Woman's Hour - EastEnders 40th anniversary: A Woman's Hour special

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

As part of the EastEnders 40th anniversary Woman’s Hour celebrates this iconic soap’s track record of featuring strong female characters and exploring some of the most pressing, contentious and emotional issues for women over the past four decades. Anita Rani presents live from the Fox & Hair salon in Walford. The salon is managed by Diane Parish’s character Denise Fox, whose love triangle storyline will be at the centre of the soap’s live interactive episode on Thursday 20th February. Viewers will be able to vote on whether her future should be with Jack or Ravi. She joins Anita to discuss the storyline.Anita also speaks to Kellie Bright who plays Linda Carter, Michelle Collins who plays Cindy Beale and Heather Peace whose character Eve Unwin recently was part of the first lesbian wedding on the show. With two thirds of the soap's audience being women, the executive producer Chris Clenshaw talks about his vision for putting female characters front and centre,, with lead storylines including explosive murder mystery The Six - and he explains how sensitive issues, such as Linda's alcoholism, are tackled with the help of charities and experts. When BBC One launched its first twice-weekly serial drama, on 19th February 1985 and it was based around a solidly working class community set in Albert Square in the East End of London. Anthony McNicholas is a retired academic, reader in communications and researcher on the history of the BBC and Jaci Stephen is the Soap Critic for the Daily Mail. They discuss the original idea for the series, the public service remit and celebrate the Square’s most formidable matriarchs over its 40-year history and discuss their impact. Presented by Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Deiniol Buxton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning we have left the comfort of the studio for a very special celebration. EastEnders is turning 40 and to mark the occasion today we are live from Albert Square. I'm actually walking through it as I speak to you. You can hear an aeroplane flying over actually at the moment. I can't tell you what I'm looking at because no spoilers here, but I can tell you that we think Woman's Hour and EastEnders

are the power couple you never knew you needed. Two-thirds of its audience are women. They champion women-led storylines. They're not afraid to tackle challenging, contentious and sensitive issues. And they love nothing more than a strong female character. Sound familiar? That's what we thought. So a bit of history for you. BBC One launched its first weekly serial drama on the 19th of February 1985, based around a solidly working-class community set in the East End of London. It was to be a public service soap opera. It's had some powerful and groundbreaking storylines

including Michelle Fowler's teenage pregnancy, the first kiss between two gay men on British television, Mark Fowler and Zach's HIV diagnosis, as well as Peggy Mitchell's breast cancer and who can forget Christmas Day 1986 when 30 million of us were glued to our screens to watch dirty Den Watts serve his wife Angie with divorce papers. Right then, I've arrived at my destination. I'm on Turpin Road about to walk in to the Fox and Hair Salon to meet my cast. Welcome! We are here in the Hair and Beauty Salon, Fox and Hair, where I'm joined by my cast. They're all sitting in front of me. Diane Parrish, who plays Denise Fox.

Her love triangle storyline will be at the centre of The Soaps live interactive episode next Thursday the 20th of February where you the viewers will decide whether she should have a future with Jack or Ravi. Welcome. Also with me are Kelly Bright who plays Linda Carter, Michelle Collins who plays Cindy Beale, Heather Pease whose character Eve Panessa Unwin recently was part of the first lesbian wedding on the show and also the main man, the executive producer, Chris Clenshaw is with us. Welcome all of you. Hello. Wonderful to be here. Now we are going to be discussing a variety of subjects to do

with the women of Walford as well as the powerful matriarchs who've stamped their mark on the square and we would like you all to be fully involved as well. So who is your favourite matriarch and why? And why did a certain storyline have meaning for you and your life? Get in touch with us in the usual way. Text the program on 84844. You can contact us via our website if you want to send us an email or you can WhatsApp the program. It's 03 700 100 444.

But to my guests, it is such a pleasure and it's slightly surreal to be sitting on set, I must say. Diane, we're in your salon. Fox and Hair, you've been portraying Denise since 2006. So tell us about how long you've been working here. Yes, it's, I'm in my 19th year. It'll be two decades next year. It flies by in here.

It's like another time zone. When I came in, I thought I'd only be here for a year. And then I got slung out. Five is 11 episodes. And then suddenly one turns to two, turns to three and then you just get on with it and next thing you know you're part of the furniture. But I've loved every day, every minute, every evolution of it. Wonderful and we're going to get into your character and your storylines in just a moment. Heather, your character Eve, Panessa Unwin,

recently part of the first lesbian wedding, she got married to Suki. Tell us about Eve. What sort of woman is she? She's kind of a standalone character, I think. She's fiercely loyal. She's incredibly fiery, if pushed. How did she come to the square? She was married to Stacey Slater in prison, but it was, I really love that relationship, the Stacey Eve relationship, because it's absolutely platonic

and there's a really deep love between them that is this friendship that supersedes everything. And they got married in prison to give Eve an address so that she was safe to release because she can be a nutcase. And yeah, that's how we sort of entered the square. We haven't explored any sort of, not a lot of her backstory yet.

So there's lots of layers to unravel. So already came in with a strong story of female solidarity. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, Kelly Bright, already a friend of the programme. You were involved in our special programme on children with special educational needs and disabilities. It was also a storyline that your character Linda saw her dealing with, with her son's diagnosis of autism. You've had a brief time away, you're about to return tonight. Tell us a bit about Linda. I am. So yes, well, Linda's been off at rehab, finally.

And yes, she reappears tonight. So I'm back in time for all the 40th anniversary celebrations. Wonderful. And Michelle. Michelle, your character, Cindy Beale, made her first appearance on the 10th of May, 1988. So you've been on the Square nearly for as long as the program has. Yes, thank you. I don't want to age or date anybody.

It's amazing. But you're back from the dead. Yeah, like a lot of people in East End, as it seems. You returned in 2023. Yes. So I started in 1988. I left, I think think in 96, came back a year later for six months and then I've been back a year and a half. And a bit like Dai said, I was so nervous when I came back and it was so surreal coming back because everything had changed. And I

kind of knew these faces, but I didn't really know that many people because there's probably four or five people left. But you were nervous. I think that surprised people. I was so nervous. Yeah. I don't know. It is such a big thing for me for 20.

I mean, I don't even know if I could play Cindy anymore. Right. I listened. I hated her voice. I was like, you know, I've changed so much in 25 years and, but you know, it doesn't take long for you to feel at home again and I feel kind of after listen you should never feel 100% totally secure in anything you do but I feel like listen Cindy will never belong Cindy's always been an outsider but I feel like I'm kind of part of

the EastEnders family now and I'm really excited to be back for the 40th. It's brilliant timing. Thank you, Chris Clenshaw. Wonderful introducing the executive producer for me there. Thanks, Michelle. Chris Clenshaw, you've been credited with delivering bold storylines since returning to The Soap in 2022. You're going to step down shortly. Over the past three years, though, you've increased female representation on the show and put women front and centre. Why? Did you come with an agenda to champion women? Maybe to some degree I think. I think I was really keen that while we were incredibly

ground-breaking and innovative with our storytelling, we stayed true to the DNA of the show. And that DNA was established in 85 by Julius Smith and Tony Holland, the creators. And fundamentally, EastEnders is about a working class community. And I speak from experience. I come from a family of market traders. My mom ran a greasy spoon. My grandmother ran a fish and chip shop.

And I think it's safe to say that women are the centre of the working class community. You know, I think they have big mouths but they have big hearts. We hold it all together. Wow. Exactly, the beating heart of the working class culture. So it was about staying true to the DNA that was established almost 40 years ago. Yeah, wonderful. And we've got to discuss the episode, the six. It was a who done it, but also a who is it. The storyline won the award for best soap moment of the year, quite rightly, at the 2024 Radio Time Soap Awards.

Various reviews describe the flash forward scene as chilling, explosive, genre busting and the episode itself is one of the greatest in the show's history. For people who don't know, it was a flash forward to a scene at Christmas where we had six women standing around, a dead body. I know, I laughed. Go on, tell us, why are you laughing? Because I'm just remembering that moment of filming that flash forward and we knew nothing. I mean, we knew nothing. We didn't know. We didn't really didn't have a clue about what it was we were looking at, what we were sort of playing.

We knew nothing about what happened to our characters. Obviously, it was all very much kept under wraps. We only found out much, much later. But I was laughing because I was thinking, God, if I knew when I was filming that, that I was actually going to be the murderer. It would have changed a lot. Okay, well, explain, Chris. So where did the idea come from? And then we'll talk about both your characters, Kelly and Diane, and how you understood what was going on. But tell us about the thought process. Why did you want to do it? Where did the idea come

from? So it was when I took over, we were looking at a variety of storylines and a mix. And I think that's what is key to EastEnders. It's about tonal balance. So you have incredibly important societal led, issue led storylines that are kind of speaking to the heart of the nation. And then you have soapier storylines that are going to shock and intrigue and keep people on the edge of their seats. And, you know, the show has been hugely successful with other Whodunnits in the past and the Who Killed Lucy storyline was hugely successful for the 30th anniversary. So while we were looking for a big kind of murder mystery, a big blockbuster Whodunnit,

we wanted a kind of different mechanism and it kind of evolved from there. And the flash forward was pitched from one of the writers. And we decided then to kind of build it up and it turned into these six matriarchs. I think that was a huge part of the success of the story. It was putting these six hugely iconic, powerful women at the center of that. So while it was, as you say, a whodunit and a whoisit,

and the flash forward mechanism allowed our viewers to kind of come together. I think that was something that was also key, that they almost became a community themselves because they were able to, you know, with whodunit storylines, but because the flash forward scene was in February, so 10 months in advance of the episode reveal, people were able to speculate for 10 months

and come together and share their own theories and share their own ideas and go off on their own little tangents, which was just fun to watch and they had some genius ideas. They were looking for clues in everything. Obviously you knew what you were doing. You wanted to generate that. But were you even surprised by the reaction it got? Yeah, I think it was really key that because we'd set it up 10 months in advance that we needed to kind of provide some twists and turns along the way and deliver something else in that episode.

So I think if we'd just kind of did the one reveal, potentially it would have been maybe a little anticlimactic, but there needed to be a cherry on top. So yeah, we were thrilled with the response. We were thrilled with the reaction. But yeah, as I say, I think really what made it very different to any other who done it storyline,

I think we've done, and maybe across Soaps was the women. Was the women that were the hardest. Yes, all these six women., and maybe across soaps was the women, was the women that got the heart of it. Yes, all these six women. Diane, what was it like getting the script? It was, as Kelly says, it was all a revelation, but in bits and pieces for us, because we were sort of finding out various things as we went along.

Like for instance, I didn't know about my D necklace at that point was gonna end up going down the hole. So if there were things that we did know, we might have imposed those things on what we were playing. So in a way it was quite beneficial to have things unravel as we went along as well for the audience. But it was just the thing of when we did that initial flash forward scene, that promo thing, it was the who done it. And we're all looking at each other like, it's you because you've got blood on it. You've got a bottle in your hand.

So it was a who done it, who is it and what with. And that was the other thing. It was all those things. Exactly. But that's the thing, it was a game for the audience because that participation, but they thought they were cleverer than the show and they weren't. And we gave them a double whammy because I hit Nish with that bottle patient, but they thought they were cleverer than the show and they weren't.

And we gave them a double whammy because I hit niche with that bottle and then they were all like, oh, that's it. And then I went, hold on, hold on, hold on. And then. Yeah, we need to thank you for that, Chris, and to all the writers, because that's proper satisfying telly. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I have to say for me, and I have to thank everyone here that worked on that because we kept that secret. That is extremely hard to do in today's world. And actually, if that had come out before it was aired, it would have ruined the whole thing. So it was really key that that was. It would have been a shame for the viewers. That's what I mean mostly. Yeah. We would have let the audience down. I don't think any of us want the spoilers for... No, we don't.

It's like you wouldn't get a book. You wouldn't get Harry Potter, for instance, and turn to the last page and read it and then go back to the beginning. You want to get there. I bet Heather would. Heather would. OK, that's an insight.

I can always read the last paragraph of a book. Can you, Heather? You read the last page of your script? You don't want to read the whole thing? No, not with the script, no. I know it's terrible, but the thing is, once you start the book, you've forgotten that paragraph. You have.

Only Heather would say this, by the way. How did you know that I would do that? I knew you would. You know each other that well. We've got to discuss how that episode and that murder impacted your characters, because Diane, it really shaped and affected your character's psychosis, didn't it? As it would. Tell us a bit about that. Yeah, I think because, I mean, it was difficult because then I had to plant some things very quickly for myself,

because I don't ever want to do something and not give it the proper gravitas or the weight or the truth that it requires. But then there were a lot of justifiable factors, not just in recent events for Denise, but I think her whole life was leading up to her mental episode there. So of course, the necklace, but being betrayed. But I had to imagine she was in a world where she was very isolated, where she felt very alone and the women isolated her and said, sorry, you're on your own. So there's a panic. There was the impact of events with her marriage. So what I decided to do for myself was to isolate myself

and away from the cast a little bit, just stay in my dressing room and stuff, because we were working quite closely with Mind. And one of the chaps I spoke to there was fantastic. He said to me that from that point of view, everyone else in the world is a wild animal and they're out to get you and you're the only one that gets it. You're the only person that understands. And so doing that, I had to sort of flip things on their head a bit and go, you know, you get this kind of, this real kind of feeling of I am stronger than everybody else. There's a

superpower behind psychosis sometimes. But it was important to get it right. Absolutely. And you do cover on the programme lots of sensitive issues. And I'm sure it's paramount that you get it right. And one of the current focuses is on your character, it's paramount that you get it right. And one of the current focuses is on your character, Linda, Kelly, Linda Carter's alcoholism storyline, following the murder, her drinking spirals out of control. So how are these issues decided, Chris? Yeah, I mean, I think with the sixth storyline,

even though, as I said, it was a kind of high concept, soapy thriller, it was really key that, you know, these are ordinary women that did something extraordinary and therefore it led to actually very sensitive storylines and which obviously led to Denise's psychosis and it kind of brought back Linda's alcoholism story. In terms of how we go about that, I mean we have the writers, the story team, the producers, we have quarterly story conferences and stories are pitched and then we start to develop those and we start to develop them with our research department who

then work really closely with the charities that are associated to those storylines. It's incredibly important that we represent them as accurately and portray them sensitively. What I would say to that though is with Linda's Zalkism story for example, that even though I think Kelly spoke to certain people and it was Linda's story, it was Linda's story that was unique to her. So while we do our research thoroughly and we speak to people that have got lived experience, it has to stay true to the character that we're telling that story with.

How was it to portray that? Hard work. I mean, I love Linda. I love all parts of her. She's a human being with all the faults that we all have and her own demons. And, you know, I think the thing that I, she's been an alcoholic on screen for five years. And through that, there's been many ups and downs. There's been sobriety, periods of sobriety, and then there's been the crashing down of relapse. But I really feel in this last sort of beat

of the story thus far, I will say that, that Chris and I really, really wanted to take her to the darkest place and the most truthful and ugly place that addiction can take someone and where she literally became another person. You know, the Linda that the audience know, that the other characters will know on this scale kind of just disappeared and you were left with this very unwell shell of a human being who was about to die and would have died if she had not seeked help. It was hard to watch and I think what Chris has been doing well is stuff that is very hard to watch but watchable at the same time and I found it really hard to watch your stuff. I mean I rarely watch this or other shows and actually weep for the person, you know, not just my mate.

How do you respond to and deal with the audience reaction? Yeah, I mean I think why it's so potentially why it's more impactful is because it's long-form drama as well because we've, well, because we've known Linda for 10 years. So to go on that journey with her is just heartbreaking. I mean, yeah, we listened to our viewers, we listened to the feedback. We had a special episode of Linda's Just Before Christmas where she ultimately had a decision to make and a choice to make and it was either death either death or to survive and that's when which is she obviously chose to survive and she went to rehab and the day after that episode went out I received an

email in my inbox from a viewer to say that this this is my life and you've saved my life which was just phenomenal and even this week I received an email from somebody that was going through something very similar to what Phil's currently experienced on screen with his mental health storyline. So it's phenomenal that we're able to speak directly to our viewers and yeah, we listen to them and we work with them to make our storylines much more realistic. And all women have their flaws and we're all kind of dysfunctional in our own kind of ways and who wants to see a woman, a perfect woman on teet-feet? Well exactly, we don't exist and that's why we relate because you are giving us a sense

of our own lives. Yes, we're relatable, we're real women. 84844 is the number to text if you want to get in touch and tell us if there is a particular storyline that's resonated with your own lives. Let's talk about bringing Cindy Beale on, shall we? Michelle, stroke of genius, Chris. She'd been gone for 25 years. We all thought she was dead. What happened? A lot. How much time have you got? It's Cindy Beale and she's iconic. And I think, you know, there's a slightly hidden role in soap that if you don't see the body, then you have an opportunity.

And we never saw the body with Cindy. She died off screen. And personally, I thought that was a shame and there was an appetite in the room amongst the writers and the story team. And I think once it got us excited, we felt that it would get the viewers excited. And then I just had the hard job of convincing Michelle to return. I don't know why I laugh all the time because it's just... What did you think when you got invited back? I was quite shocked. I had to stop my car and go to a labour. I was like what? And then Adam called me after and said, yeah did you get a call from

Chris and then you know, to cut a long story short, we had a meeting, didn't we? And I was like, the only way she can ever come back has got to be witness protection. It could be. And of course, when we went to meet Chris with my agent, he showed us the story and I was like, wow, this is incredible. This is powerful. And if he can pull this off, this is going to be great. And obviously, I couldn't tell anyone for a whole year, which was very, very hard.

But it was a big decision for me. I did think, first of all, I don't know, this could probably be the worst decision in my life. But you know what? I'm 60. Why not go for it? You know what? You just like, you kind of need to do things kind of, it was kind of out of my comfort

zone. I was going back to a job and a character I played 25 years ago and that was tough, but I've, I've really enjoyed it. Why is she such a great character to play? I don't know, I can't say. Oh, to play? Yes. It's interesting because Kelly said I really like my character.

I don't know if I really like Cindy. I don't know if I want her to be my best friend. I mean, she hasn't really got any friends. She's only had Geeta and Geeta's gone. You know, I mean, I wrote some some traits of Cindy because it's very it's very difficult. I think a psychiatrist, psychotherapist would have a field day with Cindy. I feel she's kind of had abandonment issues as a child and you kind of what I put, what did I write, put my glasses on. she loves too much, she's dysfunctional, manipulative, insecure yet vulnerable, strong, bold, passionate, fierce, will fight to the end for what she

believes in. She's almost, she's a woman who loves too much. She's sort of portrayed as having all sorts of adverse characteristics a woman could have. Well also I think if that was a man, and years ago, men are demonised for the way she behaves and where it's very different. And she's kind of almost, you know, back in the day when the things that she did, it was, you know, women don't leave their children, oh, they're terrible, you know, whereas a man leaves his children, you don't get the same kind of input.

This is an observation I made about the soap. you said it's sort of societal led, I would say you sometimes, it's almost challenging society. It's, you are kind of, I think you're ahead of the grain a little bit. Yeah I think that's a compliment, so thank you. Yeah I think we have a really talented team of writers and a story team and producers that kind of have got their finger on the pulse. And I think we are kind of challenging trends and representing those. And I think that's part of the public service message, I think, that again goes back to the DNA of the show and why it was created. Heather, we've got to bring you in to talk about your character, Eve, married Suki Panessa on New Year's Day. First lesbian wedding in the show's history.

Relationships been marked by challenges due to Suki's abusive marriage to Nish, who he's often tried to disrupt their happiness and derailed the wedding. Of course. How much have you enjoyed this storyline? It's been, it's resonated with me. I myself have a wife and I think in so far as a love story, I think that the best thing about being done through EastEnders is the time scale. And it's taken as long as it would take in real life,

these two to be together. And I didn't realize I'd enjoy that quite so much, sort of the nuances and the ups and the downs and the backs and the fourths. And I think we wanted to portray a love story because what we have with Soap is an opportunity to change hearts and minds of people who, you know, speaking from personal experience

coming out back in the nineties, you know, there was certainly family members that it would have given them the ick because they'd never seen it do you know what I mean so but but seeing Suki and Eve together I think it's it's it's important to recognize the similarities rather than the differences I this is just two people it's a meeting of souls and anybody can understand that. It doesn't matter that it's two women. And I think given the time and the space

that Chris and the team gave us to do that, there might be a grandma out there who isn't given the ick anymore. And then that's really great. That's, we've done our job. Yeah, absolutely. And you've had to navigate making the story realistic, thinking about the cultural differences and being married

and all of that there's so many layers to this and I think we've only just begun to look at it because it was so heavily involved with Nish actually Sukhi and Eve together other than the actual love and the soulmate ism of it or the the The the fact that they can't be without each other. We actually haven't seen them operate together as a duo yet because it's always had a third wheel. So there's time and we're not there yet but again that's what's great about EastEnders. There's time to do that.

There's time to peel away the... So invested in that storyline. Also, I have to say as an Indian woman, love Suki, love Bal Sepple's character that we have finally got a matriarch who's also a lesbian. It's all happening. Yes, it's great. Chris, I have to bring this up. Some people do say, criticise EastEnders for being too miserable compared to other soaps. The joy is always met with tragedy. What do you have to say to that? Personally I think that comes from potentially people that don't necessarily watch EastEnders. I think the drama can, you know, supersede the wit.

But I think if you've watched an episode of EastEnders, there's humour and there's levity and there's a lot to laugh at. I know that people have been laughing this week. Is it because we're less melodramatic than some of them, I think? Maybe. I don't know. I mean, is that a bold statement to make? I don't know. I think it goes up and down. I think there's some real character stuff and fun moments. I think there's some very humorous characters. I think you're right, Chris. It's probably from people who don't watch it anymore. They're just jealous.

Don't worry, we've got a brilliant montage of some matriarchs coming up. They're definitely going to make people laugh. Chris, thank you so much for coming along to see us. Thank you for having me. And you're going to miss it, aren't you? You've only done three years, you've left your mark. I know, and now he's going. Do you think you might come back though? Oh my gosh, what a question.

I'm not sure, but it's not just me. I've got an incredibly talented team behind the camera as well as in front of the camera. You know, we've got our live episode next week. We've got female writer, five female first assistant directors, female producer. So we've got such talent. So I'm going to miss the people as well as the show. Well, of course, Glenn. Sure. Thank you so much for joining us on Women's Summer.

Thank you for having me. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Well, joining us now on Zoom are Anthony McNicholas, who's a retired academic, redoing communications and researcher on the history of the BBC, and Jackie Stephen, who is the soap critic for the Daily Mail and has been a huge EastEnders fan for the past 40 years. When BBC One launched its first twice-weekly serial drama on the 19th of February 1985, it was based around a solidly working-class community set in Albert Square in the East End of London.

Anthony and Jackie, welcome both of you. Anthony, give us some history. I think we should understand a bit of the history and context of the soap. The idea for the series, what was the media landscape at the time? What was going on when it came about? Okay, good morning. Well, the early 80s was a difficult time for the BBC. It kind of revolved around the BBC was seen to be not competing effectively with the commercial companies with the ITV companies in terms particularly of audience share. And now for commercial companies

audience share means is directly related to their income and via advertising but for the BBC it was a question of justification for the license fee. So if people weren't for the BBC, it was a question of justification for the license fee. So if people weren't watching the BBC, if people weren't, if the BBC wasn't attracting audiences, then what was the relevance to the country and therefore why would people, why should people have to pay the license fee? So for the BBC, it was, it was, it was a very important political issue, really, the audience, the audience share. So they decided to rejig BBC One in particular, which was the popular channel. And EastEnders was part of that. It was an attempt to reengage with the popular audience.

The BBC didn't want to be seen only as catering to an elite audience. Jackie, you've been a lifelong EastEnders fan. What are your early memories of it? Well, I just arrived in London to try to make my fortune as a TV critic. And up until that point, I think the most exciting thing I'd done was to go on location with Sooty the glove puppet. That's pretty exciting. Don't knock it! He wasn't very talkative to be honest. Not chatty enough am I like him?

So I was absolutely desperate to watch something interesting and different and I remember the first episode of EastEnders and thinking yes this is breathing new life into popular television it It was entirely different. And as a critic, I adored it. Reminders, give us a brief reminder. What was that first episode? Oh, God. I know it's good. I'm 65 years old. I can't remember.

Someone died at the end. I remember that. I remember that. It was at the beginning. At the beginning, yes. They interviewed people on the news. And a lot of the public was saying, oh, it's not like my local in the real East End. And oh, if only they'd done something that was, you know, they'd come to talk to

us. But of course, it was drama first and foremost. And, you know, the critics absolutely loved it. The audience was quite split, but it's soon gone a lot of interest and 40 years on who can argue with that? What's one of your favourite standout storylines? We've discussed a few of the sort of current ones, but what through the decades has stood out for you as really powerful? I think probably Sharon Gates, when Sharon was married to Grant and she slept with Phil the brother and Grant sitting in the car listening to a tape that Sharon has accidentally recorded.

By the way, they have so many accidental recordings of things. You know, turn your machines off people. It's never going to end well. It used to be baby monitors in the old days, didn't it? Oh yes, yeah, they've still got some of those. Even when there's not a baby, there's a baby monitor recording. Anthony? He had a branch in the car, his tears merging with his snot, it became a river of external liquids for Grant. But it really, really felt for him. And that whole brotherly thing is very interesting now coming back to the 40th. Grant comes back in tonight's episode and they're brothers who have got

a relationship. But all of their relationships revolve around a particular set of women. It's usually Sharon, Kathy, it's the same people who keep gravitating towards them. And I think that what Chris has done brilliantly actually, I think he's my favorite, well he is my favorite East Enders producer ever, what he's done is remember the past and he keeps bringing in these threads. So what you have is a continuity of emotion. It's not a storyline that happens and then it's ended. Chris goes back to discover the history of all these people and that's why these women are suddenly, I think, much more interesting because they all have histories that I think Chris has really exposed very well. Absolutely. Now, Anthony, you mentioned at the time that when it came about and it was to kind

of reflect society, but also society, millions of us watched it. I mentioned the 30 million that watched the Christmas Day episode when Dirty Den handed Ange the divorce papers. You've got to say Ange. Sorry, everybody. I was really trying to rein in not doing my Cockney accent, but it might come out. The viewing figures are huge, but then there was backlash, wasn't there? Mary Whitehouse, who didn't approve of it. Anthony? No, she didn't approve of it at all. Amongst a lot of people. I mean, say that the first episode, if you remember, the reopening scene started with a death. There was an old man who died by himself in his thing, in his living room. there was an old man who died by himself in his thing, in his living room.

And the story that really caught the public's imagination was Michelle Fowler getting pregnant, being made pregnant as a young girl by Dan Watts, by Dirty Dan. And so that was both, you know, a great soap story, but it also raised social issues of teenage pregnancy, of relationships between non-equal relationships between older men and younger women. First gay kiss?

The first gay kiss. There was, again, with her story, the question of you know, the question of contraception for young women and whether or not how much their parents should know about their private lives and how much in control of their own lives they were. And so that created huge public controversy. And the controversy, I think, added to the appeal of the human story that was being told on the screen as well. And so, you know, so very quickly

the audiences became much, much larger than the BBC ever expected they would be. Incredible. It's what you're talking about, Heather. You know, it's kind of challenging people's preconceived ideas. I think it is. I think, you know, people operate out of fear of the unknown, but as soon as there's representation and people see themselves, for people to see yourself represented but also for you know in this case you know non-lesbians to see women together. And also working-class people on TV it was probably the first that actually

featured and working-class actors because they weren't and and all women of a certain age because they weren't and all women of a certain age because they weren't represented enough on TV. You had a few sitcoms and, but to me, it was like kitchen sink drama. It was very raw. Yeah. Sorry, I was just going to say in our house,

you know, my family are all from the East End. And up until that point, there wasn't anything that was out there representing them. Jackie? Sorry, I was, I drifted off there. Oh, thanks Jackie. I thought you'd gone back to the cast. We're talking different here. I'm just going to look at my notes for a minute.

Wait up Jackie. We were just talking about how there was nothing quite like it, working-class kitchen sink drama. There was no question here, I just wanted your impact on, because someone who's been watching a lot of telly, particularly Stenders, Michelle and Kelly were just commenting on how it's a proper working class kitchen sink drama for the first time we were seeing. Set South.

Set South, yeah, there was Coronation Street, you know, absolutely. I hadn't really watched that much television really until the 80s when I started to do it for a living but I came from a working class background so I was seeing things pretty well represented in EastEnders. It wasn't a new thing for me. I remember the day when my parents got the potato peeler, the electric potato peeler, god that we were celebrating in the street. So I didn't know, Is there an Electric Potato Peeler? I could do a whole woman's hour programme on the Electric Potato Peeler. We will come back to Electric Potato Peeler.

Actually, I want to read some of the audience messages because a few people are getting in touch with us. 84844, by the way, is the text number. And someone has said here, I felt discovered, I first discovered the show in the mid-80s and became addicted, especially to the den and and relationship. My friend Caroline and I made den and and badges of their faces and more than proudly. That's from Simon, who's an ex-Walthamstow boy.

Sue Oakley says my first job at the BBC was in the drama department. My office was next to that of Julia Smith, creator of EastEnders, created by a woman. I remember meetings between Julia and Tony Holland, her co-creator. Julia Smith was a formidable female figure. And another message here says, I'm an EastEnders mega fan. I have lived in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Ukraine. My biggest treat when I get back and I'm burnt out is to binge EastEnders and feel at home again. Now the role of the matriarch has been integral to EastEnders since the very beginning, dominating the heart of many storylines so we're gonna hear from some of them in

a moment, cannot wait to play you this. It all started with Lou Beale, the trailblazer for Walford's matriarchs with her traditional values, morals and beliefs, her daughter Pauline Fowler, mother of Mark, Michelle and Martin. Then we've got the chain-smoking, Bible-quoting Doc Cotton, who was usually found in the launderette. Succy, mother of the Panessacan, who ran the family business while husband Nish was in prison. The Slaters, one of the biggest families housing some of the soap's best-loved characters, including Stacey, Jean, Kat and Zoe. So let's hear some of their memorable moments. In the old days, your behaviour would have brought shame on this family.

Pregnant while you're still at school, can't even bring the culprit to face the music or his responsibilities. Lead a young, sensitive lad up the garden path and finally to the altar. And all in the name of Miss Independence. Oh no, Michelle Fowler can't be like her mother and her mother before her. Yes, don't you worry, we'll be all right, this poke little house with three generations falling over each other. Four if you count the one that's on the way.

Go back to your office and write up your files and where the hell have you been? You've been out on that ruddy bike again, haven't you? Do you know, she seems to think that getting pregnant's the only thing to have in a baby. She's spending a fortune on that bike. I mean, never mind tell us who the father is. When's he going to pay his whack? That's what I'd like to know. But don't worry, it'll be all right. As long as good old dependable Pauline keeps struggling along. I don't say this often enough, but I've got best husbands in the world. They're not on the banners

does Jim and he don't look. You're looking well grandma. Well your grandfather spoiled me. I was expecting a bed and breakfast he'd only gone and booked a four-star hotel. You know I've worked hard all my life proudly well nothing else for it but I could get used to a life of luxury, being weighed down and and for it. Jim, would you get me cardigan? You shouldn't be exerting yourself. Used to running around after you lot. And now I can't even cross the street.

At least I got to see you. When's your next hospital appointment? My friend to come. If you want me to. I've done a lot of thinking these last four years. I'm not the woman I was. I don't expect us to be doing each other's makeup or hitting the shops together.

We've never had that relationship. But you are my daughter and I am the only mother you have. And you be good for Nanny Jean, okay? You do as you're told. Because Mummy's got to go away for a little bit. But you know Nanny Jean, she's not going anywhere. I promise.

A few months. There's nothing in comparison to the rest of your life. Love you, Stacey Slater. I love you too, Mum. You're not going to Spain, are you, Stan? Why not? Because I said so, all right? And after everything you say, do I?

No, you can't tell me what to do! You ain't my mother! Yes, I am! Classic EastEnders, wow. Absolutely. Jackie, we first heard Lou Beale there. Did she set the bar for the Albert Square Matriarch? I think she set the bar as a miserable harridan, and then Pauline followed in that particular genre.

But I think that the role of the matriarch has changed considerably over the years. And again, we learn much more about their backgrounds and why they became the women that they did. And we've got, I think Suki is really one of the more interesting matriarchs. You look at what that woman had to bring it up with. How many people has she got dead in the family now?

I think it's about three. You know, her husband, couple of kids. The husband's complete psycho. And she's managed to be a lesbian in the middle of it all. You have to hand it to the woman. You know, she's a matriarch who can take a lot on her plate. And I think also we've got a new one now with Harry's wife, who I think is really exceptional

because she's playing the men at their own game. She's sharp, she's a bit of a gangster, she's got involved with the whole drugs thing with Ravi and I think that we're now seeing a transition again to an even more powerful woman and it fascinates me that in life we have all these questions all the time, what is a woman? Find out what a woman is, what she's tenders. There you go. Anthony, for you, who were the matriarchs, who were the powerful ones that stood out for you? Well, I liked Lou Beale. I thought she was of her time and her views were of her time.

She was of an older generation to most of the cast. But then her daughter, Paulie, I think had an awful lot to put up with over the years with Arthur and his various trials and tribulations. And of course, Michelle and then Mark, you know, Mark with his, when he became sick with HIV. So I think sort of for me me it's Lou and Pauline. She was what held that family, like all the women in this program, the women hold their various families together. All the families revolve around them.

Diane, you were nodding when Anthony said that. Yeah, because one of my favorites, I've said that I've got two. One is Ange, the other one's Lou Bill. Yeah. Because Lou Bill, I'll never forget sitting in that armchair. She was always in that armchair in the house. That was a throne where she sat and she just took the world to rights. But, you know, here we are as women and we do assign terms and names to women, especially women,

as Michelle put it so kindly, of a certain age. Phil isn't the most cheerful person in the world, but we don't use words like Harrodon. We don't have words. We don't have the same words that we use for women. Lou was tough because she had to be, because she came from the wash house and she was from that generation.

And I related to Lou because I come from a matriarchal family and in the Caribbean, a lot of families are very matriarchal and women are strong. And what I've always admired about this show is it was the first with real, true diversity. Yeah. Real diversity. And my being here now, this long, is testament to that.

And how important is it? It's very important. And it's a challenge and it's work, because you're pulling people out of their comfort zones, because some people sit at home and they wanna watch what's familiar to them and we're giving them the unfamiliar. But also it's London.

Unless you live in the East End, I was gonna say. It is London, that is London. It's made up of many different cultures and creeds, religions, and those things can come together, blend and they can clash. And this show is been fearless in showing those things can come together blend and they can clash and this show is it's been fearless in showing those things. Absolutely. I think we should hear some more voices, some other strong female characters. This is going to really make you smile and we're going to hear from

Zeynep Khan who escaped her violent partner Yusuf. I mean it's going to take you through a gamut of emotions this this one. Linda Carter, whose husband, Mick, ran the Queen Vic pub, who had a baby with Max Branning. She's now struggling with alcoholism. Pat, whose colourful history with men and marriages put her at the helm of the Butcher, Evans and Wicks clan. And of course, there's Peggy, mother of the infamous Mitchell brothers, Grant and Phil, arguably the best known East Enders matriarch enjoy this. Shame! You dare use that word to me? You talk about shame when you can do this? This to

your own wife? Look at me. Look at me, Yousuf. Look what you've done to me. You've destroyed my life. Why, Yusuf? Why? You're an evil, deranged man. You're sick. Yeah, I'm done with the booze, Caff. So you say. No, no, no, I mean it. No, if I say I'm gonna do something, then I do it.

Linda, I could smell it the minute I walked in here. I'm so glad you popped by. Go and get a coffee off someone else, I'm going to bed. No, just wait. I'm not having you standing there accusing me. Well, someone's got to. You almost confessed to Karen. Yeah, but I didn't, did I?

Like I said, I've got it under control. Oh, what, by running off with Alfie? Oh, oh, oh! You and Stacey been yapping, have you? Well, I'm not going. All Oh, what about running off with Alfie? Oh, oh, oh! You and Stacey been yapping, have you? Well, I'm not going. All right, so just back off. I'm his mother! And don't forget it!

After what you've done to him. You think you're his mum, don't you? And Kevin's. All that proxies rotted your brain. Do what? You think your mum's for the old bleedin' square? Think they respect you? They feel sorry for you because you're nothing

but a worn out, dried up old egg. Ah ha ha! Well you listen to yourself you stupid fat old tart. The only thing Frank Butcher wanted from you was sex. Oh, well let's say you're right then. Could that be because he wasn't getting enough at home? Get out of my pub! Poem for reference, that is Peggy Mitchell Phil's mum. The greatest Mitchell matriarch who will ever exist.

It's like the worst. You know, when you, have you ever done that where you hear yourself on a voice note that you've left accident, you know, you accidentally press it and you go, that's not me. Anyway. Anyway. Yeah, but anybody who thinks that there isn't comedy, it's all there, intense drama, and but just like proper working class women. Character, they also like to see women slap each other on each other's tenders. When I first came back, all people talked about was the slap between Gathy and Cindy.

They love it. I've got to read out some of the messages coming in from the audience. You'll enjoy these. I just wanted to say to Heather that Heather and Bal are fantastic and as a lesbian woman in the same age bracket as Eve and Sukhi, it's so refreshing to see their beautiful relationship. Bridget says, I found out I was expecting my first child on the same day Pauline found out she was pregnant with Martin. My baby is 40 years old. How time flies. But did you name the baby Pauline?

That's what we want to know. Hello Anita. And EastEnders cast. As a loyal viewer from day one, it could be said that EastEnders saved my life. In a bad marriage that was controlling, which was not a recognised thing as it was so long ago, and getting her stomach pumped helped me to get the same help after I took drastic measures back then. So thank you to her, the writers and all the cast over the years that I am still here. It's powerful stuff. What do you think when you hear things like that, Kelly? I mean, I'm very lucky. I feel like I have been blessed with very, very, a couple of

really, really important, hard-hitting stories over the years that I've been here. But I think the power lies, and we have sort of touched on this, in the fact that it has been running for 40 years. You will never get the same relationship with an audience that you will if you're in a fantastic series even, because it's on for a finite amount of time time and you have an arc as a character, it has a beginning, a middle and an end. I'm in the middle of Linda's life like I'm in the middle of my life, I hope. But essentially that's its power.

That is its power because we have the time to tell these stories and the audience really invest in people that they've known a long time. Yeah, well you become part of our families, don't you? Michelle, you recently said TV isn't great for women of a certain age, but soaps are. Why? Because women of a certain age have voices and there are stories out there. And, you know, with, again, Cindy's affair, people would be so used to seeing a man having an affair. But when it's a woman having an affair, again, I said, it's like, oh, no, she's, you know, and people say, oh, is she a villain? No, I don't think she's a villain. I really don't. I mean, she has vulnerabilities and, you know, and I think

a lot of women have also said, great, that a woman is having, is, you know, enjoying that kind of whole thing at 60 whatever Cindy is. And I think it's really important that our voices are out there and our stories. Well, it's exactly what we've been saying, that sort of shifting of perception, that actually what is the, you're kind of setting the moral of it. It is changing in drama now. Drama is following suit with the likes of Sarah Lancashire.

And you know, it is slowly happening, but it's been happening here for 40 years. And that's- I remember it used to be called the gray area and actually by agents and casting people used to, you entered that grey area now. I know. It's true, it's true. You stop being the love interest. That's absolutely right.

So you hit your 30s, you'd have to wait. Mother or grandmother. Yeah. There's a whole like 40s wasn't it really? Well, let's talk, Diane, let's talk about your storyline because something very exciting is happening for you. Denise's love triangle. How are you feeling about this? The centre of the live interactive episode. This is the first time in the show's history that EastEnders viewers will be able to cast the vote to influence the outcome of your story. So we're asking them who should Denise's future be with, ex-husband Jack or lover Ravi?

Tell us about the two men. Well tell us about what the attraction is. Well one was her husband, one was her husband Jack and they've got a history of their children. They got together I think because of the circumstances in their lives. I think they were attracted to each other but very quickly got into the domesticity of their relationship which happens with couples and then you sort of lose each other. You become sort of passing ships, you know, in the night. And then, you know, obviously with teenagers, there is, as I know, that very difficult, turbulent period with teenagers

where your life isn't about yourself, it's about them. It's about the things they're going through, their issues. So they had all of that and Denise felt unseen. With Ravi, he dovetailed in just at that perfect time when she was feeling like she should be frisky but she's having to sort of like, you know, pack teenage lunches and go to hockey matches and so he came in and said you're attractive and saw her. Then obviously there was the awful bits in between said, you're attractive and saw her. Then obviously there was the awful bits in between. But they're two very different men.

Denise does seem to have a track record for men a little younger. But we love it for your character. Yes. We do, do we? Are you enjoying it? And why not? Why not?

And why not? Why not, absolutely. And the thing is, like Michelle has said, I mean, there is ageism. It seems to be almost forgiven and okay, the ageism, because nobody, nobody that I know of has yet said anything about older men with younger women in the show, even this week, in the way that they say things about women with younger men. And he's not a child, by the way. But it's about attraction.

Everybody's got their sort of limitations on what's right for them, what's wrong for them, what they would, they wouldn't do. And people can say some quite distasteful things, but it challenges an area that people need to challenge. And I think Michelle as well has had that. Yeah, all of you to some extent. In the same way that I sort of name-shout, you know,

Eve and Suki's characters together and how important Suki is for me personally. Yes. Your character, to have you at the centre of this storyline, it's not just about a woman in her 50s, but it's a black woman in her 50s. Thank you for saying that. And it's really important. in her 50s. Thank you for saying that. And it's really important. It is really, really important.

I've been here a long time and it hasn't happened in this way before. I think in terms of being seen, I think that's what Chris has done. He has just done it based on what you can do, ability, history, what you can offer to the show. And that's what you hope for. That's what I always hoped for in my career. I started out doing Shakespeare. I started out doing theatre. Nobody asked me whether I was black or not black or whether I should be or shouldn't be in that role. I played, my first ever job was playing Ariel in The Tempest.

So it shouldn't be questioned in a place like this. We're in the East End, but that's what I've loved about Chris. He has just given me stories, not thought with a color pen first. He's just gone in there and done it. Oh yeah, he's well and truly part the system. Yeah.

I mean, he's done all four of those things in front of me. I've got to ask Jackie, because you're a lifelong fan, Jackie, who do you think Denise should be with? Well, Jackie's for me, so she can't have him. Oh, wow. I don't know. I don't know. Jack and Jackie's got a ring to it.

Well, there's this, Ravi was a drug dealer and also obviously spends so much time on his hair. He's got no time to work. How can my family have sex? His hair is still perfectly intact. Because he really might be got such beautiful hair. Ruffle it up a bit Denise, we want to see more of that. Wonderful.

This woman is getting more sex than most people have in a lifetime. I wouldn't call it a new local bike, but Peloton are talking about taking shares in her. Oh wow, Jackie! And on that note, I think we might have to wrap up. I mean, just wonderful. We've thoroughly enjoyed this. Jackie, thank you. Anthony, thank you as well. And thank you to all of you for joining me. Kelly Bright, Michelle Collins, Diane Parrish and Heather Pease. And that's all from us at Albert Square.

Oh, I must tell you that the live episode, you can be watching the live episode. You've got to follow the hour long episode. It's going to transmit on the anniversary on the 19th of February. To access the vote, you must have a BBC account. You can register for bbc.co.uk slash account. Join me tomorrow for more Woman's Hour

where I'll be joined by Hayley Atwell who's playing Beatrice in Much Ado About Nothing with Tom Hiddleston as Benedict but from us at Albert Square thank you, thank you! That's all for today's Woman's Hour, join us again next time. This is Danny Robbins here, host of Uncanny, with some exciting news to share. The Uncannyverse is getting even bigger with a brand new Uncanny TV series on BBC2 and iPlayer featuring some frankly terrifying cases that will make your hair stand on end. But then we will be taking an even deeper dive into these stories with Uncanny Post

Mortem, a new visualized podcast straight afterwards on BBC2 iPlayer and right here as audio on BBC Sounds. Expect spine-tingling new twists and some chilling revelations. That is Uncanny Post Mortem. Join me if you dare. I'm Sarah Trelevin and for over a, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.