Woman's Hour - Edna O'Brien obit, SEND education, Republicans and women, Aigul Akhmetshina

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

The Irish novelist Edna O'Brien has died aged 93. President of Ireland Michael D Higgins said she was "one of the outstanding writers of modern times". She is perhaps best known for her portrayal of women's lives against repressive expectations in Irish society. Her first novel, The Country Girls, was published in 1960 and became part of a trilogy that was banned in Ireland for their references to sexual expression and social issues. Nuala McGovern speaks to Irish novelist Eimear McBride, who knew Edna.Parents, children and politicians all agree that the SEND education system for children with special educational needs and disabilities is 'broken'. How can it be fixed? The Local Government Association and the County Councils Network have published a 'landmark' report which warns that the current system is failing children and too adversarial. Reporter Carolyn Atkinson investigates. The Government accepts educational outcomes are 'flatlining', as parents and local authorities are pitted against each other. But 12 chief executives of leading childrens' charities are warning that some of the suggestions in the report won't work. Katie Ghose, CEO of Kids, joins Nuala in the studio to discuss.The US presidential election race now looks set, with Donald Trump and Kamala Harris attempting to win the confidence of US voters. Today, we're taking a closer look at the Republicans and how their policies might shape women's rights in America. Nuala speaks to the BBC US Special Correspondent Katty Kay, who's also written four New York Times bestselling books on women and work. Hailed as the 'Carmen of our time', mezzo-soprano Aigul Akhmetshina was chosen to lead the cast of Bizet’s immortal masterpiece in eight international productions in one season. At the age of 27, Aigul has made history as the youngest artist ever to take on the title role at both the Royal Opera House in London and the Metropolitan Opera in New York. Her debut album features a portrait of her famed Carmen and other operatic arias, including a Bashkort folk song. She joins Nuala to discuss her music, and perform live in the studio.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello, you are very welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, the Democrats, Kamala Harris, has grabbed the headlines over the past couple of weeks. But today we're going to look at how the Republicans and Donald Trump's strategy is shaping up after President Biden's exit from that campaign. We've a lot to talk about. I'll be speaking to our US special correspondent, Cathy Kay. Also today, the call for an overhaul of the SEND system in schools in England.

That is the system that educates children with special educational needs and disabilities. You'll hear from one family who are trying to dramatically change how it works, among others. Now, if you have had direct experience of the SEND system, I'd like you to text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. you to text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. I know a lot of you have been through it. You've told me some heartbreaking tales before.

Do get in touch because this is just part of our coverage of the overhaul of the SEND system that we'll be doing on this programme. And the piano, the grand piano in front of me in the studio of ATA is set up and gleaming this morning because we are going to blow you away with the voice of our guest who will be accompanied on piano. She's going to be singing in studio, Aigal Ak-Metsina. She's a mezzo-soprano with a new album and you do not want to miss that performance.

But let us begin by remembering the impact of the Irish novelist Edna O'Brien, who has died at the age of 93. The President of Ireland, Michael D. Higgins, said she was one of the first writers to provide a true voice to the experiences of women in Ireland and played an important role in transforming the status of women. She wasn't just a novelist, though. She was a short story writer, a memoirist, a poet, a playwright. Maybe she's best known. You might have your own favourite. But she particularly talked about the portrayal of women's lives against repressive expectations in Irish society. And her first novel, The Country Girls, was published in 1960.

It became part of a trilogy that was banned in Ireland because of their references to sexual expression and social issues, which you can imagine, had the perhaps adverse effect that the authorities didn't want of making them even more sought after by readers. Jenny Murray spoke to her on Woman's Hour, that was in 2019,

and asked Edna how conscious she was when she was writing the book of breaking down societal and sexual barriers. I wasn't at all conscious. It would have freaked me because I wouldn't have been able to do it then. I didn't know that it would cause such furore. I knew that as a woman and a young woman in her 20s in Ireland that I was treading danger water by writing a book at all. But if I had really known the brouhaha that would happen, then that would

have definitely throttled me. I wouldn't have been free to write a book. You have to feel it's for everybody and nobody. You have to keep with it in your own skull and be true to it as far as you can. It's a long time ago.

I mean, it's nearly 60 years ago. It is 60 years. Since Country Girls was banned, burned in your hometown and described, if I remember rightly, as filth. How did you cope with that reaction? It's interesting how you cope with fear and shame, both of which applied, because I felt ashamed even though I didn't think I had done anything to be ashamed about. It's a bit like people

in shock of a kind, in that you get through it, but without, you're hurt by it, but you just get through it like somebody driven. It's a kind of instinct. And I got through it, but privately I felt very wounded. The people in my village were ashamed. My bishops, archbishops, politicians, friends, nuns, family. My poor mother was the most ashamed of all. And that hurt me. But I suppose, principally, I should say, I got through it through my own determination. I am a frightened person. I am

fearful of many things. But I do have a strong will. And I had a will to write from the moment almost that I was born. My youngest experience of what words were, were in a cloth book. I had a cloth book that was lovely and soft, a soft cloth. And there were a few words written on it. It may have been the words of a fairy tale. I do not know. But I remember thinking that these words were, forgive the word, it sounds highfalutin, that these words were luminous and magic. They were words that were there forever. In this instance, on a piece of cloth,

and later on, on a piece of paper. The distinctive voices there of Edna O'Brien speaking to Jenny Murray on Woman's Hour in 2019. Edna O'Brien has passed at the age of 93. I want to bring in the Irish novelist Eimear MacBride, who knew Edna. Wonderful to have you on the programme, Eimear. It's quite something listening to her, isn't it? What were your first memories of Edna O'Brien and perhaps finding her work? Well, I mean, Edna was really the start

of grown-up reading for me. I read her first when I was about 13 years old away at the Gaeltacht, the Irish language camp, much beloved of Irish students everywhere. And, you know, and at that time there was still a bit of a whiff of scandal about reading her at all. And I had to read her under the covers of the bed so that the lady of the house wouldn't know what I was reading. And, you know, of course, I grew up in the west of Ireland like Edna and reading that book in the west of Ireland at the time, it was so alive to me and I just remember the experience of the language it was the first time that I had experienced language that was so rich that it felt like it came alive inside you it brought the characters alive inside you and to you know could be in the midst of that world it felt as though I was transported to you know to the lives of Baba and Kate which weren't so

very different from my own and you know that was the kind of the start of a grown up love for language for me. I had never read anyone who had written about women's experiences, about being an Irish girl, about the body and the experience of the body and how beautifully she conveyed those awkward and difficult and sometimes shameful experiences. And it was, you know, it was eye opening for me as for everyone else, I think. It's so evocative as you describe that, Eimear. And for those that aren't aware of the Gael Talkt where lots of kids go for like three weeks to speak Irish. It's generally somewhere very remote and country as well. And the thought of you as a girl reading this book that was, you know, so controversial in its time as well. But I think you hit on it there, talking about Edna's ability to capture Irish girlhood.

I might even go as far as saying surviving Irish girlhood. I mean, I think certainly in that generation and really up until all the changes of the 90s, the experience of Irish womanhood and Irish girlhood was largely unspoken, was not publicly recognised or acknowledged in any way. There was a sort of terrible romanticism forced upon us um over what what they what Irish womanhood had to be you know the the comely maidens dancing at the crossroads or you know the the supporter in the home and uh there's a struggle against that the way women were forced to internalize things they The inescapability of abusive marriages or relationships, of relentless childbearing.

All of those things were not spoken of on the surface, but were suffered in silence beneath. And suddenly she brought voice to so many thousands of silent bodies. You know, I'm also struck many of our listeners will know, you've many books, but A Girl is a Half Form Thing, of course, is one that was wildly successful for you. And it's kind of interesting to think of that intersection that you had with Edna because you knew her as well. She also became a mentor for you. Yes, I mean, I had written A Girl is a Half-Formed Thing before I met her, but I was certainly, you know, I thought a great deal of country girls as I was writing that book.

And although it was set many years later, it was still set in that that landscape of of intense beauty, but also incredible silence and fear and shame. And, you know, I don't I would never have been able to write that book without her example before me. And so later when I when I first met her and I brought my very battered old copy of Country Girls and very sort of shamefacedly asked her if she would sign it for me, you know, it was a huge moment for me. And I remember she just wrote in it, you know, to email my friend now and then. And I think she really felt that they the kind of the the loving accompaniment of women who had to be silent through all those years and throughout who witnessed her journey and who witnessed her struggle and who supported her and who weren't allowed to support her publicly. And I think it was important to her in her later years to realise how much people loved her, how much they valued her work, but also how much they respected what she had been through

and the path that she had carved for those of us who came after. Because she was a woman in a very, very male dominated space. How would you describe her impact on the Irish literary scene? It's kind of hard to, I think. I mean, I think catastrophic for a lot of the old secret cows. Or maybe we should say bulls, considering that they were probably men. The secret bullocks were like in that era. But, you know, she And, but, you know,

she was very much, you know, however much we might complain about women's position in literature now, she was on her own. There was no one like her. There was no one. And I think certainly

there was a tremendous resentment towards the fact that not only was she saying what she was saying, she was, you know, airing the dirty laundry of the nation in public. But she was also wildly successful, not just in Ireland, but internationally. And the goal that that created among, I think, a lot of rather resentful Irish male writers was extraordinary.

And I think that also led to a lot of bile being directed to her. And it certainly led to a lot of critical diminishing of the quality of her work, of the intellectual integrity of her work, as well as the emotional capacity and the wonderful prose. I think, you know, she enraged people because she was so successful. people loved her and readers loved her. The best revenge, right? And I think also she had a very progressive, liberal attitude to life as well. So it wasn't just on the pages, also the way that she decided to walk through this world. You mentioned the dirty laundry that Edna O'Brien was washing the nation's dirty laundry in public. But you did also go on to say, as I quote you, laundry which has proved so dirty that more than 50 years later, it's still proving in need of a rinse. What do you mean by that? Well, you know, I think in Ireland, obviously, the stories continue to emerge of a past that was hidden

and disregarded of what happened to women and happened to children, what happened to disabled people, what happened to anyone who wasn't a sort of glorious middle-class male. And I think, you know, looking back on when I

had the pleasure of writing the introduction to a new version of her Country Girls trilogy. And I spent a lot of time just reading back through old reviews and things that were said. And I think there is a lot of rage towards her evident in that. And I think that continues to be the experience of a lot of women writers once they come into the public domain

of a literary culture that, you know, pooh-poohs them and diminishes them. And, you know, I think that's part of the laundry that continues to need shaking out into the sun these days. Well, we are doing it

as we speak about Edna O'Brien with the also incredibly successful Irish novelist, Eimear MacBride. Thank you for spending some time with us. A Girl is a Half-Formed Thing is one of Eimear's books. Of course, The Lesser Bohemians, many, many more as well. But it's been wonderful to have you on and also to hear your memories of the Irish novelist

who has died at the age of 93. I want to turn next to the hundreds of thousands of children in England with special educational needs and disabilities, or SEND, as the system that they are in is described. It is said that they are being failed by a broken system and it's a new independent report commissioned by the Local Government Association and the County Council's network that is warning that the system needs immediate

and fundamental reform. And it also spells out how to do that. There is a group of 12 leading chief executives of children's organisations that are worried that some of the ideas will pile on even more pressure for families and their children. In a moment, we'll hear from one of those CEOs who warns that women are bearing the brunt of this send crisis.

And I gave out the number just as we were coming to air and I noticed, oh my goodness, so many messages that have already come in. Our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, is here. So give us a little bit of context, Carolyn, and welcome to how many children we're talking about. Well, more than ever before. Let me give you an idea. Overall, there are roughly nine million schoolchildren in England and 1.2 million of them are assessed as having some form of special educational need. And on top of that, another 575,000 between nursery age and 25 with the highest needs have what's called an Education, Health and Care Plan or EHCP.

And that sets out the extra support that they are legally entitled to. Now, a decade, that figure was only 240,000 children. So you can see it's more than doubled. Overall, the families of these children will tell you they're driven to the brink. They're drained both financially and emotionally. They're often pitted against their local authorities. They're always battling to get something, an EHCP or going to tribunal. And some still don't even get a school place at all.

Now, I've been speaking with one family which has gone through some of this. Pete Nellis is Professor of Material Science at Oxford University's Corpus Christi College and he's a former admissions tutor for undergraduates. Dr Ruth Nellis is Research Project Manager at the university. They're both speaking in a strictly personal capacity. Now their daughter Katie, who's now 17 however, has barely been to school since she was 11. The SEND system has been one of the worst things I've ever had to deal with,

and no one should have to deal with that. They have no empathy or awareness of your feelings. You just feel like a little checkbox in the system, and it's not fair that they have the power to make these decisions about your life. No one deserves this. If this was a more widespread systematic issue, this would have been a public scandal. And from your experience, if you're happy to talk about that, what was school like when you were at school?

Even from my earliest memories of primary school, I could barely talk to my parents about what had happened that day. And then when I got to year six, there were SATs to do. And the pressure was just ramped up to such an insane degree. And the pressure just got too much. I started having massive meltdowns at home. And what do you think should have happened at that point? Knowing how high functioning autism presents now, if someone is appearing fine in school, but then having massive reactions at home,

that is textbook masking, it's all well and good to be able to support the children you can see have obvious additional needs, but the ones who are invisible are struggling just as much. And okay, okay. I can continue. Yeah. Shall we bring mom and dad here so um ruth and peter katie was existing she wasn't able to wash she wasn't able to dress many days she wasn't able to get out of bed she wasn't eating she was struggling just interacting with us all. She couldn't sleep. I slept on her floor for I don't know how long. She was anxious. As a parent, you feel devastated, helpless, and utterly inadequate that your child has ended up in that position

and you feel a complete failure. Katie has not been able to receive a schooling, has not been provided with an appropriate schooling, has no GCSEs and is not studying for A-levels. Hopefully that's something that can come in the future. But I think looking at the slightly wider picture, we often hear talk of the increase in the number of education, health and care plans that are being issued and the demands on the system.

And I think what this is reflecting actually is a rigidity in our education system which then fails to support neurodiversity because neurodiversity clearly by its definition needs a whole range of different teaching approaches there is no mystery I think here we've just generated a system which is becoming increasingly rigid and inflexible and therefore there are more kids who are needing these educational health and care plans and special educational provision and I think with Katie if we'd had the diagnosis in her year one when she was five and six and the right support had been in place you know you can see she's associable she's articulate she could probably have managed in mainstream education and so the fact that that didn't happen has failed a child

who could be actually contributing hugely to society. If I just had been actually seen when I was five, maybe I wouldn't have ended up this way, because at five they would just have been treating a child with autism and some mild anxiety, but then I was back six years later with PTSD and eating disorder as well, and severely anxious. It was a battle, and every single interaction and conversation felt like a battle.

Information flow was really poor, emails weren't answered, you constantly had to chase, we were misled. There was a complete lack of understanding within the system as to Katie's difficulties. Each autistic child will present uniquely and their needs and challenges will be completely different but they needed to put your child into a box and Katie didn't fit in a box. Pete and I were tenacious. We didn't give up. But the toll that took on us and on the wider family was hard to encapsulate, actually. You both said you were very angry about what's happened.

You can't not be. I mean, in fact, many of the interactions we've had just are infuriating. When you get ignored, you're just given mindless bureaucratic language. You know, as parents, when you're just at your wits end trying to find a way through this, you just don't want yet another battle. Obviously, there needs to be more funding, but the main issue is the culture within these systems. One thing that always sticks out to me is the tribunal rate the county loses over 90 percent of tribunals this is a system that really breaks people i'm lucky because i want to start fighting

it but it could have such a detrimental effect on someone who was in an even worse situation than i was it's people's lives and i feel like because i've been out of school I've missed some of the things usual teenagers would do. I didn't get to go to prom, I haven't got tight social circles, I've still got friends but they're not to the same degree. There's been failure at every level of the system. We are incredibly talented people, we can do everything that we want to do if we were just given the chance. That's the Nellis family and the good news is that Katie is now training to be a riding instructor

and she's also campaigning for young people with SEND to be part of Oxfordshire County Council's decision making process and we asked it for response it told us it doesn't comment on individual cases but it continues to make good progress improving SEND services. So interesting, particularly to hear from Katie there. I just want to read one message that came in, Carolyn, just while we were listening to the Nellis family. It says, we've just taken our local authority to tribunal for our son's school place and the EHCP, the Education and Healthcare Plan.

We won, as we heard many times family do, and got the outcome we wanted. However, the last four months have cost us both financially, upwards of 20k, which we will not get back, but also emotionally. I've had a breakdown from the stress. The system is broken. I'm very aware we're fortunate to have had the ability

to fight for my son like this. But for families who do not, what happens? It's appalling. So that is some of the issues that many families are facing, trying to get the right education, as also outlined by the Nellists. So what does this new report commissioned by the local government association and county councils network call for? Well, urgent reform. It says there's been a breakdown in trust between parents and councils.

We're just hearing that, aren't we? An over-reliance on special schools because of the loss of parental confidence that mainstream schools can actually meet their children's needs. And despite more money being thrown at the problem, this report says £12 billion is earmarked for the next two years, outcomes for these children are not improving. They're sort of flatlining. Here is Councillor Kate Fole. She is the SEND spokesperson for the County Council's network.

We needed this report because there's a really strong consensus for a more radical programme of reform on SEND spokesperson for the County Council's network. We needed this report because there's a really strong consensus for a more radical programme of reform on SEND. We've been failing our children with special educational need or disability now for many, many years and they're not progressing and thriving and learning in a way that they should be and we really, really need to tackle that now because the situation is getting worse. There are more and more children coming to the system with SEND and we do not have the tools in place to actually help them. The system at the moment is very adversarial and it isn't working for parents, for children, for schools or for councils. And what we need in order to make it right is for mainstream schools to become more inclusive. We need more children with SEND to find that they can actually

be welcomed in more inclusive mainstream schools with the professional help and support provided in schools for them to be able to do that and that's not happening at the moment. How badly do you think children are being let down by the current system? Very badly, very badly indeed. When I meet parents with children with SEND, they're absolutely desperate. They're having to fight like mad in a system that's not meeting their needs. It's really adverse. I mean, having to go to a tribunal

because your children aren't getting the education that they need. A horrible kind of adversarial kind of set-up like that. It's appalling. They shouldn't have to go to those kind of lengths. And I think that this report actually has a blueprint that actually would prevent that happening. The Disabled Children's Partnership, which represents about 120 different organisations, we're going to be hearing from them in a moment.

They say that some of the recommendations include taking away families' legal rights. What do you say to that? This is absolutely not about taking away parents' rights. What do you say to that? This is absolutely not about taking away parents' rights. I mean, instead, it's a blueprint, a proposal for a system that focuses on capacity and resources and funding to meet their needs of all children in the system. And I mean, we don't claim to have a monopoly on ideas and successful reform will only be achieved with everyone's point of view incorporated. And we want to hear those views. You're saying that the system needs to change. The parents would say that the local authority is the problem.

What do you say to that? Well, the local authority probably is the problem in that it's not properly resourced for this and the system is actually broken. So they're doing their very best, doing some really good work, trying to kind of meet the needs. You know, the legislation needs to change, doesn't it? The system's broken.

That's why we're calling out for radical reform. So that was Kate Fole, the SEND spokesperson for the County Council's network, speaking to Carolyn. Thanks very much, Carolyn. We'll hear the response from the government in just a moment, but I want to bring in Katie Goat, who is the Chief Executive of Kids, a charity which supports disabled children from birth to 25, running nurseries, after-school clubs, specialist adventure playgrounds and well-being sessions. And you are, Katie, among one of the 12 chief executives from the Disabled Children's Partnership. That includes 120 organisations, there's Mencap, Sense, the National Autistic Society, for example, who have voiced concerns,

that was alluded to by Carolyn there, about parts of this report and its recommendations. But my first question to you would be, Katie, and welcome. Do you agree that urgent reform is needed? I could not agree more that urgent reform of the special educational needs and disabilities system is needed. Families are on their knees. They are struggling to get the basic support for their children and it's very timely that we're talking about this because a lot of mothers and fathers as well with disabled children are looking at the long summer holiday ahead they know they're not going to be able to get really good inclusive holiday fun programs just because their child

has a disability those needs won't be met. I am hearing, the comments are coming in thick and fast. Here's Laura, for example, I have two autistic children. The younger one is eight and has been in an amazing flexi school for two years, loves it. The older one is ten. His special school couldn't meet needs, she has that in inverted commas, two years ago and he has no school

at all since July 2022. I lost my job. I've had constant battles with the local authority. The system is a mess. So you would agree with Laura and the others that we're hearing from that urgent reform is needed. But let me go through

some of the ideas that you're actually worried about. We keep hearing about EHCP. That's the Education, Health and Care Plan that some children will have. You're against the idea of replacing those plans. What was suggested was something called a learner record. What's wrong with that?

We're worried about this because an Education, Health and Care Plan is a legal document. It's very specific. It will say things like this child's needs mean a one to one teaching assistant is required and they should also have a physiotherapist to help them with their mobility. It's specific and it's got legal bite. And it's a last resort for parents who are quite desperate by that point. We're very worried that watering it down into something like a learner record that doesn't have legal bite or weight could really let families down and it'll make them feel worried at a point when trust is already low because the basic services have been shorn to the bone and they're just not there for them. Secondly, so that's your idea on that one, the idea of getting rid of send tribunals, we've already heard a little of that this morning.

These are legally binding decisions that are made by judges. The proposal would be to replace them with a national institute to resolve disputes. I mean, we heard just from a listener there talking about cost them 20k and also the stress was just incredible for her. I believe it was a woman getting in touch of going through that system.

That might sound to many like a good idea to get rid of something that is such a drain on emotion and money. No family with a disabled child chooses to go into battle in a legal process. They do it when they're completely desperate. For example, you know that your child needs to be met at a particular school, there's going to be sensory needs attended to, smaller classrooms, it's going to be right for them, but you're not being given that opportunity. So the tribunal is a last resort.

If we can get to a point as a society where our schools are really inclusive of all our brilliantly unique children, then families won't have to go to tribunal anything like as often as they do now but the answer isn't to get rid of that backstop and that legal redress as a last resort. I'm struck by how many messages are coming in with specific stories. My daughter is currently locked in a battle to get my granddaughter age seven into a school that can meet her needs. She has an EHCP. Everyone involved in her care agreed that a special school

is the right place for her. With successive government underfunding, there are no places, hours of form filling. Finally, a tribunal in February 2025 is just part of the process that parents who already have enough to deal with

must undergo. Success is far from assured. The system is broken. Our most vulnerable children are victims. How loud must we shout to get the government to listen? Well, going back to another suggestion, which children and young people with additional

needs would go through the regular admissions route for schools and colleges. But you don't think that's a good idea either? No. It's a very different experience finding that right school for a disabled child and it's a real struggle. And I was just talking to a family the other day, they're upping sticks, they're moving and cutting ties with their local community to get to a different town, the right school for their disabled twin boys. It's a very different journey that you're on

and there does need to be that really strong parental involvement and choice and again we're very worried the signal that that sends out of somehow not understanding that each disabled child has got different needs and the involvement of the parents and the choice of the school is absolutely essential. Katie Ghosh, Chief Executive of the Charity Kids, thank you very much. One more message also echoing what Katie was saying there. My family had to move 141 miles away to get one of my two children into a school. We're about to go into an appeal for the second. I feel broken as a parent and only get to see my children every few months because of the distance. What the systems have done to my family should be classed as criminal.

This simply would not be allowed in any other facet of life. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Carolyn is here. Carolyn, reforming the SEND system, however, must be pretty high. We're hearing how loud they need to shout from some of our listeners. For the new Secretary of State for Education, that's Bridget Philipson. What is her position so far? Yeah, well, she's issued a statement for Woman's Hour saying the diagnosis in this report,

she calls it damning and she's warning that outcomes for children with SEND are flatlining. She says she intends to transform early years to intervene earlier, aiming for many children to get the support they need in mainstream school, but also ensuring there are enough places in special schools for children with the most complex needs. And she says change won't feel as quick as she or parents would like, but she promises to restore parents' trust. Carolyn Atkinson, thank you so much. I do want to let you know that in September we're going to be doing a special one-hour programme

live from the BBC Radio Theatre in London. We're going to be looking at this in much more detail, all about the current SEND system and also what can be done to improve support for children with special educational needs and disabilities. There'll be lots more information on how you can join us to be part of that studio audience nearer the time.

But do get involved now. Thank you for your messages this morning. We're going to take a look at all of them and we're going to continue looking at them. Maybe you have direct experience of parenting a child with special educational needs. We're particularly interested in school places.

It's come up already. Has your child got one? If not, why not? And also, if you've had to give up work or maybe make significant changes to your daily life in order to support your child,

the ways to get in touch. I mentioned the text 84844 on social media or at BBC Women's Hour. Email us through our website or for WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number 03700 10044.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I

unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Okay, let us turn to the United States.

The presidential election and that race, it is in full swing. Donald Trump, the Republican nominee, Kamala Harris now on track to become the Democrats' choice at their convention. That's next month. And we heard a lot last week about Kamala Harris,

her strategy for this race and how she might play her cards. But we also want to take a closer look at the Republicans and how their policies might shape women's issues in America. I want to discuss this with the BBC's US special correspondent, Cathy Kay. She's also the author of four New York Times bestselling books on women and work. Her latest one is The Power Code, examining many of the issues facing women in the States. Cathy, welcome to Woman's Hour. So good to have you on.

Nuala, great to be with you. Thank you. Well, let us talk about the Republicans. We've heard so much about the Harris campaign over the past couple of weeks. What a couple of weeks it has been. But how would you describe the state of the Trump campaign right now?

Look, I think the state campaign, the Trump campaign is still trying to figure out how to deal with the new reality in the Democratic campaign. When I talk to people in Trump's world and advising the Trump campaign, it was pretty clear they were very happy running against Joe Biden. They felt that Donald Trump had a big advantage there. They saw Joe Biden after the debate losing ground in the polls and they they didn't particularly want the Democrats to switch candidates. And now that they've switched for Kamala Harris, who looks like she's going to be the Democratic nominee, barring any extraordinary surprises, which this campaign has been full of,

of course. So don't rule anything out. I think they're not quite sure how to handle that candidate. You've had mixed messages from Republican officials, from Donald Trump himself, from the vice president, all trying to figure out what is the best way to attack Kamala Harris without alienating big segments of the electorate. Well, one thing that can be alienating and divisive, as we know, in the United States is abortion. And it is just a little over two years ago when the US Supreme Court overturned the constitutional right to abortion, which was established in a case called Roe v. Wade 50 years ago. And then that paved the way for more restrictions on abortion in many states. We've heard Kamala Harris speak about abortion and how she says Mr. Trump would address it. But what is Mr. Trump's campaign stance on abortion now, officially? How long do I have to answer that? To go through the very many iterations of where Donald Trump has been personally on abortion. Let's go, let's deal with the personal side first,

and then look quickly at the Republican Party's platform. Because Donald Trump is somebody who in 1999 said that he was very pro-choice. In 2011, he said he was pro-life. In 2016, he suggested there should be some form of punishment for a woman who had an abortion. And in 2023, after the Republicans suffered electoral losses in the midterm elections, he actually blamed Republican candidates for being too conservative on what he called the abortion issue. So he's kind of weaved on this. And I think what he's realized is that while he needed evangelical voters to win in 2016,

and he got Roe v. Wade, as you just said, overturned, Republicans have to be careful about the abortion issue, because actually these restrictions that have been put in place around America have proved to be very galvanizing for Democrats. So purely in political terms, I think75 words in the 2020 platform to just 90 in the 2024 platform. And I think that kind of that slimming down of the discussion is exactly a reflection of where Donald Trump is on this. He sort of doesn't want to talk about abortion at the moment. And he doesn't really want Republicans talking about abortion,

because it turns off female voters. Yes, but it is very much what the Democrats are talking about, as we've seen even over the past week. But with the campaign, Donald Trump picked J.D. Vance as his vice president. Senator Vance, he's from Ohio, and he's been in the headlines for his 2021 comments on childless cat ladies is the phrase. People have probably seen it.

And there was a lot of backlash to that. People like Jennifer Aniston, for example, come to mind. People who haven't had, women who haven't had children in particular, pushing back. He has wrote back somewhat saying his comments were directed at the Democratic Party for becoming anti-family. I'd be curious on your thoughts of how much his comments from the past or now could impact on the election. Look, I think it was interesting this weekend when J.D. Vance said, oh, I was just being sarcastic when I was criticising Kamala Harris for being a childless cat lady. And he then went on to say that she didn't really have a stake in the United

States because she didn't have children. That, of course, not a popular comment and had, as you said, produced a very big backlash. So he rode back against it. But I think it does reflect something in this huge to, all 920 pages of it. And a lot of the tone of that Project 2025, which is a kind of Republican blueprint, potentially for a Trump candidacy, although he's backed away from it a little bit, is very much about family values, about putting the family first, about putting a nuclear family first, a traditional view of an American family first. And that is part of what J.D. Vance represents in the conservative movement. It is part of the current Republican Party's ethos. And I think that's why you're seeing female voters, particularly younger female voters with college degrees, move away from the Republican Party. They don't like that. There are definitely areas where the Republican Party could make headway with female voters. But trying to push too hard on the family values is probably going to alienate younger female voters and women with college degrees. So interesting. I was listening to your podcast and I recommend it for others.

The rest is Politics US, which you present with Anthony Scaramucci, who was on Trump's team for a hot second back in 2017. And I was interested that he said that Kamala Harris's weakness could be on business. And we know the economy tops the issues for voters of all stripes. And of course, that includes women as well. Do you think that might be where Trump could excel with the female vote? It'll certainly be where he tries to push. So 40% of female voters of all stripes say that inflation is the most important issue for them. Women in America tend to control family budgets, and Republicans are very conscious of that as well. Many women in America are now out-earning their husbands, and he have even more stake

in the family budget. So I think if they can stick to inflation, and it's interesting to hear some of the Republican politicians kind of criticizing J.D. Vance and implicitly criticizing Donald Trump as well. People like Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House saying, listen, we need to stay focused on the issues, on issues like inflation and the economy, and not talk about Kamala Harris in terms of her gender or in terms of her race. That's a losing proposition for us. But if we can stay focused on the economy, I think they have a better chance. I mean, the truth is, if you look at female voters in the United States, overwhelmingly, female voters vote democratically. The Republicans lost women voters by about 12% in the last election.

They lose black women voters by about 90%. They lose Hispanic voters, female voters by about 60%. The only pocket of female voters that tend to vote more Republican than they vote Democratic, women voters without college educations who tend to be poorer. So they are going to be very receptive to the economic arguments. That's going to matter to them particularly more perhaps than issues of abortion, more perhaps than issues of democracy. So they can expand their area of voters, I think, amongst women voters without college degrees. It's going to be tough for Republicans to get other women voters.

Ivanka Trump was such a big presence, really, in her father's campaign previously. Melania, we've seen, came out after the attempted assassination of Trump. What a line to put in. I mean, it's just been the most intense few weeks, I think, in American politics. Not ever, because it is a country that knows the roller coaster. But are there women around Trump at the moment that people might latch on to? I was interested to see his granddaughter, Kai, speak at the convention about him as a grandfather. Because in some ways, this campaign does seem to be dividing in some ways along gender lines.

But I think it's dividing in gender lines because that's where American politics is. Women have tended to vote Democratic more than Republican for a very long time. This is not new. This is not necessarily about Donald Trump. Certainly there are women around Donald Trump. And there's Ivanka. There's his other daughter, Tiffany. There is his granddaughter, as you suggested.

There is a woman, Susie Wiles, who is running his campaign, who he's very close to. So there are actually a lot of senior women in Trump's campaign. And there are a lot of women who love Donald Trump. You see them at his rallies. I mean, they're not just strategically placed in the photographs behind him. I've been to the rallies. There are lots of women, I can assure you, at Donald Trump's rallies who really do love him. But there's been several things that have happened recently in American politics.

In 2016, of course, Donald Trump beat a woman for president when he beat Hillary Clinton. But since then, you've had more women elected to office. You've had more women elected to the House of Representatives. The numbers have gone up by about 50 percent. You've had more women elected to the Senate. You've had the Me Too movement, which has changed the conversation in the United States. And you've had the overturning of Roe v. Wade. All of those things, I think, have made women's issues more front and center, more spoken about. And there used to be this thing about,

in American elections, it's the economy stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if 2024 was, it's women stupid. I mean, I think women are going to define this election. They tend to be the people who choose presidents in the United States, because women, guess what, actually turn out and vote in bigger numbers than men do. We get out the house and we show up. So I think, you know, but this really does feel like it's going to be a women's issues election. BBC's US special correspondent, Cathy Kay, who has also written four New York Times bestselling books on women and work,

which I also love. Of course, you can find her on the podcast as well. Wonderful to have you on. I hope we'll have you back in the coming months as well as the race progresses. Thank you, Nuala.

Now, Listener Week, fast approaching and I can't wait for us to feature your ideas and stories. Are you part of a community, a group, a club that deserves a spotlight? Maybe you're doing something that we have no idea about. We want to know about it.

Maybe, I don't know, there's a hobby, a pastime. Maybe there's a story you came across. Maybe there's a person that you think should be profiled that we haven't had yet on Woman's Hour. How to get in touch, 84844. You can also get in touch with us on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. So many of you got in touch already. I'm loving it. We're going through all the ideas with the producers. So get them in because we won't find until it sneaks up on us next month.

That is Listener Week. But now, something completely different. Held as the Carmen of our time, mezzo-soprano Aigul Akhmetzina was chosen to lead the cast of Bizet's immortal masterpiece

in no less than eight international productions in one season. She soared to prominence at the age of 21 when, as an understudy, she made this resounding debut as Carmen at the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden. Now, grand old age of 27, Igall has made history as the youngest artist ever to take on the title role at both the Royal Opera House in London and also at the Metropolitan Opera in New

York. She's been named Best Female Singer at the 2023 International Opera Awards and Igall's inspirational journey has taken her from a village in the Ural Mountains to the world's most prestigious stages, also a recording contract. She has a debut album that has just

been released and features a portrait of her famed Carmen and other operatic arias, including a specially arranged folk song from her home, from the Republic of Bashkortostan. You're so welcome, Michael. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Thank you so much for having me here. You know, when I was reading your story, I was so fascinated that you began in this rural village, you know, making your way to these prestigious roles and stages in parts of very urban parts of the world. When did you start singing?

Well, as I remember myself, the first performance I had in the kindergarten when I was three years old. And in the village, everyone knew me as Igel singer. Every time it was like, oh, that's the Igel singer. And as long as I remember myself, I always sang. And it was my decision to go to music school at age six. I just came to my mom and said, I want to study music properly. And was that in the village? It was in the village. Yes. And I studied and because at that time there was, there wasn't singing classes. I studied a baton accordion. I had to play that instrument and I never touched that instrument again. I was just about to ask. I finished my studying. I never touched that instrument again. And I went to college where I started professionally studying.

But that was in Ufa, the city of Ufa. But you were just 14. I mean, what was that like? It was just the new beginning. I don't know. I was sure what I want to do. And for that reason, I didn't have any doubts about moving from the village to the city. And I was quite determined that I finished music school, there's no more education for me to take. And I said to my mom, I want to go to college.

So that was Ufa. But then you moved from the city of Ufa in Bashkortostan to the Royal Opera House in London. What a leap. What do you remember about those first days? I was incredibly scared because also I didn't speak English at that time. And for me, it was scary. I didn't go abroad. I didn't travel. And here I am traveling from Republic of Bashkortostan to London.

It's quite a long journey, I would say. Oh, yeah. In more ways than one, not just physically, but mentally. And it was scary because I didn't know anyone. And when I arrived for my first auditions to Royal Opera House, I was terrified. And I thought, oh my God, what are you doing? It's a big mistake, big mistake. You have to just pack again and leave. But you obviously made an impression because at the age of 21, as an understudy, you made this debut as Carmen at the Royal Opera House. Well, that was a big thing. And they opened lots of doors for me, I would say, after that Carmen debut. And Royal Opera House was very supportive. They were really protecting me also, because as a young singer, it's very easy to

damage the voice. But they really looked after me pretty well. That's lovely to hear. And you've been hailed now as the world's go-to Carmen. You've performed the role eight times in one season. But you say actually you're not performing her, that you're living her. So how does it feel? Sometimes it's emotionally draining, I would say. Because this character always demands the maximum uh which you can

give in that particular moment and carmen needs freedom freedom on stage for that reason there's always supposed to be some room for improvisation on stage um and sometimes it's challenging to transform from one production to another because each director tries to bring a different philosophy or different idea. And I have to find something with which I will connect myself. I go as a person to connect with the same story, to tell the truth to the audience, to deliver the message. It's so interesting that woman looking for freedom. It's kind of a theme we've had going through the programme today. You have been signed by Decca Classics.

Your debut album, as I mentioned, has been released. And on the album is a track called Nightingale. So this is a Bashkort folk song. What does the piece mean to you? This piece is very special to me because my grandma used to sing that song for me. I grew up with the Bashkir folk songs and that was also the style with which I started my first studying. And I think Bashkir folk songs helped me to develop my voice. What is it? Is it something within the troche or the breathing?

First of all, for Bashkir folk singing, you need a full, strong breath, full range of voice, flexibility in the voice. It demands exactly the same things which you need for classical singing. And on this album, we're going to hear classical and some of your folk songs as well um with your grandmother she seems to play a part also you talked about the accordion which i think your grandfather played i mean how much your family must be so proud of you uh i'm sure they are did they not say are they

kind of more of um what would i say kind of relaxed about it and kind of let you do your thing? I think they understand, but we don't have that in our culture, in our family to speak out loud. About what you've achieved? Yes. There are many cultures like that. I think lots of people will understand that. But you're going to perform for us and you're going to sing it's from opera verter that's one of my favorite operas and in this particular area the if we translate to english it let uh let the tears flow because in this particular moment, Charlotte is a bit suffering after reading these letters from Werther and she suffers with him. She's been tortured by these letters.

We can have it all in this studio. Tears, laughter, everything in between. And Egil Akmetsina has a debut album that is out. Just wonderful to have your voice. Thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. Right, tomorrow I want to let you know we're going to hear from mother and daughter Sarah and Hughie about why they want to change the law on coercive control to go beyond domestic situations and we'll be talking about the return of fake tan.

That's something I'm not going to put on but I'll talk to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, John Holmes says the C word. I am John Holmes, and last year I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Following surgery, I'm recovering just fine now, thanks for asking, but it's all been a bit weird. And I think it feels weird, not least because men don't really like talking about this stuff. So I've gathered together a load of other men who've been through it for brutally honest and, yes, funny conversations about all things cancer.

Across the series, we'll be hearing from, amongst many others, Stephen Fry. You saved my life. Oh, my goodness. It's a wonderful thing to hear. Eric Idle. It's not the most desirable side effect, but it's funny. And the BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen.

I took a dump on a newspaper. John Holmes says the C word. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.