Woman's Hour - Elaine Welteroth, Endometriosis, 150 Years at Uni

Episode Date: October 7, 2019

Elaine Welteroth is the former editor of Teen Vogue. She joins us to talk about her memoir More Than Enough and how she became the youngest ever Conde Nast Editor-in-Chief as well as only the second African American to hold a post like that. During her time at Teen Vogue she addressed feminism, climate change and racial justice as well as fashion and beauty. She discusses her mixed race identity, the obstacles she's overcome and the reality of getting your dream job. Today a BBC survey reveals just how disruptive endometriosis can be. At the same time an international conference in Denmark is taking place which is highlighting new research into the condition led by two women. We ask why so little is known about it yet it affects so many women. We celebrate 150 of women at University. It all started at The University of London. Then Girton College, Cambridge followed as well as Edinburgh University. So how has university education for women progressed over the years and what are the pressing issues today? Jane is joined by women of different generations. including the current NUS President Zamzam Ibrahim.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from the 7th of October 2019. It's actually Woman's Hour's birthday today. We are 73. Can you believe it? On this edition of the podcast, we mark women being in university education for over 150 years. There's an interview with the former editor of Teen Vogue, Elaine Welteroth, and we talked too about endometriosis. Now this was, it's a bizarre

thing to say in a way, but the BBC has really been focusing on endometriosis throughout the course of today. There's been a phone-in on Five Live, there was a feature on BBC Breakfast, it is all over the BBC News website as well, because this is a really debilitating and unpleasant condition that blights the lives of millions of women all over the world. It is about as common, we're told, as type 2 diabetes, but not very much is done about treating it in terms of how it starts, why it starts, and what can be offered to the women who suffer not just once a month, but actually every single day of the month in some cases.

So I started the programme by reading out some emails from you on the subject of endometriosis. A couple of emails that have already come in. Angela says, I was diagnosed with endometriosis when I had my uterus removed at the age of 33. I'd had problems since I started my periods at 13. In spite of severe pain with vomiting every month, I wasn't diagnosed with anything other than period pain. As a result, I lost my fertility. But since then, I am now 59. I have been pain free, which is fantastic. And I was able to have a daughter for which I am very, very grateful. My advice, says Angela, get a specialist referral at a young age when things can be more easily treated.

And another listener says, I'm sitting here in floods of tears listening to the stories today of women suffering. My symptoms also started at 13, took eight years to diagnose. I have had over 45 operations for the most severe endometriosis. Most surgeries were major and it's affected all aspects of my life. Keep highlighting this horrible, painful condition

as loud as any man would if he suffered for just one month. So some very powerful sentiments expressed there. You can understand it, can't you? At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, if you want to get involved. And we will have a further discussion about endometriosis a little later in the programme.

We want to start with a quick burst of politics. Over the weekend, the Green Party of England and Wales and Applied Cymru both held their conferences, both in Wales actually at the weekend, wrapping up today. Now you might well recall that both parties lost prominent female leaders in 2018. Caroline Lucas stepped down from the Greens, although she's still a prominent MP of course, and Leanne Wood of Plied was defeated in a leadership challenge. Let's have a word with Anoush Shikhalian who's a senior writer at the New Statesman magazine.

Anoush, good morning to you. Morning. Let's start with a quick word on Plaid Cymru. They do have one notable female in the House of Commons. That's Liz Saville Roberts. Tell me about her. Yes, well, she is the Plaid Cymru's first ever female MP. And she's prominent because she leads the group in Westminster and she's been essential to these cross party opposition talks trying to stop Boris Johnson from taking us into a no deal Brexit. And she's actually she's interesting because she says very eye catching things. So she probably gets disproportionate coverage.

You know, we always tend in Westminster to ignore the Plaid Cymru MPs, but she's been calling for Boris Johnson potentially to be impeached. And she's been sort of trying to encourage her sort of opposition, opposite numbers to consider that option. And actually, she's dredged up some comments from Boris Johnson, where he actually supported Adam Price, who's the current Plymouth leader overall, in wanting to impeach Tony Blair over the Iraq war. So she does some fun things. And she was the first MP to speak Irish in the House of Commons as well last year, calling for an Irish Language Act as well. Well, let's have a quick burst of Liz Saville Roberts. Here she is on BBC One yesterday

talking about Boris Johnson's tactics. The way he's facing this real test is just to throw the blame out in every direction possible. He's already been blaming members of parliament and effectively there's been sort of a mafiosa underlying, if you know what's good for you, you will stick with my Brexit deal, which of course doesn't just apply to MPs, that rolls out. And forgive me, I'm going to quote Dolly Parton here and Blue Smoke. It hurts to know you cheated and it hurts to know you lied, but it hurts me even more

to know you never even tried. And I think that's a fair comment on our Prime Minister at the moment. Yes, I mean, who doesn't quote Dolly Parton at times of crisis? We need to point out that actually, Plaid might be a Remain party essentially, or most certainly against a no-deal Brexit, but there's a very strong Leave vote in Wales, isn't there? Yes, there's a strong Leave vote in Wales. Wales voted to leave. Also, the Brexit party came top in

the European elections there as well. So Plaid Cymru is taking a bit of a risk with its new stance, which is basically second referendum until it looks like there could be a prospect of no deal and then revoke, a little like the Lib Dems. Their calculation is that Brexit has sort of turbocharged the enthusiasm for Welsh independence in the country. So they had this polling out that said 25% of people now would vote for an independent Wales tomorrow. And that's sort of much higher than previous polls have shown seven or 8%. That's what they're saying. They're saying Brexit has basically been a boost for our key policy. And so they've gone back to that quite old school nationalist Welsh message.

Let's talk about the Greens then. We know that. Well, actually, let's start with the fact that Extinction Rebellion, I think at 10 o'clock this morning, we're due to start a whole string of protests around London, we're told, for up to 10 days. What kind of impact does the activities of Extinction Rebellion have on the Green Party? Well, it's really tough for the Green Party, I think, because even though Extinction Rebellion are drawing attention to the causes that they've been trying to campaign on for such a long time, they can't sort of directly support everything that Extinction Rebellion does because their raison d'etre is to break the law. It is to get

people to say, I'm willing to be arrested for this cause. And so everything the Green Party announces, everything it does is just slightly less radical than what the Extinction Rebellion protesters are doing. So they have their Green New Deal policy for net zero carbon emissions by 2030. Extinction Rebellion want it by 2025. You know, you see, so everything they announce is slightly, you know, more urgent among the Extinction Rebellion people. But bearing in mind, we know that Extinction Rebellion are out to cause disruption. They make no bones about it. And many people, of course, are passionate supporters of the cause. What does the Green Party do in terms of allying itself to them?

I think that what's been interesting is at their conference, they've been talking a lot about young people, because obviously Extinction Rebellion attracts a lot of young people from the school strikes, climate strikes, as well as just in terms of the policies that they support for the next generation. So the Green Party has announced some interesting things, like saying they want 16-year-olds to be allowed to be elected to the House of Commons or appointed to the House of Lords,

and also a future generations sort of measure for every law that's passed in Parliament to make sure that we know the impact that that will have on future generations and also a climate chancellor as well, to try and ensure that those policies are in place. So they are, they are looking to the sort of audience that Extinction Rebellion attracts. And I think that's really the only thing that they can do. They can do, yeah. Sian Berry is co-leader of the Greens. She was on Sky Television talking to Sophie Ridge yesterday

about what she hopes for in any forthcoming election. We're coming off some of our best elections ever this year. We've more than doubled our number of councillors. We've more than doubled our number of MEPs in Europe. And we're in a very, very strong position at the moment. Other parties are keen to talk to us about working together. rydyn ni wedi cymryd cymaint o MEPau yn Ewrop ac rydyn ni mewn sefyllfa yn fawr iawn ar hyn o bryd. Mae rhai rhanbarthau eraill yn ymwneud â ni i siarad am gweithio gyda'n gilydd ac rwy'n credu ei bod yn bwysig bod pob rhanbarth yn edrych ar ble rydyn ni'n targed ein haslygiadau oherwydd yr hyn nad ydym am ei weld yw Brexit heb ddewr yn ystod y rhanbarth gan Lywodraeth cymdeithasol y Torri ac mae hynny'n risg

sydd wedi'i gynnal yn y cyfweliad cyffredinol yn y dyfodol. Felly rydyn ni'n barod i siarad â unrhyw rhanbarth sydd eisiau siarad â ni am wneud cyfrifiadau gwirioneddol And that's a real risk we run in the general election going forward. So we are prepared to talk to any party that wants to talk to us about making fair arrangements for fighting the general election in ways that target our resources. Now, Sian Berry is a London mayoral candidate, isn't she? She is generally overshadowed by Caroline Lucas, who is an MP. Is that good or bad for the Greens, do you think? I mean, it's a slightly confusing picture for those people who just like to be clear cut about who's the boss, who's in charge, who am I going to get if I vote for this party? Well, this is an age old problem for the Greens because Caroline Lucas has always been the face of the party, even when other people have been leader. For example, Natalie Bennett during the 2015 election.

And I think what happened last year when she stood down was the idea was to bring new talent up into the party. So get Sian Berry to be co-leader, Amelia Womack as deputy leader. So lots of other women as well. And I think for Sian Berry, actually, this mayoral election coming up will be her chance to actually cut through and be another figure because she is co-leader. So she'll get that coverage as a leader of a party, as well as the coverage as a male rule candidate. And that is the calculation that the party is making. But they do still have the Lucas problem in that she is their only MP in the Commons. You know, she's the one who's doing these cross party talks with opposition MPs. She's pretty formidable. She's not a bad problem to have. No, I mean, she's an excellent sort of talent to have in the party. And, you know, I don't know where they'd be without her, really. So it's, yeah, it's a double edged sword. Anoush, thank you very much. Anoush Akalian of the New Statesman

magazine. Now, here's a tweet from Lucy. When I was diagnosed by a specialist, this is endometriosis, my GP said this mystery pain could sometimes take up to 10 years to find. It was a dreadfully debilitating, agonising condition. Do push for the diagnosis procedure if you're suffering So the BBC has been exploring the issue of endometriosis already this morning. You may well have heard interviews and phone-ins on Five Live and elsewhere across the BBC, BBC television as well. It affects one in ten women, endometriosis, we're told. It's caused by tissue similar to the lining of the womb growing elsewhere in the body. Just listen to this.

This is Taylor. She's just 24. She's from Corby in Northamptonshire. And she told me how endometriosis affects her life. It's difficult. You know, I try my best to get up every day for work and hold down a full-time job, but it's not always possible.

Some days I can wake up and I can't walk. Other days I'll be manageable, but on the pain medication I'm on, still not best. You've got people that are going travelling at my age or they're going out on the weekends and having fun and I can't do that. I'm at home constantly so I go to work, I come home, I'm tired from being in pain all day and then I just need to sleep. Taylor what sort of pain relief are you on?

I'm on a lot of high opioid medication so I take Oramorf every day, fentanyl patches daily as well. I also take amitriptyline and naproxen too so yeah that's daily every day I have to take that to be able to you know get up and go out and do things I need to do so that amount of medication and that is purely to function not to be well but just to be able to get out of bed yeah I'm still in pain even on the medication that I'm on I'm still in pain every day it just makes it more bearable for me to be able to go out and you know hold down a job or you know go out with my friends or my family because if I wasn't on the medication I was on I'd be bedridden and how long has this been the case um I mean I've been in pain for 11 years so from the age of 13

it started um the pains got really bad the last three or four years, which is when I've started taking the opioid medication. So as soon as you started your periods, the problem began? Yeah, absolutely. The night it happened. So the night I started my period, that pain has been there forever. I'm just trying to imagine what that's like. So you don't have a cycle as such, the pain is constant. Yes, so my pain is there day to day. And then when I do have a break from my pill, which I only have it every five months now to reduce that pain. But when I have a break from my pill, regardless of what pain medication I'm on, I'll be laid up in bed and I can't walk.

So you have to write that period of time off, you can't work? Exactly. No, I book holidays, I don't have to take time off sick and use my annual leave on sick time rather than actually going away and doing things to enjoy. What are your long-term health prospects? Is this ever going to get better? There's no cure for endometriosis at all. So at the moment, no, that I could potentially have a hysterectomy. But as I said, that wouldn't even cure endometriosis. I know women that have had a hysterectomy six as I said that wouldn't even cure endometriosis. I know women that have had a hysterectomy six months later they're in agony again. So at the moment looking forward there isn't really anything. I don't know how long I'm going to be on these medications for or

what's going to change if anything's going to change is it going to get worse? I honestly don't know there's nobody knows. When your periods first started did you realise that what you were going through was not normal? I didn't at the start, no It was only when I first started seeing other girls at school that were able to take part in PE or they'd be able to go out and still have fun whilst they're on their period

and I'm at home in bed crying that I started realising that something was wrong but my mum and sister both have it too. So I sort of then had the chat with my mum about it. And then that's how it went about when I started going to the GP. And when you went to your GP and asked about how you were, what was the response? I'm too young was the main one. It was in my head or it's just stress or it's normal I had so many excuses that was my family doctor um male GP and then after seven years of him telling me no even though my family obviously my sister my mum had both been diagnosed I went to a female doctor and that was at the

point when she referred me to gynecology after seven years. There is a belief, I think, Taylor, that to a degree, women have put up with this for too long and that now we've just got to start talking about it and something's got to change. Are you proud to be a part of all this? Absolutely. You know, from the start, I was wary. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. But then I thought if there's another 13-year-old girl that was in my position back then, I would have loved somebody to say, you know, it's not in your head and it's not just you. It does happen to other people as well and know that there are other people going through the same as what they're going through. Well, that is Taylor, just 24, as I say, and her life is just blighted by endometriosis.

Lorna Hummels-Hoy is CEO of the World Endometriosis Research Foundation. Lorna, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, why are young women, and not just young women, suffering to that degree? Why is this still happening? Well, that's a very good question. Why is it happening? I think it is scandalous that we're not focusing on these young women who suffer for years, who are being told that they're too young to have endometriosis, when international research shows and has shown very, very firmly that endometriosis typically develops during the teenage years and into your 20s and 30s. So being told as Taylor did, and it was heartbreaking to listen to, that she was too young to have it, that it was all in her head,

is just not correct. What are the treatment options? There are multiple treatment options, but regretfully, many of these medications will put women into a fake menopause, if you like, or will suppress their symptoms for a while. effects and none of them can be used long term. And it's obviously not all right for young women to live off pain medication already in their 20s because these can have long term effects on their health as well. So a huge cornerstone of the treatment of endometriosis is surgery, where the disease is cut out. But this surgery requires very skilled surgeons. And we do not feel that there are sufficient surgeons to do this, and that these surgeons necessarily are trained sufficiently. Endometriosis surgery is as complicated, if not more complicated, than cancer surgery. It was easy for me to leap to the conclusion that there has to be a genetic component.

Taylor did mention that both her mother and her sister have it. Is that right? Our research certainly shows that certain types of endometriosis, and I might get back to that in a moment, certain types of endometriosis, and I might get back to that in a moment, certain types of endometriosis will have a hereditary component and that it runs in families. But we also are beginning to believe that what we call endometriosis today is more than one disease. It's a little bit like breast cancer. So some of it you can treat very successfully in one way,

and other you can treat very successfully in a different way. And some of these types of endometriosis yet to be identified are likely to run in families and have a genetic component. And there are lots of research going on in that regard, but we are woefully underfunded to do so. Can I ask, it might be an ignorant question, is it a Western condition? Is there a link to lifestyle at all, as far as you know? Absolutely not.

In my work, and I've travelled all over the globe, I see endometriosis everywhere. And interestingly enough, we actually have research in endometriosis going on on every continent and almost in every country. And there is no evidence to show that it is lifestyle related. We have to remember that if it starts when you're 12 or 13 years old, your lifestyle is very unlikely to impact on the disease. So how close are we, how close is anybody to finding a cure? I don't think we're all that close. As I said earlier, we're woefully underfunded. And until we figure out how and why endometriosis develops and how and why it turns into different types of disease, again, similar to breast cancer, we will not be able to develop targeted diagnostic tools, nor will we be able to develop targeted treatments for these different types of disease. And of course, because there has been idiotically a taboo about periods up until relatively recently, I suppose this conversation has barely got started in a way.

It's a difficult topic to talk about. Now, I heard Taylor say that she was told that it was all in her head. No, it's not. It's all in her pelvis. But we don't talk about menstruation. We don't talk about period pain. We don't talk about painful sex. And until we start that conversation, we're not going to focus on the fact that if you cannot go to school, if you cannot go to work, then your symptoms are not normal, and you need to seek help, and parallel to that, we need that investment in research because the scale of that research is important. It's not enough to do small studies. We need to do massive international studies with tens and thousands of women with endometriosis, because one size doesn't fit all. And we need to

capture everything that goes on in these young women and girls. So I know you're at a conference at the moment. What do you hope will come out of that conference? So at today's conference, two international researchers, in fact, one is a geneticist, Professor Krina Sondervan from Oxford University, and the other is Professor Linda Judice from University of California, San Francisco, are being honoured by Aarhus University as honorary professors. And we're taking the opportunity to run an open conference today at Aarhus University Hospital to discuss risk factors in endometriosis, as well as genetic components, and where we are with that research today. Well, thank you very much. And very briefly, Lorna, one listener is asking about addiction to opiates. Of course, Taylor mentioned that she was, well, she has to take very high strength painkillers every single day of her life. That must be a concern as well. It is a huge concern. As I said earlier, that type of medication will have long-term side effects as well. And we shouldn't be throwing

empirical treatments against these young women. We need to find the cause of the disease and also ensure that they have access to highly skilled surgeons that may be able to cut, if not everything, at least some of that disease out. A hysterectomy is not a solution unless all the endometriosis is removed at the same time. And there is still no guarantee that it won't return. Thank you very much, Lorna. Lorna Hummels-Foy, CEO of the World Endometriosis Research Centre. Your thoughts welcome, of course, and your experiences. You can email the programme whenever you like. Now, if you have the BBC Sounds app, and let's face it, you've got to have the BBC Sounds app by order of the BBC, coincidentally,

you will know that being a new or a hot podcast, a hot podcast, is a very, very important thing. And I can bring you the thrilling news this week that Woman's Hour is a hot podcast. In fact, there is a new episode of Woman's Hour for you to listen to right now. I'm talking to the You, Me and the Big C podcaster, Deborah James, and to the writer and activist, Scarlett Curtis,

as we listen back together to five frank and fearless Woman's Hour moments which include Nadia Hussain and 91-year-old sex therapist Dr Ruth Westheimer. It is a nice little, I don't know, digestible chunk of Woman's Hour incredibility and it's available now on the BBC Sounds app as a kind of neat little gift to introduce you to the concept of Woman's Hour as on the BBC Sounds app as a kind of neat little gift to introduce you to the concept of Women's Hour as a hot BBC Sounds podcast. Later on this week, you're going to be hearing on the programme from Catherine Gunn.

She's a GCHQ whistleblower. She is talking to Jenny on Friday because her story's been made into a new film, Official Secrets, starring Keira Knightley. That's one to look forward to on Friday. Now, this is good too. Elaine Welteroth is the award-winning journalist and former editor of Teen Vogue. She was the youngest ever and only the second ever African-American

to become a Condé Nast editor-in-chief. During her time at Teen Vogue, it became much more politically engaged. It was speaking to young girls about feminism and climate change and racial justice as well as fashion and beauty. I talked to Elaine about her memoir, More Than Enough, claiming space for who you are, no matter what they say. You know, early on in my life, my very first memory in preschool was really understanding what it is to be black, to be other, to be marginalized. And it was just a very simple class assignment that made me see this. The teachers asked us to do a family collage,

and they placed magazines in front of us and said, cut out people that look like your family. So what were your options? Yeah. Well, you'd be maybe not so surprised to hear that there were literally no one in those magazines who looked like my family, except for my white dad. Lots of options, white dads. So I kind of panicked.

I looked around and I felt really left out. And I decided, OK, I'm going to do what everyone else is doing. Cut out white people. So I made this what I call my white paper family. And I came home with it. And my mother took one look at it and said, sit down. Houston, we have a problem. We are redoing this assignment.

She pulled out Ebony and Essence magazines, which are black magazines. And she had both me and my brother redo it. And he was really not into it. He was like, what is this thinly veiled race exercise I've gotten myself drawn into? And we redid it. And my mom put that revised, realistic family picture onto, or collage onto my wall, my bedroom wall. And it was the first thing that I saw every morning and the last thing that I saw every night for years. And it was sort of her sort of defiant way of rejecting what the media was showing me

predominantly, and reinforcing the sense of pride in who we really were and who I really am. So can we talk about Harriet, who was your, well, she was an inspiration to you. You, well, just explain to people how you got in touch with her, because you were, who is she, first of all, and just how persistent did you have to be? examples of Black women in the media being true to who they are and really thriving across, you know, media platforms. And here was Harriet Cole, a shining star in media. She started her career in magazines, and then she moved on to what we now would call podcasting. She had syndicated radio shows. She had a, you know, television presence. She was unequivocally killing it. And here I was, at the end of my college career, feeling like I had to fit myself into one box, one title

that had to define my whole career. And no title felt like it fit until I saw Harriet. And she was sort of a multi-hyphenate before that was even a term. She was well ahead of her time. So I proceeded to stalk her until I got her attention. I snail mailed her phone, I called her assistant too many times. I emailed her and eventually I got the phone call that changed my life. We had an informational and... Well, but no, basically, they were just sick to death of you. Oh, they were sick to death. I mean, they really I think they thought I was an insane person. So Harriet actually rang you. I can't. So there you were in your you in your bedroom at home. I was in my bedroom at home. I'll never forget that moment.

And I was really prepared for this phone call was supposed to be 15 minutes. I had all my questions ready and lined up. And then it went for 45 minutes. And at the end of our phone call, which was really synergistic and great, great chemistry, at the end, I said, if there's ever an opportunity to work with you, please keep me in mind. And we hung up the phone and I was off to the races. I applied to every magazine job I could find. I applied to every internship I could find. I applied to every journalism school as a backup backup plan. And sure enough, I got my number one dream internship opportunity at Essence Magazine.

And when I was 30 days away from moving to New York from California from a small town in California my whole life was about to start Harriet called me back this is five months after our phone call and I thought this must be a butt dial there's no way she's actually calling me on purpose but on the other hand she'd obviously kept your details so she kept my details I thought this is a good sign and she offered me she said she had she remembered me. She was looking for a new assistant. She had a shoot down in Malibu. She remembered I lived in California. She asked she asked me if I'd meet her on set and work with her for the day. She'd pay me two hundred and fifty dollars. I said, I will pay you three me work with you. We haven't even got to who the photo shoot was of. And it turned out to be Serena Williams. And you were there. It was a dream come true. And it was sort of the beginning of this kind of Cinderella fairytale career story. So I dropped that other internship and I moved to New York to work with Harriet. And when you became an editor at Teen Vogue, the editor of Teen Vogue, was that a moment? Well, tell me how it felt in that exact moment where you were offered this opportunity. You'd earned it, but... many women, especially women of color. I think I was sort of dealt a tricky set of circumstances

where on one hand, yes, I had this incredible opportunity at the age of 29 to lead this magazine that I loved so much and that I had such a clear vision for at a really divisive time in our country. And we were well on our way to already kind of, you know, bringing politics into the conversation where there was once only the conversation of fashion and beauty and celebrity. And it felt like an important mission to carry forward in that moment. great opportunity alongside two other people and for a very small raise when you compare it to, you know, historically what editors-in-chiefs make, you know, even during that time in the middle of the recession. So it was a bit of a tricky challenge. But what was their justification? There really wasn't an explanation for why this was the offer. This was the offer and it was sort of take it or leave it. And it was also take it or leave it. You have 30 minutes to decide.

Do you think the same situation would have applied to a white woman? look at what history tells us. I can look at what the other examples in the building tell us. And if we rely on that information, I would say no. White man? I mean, you know, in one argument, though, you can say that there was a white woman and a white man who were being put in this position with me, but they were not on an editor-in-chief track. So, and they were not offered editor-in-chief roles. They were, but they were given the leadership power that I was being handed all at the same time. So it was a difficult situation for three talented people. And I think it was a bit of an experiment.

I think that this was, you know, we have to remember the climate. It's a difficult time of disruption for the media industry as many other industries. And I think that the I think the idea at Condé Nast was to try this young, you know, mix of disruptors, put them together, and let's see what they can do. And I think that the expectations were very low for what would happen. I think that they expected Teen Vogue to probably go under. I mean, because that's the trajectory that we were on in this very

challenging climate, especially for teen magazines. And what happened as a result, ultimately, was that we were able to transform that business. And we did it by honing in on a new mission, which was to empower, to inspire, to enlighten the next generation of young leaders by, you know, sharing stories and bringing stories to them that were about more than just fashion and lipstick. We delved deep into social justice and to the issues that matter to them. I really want the benefit of your wisdom here, Elaine. Let's say you are a young woman. You are offered that dream job like you were at Teen Vogue, that you know the money isn't right.

You know, actually, you're sort of being taken for a ride. Do you, though, still take the job? What I would say is only you know what you are capable of. Only you know what you can handle and what will make you – only you know what it will take to do the work that you're meant to do with a sense of dignity. In my case, I made the calculated decision to do the job anyway, to accept the offer, and to prove over the course of one year that I deserved a better offer from the beginning. And I decided that at the end of that one year, when I had exceeded all expectations, that I wouldn't stay another day beyond that first year without getting a commensurate salary and the benefits that come with the role that I was playing in

that organization. And for me, that strategy worked. Now, that was a few years ago. And I think we're fortunately living in a bit of a different era and in the sense that we are now talking about the wage gap. More often, we are talking about representation and inclusion behind the scenes more than ever. I think there is a sense at the top of many organizations that they want to do better. So I think that we are as young women, women of color in a better position than we were even two or three years ago. But it takes us being courageous in those moments to ask for what we're worth, to stand behind the number that we know we are valued at in order to change that standard for the next woman of color who's coming up behind us.

So it's really incumbent upon us to be courageous and to do it not just for yourself, but to do it for a generation of women who are coming behind you and for the generations of women before you who never had that opportunity. That is Elaine Welteroth, and there's more from her on the Woman's Hour Twitter and Insta. Just go to at BBC Woman's Hour to find out what Elaine wishes she'd known about life when she was a bit younger.

I mean, she's not that old now, but when she was even younger. Now, here's something worth celebrating as universities really click back into gear after what is, by anybody's standards, quite a long summer break. But they are starting again. And just over 150 years ago, British women were first admitted to university. Now, of course, female undergraduates outnumber males here and indeed across the world. Let's have a word with Zamzam Ibrahim, who's president of the NUS. She's

in our studio in Leeds. Zamzam, good morning to you. Morning. Your degree was in finance, that's right, isn't it? That is right. Okay, and also with me in London is Dr. Sheila Yoff, now associate professor at London Metropolitan University, where you are also, this is so impressive, head of computing and digital media, head of Computing and Digital Media, Head of Student Experience and Outcomes and Principal Lecturer in Biomedical Sciences. And Sheila, ex-ARMY as well. Hello, lovely to meet you. It's worth pointing out all three of us involved in this conversation

were the first, well, first people or first women in our families to go to university. What was your sort of educational background, Zamzam, or your family's educational background um so my father um it was a pilot so he went to piloting academy um and my mother was a teacher and so they both didn't essentially go to university they had some form of education um but they also but they also migrated from Somalia to Sweden and I was born in Sweden and I came here at the age of nine. So yeah, I was the first in my family to go to university.

And was that the same for you, Sheila? Yes, I was the first in my family to go to university. And how much did that mean to everybody else? I think for my family it encouraged other members of the family to think that they should be able to go to university as well. I know that my nephew felt it was a rite of passage when he went because he knew somebody who'd been to university. Yeah. Your own journey, I hate that word, but I've just used it, is an interesting one because you took your degree when you were relatively mature and already in the army yes um i was uh in my 30s when i took my degree i left school did my a levels and then did an hnc and was lucky enough when i was in the army to do my degree in a year

so um and the army being very good the day that i had at university i then meant i had to work saturday or sunday because i'd already had a day off. That's relatively understanding of them. Did no one suggest university was the right place for you at 18? No, I went to a comprehensive school where there was no real encouragement to think about doing much beyond A levels for those of us that were doing O levels at the time. And even when I was at college, there wasn't too much encouragement to think about going on to do a degree. It was a technical college I went to. Zamzam, it is incredible that women in terms of academia have made such progress over the last

100 years or so. Do you think there's a danger though now that because actually more women than men go on to university, university might start to be undervalued in some ways i mean not necessarily i think the i mean it's something to celebrate absolutely that women are outnumbering um men in in going to universities i mean i mean men have been essentially given a head start for decades um but but the reality is that those those numbers don't reflect in the institutions that we that we that we work in, that we study in. And so when the academics and the professors are disproportionately men, I think universities have a long way to go in ensuring that that level of representation exists within the organisation.

But also, again, there's a gender pay gap, there's so many issues that exist. And so actually, like, women attending university isn't enough or it doesn't essentially... Because when we talk about universities, and for me, I remember when I chose to go to university, to me it was the only way for me to be able to get out of the... Coming from a working-class background, it was the only way for me to be able to get out um of the coming from a working class background it was the only way for me to be able to provide and be able to essentially build myself

and and at the age of 18 I had I felt like I had no other choice but to go to university um where I wouldn't succeed in in in life that's essentially the the way in which I was raised um and and the way universe my college teachers would speak to, the way my high school teachers speak to me, it's like the only way for you to succeed is for you to go to university and go through these steps to be able to attain a good job. I wonder whether, from your experience, Zamzam, women, female undergraduates,

are studying the right subjects, so-called, in terms of the potential for a high-earning career? I think the reality is that we know that all women that are going into university right now will be earning less than their male counterparts that they are studying with and are probably going to attain the same grades as. And so the prospects in women coming into the industry,

knowing full well that there will be a gender pay gap, which has actually gotten worse to a certain extent over the years, is quite worrying. So I think we are setting, as a society, we are essentially setting women up to fail. And so there are a lot of institutional changes that need to happen. What would you say about that, Sheila? You're quite close, well, you have to be because of your job. You are quite close to the students. Yes, and I often feel the similar sort of situations where they've never been encouraged to sort of make their full potential. There's an element that they think women shouldn't be able to.

But, I mean, in STEM subjects, science isn't the best paid that you go out to anyway. But the women still earn less as scientists than their male counterparts. Well, there's also a gender pay gap in academic institutions. Exactly. Including your own, presumably. Yes. I mean, I have colleagues who, at the same level as me, earn more than I do because of just where your spot salary ends up.

So you end up stuck on a certain pay level. And, you know, you can't go along and argue and just say, well, why aren't we all paid the same at the same grade? Zamzam, do you think, from a value point of view, that university does hit the spot at the moment for the students themselves i mean i think universities are an incredible for me it was incredible part of my on my my story and and and and has has essentially shaped who i am today but i don't think universities are the are offering the value that they could do to to their students i think the reality is we talk about universities as a space of education, as a space of gaining knowledge.

They are still set up institutionally in the way they did centuries ago, essentially, and so way before women even attended university. And so the structures that exist right now are systematically there to benefit men. And, of course, there's been so much publicity lately about allegations of sexual harassment on campus. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, we know sexual harassment isn't something that is inclusive to campuses, right?

Like it's a societal issue as a whole. But also there are the reporting measures that exist on our campuses, especially within the Russell groups and the elite institutions who would like to cover it up rather than actually handle it through their processes. And I think there are a lot of changes that need to be seen by universities and leading in actually supporting the victims

rather than actually hiding it and trying to protect their institutional reputation. Thank you very much for being on the programme today. That's Zamzam Ibrahim, who's President of the National Union of Students. And you also heard from Dr. Sheila Yuff, who's from London Metropolitan University. Good to meet you, Sheila. Thank you very much for coming in. Now to your emails today on the subject of endometriosis, which was how this podcast began. This listener says, I'm 85 on Thursday and I had it. I had terrible pain. I was also very thin since the age of about nine in my case. I had to give up my teaching job. I had a retroverted

uterus and fibroids and during an operation in my forties, endometriosis was discovered. Nobody really understood. I have had two children, but I also lost three. My husband was asked if my womb could be removed. Now, I don't know whether your husband was asked because you were actually in the operating theatre and anaesthetised at the time, or whether that was the thing that was done in those days, the husband permission was asked, but either way, it's of interest. So thank you for that. The listener goes on to say,

I woke up after an operation in my 40s without a womb. And afterwards I thought, so this is what being alive feels like. Please recognise that when women complain, they do have a problem and young girls need to be listened to. Yeah, quite. Thank you. Another listener, my daughter is now in her 30s. She has suffered for many years. The NHS never took her seriously for a long time and dismissed it all as mere period pains. Eventually, she was offered a hysterectomy but declined. She's now in Australia, where she's had excellent treatment and has been taken seriously. Yeah, that should have been one of my questions, actually, to the academic I spoke to at that conference. But that's a good point. Perhaps somewhere else in the world deals with this

better. Another listener, I don't have endometriosis, but I'm shocked at how little I know about it and that one in 10 of my female relatives and friends may have been suffering and I've had no idea. My point is that if it affects so many women, all women should know about it so we can support other women in the workplace, in their lives and as friends, etc. This must be a taboo. Nobody has mentioned this as a potential issue when I started my period. None of my friends have come out to me and said I have endometriosis, yet I wish they feel they could. I have one friend who I suspect has this, but she keeps it to herself and that's her choice. The trouble with nobody talking about it is that it leads to people like me, who don't know enough about it, to be a rubbish friend,

because when she says, oh no, I won't come out today, I've tended to think she's being weak or Yeah, that's an interesting one. Thank you for that. D says, been mentioned as a treatment. I have endometriosis and a coil has stopped my pain. Perhaps not for everybody, but it has worked for me. Please let other women know about this option. Thank you for that. And this is a long email, but it's a really good illustration of just the amount of suffering that women are expected to go through. I won't mention your name, but you know who you are. I suffered from endometriosis for 25 years from the time I started my periods at 13 till a hysterectomy at the age of 29. I had a lot of problems with both my pregnancies and was taken into hospital two months before my son, my first child, was born. My daughter was born two and a half years later, but although I was very ill, at least I wasn't hospitalised before her birth.

In 1977, my periods became worse with heavy bleeding and cramps. Eight doctors in my local practice, all male, none of them did anything except hand out painkillers. I honestly couldn't go very far because of the heavy bleeding and I had no energy. I was at the surgery so often that one doctor actually told me to my face that I was neurotic and he'd give me tranquilizers. I desperately wanted to be sterilized because I just couldn't face any more pregnancies but I was under 30 so I was told it was not done. I was adamant. I finally got an appointment with a specialist in the January of 1980. He said he would try to schedule the operation for April.

April came and went. In June, I fell apart all over a lovely locum who told me I should contact the specialist directly. I went straight out of the surgery, phoned the hospital and told his PA I would camp out in the office until he operated on me. It worked. Four days later, I was admitted and he told me after the operation I had the worst case of endometriosis he'd seen in over 20 years of operating. All my internal organs were stuck together and he'd burned off as much as he could but couldn't get all of it. Unfortunately he didn't take out my ovaries and especially I wasn't put on any medication to chemically remove the residue.

So I had 10 years of what amounted to a menopause, which was awful for me and my family. In fact, it led to the breakup of my marriage. It wasn't until I moved away and a female doctor prescribed HRT that within a fortnight of beginning on it, I became a functioning human being again. It's painful and it's debilitating. And I just hope that this latest research into it will prevent more women suffering like I had to. Well, thank you to that listener. Unbelievable. And just a grim experience over decades of her life. So I really feel for her. Again, I don't want to mention your name particularly, but we are very grateful to all of you actually for being willing so often to share your experiences with us. Join us tomorrow for the programme and the podcast. My guests will include the actress Zoe Wanamaker.

Hello, I just wanted to tell you about my new podcast. It's called Classical Fix and it's basically me, Clemmie Burton-Hill, each week talking to a massive music fan. I mix them a classical playlist, they have a listen, they come in and we just see where the conversation goes. If you like to give classical music a go but you haven't got a clue where to start, this is where you start. To subscribe, go to BBC Sounds and search for Classical Fix. Now then, as you were. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories Now then, as you were. Dig? The more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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