Woman's Hour - Economic Abuse, Michal Oshman, Roisin Gallagher, Barbershop Quartet, Mum shaming

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

Economic abuse was officially recognised under the Domestic Abuse Act in 2021, yet a new study from the charity Surviving Economic Abuse suggests victims are still being let down by the police and the courts. Their CEO Nicola Sharp-Jeffs joins to tell us more about their findings, alongside ITV broadcaster Ruth Dodsworth who shares her own personal experience.What would you do if you weren’t afraid? That is the question Michal Oshman is asking in her latest book. As the former Head of Company Culture at TikTok and International Leadership Development Executive at Facebook, she is no stranger to success. But Michal says that she has spent most of her life hiding anxiety and fear under this success - and uses her book to explore how we can all replace uncertainty with purpose for a better life. She joins Anita Rani to discuss.You might have seen in the papers and online that the actress Sophie Turner and the singer Joe Jonas are getting divorced. The couple met back in 2016 on Instagram, and were married a year later. They have two daughters together, but earlier this week released a joint statement saying they have 'mutually decided to amicably end' their marriage. However, TMZ reported that a source claimed that they had very different lifestyles. Sophie Likes to party, while Jo stays at home, they reported. Olivia-Anne Cleary is a senior editor and writer who felt compelled to write an article about it for Glamour magazine, Can We Please Stop Mum Shaming. She joins Anita to discuss.When you think of traditional barbershop singers you probably think of men. But there are just as many female acapella singing groups as male. The Ladies Association of British Barbershop Singers has around 60 clubs as members. And Mountain Harmony Chorus, the only one in Wales, wrote to Woman's Hour during Listener Week, inviting us to one of their rehearsals. We hear from our reporter Melanie Abbott who went along.Is Belfast the new city of love? Well it’s the backdrop to new Sky Atlantic romcom, The Lovers, which follows local supermarket worker Janet and her love affair with English TV presenter, Seamus O’Hannigan who has a whole other life, and a girlfriend, back in London. Roisin Gallagher, who plays Janet, joins Anita to talk about filming in her hometown and changing perceptions of Northern Ireland’s capital.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. So here's a question for all of you to think about. What would you do if you weren't afraid? It's actually the title of Michal Oshman's book and she'll be here to talk about that in a little while and about how she managed her own fears and anxiety

but how about you what would you do if you weren't afraid? Quit your job get a tattoo, book that holiday, apply for that job, move abroad, have another baby, what conversations would you have if you had no

fear? What would you say to your friends, your partner, your parents, your kids? Would you confront somebody? What would you say to your boss? Imagine if you had the courage to finally actually say what you think. What would you say and to whom? Imagine you totally fearless. What choices would you make about how to live your life? What's your next move get in touch with me i would love to hear those stories the text number is 84844 you can also email me via our website you can contact us on social media it's at bbc woman's hour and if you'd like to drop me a whatsapp or even a voice note it would be nice to hear your voices the

number is 03700 100 444 also Also on the programme today, a new TV recommendation. Actor Roisin Gallagher will be here to tell us about her new series, The Lovers, which is set in her hometown of Belfast, and music in the form of an a cappella group in Wales. Where else? It's going to be great. And of course, we would love to hear from you. That text number, once again, 84844. Come on, let me know. What would you do if you weren't afraid? But first, every 20 minutes, a case involving economic abuse is brought to the police. This is where perpetrators have control over their victims' bank accounts, utilities or pensions, to name just a few examples. Now, the effects of

economic abuse can be long lasting. Those affected can struggle to recover their credit score, build their finances back up, find housing or even get a mobile phone contract. And yet, despite it being added to the Domestic Abuse Act in 2021, a new study has found that police and courts are not using their powers to fully hold offenders of economic abuse to account. Well, someone who's had personal experience of this is broadcaster and weather presenter for ITV, Ruth Dodson. I spoke to her earlier this morning about her experiences and started by asking her why she wanted to talk about this. I think the simple answer is because we absolutely need to. You know, we talk about domestic abuse. I think, you know, people are very aware that domestic abuse is happening. But I think there are so many different types of

domestic abuse and forms and traits. And economic abuse is very much a part of that. And it's not something that we talk about often. I mean, let's face it, money is a yucky conversation, isn't it? People don't like talking about it. But actually, when you don't have money, when you don't have access to funds, it can make life very life very very difficult and for someone who's in an abusive relationship it can actually it's it's your only means sometimes of getting out and when you don't have access to funds you don't have access to you know to getting away to to getting on a bus to to getting out of that place you are trapped then in that relationship. And very often that can be deadly. So let's hear your story. When did the abuse first start?

Well, I mean, I was married for 18 years. We were together for nearly 20 years. And I'd say pretty much, looking back, hindsight is an amazing thing, isn't it? But I would say actually that the abuse was almost there from day one. And it's, you know, the early days of a relationship, you make excuses because actually a bit of jealousy and possessiveness is actually, it's quite flattering in a way. Gosh, he must really care about me. But, you know, there's a point at which it becomes sinister and a point at which, you know, screaming and shouting then becomes physical. So in a sense, that side of the abuse was there from day one. But actually, the economic abuse, which is part of the sort of coercive controlling behavior is very insidious. And actually, you don't necessarily realize what's going on. So in my case, you know, suddenly my bank card disappeared, my salary would go into my bank and it would go, he would withdraw it.

Did you know he had your bank card? Yeah, but it seems to sit here and say that now. I can guarantee that people will be thinking, well, how on earth? How on earth could you let that happen? What do you mean you didn't have your bank card? What do you mean you didn't have access to money? Well, actually, this is part of it. You see, you don't necessarily realise.

And then if you ask. Well, he was your husband he was your husband right you trust that person the person who who loves and cares for you can you actually describe exactly what he was in control of and how it was manifesting and what it was doing to you just sort of almost kind of list what what this how this control played out so so economic abuse in my case was i had no access to money if i wanted money for food for lunch i had to ask for it um what that does to you and it might sound trivial is that strips away your dignity it strips away your access to the outside world because you can't just go out and go and do a food shop. You have to ask. In a sense, it's asking permission. And that gives

that other person absolute 100% control and power because without that money, you are absolutely stuck. It takes away your ability to interact interact with the outside world to talk to people to to realize in the sense that this is happening to you and it was your money and he was taking it and spending it did you know what he was spending it on he was gambling he was drinking he certainly wasn't paying the bills that that I thought and assumed that he was. You know, I'm lucky in that I own a wage and I'm now able to sort of pay rent and so on. But he left me with nothing. The bank account had nothing in it. So I've worked for on television for 26 years. I have pension which he wants half of um and as a divorce he's

almost entitled to it um other than that I have no assets I have no savings I have a very basic bank account which I had to beg the bank to give me because of my credit rating um my daughter's in university and as much as I'd like to be able to help her, financially I can't. I literally have the money I earn and that is it. And that's where I am at after 26 years. So it's difficult. It is difficult. When did you recognise that it was economic abuse? I think probably only after he was first arrested. And part of the problem was that when he was arrested, the police found bags and bags of paperwork, loans and mortgages that he'd taken out in my name, things that I am liable for because they're in my name.

And let's face it, at the end of the day, the banks and the institutions want their money back. And there's a sense that, well, actually, the fact you didn't know is no defence. Ignor ignorance is no defence. The money, you owe it. So I am left with a huge amount of debt that he accrued in my name. I now have to pay that off. My credit rating is absolutely destroyed because of it. So things like renting a home, you know, I'm 48 years old. My elderly parents, and they'll hate me for saying renting a home, you know, I'm 48 years old, my elderly parents, and they'll hate me for saying elderly, but you know, they've had to act as a guarantor so that I can rent a house. Getting a mobile phone contract, you know, these are things

that I cannot do because my credit rating is destroyed. So in a sense, the economic abuse isn't just when you're in that relationship, that the ripple effect is long lasting. When did the police get involved and how? The police got involved because if I hadn't dialed 999, I wouldn't be alive and sitting here talking to you. And, you know, that's the stark reality of my case. Four years ago in October, my children basically said to me, Mum, don't come home because he will kill you.

He'd been on a drink drink fueled rampage for 24 hours that was pretty standard but I you know and I was used to that but I think this particular point um I told him I wanted a divorce um he he he couldn't tighten his grip anymore um but this is a man who basically said to me well if I can't have you no one else can and I think if I hadn't dialed 999, then 100% I wouldn't be here. So in a sense, the police got involved. I went to work Thursday morning. He was arrested Friday morning and I never saw him again.

So, you know, again, it's that the police and sort of the authorities now, the more we're talking about coercive controlling behaviour, domestic abuse, the more that they now are recognising the signs. Because let's face it, you know, it's not always a case of somebody presenting with with bruises and injuries. Coercive, controlling behaviour is is very much a sort of a hidden thing. And I think, you know, these conversations are important because they save lives. Getting it out there, keeping that conversation going, making sure people recognise and understand these various forms of abuse will save someone's life, and it certainly saved my life.

And you never know, somebody listening might be really paying close attention to what you're saying. But when you did get in touch with the police, you got in touch with the police because your life was under threat. Your children have now stepped in to say, Mum, you need to do something. How did the police take on the economic abuse? Quite simply, they didn't. You know, this is four years ago.

The economic side of it, in a sense, was sidelined because to their mind, it detracted from other elements of the case. So ultimately, it was a bit of paperwork. There were other aspects, coercive controlling behaviour, stalking and a couple of other charges. But that's what they wanted to focus on. So, you know, four years ago, I mean, it's not a long time. Four years ago, economic abuse wasn't it wasn't known. It wasn't part of the case. Very much so. It's really interesting because today we've got some I've got another guest coming on to talk about her book. And the title of her book is What Would You Do If You Weren't Afraid? And we're asking all our listeners to really think about that and get in touch and tell us what they would do.

When did you find the courage to do something? And how did you? I think in a sense, he gave me no option. So I don't know if it was courage, or it was the very fact that my children and a friend said to me, if you do not ring the police, we will. And actually that I guess that sort of forced my hand in a sense but thank goodness they did do that I don't feel brave I don't feel that courage sort of played a part in it in my case it was survival it was it was it was do or die basically so you know and thank goodness I did and anyone again anyone listening to this who might think well well, you know, that's happening to me or gosh, I know someone. All I would say is please just ask for help, because, again, life after that abusive relationship is just that it is life.

And so often people stuck in abusive relationships don't get out alive. And is there a particular moment, Ruth, that stands out for you where you really felt a sense of getting your life back and your independence back? Oh gosh, that's such a difficult one because every single day I'm building my life, I'm relearning certain things. I think this is going to sound really, really trivial, but I had a bit of a eureka moment actually after my ex-husband had been arrested and someone had given me uh someone had given me some some money not very much and I was able to go buy a cup of coffee on the local high street here and I didn't have to ask permission I didn't have to ask if I could go and buy that coffee and it was a real moment it was it's so simple

but for me to be able to go and buy myself a cup of coffee changed everything but suddenly that was me being independent and that was me being able to do something for myself and that was an amazing feeling just something as simple as that thank you for sharing your story really takes courage to do just this. I talk about the kids and I think that's when it sort of, it gets me more than anything. That's the emotional side of it for me, you know. But yeah, they're fine and life goes on, so, you know.

And we're happy that Ruth is fine. And that was Ruth Doddsworth sharing her story there. And I should say, we contacted South Wales Police who dealt with Ruth's case. They say financial abuse remains a pervasive tactic utilised by perpetrators of domestic abuse and violence while many recognise forms of abuse such as psychological, physical, sexual

and emotional, it's essential to understand the profound consequences financial abuse can inflict on victims and survivors. South Wales Police officers undergo rigorous training, equipping them to not only search for concrete evidence of criminal proceedings, but also to identify underlying indications of ongoing abuse. If you would like to get in touch with us after hearing Ruth speak there, please do, the text number 84844.

I'm now joined in the studio by Nicola Sharp-Jeffs who's CEO of Surviving Economic Abuse who carried out the study. Welcome to Women's Hour Nicola. How common are stories like Ruth's? Thank you for having me. Sadly stories like Ruth's are very very common. The research that we undertook as part of our partnership with the Women and Child Abuse Studies Unit at London Met University and funded by Barclays found that two-thirds of all successfully prosecuted coercive or controlling behaviour cases reported in the media included one form of economic abuse.

But at the same time, we know that a lot of victims and survivors don't call the police. I mean, just listening to Ruth there, it was her children who pushed her into doing it. We know that the vast majority don't, so this is likely to be the tip of the iceberg. If a case is reported every 20 minutes containing some elements of economic abuse, why is this factor being sidelined, do you think, when it comes to charges and prosecution? It's really interesting. The title of the report,

Seen But Sidelined, actually came from Ruth's interview with us. She inspired that title because, yes, it is being seen. But as Ruth explained, the police are just finding other forms of coercive or controlling behaviour easier to evidence. For example, physical abuse, things that are leaving bruises. Economic abuse is very insidious, as Ruth talked about. It can be very difficult to see and to recognise.

And one of the reasons why we really need to increase police understanding but also public understanding of economic abuse more generally is because where you want to catch it early, it can be one of the earliest forms of coercive or controlling behaviour. Victims and survivors might see it as caring behaviour, you know, don't worry, you're very busy, let me look after the finances. That's what Ruth said at the beginning.

It's quite flattering to feel that this person might want to protect you or feel jealous even. This is it and it's not until later that you might recognise therefore that you don't have the money to buy a cup of coffee. A lot of us talk about coercive or controlling behaviour as being a freedom crime and I think again Ruth really demonstrated that. So it's vitally important that we catch this behaviour really early, that we are prosecuting it before it escalates to the levels that Ruth described.

I mean, a Home Office report showed that a third of homicides feature economic issues. So we really need to ensure that we're not waiting for victims and survivors to contact the police because their lives are in danger, that they're reporting because of the control, the freedom that's being taken away from them, so that we can reduce, you know, the homicide rates, even though with two to three women still, this, you know, in this day and age being killed by a current or former partner every single week. And that's not even thinking about the women who take their own lives. And again, there were several women within the research who took their own lives and one charge of manslaughter within the study. What struck me was when Ruth said something about when she explained that he'd taken a bank card and she said

I know people listening will be thinking well how did you allow that to happen? I just wonder about the sense of shame that comes attached to something as specific as finances. I think there's a double taboo here we don't talk about finances as a society and we don't talk about abuse as well so when you bring those two things together, it can be really difficult. But conversations like this, studies such as the one that Surviving Economic Abuse has produced, you know, really do start the conversation. And that's vitally important for the reasons that I've outlined, you know, to stop it escalating. And finally, how do we move on from here? Should police and judges be offered some sort of special training? What's the next step? Well, surviving economic abuse is urging the government to act through the Victim and

Prisoner's Bill, which is going through Parliament at the moment. It's vitally important to us that perpetrators are held accountable for all forms of their behaviour and that victims and survivors get that true justice. So that would include things like police training, certainly, better prosecution within the court service, a recognition within sentencing of the economic impact on victims and survivors, and importantly, the awarding of compensation orders. So they seek to address lost damage or expenses incurred as a result of the crime. And if we're not addressing economic abuse in the prosecution, then that's not going to be a factor that's considered by the judge. Again, in our study, just 2% of victims and survivors received a

compensation order. And, you know, hundreds of women, as this research has shown, you know, are homeless, they're destitute, they're in debt, they've lost their jobs, they've lost their prospects, they've lost their belongings, and they're having to rebuild their lives with a poor credit rating, again, as Ruth described. So that's something that we would like the government to do to really work with the financial services industry who are doing great work in this area, but specifically credit reference agencies to address issues around credit ratings and history so that survivors can rebuild safely. Nicola, thank you so much for coming in to speak to me about that. Our text number once again, 84844. Now, what would you do

if you weren't afraid? This is the question Michal Oshman is asking in her latest book. As the former head of company culture at TikTok and international leadership development executive at Facebook,

she is no stranger to success. But Michal says that she spent most of her life hiding anxiety and fear under this success and uses her book to explore how we can all replace uncertainty with purpose for a better life. And I am delighted to say that she joins me live in the studio now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Morning. Would you like to hear what some of our listeners have said? Because I threw the

question out first thing. That's lots of people getting in touch. Actually, before I do, Michal, if you don't mind, someone's just been in touch about this. I'm sure you were paying attention to the item we were just talking about, economic abuse. Someone said, I can't tell you how grateful I am talking about this subject today. As a 52-year-old woman who experienced economic abuse from their partner, I've struggled so much to be understood, especially as an articulate, educated woman

who had a property, inheritance and savings. I'm rebuilding my life now with my young children, but it's so important for people to understand this insidious crime and also the after effects and how long it carries on as a, as post separation abuse too. So thank you for that. So what would you do if you weren't afraid? Someone Jude has said, what would I do?

Say no and not feel so guilty. Oh, you're nodding along. As someone else has said, if I were without fear i would lose all the extra weight i carry for a few years now i seem to be unable to do this and the only thing stopping me is fear i'm willing um i know what i need to do i'm just left powerless to doing it i've started speaking with a counselor and hope that together we will unravel the ball of knots

preventing me from moving forward terry it's a great title for a book because it just makes us all stop and think. Why did you want to write it? I wanted to write this book because I've been afraid most of my life, or at least until the age of 38, which was 10 years ago. Everyone has their own different fear based on their background, their story, their narrative, their personality. And it's very hard to put your finger and say, this is the cause. But for many years, I thought that my own personal fear

was an outcome of my childhood and being the granddaughter of Holocaust survivors. All of my grandparents were Holocaust survivors, but specifically my grandmother, Chana, jumped off the train, which was on the way to Auschwitz. And she raised me. And my very first childhood experiences and memories are being fed chicken soup so I can be fuller and stronger. And 11am, I used to eat chicken I wanted to throw up, but I took it in because I knew it was so

important for my survivor grandmother that I'm stronger. We used to hide tuna cans. And my first memories are really hearing her scream at night. So from a very young age, I was afraid of the Nazi. I was afraid that something bad will happen. I never slept more than two hours in a row. I used to wake up and check that my grandparents were breathing and my parents. And then later, as a young mother, I used to check that my children were breathing. But I thought that was normal.

And actually, it connects to what we discussed before, sometimes you're placed in a home and a situation when you think this is just life, this is normal. And I thought we were supposed to live with fear and with sadness. And there were other things in my childhood that caused me to be a very frightened young girl, but I also wanted to be perfect. And I think part of fear

in different cultures, it comes to life in a different way. We want to please. Because your parents are both very successful. Yes, my parents were successful and I was brought up in a survival mindset. Life can end in a second. So what are you going to do now? Explain why you knew that as a child. Through my grandmother's eyes. And your father? My father was held a very senior position in Israel for many, many years. He was the head

forensic pathologist, the chief coroner of Israel. And unfortunately, I was exposed to death in a very young age. I think the first dead body that I saw, and I don't want to trigger anyone listening to us, was at the age of seven. And just death was just more closer to me than life so what happened at 38 so i went on a journey um first of all never no one ever i was raised in a home but we don't today we speak with our children often how do you feel how was school uh you know i was brought up in a home okay what's next uh you know very functional So I never even had the vocabulary to think or to express how I felt. It was just after the army, I was an officer in the Israeli Defense Forces for three years. And I had a little breakdown after I had to be very

responsible. When I was there, I was dealing with some serious, you know, matters, let's just say responsible for myself and also for hundreds of other women. And at the end of the army, I think I was about 20, 21, and I held so much inside of me that I had a bit of a breakdown. Again, no one knew. My hair looked great and I always had my eyeliner on. But inside, I was really suffering and I started having difficult thoughts, scary thoughts. So I started my journey on going to therapy because that's what I was very familiar with. I had four therapists in, I don't know, maybe 15 years. They helped me to a certain degree. I really developed an understanding of myself, how I respond to people, to situations, what belongs to me, what doesn't belong to me. But at some point, I felt like I was really visiting

the past a lot, blaming my parents, which is also a healthy thing. Doing all the unfinished business with them, you know, encouraged by my therapist to kind of challenge them on different things that happened. But like, I didn't feel better. The healing, my parents took responsibility, they showed me love, they always showed me that they loved me. Parents often do the best that they can. But at some point at the age of 38, I hit a place in my head when on the outside, I had so much to celebrate. Really, Anita, I'm not just married. I mean, you're super successful. But that's the gap.

There's two personas. There was the LinkedIn story, right? If you look at my LinkedIn. Yeah, tell us. It's an amazing LinkedIn no the LinkedIn story is three university degrees and officer in the army and working in Facebook and TikTok and Danone and Freud communications and really persevering and being top student like but that highest level at the highest level but I have to say not that I'm not pleased with my

you know those outcomes but they were they weren't done out of joy or even meaning they were they they're an outcome of fear and i do think there's a way to live meaningfully and purposefully um not needing to feel like you know you're chasing or someone's you're chased or you're chasing something and you grew up in israel but you grew up in a secular family correct but. But it was actually connecting to your ancient Jewish wisdom that was the turnaround for you. Right. Not therapy. Correct. And I, listen, I studied psychotherapy myself. So I went to the Tavista clinic and I'm almost like, I wouldn't say trained, but very, very knowledgeable of anything that has to do with psychology. However, at some point at the age of 38,

I felt like therapy was revisiting childhood experiences. I know what happened. I know what I saw, what I smelled. But I want to move forward. I want to sleep. I want to give my child a grape and assume that they're not going to die from choking, you know. So therapy didn't help there. And then, yes, you're right. 10 years ago, at the age of 38, I explored all the isms. Buddhism, Taoism, the only ism that I never had any curiosity about is my own backyard ism, Judaism. When we moved to London 20 years ago, I, you know, I actually had to deal with Judaism in a less nice way when I dealt a little bit with anti-Semitism here. So that was a different experience, but it was definitely not spiritual. And then at the age of 38,

I realized there is there's there's spirituality in my own upbringing. Being Jewish doesn't mean that you have to be scared. And that I have a soul, which was a life changing discovery. And at the same time, you had this really important role as head of culture within a huge organization within TikTok. Your job is to, you know, look at the landscape of what's going on and impact it. And you're a woman in that role. So how did it impact, how did it change how you performed at work? What did it do for you, just changing the way you think? It was quite special. You know how sometimes in life, now I'm going to speak like a woman of faith, everything happens for a reason or, you know, from a spiritual perspective.

The title of the book, What Would You Do If You Weren't Afraid, is actually a Facebook mantra. So when I joined Facebook about 10, 11 years ago, just as I started discovering my ancient, my own ancient wisdom, I saw that big poster in the reception on the wall and it said, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And just next to that sign was a big sign that said, fail harder. And I got to know the company culture, which was all about, yes, you'll feel afraid, but if you want to be creative and if you want to be impactful and if you want to do what you're born to do, then you have to take the risk of failing harder. And what does it mean failing harder, doing everything you can to try to do something,

but knowing that if you fail, at least you failed harder. And I took that to parenting, to my relationship with my husband, to work to every every department in my life, if I'm here, and I'm alive, it because it's because I'm needed in this world. And if I'm needed in my life, if I'm here and I'm alive, it's because I'm needed in this world. And if I'm needed in this world, I'm going to do everything I can to make the most out of it. And when I fail, I'll fail harder. So what did you do when you were at TikTok? What did you go in there and see and think, OK, this is how I want to run things. This is what I want to do.

And how did the fearlessness inform that? So I joined TikTok probably about three years ago after a long time at Facebook. And now I'm kind of switching to my professional hat, which all the hats are obviously combined on the same head like all of us. When I joined TikTok, I was already deep into my spiritual journey, feeling more comfortable as a mother. I think I just gave birth to my fourth child at the age of 42, our child, the child that was born to a new version of me. And when I came to TikTok, I was already 45. Initially, I thought, why would they even hire me? Like, I don't have TikTok myself. But I joined TikTok because I saw that my teenage daughter was on it. And I realized she's consuming content in a new way from a company that is still a very young company.

I want to be able to influence that. I'm always about influencing. So I've never, you know, we spoke before in the corridor conversation about out of comfort zone. I feel comfortable when I'm not comfortable. So what did you do differently? What did you want to do differently there? So I joined TikTok relatively early on. I mean, I think TikTok now, I obviously left in the last few weeks. TikTok is now four and a half. So I joined when the company was really

young. And, you know, people think TikTok as if it's been here forever. It hasn't. So the first thing I did is knowing that I'm joining a company, a young company, a young company that I can help shape and influence. And I was so grateful for the opportunity to be able to focus on culture, because culture, which is the area that I'm super passionate about, culture happens if you want it or not. Like there is culture in Women's Hour team in the BBC studios. There's culture in your church, in your sports club. Culture happens when you have people getting together. So my passion was to come in and to try influence how the culture shapes up and evolves. And I deliberately wanted to join a company that is influenced by a culture that I'm not familiar with, which is Chinese culture.

And that was a very new experience. I worked for Facebook. I got very familiar with kind of corporate America, which is closer to kind of Israeli culture. And here I'm suddenly sitting in an interview and someone is interpreting Mandarin to English. New. And now you find yourself in a position where you've written a book. Yes, I had to. In a language that isn't your first language.

Correct. I had to. So is this the ultimate? This is what you've done because you weren't afraid. And here you are now telling everybody about it you know the book the book so the book had to be written because um at the moment and I'm quite mission driven I know you were looking at each other into each other's eyes now Anita and I feel a connection to you uh I had to it was scary to write the book I wanted to read it to write it in my uh in Hebrew and then I said no no wanted to write it in Hebrew.

And then I said, no, no, you write it the way you're living your life in English, an international kind of multicultural environment. When I was on my journey, I was looking to read books about spirituality, faith, but really connected to the everyday life, to being a mom, to being an executive, to being very familiar with mental health, to being sometimes obsessed with what I look like. And most of the people that write books about that are men, and some of them really don't look like me or represent something that's very different to me. So during COVID, I had to overcome my own fears and know that I'm not articulate enough and I make mistakes in English. But I wrote this book every night. I sat down from 10pm until 2am,

and for nine months, I wrote this book and I I sat down for nine from from 10 p.m until 2 a.m and for nine months I wrote this book and I birthed it and that's dedication and congratulations thank you and it's been a pleasure speaking to you this morning thank you so much for hosting me thank you and so many people getting in touch uh in answer to the question of the book what would you do if you weren't afraid if I wasn't afraid of anything I'd go traveling by myself as a 23 year old woman would also love to just walk home alone at night with no fear someone else says I would do something as simple as go to the pub on a Sunday with the observer have a pint and a read without being disturbed I'd also walk my dog at night and travel alone more um someone else has said and if I wasn't afraid I would skydive that's

Deborah who's 64 do it Deborah and oh someone with no name has said i would tell my son i didn't like his girlfriend keep them coming in 84844 is the number to text now the actress sophie turner and the singer joe jonas are getting divorced after four years of marriage they released a joint statement saying they've mutually decided to amicably end their marriage they have two young daughters together however an entertainment news site reported that a source claimed that they had very different lifestyles. Sophie likes to party while Joe stays at home. And over the last three months, Joe has been caring for the children

pretty much all the time, even as his band was touring. Well, Olivia Ann Cleary is a senior editor and writer. She felt compelled to write an article for Glamour magazine. Can we please stop mum shaming? She joins me now. Welcome, Olivia. Why did you want to write it? Hi, I just think this entire divorce discourse is so problematic,

unnecessary and damaging. It seems to be solely intent on pushing this narrative that paints a less than positive picture of Sophie as a wife and a mother and you know as you said this is you know unnamed unidentified source quotes but let's just say for argument's sake that it is true that Joe has been looking after the kids for the past three months while Sophie is working or occupied elsewhere so what you know if the line out there had said that Sophie had been looking after the kids for three months while Joe was working elsewhere, no one would bat an eyelid. You and I

wouldn't be talking about it. It wouldn't have, you know, sparked any conversation. But the mere suggestion that, you know, a wife isn't front and centre of the, you know, childcare sparks this, you know, narrative that really is just shaming women shaming mothers and it's uh it's quite disappointing that it's in 2023 and this is happening yeah of course and we don't know any of the details about the couple other than that they what they've said but but i just wonder what's wrong with a 20 something mom a mom partying anyway exactly you know she's 27 years old she was a person before she had children, before she got married. She's still a person now. If she does, you know, have a night out or she is working elsewhere and he's taking care of the children while she's working. It really shouldn't be this kind of a shaming discourse.

It shouldn't be at all. And it's so disappointing. It really is. Well, it's interesting that there has been a lot of a bit of a backlash to the headlines and and including your article and lots of people coming at women particularly coming out in support but why haven't we moved on from this why haven't we and you know as you say what's wrong with a woman having a night out do you do you stop having any other interests outside motherhood once you become a mother you know if joe is allowed to pursue his music and his interests outside of fatherhood, that, you know, same courtesy and liberty should be extended to Sophie to pursue things outside of motherhood. And it's just this ongoing mum shaming that we see and women shaming. I think this has really brought it into the forefront. And as you mentioned, it has got backlash, this narrative.

And it's really heartening to see people coming out and speaking in her defense. But if you were right now to go on Instagram and go on any page of a woman in the public eye who happens to be a mother, and if you found a picture of her on a night out or, you know, enjoying dinner with friends, you wouldn't have to scroll along through the comments before you'd find at least one person saying, where are your children?

You know, those comments come up all the time. Something for us to all think about. Olivia, thank you very much for speaking to us and writing the article. It's in Glamour at School. Can we please stop mum shaming? Lots of you getting in touch about what you do if you weren't afraid.

I'd take naps in the sunshine on a park bench. I would shave my hair off. I'd hug trees every day. Go for it, Zoe. There's a new TV out. It's called The Lovers. New series comes out today on Sky Atlantic and it follows local supermarket worker Janet

and her whirlwind romance with English TV broadcaster Seamus O'Hanigan, who has, wait for this, a whole of the life and a girlfriend back in London. Well, Roisin Gallagher plays Janet and we've just heard that she joins me now from Belfast. Roisin, welcome. Tell us about Janet. Hello, thank you so much for having me. Janet,

wow, Janet's quite the woman. She is, so she's described as a foul-mouthed supermarket worker who doesn't really care about very much at all. I'd say that's pretty accurate but I think like so many really well-written multi- characters, there's much more to the story than that. You know, we're dealing with somebody when we first meet her who's quite lost and disconnected from herself spiritually, from her community. And really doesn't believe, I feel she really doesn't value herself and feel like she can be loved. And then she meets a man and he doesn't change that. He doesn't fix her. But what he does do is somehow give her the space to see that actually she is worthy of that love. And yeah, it's a really special journey that the two of them

go on sold absolutely sold um when you got the script and you read this fantastic character that you could get into and you also read that it's a story set in belfast as a local girl as a belfast lass what did you think oh i mean as a belfast girl I think it was, first of all, it was like, oh, my God, this is about, this is in Belfast. This is amazing. I get to do this part in my own voice. This is the real deal, you know. David Ireland, the writer, is from Belfast. He knows it inside out.

He loves the city. And I really feel like it's a love letter to Belfast. And how important is that for you to be in it, but also for people to see that? It's so important. It makes me feel so proud to be a part of that telling of that brilliant story. But I think, you know, the world perhaps has seen Belfast in not a very beautiful, vibrant, creative light. And I think The Lovers really shows that that is what Belfast is. It's a city that's much more about unification than division.

And we've come a really long way. And, you know, like so many of our writers, David doesn't pretend it didn't happen. Yeah. It's there. It's a part of the tapestry of our history and it's there, but it's more about hope and love and connection and the human condition of meeting somebody that you just, something happens. Yeah, because one of the things the show does really well is striking the balance between showing modern Belfast, but also hinting to the history in the past, because it's the story of Belfast but also hinting to the history in the past because it's the story of Belfast.

Was that difficult to do? And is there anything that really stands out for you in particular? Yeah, I think the difficulty probably was about a realisation for me that yes, this place and this history and what is in my dna and my makeup as somebody who was born in 1987 and and experienced you know have memories of the good friday agreement the peace process and it feels like it's not until i see that through another person, another character, another story's eyes that I realise how profoundly it can affect and determine your future as a person, you know. And I feel like, I feel very lucky, actually, that I got a chance to live through Janet

and then have a time of processing after. It takes me a wee while for things to sink in, to process after and go, actually, yeah, that was a big deal. Because you filmed in parts of the city that you've actually never been in before in your life. Never. And that's because, explain why, because Janet is from a unionist Protestant community,

very different from your own upbringing. Yeah, so I grew up in, very similar to Janet in terms of social economic background, I guess, working class. But I came from West Belfast and that's where I live now with my family and it's a beautiful part of the city. And so is East Belfast and it wasn't even being on the streets that I had never been on before I just never had any need to um uh I guess that's yeah that is that shows the sort of the division you know the walls are still very present but um it was also the time of year we were filming as well it was around the 12th of July you know normally I'm in Donegal with the rest of the West of Belfast on my holidays and um you know I'm laughing

about it but actually there was something really special about being able to be in the city and just soaking up the atmosphere and the celebration of that culture which we don't see very much. I just wonder what the impact on you how profound that was immersing yourself in the other side of the other community if you like. Well kind of what was really profound was that there's no difference. Yeah. There was no difference. I keep going back to this scene in The Dairy Girls where the blackboard's filled with all the differences

between Catholic and Protestant, which is absolutely hilarious. And, you know, the only difference really is that Janet probably keeps her toaster uncovered. And I kept mine in the, you know, it just it was a real eye opener for me. I have to say, you know, you think it wasn't until I moved away from Belfast that I realised, OK, so that wasn't normal. That separation, that kind of seeking out, trying to figure out where people are from to keep yourself safe. So that isn't normal? Okay.

You know, but the stories are being told much more now, much more freely and much more funnily. Yes, and that's really important, the sense of humour, and that comes across in this, especially the English-Northern Irish banter that comes through the script. It's also a love letter to the city itself would you would you agree oh absolutely yeah it's um what it does is sort of show the progress um and again doesn't shy away from things like the murals um and the history of the place but it was shot so beautifully for a start-off we had an

incredible crew it's a stunning city and it is beautiful to look at and also I have to say this one of the best nights out in the cathedral quarter Belfast yes am I wrong or am I right oh you're right you're totally right you know what you're talking about I absolutely do and I'm going to come and see you next time I'm in the city. And yes, Duke of York, Spaniard, I'll be there. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you. Best of luck. The Lovers is, it starts tonight.

It's on Sky Atlantic. Roisin Gallagher, thank you. That's it for me today. Thanks to all of you for getting in touch with the programme. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Can you just tell me who he is no has he got any distinguishing features his anonymity what's his name Banksy I'm James Peake and I'm on a mission to find out how Banksy

became the world's most famous and infamous living artist he could literally be anyone Banksy essentially humiliates the art world. With dealers, critics and someone who once worked deep inside Banksy's secret team. Do you wish you didn't know he was? Sometimes I wish I'd never heard of Banksy. The Banksy Story, with me

James Peake, on Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. How does he smell? Like paint. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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