Woman's Hour - Dr Shazia Malik, Charlotte Regan, Female surgeons, Poison pen letters, The Knock special series

Episode Date: September 12, 2023

They say current disparities in women’s health across England mean there are far too many cases where women’s voices are not being heard. But the decision to only speak to women up to the age of 55 has provoked a backlash. Nuala McGovern is joined by consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist Dr Shazia Malik, a sub-specialist in reproductive medicine.The film Scrapper follows 12-year-old Georgie living happily alone in a council house in London following the death of her mum. But when her absent father Jason turns up out of the blue, her world is disrupted. We talk to director Charlotte Regan about her debut feature film who says she wanted to show British working class life as something that can be joyful and fun.A new survey shows that nearly a third of female NHS surgeons have been sexually assaulted by a colleague over the past five years. Nuala speak to Tamzin Cuming, a consultant surgeon and chair of the Women in Surgery forum at the Royal College of Surgeons of England, who says it’s a #MeToo moment for surgery.Before the age of social media, there was still plenty of trolling in written form. Emily Cockayne, author of the new book Penning Poison, joins Nuala to discuss her research into the history of poison pen letters; that is, messages sent anonymously, seemingly with the intention to unsettle the recipient. Emily has traced the stories of such missives to all corners of English society from 1760 to 1939.We start our new series 'The Knock' which details the stories of two women whose lives were changed when they were told that a loved one had been arrested for sexual offences against children.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Tim Heffer Reporter Jo Morris

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, shocking statistics from a survey out this morning. You might have heard them in the headlines there. Nearly a third of female NHS surgeons have been sexually assaulted by a colleague over the past five years. My guest at Tamsin Cumming, a consultant surgeon, says that this is a me-too moment for surgery. So we'll talk about that.

Also, poison pen letters. Today, we often talk about anonymous upsetting messages that are sent online. But how did this type of missive start? And why were women so often implicated? Well, the historian Emily Cockane will be with us. We'll speak to her. We also have the director, Charlotte Regan, in the Woman's Hour studio to talk about her warm

and wonderful debut feature film. It's called Scrapper. And we begin our series called The Knock. Now, that is where women describe what ensued after discovering a loved one was arrested for child sexual abuse. And we're going to speak in just a moment about a major survey launched to track women's reproductive health from periods, contraception, pregnancy and menopause. But it is just for women aged 16 to 55. Some women over 55 are asking, why were they not asked for their experiences?

Do you think the Department of Health will miss out if those voices aren't heard? Why? What do they need to know? Get in touch. You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website.

For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. I am ready to read your messages. So coming to that survey is really an online questionnaire. The Department of Health called it Landmark and say that it covers every aspect of reproductive health from periods, as I mentioned, contraception, pregnancy, menopause, really the whole gamut. But they say the current disparities in women's health across England mean there are far too many cases of women's voices not being heard.

So this is where they will be heard. But as I mentioned, that not taking women's voices over 55 has caused a backlash. I'm joined in studio now by the consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist, Dr Shazia Malik, who's a subspecialist in reproductive medicine. Welcome. Good morning. Thank you for having me on. So what about that backlash and the fact that they've decided

just to go to the age of 55 to hear those voices? So I'm going to look at it from both sides. OK. So it and I'm not involved in the study so but if I was looking at it from what they appear to be seeking to look at so if they've they've titled it reproductive health or you know reproductive choices for women so your reproductive life as such is defined as when you start your periods until you stop your periods and reach the menopause. And medically speaking, we classify post-menopausal health as post-reproductive health. So if you look at seminars that I might go to on the menopause,

they're classified as post-reproductive health. So I suspect this is how the government have tried to classify it. But of course, if you look at the study, I don't know if you've had a look at the study. I did actually. I went online this morning and kind of went through. It was different to what I expected. Well, it's different to what I expected as well.

And I've gone on the study. Maybe we should describe it for anybody who hasn't clicked through yet. So first of all if you click on it so it's not as easy to find as you might think although other other websites have highlighted it but if you click on it it really is just a fact-finding exercise rather than giving you a lot of space to talk about your experiences as an individual. So it seems to me that so once you talk about whether you identify as a woman, what your age group is, if you're married, you know, what your experiences

are, it really is just questions about, you know, have you accessed an abortion service or sexual health? Have you had a heavy period in the past year? Do you say that you've got endometriosis, PCOS or any several other conditions? And of course, you might say you have it. But if you came and saw me in the clinic, I might tell you, well, actually, you know, you don't have it because we do the right tests. And then at the end, it will ask you some questions about your, you know, do you have any specific experiences? But it does actually talk about things like menopause and urinary incontinence as well. So it leads you according to how you answer the questions and how you identify your symptoms and social criteria. But

if it's talking about urinary incontinence and menopause then it is missing out women who've just been through the menopause or are actually still experiencing those problems and urinary incontinence in my experience as a medic in that field is related quite often to women who either have gone through vaginal childbirth or are post-menopal. So you are automatically excluding a lot of women who are postmenopausal who are the ones who experience those symptoms. So if I was looking at it from the government, they're defining it as reproductive health, which stops when you go through the menopause. If I'm looking at it as a woman and as a mother, in fact, of course it doesn't stop. And if you want healthily reproductive choices, surely what we accessed or what we were taught or what we suffered in our reproductive years will, of course, define our health, our attitudes, what we pass on lot of interest even from government around the menopause, how women experience it, how the workplace deals with it. I mean, I feel as a woman and I am postmenopausal, you know, you've suddenly been silenced again unless you're just being asked about the menopause.

I have two teenage daughters. What I tell them surely will influence their choices will influence how they access health care and their attitudes to things like contraception so if we're looking at 18 to 24 year olds for example and I meet them in my clinic I have lots of mothers who bring their daughters to me to discuss contraception sexual health you know what do we see all the time tiktok instagram is telling you hormonal contraception is harmful you mustn't use it this is a story i saw that there is basically a trend on some of the social media sites that is a massive trend i see it all the time and surely that will impact on unwanted pregnancies and i should say that there is no medical evidence within these videos that are circulating, although there's lots of questions about the hormonal pill,

but this is what you're referring to. It is. So I think that's, you know, this study isn't going to look at that. And then, of course, my other concern is that the government only in 2021 had a massive survey on, it was something, it was called something like, you know, women, let's talk about it. It was almost, it wasn't that different to this survey. It was about 100,000 women, 90% of whom were white, about 60, 70% of whom were in the South East and if we're talking about discrepancies in accessing healthcare,

education in healthcare, having a voice, then how are we going to make sure that this survey is different to the last one where there was about 3% of women from ethnic minorities, almost none from women post-60 and very few from the north-west and north-east of England. And that is part of the reason that we're speaking about it today on Women's Hour, so people realise that it is there and findable and can be filled out.

There are questions then about what it might achieve because the government is saying to minimise those disparities. Why are there such disparities for women's health across England? It's obviously very complicated, but I grew up in a small town in Lancashire, in northwest England. And where I grew up, my parents were local GPs. They looked after generations of people for about 30, 40 years. And there was a large Southeast Asian population. My mum was 83, still runs a charity organisation

helping local women with their issues. So I can tell you from my experiences, if we look at ethnic minority women, and not just those, but women who live in in very deprived areas they're busy bringing up their children they're busy surviving day to day most of them if you come from ethnic and minority circumstances you know some of them won't speak English they may be older there's lots of taboos about talking about sexual health. The menopause doesn't get talked about at all. They will for sure be illiterate, most of them, in terms of IT.

And unless their daughter comes home and says, Mum, let's do this survey, they're never going to A, know about it, B, access it, or have a voice. If we look at outcomes in childbirth in this country, we've known for a long, long time that the risk of stillbirth, the risk of miscarriage, the risk of postnatal depression is far, far higher in black women and women of other ethnic minorities. So all the data is already there.

So if we're looking at, you know, diabetes in pregnancy, miscarriages, accessing contraception, abortion rates, I think the data is already there. So we need to make sure that those women have a voice, but also we talk about what we do next to make a difference. A couple of messages coming in. Just be curious for your thoughts on them. One, it's a mistake not talking to over 55s

as our generation, we're probably the most ignored. I'm 68, had undiagnosed endometriosis for many years, causing a lot of damage, which I still have ongoing problems with now. It wasn't recognised. It's still taking years for women to get diagnosed. My feedback could be valuable for future provision. Thanks, says V. Another, Gillian, my menopause did not stop until I was 59. So she's not postmenopausal at 55 or 56.

So the average age of the menopause in the UK is 51. But there is a significant proportion of women so about 80% of women will go through the menopause by 51 but 20% 80% but 20% of women that's quite a lot of women won't have gone through it at 51 and there is a small proportion who go through it later and again you can see that so some families a lot all the women have a later menopause. Some women from Afro-Caribbean backgrounds, I see them have a later menopause as well. So, of course, they're not going to be included in that study, are they? They do often say it follows your mother. Is that fair?

It is fair. It's not always the case. But it's not unusual, as I said, for families to have who go through either a what we call a premature menopause that's defined as being under the age of 40 or women who have a later menopause. Really interesting stuff let's see what happens with the survey it's just open for a few weeks so if you are interested in taking part of it and as Dr Shazia was telling us there was an under-representation of many groups so please do get in touch if you pop it in. It is the survey that is taking place. It's called the Reproductive Health from Periods and Contraception to Pregnancy and the Menopause.

Dr. Shazia Malik, thanks so much. Thank you. Another getting in touch. There are women still going through the menopause after 55. I've been going through the menopause since I was 45. I'm now 56. That's a story as well. Thank you for getting in touch. 84844. Okay, poison pen letters. What does it conjure up? Writing by candlelight in a darkened room, wearing a cape, then maybe waiting to see the reaction to

the anonymous disconcerting message. But to what end? Well, Emily Cockane, Associate Professor in Early Modern History at the University of East Anglia is here to enlighten us about the practice, how it started, why women have often been implicated as the perpetrators. We do know that online trolls have definitely brought poison pen letters into the modern day, but we'll talk about them too. Emily, welcome. Hello. Thank you for having me. You're so welcome. Why did you want to research this? Well, I was researching a book on neighbours back in 2010,

and I came across the Little Hampton case, which is currently the subject of a film, Wicked Little Letters. And it's a case where neighbours, it's the relationship and neighbours that's the focus. And I got interested in the road, Western Road, that these letters were written on. And it became one of the five case study streets in my book, Cheat by Jal. I couldn't let it go. It's like, you know, social historians are so nosy. And you think, what contexts create letters like like this so I thought I'd contextualise them by looking at more. So what do you think it is what does create a poison pen letter? Oh well it depends what you mean so. Yes what do we mean by poison pen letter maybe we should get

down to brass tacks. So poison pen letter is a very specific type of anonymous letter so I looked at anonymous letters and those would be letters that you don't know who wrote or it wasn't really obvious who wrote them because they not signed by a name. And so then I look at poison pen letters, which is a sort of distinct part of that. The term developed in around 1911. It was used by an American newspaper, the Maryland Evening News, and then it was picked up by the British press by about the 1920s. And they stopped using the inverted commas on poison pen eventually. What we would see as a poison pen letter is a letter written by, maybe we'd think it's sort of an uptight spinster.

But why? Why did the uptight spinster get the poison pen letter attributed to her? Well, it's all political reasons, isn't it? So if you think of the period, women are trying to get suffrage, are trying to get the vote. And I think what happens at the time is that the men in charge of the police and the press and the legal system don't like this. So we look at a case, for example, of Annie Tugwell. So she was writing letters, probably, although I'm not certain that she wrote them all, in 1910 and 1913 and probably before as well. And so the police are really interested in her for three whole weeks in 1913. I mean, it's like there were other things going on.

I think that's quite a lot of manpower. Why they think women, I mean, it's women out of their station, women writing things. They shouldn't be so threatening things, obscene things and libelous things. It's interesting that they have kind of the women in some of these cases. I mean, were women more likely to write them? I don't think so. I think women were more likely to write letters that go into people's houses rather than go into their workplace.

So if we look at anonymous letters, I think it was just that there was a press obsession with the particular type of letter that were about gossip in small communities. And the police and the press really didn't think that that's the sort of thing that women should be stirring up sort of problems in their communities. They should be good neighbours, not sort of spiteful or saucy or naughty neighbours. Saucy, saucy letters. Tell us about them. Oh, so I look at obscene letters as well. So obscene anonymous letters, the equivalent of sort of sending somebody the wrong sort of picture online now. And now what was really interesting is that most of these were written before the 20th century by men. And the press

is not at all interested in those. They don't really put the details on. They just say that the woman was really disgusted. And they're often not read out loud in court. Get to about 1895, where you've got a couple of cases where women are writing obscene letters. Suddenly, the press is really interested in that. And so I've got a letter here from Annie Tugwell, we think. So now the context to this is Annie Tugwell wrote her letters in the handwriting of a minor enemy of hers. Yeah. And then, so she's framing one person,

and then she wrote them, the main focus was a major enemy of hers. So that was the local canon, canon Cafferata, Catholic canon. And so what this letter, that's a woman writing in 19 canon. And so what this letter, that's a woman writing in 1910. And so what the implication, there's lots in this letter. It's about, she's teasing with the police as well. You know, we know that we're being watched by Detective Entercap, that sort of thing.

And so these sorts of letters are really interesting when they're written by women because the press just gets so fascinated. And even though it's a historical letter, I will apologise for the bad language that is in that letter, although not fully articulated. But that fascination with women not perhaps knowing their place or being in the place that they wanted men and men wanted them to be in at that time, was that the fascination? I think so. But also there's a fascination with anonymity generally.

And so, but it means if you're anonymous, you're sort of disinhibited. You can write things that you wouldn't normally write. So that's why it taps into things like libel, malicious libel. So the anonymous part of the letter writing means that you can be somebody else. You can sort of wear the mantle of somebody else. You can feel more popular, for example. And anonymity itself was not illegal. But there were prosecutions, like in Wimbledon in 1938.

This was the case of Winifred Ava Simner. She was a well-respected woman. What was she charged with exactly? And the pen nib came into this case when it went ahead to court. So Winifred Simner was accused of sort of sowing discontent within Wimbledon by writing to members of the council and would-be mayors and people like that as though they're from other people. So often she was signing as though they were from the local Labour Party. And so she, I mean, what I get the impression with Winifred Simner is she used to be

quite important in the lead up to the First World War. But in the lead up to the Second World War, she's kind of old and not really got anywhere. But she thinks she's from the ruling elite. She's the daughter of, she's from the Raj, and she thinks she should be part of the ruling elite. And she's looking around Wimbledon, and she's seeing all sorts of men, and there are always men,

who are doing things that she thinks are wrong. They shouldn't be in that position, for example. And so she writes these libelous letters about people like Councillor Russell, she focused on a lot. She accused lots of men in the council of doing things like taking poppy money day, poppy day money, that sort of thing. And the pen nib, the pen nib is really important at the time because the letters are all written in red ink and they're written in a particular handwriting. So when she's up in court, when they find out who it is, and there's a sort of sting operation involving marked stamps that find out that it is Winifred Simner. So she's on the witness stand and they say, can you use this fine nibbed pen? And she

sort of makes a big mess of everything, gets blotchy. And she says, oh, I can't write with a fine nib pen. It's a little bit, it reminds me of a little bit of OJ Simpson trying to put the glove on in his case. And so then they say, you know, it's her sort of pretending she can't use a fine nibbed pen. And so what was quite interesting at the time is that Richard Llewellyn had put out a play called Poison Pen that was becoming made into a film. It was a really important piece of work at the time. And he says in that, you've got to be careful about what nib you use. You know, if you carry on using the same nib, then it'd be obvious. So people were focused on handwriting, but also the tool with which you write things in.

So it comes up in the Winifred Simner case. So it is every step, whether it's the writing, the pen, where it's mailed from. But, you know, I started this thinking about really online trolling and social media. I mean, do you see a line or a narrative going from some of these stories that you've heard to what's online now, which is often perhaps more characterised, expected to be men that are sending them? And that is a generalisation, but that is often what is considered. Yeah, so I'd say we need to look at it two ways. So one is the people who are putting out there anonymously. And I would say, we can't assume that it's necessarily who we think it is.

Some newspapers have invited their worst below the comment, you know, commenters into their offices and found that they're quite nice. And that leads me into this idea that if you do something anonymously, you lose that inhibition. So you write things in a way that you wouldn't if you put your name to it. So I think if we look at the people putting anonymous stuff out there, there are similarities. There's certainly a line. If we look at receiving anonymous things. Yes. That's different, I think. So letters that came into your house, for example, it's a really tangible thing. If a letter could come in, particularly if it was threatening something,

it could be followed by, what, a brick through the window or somebody at your door. So I think there's a greater sense of tangibility with these letters. And I've brought some with me that I can leave with you if you want to put them on social media. That takes it into your house into your personal space whereas online it's slightly different a you can block it but b also it's available to everybody so if you think so it's not a private exactly it's like public shaming so you're privately shamed often with these letters that might say, I know you did something. But online, that's a public thing.

And just as you leave, you are a consultant for the forthcoming film, I should say, Wicked Little Letters about the Little Hampton Libels case starring Olivia Colman. What do you think is the intent of the person who's sending the poison pen letter? To unsettle somebody. But we often don't know what their intent is or their motivation. And we don't know who it is either. No. Emily, thank you so much. Emily Cockane,

Associate Professor in Early Modern History at the University of East Anglia. Really interesting stuff. Thanks for all your messages coming in. I'm 70 and I've been having fierce hot flushes every hour, 24 hours a day since 1998.

Claire, I still have symptoms post-menopause in my 60s. I'm 70 and I've been having fierce hot flushes every hour, 24 hours a day since 1998. Claire, I still have symptoms post-menopause of my 60s. My hand had some hot flushes into her 70s. Sue, I thought the menopause was a process, not an event. As hormone levels continue to decrease, I consider I'm still in that process at nearly 67. So lots of your stories coming in about the health survey. Thank you so much for those. Keep them coming. 84844. Right. This week, a new series on Women's Hour called The Knock. We will be hearing the stories of two women whose lives were changed

when they were told that a loved one had been arrested for sexual offences against children. Today, we're going to hear from a woman we're calling Anne. Our reporter, Jo Morris asked Anne to take her back to the day that the knock came. It was an ordinary sort of day. He was out on business. When he was out on business he'd often phone me. It used to irritate me at times because he would phone me and I'd be in the middle of a chore but it was all about him and he was in the car bored so he'd be phoning and he'd phoned we'd had a wonderful weekend we'd had friends had a lovely time everything was well and happy I was expecting

him home for supper about 6 30 and he just didn't arrive so I started to phone and text and he just didn't respond I was really getting quite anxious and And then at half past nine, the door went, and I opened the door to find two uniformed police, one in high vis, and I automatically assumed that they'd come to tell me he'd been killed in a car crash or there was something seriously wrong. There was no other reason I could think of for two police on my doorstep. They came in, and they presented a search warrant and told me that he'd been arrested. He'd been caught in a sting by vigilantes and he'd subsequently been arrested for attempting to meet a 13-year-old 13 year old girl at a hotel I was just shocked is an understatement I don't know how I function

but I did manage to function it's really weird I think I'd just gone into severe shock but I was still able to offer them a cup of tea for example and still be very polite because they were officials. And I took them everywhere in the house where I knew he had devices. Fortunately, they left me with my phone, but they took every single electronic device that he had access to. Off they went, and that was it. What happened when they left? I just stood there behind the door and thought, what am I going to do? You know, door and thought what what am I going to do

you know what's happened what am I going to do. Would you say that before this happened Anne would you say that you had a good marriage? I would say we had a pretty perfect marriage for our age you know we weren't fortunate enough to have children, so that was a big sadness. It was an unexplained infertility, but there were advantages in that, and that's how I looked at it. You've got to look at the bright side, so we had lovely holidays, and we were looking forward to a very comfortable old age. We got plans that we were going to sell up in the UK, buy a house maybe in Spain, and just live a good life and a relaxed life. Mostly it was us together. It always was us together. I trusted him. I really trusted him

with my life. We used to often joke and say, what would happen if this plane, if it crashed and we needed an emergency exit? And he would always say say I would always make sure you got out and things like that you know I would always make sure you were safe and I often think about that because actually he was saying that and physically he probably would but mentally he was about just to push me under the water and hold me down in there that's that's really how it feels it felt like he'd almost murdered me I know that sounds very hard but it was like he killed me that that day that that killed me he didn't really understand that for a long time I don't think the impact that it had on me so even with the best marriage in the world, the only people we really truly know are ourselves. This is one of the last pictures of us together

when we were away on a nice holiday celebrating his birthday. I had no idea. How old were you in that picture? 59. So you've got brown hair i know die and you've got a lovely green dress on and you're both holding a glass of yeah fizzy stuff i know can you remember that photo being taken yeah yeah i mean it was just a lovely holiday and at this time presumably he was starting to go down a dark path or was already down a dark path, I don't know.

But you sort of look at pictures. I found it quite hard, actually, because you know how the phones just bring up memories. And for a long time, I'd switch on my photographs and there'd be memories and it'd be him smiling somewhere you know you just get these flashbacks of life as it used to be so you haven't deleted the photos no I was very tempted at one stage were you yeah and then I decided I can't I can't destroy my life. And so how can I just erase it? How long were you together?

Married for 39 years. How old were you when you met him? 17, we started going out together. So it's a long time. A long, long, long, long time. What did you like about him when you first met him? He was just a lovely man. Everybody loved him.

Everybody loved him. I would have said in our friendship group he was the one that everybody liked and I was the one that was probably a little bit more oh she can be a bit tricky that was it was sort of this is the one for me how long after this photo was taken was your husband about three months after that he He was arrested? Yeah. Looking back now, were there ever any signs of this? Did you ever have any suspicions about any of this? I trusted him, so I didn't ever check what he was doing on his phone. I just trusted him. I had no reason not to trust him.

And I was very unaware of this as an area of crime anyway. But you look back and you question everything and you think well did he really need to be spending so long in the bathroom in the morning you know he always has always had if you're not careful it can drive you nuts actually just trying to think but how and what and why I'm not a stupid woman I am quite a good judge of character and that's what everybody that I've spoken to is everybody says we don't believe it nobody has said who've known him that they expected him to do that it's come as a massive shock I was left to pick up the pieces I would say for a good, I was phoning and talking to all my friends and family

and his family, interestingly, because he just ran from it all. He didn't talk to anybody. I didn't talk to him for days. I've spent probably, since his arrest, in total, an hour with him. That all yeah yeah and that's just to hand property over to him he hasn't ever been back to the house he wasn't able to come back to the house i wouldn't want him anywhere near the house still i still feel anxious if he was here so i've got cameras around i'm now really rely on them had to have this great

big bolt put on on the back door on the back gate because i was frightened of people coming in vigilantes yeah what were you scared of might happen attacking or anything or setting fire to the house or frightened yeah it's it's quite illogical but in a way it isn't because people have been targeted I live in a good area most people are very kind but people travel don't they and if they know where you live at one stage my goddaughter phoned me and said your address has been put on facebook now so people know where you live and your car is on there in her view i was in danger so i panicked and phoned another friend and she really kindly packed me up into a car she said pack a case I'm going to come and take you away to see my daughter who's a GP so my brain just wasn't functioning you just didn't fight or flight I was

yeah and it and she took me and actually that was probably the best therapy I had was those those few hours with this GP daughter who had a young baby but gave me the time to talk me through what was happening to me why I was feeling the way I was feeling she just calmed me right down I was really frightened because the whole world was getting to know about this before I'd even had a chance to even understand it myself. And they'd all decided that he was guilty. It's something I don't think anybody should have to go through. And then they all seem to work together to make sure it spreads far and wide.

What sort of things were they saying about you? To be honest, a lot of it I've just like numbed out. People saying I must have known that was the one that hurt me the most, that people thought I knew that and that I was going along with it. And I didn't know because I love children. And actually, I would say that's one of the things that really impacted me very hard was I felt guilty even looking at children after that. It was a really weird thing.

I've got God children with their own children and I felt I didn't want to be around them. I didn't feel I could touch them because I felt like I was as guilty as he was, even though I had nothing to do with any of it. It's a horrible thing that you're left with, that scar, and you think everybody's looking at you and judging. It took me a long time to get

over that to be honest to actually hold another child and have them on my knee yeah that was that was really painful yeah I'm really sorry yeah no I know see I'll get upset about it thinking about it but yeah it was hard and I don't think people who get behind their keyboards and write this stuff understand that they're innocent people who are very much impacted. They call it the knock, don't they? They do, yeah. What did you think, Anne, when you saw the police standing there and you opened the door? I just thought that he'd died. I thought he'd been killed in a car crash. I would have preferred, actually, if they'd have said he has been killed in a car crash. I would have preferred, actually, if they'd

have said he has been killed in a car crash. That would have been easier to deal with, if I'm brutally honest. You'd rather he died? It sounds really awful. I mean, I've got a friend who lost her husband a year before, and we often have this discussion, and she says that she believes mine's much worse because there's no closure on it. There is no end to it. He is still out there living his life and we're still trying to untangle everything. There is no celebration of the man that he was. He's now remembered by everybody as the person that went to meet a

13 year old. No matter how many promises he makes, I wouldn't ever believe him. So for me, that was the end of the relationship. But that doesn't mean to say that I disagree with anybody who makes a different decision, because it is a very personal thing. But for me, my values and my morals and, yeah, just the way I am, I just know life would be miserable for both of us if we tried to carry it on. But for others, they want to carry on. They want to work hard and they want to make it good, particularly if there's children involved. When we spoke on the phone and before I came to see you you said to me after this happened it made you glad you hadn't had children. Yeah for me suddenly

not having children was a blessing. I'm so relieved not to have children and grandchildren to have to factor into this and to keep going on strong for so it's that trying to look for the little silver linings and the blessings that I have with it I am very very fortunate and I so recognize that I've been so well supported by people but I think some of that is about the fact that I've been quite open about it all as well I don't hide it at all and in fact there was a wedding I was invited to and part of the you know it's fine for you to come we'd like you to come but could you make up a story as to why your husband isn't with you because we haven't told our family and I just couldn't go to the wedding I said I'm I can't do that because it's part of me and who I am.

And I can't make up a lie to cover. It just didn't sit right with me. So I'm quite clear about those sorts of things. I don't want to pretend that I'm with him or, you know, he's ill or something like that. I just want to live an honest life. It's because honesty and trust is so important that I don't want to lie to people that I know. So I just can't do it. Early days, how much support did you get from services? Were you signposted anywhere? Did the police leave any leaflets or tell you? No, I had no signposting. They just, I think they

just said something like, you ought toposting they just I think they just said something like you ought to see your doctor I think they did say that but no everything I found myself by going online and just trying to find out trying to make sense of things and Lucy Faithful Forum that's where I got a lot of help from just reading other people's stories we set up a little group and we had a few ladies join it and we had a video call and I remember that first video call seeing these normal looking women who are going through a similar thing to me and that feeling of you're not alone and that's that is immense why did you want to talk to today? I just want to try and influence some change just to get people to really think about this as a problem for society and it's going to be

happening and is happening every day. There's a family being destroyed every day. Thanks so much the woman we are calling Anne. The Lucy Faithful Foundation mentioned there the Child Protection Charity, which supports the families of offenders and has researched the impact of the knock

and its aftermath on families. We'll be speaking to Anita on Friday and details of sources of information and support can be found on our website. I also want to let you know that tomorrow, Jo Morris will be talking

to a woman we're calling Evie about the difficult decision she made to keep in touch with the sex offender in her family. Now, let's see you getting in touch on the health survey. Let me see.

I'm 72 in a few weeks time and still having several severe hot flushes during the day. I'm at my wits end. Another Sylvia. I was driving while hearing you talking about the survey. I was 48 when I started the menopause. But what about young girls?

My daughter started their periods at 10 and 9 years of age. What about their views? So 84844. But I want to turn to another aspect of health now. A major analysis of NHS England staff published today in the British Journal of Surgery, has found that female surgeons are being sexually harassed and in some cases raped by colleagues. You might have heard these headlines this morning in the news. Nearly two-thirds of

women surgeons that responded to this study said they had been the target of sexual harassment and a third had been sexually assaulted by colleagues in the past five years. The BBC's health and science correspondent James James Gallagher, has been speaking to a surgeon called Judith who shared her experiences. I was assisting a consultant on a case. I guess he'd got a bit sweaty, but turned around and just buried his head right into my breasts. And I realised he was wiping his brow on me. And you just freeze, right?

Why is his face in my cleavage, you know? And then, you know, a little while later, he turns around, he does exactly the same thing all over again. So I said, excuse me, do you want me to get you a towel? And he said, no, this is much more fun. And it was the smirk and, you know, just everything about it, I felt dirty, I felt humiliated. Tamsin Cumming is a consultant surgeon and chair of the Women in Surgery Forum at the Royal College

of Surgeons of England. She's also co-chair of the Working Party on Sexual Misconduct in Surgery which worked with the universities of Exeter and Surrey on this research. Welcome Tamsin to Woman's Hour. Does that testimony surprise you? Thank you for having me on the programme. I think we, all of us who've been working in surgery for some years knew that this was happening. But only when we started doing this research did we realise just how prevalent it is. Yeah, and hearing that is difficult. But I'm not surprised because it's very similar to other stories we've heard. What do our listeners need to know about the findings? I think what you need to know is that this is still happening.

So that teams in healthcare, and it probably isn't only surgery, this where these sort of events are happening. You know, that that person, Judith, who, you know, she was in an operation when this happened. She was paying a part in that operation. And so, you know, if we if the actions as a response to this paper and also to our report can help bring about some change, what we're asking for is a more respectful environment in theatre for a start, but also policies so that when that kind of thing is reported, it will be taken seriously

and that person will be disciplined. So you called it a me-too moment for surgery in the piece I was reading in today in The Times. But, you know, you're asking for a respectful situation in surgery. Surely there's a code of conduct already. Surely that should be a given. You would think so. You know, you shouldn't need to be asking for a code of conduct to say, please don't molest the people that you work with.

But although there are codes of conduct in most trusts, they're not specific to sexual misconduct. And so, you know, that is just a basic, it can easily be brought in. So something like that with specific ramifications, if in fact it's broken? Exactly. But the other part of it, and I want to know from you, Tamsin, if there's something particular about surgery which makes this hard to tackle. I know we often hold surgeons on a pedestal, male or female, because of the amazing work that they can do. And, you know, apart from being a patient, I'm never going to be in that particular role and most people that are listening won't be

either. Like, what is it like in there there and is there something intrinsically about the operating theatre that has a weird dynamic so i think i think there is i think that although this is um prevalent across all of health care and there was some work done early in the year that showed that um surgery might have a particular problem so part of that is the that it that there's a strong hierarchy. You know, whether you progress in surgery and get trained, you're desperate to learn how to do these things and become expert at them. You have to be trained by somebody. Now, 85% of consultants are men.

So you're going to be trained by a man most probably. Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of men are, you know, wonderful people. We need them as allies to change this. But there are women who are working under a man and at times, sometimes at night, in emergency situations, the boundaries get blurred. And we can see that particularly with some of these worst incidents that have happened outside of the hospital at conferences,

which is another occasion when incidents happen. Okay, because just as you're speaking about that, I'm thinking that there must be other people there when these acts of sexual misconduct happen. Absolutely. And although our survey did also include 10% of our respondents were anaesthetists, there are other people in the theatre, such as nurses, there'll be midwives, there both to monitor where we are other people affected, but also start monitoring how things are going to change. So if we have, say, for example, bring in a policy, if we have support for people who should be viewed as whistleblowers

when they're reporting this kind of activity and not belittled or silenced, then I think we'll see, like in the London Ambulance, servants have seen that reports will go up. So transparency needs to be there. But also we need the possibility of independent investigation for reports of sexual misconduct. And is that not there at the moment?

It is not there at the moment. And there are lots of people who have attempted to report things that have happened and have then been shut down by um by the place they work um i was struck by the research paper you say show there are significantly more women than men witnessing sexual harassment and assault terming this men and women living different realities yeah if you think about it the reality of walking into a job in surgery, whether that's as a nurse, whether that's as a operating department assistant or as a surgeon, you're far more likely to be faced with sexual harassment. So it's 63% versus 25% of men.

That's part of your everyday life. And the risk of being assaulted is there all the time, whereas it is there for men but very small number of men reported that and so that reality of work you've also got to learn exactly the same skills you've got to behave in the same way but you're managing this at the same time we did approach the department for health and social care and a spokesperson said the health and social care secretary is clear that sexual violence or misconduct of any kind is unacceptable and has no place in the nhs he is working closely with nhs leaders to root out this unacceptable behavior and ensure services are always safe for staff and for patients do you feel there is the political

will to make these changes so So we presented in May some of these early findings from our report to the GMC and NHS England and the Royal Colleges. And there has been, you know, a willingness to work collaboratively on this, which we really welcome. And NHS England have last week

published a charter. So things are changing already. More needs to be done. And at the GMC, the General Medical Council. And what about among surgeons? I mean, what's the chatter about this? I think what we find is, I mean, that's why we've entitled our report Breaking the Silence. Yes.

Now we've opened that up. Suddenly lots of people are coming forward saying this happened to me. Oh, and this happened to me. And so I think the fact that, you know, at the moment, there's been nowhere to report that. People have kept that to themselves. Now it's out in the open. That's the first step has to be done before we can address it. How has it been for you in your career?

So, you know, I've worked in surgery for decades. I've come across quite a lot of harassment like many other women who were at my stage i have to say until i started looking into this i thought it had got better but then i now realize that it's only because i'm now senior that it's got better for me so that was a bit of a of an eye-opener so that's the hierarchy again. Yeah. Tamsin Cumming, a consultant surgeon and chair of the Women in Surgery Forum at the Royal College of Surgeons of England, who was also co-chair, I should say,

of the Working Party on Sexual Misconduct in Surgery, which worked with the Universities of Exeter and Surrey on this researcher piece is in the Times today. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you.

I do want to read also a statement from the Royal College of Surgeons. Their president, Tim Mitchell, said, the findings of this survey are truly shocking. We have chosen careers in surgery to save lives. It's incredibly upsetting to know that so many of our colleagues' lives

have been so deeply affected and in some cases destroyed by this abhorrent behaviour. Let me be clear, there's no place in our operating theatres or anywhere in the NHS for sexual misconduct. NHS trusts need to take a long, hard look at whether the policies and procedures for sexual misconduct are fit for purpose, as do regulating bodies. And then we're able and supported to surgeons may feel more comfortable calling out behaviour and reporting it. The Royal College of Surgeons of England is taking the issue incredibly seriously.

We will not tolerate such behaviour in our ranks. And I will personally be asking our council members and leading surgeons to take that message back to their organisations. So we'll continue to follow this story. Now, let me turn to warm and wonderful are the words that come to mind of the film that I watched last night, Scrapper. It follows 12-year-old Georgie living

happily alone in a council house in London following the death of her mum. But when her absent father, Jason, turns up out of the blue, her whole world is disrupted. Jason left her life early on and she doesn't recognise him at first. But the film follows the two of them getting to know each other and to see whether they can function as a daughter and a dad. It's the feature debut from filmmaker Charlotte Regan. And while making the film, Charlotte knew that she wanted to make a different kind of film about working class Britain, one that reflected the truth of her childhood. It's in cinemas now. You might have seen it advertised, won the grand jury prize at this year's Sundance Film Festival.

And I'm delighted to say Charlotte is with me now. Welcome. Hi, how are you? Very well. Gosh, I loved your film. Oh, thank you. I'm very awkward with positivity. So, yeah.

Well, you're going to have to take it. You're going to have to take it for the next seven minutes. It is, it portrays, I suppose almost one of the characters in it is the council estate, but portrayed so beautifully in pastel colours. Tell me about the council estate, what it means in your life, what you wanted to bring across in your film. Yeah, I think we always just spoke about working class areas in general, whether that's a council estate or a street you live on

where everyone's knocking for one another. I think I'd just like, I mean, there were for sure films that did it, that showed the joy, but none that really captured kind of that feeling that I remembered of like spending endless summers with your friends and kind of having no idea that your life is any different to anyone else's. It's only when you kind of move into other spaces that you start to kind of identify that, I suppose.

So, yeah, we really pushed the boat out with the colours and drove my producer mad with painting houses and my production designer, Eleanor, was incredible and just went, yeah, went to town. Well, it works. And, you know, when I think about this film, I think about Georgie, which is the lead character

and a 12-year-old girl in her oversized West Ham shirt, living on her own, as I mentioned, after her mum's death. And she's a full-on 3D, 4D character. She steals bikes

to have a little money to pay the rent. I want to play a little clip of her being caught in the act. That's my bike. Oh, hi there. We were just making sure

that all of these bikes were road safety and we were just walking by. Oh, yours isn't, by the way. We were just walking by and we were just walking by. Oh, yours isn't, by the way. We were just walking by and we just... Yeah, we thought it looked a bit... You know?

Yeah. Guys should probably go get that serviced or something. Yeah, yeah, full service. You can never be too careful. Yeah, the, um... The bearing's, like, completely gone in the back wheel. Do you want me to be honest? Yeah.

You're far away. Well, just a little bit of lies, so... I just loved it. Lola Campbell plays Georgie. How did you find Lola? Oh, I feel like Lola found us and would have found us no matter what because she's just like an incredible human um but shaheen baig was our casting director who's incredible with young

people and lola sent us a tape where she just didn't do anything i asked her to do she was just like talking rubbish about home bargains and how it's a much better shop than B&M, which is a very valid opinion. But whether or not it needed five minutes, I don't know. And we just instantly were like, yeah, as soon as you meet her, she's just got like a magic to her, such like a mix of maturity and childishness. Which is Georgie in the film as well. And there is that mixture of magic, magic realism throughout it as well, which is beautiful.

But I thought it was groundbreaking when I was watching Georgie because I was like, why do I find this so compelling? I think it's because before it usually would have been a boy in that role instead of a girl. What made you cast a girl in that part? I think even when I first started writing it, I was writing it as a boy. And I think that it's just because I've naturally seen a lot of those like. Yes. Scrappy characters. And I feel like it's almost encouraged with boys.

Because before COVID, we got to go into schools and kind of meet kids and do open castings. And you found that like those kind of boys are almost like encouraged as like the life of the class. Yes. Within the school as where when we were like, no but we want we want him but you know a girl version of him who's causing trouble and you know um and then it's just not as yeah i feel like there are there are girls like that completely i've known that girl right maybe we've been that girl some of us and um yeah it's oh god it's so beautifully drawn i have to say um just in our last minute or so uh we're talking about uh sometimes poverty sometimes working class women what's it like being in the film industry hanging out at sundance

getting these awards as a working class woman? I don't know. No, it's good. I feel like I, like 1% belong a little bit more every year, which is cool because I've started from quite a low percentage and I'm surrounded by my friends who have had very similar experiences

or just understand it. So I'm surrounded by an incredible group of people where I always feel like I'm supported and backed. So I have a very lucky kind of privileged outlook on it. I know you say you don't take the praise. The film is wonderful and it's going to do so, so well. I know it's on now. Scrapper is the name.

Charlotte Regan is my guest. Thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. Thank you for having me. Well, tomorrow we, join me. We'll have the best-selling crime author Jane Casey in the studio, along with actor Emma Appleton, who stars in the new TV adaptation

of Jane's novel, The Killing Kind. Also, is Mexico going through a feminist revolution? We will talk about all of those. Thanks so much for all your contributions today on Woman's Hour. I will see you tomorrow.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. What if I told you that death may not be inevitable? Is it possible that a fundamental of existence that we've always had as a species, that we will all inevitably die, is that still true? And that there are technologists promising everlasting life.

We can and should use technology to enhance and expand and augment human capacities. Who's behind the modern movement for immortality? Where else do you find the promise of living longer or forever? It's just like religion and Silicon Valley. I'm Alex Kratosky. Find out on Intrigue the Immortals from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

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