Woman's Hour - Electing to home school. Trisha Goddard on the power of Oprah.

Episode Date: March 9, 2021

As Children return to school across the UK an increasing number of parents are choosing to educate their children at home on a permanent basis. Many have enjoyed home schooling their kids during Covid and see it as an opportunity to explore a new way of learning. Critics however are concerned that it’s unregulated. We hear from Gail Tolley from the Association of Directors of Children's Services and to Hannah Titley from the Home Schooling Association. Trisha Goddard who had her own UK day time talk show for over a decade on why Oprah is the Queen of confessional TV interviews. Plus Stephanie Guerilus, senior editor and staff writer at the Grio, an American website with news and video content geared toward African Americans, tells us how the interview gone down with the American audienceFor over 20 years, Maria Cahill has stood by her claims that she was raped by a member of the IRA when she was 16, and was retraumatised when the issue was handled by a IRA kangaroo court. But a few days ago The Guardian newspaper issued an apology to her regarding a controversial article published in 2014. The journalist? Roy Greenslade, who used to write for The Guardian and later became a lecturer in journalism and ethics. Two weeks ago he disclosed that he was a supporter of the IRA and a member of Sinn Fein - a revelation that has caused major ripples, even prompting comment from the Prime Minister In that article from 2014, he criticised the BBC documentary which revealed Mairia's story for failing to include the fact that she belonged to an anti-Sinn Fein political party at one time. She tells Emma why she thinks the article and his recent disclosure of his political affiliations which were hidden at the time - undermine what she'd been through as a survivor of a rape, continuing to add insult to injury.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Coming up on today's programme, for over 20 years, Maria Carhill has stood by her claims of rape by an IRA member, but recent events, including an apology from the Guardian newspaper, have brought it all up again. We'll talk to Maria about that. We also examine the rise of educating children at home, not homeschooling.

As we have come to know it, there is a big difference. But what is prompting the rise? And should there be a national database from the government with regards to the number of children being educated in the home or certainly away from school. But first, we're going to look at the one definite winner from last night's interview with the Duke and Duchess of Sussex. I say last night, that's when it was available to UK audiences. And that winner is Oprah. We're going to look at how she changed broadcasting, our relationship with famous people, even the way that perhaps we talk about ourselves and what we share and what we don't share. The British TV host, Tricia Goddard, will be joining me shortly. I'm sure she's got many things to share, perhaps about the interview, but also about her own experiences. What I wanted to

ask you this morning, as Meghan and Harry talk about their fairy tale ending to the Queen of Daytime Television, what do you believe the next step is for the Queen, Her Majesty the Queen and the royal family? What should they or could they do next in response to the interview that everyone is talking about, even if you didn't watch it? And there will be some of you, I'm very aware this morning, saying, can we please talk about something else?

And I promise you, we are. I've already told you a few of those issues. But for a lot of people, it will have been the opportunity to watch it in full last night and take a view. You can also share that view with us. You already were yesterday. Text WOMENSHOUR on 84844. What do you want to hear or see from Her Majesty the Queen, from the royal family? Or perhaps you think nothing will be forthcoming and perhaps that's the way to go with this, or perhaps not. Do let us know what you think. We're all ears, as always, on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour, or email us through our website with your view and experiences of perhaps watching it. Even if you didn't want to, you may have just ended up

sitting there for a good two hours. Now, last night, as UK audiences were finally able to see Oprah Winfrey's interview, millions did tune in. Figures are still yet to be revealed, but we know ITV's digital play, it's called ITV Hub, reportedly crashed under the weight of viewer interest. You may have loved it, you may have hated it, you may have steered clear, but that real winner, it's the woman asking the questions last night. America's first black female billionaire, Oprah Winfrey. She is nothing short of a television phenomenon, the very definition of a self-made woman, born into poverty in rural

Mississippi in 1954 to a teenage single mother. By her early 30s, she'd become the queen of the daytime television world. The Oprah Winfrey Show, which ran from 1986 to 2011, became the highest rated TV show of all time in America, and her in-depth confessional approach to interviews even acquired its own dictionary definition, Oprahfication. Starting as a show for the general public to open up about their lives,

it developed into a space for the confessions of a more starry cohort. Ellen DeGeneres famously came out as a lesbian on Oprah's sofa. Whitney Houston talked about her drug use. Lance Armstrong admitted to doping to win at all costs. Oprah has also taken a no-holds-barred approach to her own life, which has included sharing her ongoing struggles with her weight.

You may remember in 1988, she lost a whopping 67 pounds in just a couple of months and celebrated it by dragging the equivalent weight of fat in a wagon behind her on air. What is the key then to her success? Our first guest this morning enjoyed her own very successful television career with her own daytime chat show. I'm sure many of you watched it first on ITV, then Channel 5. Tricia Goddard, good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning, Emma. What is it about Oprah, first of all?

Lots to discuss, but what do you think it is? She's been to the mountains, you know, she's waded through all sorts of hell. She's lived, she's lived. And, you know, I think when you sit down with an interviewer, if you sense or you know or you pick up a vibe, you know. For instance, if I sit down with somebody and talk to someone and they've had, for instance, mental health issues, there are subtle ways they use language, certain things they say. You know, you click, you know, like at a party or something, you say, oh, I just got that vibe from you.

And obviously the more life experiences that you've had, the more relatable you are, the better. And if you remember when Oprah started in television, the interviewing style was very combative. And those kinds of interviews, you know, I remember being in Australia as a news and current affairs journalist, and a very well known British journalist came out to lecture us and basically said, you know, you women are far too emotional when you interview guests, you know. And there was this very heated discussion about how women tended to get too emotional.

And then the war correspondents started getting very emotive stories from people, from women, if you remember, in the Serbo-Croat war and what have you, and really adding some dimension to the atrocities of war by talking to women. And then this particular journalist actually admitted later that he started doing that. And they got a more of a 360 degree view of what war was like. It wasn't just this troop moving to there and et cetera, et cetera. So talking to people about their experiences

became a different way of interviewing people. And still to this day, you will get more from a guest, whether you're doing news and current affairs or politics or whatever, you will get more from a guest with that kind of approach than the combative, if you like, you know, Piers Morgan type approach. I think it's old fashioned. It's going out of style.

Yes, you get results out of people. But what people are actually tuning into is a verbal fist fight. How much information do they get and how much more would they get with a different approach? There's somewhere in between as well, though, which was where a lot of people operate. And there's also a difference in style as well with America and Britain. And actually, you could argue, really, the story of Meghan and Harry a lot of the time has been also that difference, you know, cultural difference between the American way perhaps of doing it and the British way, as well as a whole other host of differences which came out.

I just wonder, as a fellow broadcaster, do you think Oprah did a good job? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. When she didn't get an answer to a question, instead of beating them over the head, she was very clever. She left it alone, went on to something else and then to use a very American term, circle back.

I knew you were going to say that. Have a nice day now. But no, she, she, she, she circled back to it. And I think, you know, people ask me, I, I used to hate being called, um, you know, Britain's answer to Oprah, cause I felt that was more about color than, than style. Um, but because I come from a journalistic background, if you like, and, and, and she didn't, but, um, the other thing is with facial expressions. And I use facial expressions a lot, not intentionally. I mean, it's been pointed out to me during my career.

Some of the best questions I've ever asked, I've never said a word. And looking at Oprah, you know, the gasp, the stop and wait a minute, you know, because it's like talking to a friend. She likes the word wow as well. I noted the word wow down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we all have our different things like she'll even mouth it, you know, but also body language is a really important thing as well.

I mean, I learned that very early on with guests. I mean, well, I was just going to say she's a very serious businesswoman as well. You know, there was no there was no making a mistake of who was owning the rights to this. Harpo is her production company. Nothing wrong with that. Harpo, nice little trivial fact for you is Oprah backwards or forwards. And it's been a long night. And, you know, she is in control now of it all. Oh, yes, yes. I've been to her headquarters.

I mean, I was invited, I won't go into details, but to talk to the network. And the people that work with her have a similar ethos. It's actually very female led it's a very female when i say that i'm not saying everybody in charge is female but even the headquarters where you go it's a very female vibe and it's very female uh led um and it's it its approach to programming and everything is probably more equated with females. So I actually really like the fact that she's such a powerful businesswoman. Yes. And have you met her ever? No, I haven't. I haven't. I've met her very senior staff.

I mean, it's also, I was noticing people talking about, it's a bit of a throwback to getting that exclusive, you know, where the days of Diane Sawyer, Oprah Winfrey, all these people, you know, making sure they get the exclusive. Gayle King apparently had been in talks with the couple, you know, all of those sorts of details about behind the scenes. They made a thing right at the beginning of the interview, didn't they? You're not being paid for this and this isn't your home. This is a home we've borrowed.

So you've got a bit of that behind the scenes. The reason I also asked if you thought she'd done a good job, and lots of people also saying the same, you know, she's reminding people about that empathetic style, how you get the most from people. There is a very big duty when you interview people that it's part of the record. It's what becomes known about a certain issue.

And she did it, you know, people really praised her, I remember as well, about her Lance Armstrong interview. I wondered though, there was a discrepancy in the interview about a very important point. It may have been a misspeak, and I know it's a point you were actually talking about yesterday, a clip of you has gone gone viral talking about racism um actually with the aforementioned pierce morgan you you were talking about please don't try and define it leave that

to us and and a point many people have agreed with but it was she megan markel said to oprah the duchess of sussex she said um a comment was made about uh our child's skin tone and that was about it was it seemed like when she was pregnant. And then when Harry joined the set, he talked about it being right at the beginning of their relationship. And I just wonder, you know, some people wanted perhaps a bit more of a follow-up

on some of those details. Do you think that was a miss by Oprah? It might not have been because I understand, I mean, they showed more here in the states on cbs this morning with gail king they showed yet more footage because there was also if you remember criticism that um that um they hadn't been asked about thomas markle and the system what have you well actually they had talked about that and that was shown me the next uh morning apparently there's still more hours

of interview so we oh there's loads and loads and loads so but for editing i know um for instance again you know anything like i did pierce morgan's life stories or anything like that it's three hours of filming and they've got to squish it down to a commercial um hour and let me say i those extraordinary figures of what advertisers were paying it was like literally super expensive to the super bowl exactly so you know it's like can we can we run this to 47 minutes are you kidding and knock out three minutes it's like half a million dollars plus you know. So you don't know how it was edited. So before I sort of criticise her, unless one was to sit there, you know,

and you can never have an interview. You look back at an interview and the flavour is always going to change slightly, you know, in the editing booth. So who knows what happened there you know there was an added bit i think the bit with the chickens and what have you they had to sort of bring it up to date because things had happened since they did the original sit down so there's all there's always that and then there's what the advertisers want i mean you never get trisha just to say people haven't watched it and they did go into a chicken coop. That is actually what happened. Yes, they did.

It's not just Oprah brought a chicken on. No, they saved some chickens from a factory. So they actually did sit a bit in a chicken coop. Yes, and she talked about rescuing and that was a bit of a motif. And Harry, just to bring you back to your own career here, and you have just done your own life stories with Piers Morgan. The thing I wanted to ask you was how much of an impact do you think Oprah had on black women specifically and their role on television and in society?

Did it impact you or was it just happening at the same time? Oh, no, no. It was just happening at the same time with me because when Oprah started, I was actually, again, a news and current affairs journalist in Australia I I made history as the first black um on air anything um there in 1988 and uh I I would never honestly if you'd said to me then I was going to end up as a talk show host I would have you know I was doing news and current affairs. In those days, I was doing health and social welfare. I tended more towards that. That was a woman's area of news and current affairs back then. But no, she she did make a huge impact. And I think I only really she was only really brought into focus for me when I started,

when I was brought over to the UK to do my talk show and people started saying Britain's Black Oprah and I was like, really? You know, but, and I purposely didn't watch her shows in those days because America was so very different to Britain in the late 90s. I mean, we've kind of merged a little bit more thanks to social media and what have you. But let me say she has made a huge impact. Her Oprah magazine, for instance, her Oprah magazine at a time in Britain when it was rare to see a black woman on the cover or even really in the pages of any magazine. And people will jump in and say, oh, but Naomi Campbell was on magazine. Yes, Naomi Campbell was on magazine yes Naomi Campbell was just about it um you know but you could buy Oprah magazine at the airport when we

when we used to travel with my girls and there was a magazine with a woman on a woman on the cover who happened to be black it wasn't about black. It was about hair and skin cream and fashion and everything else. Life, just everything. Life. You weren't there as the black person. Trisha, we've got so many messages coming in off our discussion, lots of views on Oprah.

I'm going to get to some of those in a minute, but can I just, a very brief word, if I can, from you. Do you have a view on what the Queen, Her Majesty, not the Queen of Daytime TV, should do next? What the royal family perhaps need to do at this point? I think the royal family has an absolutely wonderful opportunity if they play their cards right. Wouldn't it be glorious, wouldn't it be absolutely glorious

to say, you know, just to say to someone, and this sounds very American, but the most powerful thing you can say to somebody that you clearly haven't listened to for a long time while they were screaming for help is, I hear you and let's talk and genuinely talk. And that shouldn't be in public. But, you know, if your child or grandchild is, quote unquote, acting up or, you know, instead of looking at it being a case of the family being embarrassed, you know, and I'm talking as a mother. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and say, I hear you're in pain. This is about this whole thing is about pain. Trisha, I feel like we've just swapped roles and I've just gone on to your daytime TV show. Trisha Goddard, I do, I do.

Thank you so much for talking to us. It's lovely to have you. And I know that you're in America now. So, you know, you could circle back to us anytime. Have a nice day. You have a nice day now. Trisha Goddard, thank you so much. I will come to your messages coming in thick and fast.

But how has this interview gone down with the American audience? How does it affect perhaps the view of the royal family stateside? Some people in America cannot get enough of the royal family. And how will it play out for Harry and Meghan's future there? Joining us now, Stephanie Gorilla, senior editor and staff writer at The Griot, which is an American website with news and video content geared towards African Americans. And Stephanie is in New York, I believe. Good morning to you. Good morning to you as well. Thank you so much for having me on. Thank you for coming. And I wonder now it's settling, the interview, and people are taking whatever bit of

it in. There seems to be more and more that we could see. How do you think it's playing out? At the moment, I believe that Americans, most of the Americans are firmly on the side of Meghan and Harry, because I believe for a very long time, there's been this mystique around the British royal family. And I know that for me, for the past few years, I've been saying, you know, there's a harmful narrative around Meghan Markle that's been developing, but you know, nobody was really paying attention. And when Harry and Meghan announced that we're going to do an interview with Oprah and Buckingham Palace came out swinging saying,

well, Meghan is accused of being a bully, her earrings are from Saudi Arabia and it was linked to murder. Americans were like, wait a minute, this seemed like an overreaction to an interview. And so it became a sense of, well, the UK is picking on one of our own. And it became sort of like a patriotic duty to kind of like stand up for Meghan Markle.

And now people have seen like how the sausage is made, like how the operation, the windows have been, the currents have been pulled open. Everybody's saying, I'm shocked because, you know, she's saying that, you know, she wasn't protected. She was suicidal. She was told not to get any help. She made the, she and Eric said that, you know, somebody in the royal family said that we needed to find out what Archie's skin color was going to be. And right now we're having a reckoning on race. And that really touches a lot of people deeply. And there's another issue as well as a black woman. And I'm sure Ms. Gooder could also relate to this as well. The weaponization of Kate Middleton's tears. For the past two years, we have heard that Meghan made Kate cry. And, you know, Meghan was turned into a monster. And

Meghan said herself, this was the turning point. And then she said, that's not even what happened. It was the fact that Kate made me cry. But for two years, people were led to believe that Meghan was a monster. And Buckingham Palace did absolutely nothing to correct the record. But yet they've spoken out about other issues. Just to say, you know, first of all, we are awaiting a response from the palace, which is actually what a lot of people are getting in touch with us about. You say we've seen how the sausage is made. I like that description. But of course, we've also, again, on these particular issues, seen one side of the story.

And Meghan and Harry would say they haven't been able to tell their side of the story. I'll ask you the same question I asked Tricia in light of that response that you've just painted a view of. Because, of course, Thomas Markle has been speaking this morning again about what he has to say on this. And he himself saying, I don't necessarily think this was a racist comment. He saying that perhaps this was a clumsy comment. Putting that to one side for a moment. What do you think the royal family could do or should do in a way that you've just described it, which is it's almost become a patriotic thing here about Meghan being American because Joe Biden, we should say, has spoken out through his press person, you know, giving support here. I believe Ms. Garter said it best, just to say that I hear you. Like, you don't even have to say anything else. You know, I hear you.

You know, we both made mistakes on both. I feel like somebody has to be the adult. I understand that it's a firm and it's a monarchy, but it's also a family. That's what they say. And the thing is that what I'm hearing is that the firm comes before family. And I believe it's sort of like what happened with Princess Diana all over again. You're so dedicated to protocol that you're figuring that these are actual human beings. If I'm saying that I am in pain and you may believe that, you know, Meghan is acting or whatever, but Harry is a born, a blood-born prince. Do you really believe in your heart of hearts that Harry wants to torch his,

his grandmother's legacy, the grandmother that he loves? Do you really believe that? I don't think anybody truly believes that. We will see. We will broadcast it. Or any of my colleagues will hear on the BBC when we get such a statement or any sort of response. Stephanie Gorillaz, thank you for making time to talk to us. Thank you so much. Starve writer at The Griot. A lot of different messages coming in. One here is to say that the palace on behalf of the Queen should inform the world of factual information regarding Meghan and Harry's statements.

What is the protocol? What are the rules about the Queen's great-grandchildren? Is it the norm? What's happening here? Some facts. That's the request here. Someone else says, Emma, enough of giving airtime to this Sussex nonsense. There should be a public inquiry, says Helen, into what all of this. A list of the allegations can be

investigated. Another one here, the only way to treat this self-absorbed pair is not to dignify their claims with a reply. There are many inconsistencies in their interview and we have to remember she is an accomplished actress. Many messages coming in as well saying how important it was to see it in full last night and also messages around Oprah. I'll come back to those if I can shortly but keep them coming in on 84844. Now, for over 20 years, Maria Carhill has stood by her claims that she was raped by a member of the IRA when she was 16 and was re-traumatised when the issue was handled by an IRA kangaroo court.

But a few days ago, the Guardian newspaper issued an apology to Maria regarding a controversial article published in 2014. The journalist, Roy Greenslade, who used to write for the Guardian and later became a lecturer in journalism and ethics. Two weeks ago, Roy Greenslade disclosed that he was a supporter of the IRA and a member of Sinn Féin, a revelation that caused major ripples, even prompting comment from the Prime Minister's spokesperson. In that article from 2014, Roy Greenslade criticised the BBC documentary which revealed Maria's story

for failing to include the fact that she belonged to an anti-Chinfane political party at one time. Maria said his article and the recent disclosure of his political affiliations

which were hidden at the time undermine what she's been through as a survivor of rape continuing to add insult to injury. Maria Carhill

joins me now from Northern Ireland. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. You say this all started 20 years ago, and I just wondered if we could start with you, with whatever you feel you can share, telling us what happened to you as a 16-year-old that led to you waiving your right to be anonymous. Yeah. So whenever I was 16, I was abused by a man who was a member of the ira and he happened

to be living with my father's sister at the time shortly before the abuse happened he and another individual asked me excuse me would i move guns for the ira i refused and i think that is an important detail because i think it may be difficult for people to just understand the environment that I was living in at the time when the abuse started happening Emma um I was that frightened actually when it started that I um I was asleep when the man started touching me originally and I pretended to be asleep because of the implied threat um of violence that I had found out from him earlier and that continued to be the pattern of the abuse. I disclosed more so because I needed a lesson in the ear more than anything else and also I was finding it very very difficult to live, I couldn't cope and I disclosed to three

separate women at different occasions for comfort more than anything else. One of those individuals later told the IRA and a year later, whenever I was 18 then, the IRA came to me and instructed me to meet them later that night. And what followed then, just to cut a long story short, was a very protracted interrogation. They referred to it as an investigation to repeatedly question me about details of my abuse so there were two investigations the first one culminated in

bringing me into a room to face my rapist and that was very traumatic for me at the time he denied it and then there was a gap for a number of months. And then two other young children disclosed that they had also been abused. So that really is a very, very condensed version of what happened to me. Thank you for being able to do that and doing that. Because I think it's important as part of when we talk about what's just happened very recently for people to know your story and where you were coming from in this. The man accused, as you say, he's always denied it.

He was acquitted. In fact, the court case against the accused fell through, as well as the trial of four others accused of organising IRA meetings. It fell through because you pulled out, but eventually an investigation found you were not to blame for anything. I suppose, is there something that you want to say about why you pulled out of legal proceedings? Well, yeah, I mean, it took a long time for me to be able to go to the police in the first instance. Again, there is a political history in Northern Ireland where people were

unable to go. I had the added complication in that I was instructed by the IRA not to go. And also my family were told originally when my parents found out they were also told they couldn't tell anybody else so it was a just a very very traumatic time when I was 29 I gave an interview to a Sunday newspaper which is no longer in print the Sunday Tribune and I also made a police complaint and then there was a four-year trial and there were quite a number of failings in that prosecution from start to finish Sir Keir Starmer in 2015 did an independent investigation into it which led to a public apology from the then DPP. So there were a number of reasons. Witnesses have pulled out over the years. The delay in the case was just very very difficult to deal with and there were also a number of issues in relation

to failure to question potential suspects in the case and, you know, bad character information being conceded by the prosecution. So it's very, very complicated to try and explain it in a short space of time. But I don't think that anybody in my position would have been expected to stay the course after four years. What is important is that I didn't actually withdraw my allegations. I withdrew support for the prosecution and that was a very different thing. And that is an important distinction to make. This is all back up in discussion because Roy Greenslade has revealed his political affiliations.

And for people who haven't followed this, this is after that article that we described at the beginning of my introduction. In what, what did he say and how did that make you feel? Well, I can only give you my opinion on it, but it seems to be the prevailing opinion of most of the rest of the people who have read it. He wrote a piece which I refer to as a hatchet job

and in that piece he questioned the BBC programme. He said that critics... This was the programme about what had happened. Yes, so I waved anonymity on a BBC spotlight programme in Northern Ireland with reporter Jennifer O'Leary and that programme, by the way,

went on to win two Royal Television Society Awards and Anamnesty Awards. So that would point to not only the credibility of me, but also the credibility of the programme makers who were extremely ethical in what they did. Roy Greenslade criticised that programme. And in the article, he said the critics didn't point to countervailing evidence. So he essentially questioned my motivation in going public and said that it was because I was politically opposed to Sinn Féin. And I think that was a very damaging article for Roy Greenslade to write, particularly now in light of his revelation to the public that he has been a long term IRA supporter himself. Yes, that his own political affiliations were not known when bringing up your political affiliations. The irony there

that some have noted. Roy Greenslade called us here at Woman's Hour half an hour before the programme started this morning and said the following. I regard what I wrote about the BBC programme in 2014 as valid, but I regret not declaring my political allegiance at that time, i.e. in 2014, and I apologise to Ms Carhill for that. What's your response? I think it's a pretty despicable response, Emma, and I can only tell you my feeling on it. This has been an extremely traumatic week,

but it has also been a traumatic number of years, obviously because of my experience. No one, I think, goes public in a very forthright manner to discuss really really intimate details of something traumatic that happened to them you know for the crack basically and Roy's editor former editor Alan Rusbridger actually emailed me at the weekend and I can quote from part of that email Emma he's saying about that piece it spectacularly fails on transparency grounds but is also troubling in other respects. So that's quite clear. He's also saying, had he known about Roy's Greenslade's affiliation at the time, he would not have run it.

That's an admission, I think, that the Guardian messed up in printing this particular piece. I think it was a low blow from Roy Greenslade. And the fact that the programme did go on to win those awards would kind of point to his credibility rather than theirs. But also equally, I received public apologies in relation to my case from the Chief Constable of Northern Ireland, the former one, the former head of the Public Prosecution Service. And I also received a public apology from Sinn Féin in 2018 from Mary Lynn MacDonald. So, you know, with the benefit of hindsight, I think people can now look back at where Roy Green's aid was coming from and I don't think you get much lower than that.

I really don't. I don't think that when an abuse victim comes forward that they should be treated in that manner. I just don't think it's acceptable. If he's listening to the programme, what would you like to say to him? I don't really have anything Emma that I would like to say to him other than what I'm already on record as saying I would like to get to a point in my life where Roy Greenslade is really not taking up space in my head I have enough space in my head I have a 10 year old daughter who's a lovely happy wee child and I have worked really really hard to try and keep myself on an even keel in order to be able to not only

look after her but also to look after myself too I didn't expect when I was 16 and the abuse was happening to me to be sitting 24 years later talking about it I was 18 when the IRA investigation happened I was 29 when I made a police complaint, 33 when I went public, and now I'm 39 and I'm still being traumatised by other individuals. Because, I mean, that's why I asked the question. You know, it's about that traumatisation that it, you know, we did invite the Guardian on, I should say, but they declined.

They talked about an extensive private apology that they've sent to you. But I recognise it's a real choice for you to have come on to the programme this morning. And can I tell you or explain to you why I've done it? Because I think that a lot of the commentary around this is dangerous. So when you attack the credibility of a rape victim, it actually has a knock on effect on other people who may be watching or listening. So if there's one thing that I can say to people, if you have been abused and if you have been hurt, please come forward and report it. Report it to the police or please get help from a rape crisis centre,

from people who are trained. And don't let anybody attack your credibility whenever you're then trying to get help or indeed trying to expose what happened to you. And I hope that by using my voice in all of this, that it will help someone at the other end of your radio who is listening to it who has been in a similar situation to me and I don't I think I've been very hurt by Roy Greenslade I've been equally hurt by the Guardian I think they should never have run that piece in the first place I think it was dangerous

and I also think it was malicious and I don't think it's acceptable and I am not going to allow Roy Greenslade to try and attack my credibility all over again by standing over that. I think the general public will know what a despicable thing that is to do, I really do. Maria Cahill,

thank you very much for joining us. As I say, we did invite the Guardian on, we had that statement from Roy Greenslade. And as to Maria's point there about if you've been affected by any of these issues, BBC Action Line, you can Google that and find a list of support services there if you are affected by any of the things that have been discussed. Maria, thank you. Now, children all across the UK are returning to school this week, but an increasing number of parents are choosing to educate their children at home. It's been a growing trend over recent years, but the latest statistics showed some regions have seen a huge increase in numbers. And yet it's unregulated.

There's no government database monitoring the exact numbers of children being educated in this way. To shed some light, I'm joined by Gail Tolley from the Association of Directors of Children's Services Departments and English Councils, and also by Hannah Titley, who runs the Homeschooling Association, one of many bodies which advise parents on how to educate children full-time away from school. Hannah, if I start with you, just to be clear here, we're not talking about homeschooling in the way we've been doing, or people have been doing, I should say, across the UK during the pandemic, are we? No, no, that's absolutely right.

So over the last five years, we've seen that homeschooling has become increasingly popular. It's estimated that there are around currently 75,000 children being homeschooled in the UK, up from 37,000 in 2015. And COVID certainly seems to have accelerated that trend. And what does it look like for most people? You know, I nearly had a slip there saying, you know, to educate the women educating children full time away. Do we know if it's mainly women who do it? So I think traditionally, when people are thinking about homeschooling, they see it as a parent led activity. So parents teaching their children. However, now there are so many different

ways to homeschool than there have been before, which has made it more accessible to families. So lots of families consider online schools like Interhigh, which are becoming increasingly popular. Some children choose to learn in small groups called micro schools and others have one-to-one tutors. So there's no rules on what a home school schedule should look like and parents can take their own approach. Do you think it should be better regulated though? We've got a statement here from Baroness Burrage, the Minister for Schools Systems. She was unavailable to take part in our discussion today but this statement is from the Department for Education which say that for the vast majority of children particularly the most vulnerable school is the best place for their education.

Home education is never a decision that should be entered into lightly. And now more than ever, it's absolutely vital that any decision to home educate is made with the child's best interests at the forefront of everyone's minds. Any parents who are considering home education on the grounds of safety concerns should make every effort to engage with their school and think very carefully about what's best for their children's education. The protective measures in place make schools as safe as possible for children and staff. Do you think it should be better regulated? Do you support a database? So we certainly support a national register of homeschool students. And I think it's really important that safeguarding is a top priority.

With regards to the amount of intervention, one of the benefits of homeschooling is that there isn't a national curriculum. So there are children who need to learn at their own pace, or they have extracurricular interests where they need a flexible schedule. I think it's important that we understand that balance. It's very important that safeguarding is put at the top of that list, but then also that parents are given the autonomy to teach in a way that suits their child best. And does it result in good results, as it were? I know it's all different and it's quite a surprise to some that they wouldn't know necessarily that there's no national curriculum. Yeah, so children need to achieve a satisfactory level of English and maths. Lots of parents do follow the national curriculum to a

certain extent, or they teach parts of it. But lots of parents that have recently joined the homeschooling population, they are going beyond the national curriculum. So they have chosen to homeschool because their child would like to learn coding, current affairs, entrepreneurship and develop skills that are not necessarily being taught at school. No exams, is that right? So lots of children, there isn't a requirement to take exams. However, lots of children do sit exams, their GCSEs and A-levels as private candidates at exam centres, which keep higher education options available to them.

The point is you don't have to do that, but many do. Let's bring in Gail at this point. What do you put the increase in families choosing to do this down to, Gail? Good morning. Thank you. As Hannah said, there has been a steady increase, about 20% a year, since the Association of Directors of Children's Services started collecting and reporting this information. But last September we saw, last October when we checked on Census Day, we saw an increase of 38%.

And a number of local authorities, as reported, saw comparative figures from last September to the September before with increases well over 100%. So the link to the pandemic and parental anxieties around that is part of that explanation, we believe. And of course, we are looking very carefully this week, next week, the coming weeks as to whether there might be an increase again, because we also think that actually some parents did confuse what I might describe as homeschooling, that is delivering the school's curriculum at home with elective home education, which is the legal position. Parents have to either ensure that their child attends school or elect to home educate. still have access to the online learning and curriculum provided by schools and in terms of perhaps some of their own anxieties have opted to say they will home educate but some are certainly now realising that that does not bring with it access to ongoing support from schools online and so we do know that there have been some returns to school from a number of those families and children who elected to home educate in the early autumn but nonetheless there's an increase yes and and it'll be interesting as you say to see to see those differences and if it if it sustains with

some of those families but you you are also i understand in support of a national database but some parents are not some carers do not want that. Why don't they want it? I think there are a number of families and through organisations that have been positively home educating and don't see the need for a mandatory register. As directors of children's services, where we have a responsibility for oversight of well-being and safeguarding as Hannah has alluded to as well the importance of us knowing because there's no requirement at all if a family for example might elect to home educate tell the school if their child perhaps is in year five that they're going to home educate but if that family then moves local authority there is no requirement on that family to notify either the local area from which they're moving or the one to which they're joining. So, and if that family

circumstances change such that the circumstances either where the child is learning in the conditions at home or the safeguarding elements of their lives change, no one has sight or support of that child. So as directors of children's services, we feel that a mandatory register is really important. If I may, I could also support something that you've alluded to and that Hannah has suggested. We do not then want to interfere in curricula or the choices about learning, but having sight of the fact that there is effective learning provision, a safe learning environment, and of the fact that there is learning effective learning provision a safe learning environment and that the child's needs are prioritized as being paramount is where we think that mandatory a mandatory register would be essential. Gail Tolley thank you we're gonna

have to leave it there Association of Directors of Children's Services Departments in English Councils that's where Gail comes from and Hannahley, who runs the Homeschooling Association. Of course, if you have experience of that, do get in touch. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, Greg Jenner here. Series three of Radio 4's top comedy history podcast,

You're Dead to Me, is now in full swing. That's when you find yourself in the pocket of big Asclepius. We like to learn and laugh about the past by pairing up a top historian with a top comedian. That is hangry at a new level, isn't it? So far in this series, we've met the Irish pirate queen, Gráinne Ó Máli, explored the strange world of ancient Greek and Roman medicine, and discovered the dramatic family life of the Borgias. All I know about the Borgias is from Assassin's Creed 2.

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