Woman's Hour - Drummer Meg Learmonth, Direct selling and women, Anorexia in lockdown, The Other One

Episode Date: June 3, 2020

While the world has gone into lockdown and economies have crashed, one type of business has been seeing double-digit growth – direct selling. Independent consultants for big names such as Body Shop at Home, Forever Living, Avon, Usborne Books at Home and Arbonne have been reporting huge increases in sales and recruitment in response to regular shops closing their doors. But while proponents of ‘multi-level marketing’ or ‘direct to consumer’ selling say it provides an opportunity for women to earn money on their own terms, critics say that the business model sits precariously close to being a pyramid scheme. So what do women need to know? Jenni talks to Susannah Schofield, the DG of the Direct Selling Association; Hannah Martin of the Talented Ladies Club; and Clare from Hertfordshire, who talks about her experience of working in the industry.Meg Learmonth was just 18 when she was appointed drummer for the Stormzy collaborator Mura Masa. She describes how drumming was “love at first hit”, the tale behind her broken foot, touring before lockdown and her part in a 21 day drumming marathon to raise money for the NHS. Meg's 12 hour drumming shift is being streamed this Thursday, 4th June. What is it like coping with lockdown while living with an eating disorder? For today’s Woman’s Hour Corona Diaries, listener Jennie talks about her experience – including how being forced to stay at home has led to her making positive steps towards recovery.The Other One is new comedy on BBC1. It’s all about a girl called Catherine Walcott. And another girl called Catherine Walcott. Half-sisters who had no idea the other existed until their father died. Jenni talks to its creator Holly Walsh and one of the stars taking on the role of Catherine - Ellie White.Presented by Jenni Murray Produced by Jane ThurlowInterviewed guest: Susannah Schofield Interviewed guest: Hannah Martin Interviewed guest: Meg Learmonth Interviewed guest: Holly Walsh Interviewed guest: Ellie White

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 3rd of June. On Friday, a new comedy series starts on BBC One. The other one is about two young women, both called Catherine Wolcott, who only discover they're half-sisters after their father has died. Holly Walsh and Ellie White join us, writer and one of the Catherines, respectively. The next in our series of Women's Hour Corona Diaries is Jenny.

How hard is it to cope with an eating disorder during lockdown? And 12 hours of non-stop drumming for charity. Meg Learmonth, who's 19, describes her passion for her instrument as love at first hit. Now, it feels like such a long time since you were able to pop into a shop and buy anything that wasn't food, drink or medication. But whilst most businesses have been fearing total collapse, one type of company has been growing at a phenomenal rate. It's known as direct selling. Big names such as Body Shop at Home, Forever Living, Juice Plus, Avon, Usborne Books at Home and Albon have been reporting increases in sales

and recruitment in response to regular shops closing their doors. Proponents of multi-level marketing or direct-to-consumer selling say it provides an opportunity for women to earn money on their own terms. Critics say the business model sits precariously close to being a pyramid scheme. So what do you need to know if you're tempted? Well Susanna Schofield is the Director General of the Direct Selling Association, Claire who joins us from Hertfordshire has experience of working in the industry and Hannah Martin set up the Talented Ladies Club. Hannah, how would you describe an MLM, a multi-level marketing company?

Hello. Well, I would describe it, personally, I believe they're very thinly disguised pyramid schemes. In effect, it's like a house of cards. It's a system whereby women join it. You pay to join. Usually you can join for free,

but ultimately all seem to have a system whereby women join it. You pay to join. Usually you can join for free, but ultimately all seem to have a system whereby you need to sell a certain amount of products over a rolling period to remain in and to progress up the chain. And it encourages you to recruit people under you to maintain your place in the scheme and to make money. Susanna, it's nothing more than a pyramid scheme by another name. Good morning. I have to obviously fundamentally disagree.

I think it's a great opportunity for women to earn by selling direct to the consumer. And I think one of the strangest things is a pyramid scheme is where you take money and give nothing back. So the next person who gives money then passes on that money and nothing is there. What direct selling is 100% is exactly that. It is a direct to consumer business where you would sell an item. And the most important part of this is, is it leaves, you are physically selling something and getting a commission for selling that so like you rightly say the body shop at home is doing incredibly well they are seeing huge growth normally a consumer would have the choice to either go to a high street and buy a 4.99 bottle of cream from the shop or they can go to their friend or

consultant in the direct selling world and buy it for £4.99. But surely Hannah has a point when she says you know one person comes in and yes they start selling the product but then they're expected to recruit people to come in behind them and in effect you are creating a pyramid. Well, every organisation has a shape, doesn't it? Even the BBC has a director general and therefore people work underneath it. So I think the difference between the shape of an organisation and the term pyramid selling is really dangerous because there is an element, this industry brings in 2.7 billion pounds a year. There are 563,000 people who are consultants out there earning a living from this. And I think that, you know, 63% of those sellers have other jobs. So this is a

part-time income. It's a side hustle, as we hear used so often. And the average income, this is not game-changing money. £373 per month is the average amount spent, the average amount earned. So it's an extra job. Most people spend no more than 10 hours doing this. It is something that people can earn extra income, where at the moment, where people have been furloughed, they are struggling. This sector is seeing exponential growth, because I think people want to make that money. They want that small added income into their families. Hannah, given your concerns about the structure of some of these companies, why does it attract so many women to it?

There's very good reasons. I just want to come back on one thing, first of all. A pyramid scheme isn't just an organisation with no product. It's an organisation where there's more focus on recruitment than actual sales to the public. So the sales, and it can have a physical product, but most of the sales happen within the pyramid. I would also argue that yes, organisations have a leader and they have levels under them, but in a company you always get paid. In a pyramid scheme or an MLM company, you are basically a rep is an unpaid... Oh, Hannah, we've lost you.

So I'm going to bring in Claire, and we will endeavour to bring you back. Claire, why did you decide to join an MLM? Good morning. Okay, so I joined my MLM business because six years ago I became a mum of twins. And when they were 18 months old, I went, okay, this mum malarkey is fine, but what about me I needed my own identity back and I was looking around to see what was the best company for me to join went to a guide fundraising event and saw a lady selling the product that I sell and I was like wow that's amazing that's just what I was looking at

you know hello how are you type thing and she fantastic, if you'd like to join my team. So I looked at it in a bit more detail with all the information and went, yes, that's for me. Claire, how much did it cost you to get started? So we have three different levels. There's a basic level, a medium level and a higher level. My husband, who's an accountant, said, OK, you can go for the biggest amount. So I did. It cost me £200 to get started.

But that bought me a lot of product to sell and some sales aids as well. We get a free website. So it's all set up for us. How long did it take you to make a profit it for me personally i worked hard um and really got out there with the product and sold it to people um because it doesn't sell itself if you keep it in the cupboard at home um and i was lucky i did mine in six months and what h Hannah was saying about building up a team behind you, what sort of team have you set up behind you and how much do you benefit from them financially

and how much money do they make? Okay, so I have been doing it for four and a half years now. I had my first team member two years ago, so I was quite slow in building my own team. This year, I set myself a target to grow my team, and I've doubled it, so I'm very excited. And yes, I do earn money from the team doing their sales, but I have to do the work too to make that happen.

So I need to be out there actively selling and actively working my own business. And then I do gain a very small percentage retail bonus or my team bonus from what they sell. But it doesn't happen unless I work myself and what I what I love about our business is that it's flexible I can make it as small a business as I want to or I can grow it as much as I want I've made some fantastic friends from doing it and we're all very supportive together lots of other businesses we work together you know do joint coffee mornings etc helping each other sell the businesses so for me it's a great way for networking getting to know other mums and not just being known as that oh there's a lady

who's the mum of twins i am actually known as oh there's a lady who sells da-da-da. Hannah, given your reservations, what do you make of what Claire's saying? A mother of twins, wants to earn a bit of money, has been getting on with it, building a team, and really enjoys doing it. I think that there's nothing wrong with you really enjoying doing something, but I think you have to be realistic about the learning potential and the number of hours you put in and this is often something that's not taken into account um i've spoken to people from many many different companies and they are told by their teams and actually once you're in a team often you're really pushed and bullied to keep your sales up because i describe it as a house of cards because as you progress up the ladder in an MLM you need to have a certain number of team sales under you and a certain number of people under different levels and if people don't make their sales then the people above you lose their bonuses

lose their commissions lose their ranks and there's a lot of pressure on the people under them and pressure on them often to personally purchase and also people say that team leaders higher up in these companies will buy products people under them to help them get the rank they need to keep their rank but you see what what you were saying about comparing it to a pyramid that's not strictly true because the people underneath the the team members, do have their own product, are selling, they are making some money. They're not just way, way down below and getting nothing. Well, actually, they are getting nothing. So there's research published by the Federal Trade Commission in America

and they looked at 200 MLMs and the guy that wrote it spent a year getting to the top 1% of an MLM. And he worked out that 99.6% of participants, on average, in an MLM will lose money once they take an account that's as expensive, which includes the products they need to personally purchase to remain in the system. And there was a court case in america in wisconsin and they looked at the top one percent of distributors at amway and they discovered that that was the top one percent of all distributors their income was minus nine hundred dollars

and when they took into account the products that were consumed or given away as gifts which were required to qualify for commissions and advancement in the scheme once they've been subtracted the net losses were much much higher so susanna that this is not a way of making even a decent salary is it well i i think a lot of that um and you know and that research has done and i've read it myself but it's american and i think there is a real difference. So the Direct Sales Association fundamentally stands for making sure that the consultants and the member companies and their consultants are treated fairly and correctly. And we go above and beyond what has to be done for normal consumer rights. And I think it's really important to make a differentiator now. So when I took over as a director general for the DSA 18 months ago, one of the terms we wanted to move away from was multi-level marketing, because something that's really important in the UK is absolutely don't make money for just recruiting. And that shouldn't be the case.

It cannot be the case because it's not a pyramid scheme. And there are people out there who earn a full-time salary from this. But the majority of people use this as a second job. They work less than 10 hours a week. So it's pin money, really? Is that what you're saying? It can be. Absolutely. But we clearly say, and one of the real keys for the Direct Sales Association and fundamentals, it is an effort based business. If you sit on the sofa, those products will not sell themselves.

And we've seen some amazing innovation over this lockdown time where teams of people have gone out and helped take goods to people who can't because they need to self isolate. They can't get the products they need. There's not the hygiene ability to go out and do stuff and get those hygiene products. And these people have formed that, which is why we're seeing such incredible growth. And I think that's shown the innovation of those individuals putting the effort in to earn the money. But Hannah's absolutely right. It's an effort-based business. Absolutely it is. But this is about empowering women. Just one other point from the Federal Trade Commission. In April, they wrote to various companies, including some of your members, I think,

warning them to stop using the pandemic to recruit. And one example of an ad was, need to earn extra money, find it difficult to pay your bills, be your own boss, message me to achieve financial independence. That's a false premise, isn't it? One of the things that I feel passionately about and why I took the role as Director General is that this is about empowering, not just women, but empowering people to be able to earn their own money and to be able to work flexibly. But we took as a board as as an association we took a very serious um remit to say there was to be no active recruitment this was not a time to go out and prey on people's vulnerability as they were being furloughed and they were one thing that we have as a regulation is that consultants can only talk about their own ability so i have earned and they can then share

that if they want to with their team they cannot cannot say allegedly or I've heard of people. It has to be first person for what they've earned and they can talk about that. We took very, very strong measures. I mean, you know, you can't control everybody. There are employees of companies that go off. So these people are self-employed and it's very hard sometimes to, you know, to 563,000 people out there. But we give a very firm line. We have compliance certificates that people have to do.

And this is a self-regulated industry. And I agree with Hannah and I would welcome to work with her that this shouldn't be a nice to have regulation. It should absolutely be government regulated because actually there will be rogue companies that pop up and make false accusations. But what I think is... Let me go back to Hannah as a final point. Hannah, the women who look to your website for advice, wanting to get back to work, what would you advise them if they said,

I want to join one of these MLMs? I would not touch on the barge pool. I'd like to say that there are several senior people who are in the top five of Forever Living who have been putting income claims out in the last two weeks and appealing people who've been furloughed. And I would like to know what the DSA is going to be doing to target these people. And one of these people is actually an employee of Forever Living, although they do not disclose it publicly.

So I'd like to know, given that they're a DSA member, what the DSA are going to be doing about, and I can send Susanna these proof of these income claims. Hannah, we're going to have to end there, but Susanna just said she'd like to work with you. We will make sure that the two of you get in touch and you can work together. So Hannah Martin, Susanna Schofield and Claire,

thank you all very much indeed for joining us this morning. And if you've been part of one of these MLMs, we'd like to hear from you. How did you cope with it? How much money did you make? Did it pay your bills or not? You can send us an email or, of course, a tweet. Now, some of the UK's best-known drummers

are currently engaged in a 21-day drumming marathon designed to raise money for the NHS. Tomorrow, the drummer who will be at it non-stop for 12 hours is Meg Learmonth. She was 18 and studying in her second year at the London British and Irish Modern Music Institute when she was appointed drummer for the Stormzy collaborator Muramasa. Then came lockdown and a commitment to a long shift on the drums. Thank you. Meg, 12 hours. It must be exhausting. exhausting hi yes it uh it was indeed it was a real test of of uh physical and both mental strength it was it was a real challenge but um i thoroughly enjoyed it it was really really good fun what do your family and neighbors make of it uh my family were very supportive thankfully um i had my partner and my mom actually stay up with

me throughout the whole 12 hour shift 9 p.m till 9 a.m um they were giving me drinks and snacks my neighbors uh i think they were okay we had some last minute technical issues so i actually had to do it in my living room and I'm in a semi-detached house so I used low volume stuff but and uh no complaints yet thankfully not yet not yet how did you begin to learn the drums um it's you you hear a lot of people with really elaborate stories and mine's actually quite quite boring um in my GCSE exams I decided to take music as one of my subjects and I needed to play two instruments and piano was my first instrument and I thought why not give drumming a go and it was a real revelation. I just

absolutely fell in love with it straight away. Was it really love at first hit? It was definitely 100% no question about it it was it suddenly clicked in my brain it was it was love at first hit that's the best way I can describe it. How rare was it to have a woman on the course when you were at the Institute? It's very rare. Drumming especially is a very male, heavy instrument. There's not a lot of female drummers. We're slowly coming out the woodwork and getting the light that we deserve. But at my university, there was was gosh a handful um of other females

on the drums which is a shame but it's getting there how many drums are there then in your set what does it look like um i have a five drum setup so a kick drum a snare drum and three toms. You know, it's not like those massive 80s rock drum kits you see. It does the job, it fits the bill and it's enough that I can express myself. So it's the perfect amount for me. How unexpected was the call to audition for Morimasa? That was very, very unexpected, actually. I got it through my Instagram messages, which I get quite a few inquiries through there

for remote tracking sessions and live gig opportunities, and this really was out of the blue. It was literally, Hi Meg, we have a world tour coming up for artist Muramasa. Can you give us an email? I thought it was a scam at first, but thankfully it wasn't and I'm still very happy with my career today.

You, of course, were on tour when the lockdown happened, so that put a stop to a few things. And how did you manage to break your foot yes um in my day off in amsterdam the band and the crew went go-karting um and i did it once and it was fine and then people were saying let's do it again let's go around again and there was a little voice in my head saying you you know what, I'm okay. I had enough fun on the first round, but it was just the band going to do it. So I thought, okay, I have to. And unfortunately I got in a crash

and messed up my foot pretty badly. And it's still recovering as we speak. It was about three months ago now, so it's still on the mend. But at least your hands were all right, yes? Yes, thankfully. So you could still wield your sticks all right? Yes, exactly. Thankfully, I'm very lucky.

So how did you choose what you would play for your 12-hour stint? Well, obviously, being the new kid on the block I'm with these incredible incredible drummers who have you know played on so many different tracks that are timeless and really quite legendary and I'm a new kid on the block so I don't have as many recording credentials to my name so I thought let's put put my ego aside and let's think about this and think about how I can captivate the audience and I decided let's take the audience on a little journey through the 70s, 80s, 90s up to today. So I decided to put in some iconic songs from people like Stevie Wonder, Earth, Wind and Fire, Wham, Luther Vandross, Primal Scream.

Just all of these incredible songs right until modern day now. Well, Meg Learmonth, thank you so much for joining us this morning. And your shift will be tomorrow. Thank you very much. Now, still to come in today's programme, The Other One, a new comedy series which starts on BBC One this week. Two young women, both called Catherine Walcott, discover they're half-sisters when their father dies. And the serial, episode eight of A Run in the Park.

Now, earlier in the week, you may have missed yesterday's discussion about talking to children about racism and the profanity embroidery group from Whitstable who spoke to us on Monday. If you've missed the live programme all you have to do is catch up. You download the BBC Sounds app, search for Woman's Hour and there we will be. Now over the past months we've been gathering together a series of Women's R Corona Diaries, a unique record of how a huge variety of women have coped during these strange times. Today it's Jenny who told us in her email that a few days before the lockdown she was diagnosed with anorexia. She wanted to be less isolated and secretive and pointed out the irony that a few weeks later

the whole country was forced to do the one thing she had to avoid. She told me how her diagnosis had come about. I'd been poorly for some time, but I'd started the treatment three weeks before the lockdown and that was as an outpatient to attend weekly appointments for therapy and to be weighed. So how has the lockdown affected the way you were being treated? Well, the face-to-face appointments had to stop. We'd just got to a point really where we'd set

our goals my goals and that those goals were to sort of remove the weighing scales from my house and to to try and exercise with people to not be so isolated to try and make exercising a fun social part of life as well as eating and drinking. So when lockdown started, that kind of all came crashing down. It became more apparent that it was best to isolate and to be exercising on my own. I couldn't go to groups and I couldn't meet the therapist face-to-face. So she calls me now once a week

what what about the weighing because I suspect having anorexia means you do not want to have weight scales at home yeah that was one of the first parts of the treatment was to remove scales from the house which I did and then three on, they asked me that I have to weigh myself and submit that weight over the phone, which has been a huge, huge difficulty because I couldn't order scales online. I couldn't even get a delivery slot online to buy any. I didn't really want them in the house anyway

because I didn't want that to become another obsession so I tried to go into a few pharmacies the first one I went into I naively expected them just to let me wear myself um sort of queued for 40 minutes and went in and said hi I just just need to check my weight and they looked at me like I was completely crazy you know like no there's a pandemic that's not and went in and said, hi, I just need to check my weight. And they looked at me like I was completely crazy. You know, like, no, there's a pandemic. That's not essential. And they didn't know, obviously, that I had an eating disorder.

So to them, it was just crazy that this girl was coming in and expecting to be weighed. So I just had to change my approach, I guess, and become honest with people. And a few days later, I went back to a different pharmacy and I just had to say how it was and say that I had an eating disorder and it's really vital for me to submit a weight and I hadn't weighed myself at that point for maybe three or four weeks and they were great they were really kind and let me do that they did a quick risk assessment um for their sake and mine and yes I'm able to do it in a pharmacy. Now this weekly phone call that you get, how helpful is that to keep you on track?

It's life-saving at the minute. It's difficult. I don't enjoy that hour but at the same time that hour of phone call is... I can just say everything that I need to say that's been storing up all week um all the things I used to use to cope you know being with friends um I didn't necessarily talk about an eating disorder but I could talk about general life and everyone's you know what everyone's going through in life and that's kind of disappeared

so yeah the phone calls are really important they they they're keeping me on track and they're what everyone's going through in life. And that's kind of disappeared. So, yeah, the phone calls are really important. They're keeping me on track and they're keeping me focused and keeping the balance. Now, I know your husband now understands your anorexia, but how do he and your son cope with, I think, what they call your issues with food yeah i think the lockdown really put a spotlight on how little i was eating and how they i think they knew there were issues before my husband knew i was seeking help um but everything was really secretive i left the house

in the morning and i didn't see them again till the evening so I could pretty much keep it hidden really well and now it's more obvious but we're able to... I eat meals with them, not the same meals but we sit at a dinner table now which I hadn't done that for years. I would have never been able to sit opposite somebody

and eat for a long time. And we're baking. I'm not necessarily eating everything that we bake, but just being around food in a positive way and enjoying food and having the occasional lick of the spoon when we make cakes is something that I would never have done before. So, yeah, it's getting better.

I know you had anorexia as a teenager, but recovered. Why do you reckon it came back in your 40s? I don't think it was one particular thing. I think lots of things happened. And I think just general life became a little stressful and a little chaotic. I wasn't necessarily feeling that I was achieving very much. I don't have a huge amount of self-belief and something I am really good at is dieting and that's what I've been and that I guess that and running and because I became good at those things that just became something to excel at and get praise for and and I guess that's

why lots of people turn to hobbies you know it's nice to be told that you're good at something it's nice to be acknowledged for putting in hard work and that's what I was doing with my exercise and and dieting I know I know you've taken up painting how helpful is that it's really helpful it's helpful to be able to switch off for an hour a day that's what I'm trying to do I very much living like that at the moment an hour at a time and And that one hour a day is just for me. And it's not exercise and it's not anything to do with food. It's completely different and it's creative. And it uses a part of my brain that I really have missed using for a long time.

And again, maybe I've realized that I'm all right with it. And yeah, it's good it's good good for me so there may be some positive aspects of this lockdown for you yeah definitely i guess eating disorders thrive on secrecy so for an eating disorder lockdown is just the best thing because you know you can you can do everything that you need to do to keep a secret indoors and you're given permission to do that so it's forced me to to face that and forced me to see how damaging the rituals are and and how amazing my family are and how spending time with them and acknowledging how much they need me which I maybe didn't think they did before but they do um that's that's been a real turning point for me and I think the main bit for me is that, yeah, that anorexia relies on secrecy and just coming on here, coming on the radio is fighting against that.

I've never been on the radio and just to be able to say to people that I'm not keeping it a secret, that the only way to get through it is to talk about it and be open about it and not let it hide inside i was talking to jenny and again if you have had experience during this period of an eating disorder do let us know how you've coped with it again you can send us an email or you can send us a tweet now a new comedy series begins on friday night on b BBC One, which is largely an all-female affair. It's called The Other One, and the basis of the story is the revelation after the sudden death of her father

that he not only had a wife and daughter called Catherine Walcott, but had conducted a 30-year affair with Marilyn, with whom he had another daughter, also called Catherine Walcott, and born within days of her half-sister. Well, here's Cathy, played by Ellie White, meeting her sister, Cat, played by Lauren Saoirse, and her mother, Marilyn, played by Siobhan Finnehan, for the first time. Oh, God, that is uncanny.

You two with a spit of each other. Oh. Oh. Cat got his lovely arse, you got his lovely eyes. Oh, God, I loved his arse and his eyes. Oh, thanks ever so much for coming over, Cathy, love. Do you want an energy drink? Oh, I'm good, thanks. I'm trying to wean myself off caffeine. How are you coping with this passing, darling? Oh, really well, yeah.

I've watched, like, every TED Talk there is on bereavement and I'm really rattling through those seven stages of grief. I'm already on stage five. I skipped denial. So I'll probably go back to work quite soon. What's your job? Oh, I work in reinsurance. So I guess in layman's terms, I insure insurance companies. So I basically manage risk.

I actually like to joke and I say, I'm not a risk taker. I'm a risk taker away-er. Oh, my God, I love takeaways. Because it's another thing we've got in common. Well, the young women are far from the spit of each other, both in looks class and character but managed to achieve a bond i'm joined by ellie white and the creator and director of the series holly walsh holly where did this idea come from well i had a friend who told me

about some uh friends of her parents in the 70s who had exactly this happen to them they had the guy had two families and he called one both the both the children were called the same name so that if he ever got stopped in the street and said someone said oh how's Thomas he could just instantly reply without uh you know breaking his stride so I thought that's such a brilliant idea for a sitcom uh and I was also not that interested in this two-timing man. I was kind of interested in what everybody else felt about it. So taking him out of the equation and killing him off early really helped the story.

How easy was it to create a whole series? I think originally it was commissioned as a one-off. Yeah, we did it as a one-off. We wrote it as a one-off. I don't think we expected to get a series. And then what was the joy of it was that the pilot was so fun to make. And I think we struck gold with our cast. The chemistry was so easy and fun to watch that it just became very straightforward to write

because we just knew who the characters were. And that's, you know, any writer will tell you that's like the biggest bit is working out who the characters were and that's, you know, any writer will tell you that's like the, the biggest bit is working out who the characters are. So once, once the actors have bought these amazing kind of, um, 3D, uh, characters alive, we were just, it was just so fun to write really. So Hayley, how would you describe your Cathy? She's the, um, she's the calm one on the surface. On the surface, I think she's definitely got undertones of sort of neurotic and tightly wound-ness.

But she, yes, she's kind of got a very practical approach to life, as you heard in the clip with her, how she dealt with her grief. And I think that's kind of slowly unwound a little bit by meeting her half sister and I have to confess that um I intended yesterday just watching one episode because I knew I was going to be interviewing you both and I'm afraid because of BBC previews thank you very much BBCs, I actually sat through the whole lot. I literally binge-watched the whole lot. And I was in hysterics when Cathy gets obsessed with a spot on the wall

just before she's due to get married and paints the whole wall blue. How did you get the paint off your face, Ellie, when you end up with blue paint all over you? I paint off your face, Ellie, when you had the blue paint on? I think it was water-based, was it, Holly? I think it was a water-based paint, so it came off quite easily. I thought you had it on for four or five weeks afterwards. No, yeah, I did. I was a smurf for a long time. You're like a member of the Blue Man group for a few days holly i know you worked with one other writer pippa brown rather than a team as you have on motherland which you're also responsible for

what was it like just working with one other rather than a group of you you know what was brilliant because pippa also produced it so we really um kept a tight sort of unit and so um Pippa and I get our friends anyway and we we well I just had a baby that's one of the reasons why it took so long to make because I had to have a baby in the middle of it all and so I just passed the baby back and forth to Pippa and because she's such a good friend she just like was so really brilliant with my child so that's um well there was more than two of us in the writer's room there seemed to be three of us with the with the little kid as well so we would just uh laugh and if what we whatever we laughed at we wrote down and then in the sort of later stages

we went through it all and tried to work out what would work and what fitted with the characters and stuff so i have to say writing it was a joy it was really fun and Ellie what was it like to play a character that I know Holly has said is based on her and then be directed by her as to how to play her yeah it was uh you know it was, I felt suffocated. No, I didn't. It was wonderful. You know, yes, I think probably Holly did base some of it on her. But I think with any acting role, you can bring your own character to it as well

and your own ideas. And Holly allowed me a lot of freedom with that. So it was an honor i was overjoyed that someone someone made it so so much funnier than the reality of it that i'm just a very nerdy straight boring person would you would you yeah you made it would you get obsessed with a a mark on your wall to the degree that you had to go out and buy paint? Yes, I mean, I think previously to having children, I would have really worried about a mark on the wall. But now my house has got this sort of about three foot up the wall is just this layer of scum all around the house from my small children. So I can't worry about it anymore.

But yeah, that is completely me. Ellie, though, brought her own neurosis to it so I was I was about to ask Ellie what neuroses of her own she brought to the character oh I don't think people want to know that I don't think people the list is endless um no I'm very laid back I'm very unneurotic i'm incredibly easy to work with what what does having the writer on set bring to the production ellie um i think it i i love being directed by people who've written the show because i think they they know the script inside out they know the characters so well often it works so well with a vision of what the entire show looks like and not just visually but what the characters look like and how they

interact with each other and when someone knows the script that tightly it's it's it's quite inspiring and what difference holly does it make having a predominantly female-led project? I mean, there are a couple of men in it, obviously, but it is predominantly female. Yeah, it was a powerhouse of women, I think, both in front of the camera and behind the scenes. Do you know what? I didn't notice that much difference, I have to be honest. But it just was a really straightforward, smooth-running production, so I think it really doesn't make any difference whether it's lots of women or lots of men or vice versa.

I think that's kind of the beauty of this whole thing is that we shouldn't really be looking at, you know, thinking, oh, this is a male industry or, male industry or this is a non-diverse industry. The more we open it up, the more it becomes normal. And I think that's the important step is opening the industry up, getting more people of colour involved, getting more disability, getting more women in front and behind the camera and just making that more of a priority it is kind of key to this i think i was talking to holly walsh and ellie white and their series the other one starts on friday night on bbc one at

nine o'clock lots of response to our discussion about direct marketing. Anna said it's so hard to make a living from this and yet I keep being invited to join friends and acquaintances Facebook selling pages. I just think no. Barbara said the direct selling company I work with has during the lockdown been free to join. I've loved being able to support local food bank by providing toiletries that cost cheaper than alternatives. As a team leader, I support my team. They are their own boss. Ruth said I worked for Usborne Books at Home part-time for 32 years, retiring last September. I started when my children were small and loved the freedom and flexibility and travel incentives.

As your Lady Clare today, I worked in the same way building my business. The work effort is hard and you need to keep recruiting and training. It is not allowed for team leaders and above to buy stock to make up monthly volumes. Indeed, I know people have been asked to leave for this. The most I earned annually was £10,000, but the extra free books made me more. The be-your-own-boss is not a false message. My daughter is now with the body shop at home. Kate said,

How disappointing. I listened to the discussion on MLMs this morning. How could you conclude with such a biased viewpoint? I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. So the hundreds of thousands of us who love our MLM lives don't count. Danielle said, I'm a mother too, but I didn't feel the need to drag others into a scheme where they lose out in order for me to make money. There are so many other things you could do instead of MLM.

Somebody who didn't give us a name said, just wanted to say, I can't stand these schemes. I can't stand it when you're asked by a friend to come for a coffee and find out they're actually selling something. You feel pressurised to buy something as you're a captive audience. Nightmare and definitely a friendship killer. Oh, and there was a name with that, by the way. It was Anne. Jory said, it's an awful system that involves putting heavy psychological pressure on your friends and family to buy things they don't really want. And then Dolly said, before retiring in the year 2005, I worked exclusively for three MLM companies.

I became a manager of large successful selling teams and my monthly income was at the end roughly two to three thousand pounds a month. I had several team members that also made that amount of money. I had other team members that only had a little bit of time and not a great deal of desire to go out and earn much money so their income reflected their input. Yes, I can confirm that it takes effort, but I was still able to remain at home taking care of three children and my house and I worked the hours that I chose. I did recruit and managed my teams, but the majority of my money came from my own personal sales. I would encourage any woman who needs flexible working hours, And then in response to my conversation with Jenny about anorexia, Peter said, 63-year-old male in car who will admit to being a bit ruffled by Woman's Hour at times.

Utterly moved and full of admiration for the bravery and lucidity of Jenny. All good wishes to her and her family. Anna said, what an inspiring woman Jenny is talking about her anorexia. She was so eloquent. Good luck to her. Then Karen said, I'm 58 and have lifelong bulimia. I'm alone and have autism as well. As you can imagine, it's been extremely difficult for me. I've never had treatment, even though I've asked,

but there doesn't seem to be any resource to help me. People think of this as a young person's disorder. Mine started at 18 and I'm still exactly the same all these years later. Anyway, thank you for highlighting the issues. I find it hard to write well but I just wanted to respond. And Phil said Overeaters Anonymous which deals with all disorders has been supporting me. Lots of new Zoom meetings have been created

and so getting to see and hear many other people from around the country and the world. Women suffer so much from this it's not acknowledged properly yet as lethal and it should be. Thank you for all your

responses to this morning's programme and tomorrow we'll hear from four disabled women, three of whom are shielding on the impact this pandemic and the lockdown is having on their day-to-day lives. Do join me tomorrow if you can.

Three minutes past ten. Until then, bye-bye. Hello, I'm Tim Harford, the presenter of More or Less. And I believe that if you want to understand the world, which is a very big, very complicated place, then numbers are an absolutely essential tool. They're like a telescope for an astronomer, or an X-ray machine for a radiographer.

Numbers answer questions we can't answer in any other way, such as how safe is a home birth? And yes, we check the facts. What are those lying politicians lying to us about this week? So please subscribe to More or Less and let numbers light up your world. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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