Woman's Hour - Dr Who actor Jemma Redgrave on the show's new 60th anniversary shows and the history of eyeliner

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

It’s Doctor Who’s 60th year and to celebrate, there will be three anniversary specials coming to your screens starting next week. Jemma Redgrave will be returning as Kate Stewart - Chief Scientific Officer at UNIT - the military organisation set up to investigate alien threats to earth. Jemma speaks to Emma Barnett about what we can expect and what it is like being a part of the show.Professor Dame Lesley Regan talks about the decision to let women access the contraceptive pill from pharmacies in England, from next month, without the need for a GP appointment.There is going to be a new parental leave policy in France. Parents will be entitled to “family leave” worth half their salary for up to a year. We talk a lot on Woman’s Hour about the maternity leave, paternity leave and shared parental leave policies in this country – but what could we learn by looking abroad? Professor Alison Koslowski from University College London and Elena Brown from Rand Europe outline and discuss the different policies.Emmy-nominated film director Nisha Pahuja joins Woman’s Hour to talk about her new documentary, To Kill A Tiger. It focuses on Ranjit, the father of a young girl in a tribal Indian village who has been sexually assaulted, and his battle for justice. Nisha tells Emma why she wanted to make a film about this and the important changes it has made.Eyeliner is one of the most enduring cosmetic tools; it is an aesthetic trademark that was favoured by the ancient Egyptian Queen Nerfertiti, the late singer Amy Winehouse and still up there now, with Z beauty influencers. Writer Zahra Hankir reports its history in her new book Eyeliner.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. I hope you're doing well wherever you're joining us from today. Personally, I had eyeliner streaming down my face earlier, which will teach me after laying it on a bit heavier today, trying to get it perfect, end of a conversation with an author who's charted the history and impact of the lines that some of us try to draw on our eyes each day or each night.

All that to come with the author Zahra Hankir. But in what has been hailed by some as the most revolutionary change in women's health since hormonal contraceptive first became available in the 1960s, the news that millions of women in England will be able to get the contraceptive pill for free from high street pharmacies without seeing a GP is making headlines today. In the same week, a woman is back at the helm of the health decision-making in the government, Victoria Atkins, the new health secretary.

We're going to explore the hype and figure out what has led to this decision and what the reality may mean. The rules differ across the UK, I should say that. But how do you view this announcement? A great step forward for women and bodily autonomy and that it's long overdue? Or do you have questions and concerns? Or both?

It is possible to hold two different views in one's mind at the same time, of course. We shouldn't let that go in this sort of discussion or any other. Do text me, 84844, that's the number you need, on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website or go for a voice note or a WhatsApp message using a different number which I'll give you now 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply so just look out for the terms which I found on our website. Also on today's programme I'll be joined by the actor Gemma Redgrave,

ahead of her appearance in the three Doctor Who specials to mark its 60th birthday. And what can we learn from the French when it comes to women, men and families? All that to come. But news today that from next month, almost half a million women will be able to get the contraceptive pill from pharmacies in England without the need for a GP appointment. Treatments for urinary infections and other common conditions will also be on offer under what's called the Pharmacy First Scheme. The new Health and Social Care Secretary, Victoria Atkins, said the changes meant, quote,

more options for women when making a choice about their preferred contraception and would free up GP appointments. That's something arguably right at the top of her entry as well as strikes and pay in the NHS. How significant is this change? Who better to talk to than Professor Dame Leslie Regan, the Women's Health Ambassador for England amongst many other roles. Good morning. Good morning, Emma.

For clarification, which pill are we talking about here? There are a few available and I believe the mini pill has been available from pharmacies in every part of the UK since 2021. Correct. So the mini pill or the progestogen only pill has been available for a while, but this is going to be, I mean, the combined oral contraceptive pill, which contains an oestrogen and a progestogen is now going to be available. What's your response? I think it's marvellous for women.

Really, really marvellous. And I think that this is a drug that's been researched probably better than most other medicines in our cabinets. And yet it was launched, it was first launched in the 1960s and we've spent so much time researching it that it's been very difficult for women to access. And as you know, Emma, my big thing is we need to empower women to know what they can do to help look after themselves. And I think controlling their ability to decide if and when and with whom and how many times they become pregnant, I think that's really, really crucial. People may understand when you were talking, and I remember we did speak during

the pandemic about your concerns around access to such services when things were not normal, but they may find it hard to understand why it's difficult to access the contraceptive pill in terms of being able to, well, I'm starting to answer the question for some, see your GP, but is that the main reason, GP waiting list? Is that what you're talking about? Or are there other things attached to it that have made it more difficult in your view? Well, I think there are several things here. And thank you for the question, because I think it has been difficult to access GPs. And let's face it, GPs have been bombarded by patients needing help. What I think is so important about this step forward is I think we've now been able to take one big piece of work away

and you know get another group in our healthcare services or our healthcare professionals to help by collaborating to actually implement this to make it easier for women and I just think that has to be a benefit to everybody it's a benefit to the women it's benefit to the pharmacists and it's benefit to the to the GP practices as well. There's many, many unnecessary appointments are going to be avoided now. And they can concentrate on the things that really are important and need a doctor for. And I think that's another important thing. You know, I'm so conscious of the fact so many times when women go to visit health care professionals, they're not ill and they're not sick. They're trying to do maintenance things in order to stay fit and well

and either at school or in education or doing their work or employment or looking after people in the unpaid caring roles in their lives. So I think this is just, it's basically handing back some autonomy to women in order to help them get on with their lives. Will you still need an initial appointment? And as I should say at this point, it does differ around the UK and where different areas are up to. But in England, will you still need an initial appointment

to have the pill prescribed? Because I remember that sort of appointment when I was quite young because I wasn't given it for contraceptive reasons. I was given it for period pain. Others will have been given it for skin conditions and whatever. Will you still need that initial appointment and then you can go and get the repeat from the pharmacy or is this getting rid of that? No, this is meaning that pharmacists will now be able to initiate the contraception for the first time as well as continue to prescribe repeat prescriptions. And take blood pressure and do that sort of thing there or? What they're going

to do is arrange to take your blood pressure if you go into the pharmacy, if you go into Boots or one of your other high street pharmacies later today, and also, well, no, from December 1st, I beg your pardon, and also to check your body mass index, your weight. What do you say to those who are a bit cynical about the excitement from Victoria Atkins, our new health secretary, health and social care secretary, you know, talking about this in the terms that you're talking about, empowerment.

You've talked about this for a long time and you work in the field with women as a doctor. But there's a bit of cynicism that this has happened, not because it's empowering to women and the reasons you've just given, but because of GP waiting times? Well, I'm an optimist, as I think you are. And I think we have to grasp every opportunity to make things better for women. And I think it's marvellous that we have a new health secretary who has championed this, and it's a great start for her as well. The only good can come out of this. There is nothing that's going to happen that's going to be damaging to women, I'm sure of that,

because what we know is that fears in the past have been about, well, what if the woman had an unknown cancer or she had a risk of heart disease or of blood clots? And what I can honestly say to anybody who's feeling cynical about that is that the most dangerous thing for a woman who's got an illness is to get unexpectedly pregnant. But you have been frustrated with the system before. This is why one of the reasons, you have been frustrated with the system before. This is why one of the reasons you talked about going to be the first women's health ambassador for England, for people who don't understand that that is a role with the government,

you're not speaking always for the government, I should also make clear, but you went for it because you have been frustrated that women haven't always been trusted and women haven't always got what they need. And I suppose why this is happening now is one of those questions. It's good that you're optimistic and I understand about seizing an opportunity. But I wanted to just put that to you, which you've responded. But there's a sort of secondary part of that, which is how much do you think the pandemic played a role

in seeing women in a different way when it came to maintaining their health, because there were some changes during that time that you were across. Very much so, Emma. And as you also know, my optimism also leads me to say you should never waste a good crisis because you can often get good things coming out of that too. It was awful what happened. Women became even more disadvantaged at the beginning of the pandemic, but then colleagues and other collaborators within healthcare got together. And for example, many maternity units started offering post-divorce contraception, which was a great step forward. Usually we sent women away to go to their GP or their local family planning clinics. And because of that inability for people to move

around during the lockdown, we were able to send them home if they chose to have it with a year's worth of contraception. And that obviously had really beneficial effects as well. So you think the pandemic will have changed or may have changed certain parts of women's healthcare for the better? I do, because, for example, if you'd come along to my specialist miscarriage clinic or my specialist menstrual period clinic in the past, I couldn't see you virtually. And I would sometimes have referrals from hundreds of miles away, and women would take not just one day off work, but two days off work, and expensive travel arrangements made.

And yet being able to talk to women virtually, at least as an initial consultation, I think is really, really helpful. So I see virtual health hubs that I've been pushing in my role as ambassador as a really good step forward, because I think you wouldn't mind travelling to go and see somebody for a particular problem, Emma, if you knew that you've been triaged before, and that you're being signposted to the right person to sort your problem? There's quite a lot of messages coming in and some along the lines of what you're saying, for instance. There's one here from Nicola in Devon who makes a slightly different point

which says you've been able to walk into a pharmacy or a barbershop for decades to purchase condoms. This is a no-brainer. It will free up our GPs and give women more freedom. Another one here which says it's long overdue that women can access the contraceptive pill from pharmacies. There's no reason for the gatekeeping other than outdated medical misogyny rooted in religious anti-contraception ideology. I hope this is the beginning of change for women's health. We need to look at the medical gatekeeping on abortion pills which currently must be approved by two

doctors. Midwives are more than qualified to administer these pills and it's time we trusted women and gave us full control over our reproductive lives. Contrast the ease with which men can get vasectomies compared to women being able to access equivalent sterilisation procedures, says Gemma. What do you say to Gemma's questions and points in there?

Well, I think it is time that women have more control over their lives and particularly over whether they become pregnant or not. And I think this is a really good step in the right direction. And every time that we free up members of the health care professional teams to do other things, then we're benefiting women. And we you know, you and I can now turn our attention to the next thing that we could sort out. What is the next thing on your agenda, Lesley? Getting health hubs available everywhere, either virtual or hub and spoke models, so that we can do all of those housekeeping things that we need women to be able to access easily so that they can get on with their lives. These are meant to replace sexual health and family planning clinics. Is that right?

If people aren't familiar with the phrase health hub, I mean mean it sort of sounds and then you start talking about spokes you know just thank you thank you so um a hub doesn't necessarily have to be a place it can be virtual okay but basically you're going to somebody who will be able to triage you will be able to identify what you need and direct you to the best place for it so for example we may have a conversation and i prescribe you something and i could to the best place for it. So, for example, we may have a conversation and I prescribe you something and I could email your pharmacy with a prescription. Alternatively, it may become evident during our discussion that you need an investigation, a blood test or some imaging. You need to go to somewhere else, but you don't want to do two lots or three visits.

Similarly, you may come up with a problem that I think, well, I really need to look inside that womb lining. And so you need to go to a hub that can do a procedure for you. And I think. Well, I think that's a good explanation, because just in case people didn't know and some people won't yet, and they may not be feeling like they are supported in that way in any way because they can't even see the GP. It's good to give you the opportunity to say that here on Women's Act. There are a couple of messages that are not OK about the women writing in are not OK about this news today. And I just want to give you the chance to respond.

Linda says, Making the pill available from pharmacists is not about making things better for women. It's about freeing up GP appointments. Hormonal contraceptives, which I was very glad of in the 60s, are powerful drugs which affect the internal workings of the body and can sometimes affect women's health adversely they should be prescribed by doctors yet again women's health is sidelined and i am furious and just on this so i can do it together i can do your hub and spoke model if you like

olivia says i can't get over the feeling that women are taking up too much time with our women's problems so we're being handed over to pharmacists so GPs can focus on more important matters. It really makes me squirm to be told over and over how fantastic this is a good thing and it does benefit them. I go back to my point earlier, Emma, that the vast majority of occasions when women consult healthcare professionals, they're not sick. And I would like to ensure that they can get on and access the things they need to maintain their health and well-being so that we can then focus our resources on improving their lives when they are unwell. Do you think the conversation with a pharmacist, if your pill's not agreeing with you, will suffice, though? I suppose that's kind of at the heart of one of those concerns, that if you're not getting on well with your pill and you have to try several. Well, I think that we would be mistaken if we thought the pharmacists were extremely well trained and they know an enormous amount about medicines. And I think that they will,

I'm sure they will rise to this challenge and I'm sure they will look after women who find that perhaps the first prescription doesn't suit them in just the same way as they would have gone along to see their family doctor in the past. Professor Dame Lesley Regan, thank you very much. Women's Health Ambassador for England and the former president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. More messages coming in here. Good morning. Regarding the pill, it's great that choices for women to access services are broadening. However, contraception

advice and appointments are in the majority of practices delivered by practice nurses. While we embrace these kinds of initiatives to reduce footfall to practices, this will not release any GP appointments or improve waiting times for doctors. As I say, it's welcome, but we should not suggest more GP appointments will be made available because of it, says a Welsh GP practice manager. An interesting point there.

And one actually we've had him from somebody else in the same job. So not trying to suggest that, I just recognise it's a concern and it's something that people are saying, but good to have some of the reality come into that and be injected in that. And more messages to differing views that I've tried to reflect in our conversation there with Professor Dame Leslie Regan. Let me ask you something else altogether. You can keep your messages coming in on that.

Are you ready for the return of this? It's Doctor Who's 60th year and to celebrate there will be three anniversary specials coming to your screens soon Gemma Redgrave will be returning as Kate Stewart, Chief Scientific Officer at UNIT, the military organisation set up to investigate alien threats to Earth. Gemma, of course, will be alongside David Tennant, Catherine Tate. And Gemma joins me now. She's just walked into the studio. Good morning. Hello. Good morning.

I feel a lot safer now you're here with this expertise. That's very foolish, I'm afraid. Well, it's lovely to have you. 60 years, it's a long time. I mean, the fans will, you know, be so ready for this. And you've been part of Doctor Who for a good while now, haven't you? My first episode was in 2012. I was, Stephen Moffat brought me in.

And my first episode, Chris Ch brought me in and my first episode Chris Chibnall wrote my first episode and I was I was with Matt yeah and I've been I've been brought back

ever since and it is the most wonderful and incredibly lucky thing. Yeah, well, I think for Kate, for those who don't know about your role, about Kate, what's her story? I tried to abridge it there, but what's her role? Her, she's, as you said in the introduction,

she's head of unit, which is science. It's science and military. And it was set up to help to investigate the alien incursions, which have been going on since the 1960s. It's been a long time, hasn't it? originally head of unit um and at the at the very beginning of my story um matt smith um i i walk into uh into the house that he's um that he's he visits often and um and because something strange is going on and something has been detected and the relationship is established and at the end of the first episode you understand, we understand that it was her father who originally ran UNIT,

that she's dropped the Lethbridge. He was Brigadier Lethbridge Stuart and she's dropped the Lethbridge because she wants to make her way on her own merit, which is laudable, of course. So she becomes, as opposed to Kate Lethbridge-Stewart, the character, she becomes Kate Stewart. But the Lethbridge still sort of hangs about from time to time. Things linger in Doctor Who, don't they? They do.

But I think it's a role, you know, we talk about what we see on screens and how it affects us. And she's a lead figure in science and technology and all that as a woman. And I suppose that must be quite an appealing part of it as well. Yes, it's a wonderful part. She's powerful and she has humour and she has warmth and she's steely and she's not afraid of her vulnerability which is which makes her so interesting and stronger actually I think what do fans talk to you about this role and how are the Doctor Who crew with you the the the fans you mean yes they they they took her to their hearts, I think, because of their love of the original character, her father, and because their loyalty to the classic series.

And I think she was beautifully created by Chris Chibnall and Stephen Moffat and continues to be. And it's a lovely family to be part of. I bet. And the anniversary is obviously a big moment. Are you able to tell us anything? I can't tell you anything at all because there is spoilers. I got out

during the filming of it people occasionally things slip out and it's such a shame because it's such a, the surprise is so wonderful but I can tell you that the scale of these, I was part

of one episode, the scale of these three episodes. They're epic. Are they? Yeah, they are epic and extraordinary. And Catherine and David, it's wonderful to be on set and watch them work together.

This is Catherine Tate and David? Yes. And the fans, everybody who loves Doctor Who has got an extraordinary treat in store. It's astonishing and I don't think Doctor Who has been done on that scale ever. Although the 50th anniversary, which I was also part of, was pretty epic. But this has gone on to a whole other level.

I felt like the Dalek from the BBC reception was going to come upstairs and tell me off if I asked you to try and tell me something. You know when you work in this sort of world that I do and you do in different parts, but there are the things that sometimes when you walk into quite a serious looking office that do make you smile.

And I have to say looking at a Dalek most mornings when I come in here to think about news and all those sorts of things does make me smile and I have to say looking at a Dalek most mornings when I come in here to think about news and all those sorts of things does make me smile most days I I'm astounded because I the the Dalek was the most frightening thing from my childhood really yes I I I was I started watching Doctor Who I suppose in the early 1970s from under the sofa and behind the sofa and um and I do I I was I was terrified by the daleks i always thought it was it's the slight hysteria in the voice which uh and and i i don't know but it was they were they were horrifying i just think you can't take everything all yourself certainly and you should

never take yourself too seriously when you you look at a dalek and i walk in so no probably not and and i remember showing it to to my son when he came in, you know, he was five and he looked at it and asked if, you know, that the same whisk that we use in the kitchen as its arm, or, you know, like the sort of kitchen appliance element of things will have been, you know, made with people. I don't, I mean, there'll be a whole story in history.

A sort of Blue Peter quality. Exactly. Yes. And I think when you get face to face with that, you can come out from under the sofa. Yes, absolutely. No, quite right. I will be having Jodie Whittaker on next week to talk about a different project.

You're very lucky. Yes, well, I'm lucky to have you. I'm lucky in this role to talk to so many wonderful women. But Jodie is also an amazing talent and the first female doctor. Yes. Of course. And I suppose that must have been, as you've had this experience in the series and as part of it from the 50th anniversary to the 60th,

you know, I wonder, do you think it changed anything? Do you think there's any difference because of it? There was obviously a lot of fuss made at the time. There was. There's always a bit of fuss, isn't there? But I thought I loved the two episodes that i did with jody i didn't think i was going to i thought it was possible that my that unit had been mothballed at that point so just coming back and it was during lockdown that we made those episodes

and there was something particular about about um working with just human beings in a room and not on a screen that was in itself just very wonderful. But I thought she was absolutely marvellous and she was one of the best company leaders I've ever worked with. Yes, and there was a moment that there was a scene with Jodie and Mandeep Gill and Janet Fielding and Sophie Aldred and me, and it was five women leading the scene. And Sasha Duvall was the master at that point. But there was it was the it was overwhelmingly a female set. And and that was fantastic.

I mean, I feel like in your career, you've got a lot of power from the women around you. And not least, you're part of an acting dynasty and the women in your family as well. Yes. So it's a good feeling for you when you're in that space. Yes, it's it's it's. Yes, it's taken a while. I've been around for a very long time since dinosaurs were roaming about. And the change over the last 20 years has been entirely positive. Yes. In that respect, yes.

I did just think as we start to approach... Maybe 10. Yeah, well, I was going to say, as we start to approach Christmas, it must be pretty good in your house, charades and all of those things. Is it competitive? No. Are your children in the acting world or will they? No, neither of them.

No, they're neither of them actors. My youngest is doing a master's at the moment and my eldest works for a company that put food recipes online. I just was interested if you ever, when you are part of something where it's kind of been passed on and around, if you have that moment and conversation where they say, you know, Mama, I was thinking about this and I'm not doing I'm not doing it and you go oh okay but it sounds like you're fine with that I I was I I would have been fine either way but I my eldest did think for a while he might um and I think most actors would just feel feel you you don't want your children to go through heartbreak and you know how heartbreaking it can be this profession that i'm in um and and i you sort of you you would you want to protect them of course from everything and um so i so i so i i i worried but i i either way, I think that there's so little job security now. Anyway, I think we're all in the same boat in a way.

Although I do think, you know, being close as I am to two actors in my life, it is an exercise in repeat rejection. Yes, that's what I've heard. The resilience is extraordinary. I know you don't have to do it and people will say that, but it really does take a lot to keep going. It does sometimes it really and i've watched it up close so and as a big fan of the arts and what you do i i'm happy that you keep going and it's great to have regular work look at you in doctor who oh my god it is spanning the 50th and 60th anniversary i feel so lucky to have been brought back regularly all this time. And you can never take anything for granted. But it's a wonderful role. And I've worked with some amazing people. And I've loved every minute of it. Well, it's been lovely to talk to you this morning. Gemma Redgrave there, the first of the three special episodes to celebrate the 60th anniversary of Doctor Who will begin on Saturday,

the 25th of November. And as you leave, perhaps have a cuddle with the Dalek. You're joking. Just put your arm on. It'll be fine. Thank you so much. Good to talk to you. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now there is, I did mention this at the start of the programme, a slight irony about our next

conversation. I am prone to wearing eyeliner most days. I try bleary-eyed early in the morning to put a thick line on with a flick, as well as I always put a strong lip on as well. It's part of the armour, as well as my large glasses too. And if the eyeliner is on, I feel more done. I'm fine without it as well, just for those who are saying you don't need makeup. I do respect that, but it is part part of my ritual and ritual is a bit of a theme in the next conversation because Zara Hanker is here and that is the reason

I tried a bit harder this morning I did actually get it wrong I always think with eyeliner if you play it cooler it goes well the minute you start caring about it and then you keep adding to it your entire eye

in my experience goes black and then I had that additional fun of early morning I don't know what's going on maybe I'm using some sort of cream I'm allergic to. My eyes started streaming. So Zara Hanker is going to help us out here. She's written a book. She's joining us down the line from New York where it is pretty early. And the book is called Eyeliner, A Cultural History. Zara, good morning. Morning, Emma. I wanted to say I appreciated the effort that you put in this

morning. Well, I appreciate you're awake because it's pretty early there. Thank you. I do have my eyeliner on. I put it on at 4am. You do. I'm ready to go. From what I can see here on our video call, it looks perfect. Thank you so much. I would expect nothing less. But it is a bit like that, isn't it? Before we get to the substance of the book, I do feel the minute I try, it does always go a bit worse. And then you keep adding and it gets even worse.

I completely agree. I tend to say that I try to thicken the line into submission to the point that sometimes half of my lid will be covered with the liquid. And the flick is such a lovely thing when it has, you know, I've been in the fortunate position of having professional makeup artists for television. When they do it, it's never how you do it, but you try. We do the best that we can. We do. What is it for you that eyeliner gives to you? Why did you want to turn your attention to it?

Sure. Well, what I argue in the book and what's actually very personal to me in my own eyeliner journey is that eyeliner signifies far more than beauty and aesthetics. To me, it's sort of a connection to my cultural heritage. I'm Lebanese, I'm Arab, I have some Egyptian heritage as well. And I grew up in the UK and I used to observe my mother applying her eyeliner in sort of a ritualistic way that almost made me feel like I could see my ancestry in her face when

I was observing her going through this ritual. And it was also a form of sort of self-care and self-preservation. You know, she had six children. She was sort of raising us all. My father was quite busy with work and she was away from her home country at the time. There was a civil war in Lebanon and I used to feel like there was so much chaos around her but when she would put her eyeliner on it was as if everything came to a standstill and of course as a young girl I used to think oh she's so beautiful but I also understood that this connected her and by extension me to something far bigger than us and that was our culture. Yeah that was a lovely way of putting it and I think that word ritual about some time standing still just for a few moments and the idea of what it gets you prepared for and how it made your mum maybe feel about the day ahead was sort of what I was trying to tap into. There's a message that we've received straight away. I always like to try and bring our listeners into this if I can. And Jackie's written in to say permanent eyeliner is the way to go lasts a couple of years 24-hour definition

no dragging of that delicate eye area when removing makeup I know you've got a view on this haven't you about permanence um she's she's a brave uh woman for for saying that I I personally find that I like to have the ability to kind of change the way that the lines look and change the aesthetic and also to be able to completely remove the lines. I do think that there's an element of practicality to having tattooed eyeliner, but I've not been brave enough to kind of do that myself. Maybe that's something I should explore. But for me on a daily basis, sometimes I'll have very thin lines and then sometimes I'll have like the Amy Winehouse wing and I like the ability to kind of experiment with that look.

You've looked through history. Let's talk about Nefertiti and eyeliner. What do you want to say and what have you said about her? Yeah, so I actually argue in my book that Nefertiti is the original beauty influencer. And our understanding of Nefertiti's beauty is derived from her bust, which was discovered and displayed in Germany,

what was discovered in Egypt and then displayed in Germany. I would hope that eventually she'll go back home to Egypt. She's still in Germany. And when her bust was displayed, so many people clamored to emulate her look because she appeared to be, quote unquote, very exotic. She had an almost perfectly symmetrical face. She had the high cheekbones. There was just something so transfixing about her beauty. And I think part of the infatuation with her at the time was this idea that she was alluring and exotic. And that was an extension of what you would call Orientalism and also Egyptomania, the fascination with ancient Egypt in the 1920s. And personally, I mean, I've been infatuated with Nefertiti myself, for different reasons, I would say,

in the sense that I felt that once I encountered her, because my father has Egyptian heritage, and he used to have lots of sort of magazines about Egypt and things about Egypt at home, I felt that I was connected to her in some way. And she was a non-Western woman and she was quite beguiling. And there was this idea of, you know, how do you emulate the look of Nefertiti? And how, in my case, how do you connect with her? And one of the tools to do that is eyeliner, right? So for me, it's deeply deeply personal it wasn't about sort of emulating her exotic look it was about connecting myself to some part of my heritage especially having grown up in the UK as well so I find that as I said she's that she's an original beauty influencer and that eyeliner has

been one of the tools that many people have used to connect to her in many different ways. And also you've looked how it's been used, eyeliner, around the world and in different cultures. For instance, in Chad. What can you tell us about that? What you found out? Yeah, I traveled to several countries, Chad being one of them. And that was probably the most fascinating trip that I went on. I went to observe the Wadabi community, which is a subgroup of the Fulani ethnic group, which is a nomadic group. And every year they host a beauty contest in which the women judge the men, which was quite refreshing. And one element of beautification for them is kohl, or kohl, which is a naturally produced form of eyeliner and for them what's quite

interesting is that beauty standards in general are quite different than what we are used to in the west or so-called eurocentric beauty standards so for them part of what they believe is beautiful is contrast so darkness against light so they would for example whiten their teeth and then darken their lips. And then they would also outline their eyes with a very, very dark pigment to play with that contrast. So that sort of speaks to how important coal is in their cultural tradition. It's so important to them that they wear it in elaborate pots as necklaces, as talismans. And they also use coal to protect their eyes against the glare of the sun. And that's something that we see in other cultures in the global south as

well, whereby eyeliner is about so much more than beauty. And what I want to say about this particular community is that beauty is actually part of their moral code. So it's not just about aesthetics, it takes on sort of this other layer of importance within this culture. And that was really fascinating to observe. What does that mean, moral code? They have a sort of a set of moral codes, different aspects of life and living that they consider to be quite central to how they should be conducting their daily life. Okay, and it fits in to that which is again a different way of thinking which which your arguments and the examples do because you know for instance we get

when you talk about this stuff you can go as you have with the cultural side and the history and the impact or you can do it purely on a aesthetic level and there is a message which goes to that point just here saying I'm an eyeliner queen Emma but to my horror in my early 50s I'm getting creases that make eyeliner much harder to put on can you actually moisturize your lids with a lot of question marks here and some concern and I think that speaks to there's a practical point there you can respond but there's also that as you get older you might not be able to have it the way you used to and then you have to come up with a different way absolutely I think you, the issue with eyeliner is that it's all about experimentation

and it depends on so many different factors. So it depends on the message that you want to convey to the world. And it also depends on the shape of your eye and of course the skin and the surrounding skin. I find that the more that you experiment, the, you know, also with different age groups, it can vary.

I used to apply eyeliner slightly differently when I was a few years younger and I've used different products and I find that the products actually are key to this you need to find the right product and you need to ensure the thickness of the line works for your eye as well. Are you a liquid person are you a pen are you a paintbrush? So I call my eyeliner aesthetic ancestral chic which is that what I try to do is I I merge the ancient with the modern so um if you can see I have liquid eyeliner and a wing on my upper lid yeah that wing is looking good yeah thank you so much on my waterline I use kohl so kohl is sort of the naturally produced eyeliner that I get from the Middle East and then the liquid eyeliner I personally use

NYX which I think has a great line of eyeliners and it's kind of I say it's like a mix of Amy Winehouse and Nefertiti somewhere in between. Amy Winehouse meets Nefertiti other eyeliner brands available I'll say here on the BBC but just just on Amy Winehouse there's a there's an interesting line around you know when it's not there as well um and the absence of eyeliner in amy white winehouse is i believe her last gig you pick up on yes absolutely that was her performance in in belgrade in serbia um and uh she at that point you know she was of course struggling as we know very much in the public eye. And she was under a lot of scrutiny for her aesthetic and in really unfair ways. I don't think she was celebrated widely in the press until after she passed away, unfortunately, as we know.

And I think her use of eyeliner was deeply, deeply personal. She initially, when she started singing, her eyeliner aesthetic was very very subtle, very modest, very low-key and then as she became more famous her wings started to grow bigger and bigger until they kind of touched her temples and also her beehive, her signature beehive grew bigger and bigger as well and that I think was her kind of coming into her own. She had a very interesting approach to aesthetics, where she was influenced by different genres and different, let's say, groups, periods of time or eras. And she kind of melded all of those influences to create her own very, very distinct look.

And I still think even to this day, nobody has been able to create as distinct an eyeliner look as her that has kind of, it's kind of etched into our cultural memory in a way that no other eyeliner look or contemporary eyeliner look has been. So I think towards sort of the end of her life, when things became particularly different with her, although she did have this period of recovery, her eyeliner sort of reflected almost some of what she was going through and struggling with, even though most of the time she retained her eyeliner. You know, at times when she wore her hair natural, she was still wearing her eyeliner. But really, that performance in Serbia signified so much of what she was going through. And at the same time, also the scrutiny that she faced, you know, in newspapers and magazines, people would often say that her eyeliner was smudged and smeared. And then that would be a clue to perhaps,

or they would certainly infer something from that. Fascinating. So many fascinating stories. We could keep going, but I'll draw a line there. Sorry, I just, I don't know, I had to do that. The book is called Eyeliner, A Cultural History. Zahra Hankir, thank you very much for talking to us and bringing your findings. Thank you.

Thanks, Emma, I appreciate the pun. Really, really tried there, yeah. Better than my eyeliner. So there's a message here just to say I'm 83. I've been using eyeliner since I was in my 20s. I have heavy lids, so without eyeliner, I look tired. I will use eyeliner until I die. I love it.

So true what Emma says about putting it on. Don't fiddle with it. You have to start again. I couldn't start again this morning. I had to be in. Had to get here. Had to see the Dalek. Had to get into the BBC.

Lovely conversation. Thank you. Keep your messages coming in. Let me tell you now about a powerful new film, though, from the director, Nisha Pahudja. To Kill a Tiger tells the story of Ranjeet, a farmer from a small village in India, as he attempts to get justice served against the three men who sexually assaulted his 13-year-old daughter. From the start, I have to say it is a

horrific story and a desperately sad situation. But despite the outrage and anger you may feel watching the documentary, there is a strong feeling of hope too. The film received three awards at the Canadian Screen Awards earlier this year. And yesterday I spoke to Nisha and I asked her why she wanted to make the film as it wasn't originally what she set out to do. It was completely accidental, actually. I had started making a film about masculinity in India. I was following the work of the organization that's featured in the film, the Shrijan Foundation. And they were running a program around 30 villages in the state of Jharkhand, working with men and boys. It was a gender sensitization program, essentially.

And Ranjit, the father in the film, was actually in that program. He was enrolled in that program, as were the men who sexually assaulted her. And the story you tell in the film, how would you explain it to our listeners? I would say that it is a David and Goliath story about a father who is motivated purely by love for his daughter and seeks justice. Yeah. And I have to say, you know, for us in the West, some of the views displayed by the men and the women in this film regarding sexual assault are shocking. You know, they I'm not saying nobody in the West has views like that, but you kind of hear it sometimes a bit differently. And I know you grew up in India. You've made films about gender justice. Were you surprised? Not anymore. You know, I'm not really shocked by those by those by those attitudes and the things that people say.

And I think partly it's because, A, you know, I grew up in that culture. It's it's where I come from, you know, it's my background. And also because I have spent an inordinate amount of time in India. I've spent a lot of time on the ground in India. And so those perspectives don't shock me anymore, nor do they anger me anymore. You know, for me, it's what's become very critical is about understanding why they exist, getting to the heart of why they exist, and then figuring out what we can do to change them. The father, Ranjit, you start with him and you're really looking at Indian masculinity

and how that all comes together. How rare would you say his outlook is? He wants to defend and fight for his daughter. Yeah, he's exceptional. There's no doubt. I mean, it's, you know, no question that he was an extraordinary, an extraordinary man. And for me, I would say that he was an extraordinary man. Not just in the Indian context, I would say that he's an extraordinary man, period, you know, because he really is, he really is an ally. And he really is a feminist, you know, because he really is an ally and he really is a feminist, you know. And I think what also made him for me so extraordinary was not so much, I mean, obviously, because he stands up for his daughter, but it was rooted in a philosophy around the importance of human rights, you know, that he understood that everyone is equal, regardless of gender, class,

caste. That's where it comes from him. Which is where you, I presume, would like everybody to get to. And I was speaking earlier this week to Karuna Nandy, a lawyer who was involved in drafting the rape laws in India in 2013. She talked about there still being work to be done. In your experience with your filming of this, how much of a deterrent is the law at the moment? Sort of anecdotally, I can speak anecdotally. And obviously, there's no doubt that it's having an impact. And, you know, especially after the Delhi gang rape and the eruption on the streets, the protests, it definitely has shifted culture. But the battle isn't over, you know.

And I would say that there is, as Karuna says, you know, a tremendous amount of work still to be done. I think the law, I mean, obviously it's critical, but it has to go hand in hand with changing culture, you know, that they have to work together. The rape survivor in your film is given a different name to protect her identity. She's called Kieran, and she decided she wanted to be seen, didn't she? Yeah, yeah, she did. And that was really extraordinary, you know, because we showed her family the fine cut of the film. And it was after watching the film that she decided that she wanted to be seen. And I asked her why she made that decision, why she chose that.

And she said for her, it was about celebrating that 13-year-old child that she was. You know, she's now, you know, almost 20, right? And she said that she couldn't quite believe her own courage at that age. You know, she's extraordinary, right? She really is. She really is. Yeah, yeah, she really is. So that was the reason for her to come forward.

I'll come back to that story in a minute, but I know you're still in touch with her. How is she now? What is she up to now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, we just spoke a few days ago. She is doing well, you know. She's a young woman looking for her place in the world and trying to find her future. And she's trying to find her way. So that's where she's at. But she's in a much better place.

Yeah, that is good. I always like hearing how things are, you know, beyond the story that you might get to see. The film really doesn't shy away from showing its workings. Again, a feature of it I really appreciate. And at one point we see the conversation about whether or not you're going to continue filming. How concerned are you as a filmmaker about the danger to the family?

Yeah. Actually, so a few months ago I went back to India to do sort of stress test screenings and, you know, showing the film to the people in the film, ensuring that things were OK. We have constant check-ins with the family to make sure things are okay. And interestingly enough, the ward member, he's Ranjit's friend, he's one of the people that's kind of leading the charge in terms of trying to convince the family to marry her to one of the rapists. I showed the film to the ward member and his reaction was unbelievable. And what he said after watching himself was, I'm ashamed.

I'm ashamed of my reaction. I'm ashamed that I didn't support them. And he said that he felt that the entire community needed to see the film in order to see what they put the family through, which I thought was really amazing, you know. And the fathers are speaking again. So Ranjith is speaking to the fathers of the perpetrators.

Which is also incredible. It's incredible. It is incredible. You know, it was also six years ago, right? It was six years ago. And my feeling is just because India is a culture that is based so much on community and kinship. And that ecosystem is an ecosystem that is rooted in survival. You know, things, they had to heal, right?

They had to sort of, they had to come together again, you know. Was it difficult for you to film this? How did you deal with that on a personal level? Because, you know, there's a lot of upsetting material. Yeah. Yes. Yes, it was. It was, it was extremely difficult, you know, and I still, I still think about it. And there's still moments in the film that are so deeply moving for me, you know. So yes, I mean, there were definitely times where some of the scenes that I was filming, and they were all around the survivor, but those scenes, there were times where I did, where I couldn't keep going, you know, where I had to kind of step away. So yes, it was, in many ways, it's been the most difficult film that I've made. And do you think the audience can handle it? I mean, you know, you have to make that judgment as well, when you're making something to have the impact, but to be truthful, but to also make sure people watch it. to do with how utterly unmasked and real the family is, how deeply they let you into the experience and to what it is that they're going through. You know, it doesn't feel like you're

watching a film. It feels like you're going on a journey with the family. There is a hopeful ending of sorts at the end of this film, which I think is good to tell people. Was that something that mattered for you as well when putting this together? I think for me, what was key was just the experience of the family. And, you know, the fact that this father was standing up for his daughter was extraordinary. That is what is so inspiring about this film, is the love and the unity that this family has. Nisha Pahudja there talking about her film To Kill a Tiger, which is in cinemas from today.

Thank you to her. Now, there is a new parental leave policy in France. The French government has said it wants to give parents family leave worth around half their salary for up to a year. We thought this a good opportunity to talk about what we could learn by looking abroad, because from France to Finland to Switzerland to Slovenia, the support for new parents looks pretty different. Professor Alison Kozlowski from University College London edits the annual review for the International Network on Leave Policies, joins me now in the

studio. Good morning. Good morning. And I'm also joined by Eleanor Rosa Spechani from RAND Europe, an independent non-profit research institute. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us. Alison, I'll come to you first of all, but maternity, paternity, parental leave and how does family leave fit in? So each of these is a slightly different technical term which varies across countries. You can call them parenting leaves if you like. So paternity leave is often the short bit of leave you have for fathers maybe a couple of weeks after birth, maternity similarly. But what's

special about parental leave is that it's equally available to both parents. And you will receive pay accordingly or how does that work? So if you're in the EU, now there's a work-life balance directive, you get four months paid parental leave, and what's special is two months must be earmarked for the father, and yes, it's paid. So if you are a part of the EU, is that going across, or do you have to have your individual government? So there's a baseline, if you like.

It's called the work-life balance directive. It sets a minimum. But what's happened is that many countries have taken the opportunity to reform beyond this minimum in really creative ways. And I think that's what we're seeing with France. Tell us a bit more about that. I introduced it. So in France, they already have about four months well-paid parenting leave, which is maternity leave, some paternity leave. And at the moment, you can actually take three years of parental leave, but it's very low benefit. So the proposal, I was talking to my colleagues in France yesterday, the proposal is to shorten this period of three years, but at the same time to increase the amount of benefit that's available for a new

shorter period. And the idea is, in line with the work-life balance directive is to incentivize more fathers to take leave but also to avoid that mothers spent a long time out of the labour market and in terms of our country in terms of the UK how do we compare so and you just pulled a face sorry sometimes I've got to describe what what's going on here with radio go on UK could we could be doing a lot better it often sounds good because we have a very long maternity leave but so much of it is unpaid and a lot of it's very badly paid we only have six weeks at 90% pay so if you compare that to Sweden for for example, each parent gets 240 days each. You can take it part-time, so it's up to 18 months of the child's first 18 months.

And what's different about UK is we call it shared parental leave, but it's actually transferable maternity leave. And the difference is that the time isn't earmarked for the other parent. So the mother has to essentially transfer some of the leave in order for it to happen. And it's really complicated. And the Nordic countries, we do often hear about life being a lot better in terms of equality, but higher levels of taxation is also what pays for it at times. There is certainly, you have to think about how you pay for it, but it's not just the Nordic countries that are doing exciting things. Spain has recently reformed the way they do parenting leave. They have something called birth leave now. And you've

got 16 weeks for both parents, individual entitlement. And what's really interesting is you've got six weeks which are obligatory for both parents. And it's at 100% pay. Elena, I know you look at what happens after parental leave when parents need childcare. What do you want to say about that? I think what's really important for us is that childcare is predominantly a women's issue, not just from the perspective of women predominantly, other ones responsible for doing the childcare, but also the childcare workforce is predominantly female as well. So it's really important for us to make sure that that system is working really well

for all the women and all the families involved. Do we see a similar pattern in childcare then to parental leave? France, Germany, Spain, in terms of being generous, and Scandinavian countries more generous? How does it work? I think it's really variable. It's really hard to say who's doing it well. We know, well, we know that the Scandinavian countries are doing it well, if you look, I guess. But one thing that is really important to us and what we spent a lot of the summer doing is looking at how we can improve the situation, because it's nice to look at other countries and say how great they are but a

lot of these countries have been doing it for years and years and years. So for example we were looking at how you might improve staff qualifications because we know that people looking after our children need to be really well qualified in order to do their job really effectively. So we were looking at Estonia and some reforms that they were doing in Estonia, which was really exciting, where they went from a system where early childcare workers were not really well paid and not really well supported in terms of training and development. Estonia did some reforms to bring them more in line with primary school teachers in terms of pay and training. And they saw an uptake, an oversubscription, if you will, in terms of the number of people wanting to be early years practitioners.

And then it had some really great benefits for the children as well. And you also looked at an interesting case study in New York. Yeah, New York was really interesting because they did this great thing where they put money to try and solve the problem, which is always important. But what they did is they were really canny about how they used their money. So they looked at existing systems that they had, like universities and existing training providers, and worked with them and the Department of Education in New York to try and build resources in that capacity. So they paid for training at universities as opposed to sort of rebuilding the system, reinventing the wheel. So we thought that was a really interesting example.

So paid for training of those working in childcare? Paid for a bit of training, but also paid for the development of like a training course, which didn't exist before. And rather than sort of just making it up from scratch they worked with universities who are already providing training for teachers and said well let's move this into the early years and added that on I understand exactly yeah it's a huge issue we wanted to take a quick trot around the world you've helped us do that um I'm sorry it wasn't longer but perhaps we can get you back and do that in more detail thank you very much much to Elena there and Alison too

for their expertise and bringing that to bear. Thank you for your messages today. I love this one. Just going back to eyeliner, being an older person who's worn eyeliner all her life, mine now resembles more of a barcode than a line with a few laughing emojis. Thank you so much for your company today as always.

Woman's Hour back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hi, I'm Sean Keaveney and I'm back with a new series of Your Place or Mine from BBC Radio 4, the travel show that's going nowhere. I'm a proper hornbird me, but each show sees another remarkable guest try to persuade me off my sofa and into the big wide world. And it is warm. It is

warm but you just don't wear a lot of clothes and you just find a banana tree that's wafting. Happy days. But will I make it out of the front door? Lots of smiles from people. I don't know if you're against that. Find out by listening to Your Place or Mine with Sean

Keaveney on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know... It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.