Woman's Hour - Edith Eger, Breaking Relationship Patterns, Taking up Boxing at Fifty

Episode Date: January 27, 2020

Seventy five years ago today Soviet troops liberated the Nazi concentration camp Auschwitz Birkenau. January 27th is Holocaust Remembrance day. Edith Eger is a psychologist from Hungary. She was 16, an enthusiastic dancer and gymnast, when she was taken with her family to Auschwitz. She’s now 92. In 2018 she published a memoir about her experiences and how they shaped her life, it’s called “The Choice”. Tina Dahaley asked her what happened when they got to the camp in Poland: Aged fifty Marion Dunn joined a boxing gym. The fitness training proved incredibly hard but Marion soon became addicted to it and to learning how to punch with the best of them. She explains to Jane why she thinks boxing is such a wonderful activity.When you look back over your relationships do you see patterns? In the third in a series the story of a woman we are calling Katy who feels that her earliest experiences shaped what she looked for and needed from her partners.Zakiya Mckenzie, a writer from Bristol, talks to Jane about spending a year as Forestry England's writer in residence and her attempts to make the green movement more black.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Edith Eger Interviewed guest: Marion Dunn Interviewed guest: Zakiya Mckenzie Reporter: Tina Dahaley Reporter: Millie Chowles Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning to you. Now, today you'll know that 75 years to the day Soviet troops liberated the Nazi concentration camp at Auschwitz-Birkenau. And January the 27th is now Holocaust Remembrance Day. Edith Eger is a psychologist from Hungary. She was just 16,

a really enthusiastic dancer and gymnast, when she was taken with her family to Auschwitz. She is now 92. In 2018, she published a memoir about her experiences and how they shaped her life. It's an excellent book called The Choice. Tina Dehealy asked her what happened when she and her family got to the camp in Poland. My father was separated immediately and my mum and my older sister Magda, who likes to be called Magdalena, is alive and well. She lives in Baltimore. She is going to tell you that she's 97 years old? No, she's going to tell the angel of death, Dr. Mengele. I had nightmares. I still do, because in America, the children were separated from parents now,

and I was back again. So I don't forget, or I don't really truly overcome what happened, but I came to terms with it. And that's what I'm like, to really tell women that you cannot control the past or change the past, that I live today, I can only touch you now. Edith, how did you learn that your mother had died? When Dr Mengele asked me whether she's my mother or she's my sister. I never could forgive myself for 40 years. I'm still working on it. I said, that's my mother.

So she took my mother and pointed her to go to the left and grabbed me and threw me on the other side, which meant life. And the way I learned that, because I was asked by one of the inmates, who was a kapo, and I asked, when will I see my mother? And she pointed at the chimney and said that, your mother is burning there, you better talk about her in past tense. And my sister hugged me and she said, the spirit never dies. And I'm hoping that my book is going to truly honor my parents, because one of the most beautiful gifts of God is the gift of memory. And the book is truly hopefully going to honour my parents and grandparents and other

members of the family as well that they didn't die in vain. It absolutely does and you go into detail about those memories in the book we learned that it wasn't the last you saw of this man the angel of death you ended up having to dance for him. Yes, yes, yes. Things were so chaotic. We were completely shaven and there we were in our nakedness. And next thing I knew, we were in a barrack and he came in and I didn't know who he was,

but he wanted to know who are the newcomers who can entertain him. And so my friends threw me in front of him. I didn't realize what was going on, but I remember as I danced for him, I pretended I checked out just like women do now and little girls do when they are sexually abused and I closed my eyes

and I pretended that the music was Tchaikovsky and I was dancing the Romeo and Juliet at the Budapest Opera House and when women tell me now I don't know how to tell you that I was sexually abused because you were in Auschwitz. And my answer is, you were more in prison than I was because I knew who was the enemy. I was told I'm never going to get out of here alive. I just had to learn how to imagine that I am innocent and they were the prisoners. You left Auschwitz, but before you went to America, you ended up in another camp,

which was also very bad. What happened there? When I left Auschwitz was in December 1944. I was going to get my tattoo and I didn't. And I was told I'm going to the gas chamber. They don't want to waste an ink on me. And just before that, I realized that my sister was in another place, in another pile, and I knew we had to be together. See, survivors have to be quick decision makers. We don't have time to say, why me?

We have to say, what now? And I remember I was doing acrobatics, so my sister ran over and we were together and we were put on a train carrying ammunitions for the Nazis and we became slave laborers. found myself down, way down in Austria called Mauthausen. And we stood in front of the crematoria and then they changed their minds and I survived what is called the death march. And what I want to really tell you that all we had was each other then because when we stopped, we were shot right away. And the girls that I shared the bread with, when I got a piece of bread for Dr. Mengele for dancing, they carried me so I wouldn't die. I think it's very, very important to say that even today, all we have is each other as women. And we are not strong women, we are women of strength. You made, you demonstrated that strength,

you had typhoid, weighed five stone, you made it to America, got married, had children. How did you cope after what had happened to you? Gunski and him, one of the worst thing that I hope no one will ever, ever experience because cannibalism broke out. And when people were eating other people's flesh, today I beg people to watch The Sound of Music because it was there. And I spoke to God and God showed me that I still had grass to eat. If you watch the movie, it's that grass that I look down,

and even then I chose one blade of grass over the other. That's why the book is called The Choice, because I don't have time to be a victim, and even then I chose one blade of grass over against the other. The more choices you have in life, the more you will enjoy being a survivor and never a victim of anything or anyone. And your book is called The Choice.

Yes. Why did you decide to write this now? I know it's taken 10 years and you trained as a psychologist. And I'm more grateful because I have three children. I have five grandchildren and I have three generations, three great grandsons. So that makes me four generations. And I feel that I will die very happily knowing that my great-grandsons will read my book and knowing that they come from good blood.

And I am very proud, too, of my ancestors, that they made it in a desert. They made it. And so I hope that people will be very proud of the ancestors and find hope in hopelessness and never, ever give up. It is. I'm sure they will be very proud of the ancestors and find hope in hopelessness and never ever give up. It is, I'm sure they will be. And you're trying to help others through your work and what you do, not only through the book, but you are practicing right now. Yes, I'm practicing. Tell me about what you're doing at 91.

Yes, I couldn't believe but to tell you about the gift of God that I was able to go back to school, graduating with honors, and also teaching everyone who comes to me. And people don't come to me, they're sent to me. And I call myself a guide from victimization to empowerment, from darkness to light. And most of all, to look at the prison that is in your own mind and show you that the key is in your pocket. And who comes to see you? What's your specialism? I was able to go back to Auschwitz when I worked with two paraplegics, and one of them was totally against everything. Why me? Why me? And the other one said to me, you know, God gave me a second chance.

I'm sitting in a wheelchair. I can look at my children's eyes much closer, and I realized that I couldn't take them further than I have gone myself. And I felt like an imposter, and I decided to go back to Auschwitz, to go back to that lion's den, to look at the lion in the face, to be able to see the place where I danced for Dr. Mengele. And when I was coming out, there was a man in uniform. And for a moment, I thought I was back in Auschwitz. But then I realized that I had a blue American passport in my pocket. And I was able to begin to forgive myself that I survived.

That is the voice of Edith Eger. She was on Women's Hour in 2018, talking there to Tina Dehealy. So many wonderful lines in that, not least the idea of finding hope in hopelessness. And there'll be coverage of the events at Auschwitz across BBC Radio and television today. At seven o'clock tonight on BBC Two, there is a commemorative event from Westminster. And there's also a drama you'll want to see. It's called The Windermere Children, and it's on BBC Two at nine o'clock tonight. And on the Woman's Hour website, another chance to watch our video featuring Edith's top four lessons for living your best life. And a few people I would have thought better to learn from than Edith Eager. Now, later in this programme, we're going to be talking about well the beauty of trees and forests and our guest there is Zakia McKenzie who is a Forestry England writer in

residence and she's with us actually at the moment Zakia we're going to talk to you later but looking forward to that and actually we'd love to hear from people if they want to tell us about their favourite tree perhaps send us an image of your favourite tree or your favourite forest and I know Zakia you'd be keen on, wouldn't you? Definitely. Yeah, she'd love to see them. So you can send us some lovely pictures on the Instagram, at BBC Women's Hour, at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter as well, of course. Now, taking up boxing in your 50s,

could it be the way for me to finally achieve bodily perfection? Who knows? Marion Dunn is a good woman to ask, the author of The Boxing Diaries. Welcome to the programme, Marion. Thanks, Jane. A lab technician who's, well, kind of, you stumbled your way into a boxing gym, didn't you?

I did, yes. I was in my late 40s, feeling a bit kind of overweight and unfit. And I had been quite fit in my 30s, and I thought, I really need to do something. I need to sort of take the bull by the horns and do something. So I wasn't earning a great deal of money as a school lab technician in northern Lancashire,

so I googled cheap gyms in my area and came across one. And I thought, oh, perhaps they've just got a wait-through moment to the public. That'll do me. That'll be fine. Bobbed along, and it turned out to be a traditional boxing gym. And? Not quite what you were expecting. It wasn't quite what I was expecting. It was four men, four boxing bags,

in a sort of linoleum-floored, painted brick kind of traditional boxing gym sort of environment. And I thought, do you know what, I'm going to just give this a go. Yeah, I want to know a little bit more about the way in which they greeted your arrival. Was it overwhelming enthusiasm or something else, Marion? No, it was enthusiasm. Was it? No, it was enthusiasm. I mean, I'd presented myself and the coach in residence, whom I'll call Gerard, just looked me up and down in a nice way. And he said, how fit do you think you are, love? And I lied, actually. I said, for my age, not bad. Well, to be fair, you've been, been I think potholing was your interest. Yeah but this was a

very long time ago and really any fitness that I'd had from that evaporated about the age of 35 so I really was kind of staring at middle age spread like staring down the barrel of a gun to be honest. Yeah I mean I've read some of your writing in the boxing diaries and you say that you were trapped in gentle terminal decline. Oh, yes, that describes it perfectly. Yes, I was. So I decided really it was a kind of use it or lose it scenario. And the coach said, you know, that's fine. I'll ask you again in six weeks. So I had six weeks of the most sort of unimaginable training I think is the best way

of describing it where I ate in places that I didn't know I could ache and um but you know what right from the off I absolutely loved it why um I think it was the discipline um the hard work uh the camaraderie, the encouragement. I've got to, right, relatively early on in the conversation, just mention the safety aspect of this. I mean, presumably you always wore headgear. Well, I mean, for the first 18 months, I was just doing boxing fitness training. I wasn't actually getting in the ring.

And indeed, you know, if you do get in the ring, the energy burn levels are really quite unsurpassed. So you do have to be reasonably fit before you go in. And in good boxing gyms, there's no obligation to actually do any boxing in the ring if you don't want to. Many people come along and just do the fitness. But after 18 months, I thought, well, I'll give it a go. So I got in the ring and just did some kind of gentle sparring under the eyes of a fully qualified coach. And I found that I really enjoyed it.

And you are, can you describe your proportions? You're about the same height as me, aren't you? So, yeah, I mean, I'm five foot two. I don't think by any stretch of the imagination I'm a self-like figure. No, you're far from big. No, come on, you're not far from big. Nor would I really want to be, actually. So I'm just a kind of normal woman shape, I would say.

Yes, but are you a flyweight, bantam? What are you? I think technically I'm a welterweight. Which means? Well, I'm about the weight I am. I can't bring the weight categories immediately to mind. No, OK, you're about the weight you are. I'll settle for about the weight you are.

And Gerard, the man we're calling Gerard, was he your inspiration? Was he hard on you, would you say? He was, but in a good way. In a good way. So, I mean, what you want from a coach is somebody who will push you, but will a good way, in a good way. So, I mean, what you want from a coach is somebody who will push you, but will push you within sensible limits.

And often he pushed me, you know, just beyond what I thought I could actually do. But, you know, in a reputable boxing gym, you'll find that the coaches are incredibly shrewd and skilled and they will know, you know, far that they can push you tell me how you first learned how to form a punch because i have to say i just would have literally no idea what to do well um boxing when executed properly is a bit like a a dance um you know the object of the exercise in a in a good amateur gym is is not to pulverise your opponent at all. It's to outwit them.

And it's really, I would think, akin to dancing in terms of learning the particular moves. It's about throwing your weight about in a good way. So making use of your weight. Making use of your weight, indeed, yes. By the perfect, is it hip swivel? Is that the key movement? Yes. I mean, basically people talk about getting the power up from the floor. And what you're really doing is you're using your legs and hips to apply momentum to the upper part of the body. I'd like you to try that for us now. Zakira and I can watch this. So stand up.

This is going to be very embarrassing, but here we go. It's the first time. I know Mike Costello, but I'll try and do this justice. Marion is standing up. I have to say she's moved away from the microphone. So we hope very much you can get the sense of this. Right, you're in position, one foot in front of the other. Yeah, you've got your fists are up there, right by your chin.

Go, Marion. Wow. And out comes the... the other. Yeah, you've got your fists are up there, right by your chin. Go Marion! Wow. And out comes the, now I think that's your right arm you've just thrust. Come a bit nearer. Was it actually the left? Back to the microphone. For the record, it was the left jab. The left jab. I'm afraid that was my motor skills letting me down there.

I was thinking, what is that, the left? Is that the right? I can't tell from my own position. That was a left jab. Now, what's a jab? So the jab is a workaday punch that's used by boxers to kind of, for want of a better word, soften up your opponent in a nice way. Soften up your opponent. You see, some people would argue this is the problem with boxing. The language of it is pretty vicious.

I mean, like any sport, boxing has a bit of an edge to it. But really, at the level that I do it, which is really very much the lower end of the amateur level, I would argue that it is relatively safe. And I think the key thing is doing it under the supervision of a trained coach um i think the biggest risks really actually come from uh somebody making a genuine mistake um rather than you know which you might be on the receiving end or when someone makes well you know occasionally you are but i mean you know uh the the same is true in football or rugby as well. And in fact, most of our boxers are off at any one time with football injuries rather than boxing injuries.

OK, well, that's interesting itself. Would you box against a man when you were training? Yes. I mean, often not very successfully, I have to say, because boxing somebody taller than yourself is quite difficult. But again, under the watchful eye of a coach. The difficulty that I have at my age, to be perfectly frank, is speed. I've got reasonable aerobic fitness, reasonable strength, reasonable flexibility. But I think one of the difficulties with age, despite some mitigating factors, is actually having the speed. You're 56 now. I am. You've no intention of packing it in yet, have you? Absolutely none. As long as my physiotherapist's happy, I'm happy. How many times a week are you going to the gym? I'm going twice to train with my boxing club

and then I do a further fitness session just on my own at a local gym that has a boxing bag. And to any woman who's thinking of doing this, you would say the camaraderie is excellent and you will not be mocked? Because I think that's the most, that would certainly be the one thing I'd be concerned about. It's a very interesting question that, Jane,

and one that I seem to have about. It's a very interesting question that Jane and one that I've seemed to have been asked continually. Absolutely not. The reception that I have had at my now normal boxing gym but at other boxing gyms too is I've been welcomed with open arms, treated with respect, courtesy, politeness. There's only one qualification for stepping inside the boxing gym and that's being prepared to work hard. That's the only qualification. Boxing gyms are incredibly welcoming places and I haven't received even a degree of sexism, not in the slightest. And the men and women I've come across have been nothing but polite, friendly, encouraging and dedicated.

I've got to say, Marion, you're one of the most positive people I think I've ever met. And it's wonderful. It's absolutely brilliant. Thank you very much for being on the programme. Thank you so much for having me. It's been thrilling.

I'd have to say, Marion, you're a bit of a Woman's Hour fangirl. She was going all around the studio looking at everything and she did point out with some justification that she has a licence and she thinks she may as well have a look at what she's bought. I'm totally with her. Marion, thank you very much

for coming in. Thank you so much, Jane. The Boxing Diaries is the name of her book. Now, tomorrow, I'm looking forward to this, we're talking about, well, it's connected to Gwyneth Paltrow's Goop, which you may or may not be aware of. You may well have seen some of the Goop Lab programmes on Netflix. I was sentenced to watch one of them over the weekend. And I have to say, it's 30 minutes of my life I'm not going to be getting back. But what is Goop? Well,

it describes itself as cutting edge wellness advice from doctors, vetted travel recommendations and a curated shop of clean beauty, fashion and home. So tomorrow we're asking, why are so many of us susceptible to what is really the pseudoscience of beauty and wellness treatments? And actually, does it matter to any of us whether these treatments work or not tomorrow on the program i'll be talking to a dermatologist to a self-confessed beauty obsessive and to a cognitive neuroscientist that's on the program tomorrow and do take a look at goop lab if you have netflix now the third in our series are very personal stories about damaging relationship patterns. A woman we're going to call Katie is explaining here why her early life has shaped her love life. And the reporter here is Millie Chowles. One of the things I looked into on my

mission to understand why we do the things we do in relationships is how our early life experiences can really set the template for our adult relationships I think getting some understanding of that can be a really vital part of the puzzle so for the third part of this series on breaking relationship patterns I've come to meet a woman

we're calling Katie at her home Hi, hello How are you? I'm getting a little printer woman we're calling Katie at her home. Hi. Hello. How are you? I'm getting a little printer. Oh, nice. I love it. Tell me about your first love.

We met each other at secondary school and I was really young. I was about 16 and we were best friends originally we'd known each other for a while and we decided to have a relationship because you just got on with each other so so well it was the longest relationship i've been in we were together for about five years you know when you know someone really really well you kind of just like you finish each other's sentences and all that kind of stuff we had a really really like nice time but then there was a point where things started changing and instead of having that warm fuzzy feeling it started turning into a weird paranoid kind of I don't know where my place is now in this relationship kind of

feeling and it all stemmed from my partner at that time he had been smoking a lot of weed and I think that in turn gave him weed induced psychosis so he was really struggling with his own mental health at the time and we were really young and they don't teach you how to deal with mental health so it was kind of like something that was contained within our relationship and it was only something that I saw and unfortunately bore the brunt of as well his mental health was deteriorating a lot they deteriorated really fast actually and over about a year towards the end of their relationship he was really verbally abusive and physically abusive and made sure that everything I did was like under lock and key and he knew everything that was happening and if I

didn't say what was happening or what I was doing or where I was going, then that was like the end of the world, you know. I didn't necessarily take myself out of that relationship. Somebody else stepped in who was a friend who realised that something was really, really wrong. And then there was an incident that involved a person I don't even know and they took me in off the street with my friend because they were going to call the police because they thought it was a random person attacking us

so at the time when I realized that this person I didn't even know thought that this was really serious I had to step back and go wow this maybe this is really really bad and I tried really hard to get out of the relationship at the time I stepped out I pulled myself out my friend tried to keep me away but I kept on going back I think a lot of the time I have been drawn massively to like people who are slightly broken or like lost lambs and it's because of how I'd grown up and I'd not really been in a very supportive house when I was little and my parents weren't very well and that was all I knew and I think when you're young the people that are closest to you like your parents or guardians whoever's looking after you the way that they love you or look after you is that's your first understanding

of of care and of love if it's bad if it's traumatic that kind of understanding stays with you throughout your whole life and you play out your understanding of love and care in all of your relationships as well eventually I came to another city to escape that and how old were you then? I was about 20, 21 at that time. And I think at the time, because I was so young and I'd just come to a new city, I was really excited to, one, be in my own headspace and be myself again and make new friends. But at the same time, I had this weird sense of like there's this dark cloud hanging over me because of what had happened before. So in my head, I was like was like well I'll make friends I'm gonna find a new boyfriend and build myself back up again and I think just because I was so excited but also so used to having someone with me I immediately fell into another relationship. Where did you meet what was what drew you to that person I was at university and I was on a bus going

somewhere and this person was on a bus they ever had me talking with my friend about trying to find a party to go to to make friends and he said oh well if you come to our place we're having a party on the weekend I think I was doing a lot of soul searching and this person seemed like they had everything so spiritually put together. And I think it was that spiritual element that really drew me to them. And they were a lot older than me as well. So in my head I was like, this other person that I just left was really young and it all went wrong. So I'd want to be with someone older and obviously they'll have experience and stuff. We just clicked really well.

We'd sit and talk for hours about like politics and spirituality and we just got each other. So you had this sort of very deep and quite profound connection. You know, you felt there was like a real depth to this person. So when did things start to take a turn? We spent a lot of time with each other it was too much time with each other and I did have a really positive friendship group and I still do now with the same friends with the same people now but I just as soon as I started seeing this person I just didn't really see them as much we moved in together and I didn't actually want to but he talked me into doing it and he started trying to make me feel bad for a lot of things and he'd make it seem as if I was making him feel bad about stuff on purpose.

He just seemed a little bit depressed and not very happy with things but he would make it my problem if I didn't want to cook food for us it would be really really bad or if I wanted to spend time with friends it was like I don't care about him or I'm just being like selfish or something like that and all of these things at the time they'd be isolated and seem really separate but then the more they happened the more there was this big picture like being made and I just remember sitting down and thinking I don't understand how I've let this happen to me again I was like I need to literally just go see my girlfriends and talk to them about this person it gave me more confidence and understanding and awareness that it was a really bad relationship to be in so then I started thinking about leaving

and um eventually just left that relationship did your ex accept that easily your decision to end the relationship no not at all no and he got really upset and he wasn't upset in an angry way he he was upset and uh how could you do this to me? And saying that he was going to like kill himself and stuff. And it was because of me and it's my fault. Or he'd be like, I didn't go to work like for this whole week. And I stayed in bed because of you. To try and make sure that I felt as bad as possible.

How did you deal with that? Because that's so hard, isn't it? To deal with someone threatening to kill themselves and making it your fault? I think because I'd at that point spoken so much to friends and I'd think to myself, well, I've heard people say things like this to me before. My mum, she's got bipolar and she had lots of schizophrenic episodes and my dad wasn't around and she would say things like that all the time because I was the only person that she would interact with she would direct everything at me by saying why have you made me like this why are you doing all these things hearing someone at a young age constantly telling me that I was the cause of all of these horrible issues there

must be a part of me that kind of believed it because that's all I knew. I must have been drawn to people that bring that up in myself and that have similar behaviour. So when the relationship ended, you were getting some counselling? I had one session of counselling just before I'd left and then afterwards I got a lot more because I was

aware that I was being drawn to certain kinds of people in relationships and it was really triggering for me because it was bringing up a lot of things from the past and things to do with my parents and stuff. That period of reflection was probably the healthiest thing I could have ever done for myself. I had this person who was giving me the tools to not only see what was happening on this like timeline of events but also gave me tools to move forward from that as well without the counselling plus having friends around me that I could speak as openly about anything as I'd liked. Without that I'd probably just be seeing the same people

and doing the same things and probably damaging my own mental health massively. What were those tools that you were given, do you think, to move forward? It was making sure that I had as much of a sense of self before I go into any more relationships. Like setting standards, like knowing, you know, this doesn't give me any sense of growth or this doesn't give me any sense of growth or this doesn't give me any sense of

worth knowing what it feels like to be in codependent relationships knowing the signs of what they are and if someone starts questioning what I wanted to do all the time or if someone wanted me to spend time with them all the time if someone didn't just let me be myself and have my own space and have my own headspace and all that stuff then I'd I'd have this kind of like list in my brain of like okay these are warning signs I remember sitting down in the living room with someone that I'd started seeing and I was with my friends and we're watching a program and they seemed like they just weren't having a good time which is fine and I said oh I'm gonna go to bed and I said oh I'm gonna stay up and

and they said no we're gonna go to bed and I was just looked at them and I was like no I'm I'm gonna stay up like why why are you forcing me to go to bed with you and then in my head I was like that's one of those behaviors again it's like very controlling behavior and I nipped that in the bud straight away I was just the next day I was like I don't think this is gonna work out I learned to say no I don't think I said no enough before where are you now with this stuff now I'm in like a really healthy relationship I'm always really happy to talk about things that might be difficult or really happy to say if I don't like something and and I'm happy to be challenged about stuff and they're happy to be challenged about things

that feels like a good base for a loving trusting relationship in the grand scheme of things you're actually quite young to have broken free essentially from this destructive and unhealthy and very painful pattern of relationships that you're in how do you think you managed to get out of it so quickly because I know lots of people who've been kind of going around the mill for decades or stay in those relationships for years and years and years I think I have had a lot of outside intervention I think without those outside interventions from friends and counsellors and professionals I think without them I probably would be doing the same things or it would have taken me a lot longer to help myself.

You go back to her and I go back to black And the young woman we call Katie was in conversation with our reporter Millie Chowles, and you can go to BBC Sounds to hear the two other episodes in that series. They were originally broadcast on Woman's Hour on Tuesday and Wednesday of last week. So to Zakia McKenzie, who is the Forestry England writer in residence. Zakia, welcome. Good to see you. Thank you. What is the job of a forestry writer in residence?

What do you do? I spent a lot of time meandering through the forest and writing about it, reflecting on it very simply. That really was it. Just spending lots of time immersed in the woods and enjoying it, feeling a lot of different things and then going back and reflecting on it. Some of it was written, you know, in the forest itself. enjoying it, feeling a lot of different things and then going back and reflecting on it. Some of it was written, you know, in the forest itself. A lot of and then I had a lot of it that was written at home kind of after reflecting. This is your poetry or prose? Yeah, poetry prose. There's a bit of journalism in it.

So my collection is out now of, you know, my collection from the forests. And it is a mix which I didn't expect. So it's a mix of poetry prose and a bit of kind of personal essay. We'll talk more about that in a moment, but a little bit more about yourself. You were born in Britain, and then you grew up in Jamaica. Yes. Now, whereabouts in Jamaica? Kingston. So in town, city, you know, city girl in Kingston. But when I originally moved back to Jamaica, so I was a baby, I am the baby of the family and I was still a baby at the time. I imagine my parents probably didn't have a big social circle in Jamaica at the time. So we would go every weekend to the countryside to my grandmother's where all of us had our first set

of friends in the country. And so that's where I spent a lot of my time as a youngster as well. So living in town, but lots of time in the country. And in forests? So it's different. It's in the hills. It was in a mountain. So in a way, it's not a forest as you think about it here. I'm always very keen to say it is not woodland. It's not woods as we see in England. So they are kind of different type of sites. So we have a lot of tropical rainforest environment. And so where I was at kind of the foothills of the Blue Mountains, which is, you know, the highest point in the island, it was a bit of tropical rainforest. Getting a job like the one you have now, it's actually not easy to do, is it? I know you applied not really knowing how many other people

had applied and you were pretty amazed to get it. Absolutely. I think if I, if I knew, you know, I keep saying my naivety worked for me because I didn't really know the scale. Yeah. Sometimes naivety is a good thing. Yeah, because if I had known that it was such a sought after position, I might not have, I probably just would have thought, no, no, no, no. You know, there's a point. What prompted you to have a go? So I think, first of all, one of my co-workers sent it to me.

So Tamsin, my co-worker, sent it to me. And I think quite often, you know, if people believe in me, I might think, oh, why not? I'll give it a try. And so I thought it was just something different. And to be honest, I wanted to explore the English landscape. And I thought this was a really neat way to do it. And why is it? And I don't think this is a generalisation, I think it's a fact, but please correct me, that we don I would say with a lot of the work that I do, we actually, when we bring people out, we see that they really do love it. And so quite often it is facilitating it. So people might not want to go by themselves. You know, they might need a group to go in.

So we have these group trips. But also, I think for a lot of people who live in the city and, you know, a lot of black people live in the cities, Afro-Caribbean people, you know, BME people live in the cities. The countryside is quiet and lonely and scary. It can be. And, you know, I mean, I experienced that myself. Sometimes it was just way too quiet. And I'm a person who can appreciate it. But sometimes it was too quiet.

You're based in Bristol, aren't you? I am. Yeah, which is quite close to any number of wonderful locations. Tell me about, it's the Forest of Dean, I think that has sort of grabbed you. Yes. Yes. So I really love, you know, I keep speaking about, kind of, there were a lot of industry there. And I think for that reason, there's a lot of history that you can get from people who live and work there. And for me, that's where a lot of the richness came. And there's a lot of storytelling, folktales, you know, the origins of the wild boar that still plague the forest.

Right. There's so many stories in there that kind of really drew me in and I ended up you know finding a lot of things to write about from the forest of Dean. And a lot of people these days talk about mindfulness and actually even if you know nothing about it who doesn't get solace from just looking at a tree and just acknowledging how long it's been there and all the things that have happened whilst it has been alive yes I mean absolutely for me that was you know it was really refreshing to be kind of in the middle of these forests and have um you know the the experience of being able to be and not have anything to look you know anyone looking to me for anything because I think in the middle of these forests um quite often you forget that you have a life back in the city and you have things to rush towards and it was very

grounding for me to be in these spaces and I think for a lot of people as well to be out and kind of have the uh you know the feeling of being refreshed and and and recuperate in in the forest it's not always like that and it wasn't always like that for me as well but it was a part of my experience so you hope your hope is that more people of color more people from the city will feel empowered this is this country the countryside belongs to all of us doesn't it absolutely all need we have every right to get out there and to love it as you have done yes yeah absolutely and so I think for me it's definitely about getting city people like myself out to the countryside and kind of enjoying it and finding connections of things that um you know that we we do and we live within the city um and you know so i take out a lot of children to the countryside and quite often you

know when they just get there they don't want to go they're worried about the trainers they don't want to walk through the mud they've got box fresh trainers they don't want to get muddy fresh even though we tell them

don't wear your best trainers stick your trainers in the machine I've done it myself or get your mum to do it if you're a child or your dad

but usually by the end of those trips we have them saying can we walk through the mud Zakia McKenzie who's been working with Forestry England

and lots of you enjoyed hearing from her this morning a listener called Jilly says my favourite trees and I've painted them a dozen times are at Nap Hill Plantation also known as the Nearly Home Trees they're in Devon but to people who live in Cornwall they mark the arrival home

isn't that interesting? I didn't know that Anna says I love all trees plantation trees, the ones I see from my bed, birch and the trees who appear to weep. And this from Emily. I'm just arriving at the woods where I work in Pembrokeshire in Wales. It's my day off, but the landowner has kindly let me come and spend time to make an axe handle for the axe head I got for Christmas from my dad-in-law, my father-in-law. My favourite tree is oak. I love how huge and majestic they are.

So knowing. But my axe handle is being made from willow. Not ideal, but it's what I have. It is my sixth attempt at this handle and my grumpy one-year-old is thankfully asleep, so I hope she stays sleeping so I can get on the shave horse and finish off this handle. Wish me luck. I can't wait to hear all about trees on Woman's Hour. Emily, that is just something, I want to be inside your life. That sounds fascinating you're about as i sit here with a slightly snuffly snuffly lows nose uh drinking a coffee you're about to get on a shave horse in pembrokeshire i just excuse me while i blow the nose uh right um that's just amazing and

yep i do hope your one-year-old was suitably cooperative as you set about that task. Now, Marion Dunn. This is from Richard. See, even you can't tell left from right. It's a thing an awful lot of women have trouble with, turning maps around, giving directions with hand gestures, etc. Something very, very few men have a problem with. Why don't you look into it? We did. Yes, Lucinda's reminded me we did do that that item i have never been able to tell my left from my right either my own left from my right or indeed anybody else's left from right i don't think it's going to change realistically is it um but thanks richard we welcome your involvement she said clenching every buttock well i've only got two um lots of positivity about

boxing i joined a boxing gym several years ago says this listener it was in southwark in london i was several stone overweight and over 40 and i never felt judged or looked down on just supported and encouraged i loved it i never felt more strong and supported in a gym in my life. Well, there you go. That echoes exactly what Marion said about the atmosphere in the gym that she goes to. Chris loved the item about ladies boxing, which I watch live and is sometimes better than the men's. I'm a 54 year old man. I love the programme and I listen most days. I retired in May and started boxing as I was carrying too much weight. I loved it, lost loads of weight, but it encouraged arthritis in my shoulder and so I can no longer box. So your speaker is right,

it is an amazing sport, but be careful with your age. Love the show, keep up the great job. Thank you, Chris. Chris has gone into my top two. Richard, you're very much in second place at the moment. Now, I really enjoyed your interview today with Marion about her passion for boxing. So another listener, a couple of years ago, I was having a stressful time with work and was given free passes to some boxing classes at a trendy local gym. Hitting that punch bag for the first time in my life was better than any therapy session and more relaxing than a massage in a posh spa. The feeling of walking out of that gym having got rid of all the stress and the anxiety about work I'd been holding in

was so blissful it felt almost like a religious experience. I would highly recommend boxing to anyone going through a stressful and anxious time. What better way to purge emotions than getting them out of your body with your fists on a punch bag? Great show today, as always. That's from Elizabeth. I tell you what, there's a lot of positivity circulating today about the programme. Thank you very much for that. We do appreciate it. I mean, let's face it, for all of us, the last Monday in January can be a little bit of a armpit of the year type experience.

So thank you for all the encouragement. I agree, actually. We've had some very positive messages on the programme today. It's always worth hearing them, isn't it? Tomorrow, and I'm very much looking forward to this, we are talking about our susceptibility as women, though not just as women, clearly, as our emailers exemplify this morning, why we are susceptible to the very, very popular pseudoscience around all kinds of beauty treatments and so-called wellness.

Yes, Gwyneth, I am looking at you when I say that. So looking forward to that. We have a neuroscientist on the programme tomorrow and somebody who describes themselves as a beauty obsessive. So tomorrow, two minutes past ten, or of course here on the podcast. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Anna Delvey was due to inherit $67 million. I'm so excited about what the future holds.

She secured huge investments for a project in New York. She was very confident in her words. And yet, it was all a lie. She's a con artist. Join journalist Vicky Baker as she delves into a real-life scandal. We'll mix drama with documentary to tell the story of Anna Delvey's rise and fall.

Fake Heiress, a new six-part podcast on BBC Sounds. I was watching this whole thing happen thinking it can't be true. Download the free app to listen. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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