Woman's Hour - Driving anxiety, Erika Kirk profile, Marie Antoinette style

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

Journalist Mary McCarthy has been avoiding motorways for years, even planning her life around how to dodge them. She tells Kylie Pentelow how she discovered it’s a far more common problem than you might think, especially among women in mid-life.England are through to the Rugby World Cup final. They face Canada next Saturday but who will we see lift the trophy? Former player Kat Merchant gives her view.Who is Erika Kirk? Kylie speaks to Anne McElvoy, executive editor at Politico and host of the Sam and Anne political podcast, about the wife of Charlie Kirk, American activist and influencer, who was shot dead on 10 September. Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Suzan-Lori Parks discusses her new adaptation of The Harder They Come, based on the classic 1972 film whose legendary soundtrack brought reggae to the world. She joins Kylie to explain her process for adapting classic stories and how she rewrote the rules for language and structure in theatre.The UK’s first ever exhibition dedicated to the life of the French Queen Marie Antoinette has just opened at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. Marie Antoinette Style explores the lasting influence of the fashionable icon, showcasing more than 250 objects, some of which have never been seen outside of Versailles. So, who was this ill-fated queen and how does her style still resonate with us today?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What makes a bank more than a bank? It's more than products, apps, ATMs. It's being there when you need them with real people and real conversations. Let's face it, life gets real. RBC is the bank that we Canadians turn to for advice, because at the end of the day, that's what you deserve. A track record, not some trend.

Your idea of banking that's personal happens here. RBC, ideas happen here. Hello, I'm Kylie Pentalo and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the program as we head into autumn. Certainly feels like it this morning, doesn't it? Now, there's plenty to come today, including driving anxiety. I'll be talking to a woman who, after years of driving, now feels unable to drive on the motorway,

something that's having a huge impact on her life. So we want to hear from you on this. Have you found that your confidence behind the wheel has diminished as you've got older? How does it affect you? And maybe you might have some tips on how to overcome it. So text the programme, the numbers 84844, on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. You can email us through our website

or send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 037-100-444. Plus, the funeral of right-wing American activist and influencer Charlie Kirk was held this weekend. Since his murder, his widow Erica, has said she forgives his killer and is now emerging as a leader of the conservative movement in America.

So we'll be finding out more about her. Also, Suzanne Laurie Parks, the first African-American woman to win the Pulitzer Prize, joins me in the studio to discuss how she's revolutionised theatre in the country. And the most fashionable queen in history, a new exhibition of Mary Antoinette's style has just opened. I'll be talking to the curator about how it might just change our opinion of this complex icon. But first, England are through to the Women's Rugby World Cup final. Over the weekend we saw a nervy Red Rose's semi-final performance which eventually saw England kick on to defeat France 3517

and secure their place in a home final. Now they'll face Canada at a sold-out Twickenham at the stadium this Saturday. Now they've made it this far, but will they lift the trophy? Well, my next guest knows exactly what it takes to win. I'm joined by former World Cup winner turned fitness coach and pundit cat merchant. Welcome to Women's Hour Cat. Yeah, thanks for having me on. Great to be here.

Lovely to speak to you this morning. So England, through to the final. It wasn't an easy game, was it? France, the underdogs trailed 7-5 at half-time. They could have easily led. But as ever, the Red Roses fought on, didn't they? So what does this all say about the England team that we have now? Yeah, so this England team, they have found a way to win,

and they have got to the final. I think there's been criticism of them because, they are so, so good, and last year was so so dominant. And in fact, the last few years have just been incredibly dominant. We've not yet see them put in a complete performance yet, and we know there's more in the tank. Now, we have seen Canada put in a very complete performance against New Zealand that knocked them out, and they are the on-form team.

So this suddenly changes the, oh, England, of course, that when they've come in, like, and without them performing to their full ability, it's now a real, We're going to have a tight final. You know what it takes, what it feels like, to be in a Rugby World Cup final. Does being in front of a home crowd make a difference, do you think? Yeah, it does. Although I was talking about this the other day. I played in an era where it was growing, so we didn't have that many people watching.

I've also played towards the end where we had lots of crowds. For me, I never personally really, like I loved it, that they were there, but as soon as that whistle goes, it could be no one in watching, it could be 100 million. I genuinely didn't matter. I was just, we're there, we're on the pitch and that's what we're doing. I do think a full Allian Stadium at Trinam is going to be very different because that's 82,000 people that are there. But I think in order to like embrace it, yes, but you've just got to focus on the rugby because you can't have any distraction once you're on that pitch. And despite how big it's become, and you were saying the real difference there between when you, you

played, which is encouraging, isn't it, to see that growth? But there's been a shortage of rugby shirts available for fans to buy. Do you think that would happen in the men's game? You know, is that a positive thing, I guess? Because maybe that demand for women's game was under-anticipated. Oh, I heard that it was an admin error. So I don't know if that's just going to be done, but I heard it was an admin error and they forgot to add a zero at the end of an order.

So they have been very much in short supply. and I've got friends that I've spoken to and they've been going on watching the rugby and they really wanted to have a shirt to support and they've not been able to. So it is a shame, it's a missed opportunity because we, they set out, asked the last World Cup and they said that

they would fill Triggerham Stadium, they'd fill the Allian Stadium. So, and they've done that, which is incredible. So I think they knew how far the game was going and what the potential that they had in it. And what I love as well is it's not just been the England games people are just going to watch rugby because they're loving the quality of it they're loving the tournament

and it's been fantastic to be a part of the pundit and commentary team So Saturday it's Canada as we were saying they beat defending champions New Zealand what can we expect to see in this final do you think

Canada is just it honestly they're so good this tournament they really have and I was one of the ones who said our Canada beat New Zealand in a semi, like said it beforehand and people were like, no, New Zealand win World Cups and everyone was expecting that England, New Zealand clash again because England haven't beaten New Zealand in a final. It was going to be redemption story, you know, all of this. And then actually my worry is that they've gone, oh, good, we're not playing New Zealand. No, not good. This is worse. Canada are dangerous. They're so, so good. And it is for people maybe listening who haven't, who haven't watched a women's game as much. It's not the same as a man's like Canada in men's rugby. You don't. hear much of them. They're not one of the big hitters in the men's game. In the women's, they have been dominant for many years. In 2014, we won against them in the final, but in the pool stages, we drew with them. So this is how good they've been consistently for a long,

long time. And yeah, the final, it's going to be, England need to play their best rugby to win it, and we've not seen their best rugby yet. So I think they're very capable of doing it, and I back them to do it. But on form, you have to say that Canada are more likely to win that game on the form going into it. So it's going to be a good match, isn't it, whatever way you look at it. It's interesting what you said about Canada, though, because they've had to crowd fund their way,

haven't they, to this tournament? Tell us about that. Well, they're not paid. They're not professional, and they crowdfunded a million Canadian dollars to be able to come across to this. But what I love is the players don't talk about it. The players just say, no, no, we're professional

in everything other than the fact we're not paid. and that's also what makes it dangerous it is because I again I played in an era where I wasn't professional and I played in an era where it was semi-pro and played ball pro. Now when you're amateur, you are getting up at 6am, you're doing your session, you're going to work all day and then you're going to rugby training in the evening. You have to be the sort of person that is willing to do all of that. Like without being paid, you're doing it because you want to and because you love it and you're proud of your country.

So that in itself is a very dangerous thing compared to, you know, England, been professional now for a while they are really you know they set the marker out to everybody else look you've got to fund your women and support your women and they need to and so whatever happens with Canada I hope they do get the support that they that they need because if you get that passion and then you support it great but I think you know whatever happens on Saturday it's an amazing story it's either England's redemption for for not winning a World Cup even being in the final for a long time or it's wow having Canada actually smashed it with like very minimal support.

I'm going to put you on the spot. What do you think? What's your prediction? So I'd always, I'm going to, I will always say England. Like, they have say England. But, but with a caveat of they have to show their best. And they have, I've been on the pundit team and I have said England are not performing. At one point, I thought they were 30% of what they could have.

So they have it in the tank. But if they do not show up, Canada will 100% that they'll win that. So England has to show up. They've got the ability they can do it. It's just hopefully we see that. Kat, lovely to speak to you, Kat Merchant there. Now, just a reminder that England faced Canada

and the Women's Rugby World Cup final on Saturday. You can follow all the action across the BBC. And join us here on Women's Hour on Wednesday, when Nula will be speaking to the New Zealand of rugby legend Ruby Tooey. So make sure you're listening to that. Now the funeral of the American activist and influencer Charlie Kirk was held yesterday. He was shot dead earlier this month, aged 31, at a debating event with students, the kind of event that helped propel him to social media stardom.

He was repeatedly described as a martyr and cast as a historic figure for the Conservative movement. It was his wife, Erica, who took centre stage yesterday alongside Donald Trump. She gave a speech thanking all the thousands there for coming, most notably saying that she forgave the man that murdered her husband. On the afternoon of September 10th, I arrived at a Utah hospital to do the unthinkable, to look directly at my husband's murdered body. Father, forgive them, for they not know what they do. That man, that young man, I forgive him.

That was Erica Kirk speaking there, and she has vowed to continue his legacy. So to learn more about her, I'm joined by executive editor at Politico and host of the Sam and Ann Political podcast, Anne McElvoy. Anne, welcome back to Women's Hour. Thank you very much for your company. So can you just tell us about Erica Kirk then? What do we know about her? Yes.

I mean, she was very much in the background of this turning point movement. of which Charlie Kirk, the now late murdered Charlie Kirk, was the famous frontman. But she had been very strongly involved in that world, if you like, of the Maga Penumbra. She was a quite well-known figure with a podcast of her own, particularly targeted on young women, out of Arizona, a state which obviously has quite mixed politics,

but it also has a very strong core of people who are involved, in Make America Great again, who are Trump supporters, who very much stand for the world not on the coast, so far away from the liberal coast. So she was well known in those circles. She'd been married only a few years ago to Charlie Kirk and had two small children. And this moment, really, when she spoke there at that memorial,

was a gathering of the Maga clans. It was that message of forgiveness, which resonated very much targeted. on the political opponents of Donald Trump and her late husband, basically calling out, as she would see it, those who had in some way suggested that it was Charlie Kirk and it was his rhetoric and his way of doing right-wing politics that had caused this spiral of hate. She really spoke against that,

but she also then kind of took it to them, saying that she forgave the murderer, which was, I think you could hear it there. There was an intake of breath around that. stadium in Glendale, Arizona when she said that. How did she and Charlie Kirk meet and how involved in Turning Point USA, that's the

platform co-founded by her late husband. Has she been up to this point? Well, she has, but as I say, she's been much more power behind the throne and that has tended to be the role. I don't mean this in it in any way to do them down, but that has tended to be the operating manual

for a lot of the women in the Magan Movement. If you think of someone like Usher Vance, you know, highly intelligent woman, lawyer, Cambridge, UK Cambridge, educated in Terralia. But, you know, when you see her alongside J.D. Vance, it's quite clear that her role is alongside and not, if you like, in the forward operating position. I think what is so interesting here is this melding of the personal and the grieving, which was clearly very genuine and from the heart and this terrible shock and suffering.

This is, after all, as she said, you know, she said, I am a widow. In America will hear the anger of a widow. And so will the world, though her first comment. They were then different when she actually got up and cited the Bible, forgive them, if they know not what they do. That was a different side of it. But the message that she's really putting out is that she will continue her husband's work. Again, that does have biblical connotations. It has prophet-like connotations.

This is a world in which the language of evangelical Christianity is the lingua franca. It's not unusual. It doesn't perhaps strike people who are switching into it from. outside that world as being overintent tense has been strangely sort of animated. But that is the way you know, I've been to one of those

rallies, actually Charlie Kirk then spoke later at the rally that I was at about a year ago. And it is just noticeable that that is the way that she is carrying on the message. She will now become CEO. So she will have a much more forward role. She says that was something her husband

wanted and ordained. You know, there's always a sense of predestination. So it has a religious, a political, an ideological and personal, all melded together. That's where the power of these events comes from for the supporters. So given the continued move by the Trump administration and the MAGA movement to celebrate women, I guess, in what are referred to as more traditional roles in the home and so on, how does the fact that she's taking on this bigger role then marry with that broader message to American women? well you know it's not the only time when you've seen women in some ways wanting to have a message for women who are homemakers who want to be at home have children and have a more traditional view of marriage and family life and then you've got very ambitious women who are out there in public i have to say in fairness i don't think that is only a trump era phenomenon i mean certainly there are very tough women we've talked about them once or twice when i've come on that women's hour you know susy was etc who like busy

dawn to dusk and are absolutely the toughest political operators in the business. But then at the same time, you have this appeal, particularly on the Christian right, which Erica Kirk represents and Charlie Kirk was bringing that Christian right-wing message to campuses, two high schools. That's really been the world that they created and that what they lived in. So I think they see it, if you like, as part of their prophetic duty. but it's deeply political, it's deeply entwined with the Trump project. If you ask me my opinion, I think the Trump project keeps a bit of a wary eye on it.

We heard a different tone from Donald Trump. He said he didn't forgive enemies. He took the fight to enemies. So Trump always likes to have his own message. He embraced Erica Kirk. He also spoke directly and warmly about Charlie Kirk. But in a sense, he sees this as being in the service of his Mugger movement, not the other way around. I think in certain places there are a few tensions around this because he's

always had a funny relationship with evangelicals. He's an atheist for a long time. He didn't show much interest in religion. He has discovered that this is a very powerful alliance. And let's not forget, he's taking the fight to his Democratic Party and enemies on the left. He's basically saying this is us united. You guys are, you know, you're not only divided, but some of you are not that sympathetic about the assassination of Charlie Kirk. And to that extent, he's got a point. So they're calling it out in a way that is politically, I think, in alliance. OK, Anne McAvoy, thank you very much, your comments there. That's Anne McAlevoy, who's the executive editor at Politico. Now, this is a very interesting topic that lots of you

have already got in touch with us on. Now, many of us, motorway driving, an essential part of getting from A to B. But for some women, the prospect of gliding down the slip road into the line of speeding traffic sparks sheer panic. My next guest, the journalist Mary McCarthy, has driven all across Europe. But in recent years, she started avoiding motorways entirely, even planning her life around how to dodge them. Now she says it's taking an increasingly damaging toll on her life. When she started writing about this and looking for answers, she heard from many, many women, also in midlife, with the same issue. and we can speak to Mary now. Mary, welcome to Women's Hour.

Good morning, Carly. Great to be here. Thanks for joining us. So tell me personally then, for you, what's the problem? So when you describe me there, I sound a lot more adventurous than I am. I actually have lived in Greece, and I live now in Belgium. So while I haven't really driven around Europe, I've driven in those countries because I have to drive. So I've always been quite a skittish driver. I started, I learned very late. I was like 31, and I only learned because I had to move to South Africa and everyone told me you need to be able to drive.

And then I had a child a year later. And I just never really took to it. I avoided it whenever possible. And from the very start, I never went on motorways. I mean, I did, I think I've been on a motorway probably about 10 times. And I can remember nearly every time it's an absolute disaster. I think when I try and look back, I think because I was quite skittish from the start

and I learned on an automatic, I didn't even go, near the stick shift. But because I never did motorway lessons, I know in the UK you can do them when you're learning, but you can't in Ireland. So it wasn't an option. And I just felt I built this, the motorway up to be this big fear. And then whenever I did go on it, it was just terrifying. I mean, like people have contacted me to say that they're also scared, but a lot of people have contacted me to say, what are you talking about? Like, it's the safest road you can be on, you know? But for me, it's like Mario Kart. That's how I describe it. Like, I sit in my lane, I'm actually like frozen and petrified. I can't overtake. And because you don't

overtake, but then people start to beep at you and that kind of drives me into more of a frenzy. And I just feel it's so fast. And I feel I'm scared that I'm going to make a mistake. But I'm also scared of other people. Like I feel people are quite reckless on the motorway. And like they're shaving off a second. They're not even, you know, they just, cars will overtake and then you'll see them, you know, a few minutes later. And they haven't even moved. You know, So I'm just scared of it. Even as a passenger, Kylie, like I'll sit there. You know, my husband hates when I sit in the front.

He actually puts one of the kids now in the front because I'm there. Like, you know, he makes, like I make him a nervous wreck. So I'm just scared. And I guess I've always navigated. You said there, I avoided them. And that's what I did, right? I said it my life. I avoided them.

But then now the kids are older and I moved to Brussels last year. And suddenly all my kind of like little workarounds I had like a big, a large network, I get my siblings. I'm like, even I get my dad. I'm embarrassed now. He's 80. I'll get him to drive me and the kids. If someone has a cricket match

the other side of the city, he drive me like, you know, and it's an embarrassing. But it's only now, I'm really seeing, you know, this is going to really, it limits, like the kids, they need to go increasingly different places. And of course, we try and get public transport.

That's the first port of call. But there has been times where I've even said, oh, look, you can't make that play date. And I feel really bad because we've just, moved here and he's making friends you know this my 10 year old but to me it's like I just can't do it because by the motorway we could go 22 minutes but would we get public transport it's going to take the guts of two hours and then I'll just have other stuff to do so you know my my my daughter was saying the other day she's 14 she was like mammy just lock in do it like you can drive you know

I'll help you we'll put it on Google Maps and we'll do it together and I was like I can't you know, and I just feel I really want to show her, like feel the fear, do it anyway. And Kylie, I'm going to be 50 next year. So I've actually set myself a goal that I'm going to take a motorway lessons. And I'm going to, I mean, I'm not going to be driving on the autoban in Germany, ever. I'm never going to be so many drives, like, when we're abroad, you know. But if I could drive to IKEA, I'd be happy. I mean, Mary, you're clearly not alone.

We've had so many cool messages on this. This one here says, I have awful motorway driving anxiety. you describe me today. I can even visualise driving on the motorway and get anxiety. It does limit me and want desperately to overcome this. I'll try and read some more of your comments, but I want to bring in Diane Curtis Knight here. Diane, welcome to Women's Hour.

You're a driving anxiety coach, aren't you? Yes, I am. So this must be very familiar to you hearing Mary's story. It's a story I hear day in and day out when I'm speaking to my clients, yes. So is this something that you have seen that specifically affects women and women in mid-life? I would say my client base is 80-20, mostly women.

I do have men. Demographic and age group does tend to be a little bit more towards the, dare I say, perimenopauseal part of our life. But not exclusively. I have worked with younger people as well. But yeah, it's the story I'm hearing here is a story that when I do my video call consult,

with clients, it's the same story, time and time again. So what are they actually experiencing then, similar to Mary with motorway or is it other areas too? Motorway tends to be the most common. It's where very often it starts. Some clients actually have been very confident, competent drivers, driving all over the country, all over the world even, and then they experience something along the lines of a panic attack whilst on a motorway. The brain links the problem to being on the motorway when in actual fact it was probably a manifestation of an issue that they've other parts of their life, the stress

and so on that they've got going on. But because it's manifested itself on the motorway, the brain links the problem to being on the motorway and it says you need to get off and you need to not come back again because it has a perceived threat there when the threat, you know, isn't there. Not to say that motorways shouldn't be taken lightly. They definitely should, and as Mary quite rightly said, there is some interesting drivers out there sometimes.

Let's read a few more comments from our listeners. Emma in the Vale of Glamorgan says, I developed motorway driving anxiety as I entered the menopause. It also extends to driving over bridges. I've tried a variety of visualisation techniques. I've also found that daily motorway driving for short periods has helped. I won't

let it defeat me. She says, this one here from Mel, says, in my early 50s. I increasingly lost confidence when driving on motorways despite having previously driven half the length of the country on a regular basis. I put this down to two factors, a worsening of my claustrophobia and deteriorating eyesight. However, I've heard suggestions since that the menopause might also be a factor and that's something that we were talking about and many of our listeners actually saying that. So listening to those then, Diane, and obviously listening to Mary, what do you do as a driving anxiety coach? You know, you're not a psychologist. You're looking

practically, aren't you? So what do you do here to help people? That's right. I am a coach as opposed to a therapist, but what we tend to work on is a multiple level approach. So first of all, we start thinking about our thoughts, which affect our feelings, which affect our actions, and we need to break that closed loop. So first of all, I start talking to people about the language or the story that they tell. So Mary just now said, I can't drive on motorways. So we need to start changing that story to plant seeds into the subconscious mind to say, well, okay, I can't do it yet, but maybe I can do it at some stage. So the word yet is a very, very powerful word to start changing those thoughts, which then affect the feelings, which then affect our actions. We do need to get out there and do it.

You know, we can theorise as much as we like. But until we actually start dipping our toe in gently, as that previous person stated, they won't let it overcome them. And so therefore they still get out there and do short steps. And that's exactly right. It's baby steps we get out there. So changing our story and what we tell ourselves is very, very important. Exposure therapy in a very gentle baby step fashion. And we need to break that closed chain.

So I also recommend I've got a journal that I give to my clients. They write down their goals that they would like to be able to achieve. No goal is too small. No goal is too large. And they set their objectives, what barriers might get in the way, and then what they're going to do to overcome those barriers. The second section of the journal is journalising their actual, events that they've done. First of all, also scoring how they feel about that journey. So 10 being

high, one being totally fine. And then the actual score. And what we tend to find is a pattern that the anticipation of the journey is very often worse than the execution of the journey. And even if they do get a spike of anxiety, that spike very often won't last much more than 90 seconds. It might feel like the longest 90 seconds of your life, but it will dissipate. And by then proving to the subconscious brain and the physical person that what they've just achieved was okay and actually they were safe, we then start to break that chain and they start to feel better about getting out and then pushing to the next level. But it's always just pushing very gently. And And if they're allowed to have a backward step, they rest and they go back again.

Mary, how's that sounding to you? Does that sound like something manageable? And one of our listeners there saying, you know, very small steps going on the motorway every day to kind of try to get used to it. Everything that Deanne is saying is making so much sense. Like that spike, the panic spike, like my panic is that the panic is going to stay for the whole journey. But to know that it's going to be assured. it and then the obstacles. So my big thing is that there's going to be roadworks.

So if I look at Google Maps, and even though it says there's no motorway on this route, like I won't take it in case there's roadworks and then somehow I'm magiced on to the motorway. So, Diane, I can see that's something I need to break that chain of kind of catastrophe thinking, you know, and the anticipation. I mean, I did have to drive to Charlewa Airport.

I did go a back road. I didn't take the motorway. It took me three times as long. But honestly, I dreaded it for, I didn't sleep than I before. I mean, it's so sad. But then when I actually went to do it, and I brought my 16-year-old with me,

so I'd have someone to go on the way back, you know, I got out of the car and I was like, okay, you know, I don't know why I was so scared. You know, it wasn't easy for me, but you're right. It's like you just break the anticipation and a tiny step. So I do feel, yeah, maybe I might be able to do it. We've had, honestly, we've had so many comments on this.

It's definitely rung true with many of our listeners. This one from Andrea says, was scared of motorways, then realised it's learned behaviour, just what you were saying, Diane. I tried to relearn. A panic attack did set this off when I was around 19.

She says, I'm 60 now and OK driving in most circumstances. That's good to hear. This one here from Anne says, I like to go early morning about 6am and find there are a few cars and even fewer lorries. I came back from Rutland this weekend

with no hold-ups or crowded lanes. And then one from Sandra in Chesterfield who says, I had a couple of panic tax while trying to overtake on the motorway. That's something you were talking about, Mary, the speed of the cars around you. She says, I'm so uncomfortable now if there's traffic on either side of me. When the lanes narrow and there's barriers with roadworks, I've had to deep breathe

and literally talk my way through, pulling off as soon as we're through just to recover. This all began five years ago. I'm almost 62 now, but find myself driving less and less. Just very briefly, if you can, Diane. And is that something that you are seeing that people, as they get older, are choosing to drive less? Yes. Obviously, everyone's circumstances in their life are different. But if there's a less need to drive, it does tend to become more of an issue. Whereas if you have to do something, just as Mary was saying, she's taking two hours to do something, it should take 20 minutes.

There's a need to do this. So I tend to find that people that recover more effectively are the people who have a genuine need to get out there and fulfil that drive. Really interesting to talk to you both about this. Diane Curtis Knight and Mary McCarthy, thank you very much for your time here on Women's Hour. Now, just to note that we would love to hear from you if you have experienced burnout or feel like you're heading in that direction. So maybe you were a leader carrying out a lot of, carrying a lot of responsibility, running your own business maybe, or an employee deeply dedicated to your work and eager to progress in your career. Well, at some point, did it all become too much? Did you find yourself needing to take that break or to step away from that career totally that you'd imagined for yourself?

Well, we're very keen to hear from you on this. If you've experienced any kind of burnout or indeed feel like you're heading towards it. So do get in touch in the usual ways. Text Woman's Hour on 84844, and you can also contact us on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website to do get in touch. We always like to hear from you. Now, Tony Award and Pulitzer Prize winning playwrights, Suzanne Laurie Parks, revolutionised American theatre with her poetic style and redefined whose stories get told and how language, history and identity are staged. Well, she's with me now to distinguish.

discuss her new adaptation of The Harder They Come. It's based on the 1972 classic film, which helped to bring reggae to the world. Now, the play features brand new additional songs, along with original music by legendary reggae star Jimmy Cliff, who wrote the title track. Suzanne Laurie Parks, thanks so much for coming in. Thanks so much for having me. It's impossible not to move to that track, isn't it? Yeah, it's really great. Even sitting right here, I was kind of dancing in my seat.

Yeah. So it's such the film, The Harder They Come. Such an iconic Jamaican story, isn't it? What interested you in working on this adaptation? Yeah, right when I saw the film and I saw it, you know, in the States on what we have, the late, late at night, they show, you know, late at night, they show the old movies. And I saw it and I thought to myself, wow, you know, we are so beautiful, you know. It's a, everyone was, the story was so rich and so full of possibility.

And then fast forward, you know, whatever it was, 15, 20 years. later when the folks from Washington Square films, Joshua Blum, Bruce Miller, and Justine Hensel, the daughter of the director, Perry Hensel, called me up and said, would you like to work on it? And I was like, oh, of course. I was right in there because I saw the mythic, epic possibilities in the story. You've said your approach isn't to reinvent the wheel, but to roll the wheel forward. I wonder what you mean by that and what it means for this Yeah. Well, it means, for me, it means to first and foremost, you know, acknowledge that the original, the original film is awesome, is great, and then to just roll it forward, just to enrich it, to enliven it, to sing, to allow the, what I say, the undersung characters to sing, to develop those stories that were perhaps not as developed in the original, not only the story of, Ivan, you know, to strengthen and develop his story, but also the stories of Daisy, his mother, and Elsa, his one true love.

So what have you done for them then in this adaptation? Well, you know, I just listen, you know, I just listen to them. You know, for example, in the film, if I'm remembering correctly, the film, we see the mother, Daisy, I think, one time, you know, in the beginning of the film. in our show we see her several times throughout the film I'm sorry throughout the musical and we she is Ivan's touchstone if you will

you know he goes to her in the beginning of the show and she says no you've got to go home of course he you know back to country you know of course he says no I'm going to stay and so he stays but then during the course of the story he encounters her he comes to visit her she comes to visit him

to check up on him to see how he's doing she calls him her good son he was always such a good young man you know and she worries that if he stays in Kingston he'll turn criminal

because the city was not a very welcoming place for her and her husband Ivan's father back in the day so that's Daisy story and then Elsa you know Elsa is Ivan's one true love, his love interest. And it's not a small thing to give a character a love interest. Because, as you know, Kylie, when we fall in love, it's everything. Yes, it's everything. And suddenly the world is born anew. You're born anew in the world. The stakes are raised.

There's another heart beating in your heart. You know what I mean? You're not just going for yourself. You know, you're not just looking out for number one. Number one is suddenly two, you know? So all those things blossom for Ivan. And so that's what we've done for them. We really brought them into the story and given them storylines. And it's a theme of your work, isn't it, to give a voice to those not usually heard. So how important is that to you? And how important has it been over your amazing career?

Thank you. It has been an amazing career. And my best work is in front of me, I would say it's true, it's true, which includes the harder they come right now. it's you know I listen I listen and if if you know the warp and weft of the world is like this and I listen into the cracks because there are so many people so many stories that are singing that we don't hear because we're paying attention to the main you know the things we've been told to pay attention to so it's very important for me as a writer to listen and to see and my vision is to see you you know that's my artistic vision

if you will, or to hear you, I think it makes us all richer. I know it makes the world better. I know deep inside my writer's bones that we are all connected, even though we don't look alike. You know what I mean? We're all members of the same tribe, if you will. And so when I uplift myself, I uplift you as well. That's the idea. When I uplift you, I uplift myself as well. When I uplift an Elsa character, I actually make Ivan's story richer. And the whole of the entire narrative is richer and just more entertaining. It's more fun. There are more people at the party.

You know what I'm saying? It's a better time. It's a good time. As I said, you were the first African-American woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for drama. What was that moment like and how has that changed your career? Oh, wow. Yeah, to be the first, to be on the vanguard, you know. it's a great blessing, of course, and it's a great responsibility because I have to, you know, I'm a sort of standard bearer.

You know, I'm the one people look to and say, what is she thinking right now. And I take that response. You know, I can wear the jacket, as they say, you know, we say in the States. But it was a lot because I think the industry at that time didn't quite know what to do with the likes of me. I looked at my peers, you know, dude men, dudes, who would win the prize, Pulitzer Prize. And the industry knew how to stir them in, weave them into the fabric of whatever the next level was. The industry was not quite sure what to do with me. And I'm still giving them lots to think about, but we're having a good time.

Do you think, therefore, that there has been change since that moment? And has theatre kind of shifted in how it makes space for diverse women? Yes. I think that there's been change. I think there's been good change. I think there's a lot of change yet to come. I think we can't, you know, stick a fork in it and call it done, you know, or plant the flag and say, yay, success. Now we can all go home.

I think there's still a lot of listening to be done. There's a lot of uplifting to be done. There's a lot of embracing. You know, a lot of times people say, think when you bring in diverse people, you're going to ruin it for the ones who were there before, you know, and there's just got to be a better way to think about that. There's got to be a more, a smarter way to think about that because there's cake enough for everybody. I really believe that. Just a couple of days ago, President Trump made some comments. He threatened to

revoke broadcasting licenses of TV channels, airing views that he didn't agree with. It's led to some say that they fear for the future of free speech in the country. Is this something that you think about or concerns you? And is that impact being felt across, obviously we're talking about kind of media there, but is this being felt across other cultural industries like theatre? In my experience, there has always been censorship in the arts. I mean, again, being the first black woman to win the poster. prize and drama. There's all, and the industry did not know quite what to do with me. There was a kind of censorship back then. It might not have been, uh, the kind of censorship going on now,

but there's all, there are always been gatekeepers. There have always been fears. There have always been, uh, those who were let in and those who were kept out. Um, there have always been people who were told to be quiet. There have always been plays that should get to Broadway, for example, and don't, you know. So this has been happening. for a long time and I think we will gather strength and perhaps some wisdom in how to manage it if we realize that it is something that has been going on for quite some time and we need to become better coders if you will. Yeah. I wonder what your advice would be to young women today who are thinking of progressing into the world of theatre.

whatever for. Yeah, or film. I mean, I write for film and TV and I write novels and I have a band, you know, so I'm just going on. No end to your talent. But I, you know, I have, I have students because I teach at NYU and I have lots and lots of students. And I, I always ask them, how might your gifts be used to make the world a more beautiful place? And that's, I don't teach them how to sharpen their elbows so they can elbow people at a cocktail party. I don't teach that. That is something that they might want to learn. But I just say, what are your gifts and how might you employ those to make the world a better place? And in that, I also encourage them, do your nearest duty to the very best of your ability. Your nearest duty to the best of your

ability. Yeah. That's a beautiful way to look at it. And I guess you might say, don't give up, because I heard that one of your teachers told you that your spelling wasn't good enough. Oh, yes. And she was right. She was absolutely right. I was an absolutely horrible speller.

And this is way before we had, you know, the beauty of spell check, right? So I was just, because I would sound a word. I didn't mean, English is, right? I mean, crazy language to learn how to spell. She was right. I was a poor speller. but I turned it into, I became the castor of spells. And I'm great at that.

Well, I'm so glad you didn't listen and carried on because you've had this wonderful career and who knows what's next for you. It's been wonderful to speak to you, Suzanne Laurie Parks. Thank you so much. And just to say that the harder they come runs Stratford East until the 25th. Now, I've had lots of your comments coming in about driving anxiety.

This one here says, I'm 50 for the last 4 to 5 years. I feel like my spatial awareness has nosedived and now really dislike driving on the motorway or even busy dual carriageways joining busy roads via a slip road is particularly stressful. And this one here from Rachel, she says, as a young woman, I drove everywhere and my car was totally. totally my independence. I used to drive from Gloucestershire to London and back several times a week and thought nothing of motorway driving. She says I'm now 54 and have developed a huge fear and anxiety about motorways. I have to drive back from Norfolk Glass Friday. I was terrified and was shaking with fear. I don't know why this is happening and I find it restricting and embarrassing. Thank you so much for sharing your comments on this. We will of course try to get more of them on the program before 11 o'clock. But now, Her diamond-studied gowns sparkled while France fell into financial crisis during the French Revolution. Now the UK's first ever exhibition dedicated to Marie Antoinette's has just opened at the Victorian Albert Museum in London. Marie Antoinette's style explores the lasting influence of the fashion icon,

showcasing more than 250 objects, some of which have never been seen outside Versailles. So who was this ill-fated queen? and how does her style still resonate with us today? Or to discuss this, I'm joined by Sarah Grant, the curator of the Marianternet style exhibition even, Professor Katrina Seth, the Professor of French Literature at the University of Oxford. Welcome to Women's Hour to both of you.

Good morning, thank you. Katrina, let's start with you. Can you just tell us a little more about Marianette? We know, of course, she was the last Queen of France. But give us a little bit of background as to who she was. Mahjoltenet was born in Austria in 1755. She was the last daughter of Maria Theresa, the formidable empress of Austria. And as such, she was a pawn as far as her mother was concerned.

Her mother was very inter-marrying her children to important people. And the best prize there was on the marriage drafts board, if you will, was the king of France or the future king of France. and young Marie Antoinette, who was known as Antonia or Antoine when she was little, was shipped off to France in 1770, not yet 15, to be married to a man she had never met. And she arrived in a court in which nobody was really looking forward to meeting her because Austria had traditionally been an enemy of France. And I think we need to remember that.

First and foremost, Marie Antoinette is someone to whom a lot of harm was done as a child. I mean, we would now consider it to be abusive. She ended up in this court where she was surrounded by people who were quite often spying on her, trying to trip her up. She had her husband who was not interested in her at all. It took seven years for the marriage to be consummated. And during this time, poor old Marie Antoinette, or poor young, Marie Antoinette, I should say, had to find ways to occupy herself. And how did she occupy herself? She was a very good musician. She played the harp very well, played the keyboard, she sang, and she got very interested in fashion. And I think that's one of the things which comes out in the lovely

exhibition which Sarah Grant has curated at the VNA. And Sarah, I went to see the exhibition yesterday. It is wonderful. It really is. And this has been years in the planning for you, hasn't it? It has. It has. So I first pitched it in 2017, so that's eight, eight years ago. And it was to our then new director, Dr. Tristram Hunt. And so he approved it. But then I went on maternity leave. Then we had COVID. Then we were furloughed.

Then we also got the money to redo the roof of the galleries, which was very important. So there were a few delays. But then we sort of started working on it in earnest in 2021. So for four years, really, for the past four years, we've been working on it steadily. It must be so wonderful for you to see it finished. It was. It was. It was incredibly exciting.

and we had a wonderful exhibition team and actually the core exhibition team at the V&A was all female as well so it was there was this real sort of camaraderie while working on this, you know, quite exceptional sort of early modern female icon, early modern celebrity and you know some of the sort of issues

that Katrina has just been talking about the misogyny that she faced so actually for us it sort of felt quite powerful and quite moving at times. Yeah so how does it kind of unpick that image? I guess that we've been sold of her haven't we of being that kind of reckless spender whose lavish lifestyle was bankrupting her country?

Yes, I mean, I think in the past 10 to 15 years, and this is what we wanted to reflect in the exhibition as well, there's been so much new research on Marianne Chenech that has really helped to contextualize that kind of idea, that idea the vacuous sort of spent throughout the profligate queen, which has largely, you know, disproven that, or certainly added greater context to it, you know, the queen's brothers spent more than she did,

her predecessor also spent lavishly. France is virtually bankrupt anyway when she arrives in France as Katrina Katrina will explain so you know everything is already primed to revolution it's certainly not marrying to net spending the bankrupt's France however her expenditure is complex but then there is this whole sort of ecosystem at the court

where she has you know this entire sort of you know at court there around sort of 1500 people living at court across 222 apartments and they depend on the king queen and they depend on them for their livelihoods And her wardrobe staff, in particular, depend on her to spend lavishly because they actually, part of their salary and muneration, comes from her wardrobe, which is split up between them,

to sort of divide it between them at the end of the year. It's part of their salary. But she's also supposed to create this sort of regal spectacle as well. It's part of her role as queen because she has no political power at all. So under French law, she is not allowed to exercise any political power. Her role is soft power, and she does that through fashion. It's interesting, though, because it feels a bit like Katrina that she can't win. because there's a famous portrait of her in the exhibition

in a simple Muslim dress. So she changed, hadn't she, the lavish way of dressing? Then she was criticised for that. You're quite right. It was one of those, damned if you do, damned if you don't cases. Marie Antoinette, after her husband comes to power in 1774, is given Triano, a small palace in the grounds in Versailles,

and she wants to make it into her own home. And it really is a notion of home. She wants to be somewhere which belonged to her, which she can decorate in a way she enjoys, where she can have the garden she wants, and also where she can have small receptions for her friends and not just sit and be observed

when she's having lunch, as happens in Versailles. And that is misunderstood by the French people who think, well, you know, if she's withdrawing, if she doesn't want to be seen, what has she got to hide? And there are extraordinary rumours circulating. She has a theatre built, which is a tiny

little thing, which is made you know, with bits of papier-mache decor and things like that. And there are rumours swirling round saying that, you know, it's diamond studded and things like that. And very often, I mean, that's just an image, but very often, Marriottin, it's blamed for things which she hasn't done, as well as for things she has done. So, for instance, if she gives a gratification to somebody

or if she protects somebody, if anything else happens, she is assumed to have been the one who lobbied in their favour. and very often she's accused of things which she's completely ignorant of. And one of those, Sarah, being portrayed as a sex addict. There's an exhibition, in the exhibition you have booklets that they depict her making love to a guard. They do, they do, yes.

And because the marriage goes unconsummated, as Katrina said, for seven years or not properly, fully consummated, because her brother has to intervene, he has to come over and actually sort of give advice to Louis XVI. That must have been very awkward. Terrible. Terrible, excruciating. And he writes the most extraordinary letter

back to his brother in Vienna where he discusses this conversation that they had, which is probably too graphic to kind of repeat here. But yes, no, it's because of those things, you know, people say, what on earth is going on? She must be sleeping with everybody else, you know. And also because, as Katrina said, she was already sort of an enemy of France

being, you know, coming from Austria when she first arrives. You know, they're always sort of suspected. a lot of rumors sort of go around as well about her sisters-in-law as well, the Contest Artaire, Contest of Provence, who came from Savoy, which is sort of modern-day Italy. So this was certainly part of the course as a foreign bride who arrives in France. But yes, she had this female coterie, and she accords sort of new significance, new importance to women,

to female courtes at court. She sort of elevates them, and this also draws the suspicion of people and draws sort of the ire of people. And she's accused of feminizing the court, feminizing the king, having an undue influence over the king. And I think also because she was an extroverted personality, because she enjoyed fashion. She's a very youthful queen as well.

She's only 18 when she becomes queen, and she's in her early 20s when she experiences her first decade as queen. She's an easy, an easy target for that. There's so much I want to talk to you about, but we are running out of time. Katrina, I just want to ask. Many people might think of the phrase, let them eat cake when we hear of Marionette.

Is there any evidence that she said this? Alas, there's no evidence at all that Marie Antoinette said this. It's a phrase which turns up referring to someone who lived long before Marie Antoinette, not to Marri Antoinette, and even her worst enemies never accuse her during her lifetime of having said it. So I think we can fairly conclude that that's yet another urban myth. Sarah, then, just finally, we should mention that there's a lot of look at during the exhibition of the contemporary influence that Marianne Trinette has had.

So what do you hope that people kind of take away from it? And do you think maybe it will help change opinions of her? I hope so because I think whether you sympathise with her or whether you criticise her, what is undeniable is her continuous influence, you know, her legacy has been incredibly broad. I mean, it's incredibly broad. And her appeal has been absolutely continuous ever since her death 232 years ago. So I think what we wanted to draw out were the elements of her style

that people would still recognise as Marrientonet style, you know, that have really sort of obviously Marrientonet style that they would identify as that. And then look at how those are sort of played with and reinterpreted and reworked and reimagined by different generations. And what we found was that the further you are removed from the original political events, the original historical events,

it becomes a much more sort of playful, mischievous engagement with her legacy. And so in, you know, creative designers, you'll see in the kind of the big finale, you see Chanel Dior Moschino and other big sort of fashion houses and designers who engage with Marrientenet but they all pick up something slightly different and there are really sort of three or four main sort of strands of interest in her

and some of this trope of the glamorous villain some people love to lean into that, that idea of the Wicked Queen like Galliano's dress where he shows her with the guillotine and he shows sort of scenes of her and the tricotters and things like that or some play on the classic elegance of Marrienneette's style because she did have exquisite taste and that is one thing as well that endures

or there is the sort of the playfulness around some of the myths like the let me cake myth as well so we have the the cake gowns by Moschino for instance so I think you know she is the most fashionable queen in history and she's also someone whose style has never has never gone out of fashion and also she's someone who

interest in has never ebbed really you know the fascination of her endures and I think she'd be shocked I think she'd be absolutely shocked, do you? I don't think she'd have expected it at all. I think you're right. She'd be quite perplexed almost. Her aim in life is to do her duty essentially

and to ensure that France remains a republic and that her son sits on the throne of France. Of course, that didn't happen. But in exchange, she has this extraordinary, extraordinary legacy. Well, it's been wonderful to speak to you about it. The exhibition is on at the V&A now. Katrina, Seth, from the University of Oxford and Sarah Grant, thank you very much for joining me.

Thank you. There's just time to read a couple more of your messages about driving anxiety. This one here says I'm 75 and have always enjoyed driving, but was worried that my skills were deteriorating. I found an observer to coach me through my advanced driving test and feel more confident and able to drive in unfamiliar towns. That's from Annie in Worcestershire. Now on tomorrow's program, the multi-award winging win.

even singer-songwriter Annie Lennox. She's been part of the musical landscape for almost 50 years from her days in the tourists, the arrhythmics and then going solo. So now at the age of 70, Annie has brought out a book of photographs called Annie Lennox retrospective. So Nula will be talking to her about her life and her career. You definitely won't want to miss that on tomorrow's programme. But for now from me, thank you very much for listening.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. In the future, will your taxi fly? I'm Greg Foote, host of the BBC Radio 4 show and podcast Slice Bread,

and now Doe. In Doe, we explore future wonder products that might rise to success and redefine our lives. Might delivery drones make popping to the shops a thing of the past?

On-demand drone delivery could be absolutely huge. Will we really let our cars do the driving for us? If you say, The toll driving thing, it's the thing that's only ever meant for humans. That's obviously for the birds. Each episode, I sit down with entrepreneurs and experts to discuss what today's everyday technology may look like tomorrow.

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