Woman's Hour - Dr Suzanne Simard & plant intelligence, Refugee women, Scottish govt & GRC, Inheritance laws & abusers, Sexist uniforms

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

For over thirty years Dr Suzanne Simard has done ground-breaking research on plant communication and intelligence. She is Professor of Forest Ecology at the University of British Columbia and the author of a gripping scientific memoir, Finding the Mother Tree, in which she reveals the highly complex ways trees interact and communicate. Suzanne joins Jessica in the studio.As the Russian invasion of Ukraine continues, around 660,000 refugees, most of whom are women and children, have now fled Ukraine to neighbouring countries in the past six days. That's according to the latest data from the UN Refugee Agency.  They say Europe could face it’s largest refugee crisis this century. Many have fled to Poland where they have been welcomed in cities like Warsaw. But while many countries are opening their arms to refugees, the charity CARE International UK is warning that women and girls can be particularly at risk during widespread displacement in war situations, as they can face exploitation while trying to reach safety. Suzy Madigan is the charity’s Senior Humanitarian Advisor on Gender and Protection.The Scottish Government is expected to introduce its long-awaited Gender Reform Bill at Holyrood tomorrow - a law that would make it easier for transgender people to obtain a Gender Recognition Certificate. The BBC's Scotland correspondent Lorna Gordon joins us to discuss.A person guilty of manslaughter or murder is already prevented from inheriting their victim’s estate by what’s known as the Forfeiture Rule. But should that law be extended to somebody guilty of domestic abuse? MP Florence Eshalomi is attempting to change the law after one of her constituents wrote to her. Tom Guha has had to deal with exactly this since his mother died and his stepfather’s behaviour was found to have a direct link to her death. Tom clarifies the circumstances and Florence Eshalomi explains why she wants to alter the inheritance rules. Last month a new high-end sushi restaurant in Surrey came under scrutiny for publishing a dress code that asked women to wear “sexy black ankle-strap heels with a form-fitting top” or “bodycon dresses”. The restaurant has since apologised and changed the “sexist” uniform requests. Anna Sebastian is a Hospitality Consultant who has experience with hotels, bars and restaurants. Claire Curzon is the Managing Director of Brighter Directions – a marketing and communications agency. Both Anna and Claire discuss how attitudes towards women and dress codes have changed.Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Dr Suzanne Simard Photographer: Diana Markosian Interviewed Guest: Suzy Madigan Interviewed Guest: Lorna Gordon Interviewed Guest: Florence Eshalomi Interviewed Guest: Tom Guha Interviewed Guest: Anne Sebastian Interviewed Guest: Clare Curzon

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now, we'd really like your input on one of our stories this morning. Have you ever been required to wear a uniform or abide by a dress code that you didn't quite feel comfortable with? Whether that was being pressured to wear high heels when you would rather not, or wear a revealing top or a skirt perhaps that was a little too short. How did it make you feel? Did you challenge your bosses on it?

You might have heard about a restaurant that was recently criticised for suggesting women should wear sexy black ankle-strap heels, amongst other things, as part of its dress code. They have since apologised. But what do you think? Did that restaurant go too far? Were their suggestions sexist? I'd love to hear from you. You can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour or, as always, email us through our website.

Do give us your thoughts as we'll be discussing whether attitudes to women and how they dress are changing. Also on the programme, the Scottish Government is expected to introduce its long-awaited gender reform bill tomorrow, which if passed would make it easier for transgender people to obtain a gender recognition certificate would have the latest on what is being proposed. Plus, did you know that trees can communicate with each other? When we're taking a stroll through the park surrounded by trees, unbeknown to many of us, deep underground in the soil, these trees are sending messages to each other. And these trees can even change their behaviour depending on the plants and animals nearby. Dr Suzanne Simard will join me in the studio a little bit later

and she's been at the forefront of groundbreaking research on plant communication and intelligence. And we'll also be discussing whether there should be a change in the law to prevent those found guilty of domestic violence from inheriting their victim's estate. MP Florence Eshalomi is campaigning for change after being contacted by one of her constituents who is currently facing this exact situation.

Both will be joining us on the programme. But first, as the Russian invasion of Ukraine continues, around 660,000 refugees, most of whom are women and children, have now fled Ukraine to neighbouring countries in the past six days. That's according to the latest data from the UN Refugee Agency. They say Europe could face its largest refugee crisis this century. Many have fled to Poland, where they have been welcomed in cities like Warsaw. Here's the mayor of Warsaw, Rafal Trzakowski, who was on the Today programme earlier.

In the past few days, half a million refugees crossed the Ukrainian-Polish border. Hundreds of thousands are heading towards Warsaw. For now, most of them are taken care of by their families and by their friends. But of course, you know, that is changing by the minute. We are organising shelters. We are opening our own homes. We are renting hotels in order to help the refugees. More than 2,000 have already found a roof above their head. And we are doing everything we can. We are providing them with food, with water, with medical assistance.

Of course, we are trying also to sort out all the documents and all the details. The mayor of Warsaw there, but while many countries are opening their arms to refugees, at the charity Care International UK is warning that women and girls can be particularly at risk during widespread displacement in war situations, as they can face exploitation or trying to reach safety. Now Susie Madigan is the charity's senior humanitarian advisor on gender and protection and she joins us now. Welcome to the programme Susie. So what are you hearing about the current situation on the ground in Ukraine? Well Jessica I mean it's absolutely desperate there. I mean we've seen from images on the news but also we're hearing from our partners there on the ground. The needs are huge. I mean, it's incredible to think that just one week ago, people were safe in their homes and now suddenly being forced to flee, you know, horrendous violence. So, I mean, Ukraine is a population of over 40 million.

We've seen estimates that possibly a million people will have tried to flee the conflict over the next day or two. And so imagine that amount of people trying to get to the border. And, you know, absolutely yes it's it's majority is women and children as men have not been allowed to leave ukraine so um you know immediate basic needs are the need for food for for warmth for shelter um but also you know these these situations particularly can affect um women women in different ways. And the risk of gender based violence certainly is a risk across different types of gender based violence, from harassment to exploitation.

Yeah, the UNHCR has today tweeted that it will make protection from gender based violence and sexual exploitation of women a priority in its response to this Ukraine crisis. So what are the ways in which women can be impacted differently to men when they're displaced by conflict? Yeah, I mean, and it's always important to take that kind of real nuanced analysis of any conflict or displacement setting to understand exactly how it impacts men and women and people of different ages and people of different vulnerabilities in individual ways. Obviously, the men who are going off to fight will be at real risk of physical violence. But for the women who are left within Ukraine,raine and you know i mentioned the population um lots of people you know many you mentioned 660 000 people have already fled but that's a lot of women um women and girls who are still left within ukraine which happens to have a

very high proportion of of um females it's 54 at the population of females. So the kind of things that can happen, I mean, within a conflict context itself, because there are two things going on here, right? There are people who are trapped within conflict. And of course, Ukraine has been suffering conflict for eight years now in the east of the country um but so within that conflict context there is always the the risk of conflict violence when rule of law diminishes there is a sense of impunity and of course you know when people are walking around with weapons that that can be can be a real threat um now i don't want to talk that up too much we haven't you know the problem is that data coming out of Ukraine is very limited so you know we don't want to kind of create fear of what might

happen in terms of you know sexual violence within war but of course you know we need to make sure there are protection we need to call for international humanitarian law to be respected, for the protection of civilians to be respected. So that is really important. But actually, one of the really big impacts of any conflict or disaster situation is domestic violence can rapidly, rapidly increase. And in fact, we know already from reports that gender basedbased violence affects at least one-fifth of women in the Ukraine. That was already a situation in place. Ukraine and in other countries are often the first responders for women, particularly where it's a society where women's rights are not always, you know, equal to men's. And that's not just, you know, kind of in terms of political participation, but in society in general.

And we know that, you know that certain levels of discrimination and inequality have already existed in that region. And there is a sense that for gender-based violence, it's difficult for women to seek services and speak out in terms of risk of community stigmatisation, but also not believing that they are going to have their... You know, there's going to have their, you know, there's going to be any response to their complaints.

And certainly, you know, within any war-affected, conflict-affected situation, the psychological distress that that creates within a community, you know, when people are going off and when, you know, when men are going off to conflict and then coming back, back to communities, often, sadly, that violence that, you know, they've experienced can translate into violence at home. And certainly, you know, within that, within the conflict that has happened, the incidence of GBV has really increased already within the East. And we expect that to continue within Ukraine as a whole.

In addition to that, sorry, I'll let you ask a question. I was going to mention the issues that can happen within displacement situations as well. Yeah, please do. Please go on. And I also wonder about those women who may be older, those women with varying physical needs or who might be pregnant, how their situation is impacted as well? Yeah, I mean, absolutely, because 30% of the people currently in need, you know, previous to this escalation in conflict, were over 60. So for,

you know, people who are older and the majority of the older people as well, because women outlive men by around 10 years in the Ukraine, the majority of people affected in the eastern region were, you know, were older people and many of them were women. So that really increases the difficulty for people to be able to escape. You know, when people have limited mobility, and this also, you know, is relevant to people with disabilities as well, certain physical disabilities, also those with serious medical conditions, it's very difficult for them to be able to escape these conflicts. And often families are having to make heartbreaking decisions about who they can take with them. You know, they're physically, you know, women are only taking physically who they can carry,

you know, hold hands of children either side and what they can carry on their backs. So that is a major issue. And then, you know, thinking about the risk of exploitation and, of course, you know, trafficking as well. Whenever anybody leaves, you know, whenever anybody is in a situation where they're suddenly reliable for basic needs on other people, that is a very vulnerable situation. And so, you know, we've seen this, unfortunately, in countless conflicts before, from Yemen to Afghanistan to Venezuela to Syria. You know, suddenly that need, where there is an imbalance

of power and a desperate need for survival, often, unfortunately, there are people who will take advantage of that, notwithstanding the incredible outpouring of, you know, humanity and good deeds that we're seeing on the border. Yeah, we have seen a lot of that. There's been a lot of that projected to us here in the UK, in terms of TV reports and radio reports. We're seeing people reaching out to help refugees, welcoming them into their homes, perhaps driving them to neighbouring countries. But what's the danger of that? Does that cause potential issues for women?

It absolutely does. You know, of course, it is fantastic to see that. But I guess, you know, when we think of any of our own experiences, experiences right if we were suddenly obliged to get into a car with a stranger or if we were obliged to stay in the home of a stranger you know and who also has other kind of different people coming to that house we have to acknowledge there is a risk there we also have to acknowledge that there is a risk as children are being sent over the border by desperate families in Ukraine who, for one reason or another, can't leave themselves but want to get at least one or two of their children to safety.

Unaccompanied children, it's a huge risk, which is why one of the partners that Care International is partnering with is actually focused on child protection and looking at, you know, the risks of trafficking as well. Well, yeah. How can the international community, how can international relief help counteract these dangers? Well, I think it's really important to put in place protection, you know, protection staff and NGOs, UN agencies, to make sure, you know, people are being registered as refugees. And also there is some kind of system to kind of check who they're, you know, who they're going with. You know, this is difficult because it's a chaotic situation and people desperately need help, but they also need some choice about where they're going.

So, you know, I would advise that, you know, urgently we need to have, you know, UN and government run and NGO run, you know, shelters put up so that, you know that protection measures can be put in place, sex-segregated dorms, safe toilets and things like that. But also thinking about going forward, unfortunately, it looks like this is not a crisis that is going to end quickly. Well, yes, exactly. And you've outlined the immediate need and perhaps what might happen in the short term. But long term term what lasting impact

could this have well exactly i mean you know and as people are um welcomed and you know let's hope the uk government can also um you know open doors as well um uh you know some extra effort there to welcome refugees um as this continues we'll need to think about refugee, people become empowered and are less vulnerable when they have choice and when they have financial independence. So, you know, thinking about livelihoods options, making sure that people are legally registered so that they have, you know, they have their rights and they can realise their rights. Because that's something, for example, we've seen in horrendous exploitation of Syrian refugees around the region in the Middle East,

and also sometimes in Europe as well. When people don't have those kind of legal papers, it can put them in real danger. So it's looking at all of the different elements that make people vulnerable, make them reliant on others, take away their choice and independence. And that's where we put in the protection measures. That's where we give them power so they're not vulnerable to exploitation. Susie, thank you for your insights this morning. Pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Now, the Scottish government is expected to introduce its long-awaited gender reform bill tomorrow. If passed, it would make it easier for transgender people to obtain a gender recognition certificate. The BBC's Scotland correspondent, Lorna Gordon, joins me now. Good morning to you, Lorna. So could you just explain what the purpose of the gender reform bill is and what exactly is being proposed? Yeah, the bill would reform the process by which transgender people gain legal recognition of the lives they lived and the gender they lived their life in. It would amend the current law. It wouldn't abolish the previous law. And I think, in effect, it would make it easier for transgender people to legally change their gender.

The reason why the Scottish government thinks this is needed is because it says the current system has an adverse impact on people applying for gender recognition due to the requirement for a medical diagnosis. And what they say is the level of intrusion required. It says it doesn't want transgender people to go through procedures which are demeaning, intrusive, distressing, stressful. And it says it needs to take account of international developments, bring the country in line with other countries, such as the Republic of Ireland, Norway, Malta, Denmark, for instance. And also it says the system as it currently is,

is complex and needs to be simplified. So what the bill could propose, what we know is that there's been consultations and the proposals as published for the consultation suggested that they could reduce the time a transgender person would live in their acquired gender from 24 months, that's two years, to a minimum of three months with a further period of three months of reflection. Remove the need for a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And as proposed, reduce the age someone can apply from 18 down to 16. Now, of course, we have to wait till the bill is actually published, which will happen at some point within the next 24 hours or so to see whether these are exactly as was suggested in the consultation. But that's certainly what they've consulted on in the past. I see. And I understand that this is it's been a long time coming, hasn't it?

The consultations were held way back in 2018. So why has it taken this amount of time to get here? There's been two consultations. The first one was back in 2018, 2017, 2018, 15,500 or so responses, majority in favour of reform. But off the back of that, the Scottish government admitted or conceded that this is a debate that has been polarised, become polarised here in Scotland and elsewhere. And so I think that's why they then led to a second consultation with the aim, they said, to alleviate any concerns people might have, explain what they're proposing. And that second consultation came back at the end of last year. The back half of last year, had about 17,000 responses to that one, mostly from individuals, a couple of hundred from organisations.

And again, it kind of showed up from those who responded, who are people who've taken an interest in this debate so far. It was broadly, you know, split between those who are broadly supportive and those who are broadly opposed. Those supportive, of course, talking about the detrimental impact the current approach is having, they said, on trans people's health and well-being. Others saying, those who oppose, saying that they don't think the case for change has been made. And amongst those who responded to the government's consultation, saying they were very concerned about the potential impact the proposed changes might have on society in general, but also on the safety and well-being of women and girls in particular. So, polarised responses to that

second consultation as well. It seems like this is always going to be a contentious issue. Is it the type of issue that the wider population in Scotland are talking about, they're concerned about? No, I'm not sure they are, actually. I think if you go to people on their doorstep at the moment, this is not an issue that's punching through. If you're talking domestic politics, I think people would be talking about, you know, how am I going to pay my bills? How am I going to fill the car with petrol? You know, my gas electricity is going up. The shopping's horrendously expensive. These are the issues that are dominating. And I think that was that showed in a survey actually the BBC did a couple of weeks ago BBC Scotland did they they looked at that they

surveyed more than 2,000 people here in Scotland and I think what that showed and it was interesting it showed a general sympathy towards transgender people but some uncertainty and hesitation around the changes. It showed that some people have strongly held views on this issue. But outside of that small group of people who had strongly held views, it showed the rest of us are not really sure about where we stand on this issue and what the actual proposals are as well. So it's not punching through at the moment outside of a very polarised debate amongst people who are interested in this issue and concerned about this issue. And a debate that thus far has largely taken place in the realms of social media, which often can be a very polarising environment to start with. It can be. And what did this BBC poll reveal about younger generations and their attitudes?

Yeah, I mean, that was interesting. The younger generation attitudes, it really showed a very clear age divide, that under 35s are more inclined to take a position. They are much more sympathetic to reform than older people. And also actually showed that women were more in favour of the men of the reforms. But there is a very clear generational divide when it comes to reforming the process of getting a gender recognition certificate here in Scotland, with young people much more in favour of it. Now, is there anything unusual about the

way in which this statement is being introduced? What can you tell us about that? The bill will be, like I said, published at some point in the next 24 hours. Shona Robson is the minister who covers the brief here in Scotland in this area. She'll make a statement to Parliament, the Scottish Parliament, tomorrow afternoon, followed by questions. That's not exactly normal procedure, but it's not unheard of. I think it might be a bit of a political play, putting the defence out ahead of any potential controversy around what they're suggesting. I mean, there was interesting articles in the papers at the weekend, the Sunday Times stating that they think that there are about 10, possibly 10 SNP MSPs, that's the governing party here in Scotland, 10 SNP MSPs who are opposed to this bill, the reform of the bill. Some of those might be on,

you know, because of deeply held religious beliefs. Some might be because they're gender critical. Some might be concerned about the potential electoral consequences further down the line, albeit that this is early in the electoral cycle here in Scotland. But, you know, so Sean Watson will make this statement. There'll be time for questions afterwards. It will be interesting to see. We might get some sense of opposition from those who are opposed, why they're opposing, what particularly they're concerned about. But the fact of the matter is this is likely to pass through the Scottish Parliament because the majority of SNP MSPs will support it, as will the Greens and the Liberal Democrats.

They're expected to be in favour as well. Thank you for the update this morning. That was Lorna Gordon, the BBC's Scotland correspondent. Now, for over 30 years, Dr Suzanne Simard has done groundbreaking research on plant communication and intelligence. She is professor of forest ecology at the University of British Columbia in Canada and the author of a gripping scientific memoir, Finding the Mother Tree, in which she reveals the highly complex ways that trees interact and, yes, communicate.

And Suzanne joins me live in the studio. Very good morning to you, Suzanne. Great to see you. Just explain to us, though, what is a mother tree and why are they so important? Yeah, thanks for having me. So mother trees are the biggest trees in a forest. The reason they're important, not just because they provide seed for regeneration of the forest, but they're the nucleus of the forest. They connect with so many of the other trees surrounding them through these below-ground fungal networks,

where these fungi, these mycelium, actually link with their neighbours, and these mother trees send resources to support their neighbours. And especially young seedlings coming up, and especially their own seedlings, their own children, if you will, that we call them kin seedlings, by providing them more water and carbon and nutrients and giving them a head start in life. They're really chatting to each other, aren't they? They are. They're in constant communication with their neighbours. It's like an internet below ground. I love that. How did you become so interested in the workings of the forest?

Well, I grew up in a family of horse loggers in Canada, Western Canada. My great-grandfather was a horse logger back in the late 1800s, and it just carried on through the generations. And of course, I was a little girl in the 1960ss and it wasn't really part of what I possibly could do to follow in his footsteps but eventually I kind of did because I was fascinated by the forest and when I came into forestry what I learned was so much different

than what my grandfather did. He selectively logged and took out only a few trees from the forest. Whereas when I entered, it was industrial forestry practices in Western Canada, where they clear cut all trees, including all of the mother trees, especially the mother trees, because they were the most valuable. And then replanted them to tree farms, which were very simplified, mostly single species forests, where they weeded out all the native plants or

most of them so they could promote the growth of these sort of master trees that would then, they could cut in a few more decades to make money from them. And so I just thought this was, or I saw that this was harmful to the ecosystems. And I started to try to figure out why they were harming the trees and why it was actually causing trees to die to manage a forest like that. And it's not just trees that you've been looking at throughout your career, is it? It's also about what's buried in the soil, is that right? Yeah. So, you know, all trees all over the world, including here in the UK, depend on fungi, which grow in the the soil and there's all kinds of fungi but one special group is called a mycorrhiza and mycorrhiza literally means fungus root and

they're a symbiotic mutualistic association meaning that these fungi live in the roots of the trees and the trees provide energy through photosynthate because they're photosynthesizing their leaves they provide the fungi with energy that then it then uses to grow it mycelium through the soil and gather up nutrients and water to bring back to the tree and so all of the trees all over the world are dependent on these fungi and the fungi are the great linkers in the forest they're they're what form this internet between trees. Wow. So you've studied this area, haven't you? You went back to college and you really looked into this. Yeah, I actually, I got my PhD studying this and discovered that, yeah, forests are great forests in Western Canada. The great iconic old growth forests are completely underlain by these fungal networks. And they're

actually, you know, absolutely germane to the health and vigor of those forests. Incredible. What was it like working at a logging company? I imagine it's quite a male world. Is that fair to say? Yeah. So I started working at a logging company in 1980 and I was the first girl to work there. And so, yeah, it was all men and they didn't really want girls there. But we were, you know, we were starting to infiltrate into the profession. But it was it was very sexist at the time. But I think, you know, did you experience in terms of that sexism?

You know, I was given the worst truck in the company. I was given some of the hardest jobs, which was, you know, the men were busy clear cutting for us. And my job was to try to regrow the little seedlings back into these big clear cuts. It was not easy because these clear cuts were harsh areas. And then just, you know, not being able to move forward in the industry, because, you know, my male colleagues, the other, the boys in the in the group would get the jobs going forward. And so I had to really be clever about finding my way. And actually, it was a good thing, because I had to, I had, I followed an unusual path in trying to understand, you know, what we were doing wrong because, you know, our forests were really suffering. And I could see that as a

female, I saw the forest in a completely different way than my male colleagues. Clearly, because the research that you've done and the studying that you've done has been groundbreaking. How does your way of working, how does your way of researching differ to what was currently out there? Yeah, so the emphasis was and continues to be on that trees grow as individuals, and that they're competitive, and that they need to grab as many resources for themselves as possible, water, nutrients and light. So shading out their neighbours, you know, trying to grab as many resources for themselves as possible, water, nutrients, and light. So shading out their neighbors, trying to grab as much soil, water, and nutrients, and deprive it of their neighbors so that they can grow dominant, so they can be dominant in

the forest. And I saw that as very simple-minded kind of way of the forest working, where I grew up thinking of the forest as a place of collaboration, where the plants and the trees and the animals are intertwined in this incredibly complex, interactive ecosystem, and that we were ripping this connected place apart to create these farms, these tree farms of simplified, competitive trees. And not only that, that this way of managing the forest was changing these brilliant old growth forests, these iconic, beautiful, lush forests that are very diverse into these little kind of cornfields of trees. And seeing that they were getting infected with pathogens and insects. And today, we see that they're very

vulnerable to climate-induced, climate change-induced droughts and insect infestations. And so it's really created a very vulnerable situation for us by not seeing the forest more fully as an interconnected place. So despite the groundbreaking nature of your research, it hasn't been a straightforward process in getting your research recognised, has it? No, it hasn't. And actually, since my book was published, Finding the Mother Tree, it's gotten a lot better. People are recognising in the public that, yeah, that makes sense. And what we're doing in forestry really doesn't make sense. But there have been decades and decades of forest practices that have simplified our forests and expanded clear-cutting through, for example, the Pacific rainforests of

the West, Western North America, through the Amazon, through the Congo, through these incredible forests that are the lungs of the earth. And we're, you know, we're really degrading those forests rapidly by these very narrow, kind of narrow, narrowly shaped forestry practices. And trees have helped you in your personal life as well. Would you mind sharing your personal experience with chemotherapy and how trees have helped? Yeah, yeah. So when I was in my early 50s, I got breast cancer. And I was quite ill. And I, you know, I had to go through many, many treatments because the cancer had spread to my lymphatic system. And one of the chemotherapy drugs was Taxol or Paclitaxol is what it's also known as. And it's produced by the yew tree. And I know you have yew trees in the UK. We also have them in Canada. And yew produces this compound taxol as a defense enzyme. And it helps those trees that grow to great ages, thousands of years, to defend themselves against enemies like insects and pathogens that might infect them. Well, it turns out that that very same chemical is also helpful for our health.

It can fend off cancer cells. And so I wanted to, and, you know, when they discovered this, and actually this was Indigenous knowledge thousands of years old. The Indigenous people of North America had known about it and used it as a medicine for a long, long time. And then, you know, then settler, Western scientists rediscovered it. And it was funny, because when they did that in the 1980s, I was working in forestry at the time. And I remember overnight, the yew trees were being stripped of their bark, because that's where,

you know, the cambium was, where these chemicals were being produced. And so I thought, and then they changed, they were able to start producing the chemical in the lab. And so since then, they've used really a single source of tissues to create Taxol in the lab and mass produce it. And so the U-tree's have been safe. But what I'm interested in is, is that Taxol the best, did we get the best cells to work with? And I think that the neighborhood, the community, the society of those yew trees is important in their health and their ability to produce these chemicals.

And we might be able to get better chemotherapy chemicals, better paclitaxel, if we pay attention to how well those trees are growing and how diverse their neighborhoods are. So that's what I'm studying with my graduate students right now. Very, very fascinating. Susan Simar, thank you very much. Not only are trees secretly talking to each other, they're also helping to heal us as well. Suzanne's book is Finding the Mother Tree, Uncovering the Wisdom and Intelligence of the Forest. Now tomorrow we're going to look at the question of how safe you feel and safety on our streets as well. Over the last couple of years there have been a number of very high profile cases of women being murdered that have hit the headlines and highlighted the issue of

women and girls safety in society. Sisters Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry in June 2020, primary school teacher Sabina Netta last September, and a year ago this week, Sarah Everard killed by Wayne Cousins, a Metropolitan police officer. On Tuesday, the Home Secretary, Preeti Patel, launched a new national communications campaign called Enough, challenging perpetrators and raising awareness of what we can all do to safely call out abuse. She also announced that tackling violence against women and girls will be a national priority for police forces alongside terrorism, serious and organised crime and child sexual abuse. We want to hear from you though. How do you think about,

how do you feel about your personal security what would you uh what would make you feel safer on the streets what changes have you seen in your area that make you feel a little bit more secure how would you like to see things done differently in the future as always you can text us on woman's hour the number as always is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website as well. Now, a person guilty of manslaughter or murder is already prevented from inheriting their victim's estate

by what's known as the forfeiture rule. But should that law be extended to someone guilty of domestic abuse? Should they be allowed to inherit the estate of a spouse who has taken their own life linked to their violence? MP Florence Eshalomi, Labour and Co-op MP for Vauxhall, is attempting to change the law after one of her constituents wrote to her. Tom Guha has had to deal with this exact situation since his mother passed away

and his stepfather's behaviour was found to have a direct link to her death. His mother, Roma, took her own life in June 2020 because of what the coroner concluded was anxiety precipitated by a domestic violence incident. Both Tom and Florence join us now on the programme. Good morning. Tom, I'd like to start with you, if you could just give us an overview of what happened. Sure. So, I mean, as you've said already, I lost my mum in June 2020 to suicide. It was only the year before, a few months before, that the incident of violence took place. It was the first incident of domestic violence, at least to my knowledge, I'm pretty sure it was. And I remember being told

when my mum called me and she said that this attack had happened. And I was just in disbelief and I turned to my partner at the time and I said to her, but I really wonder how much this is going to change my life because I thought on the one hand maybe she'll be okay but on the other hand I was very aware that my mum had had a history of depression, she had two bouts of depression in the past and I was really worried that she would relapse and sadly I was right so four months after the attack she made an attempt on her own life. And six months after that, she did actually take her own life. So it was quite a quick, you know, her mental health did take a very serious hit.

Despite the attack taking place and my stepdad found guilty of domestic violence in a trial that happened after my mum's death. Despite that attack taking place, since then, he's inherited her entire estate, so her house, her pension, and any savings she had, even though she tried to change her will after the attack took place to ensure she left everything to my brother and me. So despite all of that that he's inherited everything um i first contacted florence after he inherited the house so he moved into the house prevented me from even visiting it this is a house that i'd grown up in since i was eight years old um and he wasn't allowed to visit for the last year of my mum's life and that she had owned outright before meeting him. He moved in and sold it and there was nothing I could do and I just felt so desperate and so powerless

and that was when I contacted Florence and I said surely you know this is wrong, surely we can do something about this and so she first intervened on quite a practical matter actually. She wrote to the pensions board, my mum was a GP. Her pension was governed by a public authority. And so she asked if the pensions authority could intervene and ensure that he doesn't inherit that as well as the house. Sadly, there was nothing. There was no discretion. So if you're the spouse,

you're sort of automatically entitled to inherit. You're automatically entitled to inherit. you're automatically entitled to inherit um if if there's no in the case of the pension if there's no other nomination so my mum hadn't nominated anyone to inherit a pension so automatically fell to him um florence wrote to the pensions board and asked if there was anything they could do they said no that that's the policy uh but that was kind of when we launched this campaign to try to change the law to ensure that anyone found guilty of domestic violence is unable to inherit

the estate of the person that they've assaulted. Florence, what was your reaction when you first learned about Tom's situation? Morning, Jessica. To be honest with you, when I first met Tom and he went through, you know, the tragic incident that happened to his mum, there was a bit of me that thought this cannot be right. And I assumed that there was already, you know, something in law protecting victims like this. wasn't. I just thought about the issue of the discussions that have been going on in

Parliament with the police, with councils, with women's advocacy groups around talking about the issue of abuse and domestic violence. And this just shows that if we are really serious to take the whole issue of domestic violence and violence against women and girls seriously, we have to make sure that includes a massive loophole in our current legislation where victims where there's a direct link in in abuse are still suffering and when I met Tom I knew that I had to try and find a way to raise it with directly with the Prime Minister when I wrote to the justice secretary the reply i got back was frankly frankly painful and in a way insulting to so many domestic abuse victims and there was a quote in there specifically and tom's highlighted the mental abuse that his mum suffered and and

and the quote in that letter said a person is free to take the steps once free from the abusive relationship to ensure that the abusive partner doesn't benefit in any way while seeking a divorce or making a will and that advice woefully fails to understand the mental trauma that domestic abuse can have on victims so I raised it with the Prime Minister in November which led to our meeting with him in earlier this year in January and since then we've had further meetings with the Prime Minister in November, which led to our meeting with him earlier this year in January. And since then, we've had further meetings with the Minister for Safeguarding and the Secretary of State for Justice. And again, when I first met Tom and raised this and tried to get some coverage on it, there's been local and national media coverage.

I've been contacted by other people from right across the country. So this is an issue which sadly isn't in isolation to Tom's and his most tragic case. There are other people up and down the country who've suffered through this really small but really vital loophole in the current legislation. So I can understand that there's going to have been families that have contacted you in the wake of hearing about Tom's case. We'll come to that in a moment. I just want to understand how you're trying to change the current law. I believe there were concerns raised about unintended consequences and spurious claims, for example, as to why the law possibly couldn't be changed now and I get you know trying to change I'm relatively new MP trying to change

you know a long-standing piece of legislation is by no easy feat but for me I think where we where the government have said that they are looking into this actively is that everyone agrees that this crime and you know people who have a direct link to a person's death should not benefit. Everyone agrees on that. The difficulty that the government have expressed is that they're worried that this could then open the door for spurious claims. People who may, you know, in a sense, try and abuse this change in legislation. But I think there's a clear case for reform on this, a clear case in terms of domestic abuse and inheritance. And I need the government to help me, to help Tom,

to help many others in bringing forward an attempt to change this. And what I want to do, if we don't have that change, is I'll try and bring forward a private member's bill. And as you may know, and as your listeners may know, changing the laws in opposition MP isn't easy. But what I want to do is keep pushing on this, using my limited power to address this blatant injustice. And what I want to do is build momentum

and ultimately get the government to listen. You've mentioned that other families have contacted to you, Florence, and there may be listeners out there thinking, you know, that they are affected in a similar way. What should they do? What can they do? In the first instance, I'd urge anyone to contact their constituency MP. My details are public as well. I'm happy if people contact me, I'll link them in touch.

What I'm trying to do again is build that picture to the government to say, the government have to look at working with victims. Victims who've told me that even in death, they feel that they're loved ones. And it's mainly women are still suffering. Victims who are having to live with that anguish and that mental health. Victims like Tom who have being denied what's rightly theirs. But for many of those victims, it's not about the inheritance. It's about the additional pain and anguish that they are going through, having lost their loved one in such difficult circumstances.

And it's so it's not good that the current situation can't be changed. You know, we have to look at this. If we are talking about ending the scourge of violence against women and girls, we have to make sure that loopholes like this do not exist anymore. Tom, what's the next steps for you? We'll see. I mean, we met with the Prime Minister back in January to discuss this proposal. And I'd say there was broad support for the principal. And since then then we met with ministers of the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice and like Florence says they were kind of challenging because changing the law is never easy and they need to think through the unintended

consequences but I'd say they were challenging in a constructive way. They could see what we were trying to achieve and wanted to make sure we did it in the most effective way. So I think those conversations will continue and if we don't get anywhere with the government like Florence said, she'll raise a private member's bill and we'll hopefully change the law that way. But as I'm sure you will agree it's a fairly common sense change to the law. I mean domestic violence has been so sort of in the public consciousness has been reported on more than ever recently. And this is one way in which victims of domestic violence are not being defended, not being stood up for through the law. So, you know, if the government is serious about cracking down on domestic violence and ensuring that people who commit that crime, you know, can't benefit from it, then this is a common sense law to change. Tom, thank you very much for sharing your story.

Best of luck to you. Thank you also to Florence Eshalomi, Labour MP, for her insights as well. We did contact the stepfather's lawyer for a response, but haven't received anything as of yet. Now, last month, a new high-end sushi restaurant in Surrey was criticised for publishing a dress code that asked women to wear sexy black ankle strap heels with a form-fitting top or bodycon dresses.

The restaurant has since apologised for what others have called sexist uniform requests. In an Instagram post, the owners of the restaurant Beluga said that the description was inappropriate, disrespectful and offensive and does not reflect the image we're trying to promote. They then clarified that their policy is a smart dress code for men and women. So how have attitudes towards women and dress codes changed over the years and when do they become sexist? Anna Sebastian is a hospitality consultant who has experience with hotels, bars and restaurants.

Claire Curzon is the managing director of Brighter Directions, which is a marketing and communications agency. Both join me now. Good morning to you. Claire, what was your initial reaction when you first came across this story? Morning. So I was a little bit on the fence really with it, to be honest. I think for me, there's a couple of things in play. The first one is that, you know, dress codes haven't been per se, haven't been anything new. They're quite traditional uniforms inviting people in. Nightclubs have done them since I was a child. Retail does it, you know, sports do it. And they do use provocative clothing for marketing. So in that respect, I was, you know, businesses should have the choice to set dress codes. I think where it becomes an

issue is where it becomes derogatory which is kind of where this story is picked up from and I think there's an issue of culture as well in it I mean I've tried to look and I'm not actually sure um what ethnicity the owners are but I know that it's a sushi bar and I know from an Asian perspective um there is a bit of a culture misunderstanding there as well uh or they could be um but obviously you know it's not acceptable for any kind of sexism and I think there's a fine line when it comes to dress codes which I think is a tricky conversation to have yeah of, of course. We don't know, obviously, whether any of the original dress code remarks by this restaurant were down to culture or ethnicity. But Anna, any surprise from you

when you first read this story? Yes, well, good morning. And thank you so much for having me on the show. I was really surprised to read something like this. It was, for me, it was incredibly archaic to see the dress code for women saying sexy black shoes or bodycon dresses. And I think, you know, dress codes, you know, I do agree with dress codes to a degree and dress codes are perfectly legal. But when they become illegal is when you, you know, when you factor in, is it derogatory or is it discriminative towards gender ethnicity disability and for me this was very big you know it wasn't the same dress code

wasn't the same for men and women and this has been like an ongoing uh conversation that i've had throughout my whole career from working in nightclubs to independent restaurants to luxury sort of five-star hotels. And you can see how it has evolved. But I think saying that women have to wear, you know, high heels or tight dresses is just absolutely ridiculous. And for me, you know, I question, you know, who wrote this? Because in my opinion, I don't see any woman writing something like this and putting this out into the public eye. I just think it's absolutely ridiculous. Yeah. I wonder if we are seeing a change from years gone by.

We've had some responses from our listeners come in. And Jackie has tweeted to say, back in the 80s, I went for an interview to be a health visitor. I was wearing smart trousers, but was told they didn't allow their health visitors to wear trousers. I was asked what I thought of that rule and I was able to say it was ridiculous and sexist, but they still took me on, which is a positive.

But some of the listeners haven't always had that positive response. One listener has texted in to say, when I was 21, I worked for a nightclub and over the weekend nights, we were required to wear a cheap synthetic corset and shorts or knickers. I hated it and always made comments to managers who would suggest finding a different job. It was generally a horrible, misogynistic environment. I wish I could go back and tell younger me not to put up with it and to know

my worth. Anna, this is a hard situation when a young woman in particular is put in this position about how empowered they might feel in that environment to speak out when perhaps their job depends on it. Yeah, of course. And I think what you need to remember is when you talk about dress codes for staff, dress codes must not lead to harassment by guests. So asking a woman to dress provocatively is completely unlawful. And, you know, if you talk about in the workplace, you know, I think dress codes are great. I think it creates a sense of sort of community and, you know, consistency with the staff. But you cannot ask something of a woman that you're not going to ask for a man. So, for example, something that, you know, I've seen more and more coming in,

which I think is a really positive change, is, for example, a company saying, you know, a two-piece suit for men and women with low-heeled shoes for both sexes. Now, that's completely acceptable, but asking a woman, especially, you know, when you're very, very young, to wear high heels to lengthen your legs, which is what I've seen before, is completely ridiculous. Apart from the fact when you're working, say, in hospitality venues, you know, that could lead to people falling over. That could lead to serious, like long term injury as well. And so it doesn't have a place. And I think more and more venues now are having to make this huge shift, a huge change to be in line with the modern day. It's 2022 and asking a woman to wear high heels is just for me, it's just beyond comprehension. But Claire, you know, some women who might be asked to wear heels might like that.

Yes, they might be uncomfortable for some, but there are others who are going to enjoy that. Some women are happy to adhere to certain aesthetic requirements, aren't they? Yeah, I think there's a really interesting point here to do with industry. So my industry, for example, we're a service-led industry in terms of business to business. And I think it's very different for us. So as an owner of an agency and i employ men and women predominantly women um i think our splits around 87 women or something um so i ask my staff when we're at corporate events i ask them to wear dresses and heels um and i have done for 15 years that's something that i do as a business owner um and that's something that all my staff do black dresses and heels the men wear suits and ties and I've never personally I've

never come up against any kind of problem with that all my staff actually see it as a really enjoyable thing that we all dress up together and we all go and we have this corporate identity and that's really positive that's my business I think if I've had someone come to me and say I don't want to wear heels then obviously that wouldn't be a problem but initially that is something that I asked my staff to do um but at the same time I do understand you know I've worked in a very corporate environment before I started my own agency. And I've been asked in marketing and sales roles, customer facing roles, to wear low cut tops, open my top a little bit, to wear short skirts. So I understand there's a boundary that we need to be aware of. But I think also ultimately it's down to choice and I think that that's the important

point here that it becomes derogatory when it's forced you know whether I'm a woman asking other women to wear heels or whether it's a male boss asking women to wear heels um I think there's a very fine line but for me it's the forcedness of it yeah um someone has tweeted in to say yes it's wrong to ask women to wear shoes that hurt our feet, change our posture and are harmful to our pelvis and backs. If men aren't also required to wear high heels, it's sexist. So, Anna, what do women listening to this who are uncomfortable or who are unhappy with their employer's uniform requirements, how can they challenge it? I think having that conversation

is really, really important. You know, from my opinion, you know, any employee should be consulting their staff on what the dress code policy should be. I don't think anybody should be told to wear a dress or high heels at any event, at any workplace at all,

because you're not going to ask, when has a man's dress code ever come up in sort of discussion or conversation it's insane what why is the focus on this and I think if you're going to have a dress code policy it has to apply to both sexes you know a woman should not be forced to wear a skirt they should be given the choice of what they want to wear um is that the answer then gender neutral um is that is that sorry sorry anna is that is that the answer then gender neutral uniforms of course absolutely and i think you should be given the choice on what you want to wear if i want to wear high heels i will if i want to wear flats i will but it's my choice and i don't even think you know i can't believe

that in 2022 we still have to have this discussion that we're still talking about a pair of high heels and women wearing tight dresses it's ridiculous and i'm really looking forward to in 2022 we still have to have this discussion that we're still talking about a pair of high heels and women wearing tight dresses it's ridiculous and I'm really looking forward to getting to the point where we actually don't have to have this conversation anymore because there's so much more important things happening on a day-to-day basis. Claire are things getting better? I don't know from the sounds of this discussion um i i don't know i think we both i think myself and anna's both said the same point that it is down to choice i think the request in itself is reasonable to request it's a request it's an ask it's not a demand and i think that's the important element

of it yeah um just to leave you with one final text we had in i was once asked to dress as morticia adams for a cinema promotion. I agreed until I was handed a sexy witch outfit. So thank you for that input, Anna. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella. And from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger.

The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme Peak Danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.