Woman's Hour - Ella Jarmulska, Dr Caitlin Dean, Nicola Cutcher, Professor Marian Knight, Rose Gallagher, Threads, Marion Lees McPherson

Episode Date: March 29, 2022

Emma Barnett speaks to Ella Jarmulska a Polish entrepreneur who wants to provide safer car rides to families fleeing the war in Ukraine. Displaced and disoriented, often with no idea where to go next, refugees are forced to put their trust in strangers. Trafficking rings are notoriously active in Ukraine and neighbouring countries in peace time. The fog of war is perfect cover to increase business.Today sees the launch of a new campaign which calls for health professionals, the media, retailers and the public to ditch the term ‘morning sickness’ and refer to ‘pregnancy sickness’ instead. We talk to Dr Caitlin Dean, a nurse specialist in this area and to the co-founder, of the ‘Not Morning Sickness’ campaign Nicola Cutcher.As the end of free testing draws near, we talk to Rose Gallagher from the Royal College of Nurses about who will pay for Covid tests for staff in the NHS. We’ll also consider the latest Government statistics which show just over half of pregnant women in England have had at least one covid jab with Professor Marian Knight the head of national surveillance of Covid hospitalisation in pregnancy. In our series Threads we've been talking to listeners about the clothes they've hung on to. They'll never end up in the charity shop bag, they hold powerful emotions. Dorothy sent us a photo of a beautiful dress she wore age 14 at a barn dance in Hereford - happy memories.And Marion Lees McPherson from the Society of Women Organists tells us how they're taking on the inequality of the ecclesiastical organ scene with men represent 90 per cent of permanent directors of music and organists in English and Welsh cathedrals. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineer: John Boland

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. One of my guests today told her husband she was just going out for a quick bit of shopping but ended up driving 250 miles away to the Polish border and returning with a car full of women and children refugees. Ella Jarmulska, a Polish entrepreneur, now runs a very new programme indeed called Women Take the Wheel initiative in Poland where she lives and of course where she's now doing

these drives in a bid to encourage more women, not just men, to be at the Polish-Ukrainian border to help those fleeing to safety. It's now been five weeks since Russia invaded Ukraine, and Ella describes what she did as a spontaneous action. What have you been able to do in response to the reality Ukrainians are now facing, if anything? Have you talked about it and not been sure what to do or if there is anything to do? Or perhaps you found yourself wanting to do things, but you're not in a position to do anything at the moment. Of course, if you are one of the 150,000 members of the public who have been able to offer accommodation to refugees in this country,

a story in today's Times makes for dispiriting reading, to say the least. Citing Home Office sources, the paper reports fewer than one in ten applications to accommodate ukrainian refugees in british homes have been approved fewer than one in ten if you have been moved to help those in ukraine and those fleeing what have you done please for money not things are also now commonplace so have you donated or do you have more ambitious plans what are the discussions going on in your home with your friendship groups at the moment? You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or email me through the Woman's Hour website. We'll be hearing from Ella shortly. Also on today's programme, female organists unite, all to be revealed. And the latest in our series, Threads, about a piece of clothing or an outfit you could never throw away. Today's story comes from Dorothy and involves gin and a first kiss. But first, Covid. And I'm not talking about those first 20 fines for breaches of lockdown rules as part of that police inquiry into Downing Street parties. I'm talking about the number of people testing positive across the country. Over the weekend, it was reported that COVID cases had climbed by a million in a week. That means an

estimated one in every 16 people infected, according to the Office for National Statistics. Have you had COVID recently? Perhaps you're lying in bed listening to this right now. Of course, I wish you very well if you are. This Friday, free lateral flow testing comes to an end in England, and we're told we've got to learn to live with it. But are we at that point yet? And how are some women being affected? Let me talk first to the broadcaster and comedian Aisha Hazarika. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I believe you'd been going out, you'd been getting back on the social scene, and then what happened? Well, there I was living my best life.

I was listening to the government. Oh, I'm so sorry. Just forgive us one moment. We've just got another one of our speakers coming through to us, I believe actually from Poland. So I don't want you to be interrupted. But just while we make sure we can mute that line. Carry on, Aisha.

Well, yes. I mean, the government said, look, this is over. Get back out there. So I was doing my civic duty by being a sort of aging girl on the party scene, attending every event going. And actually, one of the most fun evenings I had was catching up with political friends and journalists in the strangers bar at the House of Commons. And then a couple of days later, I got the sort of, oh, my nose is slightly runny and my throat is scratchy. So I got COVID. And I had just thought it was going to be like a mild cold at this point. I remember two years ago, we were all very frightened about getting COVID. This was not like a mild cold. As soon as I tested positive, about 12 hours later, I was absolutely floored by this. I mean, I have quite a strong constitution. I very rarely take a day off work, but I was absolutely wiped out. And my symptoms were, you know, they were quite intense.

I was really struggling to breathe. My lungs and my chest felt very tight and painful. There were these rivers of biohazardous snot, this stabbing headache. And I had a cough. I'm not meaning to laugh, but that is a very good description. Also, I had such a hacking cough. I think my neighbours thought I just acquired a large dog. And it was absolutely horrific.

And I was, I mean, it's taken me, I've definitely been, it's affected me for about two weeks. But I was properly pinned to the bed bed could not move for a good eight nine days so my message is I'm not saying we have to rush back to the way we were living but the idea that this thing is over is absolutely for the birds we know cases are going up and workplaces are starting to be affected by even you know my own radio station we've had quite a small radio station times radio we've had a lot of people off with COVID. We know the NHS is starting to be affected, schools as well. So for me, I think the government's right to say self-responsibility,

but why take away free testing? That's the thing to me which sounds crazy. I mean, ever the political operator, you used to work for the Labour Party, I should point out at this point, just to be full disclosure, because when you say, I'm hanging out with all my friends, and then you're in the strangers bar at the House of Commons, some of our listeners may be thinking, okay, she's got a very particular group of friends.

And of course, what to do with regards to the government, it is an important question about leadership, of course, as well, which I know you're very keenly going to watch. But I suppose why I wanted to hear from you, Aisha, is that, you know, for people who have been vaccinated, especially as well, they may be thinking that their symptoms and their response wouldn't be that bad. And it does sound like it shocked you. Yeah, I was really shocked because particularly over Christmas, there was a lot of this Omicron

going around, but lots of people didn't have very bad symptoms. And so I think we have all been led to believe the narrative. It's just like a mild cold. It's not that serious. But it really did wipe me out. And I'm not the only one. I mean, of course, this is anecdotal evidence. But most people I know that have it, and I know a lot of people that have got it. I mean, I was meant to be at an away day today. There's a lot of people that have got it. I'm actually not feeling great myself again. People have been floored by it. I mean, we're talking about people who have been wiped out for eight, nine, 10 days. And it's not that they've just got a bit of a headache. They're absolutely floored by it. And I think it's really tough, particularly if you've got caring

responsibilities, if you're trying to look after the children as well. So this it is it is still pretty vicious, this this virus. And I find that out myself. I mean, I was really surprised. I was really surprised. And I was also going to say, does that mean now that you will do anything different in your own life? Because that's where we are with this, isn't it? Trying to make decisions for yourself. I mean, a lot of my work I mean all joking aside I do love a party not denying that but a lot of my work is you know I host conferences I'm an after dinner speaker you know my a lot of my job is going to events so I will still do that I'm definitely a bit more careful about wearing a mask on the tube I'm very conscious about that

so mask perhaps back on on public transport and hugging people when you're saying hello, friends. It's a bit awkward at the moment, isn't it? You sort of, I keep saying something rather unfortunate as people go towards me. I say, oh, I'm clean, as if I'm dirty. I don't know what I'm saying, but it's my new phrase. I'm a clean skin. I've tested recently. Yeah, I mean, but that's why the testing thing is positive. I mean, I am being a bit nervous about, you know, going around and sort of hugging everybody. I think that's where this whole thing came from in the first place.

So, I mean, look, I'm not saying, like, let's all go back inside and, you know, go into full goblin mode. I'm not saying that. But sadly, from my experience, this thing is nasty and you do still have to try and be careful. I hope you're feeling a lot better soon or getting back to yourself and we'll see you out on that party scene. Aisha Hazarika, thank you very much. And we'll hug the next time, perhaps.

Just keep ourselves a little bit distant, but still able to go out. Well, adding to that rising number of cases and how people are feeling with this. As I mentioned, free lateral flow testing is coming to an end on Friday in England. If you work in a social care setting, you can still get them for free. But what if you're a nurse or a healthcare assistant in hospital? Well, women, because the majority of such staff are female, have to pay for them themselves. Let's talk now to Rose Gallagher, who leads on infection prevention and control for the Royal College of Nursing. Good morning, Rose. Morning. Thank you for joining us today. It's Friday in England that these tests are coming to an end

in terms of being paid for. Are you still waiting to be told who's going to pay for lateral flow tests for hospital staff? We are actually amazingly two days away from the 1st of April, still waiting for an announcement to find out what's happening about testing. And more importantly for our members, which make up most of the workforce in health and social care, who's going to pay for it? You still haven't been told? No, we're told that there may be an announcement today. So we're really waiting now for clarity on what that's going to say. Is that a shock to you that you haven't been told?

In an ideal world, I would have liked to have had more notice. Our members and particularly our chief nurses for several weeks now have been asking for clarity so that they can think about what this means for their nursing workforce where they are whether that's hospital based or community we mustn't forget the huge number of community nurses that are out there providing services as well and additionally of course care homes. So still don't know who's going to be paying for them. If it's not the government, what is the plan? I don't know what plan B is, but what we would like to see is actually the government paying for this. We're very clear that the NHS can't make more cuts to pay for testing, which is absolutely essential to prevent the spread of infections wherever we provide care. So that's what you want to happen, but there isn't a plan B, because, of course, I'm just aware of the fact from, again,

from some of our listeners that we're hearing from, that it's quite hard to get hold of tests at the moment. And, of course, the expense as well. It can be, yes. So we do know, I know from talking to people, that they're having trouble currently getting the test. So at the moment, staff working in the NHS are asked to test twice a week, every three or four days. So that helps us to pick up if somebody has coronavirus and perhaps doesn't have symptoms. And that's a core part of us protecting our patients. If staff have to pay five or six pounds per test, that's about 50 pounds a week. And of

course, if that's a husband and wife that are both nurses, that's 100 pounds a month to effectively pay for them to do their job. So you're expecting this announcement within hours, because that's all that's left at the moment. And there is no plan B for regards to if it isn't the government that's all that's left at the moment and there is no plan b uh for for regards to if it isn't the government that's going to to cover this so i suppose what what the question remains is where will people if they are going to have to pay for it well if these workers are going to have to pay for it will they actually do it because that's the other issue here you know if you can't get hold of them or it is you know it's sizable expense coming out of your pay packet that's the concern then about keeping people safe as you're caring for them as well as obviously working can't get hold of them or it is a sizable expense coming out of your pay packet, that's the concern

then about keeping people safe as you're caring for them, as well as obviously working. Yeah, so at the moment, if healthcare workers have to be tested for other infections, such as MRSA or potentially even norovirus if they have symptoms, we don't expect them to pay for those tests. So I don't see why it should be any different for coronavirus, excuse me, considering we're still in the middle of a pandemic and we don't know which way it's going to go. So I would be really hoping that the government are going to step in and pay for this. We know some of our members have already told us they won't pay for it, they can't pay for it. There is huge hardship out there and nurses aren't exempt to that.

And talk to me about masks. Are you concerned about the number of people wearing them? I'm talking about patients, I suppose. Or are you concerned also about staff members? We're waiting for the infection control guidance to be updated and published soon and hopefully that will come alongside the guidance on testing because the two are very closely related. Wearing masks is one way that we can slow down the transmission of coronavirus. It's a really, really infectious virus. People don't appreciate how easily it is spread from person to person. And it's all about through the air. So masks are the ideal way to protect yourself and others from infection. So public transport, enclosed indoor spaces, and that of course means hospitals and care homes.

And you were worried about the start of the hay fever season as well. Is that right? Well, I'm not worried about it. but what concerns me is that people may mistake symptoms of hay fever for coronavirus right or vice versa so corona sorry hay fever causes people to be fatigued they get a runny nose they may sneeze or cough so actually maintaining that testing particularly for health and care staff, means that we'll be able to differentiate the difference between the two and perhaps manage our staff absences where staff are being cautious, as you would expect them to be, given the symptoms that they're told that COVID can produce. Rose Gallagher, thank you. Just finally, very struck by you saying we're in the middle of a pandemic do you feel like we are in the general public so this is a global pandemic so despite what the government are saying about moving on living with covid you could be forgiven for thinking it's all over it's not it absolutely isn't and as the world starts to move again, then so will coronavirus. So some people have abandoned all measures to reduce it. But we need to keep ourselves safe.

We need to keep wearing masks and be mindful of COVID. And testing, you would say as well, of course, if you if you can get your hands on them. Testing if you have symptoms, certainly for the general public and common sense. If you're not well, don't mix with other people. If you know you've been around people where large numbers have got COVID, just be careful. I'm just thinking back to those days when people would struggle into the office, you know, with terrible colds and all of that. It's going to be in many ways, some of the behavioural shifts will be will be permanent for at least for the time being, won't they? I hope so. It should become socially unacceptable to be on public transport or in the office if you're unwell.

Although, of course, going back to your point about the cost of living, some people would say that they don't have a choice in that particular scenario, depending on their circumstances. It's a very difficult balance. Thank you very much for talking to us. The latest figures from the UK Health Security Agency say that just over half of pregnant women in England, 53.7% to be accurate, have had at least one COVID vaccine. Although that figure is rising, it's still lower compared to the general population of the same age group. And the figure for vaccine take up amongst black women and women living in deprived areas in England who are pregnant are much worse. Professor Marion Knight from Oxford University and head of national surveillance of COVID hospitalisation in pregnancy, as well as a professor of maternal and child population health.

Good morning. Good morning. From what you're seeing, what is the situation with pregnant women coming into hospitals with COVID? How many in and what's their prognosis like? So we know that around 200 women, pregnant women admitted to hospital every week at the moment in the UK are testing positive for COVID. Of those women, about a third have symptoms. And we know that among the third that have symptoms, there are still sadly some women who are requiring, who are getting severe COVID and needing some intensive care. The really good news is that when we looked at the data specifically relating to the Omicron variant and the period when that's been circulating,

is that if you've had three doses of vaccine, the protection against severe illness seems very strong. So we didn't identify any women with severe illness who had had three doses of vaccine. So the message around vaccination for pregnant women is still really important. We know globally hundreds of thousands of women have now had the vaccine and we have no safety concerns. And it's a really important message we still need to continue to reinforce with pregnant women. How concerned are you about the figures amongst black women and women living in deprived areas in England who are pregnant? It is really important.

We know that women from black and Asian ethnic minority groups are at greater risk of admission to hospital with COVID in pregnancy and for having severe pregnancy. So actually working with women in those communities, making it easy for women to get the vaccine. So, for example, providing it at antenatal clinics, which many hospitals are now doing, are particularly important, again, to keep on doing. We know that infection rates are high and carrying on offering vaccine at every opportunity is continually important. And getting that message out that the advice is it is safe based on evidence and what we're seeing, not just in our country, but around the world. And what's really important is that COVID itself is not safe. The biggest impact is actually having

a preterm birth. So about one in five women who are admitted to hospital with symptomatic COVID will have a baby born preterm. And we know that being born prematurely, even by a few weeks, can lead to difficulties at school over the longer term, for example. So actually, you know, preventing COVID by the vaccine is far more important. The benefits are so high. And we know, as I said, as you mentioned, that hundreds of thousands of women have had the vaccine very safely. Professor Marion Knight, thank you very much for putting us in the picture on that perspective something that we've of course stayed very close to here on the program during the pandemic and also across the uk with what's going on especially with women and those working in the health sector in fact a message here from barbara on that front saying i find it unbelievable that nhs staff think the government should pay for their tests these are the same staff who object to having vaccinations imposed upon them. The NHS

is deluded in its thought that they are heroes or angels. They are paid a good salary with excellent working terms and conditions. They need to get on with the job they are paid for. Well, I'm sure there'll be many responses to what you have to say there, Barbara, with regards to that. An email from Alison that says, I'm lying in bed listening to your programme having got COVID for the second time and I'm triple jabbed. For me, it's like a bad cold or flu. I thought it was OK to work from home yesterday. And yesterday, excuse me, and today I'm exhausted and still in bed.

Confusion reigns, says Grace. Being careful is not wearing a mask. It's managing to get everyone else to wear one. Impossible. I march around the bus opening windows. I can't do that if I'm on the tube. Talking about travelling in London there. Could long COVID

please be mentioned when you're discussing the pandemic? The year just now described, sorry, the guest just now described her dramatic

symptoms for nine days. Many doctors and nurses are still having the same symptoms up to two years on and many others of course as well. And another message

here from Penny says, you want us all locked up again Woman's Hour. Isn't the evidence of our national debt, the damage to our children and our emotional and mental welfare enough for you? OK, you get COVID just like you get flu. Live with it, reads that message from Penny. No, as a programme, we're definitely not saying that. We're just talking about the figures. And we're also trying to flip people's experiences and, of course,

some of the issues around testing, which is a big part of the strategy to live with COVID. But of course, some concern there about potentially going back to restrictions. And another message here, I hope you'll be able to mention that there are some people with severe clinical vulnerabilities,

too afraid to venture out because COVID is all around and people are dropping like flies thanks to Freedom Day and the removal of safeguards. Thank you indeed mentioned and thank you for your message. Many messages also coming in about what you have managed to do if you have managed to do anything for those in Ukraine because it is now five weeks since Russia invaded Ukraine.

More than three million people have fled the country, most of whom are women and children. And charities working on the borders are worried that those people fleeing, those women and children, could be targeted by illegal sex traffickers. One of those charities is La Strada International, an anti-trafficking organisation.

Currently, its focus is supporting and protecting desperate refugees crossing the border from sex traffickers, mainly lone women and teenagers. I'm now joined by Lestrade Poland's co-founder and vice president, Joanna Garnier. Joanna, thank you for coming on the programme. Do you know that traffickers are working in the area? Is that what you're seeing? I know they could work on the border and sometimes we receive information and the kind of rumors. The traffickers are active on the border, but it's important. These informations are not confirmed.

So I can't say and I can't confirm that women from the border are lured to prostitution, forced to prostitution. We work on our hotline, which is run 24 hours. We work with various kinds of information. So we receive a lot of reports about suspicious people, suspicious offers and the situation who can be potentially dangerous. So we try to advise, we try to rather encourage women to be safe. And so, safety behaviours, and taking responsibility on... Oh, maybe taking responsibility is not a good word in this situation, but we encourage to follow our safety rules.

Yes, so you've got some rules. It's not good to show now. I'm just mindful you're holding up a piece of paper and we're on the radio. In order to stress your point, you're saying that you don't want to make women and children more frightened than they need to be and that there are some key safety rules

to be followed. And I suppose just imagining that, if you are standing on the border and you don't know who is safe to get a lift with, could you just tell us perhaps one of those rules or two of those rules that you advise women and children in this situation? In fact, in a situation of war and crossing the border,

nobody is safe first. But if people follow our safety rules, for example, what I can say, ask on what conditions the assistance is offered, for example. Keep in small groups. Don't onboard private cars individually because as you know polish people opened their hearts and show how good how kind and how great they are so they started to offer accommodation they started to offer transport and all kinds of services for women and children but as you know very good in this situation people show their goodness their big

hearts but some of them show their i don't know how to say, small hearts. Some people try to gain something from desperate women. So we expect and we think in some time when people start to work, we can expect situations of forced labour, of various kinds of frauds and cheating. Yes, and that's why you want to, of course, raise awareness of that and also of those safety rules. Joanna Garnier, thank you very much indeed. Let me welcome to the programme Ella Jarmulska, who I told you about right at the start of today's show,

a Polish entrepreneur who set up something called Women Take the Wheel initiative to provide safer car rides to these families and to these individuals. She's driving again to the border today. It will take her around five hours, I'm told, but you have stopped, Ella, kindly to talk en route to us. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. You say that this was a spontaneous decision. You just started to drive. What drove you to do it? Well, it started all when I learned about Russian invasion on Ukraine and I ran a fundraiser at my daughter's school.

It ran for about three days. We did good. However, I didn't feel satisfied. I still didn't feel fulfilled. So when I came back home around 2 p.m., I needed to do something. And I just jumped into my car, said to my husband that I'm going for a quick shopping and I went to the border. Which took a bit longer. Maybe it is, I would say so.

And, you know, the thinking behind this from your perspective, I understand, is, you know, when you are there, you're very frightened, as we were just hearing. You're without most of your belongings. You don't have much for yourself and you're trying to find a way into Poland safely. And your view of this was there were many men there standing around. But you thought if you could be a woman, perhaps that would offer some comfort. Well, I was a woman. Sorry, yes, but I meant being a woman there might make some women feel safer. Yes, absolutely. I saw several, well, I would say around 20, 30 men standing outside.

It was already quite late as it was around 9pm. I went into what we call here in Poland a reception point where the refugees are temporarily staying. And I saw around 50 women with children sitting there and not going anywhere. I just raised my hand, I shouted Warsaw in my broken Russian, and I showed three fingers. And immediately, I would honestly say it took me two, three seconds for three women to stand up, two sisters and daughter of one of them, and to be happy to go with me. Of course, I made a point of registering at the reception point and making sure my ID is known to the police

and they know where I'm taking them, et cetera. And during our conversation in the car, my suspicious were confirmed because they simply said that they were scared. They were terrified to go with a foreign man in a foreign country to a foreign area, which is completely understandable as I would feel exactly the same way if I ended up in the middle of the night with one suitcase and with my eight-year-old daughter, you know, in Ukraine.

Yes. And for you, that conversation, you said it was your broken Russian that you put up there to try and communicate. How was it communicating in the car? It's slow. You know, it takes them a while to warm up, to feel safe, even with me as a female. It's, you know, first of all, it's just basic stuff. So I always make sure I have this short list written in Ukrainian to make sure to ask them, are you hungry?

Do you need to go to toilet? I make sure to give them hotspot access because often they don't have internet connection and they want to let their relatives, their friends know that they are actually safe,, are going somewhere, etc. So all of this, upon this is done, then we start to converse a little bit. I always make a point not to talk about war, not to make them relief what they just experienced,

but just to keep it to the topics that they want to discuss. So it's difficult because I don't speak Ukrainian. However, we manage, we communicate. Yes. And when you take them to Warsaw, where are they then going? Do they have somewhere to go? Well, it varies. It varies. The first people I picked up didn't. So I just invited them to my home and they stayed with me for several days and and they had friends here in Warsaw and some people I tried to... we have amazing group of almost 650 women which we basically post ad hoc stuff. So if I need accommodation, I post it and usually during the drive someone, one of these women will help me and find something for them. And then I have a place to drop them off.

I was going to ask, 650 women now are part of this initiative. Does that mean they're also driving regularly to the border? I would say around 200 of them are active drivers, yes. The others are either occasional or the much needed support. And you mentioned that you drove into Ukraine. Yes. The others are either occasional or the much needed support. And you mentioned that you drove into Ukraine. Yes. I mean, what was that like? Of course, a country at war.

It was, you know, I maybe had half a second of, I felt half a second of fear. But then once you cross the border and you see a group of people and you see tens of children in cold, you just, I mean, I didn't go inside the war zone or anything. So it was just day like every day that's just on the Ukrainian border side. Well, I mean, it's an extraordinary thing that you're doing. And you know, you say it's what you do. But there are a lot of people here in the UK getting in touch with me right now wanting to help wanting to contribute and you found a way I suppose to do that and it sounds like around you in Poland you're also supported and surrounded by people who are trying to help. I mean, oh, I never suspected that this would be happening in Poland.

So this is great. Of course, there are dangers, as Joanna from La Strada mentioned. However, as I said one time, it's also important to try to provide this bubble of safety, even for these women to feel this a little bit, tiny bit of comfort. And when you are at the border, how many times have you gone now? I think 11 or 12. My goodness, in the last five weeks. Okay, when you are there, does it feel unsafe? Because we are hearing a lot about the border and the concerns of politicians and charities

about the risks to lone children and to women. I would say I don't feel unsafe. However, in this situation, I would feel unsafe if i was on ukrainian side i feel confident because i'm in poland i i speak polish i can go to police i can go to the you know firefighters that are around and feel safe uh however i'm not at all surprised that these women are are very scared and after traumatic events mean, family I had said to me they were traveling five days to Ukraine and the car was shot. Yes. Well, as you say, it's unimaginable. But until you're able perhaps to have those conversations and even then, I'm sure it's very difficult to to take in.

Good luck with the next journey and all that you're doing. And is the plan to keep doing this, just to keep going? Yes, absolutely. As long as we can, you know, with the crazy petrol prices, which reached UK level. Yes, I was going to say, it must be quite a costly endeavour, although a very well-meaning one. Yes, we do what we can.

We have some fundraisers to help us because obviously we drive our own cars, we pay for our own petrol. And we'll do it as long as we are able to. Well, Ella, a lot of people are finding you very inspirational in the UK today, listening, and I'm sure for those who also join us from around the world. Ella Jarmulska, thank you very much for talking to us. You're a busy woman and a lot to do. On my way. On your way. Okay. Who has set up something called Women Take the Wheel initiative to welcome the women and children to Poland from Ukraine. And in fact, going into Ukraine, as you just heard,

which is extraordinary. What have you been doing? Many of you getting in touch to talk about the fundraising efforts. Christine for instance also saying although I felt frustrated three weeks ago I use Facebook rarely now but my daughter found transport a sister. Natalia is Polish living in Argentina. Her parents in Warsaw were helping a family from Ukraine so now she matches help with need and And then she researched it, found that it was genuine. This is our listener, Christine. And the girls were happy to send us copies of their passports. We managed to help two adult women from Odessa who had fled to Romania and wanted to get to Berlin

by buying their flights. My daughter booked and paid for the flights to Berlin. No money changed hands elsewhere. And the girls are now happily settled near to Hamburg, seeking residency and work. I feel it was a small gesture, but it's helped these girls, albeit they are concerned for their families who wish to remain in Ukraine.

Another one here, I'm so proud of my two daughters. My eldest organised two collections sent to the Red Cross in Poland via a Polish transport company that they half filled the lorries. My youngest held a raffle in her online fashion sideline, raising over £7,500. And another one from Emma here, though, saying that you'd registered with the government scheme, My youngest held a raffle in her online fashion sideline, raising over seven and a half thousand pounds.

And another one from Emma here, though, saying that you'd registered with the government scheme, Homes for Ukraine, within the first hour of it going live. And since then, you've heard nothing and that you're deeply disappointed. As she says, we have two rooms and watch what's happening in the news and wonder why there isn't the urgency in getting Ukrainians into safe places. And she continues with how concerned she is about what she just heard on the border. Keep your messages coming in on 84844. Now, let's have a bit of this. Staring stuff, that is the sound of Hannah Gill playing Fanfare in G Minor by Emma Louise Ashford. And she's still a rarity in many ways as a female organist

because men still dominate the organ scene, a sentence I hadn't quite expected to say any time soon. They represent 90% of permanent directors of music and organists in English and Welsh churches and cathedrals. The average height for men in the UK at the moment is 5 foot 9 inches. For women, 5 foot 3 inches. The reason this is relevant in this discussion?

Some women organists are finding it hard to reach the pedals. And now the Society of Women Organists has launched a campaign to introduce adjustable organ benches in every public venue. Well, joining us is committee member and avid organist, I think I can say, Marion Lees-McPherson. Marion, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Welcome to the programme. I'm delighted to be here. Well, we've got a whole other part of your life I want to try and get to in a moment because I believe you've got your roots in feminist bands and music to get to.

But if I can start with the organ. We like to do our research. What made you want to start playing? I find the organ very thrilling. It's a very thrilling instrument most wonderful sound that kind of penetrates the whole body and it's even more thrilling when the organist can actually reach the pedals and what taught to me what's the problem here because of course it's not something you'll know about unless you know no well well let me just describe to you what it's like when you're playing the organ.

You're sitting on a bench and you've got two, three or four keyboards or manuals, as we call them, in tiers in front of you. And then you've got stops which you push in and pull out to change the sounds towards the side and various gizmos across the front, which you also operate with your hands. Then on the floor level, you've got the giant wooden keyboard. It looks like a piano for a giant. And you play that with both of your feet. So when you're playing along, both your hands, here you are sitting on your bench, playing along, two hands, two feet, thinking, what are the choir doing? I don't think they're doing the same thing that I'm doing. Oh, help, you know, am I going to fall off the bench because it's too high?

And I'm perched right on the edge of this bench. And it's the last thing that you want to have to worry about but you have to worry about it so often because it's such a common happening and uh i'm five foot three um as which is the average height for a woman in the uk so um uh you know this affects below average height men as well, of course, and young people. But any average height woman who sits on a bench made for an average height man, which is most of them, will be far too high and won't be able to reach the pedals properly. Have you fallen off? Yes, yes, I have. Oh no, what happened? I have. Well, a rather sadistic Radio 4 presenter got me to fall off my bench the other Sunday on the Sunday morning programme just to demonstrate how it was done.

I missed that. I apologise. I'll catch back up. I can't listen to Radio 4 the whole time it seems. But wait, so have you actually fallen off during a performance, though, as well? Yes, I have fallen off during a service. I've never fallen off actually during a recital, which is, you know, great. But, you know, I've been very worried that I might fall off. Well, and that's a horrible thing, I imagine, going through your mind while you're trying to concentrate on everything.

And there's a historic sort of precedent as well. I mean, there was a famous Victorian woman, organist Elizabeth Sterling, and she was sort of auditioning for a job by public audition. And she fell off the bench because the bench was far too high for her. Now, this was nearly 200 years ago. And what I find interesting, she didn't get the job, by the way, because she fell off the bench. What I find interesting about this is that nobody said to her, we're so sorry, Miss Sterling, you're obviously a brilliant organist. We'll just get you a lower bench. Please come back next week and we'll do another audition.

And they just said to her, well, I'm sorry, we'd rather keep the bench, there's three pieces of wood stuck together, than a brilliant organist. Because of course, there are adjustable ones. And this is what you're asking for. Is there an issue around price? Is that the barrier, do you think? Well, I mean, on our Society of Women Organists website, we have a whole page of bench solutions. And the ideal is a fully adjustable bench, which has a handle at the side and it can go up and down. And that's the ideal. But they are a bit pricey at £2,000. There are various kind of options in between, which will maybe have two or three heights. And if you're really hard up, the best thing to do is to buy a second hand non-adjustable bench, get a competent

carpenter to saw a bit off the bottom and bingo, you can reach the pedals. But girls, please do not take a saw to your valuable antique bench, even if you feel like it. Just put your valuable antique on eBay and buy an adjustable bench with the proceeds. Have you come across opposition to this? You know, if you've got a campaign that would hint that some are not happy about this? Well, I think it's one of those things that's just been sort of not noticed. You know, it's a bit like the famous astronaut, woman astronaut who couldn't do the spacewalk. Nobody quite kind of noticed that she was going to need a spacesuit of the right size in order for her to do her spacewalk.

It was just sort of overlooked. And it's also a classic case of women coming into a previously very much male dominated occupation and finding that they have to use the tools and equipment that were based on the male body. You know, as Caroline Criado Perez says, you know, the average male body is used as the template for the average human body. Yes, in all sorts of settings are you talking of course about the writer and journalist i mentioned we've got to leave it there i i i suspect we will have a many a note on this coming in from those who are i would love please for organists to speak out and contact our website if they are if they are uncomfortable on their bench the society of

women organists and i did mention that you were in the stepney sisters an all-female band at the vanguard of the feminist movement is that right guilty as charged right you're coming back you have to come back marion we've got a lot more to discuss but for today we'll have to leave it on the bench as it were uh of what you're of what you're campaigning on at the moment. That's from the Society of Women Organists, Marion Lees-McPherson. It sounds like she's got many more stories to tell us. And I do hope we can have you back on very soon indeed.

But of course, if you've got a connection to that, please do get in touch with the programme and I'll await those messages eagerly. Now, there is another campaign that I wanted to tell you about, which is launching today. It's called the Not Morning Sickness campaign, and it's co-founded by journalists Nicola Kutcher and Charlotte Howden, who are asking health professionals, the media, retailers and you, the public, to ditch the term morning sickness, suggesting pregnancy sickness is a more appropriate descriptor well the co-founder as i've just mentioned nicola kutcher's on the line and also caitlin dean a specialist nurse in this area and chairperson for the charity pregnancy sickness support at nicola if i come to you first what's wrong with morning sickness well there's a lot wrong with it but what's wrong with the term the term well it doesn't only happen in the morning that's the problem so um you look at the Oxford English Dictionary definition of morning sickness, and it says a sign of pregnancy occurring at any time of day. So since when does morning mean any

time of day? And you also feel that perhaps it makes it sound like it's not something that's as horrendous as it can be. Absolutely. So I had it, you know, I had bad pregnancy sickness and felt nauseous all day from morning till night, even turning over in bed in my sleep would make me reach for the sick bowl. It never went away. And other friends have had it really badly. And their boss will say, oh, I understand, but just come in a bit later in the day. So it feeds this misunderstanding, because obviously, the language is broken. The words don't do what we think they do. And, you know, friends would say to me, oh, sorry, you're still feeling ill. It sounds like an all day sickness.

And I was like, yes, it is. And then you're just sick. I mean, that's that's the reality, as opposed to relegating it to a certain portion of the day. Absolutely. It's pregnancy sickness. It might be sickness you have throughout your whole pregnancy. It might only last a few weeks. But every day when you feel perpetually nauseous is horrendous. And the name just really underplays how severe the sickness is for some people.

And that has mental health impacts. Hold that thought for just one moment. Caitlin Dean, let me get a sense, let us all get a sense. How much of a problem is this? How common is this? Hi, yeah, so pregnancy sickness is very much a lot um they'll be having symptoms that are really clinically significant requiring time off work impacting on their ability to eat and drink and of course at the end of the spectrum um you have disease that is very very um life impacting and can be life-threatening um historically um hyperemesis at the extreme end of the spectrum was the leading

cause of death in early pregnancy. So comparing, calling it this sort of fluffy term of morning sickness, as we heard earlier, the sort of the spectrum of COVID, it's a bit like calling COVID a touch of the no smellsies. You know, for some people, it's a very mild inconvenience, or if that, and for other people, it can be very mild inconvenience, if that. And for other people, it can be life-threatening. And certainly still, a huge amount of babies are lost to it. And it can really have lifelong impacts for people. So it's quite a belittling term.

And it leads to people being underdiagnosed, undertreated for really very serious symptoms. And as you say, some of those symptoms can carry on beyond the pregnancy and have an impact. But for many, also, the time that they're pregnant is blighted by this. If you are feeling extremely unwell right now, I mean, maybe you've got your head in the bowl or the toilet listening to this. Some people will for other reasons, of course. So have you got any advice, Caitlin, for what people could do now for women listening in this situation? Yes, absolutely. So there are a number of treatments available.

Obviously, we have anti-sickness medication, which, you know, with mountains of research has failed to find any problems that it would cause for the baby. So there are safe medications and it's okay to take them even if you're pregnant there's a lot of stigma around taking medication um unfortunately none of them necessarily really treat the root cause of the of the problem um and we we don't

yet have a cure for the extreme end of the spectrum of hyperemesis um but there is help out there and obviously there's um charity support so i'm the chairperson for pregnancy sickness support um and you can you can get peer support through that um and we can offer information on um self-help techniques and and things like that as well um and resting and and and so on it's important and recognizing that you know if if the symptoms are worse than what you're anticipating because we all expect a bit of pregnancy sickness um you know it's a normal part and it's almost a rite of passage um so if it's worse than what you're anticipating, because we all expect a bit of pregnancy sickness. You know, it's a normal part and it's almost a rite of passage. So if it's worse than what you're expecting, then it probably is worse than it should be. And it's reasonable to seek assistance and help and speak to your GP or your midwife. Because they will have seen a lot of this

before and we'll have some tips on hand and hopefully some help can be administered. Caitlin Dean, thank you. Nicola Kutcher, to give the final word to you on this, how on earth are you going to change our language? Bit of a campaign there for you, bit of something to achieve. Yeah, well, it doesn't work, the language. So we're asking everyone to pledge to stop using the term morning sickness. We've already got Holly McNish, the poet, backing us,

Jolie Brearley from Pregnant Then Screwed. i think we're going to see a kind of army of women ready to go to battle with morning sickness and just get rid of it and start using pregnancy sickness in all of our conversations instead because for you i know you explain why but for others they'll be thinking come on you know there's no need necessarily to change this in the sense sense of, if you know what it is all about, if you've gone through it, that's enough, we don't need to necessarily change this. I wonder where it even came from in the first place. Do we know? I really tried to find out I was looking for the man, I thought it would be a man introduced it many years ago. But actually, before the 1830s, we called it just nausea and vomiting in pregnancy, which is the medical name. And it seems somehow it crept in around the 1850s. It became normal in our country to call it morning sickness. But why are we being gaslighted by a term from the

past and other countries don't have it? So France, Sweden, Spain, Romania, Italy, they all just call it pregnancy nausea or pregnancy sickness. There is no time of day attached to it. Nicola Kutcher, thank you very much indeed. And Caitlin Dean, a specialist nurse in this area, of course, as she was saying, do go and seek help from your doctors and have those conversations and from those midwives who can help you and answer any concerns or questions you have about the safety of any such medicines or how you're feeling at all. And Sue's on board. She says pregnancy sickness, not morning sickness. questions you have about the safety of any such medicines or how you're feeling at all and that sue's on board she says pregnancy sickness not morning sickness yes thank you i said this all

through my five months of 24-hour sicknesses to 19 years ago thank you huge vote of support there now in our series threads we have been talking to you about the clothes that you have hung on to the ones you can never get rid of, and they hold those powerful emotions. And Dorothy got in touch, sending us a photo of a beautiful dress. I believe you wore age 14. Dorothy, good morning. Hi, Jess. Can you describe the dress for us? It was a full-length dress, maxi dress uh cotton green a slightly ruched bodice square square neckline

and short sleeves which was slightly puffed and the skirts it was cut on the bias so it skimmed the hips and yeah I loved it and this was this was a special dress you can remember exactly when and where you bought it how How much did it cost? It cost £4.99. And I bought it from a boutique, as we used to call them in those days, in Hereford Town Centre. And I saw it in the window and I had to have it. Yeah.

It wasn't bought, though, for a special occasion. But what you now associate it with was a very memorable night. It was a memorable night. I associate it with was a very memorable night. It was a memorable night. I associate it with that particular night, but it also has other kind of connotations as well. But that particular night, it was a barn dance. I think it was near Ross-on-Wye. I can't quite remember. And in those days, a friend and I, Angela,

we used to go to, you know, kind of do dances all around the county. One of our fathers would take us and another father would pick us up at the end of it. And that particular night, yeah, I had my first gin and orange. Very nice. Yeah, by, yes, a guy who I can still remember very well. And yeah, I had my first kiss. I probably did have a few fumblings before that on previous occasions, but that was the kiss that, you know, kind of blew my mind.

I love it. Aged 14, you're having a gin and orange and a first kiss that blew your mind. Those days, yeah, exactly. So tell me, the first kiss, was it good? Because for some, it's not. It was good. Yeah, it was great, actually. Okay, we're not getting any more details, are we? We're leaving it at that. I mean, I can still kind of feel the hand on my waist, you know? Oh, okay. And the dress is where in your house now? Where do you keep it? I keep it in my wardrobe. It's not the only dress I've kind of kept from my teenage years.

But that one, yeah, it's kind of special. And what does it what does it mean to you? And could you ever imagine getting rid of it? Well, I kind of, well, gosh, at some point, maybe I will, because, you know, I'd like somebody else to wear it. I think maybe I imagined that I'd have a daughter, but I actually had a very lovely son instead. So, yes, sometimes I think, you know, I've got several items and I think, well, maybe I'll take them somewhere and somebody else can wear them. That would be nice. But yeah, it's got a lot of good memories for me it's that it's that sort of period in your life when you're on the brink of becoming I mean 14 is a little young to be thinking of becoming a woman but it is a very exciting time being you know a teenager and um yeah I think I've been a quiet child and this was you know I was on the brink of something completely different I was no longer door mouse as my as my uh family used to call me um you know I was going to be

somebody else yeah exactly and that's the power of you know just one item and where it can take you to and where it can take you back to when you look at it Dorothy lovely to talk to you thank you for sending it into the program and describing it so well we'll put a picture on the Woman's Hour website and on our social media feeds so you can see what the item of clothing is that Dorothy

is talking about and of course as always do get in touch you've been doing that throughout the morning and I did say we would get quite a few responses about

our discussion around the height of the stall when you are playing the organ very interesting item says Eleanor I'm five foot and also struggle when I'm playing,

but the problem isn't necessarily solved by a lower bench because then the keyboards and the music you're reading is too high. Ideally, the organ itself would change height too. Well, you can go and join that campaign, I suppose, and bring that up. You brought it up with us. I couldn't help laughing, says this one from Jenny. When listening to the organist, I play Irish pipes

and I have to have my set reduced in certain places to fit me. They're all man-sized and uncomprehending eyebrows are raised when you bring this up. They managed to make child-sized tennis rackets and golf clubs. Why not female-sized musical instrument? It makes it so much harder to play, says Jenny, who seems to have come up against this already. And I'm sure many more to follow.

Someone else who's joined the campaign. One here, I'm six foot six, and on some organs I'm too tall. Oh, to be average height. Shall look forward to attending the events listed with regards to women in organists and their organisation. Thank you so much for your company this morning.

We'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. morning we'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one. Hi yeah you hello hi don't go away I've got a quick couple of questions for you if you don't mind. So how much do you think you really know about the menstrual cycle? Beyond the period bit. Did you know, par exempla, that the hormone oestrogen makes you smell better? Or that your hormones change the way your brain works hour by hour? And that you could even biohack them to maybe, I don't know, bag a job or run a PB? No? Well, that's not surprising, you're not alone there. The mysterious workings of the womb have been a dark secret for centuries.

The ancient Greeks thought the womb was a mischievous moving creature that wreaked havoc on the body. And the Victorians, well, they thought that if you examined a woman's vagina, she would devour you in a mad fit of sexual rage. As you can see, we are really on the back foot here. All of us. I'm India Rackson. And when I found out about the amazing things that happen in our wombs and brains through the cycle, my mind was so blown that we got to work making this podcast.

28-ish Days Later for BBC Radio 4. 28 episodes, each charting every day of the very approximate 28-day cycle. It looks at the science of our bodies and the way that we've been treated through history, and discovers how understanding our cycle can change our lives. Fancy striding back into your powerful menstruating self? Me too. And you can listen to 28ish Days Later now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.