Woman's Hour - Economic impact of Covid 19 on women, Co-parenting under lock-down, Sheila Rock

Episode Date: April 8, 2020

A range of think tanks and international organisations have warned that women could be hit harder by the economic fall-out from the Covid 19 Pandemic. The World Economic Forum is concerned that it could exacerbate existing financial inequality between men and women. The Women and Equalities House of Commons select committee has launched an inquiry into the potentially unequal impact of Covid 19 and responses to it. And, in recent days the government has extended its Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme to allow parents with caring responsibilities and domestic employees the possibility of being furloughed. Jenni talks to Clare McNeil, Associate Director at the Institute for Public Policy Research and to Sophie Walker, CEO of the Young Women’s Trust about the economic experiences of womenCo-parenting can be difficult at the best of times. But the outbreak of COVID 19 and the latest government advice to stay indoors, has forced some separated families to make some difficult choices. If you and your ex-partner share the caring responsibilities of your children, what’s the best way to manage? Ex partners Natalie Duvall and Daniel Dubier, and single-mother Endy Mckay join Jenni to share their experience of the last couple of weeks.Sheila Rock’s photos are the defining images of the British punk scene of the 70’s and 80’s – from The Clash to Blondie, she photographed them all. Since then, she’s gone on to photograph horses, Tibetan monks, and more recently, British seaside-goers. She joins Jenni to discuss capturing British spirit and culture.Play is crucial for young children to develop social skills and a sense of self. But with potentially months of lockdown and school closures ahead, will there be long-term consequences to being separated from their peers? Are only children more at risk than those with siblings? And how well are family relationships able to adapt and cope with prolonged isolation? Ali Lacey and a team of researchers from the University of Sussex are starting a new study to find out – and they’re inviting Woman’s Hour listeners to get involved - tinyurl.com/vagdn2vPresenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Caroline Donne Interviewed guest: Clare McNeil Interviewed guest: Sophie Walker Interviewed guest: Natalie Duvall Interviewed guest: Daniel Dubier Interviewed guest: Endy Mckay Interviewed guest: Sheila Rock Interviewed guest: Ali Lacey

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. If you're a parent but you and your former partner live apart, how are you managing to share responsibility for the children during these very strange times? We'll hear some parents' experience of the last two weeks. Pictures of young punks, how the photographer Sheila Rock

captured the clash, Blondie, and the interior of a shop in the King's Road called Sex. And the University of Sussex needs your help. Their School of Psychology is investigating the impact of lockdown and separation from school and playmates on children. Only you can provide the material for their research. Now, it is becoming increasingly obvious that the warnings that women would probably be hit harder than anyone as a result of the economic fallout from the COVID-19 pandemic

are being realised. A range of think tanks and international organisations have expressed concerns and the World Economic Forum has said it's worried that it could exacerbate the existing financial inequality between men and women. The Women and Equality Select Committee in the House of Commons has launched an inquiry into the potential impact of the virus and responses to it. And the government has now extended the coronavirus job retention scheme to allow parents with caring responsibilities and domestic employees the possibility of being furloughed. Well, I'm joined by Sophie Walker, who's Chief Executive of the Young Women's Trust, and Clare McNeill, an Associate Director at the Institute for Public

Policy Research and the author of Children of the Pandemic. Clare, if I can start with you, how much will this announcement of furlough for parents with childcare pressures and domestic employees really help? Well, it really should help because caring for children should be recognised for what it is. It's a full-time occupation. And many of us who are parents are grappling with having our kind of home and work lives merged, and there are many joys and delights there. But in our report, The Children of the Pandemic, we showed that that for some parents it's virtually impossible to combine work and care so obviously those who can't work from home in the first place those only 10 percent of those in the bottom half of earners can actually do that and it's also difficult for single parents

people that have a child with special educational needs or a disability. And of course, for parents of very young children or babies who need constant supervision. But in our view, it still doesn't go far enough. We do think that the scheme should be extended to cover people who are working reduced hours as a result of the crisis. And also that parents should have the right to be furloughed because they will still be largely reliant on the goodwill of their employer here. And what about the domestic employees? I mean I presume that would cover nannies who would normally be looking after children for parents who are now having to look after them themselves. Well I mean actually what this crisis does is it exposes the kind of complex informal care networks that many people rely on. So while some nannies and childminders will be Ofsted registered, they will have an employer,

actually many won't. And so people who are perhaps working, you know, cash in hand, and that does constitute many childminders and nannies, they won't have that to fall back on. So, I mean, it's a very positive move. But I think this does shine a spotlight on the care that we all rely on. Sophie, how welcome was the news that furlough could bring in 80% of wages to some of the low-paid young women you work with? Well, we're certainly glad that the government has confirmed the scheme now applies to people unable to work because they're looking after children.

We still think this needs to be much more widely publicised. Despite this, some young women are reporting that their employers are still refusing to furlough them. And there's a wider issue, too, that other young women being furloughed are telling us they feel very panicked and uncertain about whether employers are being transparent about the future and this this raises a point that you know is a repetition

of an old old pattern which is that for some young women who are trying to work from home and do child care and do their work they're worried that employers aren't taking into account the impact on their productivity and that this could have an impact in the future if their employer is looking at redundancies. And also women who are seeking furlough in order to be able to care for their children are worried that they will somehow be seen as less serious. So, you know, this is the old pattern

in which women are expected to do the vast majority of care and are then potentially penalised by employers for seeming to be less serious about their paid work. expected to do the vast majority of care and are then potentially penalized by employers for seeming to be less serious about their paid work i think it's also worth remembering that uh you know a 20 pay cut is really significant for many young women who are already struggling financially and could be the difference between paying rent or not this is not a scheme that was set up with women young women carers in mind. They've been added afterwards. And so this is really typical of policymaking that is

ostensibly gender neutral, but actually really doesn't work for women. What we are asking for a Young Women's Trust is a recognition from government that women are more economically vulnerable to this crisis and a response that is specifically tailored to women's current situation. Claire just just on the point of the future this call that you've made for workers to have the right to be furloughed what risks might there be for women who take the opportunity when it comes to going back to work and employers saying maybe she's not as serious as we thought she was? Yeah I think there are risks there I mean there are risks for all

employees. The government has made it clear that they don't expect discrimination among employers but we do think that there should be it should be made clear that there's a right to return to a job and I think Sophie's right you, the concern is that many employers just simply don't know about this. So we know from the charity Working Families that many parents, particularly women, are still right now being dismissed or forced to take unpaid leave. So it's really important that employers know about this. But where people do lose their job, you know, Sophie says, you know, the social safety net that we have is incredibly important here. And universal credit is really going to play an important role. I mean, at IPPR,

we would like to see the social safety net boosted. It's an increase to universal credit, the removal of the benefit cap, which hits families and children, and those with disabilities, the hardest, and also the two child limits, which penalises families. So there are concerns about people that are going on the furlough scheme and the risks of discrimination, but also for those that do end up losing their job. Claire, what about this question that Sophie raised of government somehow not seeming really to know much about women's lives

or having women there as decision-makers? We spoke to Caroline Criado-Perez recently about, you know, the dangers of removing women and data about women from decision makers. What are we going to do about that? Because government surely doesn't have enough information to make decisions about women. Well, I think there's a frustration here that in this crisis, caring for children or anyone for that matter, has been seen as a private issue, something for people, usually women, to resolve behind closed doors without a fuss. And, you know, we've seen that it's not. It's essential economic and social infrastructure. So, you know, we'd like to see these issues being considered at the start. Perhaps if there are more women visible at the daily

press conferences, that would make a difference. But we need to be considering these sorts of issues at the start. And the data should be there. It's about people considering these issues and those who are decision makers. Sophie, I know a lot of young women you work with are working in nursing or care work, and they're really struggling to provide care for their own families, let alone do their jobs. What needs to change if the work they do is to be valued more highly? Well, our response to this, first and foremost, has been to set up an emergency fund for young women on low and no pay.

It's that bad. We are raising money and giving money to women. Just £27 provides a weekly food shop for one young woman we are hearing from a lot of young women also i think um if i may mention on zero hours contracts who um have not had any sort of stability around those contracts who have not had any sort of safety net and are now struggling to actually even get through to apply for universal credit they are they've either been waiting a long time already for payment or they're now actually having difficulty getting through what we are asking government for is you know benefits to be paid at the national living wage and waiting times and access for universal credit to be vastly improved.

We're also asking that people previously on zero-hour contracts have provisions in line with those that government has made, for example, the self-employed. But we are also and have also been saying for a very long time that we need to revalue care. We need to understand that care is worth investing in. We know that the unpaid work that young women do, and this is just young women between the ages of 18 to 30, contributes £140 billion a year to the UK economy. And the government routinely

banks that to provide economic choices for other people. So, you know, a really key part of this, of surviving this crisis, is to say, look, young women are demonstrating enormous strength and resilience and determination. They need support now and they also need to be valued because they are providing critical care and support. Sophie Walker and Clare McNeill, thank you both very much indeed for being with us. And we would like to hear from you. If you're in this kind of position and you're finding life is really difficult financially, do let us know about it. You can tweet us or you can send us an email. Now, when parents don't live together but share the care of their children, it can be difficult to organise at the best of times.

So, how are people managing now when the government is requiring us all to stay at home? Which home do the children stay in when the regular trips to the other parent's home are not supposed to happen? Well, Endy Mackay has been separated from her nine-year-old son's father for several years. Natalie Duval and Daniel Dubier have two daughters, have been separated for two years, but COVID-19 has brought them all together in Natalie's house. Now, I know you're sharing headphones, Natalie and Daniel. Endy, I'll speak to you in a moment. But Natalie, let's begin with you. How do you and Daniel usually share the care of the girls?

So usually we both work nine to five and it takes a village to help with raising our kids. And so I do a lot of the school drop-offs in the morning because Daniel actually lives an hour away from us and then he will pick up in the evening because they do after-school club and my mum also helps a lot with the child care when we're both working so it's really like a whole family affair but obviously now with my mum not being able to help with looking after the children and us still both working full time, we really had to put our heads together and think how best to kind of combat this.

Daniel, big step. What made you decide moving back to Natalie's was the only solution? Because the kids are just so comfortable and secure within their house. I didn't want to kind of move them around physically over to mine. And I thought the best solution was to kind of come over here and kind of help with sort of day-to-day tasks. To be honest with you, I didn't anticipate this being as long as it's lasted. I mean, I thought it would be at least a couple of days to a week,

but it's kind of dragged on a bit and, you know, I'm just kind of here just to kind of help with day-to-day tasks, homeschooling, cooking, and just do as much as I can just to kind of make sure that the kids are as stable as possible. I have to say you're in very good company. Apparently Bruce Willis and Demi Moore have moved back in together after 20 years, I think, of being separated. Let's go to Endy.

Endy, how do you manage the care of your son under normal circumstances well um as you said co-parenting is is not easy at the best of times it's taken us quite a long time to establish a kind of regular routine but we we have been there recently with uh our son having visits at the weekend to his dad and so obviously after spending so much time establishing that I was really reluctant for that to be interrupted and the plan at the beginning of the situation was for me to take him over there I drive so I was happier to do that than have sort of him on public transport but since the situation has rapidly kind of worsened um i've decided we had a chat about it and he's now just here with me and facetiming daddy daily um which is a shame and

obviously it is unsettling natalie and daniel how well are you getting on after what i suspect was a difficult split and not that long ago a couple of years ago yeah we've been split for two years now we actually had this conversation yesterday and we said if this has happened a year ago I don't think we would have been mature enough to have had this discussion and come together because we were in a very different place a year ago as we were two years ago so you know we made a conscious decision at the beginning of this year that we had to be friends just for the sake of the girls um to be honest with you it's it's had its good days it's had its hard days it's had its mental days um it's a we're just

taking it day by day some days were really good some days we might have a few little arguments I say little but we're just like any other people, parents trying to get through this. It's not the perfect setup, but it's one that actually is working at the moment. But we are literally taking it day by day. Daniel, how would you describe it? Very differently to me, no doubt. Slightly differently to Nelly. Yeah, it has been a bit challenging, especially sort of taking myself out of my comfort zone to sort of move back in with Natalie full time. But before the coronavirus sort of hit the UK, we did make a conscious decision that we were going to focus on our friendship and build on that and co-parent the kids.

And I think, no, there's been sort of no better way to start than to kind of you know kick off with this whole coronavirus and isolation so you know it's gone well um it's you know i think constant communication is is the key to this whole situation and children are living their best lives but i was going to ask you that because obviously they're loving having mom and dad back together again but how concerned are you that they might get the wrong impression and think, actually, you're back together forever? Yeah, that is a thing that we have spoken about as well, because we have a six year old and an eight year old. So they're very young and very impressionable. And that's something that we do fear when all this does come to an end and daddy does go back to his house. Just how what kind of thing

what kind of toll it's going to take on them um and we don't have the answer yet um we're trying to keep things as separate as possible we sleep in separate beds um but there are things that we are doing as a family like we're eating dinner at the table as a family we're playing board games as a family we're going for walks as a family which actually before all this we never really did we'd always like i would take one to the park and we do things separately so it is a bit of um it's going to be a bit of a minefield when this all does blow over and we are kind of going back to whatever normal will be um and you know we're going to have to just take that day by day yeah i mean the great thing about this is that it's it's it's taught me to kind of really appreciate you know, we're going to have to just take that day by day. I mean, a great thing about this is that it's taught me to kind of really appreciate,

you know, the kids a lot more because, you know, when it all goes back to normal, when I go back home, I'm going to be missing days like this. And at least I can kind of look back and say, you know, I appreciate those moments. I appreciate those times. And when the kids get older and they ask questions, they can definitely look back and say, you know, daddy was there or we were all together as a family through this crisis. Andy, what impact do you reckon it's having on your son that he's not able to actually physically see his dad because of the restrictions on movement um i i think he he seemed absolutely

fine with it he seems to kind of be taking it as children often do in their stride i think there was a real excitement around um school finishing and uh this prospect of homeschooling excitement from him not so much from myself um and um so i think in a way it's all so up in the air and so different he's sort of seeing it as um uh a kind of holiday or something that's so unusual that i i don't feel um he doesn't seem to be sort of negatively impacted on it. And actually, the conversations he's having with his dad over FaceTime, they're actually more frequent than normal. So in some ways, even though the contact is different, it's still there and it's sort of quality time they're spending together um but yes when this

comes to an end it will be then about trying to re-establish that structure which took quite a while to get in the first place so yeah it's not ideal but we'll see how it goes just one point and it seems i've got something slightly wrong here um someone has let us know that um i said you're not supposed to go to the other parents house but the government advises that kids can travel between both parents homes would you be prepared to go and and let him travel there well this was that was my first suggestion was that i drive him his dad doesn't drive so i would say it's no problem for me to drive i kind of suggested that let's do this weekend and the first week after school closes and I said I'll just drive and pick him up whenever you know whenever you want I was also kind of desperate to be able to

catch up with a bit of work um absolutely agree with the conversation you had earlier you know balancing work and homeschooling was challenging so that was that was the idea it was then more through when the situation escalated and where his dad lives it's a block of flats he has a lodger and a friend was staying there as well and I just felt um and I got pressure from my own mom and you know family members that is it wise how many people are going to be in and out of the house and contact that he'll have um at his dad's house and so I did kind of go to his dad and say i'm anxious you know perhaps let's let's leave it for this weekend and just do facetime and he was okay with that i think he understood um and then we've taken it

from there but the same thing that i heard from daniel you know we don't know obviously how long this is going on for and it's constantly changing so i don't know if this continues whether we'll have to reassess the situation and then I'll drive them over there. Well Endy, Mackay, Natalie Duval, Daniel Dubier thank you all very much indeed for joining us this morning the very best of luck with managing this very difficult situation and again we'd love to hear from you if your parents if your children are divided between two parental homes let us know how are you managing it now still to come in today's program and appeal for you to take part in research on the effects of isolation on children we'll give you the details and the serial the third episode third episode of George Eliot's The Mill on the Floss.

And earlier in the week, you may have missed Linda LaPlante discussing her new novel, Buried, and Mary Berry's tips for cooking during the lockdown. And if you've missed the live programme, all you have to do is catch up. You download the BBC Sound app, and there we are. Now, on the 16th of of April a book will be published called Young Punks. It contains dozens of pictures of the movement that began in the 70s and has shots of really rather pale young men in string vests, leather jackets or tweedy suits generally with a cigarette and young women in short leather skirts,

fishnet tights and extraordinary eye makeup. The bands include The Clash, Suzie and the Banshees, Blondie and the Sex Pistols, and there's a rare insight into that famous shop in the King's Road run by McLaren and Westwood called Sex. And the photographer is Sheila Rock, who joins us today from Hawaii. Sheila, hello.

Hello. Hi. It's good evening to you. Yeah. I know you hadn't intended to become a photographer. How did it happen? By chance, really. I came to England really wanting to go into films, into documentaries. And through a series of events that never transpired.

And I met Nick Rock, who became my partner. And he was subsequently invited to go on the David Bowie tour. And I accompanied him on that. And that was in 1972, 73. And that was my first introduction to music. But I had inherited a camera when I was in school, and I'd always carried it around, but never really sort of understood what it could do. And my introduction to music was through going to America and seeing the whole madcap world that David Bowie and the tour created.

David Bowie was quite an introduction, I have to say. Now, you took the first really famous pictures of the Clash. How did you come to do those? I had met Lenny Kay, who was the guitarist for Patti Smith in New York, at the end of the Bowie tour. And he had said that he and Patty were coming to London, and that would I like to just go down and see a new band called The Clash at the ICA, which I did, but they didn't go down.

I just went down, and that was when I realized there was something extraordinary going on in London. People dressed up in the most bizarre, inventive ways. And in those days, there were no press officers, and the band were just hanging around. And I just went up to Joe Strummer and said, oh, I'd love to take some photographs with you. I'm sort of trying to be a photographer. And he said, sure. And I went down and saw the band in Bernie Rhodes' office, full of posters. And I think that was an early iconic

picture of the clash. Now, the clothes were obviously so important during the punk era. But how easy was it to just stroll into Sex in the King's Road and take pictures? It was a little scary for me. And I can't remember why I did that other than the whole punk movement was really just down the King's Road. But it was very easy. I went up to Jordan and I said, I'd love to take a photograph with you. And she said, fine. But she and I never spoke at all.

Hardly at all. She was the shop assistant, wasn't she? Yes, and she has become, I think, and is the face of punk. And I have since gotten to know her. But on that first meeting, I was so intimidated by how she looked. And I was able to do some really strong photographs. And I don't think anyone, there were few people actually photographed Jordan in the shop. And so some of the photographs from that time are rare and iconic. Now, I know you've taken lots of photos since punk,

but I was fascinated that you did a whole series of British people at the seaside. What were you looking for there? I think those photographs are kind of bittersweet images. I was after, again by chance, through different commercial jobs, I had the opportunity of traveling around the English coast, and I began to see the most extraordinary people. And I decided that it would be interesting to do sort of stoic and dignified portraits of the English. And I found that the more marginalized, economically marginalized the area, the more extraordinary the people, the more open-hearted they were.

And I somehow, you know, in the course of punk and the series that I did that I called Tough and Tender, I kind of realized how extraordinarily strong the British are. And I've always seen things very positively. I've seen in the punks a visual inventiveness and in people by the sea a sort of extraordinary courage under hardship. And I had an exhibition in 2016 at the Chelsea College of Art, at Chelsea Space, which married these two very early projects, one of the punks in 1977, and then much later, my last book project. And it was kind of interesting to see how both of them complement each other and how it was the view of the British.

Sheila Rock, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning from Hawaii and I guess you can go to bed now because it's very very late there thank you very much for being with us. Well we're now obviously in the school holidays so if you have children at home or as in my case next door, you know it's a bit different from when it was locked down from school. There's no pressure to do schoolwork because it's the holidays and young children just want to play, preferably with their friends. But they're only allowed a walk in the park each day with the family and no real mixing with mates in their homes. What will be the impact of this social isolation on young children in the long term? Well, a team of researchers at Sussex University is starting a study to find out

and is hoping you may get involved. Ali Lacey is leading the research from the School of Psychology. Ali, why do you think it's important to do this study? Well, we're living in a unique situation at the moment. We just don't know what the impact will be on children and families. This study, we're hoping to broaden the conversation to include children and families, which I think will be important for policymakers going forward. The pressure on parents at the moment is huge, as we all know, alongside health worries. Many families are dealing with financial stress, insecure employment,

as well as adapting to working from home, learning to homeschool, and essentially trying to fit in full-time childcare responsibilities with paid work. So family relationships, we know they're under pressure, perhaps amplified by the fact that we don't normally spend so much time together in the house without seeing other people and the restriction on leisure and social networks is likely to compound that and I think for children are going to be missing their friends and playing with their friends how much can online contact playdates help well it's interesting you say that. I've been talking to lots of parents this week about virtual playdates, so via Zoom and Houseparty, those sorts of platforms.

What we know is that children play in a very different way than adults communicate. So children play, they've shared experiences, movement of the body and activities, rather than sitting down and having a chat about how things are going which actually young children just can't sustain so it's going to be really interesting to see how virtual play dates whether a whether they're meaningful for children and b whether parents could be creative and how they're using technology to i guess to support that more physical interaction that children need so perhaps by putting the screen maybe a bit further away so that children can see each other's bodies, perhaps play games,

rather than sitting down and having a face-to-face conversation. But certainly technology is going to be an important medium to keep children connected. And we think particularly for children who haven't got siblings, who may not be seeing another child for perhaps six months. I was going to ask you how likely are siblings to fare better than the only children? I guess sibling relationships are going to be under the same similar sorts of pressure that the other relationships so I guess they might thrive and we might see some struggling as well in for the want of a better alternative,

I think siblings are turning to each other more and more. So those relationships might be quite important over the coming weeks and months. And we want to track really how those relationships develop and whether children without siblings are at a disadvantage in any way. What can parents of an only child do to try and help when play is so important to young children? I guess only children can have access to virtual play dates via technology that we just discussed.

Parents can also engage with their children in play. I think we've seen over the past few years that children have been engaging in far more structured activities than in the past. And the social calendars are typically quite busy in typical families. And actually, lockdown might be an opportunity to take a break from that, to pause, take stock, maybe engage in some imaginative creative play. And that's available to all children children whether they have siblings or not so so to really encourage children to spend some time in imaginative free play perhaps not worry too much about structured home learning I mean just to see play as a really integral part of their development. But how easily do parents learn to play I mean so many parents have forgotten how to play. What's the crucial thing

that you need to think of if you are actually playing with your kids? Well, one of the interesting threads that we've been discussing is actually parents don't need to direct the play. Children can do that on their own. And actually actually play is a skill like any other. And children need to practice doing it. So actually, it might be a liberating message to say it's OK to have a coffee while your kids go off. It's OK for them to be bored for a little bit, perhaps, and to engage in some creative, imaginative ways to escape that boredom. So all these things are really, really important skills for children to learn. And I suppose reading to your children is really important, isn't it?

Reading, I think, sharing stories, vicarious learning through, yes, exactly, through shared stories is really important. I've certainly been doing that with my own children this week and talking very much about how they're feeling, what they're missing and how things might change and be normal again in the future. So to keep the idea of social relationships very much alive with young children, I think, is important. Now, I mentioned that you're hoping for help

from people who listen to Woman's Hour. What sort of help are you hoping for? What are you hoping to hear from people? What we want, really, is to engage as many families as possible to join our study. We're asking parents to complete an initial online survey now, ideally as soon as possible, but at any time before the end of April. And then once you've completed that survey online, you'll be sent a follow-up questionnaire every three weeks until restrictions have ended and for a short time afterwards and this will allow us to track changes over time

and to really build up a clear picture of how COVID-19 restrictions are affecting families and children. What sort of questions are you asking? Just give me a couple of examples. So we're asking about parental mental health and well-being, emotional well-being of children, family routines and habits before COVID-19 and perhaps what strategies families have used to sustain those relationships since. Impact on sleep and other health behaviours, mood. So there's a really wide range of issues. So we're focusing on the social and the emotional well-being aspects primarily. Also looking at social factors, of course, what access to resources do families have, income, financial insecurity, all those sorts of issues are going to be really important

for us to track, to work out which families are most at risk of negative outcomes. And then on the flip side, families are may may see some benefits over this time what's your suspicion about the effect of what maybe six months of isolation at the moment we just don't know this is a completely unprecedented situation so um it could go either way my suspicion is that we're going to see a widening of the gap perhaps between families who are able to enhance their children's time through what we talked about through these virtual play dates through spending time as a family unit through shared stories and games that sort of thing and then the children who actually perhaps aren't having those experiences

and whose parents are struggling or they may be at risk of other uh of other negative outcomes so i think it's going to be important for educators and policymakers to reflect on the fact that when we go back to school there might be a widening of the gap in this we typically think of school as a bit of a leveler all all children get the same experiences regardless of of of their background and that's not going to be the case over the next six months. Children are going to have widely different experiences. And we might need to think as a nation how we're going to address that when this period has ended. So there may be significant differences in the way children cope

with going back to school? Yes, I think there might be. And in terms of whether there's any detriment to their social, emotional or mental health yes exactly i think there'll be there'll be um some families that that cope well and adjust well and some families that struggle and we really want to identify who those families more likely to struggle are i was talking to ali lacey lots of you emailed about how separated parents cope during lockdown. Yvonne emailed, I'm in the army and I'm a single parent. My child went to her dad the day before the lockdown.

This is the longest she's been away from me and she's coming back on Easter Sunday. We were worried that she wouldn't be able to see her dad for a period of seven weeks, so we took the decision to go early. We talk daily and I read books to her before bed. I'm working from home and her dad works from his home. His wife is a former teacher, so is supporting homeschooling as she works from home too. We're just trying to make it work. Lola emailed it's so difficult to be a joint parent during

this time as I wouldn't usually have direct contact with my son's father. He was very abusive physically and sexually and I left him when my son was a baby. This lockdown means that I have to deal with him myself. I've arranged apps so that correspondence is easier, but he refuses. So now all control is with him. My son is tearful about leaving me and his other sibling at home for more than two nights. If I can't get him to go to his dad, I'm threatened with court and prison. Because of these threats, I usually get a family member to do handover in holiday times, but now I can't ask anyone. As much as I understand and respect there is a court order, how will I practically get my child in the car? Christian emailed, I care for my two teenagers,

boy 15 and girl 16, with the help of my partner. My ex-wife and I switched from our usual shared pattern to a simple week-on-week-off routine to cope with the restrictions the lockdown imposes. The journeys between homes have been deemed essential to the well-being of children and families. Most challenging is the notion that the children must decide, which is peddled by many, including my ex-wife. I would suggest that while all of us, including the

children, need to avoid being completely disenfranchised, this is a particular time when the adults need to determine these arrangements, ideally in unison. Now, in tomorrow's Woman's Hour, we'll be asking how are people with an eating disorder being affected by COVID-19? With so much emphasis on food shortage and stockpiling, what's it like if you already have an unhealthy relationship with food? Hi, I'm Catherine Bowhart. And I'm Sarah Keyworth. We're comedians separately and a couple together,

and we're the host of You'll Do, the podcast that gives you a little insight into perfectly imperfect love yeah forget nights in with this one and hashtag couples goals we want to know the whys and hows of sticking with the people we love and asking a few of the questions that are meant to help us develop intimacy so why not give it a listen and subscribe to you'll do on bbc sounds I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.