormonal contraceptives. Let's just remind ourselves. The theme, the overall theme in all of our films is informed choice, you know, and having access to the information to make an empowered and informed decision about your body and

your baby, you know. And so that's really the theme. It's really about not telling women what to do, but really talking about options. And in the case of, you know, with hormonal birth control, there is so much to know and consider before you start taking a drug, sometimes at 13 years of age for acne or for period cramps, that really impacts who a woman is on a foundational level. Do you not think then, when you were thinking of even doing this, but now having actually watched the film myself, do you not think women, even when they're younger and they usually go to the doctors with their,

with their parents, often their mother, do you not think that girls and women are informed of the potential side effects? No, I don't think they're told that. I don't even think doctors are really aware. They don't put the dots together until many times. If you saw the film, you saw the very heart-wrenching stories

of these young girls that have died from pulmonary embolisms. And yes, there's a warning, but it's like if you look at the page of side effects, I mean, it's buried in there, and it's just something that we should know. We should know that it actually can change your personality. It can cause low-lying depression. It could cause, you know, so women think that it's them when in fact it could very much be the drug that they're on. Dr. Helen Munro, what's your reaction to that? Yes. Thank you, Emma. I think first and foremost, we absolutely welcome the opportunity to speak about contraception and reproductive health.

But what I want to do is reassure your listeners and also perhaps family members of your listeners that the contraception pill is safe for the majority of women. And actually, we've already heard from our members who are upset and concerned about the portrayal, particularly around healthcare professionals and that consultation process that's depicted in this documentary. Because here within the UK, we have a very robust system for training healthcare professionals in being able to deliver and prescribe all contraception methods. And actually, we take a lot of time speaking to our patients around different options of contraception, taking into account their medical history, their family history.

Also things like diet, weight, blood pressure, smoking status, which are all incredibly important when we think about informed choice for women. So number one, 30% of women of reproductive health use the oral contraception pill safely on a day-to-day basis and we know that there are many benefits of it not only around preventing unplanned pregnancies but also in terms of general health and well-being and actually what is depicted in this programme is perhaps a little bit on the side of erring towards the scare stories, when actually what we know is for the majority of women, this is safe. We should also make the distinction, and people can listen back to that interview in full, they can also watch the film, of course, that she was referring a lot more to the situation in the US, which you're speaking to the UK about health practitioners. But we did

hear from one of our listeners saying they'd never had this sort of discussion with a health practitioner prescribing the pill. What about the idea that it's a patchy service and sometimes you don't get the advice based on your background and how the pill could affect you or whichever hormonal contraception you've gone for? That's an incredibly important point. point and it's something that certainly in the FSRH we are raising daily with commissioners and with the government around ensuring that access to safe effective consultations around contraception is maintained. We know that 80% of women want to be able to get their contraception from their primary care practitioners but we know that through the Covid and the pandemic and following this that actually in terms of being able to access your GP has become a little bit more challenging and so we encourage commissioners and the government to ensure that women can access their GPs for their contraception help and advice and for healthcare practitioners there is lots of professional development and training available so that women can be counselled safely and

effectively around their chosen methods of contraception. On that point, let's listen to what Rikki Lowe had to say about her own experience and self-prescribing. I was on the pill for two decades. I would switch the pill. I would go to my doctor and then have a new one in the office for free. And it would save me a trip to the pharmacy. So I'd switch brands and I'd switch dosing. And I didn't really put two and two together.

But for me, my main side effect that I dealt with after the fact was hair loss. And that is a huge side effect that is actually, like, I should have known that. I did not. I was not told that when I went on the pill and stayed on it for so long. And I might have made a different choice if I had known that my hair could fall out from it. And I have to go back to my first film. I made this film. I'm not someone who claims to be an expert or a doctor. I am simply someone who has used my sort of public platform to raise questions about the status quo in certain areas. So I made this film about birth 15 years ago,

and people didn't like it at first. People in the medical world had issues with the fact that they were presented in a certain way. Well, that was how they were behaving, and that was what the protocols were. So I think we're really a mirror reflecting. And I stand by this film, and I'm super proud of it. And I think it's not meant to scare women. My goal is not to scare women off of these pills. I'm hoping to educate and empower them to be able to make an informed choice when it comes to their bodies. What about the idea then changing doses or medication without going to a GP? So we certainly don't support that. We want you to be able to have an open and honest

conversation with your healthcare practitioner, whether that's your GP, whether it's your nurse in your primary care clinic, or whether that's going to a sexual and reproductive health clinic. But we want you to be able to know there's different types of contraception methods there are different ways of taking the hormonal contraception method which may reduce some of your symptoms and certainly that's a conversation that you need to have with your doctor and we don't recommend that you start changing on your own. A lot of people are also interested now in fertility apps or apps that track your menstrual cycle and some of the concern from doctors around these sorts of apps is they've described it or compared it to the rhythm method.

And of course, I'm talking to Rikki, it's just by accident, she says, and it is, you know, this film's come out at a time when Roe v. Wade has been overturned in America. But Rikki, talking about these fertility apps, it's absolutely not like the rhythm method. Have a listen to this. Fertility awareness method is a scientific method that has proven if it's done effectively, it is as effective, if not more so than even taking the pill. So again, again, I am not an expert on all of it.

Fertility awareness can be more effective than taking the pill. Your reaction to that? So apps are a growing market and I think we have to support changing technologies and how they can increase confidence for women and support women in their contraception choices. But we absolutely don't have enough evidence around apps to say that they're a replacement of the mainstream contraception methods. And actually, they rely on women to input data. And also, we don't have these large clinical trials, prospective clinical trials to be able to give that assurance to women about being able to rely on apps. And in terms of regulation of

these apps, that's something that also we'd like to see tightened up. We need to be able to give women the evidence. And at the moment, the evidence is not there. I suppose there's this bigger pushback, which is what the film captures, this culture of women questioning more, asking more questions, trying to think about things in slightly different ways. I mean, there's also this idea that perhaps not you, but people like yourself have been influenced by Big Pharma. Very briefly, what would you say to that? Absolutely not. In terms of the way that we prescribe contraception in this country at the moment, it's free at the point of access. Again, it's around that full consultation process that we have with women and being able to give them the evidence around all methods to be able to suit in terms of their contraception needs, as well as their health and well-being needs. And so pharma is not an influence.

Dr. Helen Munro, Vice President of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare. Of course if you're worried about anything to do with the contraceptive pill as was mentioned talk to your GP or you can find information about side effects and frequently asked questions on the NHS website and of course you can listen back to my full interview with Rikki Lake on BBC Sounds. Just look for Monday's programme or check out that film yourself. I'll be back with you tomorrow at ten. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. What happens when you combine dog shows? The Kennel Club is not overdoing it when they say it's the greatest dog show on earth. And poison. The world of dog breeding has been rocked by claims that a prize winner at Crufts was poisoned. It's extraordinary behaviour. It is. Some people are ruthless.

The fear was real. People were much more protected. They didn't leave their dog for a second. New podcast, Dead Competitive. Presented by me, Kerry Godleman. Wow, look at that dog on the floor. It looks like a rug. No, I'm not a real detective. Crufts where every dog has its day. But I will try my best. It's quite moving, that, isn't it?

Subscribe to Dead Competitive on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.