Woman's Hour - Ecofeminist Vandana Shiva, how to quit well, Fay Weldon

Episode Date: January 5, 2023

The author and environmental activist Vandana Shiva has released a new book, Terra Viva to coincide with her 70th birthday. She joins Anita Rani to discuss her life campaigning for climate justice and equality.Eleanor Williams, a 22 year old woman from Barrow-in-Furness, who claimed she had been trafficked by an Asian grooming gang has been convicted of perverting the course of justice. Her false Facebook post about being trafficked and beaten was shared more than 100,000 times and led to protests in the local area. The North of England Editor for the Guardian Helen Pidd has been following the story and has interviewed some of her victims, Helen joins Anita to discuss the case. New year, new job? Today we discuss the art of quitting well. Anita is joined by Mandy Dennison Director of Engagement from the International Federation of Coaching UK, and Karen Danker from Women Returners, which helps women returning to the work place after an extended break.In our series Finding My Voice we’re talking to women about the moment they realised they had something to say or stand up for. Moud Goba fled her home country of Zimbabwe at the age of 20 due to harassment she faced over her sexuality. She is now the Chair of the Board of Trustees for UK Black Pride and has spent over a decade helping other LGBTQ refugees and asylum seekers to integrate into their new communities. She joins Anita Rani to discuss how she found her voice as an activist once she was finally able to express her sexuality freely. We hear the Woman's Hour archive from 2015 following the death of novelist Fay Weldon.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Emma PearcePhoto credit: Kartikey Shiva

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. Do not look at your calendar, it's not Friday, it's definitely Thursday. Whilst Emma's away on maternity, I'll be steering the mothership on both days. Anything can happen and it's very nice to be here so a change to 2023 and today I want to ask if you're contemplating a change when it comes to your job at least are you considering quitting your job it's a new year maybe it's time for

something different did living in lockdown and working from home make you reconsider your job options have you thought of your strategy of how to walk away? Are you going over the conversation you could have with your boss on repeat in your mind? Or have you done it already and finally quit? How did it go? Was it a smooth exit with all relations kept intact? Or did you well and truly burn every bridge and future employment possibilities? I want to hear from you this morning. Share your quitting stories with me. Was it a huge drama? Did it go according to your plan or was it a complete disaster? Did you finally work up the courage to tell your boss what you really think of them and feel great or did it not work out quite that well for you? Whatever

happened, I would love to hear. You can text me. It's 84844. The text will be charged at your standard message rate. you can contact us via social media it's at bbc woman's hour you can email me through the website and you can also send me a whatsapp message or even a voice note if you fancy and the number is 03700 100 444 which you should save in your phone under woman's hour then i'm also going to be joined by eco-feminist vandana Shiva. She'll be here to discuss her new book and her thoughts on protecting seeds and standing against the appropriation of agriculture by multinational corporations. And we continue with our feature

on finding your voice. Women who discover they can take a stand for something they believe in. And today I will be speaking to a refugee from Zimbabwe, Maud Gubber, who went on to become a leading voice for LGBT asylum seekers and refugees and chair of the trustees for UK Black Pride. But whatever we talk about this morning, your thoughts and opinions are always welcome. That text number once again, 84844. But first, Eleanor Williams, a 22-year-old woman from Barrow-in-Furness who claimed she'd been raped and trafficked by an Asian grooming gang, has been

convicted of perverting the course of justice. Her false Facebook post about being trafficked and beaten was shared more than 100,000 times and led to protests in the local area. Helen Pitt, who has been with the Guardian's North of England editor

for the past 10 years and covered the Rochdale and Rotherham grooming scandal, tweeted that it was one of the most unusual cases she's ever covered in her 18 years as a journalist, with far-reaching consequences for the local community. Well, Helen joins me now to discuss this further. Welcome, Helen. You described it as one of the most unusual cases you've ever covered. Why was that? I think it was the most, one of the most unusual, if not the most unusual,

because of the scale and scope of the allegations that Eleanor Williams made, and also the sophisticated way in which she went about framing innocent men by manipulating social media. And particularly what is unusual with just one court case is these far-reaching consequences for Barrow. It led to a real culture of fear among particularly the Asian community in Barrow. It led to a reporter from the local newspaper being advised by the police to leave Cumbria because she was receiving death threats. It's ruined innocent men's lives. It's really quite, it is really quite astonishing. And it is astonishing. I'm sure some people have been reading about it this morning. So let's get

into the details a little bit more. When did you first come across the case? I think like a lot of people on Facebook, it was during the first lockdown in May 2020, when somebody sent me a link to a post that Eleanor Williams had put on Facebook. It was horrific. There are pictures that stayed with me, and I still think about now, of her with black eyes. Her little finger looked like it had been severed. She was covered in bruises, and she accompanied it with a long post which said this is the hardest thing I'm ever going to have to write. People have been asking me,

you know, why do you have all these bruises? And I tell them that I walk into door frames, but the truth is that I've been a victim of trafficking. And she claimed that she had been beaten up by three men who'd forced her to have sex the previous night, and that she was speaking out in order that others wouldn't suffer in the same way. And it kicked off this kind of domino run, which, as I've already said, had huge consequences for Barrow. And what was really unusual is it sort of prompted a global solidarity movement. There was a Facebook group called Justice for Ellie, joined by more than 100,000 people. You could buy Justice for Ellie merchandise, which was based on the symbol of a purple elephant, like her favourite animal. There was a point in 2020 where every other house in Barrow had a purple elephant expressing solidarity in the window.

You could buy wristbands, hoodies. And then at the same time, I still can't quite believe it. What she hadn't mentioned in this Facebook post was that two months previously, she had been charged with perverting the course of justice after making false allegations against a series of men, one of whom I think we're going to hear from him, Jordan Trengove, a teenager from Barrow, had spent 10 months in prison on remand after she falsely accused him of rape. And he was only released from prison when police checked out his alibis and realised that all was not what it seemed. So on the one hand, you've got 100,000 people who are supporting her online, the whole of the community got behind her, but there is another section of the community

that was being treated very differently. What happened in Barrow? Yeah, so although in her viral Facebook post, Eleanor Williams did not name any of the men she was accusing, rumours quickly spread. There was a sort of hit list which spread on WhatsApp and Snapchat, which named certain people and certain businesses. Very soon there were curry houses that had their windows smashed. There were Asian Muslim restauranteurs who were spat at in the street. I spoke to one guy who was followed down the street by two thugs who poured alcohol over his head. The local MP has told me about how Asian doctors from Furness General Hospital in Barrow were coming to him to express fears for their safety. It was absolutely horrendous.

There were innocent people whose marriages broke up because they became falsely implicated in this scandal. Now, as you've said in your own words, this is a complicated story. Can you explain what she was accused of and found guilty of? Yeah, so the charges were eight charges of perverting the course of justice. And those charges related to making false allegations of being drugged and beaten and raped by three young white men, one of whom, the first charge related to when she was only 16. She'd gone to a house party in Barrow and she later accused kind of a friend of hers, really, of raping and drugging her. Then she went on a night out in barrow with jordan trengo who i've already mentioned he was 18 as well at the time

and then subsequently made three false reports against him um and then there was this sort of what really captured the public attention was not these white guys she'd falsely accused it was the idea of an asian grooming gang and she um she alleged that there was a local businessman a real man called Mohammed Ramzan in Barrow who runs ice cream vans used to run takeaways and Indian restaurants she said that he was the ringleader of like a European network of traffickers and she said that he had groomed her from the age of 12 or 13 and had taken her and dozens of other girls that she named to locations around the UK. So Blackpool, Morecambe, Lancaster. But also she said that he had taken her to Amsterdam where she said that he had sold her. It's almost unbelievable. He had sold her to the highest bidder at an auction in a brothel.

She said that he had taken her to Ibiza. And, you know, I attended a lot of the 13-week trial, and it seemed relatively easy for the police to find out that she was lying. For example, with the Amsterdam Amsterdam story where she said Mohamed Ramzan had taken her there Ramzan said well I was in Barrow all of that time and his bank card showed that he was in B&Q in Barrow and her sister had to come to court to give evidence for the prosecution to say well yeah she was in Amsterdam I was with We planned it. It was her 18th birthday treat. I shared a room with her. And I think I would have noticed

if she'd been kind of spirited away to a brothel. But then in defence of the police, like, why did they believe her? It's because, you know, if you look at the pictures of her injury, she was turning up in strange locations, half naked sometimes, intoxicated, black and blue. And she was a young woman. She's still a young woman. Of course, they had a duty to investigate.

Of course, of course. And you mentioned the Mohammed Ramzan. You actually interviewed him. It's in The Guardian today. Tell us about him and the impact it's had on his life. Yeah, so he's a 43 year old businessman. He's very well known in Barrow. And as I said, he wasn't actually named in the original post, but soon he found himself kind of number one on the hit list. There were people who threw bricks at the windows of the interior shop that he runs with his wife. People were spitting at him in the street. They were calling him a paedophile. He had at least 500 death threats. He says that he tried to kill himself. That's true of the other young man I mentioned who went to prison on remand for this case. He had an absolutely horrendous time. And he was quite, it was fairly easy for him to disprove the allegations. For example, the allegation that

he had taken her to Ibiza. Well, he's never been to Ibiza. His passport's never been to Ibiza. And when the police said to Ellie Williams, all right, well, Ibiza, we'll check the flight records. She changed her story a little bit then. She said, oh, well, maybe it wasn't quite like that. And then when she appeared in court, in order to explain the discrepancies in her story, she says that she's been the victim of a kind of violent grooming gang for six or seven years, and that she was frightened of them and that they made her lie. Do we know why she did it? This is the big question. And it's the question that everybody wants to know. No, we don't know.

We don't know why she did it. I mean, there are a lot of people. And I think I count myself among those, actually, who thinks something bad has happened to this girl, I think. You know, we heard in court that social services were involved in the family. She was reported missing by her mum 32 times. There's things that don't quite add up for me. Like why was she found half naked with no knickers on,

on the Millennium Bridge in Lancaster, black and blue? Like what was she doing on trains on her own? Was she a victim of county lines, for example, sort of trafficking? Now I'm speculating here. There is no evidence that she was caught for that. And on Tuesday, after she was found unanimously guilty, it only took the jury three and a half hours, which is a very short time for a 13-week case. Talk turned to the sentencing, which will take place in March, and they were discussing psychiatric reports. You know, she was deemed fit to stand trial. This was a big question at the

start, you know, is she psychiatrically ill? And the answer was no, she was deemed fit to stand trial. This was a big question at the start. You know, is she psychiatrically ill? And the answer was no, although I think she's got PTSD. And the prosecution sort of said, well, maybe one line of investigation would be looking to see if she has something called a factitious disorder. We used to call it Munchausen syndrome, where people pretend to be ill or injured in order to garner sympathy. But I just don't know um it's it's like you say it's very very complicated and very difficult we can't speculate as to what's happening here you're just reporting uh what you've seen and you have really been at the heart

of this uh and you've been at the heart of a lot of cases in the north. You were there for Rochdale. You reported on Rochdale and Bradford and a lot of these grooming gangs. And it feels like she lit a spark under underlying simmering racial tensions by coming out and making these false accusations. But we discuss rape and women coming forward to be able to report what's happened to them and not report what's happened to them here on Women's Hour quite a lot. And the difficulty here, Helen, I'm sure you'll agree, is that people will remember her case and they'll remember her name. I just wonder what the impact of this might be on women being believed in the future with rape convictions being so low as they are already. I think it's hugely detrimental. And this was something that Cumbria

police were really worried about at the time. You know, they carried out, along with the National Crime Agency, a year-long investigation into her claims of a grooming gang, and they weren't able to substantiate them. And they were sort of looking on in horror as people were sort of looking at Ellie's story, joining the Justice for Ellie Facebook page, pouring out their own stories about being groomed and trafficked and saying, but I'm not going to go to the police if I'm going to end up in the dark. And the Crown Prosecution Service

has kind of come out and said really strongly that this is a very unusual case. They will always listen to people who are making allegations. And it is so unusual for somebody to be prosecuted for making false allegations. But the scale of this case and the number of lives that she ruined and the consequences of her actions meant that the Crown Prosecution Service felt that they had no option other than to bring a case against her. And, yeah, we know how pitifully low the rape conviction rates are. And I've interviewed, well, they're women now, but girls from Rotherham, for example, who were not believed.

And they were taught they were kind of criminalised. They were called liars. And it would be such a shame if this case kind of undermines their stories and the ordeals that they went through. So I think it's got really it's got kind of societal ramifications, this case, like way beyond Barrow. Yeah, I just want to repeat some of the figures. I know we talk about them a lot on the programme, but I mean, the rate of false rape allegations in the UK, it's around about 3%.

In England and Wales, less than 1% of rape cases result in convictions. Less than 1%. We know this because we repeat them, but it's worth repeating them often because they are so low. Rape conviction rates in the UK have fallen by 2% recently. And over the past four years, rape prosecutions in England and Wales have fallen by 70%. Yeah. And I think one of the real difficulties with sexual offences and rape is that often it's

one person's word against another in a closed room. And who do you believe? One person says there was consent and one person says that there wasn't and that was not the case here um you know jordan trengove the young lad who spent 10 weeks in prison on remand his alibi is is unbelievably strong which is that the night the first night that she said that he raped her he was actually picked up by police in Barrowtown Centre for having an argument and he was with another girl who took a selfie in the police van and that was put in the jury bundle so the jury saw this, there's a picture of him in a police van that night. She's now awaiting sentence, what will we expect to get, what will she expect to get? It's hard to tell, she's been on remand

for quite a bit of the last two and a half years since all of this kicked off. She's still only 22. She was 16 when some of this started. So, you know, they will take into account her age. But the fact that I think she's going to have she's certainly going to have more time in prison as a result of this. We'll have to wait and see. Helen, thank you very much for speaking to me this morning. I'm sure we'll be coming back to that story. Now, new year, new job. Today we're discussing the art of quitting well. Have you quit a job before? How did it go? Did your boss greet the news well or did their reaction leave a bad taste?

Sometimes leaving is just the right thing to do but how do you do that without destroying everything you've worked so hard for? It's risky, too, especially at a time when the cost of living is higher than ever. With me to discuss this is someone who, in her own words, didn't leave in the best circumstances, but has now turned her life around and helps others to think through the process. Mandy Dennison. Mandy is Director of Engagement from the International Federation of Coaching UK and Karen Danker from Women Returners which helps women return to the workplace after an extended break. Mandy, Karen, welcome. Mandy I've got to come to you first please tell us what happened how disastrous was this quit?

Well good morning at the time it felt just my life had ended. But actually, it very quickly became a very positive thing. Sometimes you reach points in life, I call them pinch points, when the pressure just seems to build and you get to a point that you feel that there's nothing that you can actually do that's right. Surviving on very little sleep because of work, because of menopause, lots of pressure. And you just think, I can't keep doing this. I can't keep doing this. When there's not a huge amount of support around you. Yes, there's support at home. But once you've left home and you've gone into the workplace and you just feel that everything is against you and going wrong, it gets very, very difficult. So I just reached the point that I thought, that's it.

So what did you do? And I walked out the door. What was your job? At that point, I worked in secondary schools. I had quite a senior position. So as well as teaching, there was lots of other work and roles and jobs that you had to do so it was it was quite high pressure so talk us through that day very briefly did something well I went yeah totally I went in in the morning I had a meeting with some of the other senior leaders I would say morally there was a bit of a disagreement and it was like well what do we do

and I said well I know what I'm going to do. I quit. And they said, well, if you're leaving, you leave now. So I picked up my bag and walked out the door. And that was it. And then what happens when you sit in the car? Do you cheer? Do you scream?

Like, just what's the next emotion that came? Well, I sat in the car and I thought, oh, my goodness me, what have I just done? And so I actually rang my boys who were both uh one had just started uni one was um in the later ages of sixth form um and they were like well you've not been happy for ages so yeah get on with it so I was like oh right I better get on with it then so uh as I drove home, I was thinking, well, what am I going to do? And that's the time that you think, actually, there's quite a lot that I could do. There's a lot that I want to do.

And maybe this was actually the kick up the backside that I needed to go and do it. And it was, wasn't it? Because it was a life changing experience. You're doing something completely different now. Totally. I mean, I'd used coaching a lot in my teaching career, supporting younger colleagues and colleagues moving into sort of junior management roles and so on. And I'd used it with sixth formers and so on. So I'd used coaching a lot.

And I love people. Laterally, I'd spent a lot of time looking at data and spreadsheets. And I thought, no, it's actually people that I like you know an excel spreadsheet can be a beautiful thing but it's not the same as talking to a person so I thought I can really do something with this and so coaching seemed the obvious answer so I went and got some more formal coaching qualifications set up a business and never looked back really. I'm going to bring Karen in here because Karen there may be people who are listening to this and maybe they're inspired by Mandy's story and think right tomorrow this is it my life is changing. Maybe they could be have some practical advice about what they might need to do steps that you could take if you do want to begin that

conversation with your manager or your boss about leaving yeah good morning um hi there and a very human story i think for mandy and one i think which will resonate with with lots of us so i think um practically where you can if you can try to take the emotion out of the situation so um when something happens at work and, you know, you feel highly charged to try and get some space from that, you know, go out for a walk, grab a colleague with you, download and process what's just happened so that you don't react in the moment. And how can you create that distance to think through what you might want to do? How do you not react in the moment? I mean, that in itself needs some discipline and some training. Yeah, I think it's about sort of calming yourself down and trying to

say, right, I need some space and actually voicing what's going on in your head. I mean, I think, you know, it's very, it's very normal, very natural for us to feel upset in the moment, but to kind of realize actually what might feel good to say right now might not serve us more half an hour down the line or in the longer run so just just sort of say i need to get a break i need to get some space i'll come back to you um and to create that space to think about actually what does this mean for me what could i do is there an opportunity to try and come back and talk about it when I've had some chance you know it's in time to think about a different way how

we could resolve this together but I think you know if you can get that time to talk about it great if you still get to the same conclusion that actually this is just not the right place for me it's not a good values match then leaving well is really key um and to try and you know have a a good considered conversation with your line manager at a time when you've had that time to think and reflect um and to try and leave in the best way so you know give the required notice notice finish strong um you know really do a good handover succession notes take the time to thank people and i think the key thing is not to burn bridges um because you never know when you're going to come across current colleagues again in a future role when you're going to need a recommendation or a reference so i think it's that piece around yeah this has been a really

tough situation what can I learn from that? This is all very good advice, but what if there is, you just don't get on with your boss. What if the relationship is quite toxic or you feel that you've been bullied or you've been treated badly? How do you manage that? Well, and this is for both of you. Karen, what do you think? Yeah, I think the key thing is to seek support. Don't try and manage this on your own so try to get support from somebody independent within the organization

whether it's from HR whether it's you know if you're working in in the environment where there's a trade union representative or if you have a professional association seek support seek advice there's lots of brilliant organizations out there that can provide support for different issues, whether it's Citizens Advice, ACAS, National Bullying Helpline, if it's around maternity rights, places like Pregnant and Screwed, Maternity Action, there's lots of great organisations out there that will, that have helplines that can give you really good advice to navigate that. And I think, you know, recognise that this is going to take a toll on you so also get support personally from friends and family from your GP if you need it if you feel like it's having an

effect on your mental and physical health get that support to really help you navigate that I think is my first the most important you know step to take. Yeah Mandy I think it's interesting that you got in the car and the first thing you did was phone your sons because they are your support. So you had your team back up to cheer you on and say, don't worry about it. But if you had done things differently, what would you have done? I think with hindsight, I might have taken a bit of time off just to think about it. But actually, so much had led up to that point. I'd done a lot of thinking and reflecting and

talking things through so I actually think I possibly wouldn't have done anything terribly different I think for me that was a key thing sometimes financially it's not great but you recover life goes on and I think it's an awful lot of things is about looking at the positives we talk a lot these days about gratitude I call it looking for the positives there's always something good that comes out of what you're doing so you just have to keep looking forwards don't look backwards not too much sometimes yes you need to reflect and think about what you've done but it's then about looking forwards recognizing this is the place that I am in, this is where I'm at, so now what happens next? If we spend too much time looking backwards then we kind of get stuck and as a coach one of the

things that we do is help people to get unstuck and so a lot of that is about looking forwards, thinking well what are my values, what's important to me, what are my beliefs? I think it's a good thing to work through what are the different perspectives that a situation has, because we only see the world as we are. We don't see the world as it actually is. So we have to open our minds to the idea there are different perspectives. And when we see those different perspectives, that opens up a whole world of opportunity. It takes a certain level of empowerment, doesn't it, to even decide that you make a decision to leave a job because you say you know sometimes we're just so in it people are so unhappy in the job they can't even find the capacity to see that

there's a world beyond it absolutely and that's where the different perspectives come in um i mean through my life i've spoken to an awful lot of people about that sort of thing. And it's simply about helping them open their eyes and see what else is in the world. And that, as I say, that comes back to, well, what's important to you? What actually matters to you? And are you actually spending any time doing the things that matter to you? Because if you're not, then something's not quite right. You know, we talk a lot about balance and work-life balance. I don't think it's about work-life balance. Some people need to work long, long hours. Some people don't. It's about what's

important to you and what makes you tick and what makes your life tick. So it's opening that view. And once you can see that view, you can choose, well, which path do I actually want to take? Well, Alice has been in touch who's listening and says, I'm 34 and have two children. I quit my intense city job in November after coming to the realisation that the environment was toxic. Not only this, but also realising it's impossible to have it all.

High powered, high pressure job, balanced family life and happy, loving relationship. Trying to balance it all was impossible and started to significantly impact my mental health and happiness and children. I made a snap decision to leave my role and pause my career and the sense of self-relief was overwhelming. I'm working my notice period and plan to leave well. Not sure what will come next but I know I need a break and then I hope I can find a role that demands less of me that I can learn to say no and make time for myself. Sounds like she's definitely taken the power back. If you want to send us your message about quitting, please get

in touch 844 number to text. You mentioned there about, you know, not maybe this isn't the right time financially. Well, with the downturn in the economy, rising food costs and energy bills, it's not necessarily the best time to leave a job, is it, Karen? What would you say to anyone who feels they need to leave but can't afford to? Yeah, I think it's a very real situation that lots of people will be in. I think, first of all, I would say reflect on why you want to leave your job first. You know, if it's about the role, then perhaps could there be a different role that you could do in the organisation? Can you speak to your line manager but my manager or other people in there about different things you could do that would actually make your day-to-day better um if you've explored those opportunities and there isn't then i would say stay in your role keep earning money but also at the same time plan your exit strategy at the

same time so think about what is it that you do want to do what is it that you enjoy um and start to explore that start to speak to people use your network think about any upskilling that you need to do that you could be doing free courses in the weekends or in the evenings uh think about building that experience so that you can make more of a uh a sort of transition into your next role and you won't have that gap um um another message here from someone from paul who says um the notion that hr is independent of employment is completely false very often they're representing the business yes they will deal with welfare issues but at the end of the day they're an arm of management and should be viewed as such and a great one here best advice

i was given was to realize that if your employer didn't need you anymore they wouldn't think twice about terminating your contract. So don't worry about doing the same, says Jenny. What about that one, Mandy? I think that's very true. None of us are indispensable. However, we are to ourselves and we are to our families. And that's where the strength comes in.

It's recognising that every single person on this planet has got some potential. So it's about working to your potential and not somebody else's agenda. And as Karen said, plan your exit strategy. And that's where coaching can be really, really good, because as I said before, it's about perspective and seeing what options there are. But it's also it is that point about you are actually a really important person. And so if you're not happy, then you need to do something about that. And it might take you one day.

It might take you one year. It might take you five years. But every single person deserves to be happy. So it's about finding a way to live a life that's true to you. Because if you're happy, your family will be happy and everybody will prosper. Mandy, you're giving some really good advice. and I'm sure it's inspiring lots of people listening but I want to know about the relationships and the bridges that you burnt when you walked out of that teaching job and said I quit on that day. Yes you know we're talking to you later you've got

this successful career you're able to give people great advice about how to quit well but what about those relationships that you left behind did you get back in touch did you rebuild those bridges or can you never do you cross the road when you see them in the on the street no I never cross the road when I see anybody um there are a couple of bridges that are probably permanently burnt but it's quite surprising how you think you've maybe damaged things but in a lot of ways you haven't damaged anything and an awful lot of people after I'd walked out the door gave me a lot of support people that I hadn't thought would give me some support gave me support so actually in my particular case there weren't many bridges that were burnt but that's not to say that my case is

the same as anybody else's and I think it is important to try and keep as many relationships as you can because you meet the same people on the way down as you meet on the way up but it's amazing where support does come from a lot of people stay very quiet in the workplace and they sort of watch and listen and learn but they don't necessarily stand up at the time. But afterwards, it's amazing how much support you can get. Interesting discussion. Thank you both, Karen and Mandy. Lots of you getting in touch with this one. I've worked for the NHS for 34 years.

The last three years have been the hardest and the relentless pace has been exhausting. In September, I finally decided I needed a break and the only way to get it was to resign. My line manager was extremely understanding and supportive. She suggested taking a career break instead. She didn't want to lose my skills from the NHS. That's nice. I wasn't, I also wasn't ready to end my career with the NHS. So I've just started a year's sabbatical. I have no idea what I want to do and I'm not rushing to fill my diary. I'm taking a rest and enjoying catching up with friends and family, says Carrie says Carrie Carrie it's very nice that you're listening to us on 10 a at 10 a.m in the morning instead of being at work it's nice to have you and Steph says I'm unable to leave well in some senses because I've called out the bad behavior and it's gone down like a lead

balloon however it's gone well in the sense of me feeling proud and strong and so very relieved I'll deal with the mortgage somehow 84844 is the number to text if you want to tell us about how you quit your job, whether you did it well or otherwise. Love to hear from you. Now, my next guest has been described as one of the world's most prominent radical scientists by The Guardian newspaper.

Vandana Shiva is the recipient of numerous awards and has founded organisations and committees across the world to promote equality and climate justice. She's also written more than 20 books detailing her various struggles against big corporations and how feminism aligns with the fight against climate change. Now she's got her new book out, Terra Viva, a memoir of her campaigns, which is being released to coincide with her 70th birthday. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Vandana. Lovely to have you.

First of all, two months into being 70, new book out. How do you feel? Well, I feel the same Vandana Shiva that was a 20-year-old active in Chipko that was a little older doing my quantum theory. My body might have aged, but I don't think my mind has and my heart has gone longer. Wonderful to hear. There is so much in this book that I'd like to talk about, but I think we should start at the beginning. Let's understand a little bit more about you and who you are. You talk about growing up in post-partition India how do you think that period and and the choices

your parents made or had to make influenced your activism yeah post-partition India was of course independent India independent of British rule but the last thing the British did to try and divide us up was actually draw a line which they never completed in Kashmir. And I got a book called India Divided, which tracks these uptrendments to divide Indians into Hindus and Muslims, and then to Pakistan and India. And the reason the conflicts don't get resolved is you don't create lines. They're a sure way to make conflicts permanent. My mother broke every grass ceiling in her life,

most highly educated in her community, became an inspectress of schools in what was unified India, then became a refugee. And when she came back to India as a refugee, she said, well, I've done everything. Now I want to be a farmer because it's the highest vocation in life.

And in a way, that's what I've done with my life, done my quantum theory, did my nuclear physics, done my particle physics. And I realized farming is the highest vocation. Like you've just mentioned, you did do all of those things. You went off like a very good, overachieving Indian woman, daughter, and studied science to the highest level.

And you were doing your PhD in quantum physics. So why did you decide that your future lay elsewhere and with farming? Well, I didn't go to do my quantum theory as an achiever. You know, achievement has never guided my life. Seeking, learning, becoming a more full human being is what guided me. I just wanted a better understanding of the world. But I'd got involved with CHIPCO in any way. And I was coming back in every vacation, summer, winter, doing my PhD at the Western Ontario University on the foundations of quantum theory and non-locality. That, you know, there was a time when I was doing academics, you had a whole discussion in the show of people who left their jobs. You know, I left academics

in 1982 and created the Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology because in my short period, I'd realized that a six-month study for the earth and for people did much more than publishing and publishing and publishing

and publishing papers. So when Ritu Men and my publisher insisted I write on my understanding of the links between the violence against nature and violence against women, and wrote Staying Alive, I told her, but you know, I stopped writing, I stopped publishing. She said, but writing can be a subvers this program. We did a partition special. And I think it's interesting that it is a woman who encouraged you to write your first book, Women Championing Women. And she also insisted during the lockdown period on writing Terra Viva, my movement biography, which has been published in UK and USA by Chelsea Green. So yeah, I can help know, the things you don't automatically do because there's so much else that your life's direction is taking you to.

And, you know, writing is a propulsion I've had from Ritu Menon. Starting the Earth University is a propulsion I've had from Satish Kumar of the Schumacher College. So, you know, there are these gentle nudgings that come from people who, you know, who bring a new dimension to your life, which for you is not important. And I'm grateful. I'm grateful to my teachers. I'm grateful to my publishers. I'm grateful to the women of Chipco and the rural women who still teach me and the earth who's my permanent teacher. Well, let's talk about the women, because you do this in the book.

You list a lot of people who have fought alongside you for climate justice and the people you have learned from in your various campaigns. You've mentioned Chipco a couple of times for our audience. What was the Chipco movement? What is it? And talk about the women who are at the centre of it. Well, you know, in the early 90s, 70s, when I was going to Canada to do my PhD, I just wanted to visit my favourite forest and do a little trek. And this forest I'd gone to trek in had gone. It'd been converted into orchard plantations.

And streams that came from the oak forests were starting to dry up. This big river in which I used to swim was now a trickle. And that's when I heard about Chipco. And I took a pledge that every vacation I will volunteer for Chipco. The Chipco movement was women coming out to wake up the world that the forests were not timber mines. They were the source of water. They were the source of soil stability. One of the most important sacred towns of India called Gojoshi Math, just before Badrinath, is slipping and sinking today. People are being evacuated because they're building highways,

they're building dams, not caring about how forests and the mountains hold the mountains. And so Chipko engaged, I think it's the most creative action. I hope some of the UK ecology movements will take more inspiration from Chipko. Because what is Chipko? Chipko means to hug. Women understood the links between the forest and the water and their livelihoods. They also understood the impact of destruction. But most importantly, the imagination was so creative.

They first organized together. Hundreds would sit in the forest to block the logging. And then they said, we will hug the trees. Chipko, the embrace. The embrace with limitless love is the most powerful force in the world to stop destruction. The original tree huggers. Let's talk about what's happening in Britain then, because Extinction Rebellion has recently announced

that they're going to change the way they protest against climate change. They're calling it a shift away from disruption that focuses on relationships, not roadblocks. Is that a step in the right direction, do you think? Well, you know, if we were to take lessons from Chipko, and I've taken those lessons and shaped, you know, whether I'm saving the seeds, I'm doing a Chipko of the seeds, whether I'm working with my sisters in Hopal who are resisting the, who are resisting the injustice that carries on today when the pesticide plant of Union Carbide leaked. I think the most important part of resistance is for it to be creative and for it to be nonviolent. To be creative means out of what you say no to.

There must be a growing of what you say yes to so it's yes to life and no to the poisons and the destruction and the fossil fuels and the emissions um the second part of any real creative resistance is just as when you really know what the state of the body is in true medicine, you know, they just feel the pulse. And I have been treated by doctors and you just feel the pulse. This is Ayurvedic Indian medicine. Ayurvedic and Siddhanyanani and all of those. You have to feel the pulse. And I think because of the Cartesian-Baconian understanding of knowledge, which came from England, from Mr. Bacon, who was the chancellor, who was part of the witch hunts, who tortured women and the peasants. He thought by

torturing nature, you will have more. No, torture and violence is not the source of knowledge. Partnership and co-creation is the source of knowledge. And I think the UK movement is waiting for a new resistance based on regeneration of the earth. That while you say no to the poisons, while you say no to poison, start the garden. Do you think the pandemic has changed how people engage with nature and the challenge of climate change? I think not uniformly. You know, some people have gone into a permanent panic mode and they're panicking on everything and they can be manipulated in their thinking about anything. And other people have realised where does health come from?

Where does immunity come from? Where does solidarity come from? Where does food come from? And the growth of the organic movement in UK because of the pandemic was amazing because more people woke up to the fact that at the end of the organic movement in UK because of the pandemic was amazing because more people woke up to the fact that the end of the day, immunity comes from the soil and the plants and the diversity you eat and the health of your soil is what makes your body's immunity work. And that's why the interconnectedness that Chipko understood at that time, they call it ecological services and

functions. At this time where there are those in power who would like to see farming without farmers, food without farms, the end of nourishment, they're not realizing that for 30 years of poisons, chemicals, 30 years of ultra processed foods have given us on the one hand climate change, 50% climate change is rooted in industrial globalised agriculture and given us 75% chronic diseases. Now, what would a diet that kills the earth and kills our gut microbiome do to our bodies? So I do hope the pandemic is much more of a learning of resilience, immunity, regeneration, and those are the potentials that we need. I want to go a bit further afield. As the home of the Amazon rainforest, Brazil is one of the countries at the forefront of climate politics. And just this week, the new president, Lula de Silva, appointed two indigenous women to ministerial positions as environment minister. How significant do you think these appointments are and what influence do you foresee them having? Well, I think both the appointments are very important. I have worked very closely with Marina Silva while she was an environment

minister in Lula's last presidency, and she reversed the destruction of the Amazon. She invited me to write the framework laws of biosafety, of the indigenous knowledge, the laws against biopiracy. I remember going over the Amazon with her, and she pointed out the illegal Cargill port from where the GM soya comes to Europe. And Marina is very important, both because her background is in the Amazon, but she's a true ecologist.

She's a true feminist. And we are at this point where the three teachers, you know, everyone talks about the transition, but no one's talking about the transition to what? To more industrialism, more reductionism, more mechanistic thought, or a new regeneration of the ecology of the mind and the biodiversity of the earth. And both the new appointees are important for the three regenerations we need. Learning from nature, nature as teacher, nature as intelligent, indigenous people who've always thought that way,

whether it's the Pachamamas or the Gayas or the Vasundras, the different names, and the third, the women. So in a way, the two new appointees are the ancient wisdom you know being held in them and we should give them all congratulations and all our solidarity and let's just have more of that everywhere for the people who are trying to hijack the climate hijack the biodiversity convention and financialise nature for generating 4,000 trillion of fictitious money. Fandana, I've got one last question because there's so much, we need to do a big special with you at some point, but there's so much we could talk about.

You are taking a stand against big corporate agriculture and you do upset and ruffle a few feathers. Where do you find the courage? Well, part of the reason I've been able to be critical of corporations is because they didn't exist in my land. They'd all been thrown out when we became independent. The BPs were thrown out. The commercial banks were thrown out. And because we've had an experience of a sovereign India, the role of corporations to me is so clear as colonizers.

Why am I critical? Because they're getting into what should be in our hands, our food, our seed, our lives, our land. And where do I get the strength? From the earth. And from women, from women who are, you know, earth keepers. They know they're not separate from the earth and they don't want to be masters. They just want to be loving, caring members of the earth community. Vandana Shiva, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Your message is still coming in on how to quote Vandana Shiva there.

The book is called Terra Viva. It's out now in conjunction with her 70th birthday. Maria says, re-leaving a job. What hasn't been mentioned is the importance of gratitude for having been able to earn a living from the employers just left. It allows doors to open and lessens the sense of anger,

hurt and worry about the future. That's a nice way of looking at it. Now on the programme, we have our next guest in our series, Finding My Voice. This is where we talk to women about the moment they realised they had something to say or stand up for. Today, I'm joined by Maud Gouba. Maud fled her home country of Zimbabwe at the age of 20 due to the harassment and discrimination she faced for her lesbian identity. Over two decades later,

Maud is the Chair of Trustees for UK Black Pride and the National Manager for the organisation Micro Rainbow, which supports LGBT asylum seekers and refugees. Most recently, she managed the integration process of LGBT people who arrived in the UK from Afghanistan. And she joins me now to share how she found her voice. Welcome, Maud. We're giving you a platform to use your voice. We want to hear your story. Oh, thank you very much. So you left Zimbabwe in 2001 when you were just 20. What was life like before then as a Zimbabwean lesbian who grew up as a Christian in a country, I think, along with 67 other countries that criminalized homosexuality. I suffered a lot of discrimination. I lived in fear of persecution. I suffered a lot of harassment.

So this is one of the reasons why I made a choice to leave, because I certainly faced a lot more dire situation. I would not have been able to leave freely. So this was one of the reasons why in the end as a young person I chose to leave Zimbabwe and I chose to flee. It's a huge decision. Were you able to talk to anyone in your family? Were you able to come out out to anyone I came out to some members of my family which didn't go really well and you know it ended with me being uh pushed towards a forced marriage and that was not for me so I did not come out to all members of my family in the end that was when I knew I had to leave. I had to make that choice to leave. Like I said, at the age of 20, such a big decision. And then you arrived in the UK as a student. You hadn't been able to be freely open about your sexuality in Zimbabwe. What was it?

What was the shift like? What was it like when you first got here um it was both a shift of good shock you know arriving in the uk i loved the freedom i simply could not believe that gay couples would be so free to be even affectionate um in public without fear of arrest or beatings or don't sort of look around to see if there are any disapproving faces or if someone would be coming to push them around for doing that. So it was a good shock. And then there was also another culture shock of now realising that I didn't know I was black until I arrived in the UK. You're coming from a black majority and then suddenly you're a minority.

And also being an immigrant and an asylum seeker, that is, at that time, I think people are more aware now of what a refugee is, what an asylum seeker is. But back then, people were not aware of such things. And there's such a negative stereotype of asylum seekers. And for me, it really was a serious shock. It meant living in poverty and living with other refugees in home office provided accommodation and that in itself came with, you know, homophobia from other refugees who were either from my home country or from the same cultures. It meant people were praying for me or asking where my husband was or asking if my partner was my sister and at times it meant

you know going back into the closet after having you know enjoyed this side of freedom so it meant like living in different parts of myself like you know I really felt that intersectionality of being a migrant being a black woman being a, you know, it was it was great. And being gay. It sounds I'm just processing your whole story, Maude, whilst you're telling me it. I've read it, but hearing it is very different. I can't imagine how difficult that must have been. On top of that, you've left your home country. You've left everything you've known. You've left your family. You've left your friends. And here you are having to live. And you didn't get you didn't get your refugee status granted until 2010, and you weren't able to work those nine years either.

I wasn't able to work. There was that challenge of proving yourself as well. I think many people just have this misconception that asylum seekers don't want to work. I was a very talented young person. I was very very confident and forward and I knew what I wanted to do but you know asylum seekers are not allowed to work you have to wait you don't know when your interview is coming and at that point also I realized that it wasn't a case of just going to say you know this is the the persecution I experiencing, this is the challenges I'm facing, and I need safety. It was also proving yourself.

How do you prove yourself? But for me, I was lucky enough to have a background in activism. You know, I joined UK Black Pride. I had the support of one of the founders, Phil Opoku. I had participated in London Pride since I came. You know, I had kind of begged my exes for support letters, which is quite humiliating, but whatever. You know, it was at that point that I realized that, OK, this is kind of an inhumane process. It's a very humbling experience where you have to get evidence and prove your sexuality and wait indefinitely,

not knowing when you're going to be interviewed, not knowing when you're going to be interviewed, not knowing when you're going to be able to work, having to set aside your ambitions. But you are now one of the founding members of UK Black Pride. You also advocate for LGBT refugees and asylum seekers, as I mentioned in the intro to you. Now that you're able to freely express all parts of your identity, how do you think that has helped you find your voice? So I think when I was going through this experience, I really thought I am lucky to be able to get support or to know or to be empowered, but it still affected my mental health. It still affected a lot. So I thought, OK, I don't want anyone else to go through this. I can easily be thought to be straight or heterosexual. What about those people like trans people or trans women who can be easily identified or people can be easily found out to

be different? I didn't want people to go through that, or I wanted at least for them to have more support. So I did find my voice in my journey. It was negative, but also it really birthed a passion for working with refugees. I wanted to support others. I wanted to be able to be part of that movement that worked there.

So that journey really in seeking safety kind of really made me so passionate to help others. It helped me to regain my confidence and develop a voice, not only develop a voice, but to push for change and support others. So I use that voice. Absolutely. Keep using it, Maud, an inspiring story. Thank you so much for speaking to me this morning

and so many of you getting in touch about the interview with Vandana. What an inspirational woman. I felt uplifted, says Zoe, on this cloudy Thursday morning. Lots of you getting in touch also about how you quit your job. Some good, some not so good. All of you who have taken the time to get in touch,

thank you so much. Now, the writer, Faye Weldon, best known for novels, including Downton, Down Among the Women, Praxis and the Life and Loves of a She-Devil, died yesterday, aged 91. She started her literary career as an advertising copywriter, then went on to write scripts for

radio and TV. Faye herself once said of her personal life that she didn't regret anything because it's all good copy. When asked about the life and love of a she-devil, she said that women were so much in the habit of being good, it would do nobody any harm if they learned to be a little bad. Amen to that. Who better to give us the last word on the programme today? good, it would do nobody any harm if they learnt to be a little bad. Amen to that. Who better to give us the last word on the programme today? Well, Jane Garvey spoke to her on Woman's Hour in 2015 and asked her what knowledge she had of the afterlife. I'm going to leave you with Faye Weldon. Join me tomorrow from 10. Well, I don't know that I have any knowledge of the afterlife.

I have a perception of the afterlife, which is a rather different thing. But it really is about my perception of the other side, which was on one of those occasions when one is in hospital having surgery and your heart stops and so forth, and so you wake up in intensive care. And the dream was really that I saw the pearly gates, and the pearly gates were not pearly and sort of nice and middle-class English, but sort of amazingly coloured and lurid and foster-esque colours.

Oh, no! Well, they stood for a bit, and they were double-gazed, which is the other thing. And they sort of slid aside, and there were these people trying to drag me through, and this strange creature, mother-like Cerberus at the gates of hell, was sort of pulling me through to the other side. And I did get through to the other side and I was able to see it. And I was then resuscitated.

And what one said was, oh, I see, much the same thing as before. And it was just the same. It was just the same but more so. So, you know, and it was quite cheerful. Was it? I'm trying to interpret that. Well, no, because you just knew it was always going to be sort of, you know, one step forward and two steps back or vice versa. So really it's just the same old, same old and a different sort of, a different sphere.

But nothing to worry about? Well, it might be. I don't know. What was to say? I didn't get it. I mean, they dragged me back. Who's to worry about? Well, it might be. I don't know. What was to say? I didn't get it. I mean, they dragged me back. Who's to say what it's going to be? I didn't feel me with fear, should I say.

I felt quite heartened by it. Will women and men get on better on the other side? They may have sort of separate departments. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. they claim will transform your life. Advice that gets them thousands, no, millions of devoted followers. These online prophets are telling us how to eat, how to think, how to get rich,

how to find love, how to manage our time. These are the new gurus. Just as people will say the Protestant Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand, So too did this birth of the new internet culture really give rise to this new religious landscape. Subscribe now to The New Gurus on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.