Woman's Hour - Elaine Paige, Nova Reid on Jocelyn Barrow, Pauline Collins

Episode Date: November 7, 2025

NB: The music in this broadcast has been removed from this podcast for rights reasons.A grande dame of musical theatre, Elaine Paige made her West End debut in the 1960s and shot to fame in 1978 playing Eva Perón in Evita, going on to star in Cats, Chess, Sunset Boulevard and many more. She talks to Anita Rani about becoming an actual Dame this week, and how she’s fostering the next generation of talent.American author Gish Jen and her mother never got along. In her latest novel Bad Bad Girl, Gish tries to figure out why that was. Reconstructing, then fictionalising her mother’s life as she moves from a wealthy childhood in China to an up-and-down immigrant existence in the US. Gish joins Anita to talk about the real life events behind her book.Restaurant chain McDonald's has announced it will bring in new sexual harassment training for managers. These are strengthened measures that were agreed with the Equality and Human Rights Commission to protect McDonald's staff from abuse. A BBC investigation that started two years ago found that workers as young as 17 were being groped and harassed. Anita gets an update from BBC reporter Noor Nanji.Writer and producer Nova Reid joins Anita to talk about the late Dame Jocelyn Barrow, the race relations campaigner and the first black female governor of the BBC whose story Nova tells in her new podcast, Hidden Histories with Nova Reid. The interview includes a clip of Jocelyn from 2017 sharing her thoughts with The University of Law on what she considered to be the greatest improvements in diversity.Pauline Collins, the star of the film Shirley Valentine, for which she was Oscar nominated in 1990, has died at the age of 85. Her career spanned stage and screen but she will be best remembered for her portrayal of disgruntled housewife Shirley, in the award-winning film, based on the stage play by Willy Russell. It won Pauline a Golden Globe and a BAFTA. We hear a clip of Pauline Collins playing Shirley in Lewis Gilbert's 1989 film, Shirley Valentine, distributed by Paramount Pictures, and also part of an interview Pauline recorded with Jane Garvey on Woman's Hour in 2017. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

Hi, I'm Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle, and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy, so whether you're fixing a problem, at one of life's crossroads, or just looking to shake things up a bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women

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but now back to today's women's. Thank you for now. Good morning and welcome to the programme. The red carpet has been rolled out. We are welcoming theatre royalty into the studio. Glamour has arrived in the form of Dame Elaine Page. She'll be here to tell us about her life and so much more. How much do you really know about your mother?

Author Gish Jen realised very little. So when her mother was 92, she interviewed her and then wrote a novel based on the little, she told her. She'll be speaking to us from America. MacDonald's are introducing a new sexual harassment training for managers. Following a BBC investigation two years ago, I'll speak to the reporter who broke that

story. Dame Jocelyn Brown, if it's a name you don't recognise, you will by the end of this programme. A remarkable and pioneering woman who became the first black governor of the BBC, amongst other achievements. We'll be hearing all about her life, Dame Jocelyn Barrow.

And actor Pauline Collins has just died aged 85, the star of Shirley Valentine. She also starred in the first series of the Liverbirds and then upstairs downstairs, but it was her role in the 1989 film, Shirley Valentine, that earned her a BAFTA and Oscar nomination. The brilliant film sees a 42-year-old married mother deciding to do something out of character and choose herself. She goes on holiday to Greece with her friend and it's the making of her, her liberation. I won't tell you the rest of it and ruin the plot. If you haven't seen it, it, it could be weekend viewing for you.

But this morning, I'd like to hear about the time you too did something out of character. Put yourself first. Did something just for you. What was it? And did you never look back? Maybe you were inspired by Shirley Valentine. Can't wait to read your stories.

Get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email the program by going to our website or WhatsApp me on 0700-100-444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, It's at BBC Woman's Hour, that text number once again, 84844. But first, it's been quite a week for Dame Elaine Page. The woman often described as the first lady of British musical theatre.

On Wednesday, she was at Windsor Castle to receive her Damehood from the King for services to music and charity. Elaine made her Western debut in the 1960s and shot to fame in 1978, playing Eva Peron in Avita, going on to then star in Cats, Chess, Sunset Boulevard, and many more. She's released more than 30 albums, performed around the world, and for the past 22 years, hosted Elaine Page on Sunday on BBC Radio 2. Welcome to Women's Hour, Elaine.

Well, good morning. It's lovely to see you. How is it hearing that music going on? Well, it sort of takes me back, I suppose, because we're listening to things that certainly with Evita's 47 years ago, which is quite an unbelievable amount of years to actually say. out loud. I can't believe it. 30 albums? I know, I know.

Well, there's cast albums as well, but yes, and I'm just about to start a new one as well. Oh, next week I'm going to be back in the studio again. Recording? Recording songs that I have grown up listening to and loving myself with songs from the 70s, I suppose. That was my favourite time of listening to music. And so I'm going to be singing Bee Gees, the Beatles, Bacarach, Joni Mitchell, that kind of, all those wonderful, folky kind of gentle songs. Nothing to do with musical theatre. Well, actually, it leads me on to the next question, which was actually, I just wanted to know, in your long career, when were you having the most fun?

Oh, my goodness me. Probably 1967, 8, I would say, in hair. That was kind of my university, if you like. and yes, it was a wonderful time because I was a teenager and life was changing then. I mean, everything was changing. All the barriers that, you know, after the war and all of those things was changing. The pill had been invented for women, so that gave us a lot of freedom rather suddenly.

Things, you know, major things like that that hadn't occurred before. And so it changed. It changed the game for women, I think, that period of time. And it meant that you had choices that your mother's generation never had. Absolutely right. I mean, we gained freedom for a start, sexual freedom, but financial freedom. So we gained freedom from the norm, which was at that time, you would go to school, you would leave school, you would meet a nice man, you might get a job, you'd meet a man, and then you would be married and have children.

That was the normal process that was not expected, but most women fell into that way of life. And of course, later, you know, with hair and that period, the late 60s, 70s, it all changed. And I changed along with it, of course, because I was actually, you know, I've come from a working class background in North London. But I can remember the auditions and things for hair.

And my mother saying to me, you don't want to be in that show, you know. Why did she say that? Well, because there was nudity in it and it was all about rock music and it was about, you know, the changing world with politically and so on and so forth about really fundamentally about the Vietnam War. But it was also about breaking down the barriers of life at the time. It was a major, major change. And I feel you've rode that wave really Because you have booked convention in many ways I am that's what I was trying to say

I am quite conventional as a person Because that's my background But hair changed everything for me And it broadened my outlook And gave me that sense of freedom To choose how I wanted to live Which was not considered to be the usual way Well you never got married

You don't have children That's right Do you think you could have had the career that you've had Had you? Absolutely not. No, no, of course not. Because, you know, if you have a family, I mean, I do know people in the business. I don't know how they do it. You know, they have family and children and husbands and a life, a family life to look after. I just don't know how they managed to be able to do that and have a career at the same time. It certainly wouldn't have worked for me. I just don't think I could have cope with it. And also, though, hair, you know, I'm a bit of an old hippie, really. We weren't, that wasn't on our agenda. You know, at the time, we didn't think about marriage. In fact, we were sort of against it, really, sort of saying, who needs a piece of paper? If you want to be with somebody and you're in love with someone, you want to have a relationship,

then have that relationship. You don't need to be, have pieces of paper and be married. That was the kind of idea at the time. Well, you know, we started the programme talking about Shirley Valentine at Women's Liberations. So here we are talking about it. By the way, if you have lived a life similar, then get in touch. Let us know your story, 84844. It's been a huge week for you, Elaine.

You went to Windsor Castle on Wednesday to be awarded your damehood for services to music and charity. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. Secondly, the first thing I said was, I thought Elaine was always a Dame. What was that like? How was that experience? It was a most amazing day. I mean, first of all, it is the most incredible honour. and, you know, for being given something as incredible as this,

just for doing something that I love and that I've had a passion for and the privilege to be able to do all my life. Well, it's an incredible stroke of luck, really, and I feel a bit like the cat that got the cream, to be honest, because I would never have imagined, as I say, coming from my background that I could have been, at the historic Windsor Castle, surrounded by hundreds of years of history and meeting the king and being bestowed this amazing honour, nothing will ever will ever top this. This is it.

And it's very humbling as well because, you know, as I say, I can't quite believe that something like this could happen to someone like me. And you're also giving back because you were announced yesterday as the vice president of a performing art school, a very prestigious performing arts school in London, Mountview. Why was it important for you to accept that? Well, because, you know, again, my own background, I know how difficult it is for students sometimes to be able to take up a course at a drama school. And Mountview, as you've rightly said,

is one of the UK's leading schools in the country. It's a wonderful place. They've moved from very, various places around the city and they are now in Peckham, in this most incredible building where everything is under one roof. So there's tuition and courses for not just performance, but for design and for directing, for writing, and it's all under one roof. And along with Mr. Marsen, an actor. Yes, Eddie Marzen and Charles Tarara. That's right, and Charles Tarara. we were appointed vice presidents.

I think it's really an ambassadorial role, to be honest. But, you know, it's because of our long association, really, I think, with the school, with the academy. They went there and I've been associated with them for some while now. Do you think it's more challenging now for someone from your background to get into acting? I think probably the business is as challenging today as it was in my day. I don't think it's changed much from my time because it's an overpopulated profession, if you like.

I mean, there's only a few roles for people. There's less opportunity, I think, now than ever before because financially, you know, there's cuts all the time to the arts up and down the country. So I think there's less opportunity for people in the business. So you've got to be prepared to know that you are in a very challenging and competitive profession. And then, of course, on top of that, with all that uncertainty, you've also got to know that it's very demanding, both physically and emotionally.

And you have to deal with so many other things, you know, being an actor or being in musical theatre, or whatever it is, it's a very demanding profession. And we'll talk about the challenges and how you overcame them yourself, but I want to take you back. You took us to 1968. Well, let's fast forward to 78. When you got your big break, playing the lead in Avita, how did that happen? Well, it just happened along with, I auditioned,

along with thousands of other people all around the world. And in fact, I can remember it was a time I was sort of thinking that I might jack it all in. and give it up because I'd been, you know, struggling, I suppose, you'd say. I mean, I was always working, doing bit parts here and minor roles there and television appearances and so on and so forth. But I wasn't really earning a living. And I was beginning to tire of that somewhat.

But my father, you know, the way I was brought up, I was brought up that if you started a project, you should finish it and give it your best efforts. and he always used to say to me, you know, perseverance furthers, that was his mantra. And I sort of hung on to it and sort of stuck with it for a bit longer. Because I'd been sort of playing these minor roles for, I don't know, about 10 years, something like that. And then Evita came along. And I thought to myself, oh, wait a minute, for once, being short is in my favour because she was only five foot tall or five foot two.

and that had gone against me many years prior and now here was a role that I knew that I could play A, because of her physicality and B because I knew that it sort of felt that I'd come full circle because at school I was introduced to Mozart playing Susanna in the end of school production and that was sort of like, well, an opera

and Evita in a way changed musical theatre then and it was more, it was presented much more as an opera rather than a high-faluting sort of song and dance musical. It wasn't presented in that way. So it was as if everything I'd learned at school was now coming to fruition all these years later. And I knew that I could, it was a role I really wanted to play. And amazingly, I got it.

I mean, nobody could have been more surprised than me or my dad. And life change from that moment. From that moment on, life was very different indeed. Absolutely. It gave me, well, it kickstarted my whole career, really, that particular musical. Lots of highs, but also, as you've said, the career is relentless and you have to work really hard and your father's advice of perseverance. And in 1993, you suffered a breakdown playing Edith Piaf.

What did that period teach you? Oh, gosh. I mean, looking back on that, it was, well, it was the pressure. involved. I worked with the wonderful Sir Peter Hall and Peter, I bought the rights to the piece because I wanted to make sure I could play the role because I couldn't play it initially. I was because I was playing Evita and I knew that I wanted to do it because I wanted to sort of further my acting career and it was a wonderful play by Pam Jems and there were snippets of Edith's music in the play

and of course when I started talking to Peter he said oh you're a singer everybody wants to hear you sing let's sing the whole song in each of these moments and I sort of went along with it and of course realised after the event that I probably

had that was probably a bit foolish because it turned from being a regular length play into three hour musical theatre play And so it was exhausting Because it was emotional I played her from the role of

From her age of say I don't know 16 when she was singing on the streets Right the way through her life to her death And so it was a very It was like my hamlet in a way But it really took it out of you It really physically it was exhausting And we were touring with it you see

And what I should have done was Once we toured I should have had a break before starting the run in London and instead of which we carried on straight on and it just became too much and what it taught me well it taught me to not expect quite so much of myself in the sense of trying to do everything

I was trying to do the play the role and make an album after the show at night to the early hours of the morning it was madness I wonder if there's an element of wanting to keep everyone around you happy as well because interestingly yesterday we had the brilliant cat burns on and I know you've been watching traitors yes yes and she has released a new album as well as all the sort of rise through traitors so she's out there a lot and rather than going straight on tour which was what was scheduled she's actually postponed it till next year sensible girl because that's the problem

you're right everybody else around you the machine you know they want you to make the album so it's out while the show is on running so that they get full uh feeding back from everything. And of course it's all very well, but emotionally and physically, sometimes that is just too much. And I imagine, I mean, certainly still to this day, but back then for a woman to be able, even if you are the star, to be able to say, stop the machine, I need a break. It's probably impossible. Well, I think I am a bit of a people pleaser as well, probably have been all my life. And so, yes, you want to do the best you can for others as well as yourself. So yes, it puts you in a bit of a dilemma, to be honest. Something that I just want to mention because it surprised me, but I think

it's important to talk about, because whenever I meet you, you're always so full of energy, and your energy is your superpower and your glamour, and you're always so gracious, but that you suffered terrible stage fright. Terrible. All my life, I mean, now I'm not really performing anymore, and yes, well, this is one of the things you have to know about being in this business, is that it's anxious making. I mean, there's a lot of anxiety involved. Certainly for me, there was. I mean, there are some people that just love to be out there and perform and they could, you know, do it all at a drop of a hat. For me, that was not the case. And so I've had to manage this anxiety for, well, all these years, 60 years, how I managed to do it and face

that fear every night of a performance. I just don't know. And it gets worse as you get older. I can remember asking Vera Lynn in her late 80s, whether she's still got nervous. And And she said, oh, Elaine, it just gets worse and worse, the older you get. So I'm not unique in this. I think all actors feel it, but it's managing it. That's the hard part. But enjoying being back in the studio. Absolutely.

I'm going to be doing that next week. We cannot wait to hear that album. Dame Elaine Page, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you. It's been lovely to see you. You too. And you can hear more from Dame Elaine Page on Sunday at 1pm on Radio 2, where she plays the best of Broadway, Hollywood and the West End.

844 is the text number and lots of you getting in touch with me about your Shirley Valentine moments. I drove my Morris Minor convertible, love the sound of that, from Sussex to Edinburgh and back this summer on my own, best fun ever

and such a liberating and independent feeling. I will never forget it and hold it right up there as one of my top life achievements and that's from Sophie as a fellow lover of driving. I can imagine that being brilliant.

Hello, says Jenny. My Shirley Valentine change was to throw my funds and energy into my own private dog rescue. I ignored criticism and focused on what I knew would be good for the animals and give me a sense of achievement. A recently moved to Wales to establish the rescue with eight acres of space and a doghouse. I'm alone and it's tough but certain it was the right thing to do.

Their happy, wacky tales every morning remind me of the fact as a self-confessed dog lover, I also love this. Your lives are brilliant. Keep getting in touch. 84844. Now, I'm joined on the line from Massachusetts by the... American author Gish Jens talk about how she and her mother didn't get along, a theme in Gish's latest novel, Bad Bad Girl. In it, Gish tries to figure out why their relationship was what it was by reconstructing her mother's life as she moved from a wealthy childhood in China to an up

and down immigrant existence in the US. It's fiction, but there's a fascinating truth and history in there too. Gish, welcome to Woman's Hour. Oh, it's my pleasure. It's wonderful to have you on. Why, I can almost hear her telling you off in the title, bad, bad girl. Is that what she used to say to you? Yes, that's what she used to say that all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time. And, you know, everything I did was wrong. And, you know, it's, of course, the more she said it, the more I did it, if you know what I mean. And do you?

I don't know it. I don't know that it had the effect that she was hoping. And do you realize that you didn't know your mother's story? So at 92, you decided to speak to her? Yeah, well, you know, I had started, yeah, I was very interested in her all the way along, but she did not want to talk to me. And you have a lot of reasons for that. I think one of the reasons is that, you know, women, she was, she's a woman. She grew up in the 1930s in Shanghai, and people from her background didn't talk about themselves.

You know, they don't have the autobiographical impulse that we think is so natural here in the West. They didn't have it, you know. But also, once I started talking to her, I realized that there were a lot of things she did not want to talk about. And there are a lot of things that she had kept to herself her whole life. So some of those things came out when I interviewed her at 92. And yet more of them came out, you know, after she died. And we found her papers. There weren't very many papers.

But we found some. And they said a lot about her. How did you go about writing this book then? Because it's a novel. But you kind of find yourself believing everything in it is true because your mom's voice seems so alive in it. Well, it is a novel. So what happened is that my mother died during COVID.

And like all people, I was completely overwhelmed. And, you know, I would sit down every day after she died to try to work. But, you know, I found that I couldn't work, surprise, surprise. And instead, I started to write to my mother. And surprise, surprise, my mother being my mother, started to write back. And as I became more involved with her, you know, in this way, I realized that I really wanted to understand her. I understand why she was the way she was.

And I thought I really needed to start at the beginning of her story. So I started a memoir. But part of my motive for writing the memoir was just writing it for myself. But part of the motive is that I wanted my children to understand her because they had not had a very good relationship with her either. And I wanted them to understand. So I wrote a little bit based on what I knew about her early days. And in particular, I told a story.

A story was about her losing her nursemaid when she was seven. My mother was seven and she was unweened, which sounds very peculiar from, you know, the point of view of the 21st century. But in fact, you know, the Chinese clearly had a lot of trouble with weaning. There are a lot of how two manuals about it. And I don't know if you've ever seen the movie The Last Emperor. Yes, of course. Pu'i is like 12 and he's on we. She was from quite a rich.

She was from a wealthy family, your mother. Yes, yes, yes. But anyway, so she's a very wealthy family, and they were having this problem. And so that, you know, but she was very, very close to this nursemaid. Nine-May. Yeah, her parents,

her parents fired the nursemaid just with no warning, which was really this terrible thing that had happened to her. And when I told the story to my children, you know, just the facts of it in this, memoir-like thing I was writing, you know, they reacted, but not very strongly. And I thought, you know, this is really a terrible story. And it is the one thing that my mother told me when she was 92, where she cried. And, you know, 90 years later, she's still crying. And I thought, you know, let me try it as fiction. And so I made, the nursemaid, we don't know anything about

her. We don't know her name. We certainly don't know what she wore or what her person. personality was like. So all of that is fiction. But, you know, I am a fiction writer. So I made up this nursemaid. And she was, the mercenade is quite rambunctious. And then I drew in my mother as I imagined her. And my mother was also quite rambunctious. And then I drew in some secondary characters and I, you know, I made up some scenes. And this time, when I showed it to my kids and they read it, then they felt it. You know, then they were really moved. than they really felt for my mother. And I thought, oh, my God, this is the way in, you know, this is the way into the story.

I will say, too, that as I began to think that I was going to really write this book, you know, once that idea was sort of dawning on me, I realized that I just had an incredible amount of material to work through, you know, that in order to understand my mother, you're going to have to understand all of the 20th century Chinese history and more, right? And also, you know, my kids insisted that I'd be in it. And, of course, it is very much about my relationship with her. And, you know, there's just so much. And once you fictionalize, you can do a lot of things, you know.

You can compress a lot of things. For example, yeah. Yeah, you know, I had tons of people who were just wonderful people in my lives. I have many, many, many angel figures. And but rather than sort of saying, like, you know, this woman helped me when I was the second grade and this teacher helped me when I was in third. and another one helped me when I was sixth, you know, I can roll them all into one fictional character,

which was Mrs. Cunningham. And I could pay tribute to all of them by just making her wonderful. Yes. But there is no Mrs. Cunningham. I made her up. The joy of being a very talented writer, Gish. You also invent a scene of when your mother, no doubt like many of the Chinese women,

moved to the US and was met by a culture shock. What would they have been up against your mother's generation? Oh, of course. Well, first she was up against the world that she had come from, right? That's why she left. So, you know, this book is very much about the sexism that she faced. And of course, we have sexism here in the United States. That's true to this day. Sexism in China in the 1930s was a whole different thing. In truth, at that time, a lot of girl babies were still being drowned. I have to say that, you know, that to some degree has continued right up to now. I mean, I was talking to a journalist friend just the other day, and I asked her, well, so, you know, what were the numbers recently? And she reminded me that, you know, it varies by place, from place to place. But, you know, in Chandong in the 1990s, you know, there were 130 boys born for every 100 girls. So that's in the 1990s. So when I talk about sexism, I'm talking about sexism capital S.

And in my mother's case, my mother was very, very smart. And so even though she's born to this, you know, fabulously wealthy household, she was expected really to say nothing. Her mother was the ideal. Her mother, you know, in garden parties, just kind of, my mother said, kept to the background. You just didn't hear her too much. And very famously, my grandmother was never heard to laugh aloud. To me, that's just unbelievable.

So when they talk about self-control and what a woman should be, they're talking about somebody who does not laugh raucously. as I have my mother do in my book and as I do myself. It's extremely restrictive. And then, of course, you came to the United States and faced a lot of challenges there as well. I mean, you had a very complex relationship with your mom, and we learned so much about it. I mean, people will have to read the book because it is brilliant. Has this writing it been a healing for you?

And how has it made you think about your own relationship with your children? Oh, it has absolutely been healing. I mean, I did not write this as therapy, or put it this way. If I were writing it as therapy, I certainly would not be publishing it, right? I mean, it is a novel. It is something as I've seen, it is very crafted. And, you know, probably during a lot of the writing of it, a lot of the writing of it was very emotional, but a lot of it is very professional. You know, I'm thinking a lot about how to handle my material and so on.

But, yes, it's very healing, not just to have written about it, to been able to make something. of it, you know, to be able to, I guess it's a lot like having a child die, you know, of some horrible gun incident. And not just to mourn, but to be able to start, you know, an organization devoted to, you know, to eliminating gun violence. You know, it's a whole different order of thing. And yes, it's very healing because, not just that you've written about it, because you feel the strength of who you've become, I guess, you know. And so, you know, it's, then I, it's the time when you realize that, yes, I am no longer that child. I am now Gisjean the novelist.

That's a very different thing. And I'm very happy to report that, yeah, today I have healed and I've been able to create a very, very happy family. I have a wonderful relationship with my daughter. It's nothing like my relationship with my mother at all. And that's a very, very happy thing. Yes, absolutely. That's what it's about breaking the cycle.

It is a great book. Thank you for speaking to us. Thank you for joining us, Gis Jen, and the book is Bad, Bad Girl. Highly recommend it. Now, restaurant chain McDonald's have announced that they will bring in new sexual harassment training for managers.

These are strengthened measures that were agreed with the Equality Watchdog. That's the Equality and Human Rights Commission to protect McDonald's staff from abuse. This is all following a BBC investigation that started two years ago, which found that workers as young as 17, were being groped and harassed. BBC reporter Nur Nanji has been covering the story from the start

and joins me now, morning, Nur. Your first investigation was two years ago. How were you alerted to the issue? Yeah, that's right. So in 2023, McDonald's signed an agreement with the equality watchdog, pledging to protect its staff from sexual abuse. And that followed concerns about how complaints were being handled in its UK restaurants. And when we initially were reported on that, as did many other members of the media, we started hearing from McDonald's workers and people were getting in touch with us to share their own experiences and their allegations of abuse while working there. So that's what alerted us to this issue in the first place. And we started investigating further myself and my colleague Zoe Conway. And over a

four-month period, we traveled across the country. We met many workers. And I have to say, Initially, many were incredibly nervous about talking to us. There were obviously concerns about speaking up around that sort of topic. But over time, we did manage to build trust and we promised them anonymity if they would talk. And over that period of time, we ended up speaking to more than 100 workers who wanted to tell their stories. And what did they tell you? Well, many of the people that we spoke to were teenagers, some were as young as 17, some in their first jobs. And they told us that they faced a culture of sexual harassment, bullying, abuse.

We spoke to one young worker, Shelby, who told us that she would be touched up in the kitchens, almost routinely when she went into work. And she painted this picture of a workplace that was where sexual harassment was rife. And others told us that managers were the ones that were abusing them. Now, we first reported and broke the story in July of 2023. That's when we first put out our original investigation. And actually that led to even more people coming forward. And as recently as earlier this year,

McDonald's staff told us that they still faced sexual abuse and harassment. Give us a sense of who this is happening to. The demographic of McDonald's is the abuse towards women or men. And is all of that part of the cultural problem? What's happening? Yeah, it's a really good question. So I would say in terms of women or men, out of the initial 100 people we spoke to, and then indeed the ones that have come

forward since then, primarily they were young women, saying the abuse was coming from primarily male colleagues. But we also did speak to some young men who said that they were also being preyed on by older women and older men as well. And then in terms of the age and demographic, I mean, most McDonald's staff are very young, their age between 16 and 25. For many, like I said, it's their first job. And even the senior managers are often very young and there's a fast turnover of staff as well and there can be benefits to that sort of set up it's often very flexible that kind of work which means that a lot of the people we spoke to were fitting in shifts around school or college and so they could make it work for them

but also having such a young workforce has also been seen as possibly being part of the problem here because often it means that you have young managers managing even younger staff members and a lot of the people we spoke to describe the whole workplace as a bit of a playground atmosphere sphere. So what did the Equality and Human Rights Commission do about it? What do they do about it then? And what action are they suggesting now? So the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which is the UK Equality Watchdog, they signed this legally binding agreement with McDonald's back in 2003, where McDonald's pledged to protect their staff from sexual harassment. And now they're intervening again. As of today, we've heard that they're introducing a new, whole new set of

measures which are aimed at protecting McDonald's staff from sexual abuse. And those steps include things like new sexual harassment training for managers and franchisees as well, focusing on the grooming of young workers. And they're also bringing in this external body to review whether it is handling sexual harassment claims appropriately. Why hasn't McDonald tackled it? Well, McDonald's would say it has been tackling this through measures that it's implemented over the past couple of years. And the Equality and Human Rights Commission, we should say that while they said they needed to agree these stronger actions with McDonald's, they were also pleased with the steps that the company was now taking. But we also did speak to an employment lawyer at Lee Day,

Kieran Dorker, who said to us that the fact, she thinks the fact that the commission has had to come back at all suggests that McDonald's may have not done enough over the past two or three years to comply with what was wanted of them. What have they said about it now? Well, at the time of our initial investigation, McDonald's apologised and said that it would set up a new unit to deal with complaints. So that is in effect. Today, McDonald's said that alongside its franchisees, it has embedded an extensive set of robust and far-reaching initiatives to ensure a safe working environment. It said it welcomed the new measures, which would build on the significant progress that it's already made in this space.

And they also said that they were confident the measures they have all. already implemented our working and making a difference. And from what you've heard, No, how are the staff feeling? Well, we did speak to one former McDonald's employee who actually had been part of our initial investigation back in the summer of 2023. She's called Veronica. And she said to us that she did not think that these new changes would make any difference. She said that they've looked at what they can possibly do in terms of what will sound

promising enough, but not actually bringing about any change. And she said that she feels that she doesn't think they have any personal desire to make the change and that it's all a bit of a checkbox for them to tick. And I suppose we'll have to wait and see if this does lead to real change. We will and I'm sure you'll be keeping a close eye on it and come back and tell us. For now, though, BBC reporter Nurunanji, thank you very much. Now, writer and producer, Nova reads, new podcast, hidden. histories with Nova Reid delves into the black women pioneers who are either little known

or who've been erased from history. The six episodes include remarkable women such as the legendary warrior queen Nanny of the Maroons to the groundbreaking journalist Barbara Blake Hannah. Episode six features Dame Jocelyn Barrow, who was an educator and a tireless campaigner against racial discrimination. She was appointed to numerous key roles and became the first black woman governor of the BBC. She was also the founder and deputy chair of the Broadcasting Standards Council which was replaced by Offcom

and the British Film Institute, just to name a few. Nova joins me more. Welcome to Women's Hour to shed light on this incredible woman who should be well known but she isn't. Why not? I mean, there's so many reasons why not.

And firstly, thank you, Anita, for that warm welcome. One of the reasons I started Hidden Histories with Nova Read was because I was kept in the dark in my schooling I learned nothing about these formidable black women who've paved the way who all have links to or ties to the Caribbean in some way that were doing extraordinary things

in history and Dame Jocelyn Barrow is one of them like you've just you've just read some of her bio she achieved so much and was across so many different industries empowering black people educating holding politicians to account campaigning for law change

and her name is relatively unknown amongst too many people we will talk about why it's important to know about these hidden histories that shouldn't be hidden but let's celebrate Jocelyn Barrow and learn about who she was and how she became

who she became she left Trinidad in 1959 and moved to the UK as part of the Windrush generation. Tell us a bit about who she was as a child, her upbringing and And what she encountered when she arrived to the UK? Well, she was born and raised in Trinidad. She had a lot of high self-esteem.

She was in a lot of political activism from a young age, I think sort of around 19, early 20s. And so she already had a very, very solid foundation of worth. And she travelled to England as part of the Windrush generation to advance her studies and to learn English, to study English, I should say. She was already a teacher. And she was just starting to recognize that there were just these woeful discrepancies in the ways that middle class white children were being treated in terms of the resources that they had in schools to the ways that black children and particularly black children from the Caribbean were being treated.

And then that's when she started to use her political prowess to start campaigning and advocating for better. Yeah, because education was a big tool in her activism and she challenged, I mean, it's shocking to even read it out really. She challenged the labelling of Caribbean children as being educationally subnormal. Yeah, she was one of many. There was another woman called Gertrude Paul who was another educational leader around the same time and she was the first black head teacher in Leeds. And so they would have all been networked into the same thing. So they had the educational, they used to call the schools, ESN schools, which was for schools for the education. and subnormal. And what that meant back then was anybody who we would now describe

with people with disabilities or special educational needs. But they were labelling them and branding them subnormal. Based on what? Based on whether they had a disability. So very ableist. And then also in terms of the discrimination that Dame Jocelyn Barrow was seeing was on Caribbean children and they were automatically labelling Caribbean children as less intelligent because they were coming from a different country because they were speaking patois and because they weren't achieving the same and they weren't taking any consideration

that some of these children may be dealing with culture shock maybe dealing with learning differences and they were branded educationally subnormal. Or maybe just have a different accent. Or maybe just have a different accent and instead of being cared for and nurtured and taught, they went into these schools and they were taught to clean. Yeah, it's shocking to think about.

After being inspired, she had a meeting with Martin Luther King Jr. in 1964 and she helped found the campaign against racial discrimination. How did that meeting influence the British race relations movement? Yeah, so Martin Luther King Jr. was visiting, he was sort of passing through England on his way to win a noble peace price. And he really, really galvanised civil rights activists in the UK that were really struggling with a hostage. the racial hostility on the ground in the UK, it was legal to discriminate against someone based on race. There were no laws against it at that time. And so Dame Jocelyn Barrow, amongst others,

other things including the Bristol bus boycott as well, Dame Jocelyn Barrow was a founding member of CARD and they were advocating for policy change and to make racism illegal in Britain, which they successfully did in 1965. and the anniversary of that is tomorrow, the 8th of November, to make racism in public places illegal. It was not fit for purpose, though, the act.

Many people who were arrested under the act happened to be black or Asian people who are holding boundaries around the racism and they were experiencing from white majority nations. And 70% of the people who were arrested under that act fell outside of what are the guidelines that Card and Dame Jocelyn Barry actually set racial discrimination war.

was. So Dane Jocelyn Barry was paramount in reviewing the Act, again in 1968, using her political prowess to review the Act and get it cleared in Parliament, where it was now going to be illegal for people and employers' housing to discriminate against people based on race. So what was going around that time, we had things like we didn't have legal segregation in Britain, not formal, I would say, but we had segregation. So there was a lot of housing discrimination. We saw signs no blacks no dogs no irish people would refuse to rent to people with black or brown skin or they would rent and then exponentially increase how much they would charge for people to lift in rat infested squalor and then people could not get jobs um racism was rife on

oxford street people who were black were not allowed front facing roles being told to go into the back and dame jocelyn barrow had enough she went into marks and Spences, there was a sign on the door at the time that said they were hiring and so she went in and inquired and they said oh sorry the jobs have been taken and she said I would take that sign down

or you hire black and brown people and she did that and got it and got it advocated for them to stop being racist you've just mentioned that tomorrow is the 60th anniversary for the Race Relations Act and initially it didn't explicit

include discrimination within the metropolitan police and its duties. And I'm sure you're aware, an internal review which came out today found that discrimination against black people is baked into the MET. Do you think they're committed to addressing the issue? And I just wonder what, I mean, we don't know, but I wonder how Dame Jocelyn would have reflected on that. She probably would have found it diabolical and would still be on the ground doing the work that she had been doing for so many decades earlier.

So what I will say is there was a revision after 1968 Act, two in the United States. include giving employers the right to employees the right to sue their employers in 1976, but still the metropolitan police and other public bodies were immune from that act. So therefore, the police could continue to discriminate based on race, which of course they did. And it was the campaigning of Baroness Lawrence, Stephen Lawrence's mother, who successfully got a new act introduced in 2000, which includes the police being able, not being able to discriminate based on race. So the fact that we have yet another report that has come out that is basically highlighting

the same thing. This report has been done by Dr. Shereen Daniels, a black woman, and it's called 30 Patterns of Harm. It's highlighting the same things that have already been highlighted for decades in the Metropolitan Police. And that to me demonstrates that they're not willing to change. What should we read into the fact that it's three black women who have done this? who have had to bring this to the attention.

Yeah, black women are off. I mean, hidden histories with Nova Read is a great example. So many black women are, they're not just at the forefront of harm, but they're at the forefront of solving problems and reducing harm. So it doesn't surprise me that we've got another pioneer, another formidable women like Dr. Shereen Daniels, having to go into an institution that is historically hostile to black people. And then to highlight, once again,

this is an ongoing enduring issue. that needs addressing. And if we can't even name what the issue is, we will continue to perpetuate harm. And that's something that Dame Jocelyn Barrow was campaigning against. I think we should hear her voice. Here's a clip of Jocelyn Barrow from 2017, sharing her thoughts with the University of Law

on what she considered to be the greatest improvements in diversity. We have made tremendous progress, both in the issue of race, which is something that people can easily identify because we don't all look the same way. And in the fact that people have been able to get to university, to do well, to get good jobs, etc. We still, however, have, and the lie in the whole society, some forms of institutional racism, and we get it in different places.

It isn't overt racism as when I first came to this country in 1959, but it's there. and people's inner feelings, although they may not be expressed, are still being played out. And I think that we have to try and free ourselves. We have to treat each other as equals. It's always magic when you hear people's voices. I mean, the whole podcast series for you must have been just so empowering.

I mean, she was, you started by saying she came from a political background. She had incredible self-esteem because I was pondering on what it takes. to be that powerful in an age where there is so much discrimination against you just based on how you look for to then to go into spaces and hold your own and fight for change says something about her character. She once tried to debate Enoch Powell after the rivers of blood speech. But tell me the story. What happened? Well, she went into debate with him and he walked out. He wouldn't face her. He wouldn't debate with her. He did not see her as an equal. he probably would not have been able to stand his own against her.

She wasn't afraid. There was a fearlessness to her, and there's a fearlessness to many of the women in hidden histories with no read. But she deserved to be here. She deserved to take up space. She was a force. She did not shrink herself. And she demanded better for everybody all of the time.

I must say, we've been talking about the Met Police and Commissioner Sir Mark Rowley said the force recognized the scale of the challenges. We must move on to her becoming the first black woman governor of the BBC, as we are in the institution. She used that role to increase representation and opportunities for black and Asian people. What impact did she have on British broadcasting? I mean, there's a part of me that would like to say it's been exponential, but I would say representation in BBC broadcasting is probably less than what it was in the 80s and 90s when I was growing up. However, she campaigned a lot to get more representation on screen.

I think she was paramount in getting more restuate and just, you know, getting more people who were doing brilliant work to deliver our news. And I have no doubt that some of the work that she was doing absolutely helped inform Barbara Lake Hannah, who became the first BBC reporter on, sorry, the first ITV reporter on what we now know as ITV news. And so she was paramount. She was in every single institution. I wonder what she'd say about race in Britain today. I think she'd find it diabolical, and she'd probably be turning in her grave.

How important has it been for you to make this series? Really important, just to let people know about amazing human beings that are doing formidable work that enable me and you to be in the positions that we're in today, doing the work that we do today, and honouring and acknowledging them and naming them, and also just acknowledging them beyond what they achieve. and celebrating who they were as human beings in their humanity because quite often as black women we're seen as strong and stoic and these activists at the forefront of social change

and there's also so much more to us than that and that was really important for me to talk about in Hidden Histories as well. Thank you so much for coming in to speak to us about Dame Jocelyn Barrow. We'll be listening to all of it. It's Nova Reid's new podcast, Hidden Histories, with Nova Reid. Nova, thank you. Pleasure. Now, Pauline Collins, the star, star,

of the film Shirley Valentine, for which she was Oscar-nominated in 1990, has died at the age of 85. Her career spanned stage and screen, including roles in iconic series such as Upstairs Downstairs, in which she played a parlour maid, but she will be best remembered for her portrayal of disgruntled housewife Shirley in Lewis Gilbert's award-winning film based on the acclaimed stage play by Willie Russell. It won her The Golden Globe for Best Actress, along with a BAFTA. Here she is a Shirley. I suppose I'd have been the same if I'd been born into their generation, because they discovered it, you see. The clitoris.

The clitoris kids, I call them, and good luck to them. Don't begrud them a thing. Mind you, it was different in my day. Do you know, when I was a girl, we'd never even cared to the clitoris. No, one, that? In those days, everyone thought it was just a case of in, out, in out, shake it all about. Stars had light up the sky on the earth. would tremble.

Hey, the only thing that trembled for me was the edboard on the bed. Do you know, when I first read about it, I thought it was pronounced clitoris. I think it sounds nicer that way. That even sounds like it could be a name. Oh, hi, clitoris. Oh, I know you.

That makes it sound a bit crude somehow. Oh, shut up. Why not? Plenty of men walking around called Dick. Absolutely brilliant. So here she is talking to Jane Garvey on Women's Hour in 2017 about trying to be a teacher. I knew what teaching should be like from my mother and father

and my aunts and uncles, all of whom were teachers, who believed that it was a vocation and that was going to be their life's work and indeed it was, in all their cases. And when I was doing it, having trained half as an actress and half as a teacher, I did it well because I knew I wasn't afraid. of it. I wasn't afraid of discipline, but I knew that I wasn't putting my heart into it,

because I had seen six hearts going into teaching surrounding me, and I knew what it should be like. So, I mean, in a way, holding the attention of a class isn't so different from holding the attention of a theatre audience, isn't it? No, it's a performance. I mean, you're trying to pretend that you know more than the children. And I did supply teaching mainly, and sometimes I'd be faced with a class requiring chemistry, of which I knew zilch. I think I got 13 in my O-level chemistry but what I used to do was get the cleverest child in the class

to help me and they were wonderful given responsibility I imagine that you have never in life found it difficult to make friends you don't see that sort of person no I haven't I'm interested in other people I mean I like

that's why I'm such a technophobe because I think we're distancing ourselves more and more from people by you know it's extraordinary to see kids sitting across a room texting each other instead of saying, how are you? Or do you want to come and play with me tomorrow?

Shirley Valentine, do you think it just spoke for so many millions of women that it couldn't have failed to have been a hit? I never thought of it that way. I mean, I did it as a stage play first, and it's a one-person play. It's Willie Russell's play.

And it's Willie Russell, and that's the thing that I tell everybody is that it's written by a man. So I guess Willie is the ultimate feminist. And I said, how did you know how to articulate the feelings of women so well? And he said, when he was a little boy, he used to sit under the table, the kitchen table, and listen to his mother and his aunt's talking. And he listened well, obviously. He has a tremendous ear for the voice of humanity. And is it true that they originally, when they made

the film, because Hollywood money comes into play there, obviously, they wanted share? Yes. And she would have been great. She wouldn't have been Liverpool but they would have adapted it for her because I think she's terrific, yeah. But I'm really glad that Lewis Gilbert, the director, said if it's not done with Pauline, it won't be done at all. How joyful to hear Pauline Collins voice there speaking to Jane Garvey on Woman's Hour in 2017.

And I'm going to read out a few of your messages, your Shirley Valentine moments. I did something for myself, Anita. I went on for an advisory interview at Eboric University, never believing as a working class woman, I would stand a chance. They were so kind and relaxed that right there I was offered a place with my stun starting preschool. I cycled there with him on the back, completed and honours and worked as a teacher for 33 years and loved it. Changed my whole future. Do something for yourself.

I might be a riot woman next. I'm going to join you. At age 59, on my own, I sold my house in London, gave up my job and moved to the north of England. Well done you. To write full time and be near my family. everyone said I was mad but even though I'm on a tight budget I get to see my grandkids every day

and write as much as I like best thing I ever did and as a mum of two little boys I obtained my private pilot's license in 1976 the following year had the chance to co-pilot a small single engine aeroplane to Dubai it took six days

was an incredible adventure and the following year I did it again becoming a pilot changed my life Jane thank you for your message and thanks to all of you've got in your inspiring messages I haven't had a chance to read all of them out but I will tell you that I'm back tomorrow with Weekend Woman's Hour. The literary icon and feminist Margaret Atwood will be on the program.

And if you're missing celebrity traitors, Kat Burns will be on the program to share her insights and her brand new album. Join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Our culture can cancel someone in the blink of an eye. Celebrities, sports stars, politicians, influencers and royalty can all find themselves in the firing line.

In the age of AI-generated evidence, lawsuits written in legalese, you need to pass the bar to decipher, how are you supposed to separate the fact from the fiction? That's where we come in. I'm Inishka Matandadowity, and this is Fame Under Fire from BBC Sounds. We'll mythbust, debunk, pre-bunk, fact-check, and get to the truth behind the timeline. There are new episodes every week, so make sure you listen to Fame Under Fire and subscribe on BBC Sounds.