Woman's Hour - Ellen DeGeneres, crime writer Denise Mina and Kids in Crisis After Covid

Episode Date: August 19, 2020

Three producers on the Ellen DeGeneres Show in the US have been fired amid allegations of misconduct and sexual harassment and reports that it was a "toxic workplace". As one of the highest paid and popular stars on TV Ellen ends her talk show with the catch phrase "be kind to one another". What is the impact on her popularity and reputation following the sackings? Jenni speaks to New York-based journalist and broadcaster Jane Mulkerrins.At the age of 23, Camilla Thurlow was accepted by the HALO Trust to train in explosive ordinance disposal, finding and clearing landmines in some of the world’s most dangerous and inhospitable places. She then signed up for hit TV show, Love Island, where she came second. She describes it as the scariest thing she could have done. She subsequently impressed viewers in Celebrity SAS: Who Dares Wins, and has now written a book - Not the Type – Finding my place in the real world, about learning to confront her anxieties in a world dominated by celebrity culture. She now sits on the board of Indigo Volunteers and has a close relationship with the charity Choose Love/Help Refugees.Coronavirus and the lockdown have changed things for everyone – but what kind of lasting impact will it have on the mental health of children? Jenni is joined by the Head of See, Hear Respond at Barnardo’s, Amanda Naylor and the Child Psychologist, Angharad Rudkin who explain how best to support children in the days ahead. Denise Mina is the award-winning Scottish crime writer of novels including the Garnethill trilogy and The Long Drop. She joins Jenni to discuss her latest thriller – the Less Dead – which is inspired by real life murders of sex workers in Glasgow in the 1990s. Nanette Pollock – former DCI who worked in in Glasgow CID at the time of the murders - will describe her experience of the policing of sex workers in the city at that time, the murders, and an amazing cinematic meeting in the Ballroom at a central Glasgow hotel when 400 street sex workers met to discuss the murders and their personal safety Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Caroline DonneInterviewed guest: Jane Mulkerrins Interviewed guest: Amanda Naylor Interviewed guest: Angharad Rudkin Interviewed guest: Denise Mina Interviewed guest: Nanette Pollock

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Witness Day the 19th of August. Camilla Thurlow did her degree in sports science, was accepted by the Halo Trust to train to find and clear landmines, appeared as a contestant in Love Island, found love and now lives with Jamie Jewett. Why is her book called Not The Type?

Kids in crisis after Covid, as Barnardo's finds more than a million parents are concerned about the mental health of their children. What can parents do to help them? And a new novel by Denise Minor, The Less Dead, looks back to a series of murders of sex workers in Glasgow in the 1990s. We'll be joined by Denise and by the former Detective Chief Inspector who inspired Denise to write her story. Now Ellen DeGeneres is one of America's most highly paid and popular television

presenters, but as you may have read in the papers, all is not well on the Ellen DeGeneres show. Three producers have been fired amid allegations of misconduct, sexual harassment, and reports of a toxic workplace. Yet she is known for her catchphrase, be kind. Indeed, she received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Obama, the highest honour an American civilian can receive. It was for her constant drive towards equality and acceptance for all. When I say be kind to one another, I don't mean only the people that think the same way that you do.

I mean be kind to one another, I don't mean only the people that think the same way that you do. I mean, be kind to everyone. Doesn't matter. So what is the impact on her reputation following the alleged toxic culture in her workplace? Jane Mulkerrand is a journalist and broadcaster based in New York. Jane, what's the background to Ellen's great fame? Good morning, Jenny. Well, yes, Ellen is, she started out as a comedian. She made her name in stand-up before becoming an actress, a presenter,

and really one of the biggest hosts in the US. She's presented the Grammys and the Oscars. People have probably seen the selfie that she tweeted from the Oscars last time she hosted with all sorts of A-listers, including Bradley Cooper. And it was one of the most retweeted pictures of all time. But she's also recognised not just for her work in entertainment, but for her work in representation and rights for the LGBTQ community. She herself is gay and she came out on television,

live on television on Oprah in 1997, which, lest we forget, was enormous at the time, particularly in America, which is still there are still large pockets of homophobia in this country now. But particularly in 1997 was incredibly risky, both for her career and for her personal freedom in lots of ways. And so she's credited with really doing more for helping drive forward representation. And it was for that that she received the Presidential Medal of Freedom, which she just mentioned. How did she begin this kind of catchphrase of be kind, with which I think she ends all her shows? Yeah, she does end all of her shows with that. And it's really become her brand. Not only does she end the show with it, but she also has a line of merchandise for sale online,

which you can buy hoodies and T-shirts and mugs with this B-crime brand on it. It's also something she's used to defend herself against some accusations in the past of a sort of mismatch between perhaps what she publicly professes, rights for the LGBTQ community and friendship with people like George W. Bush, who she was photographed with a few years ago, an NFL game, an American football game. And she defended it by saying she doesn't just talk about being kind to people who agree with you, but being kind to those who don't agree with you. What led to the sacking of these three producers on her show? I mean, there's a long and a short answer to that, Jenny,

that there is a long tail to whispers, Chinese whispers, really, in Hollywood about Ellen's perhaps off-screen lack of kindness that has been swirling around for a while and there have been with us the last few years, really. But it really began in earnest in the spring of this year when a comedian and writer in Los Angeles, Kevin Porter, invited people on Twitter to bring forward their stories of Ellen's meanness.

He said that she's very much not the kind person that she purports to be on television. And that really unleashed a Twitter storm of stories about Ellen, both in cafes and in the workplace, some of them on the record, some of them off the record. And that really was what started building this snowball, really, of accusations against Ellen, which culminated in an investigation by the publication BuzzFeed in July. And that was the publication which brought accusations of a toxic workplace environment from 10 employees at the Ellen Show. And then last week, a second report alleging sexual misconduct in the workplace.

And this is the report that really led to the sacking on Monday. What's been her response then to allegations of a toxic work environment and her not being as kind as she might like to portray herself? Well, the first accusations by BuzzFeed led to an apology in which she said that she was taking responsibility for the accusations in the show. She said, everything we do, I take responsibility for. The show's got my name on it. But she also said, as we've grown exponentially, I've not been able to stay on top of everything. And I've relied on others to do their job as they knew I'd want them to.

Clearly that didn't happen. So she's been accused of being slightly disingenuous with that apology, taking responsibility without taking responsibility. And the sacking of three producers, three very senior producers at the show this week, some have said does smack slightly of scapegoating in that these three producers are the four guys.

I mean, it is much easier to pin sexual misconduct as a criticism of a show than it is for something more nuanced and more nebulous like a toxic workplace environment. What's she had to say since the sackings then? So she said she hasn't given a public apology since the sackings, but she gave an apology to her team apparently by video

on Monday afternoon, saying that she wasn't perfect and she'd learned to try, she'd tried to learn from her mistakes. What's the US press saying about her since this has all come to light? It's interesting. The US press has been her since this has all come to light? It's interesting. The US press has been pretty uniform in its criticism of her.

The New York Times piece yesterday said that the facade is cracking at the show. Fox News is very focused on the sexual misconduct, which is not a little ironic given the history of sexual misconduct at Fox News. But the New Yorkerers talked about, interestingly, her relatability crisis. They're putting this down to a crisis of authenticity of Ellen and her brand, and not just what's happening in the office there. So there is a focus on the actual allegations,

but also in looking at Ellen as a brand. I mean, she's 62 years old. She's one of the best paid people in US entertainment. And the question is whether her brand can really sustain this, whether it can hold. What impact do you reckon it's having on her fans? It's difficult to say because I think someone of her calibre in some quarters is too big to fail.

I mean, her show is very mainstream. It's a daytime chat show. It's watched and loved by an awful lot of people in Middle America. They're not necessarily the same people who are going to read BuzzFeed or The New Yorker. They will love Ellen and they will probably defend her. And they may not care whether she is a difficult boss, which is one way you could look at some of these reports.

Is she a difficult boss? There may also be accusations that she's being unfairly treated as a woman in entertainment. Would a man be treated in the same way if he was accused of being a difficult boss I think her fan base is unlikely to take too much of this too seriously I think the question is what it means for investors and media companies sponsors whether she's invited to those things like the Oscars again they're the sort of things that will take a hit but I'm not sure her fan base will really change very much.

Jane Mulkerrins, very interesting. Thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now, if you're a fan of Love Island, Camilla Thurlow will be familiar to you. She appeared in 2017, came second, and now lives with the man she met there, Jamie Jewett. But before that, she gained a first at Loughborough in sports science and was accepted by the Halo Trust to train in explosive ordnance disposable, that's finding and clearing landmines in countries like

Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Cambodia. Her memoir is called Not the Type, Finding My Place in the Real World. Camilla, good morning. You begin the book with a description of a car accident when you were 17, which could have been completely disastrous, but actually you walked away from it. How did that affect your view of your future? Morning, Jenny. Yes, so that car accident was perhaps my first experience of life kind of veering off course. And there was sort of almost a flyaway comment that my mom made shortly after the accident because I was waiting for my A-level results and I was very, very nervous about them. And she said, oh, how can you still be worried about that?

You must know that you could not be here right now. And at the time, it took a little while to settle in my brain. But I suppose it was that idea that you can think you're doing the most straightforward thing you can have your life planned out ahead of you and that you're keeping to a very well-established path but life is incredibly complicated and will throw you a few curveballs and so living chaotically isn't quite as terrifying as it might seem. What drew you to work in explosive ordnance disposal? So I grew up in Scotland and Halo is one of the biggest charities.

And so I was very well aware of their work. And I had always admired what they did and I was always desperate to work for them. The thing with explosive ordnance disposal is the outcomes of it are incredibly tangible and HALO works with the poorest, most marginalized communities who've been affected by conflict and they're the communities where you can see how desperately, terribly they're affected by landmines and then how much of a difference is made when they're cleared. So, for example, the land that they cannot use to grow food for their families, once it's cleared, you see crops being grown on it or you see a school being built somewhere that was previously unusable because of the dangers.

So it was the tangibility of it all and being able to find a way to make a real difference for people. Now, having started doing administrative work, you did train to work in the field. How risky is that work? How dangerous is it? That's such a good question. I mean, there is, of course, an element of risk. You're working with explosive items. And it's important to maintain that kind of healthy level of fear where you respect what you're working with so that you make sure that every single time you had the absolute best training and I knew I was good at what I was doing. But it was also important just to always have that in your mind. But it has to be done right every single time to be a safe procedure. So what are the basic rules, Camilla? Before you, you know, the landmine is there.

Yeah. Where do you go first? So the first thing you do when you're clearing a minefield is you would identify metal signals, usually using a detector. Then you complete a very careful excavation up to the landmine. And then we would normally use a process in every country where we were allowed explosives, we would complete a process which is called destroy in situ, which is when you lay a donor charge, retreat to a safe distance, and then you blow up the landmine and that's it destroyed completely. That's much safer than fiddling around with anything. But there are other times where you might do a slightly different process based on other factors.

And there's a term that's known as one man one risk which means just one person goes forward to lay the charge just one person completes the demolition and yeah and that's you know once it's blown up that's it it's gone it doesn't come back it can't return by itself and that's that is one of the most satisfying things about landmine clearance, is it's a problem that truly can be solved. You write about some occasions that clearly made a really deep impression on you. I wondered what you learned from an occasion like coming across the monument to a 27-year-old teacher who was murdered in Afghanistan after a false accusation of burning a Quran. He was 27 when he was murdered.

You were 27 when it happened. What did you learn from that? Yeah, so that's the story of Fahunda. She, I mean, her story really stuck with me. But there's a monument to where she was finally murdered, which we used to drive past on the way to the explosive stores um that was just outside Kabul and so I saw it on a regular basis and I was 27 at the time and um I mean I write I write a full chapter on this in the book because it's just

such a significant story both for me personally but it had quite a big international effect on the fight for women's rights. And it was one of those circumstances where you could really see how different life could be. You could see yourself in someone else. And equally, it was one of those circumstances where it kind of opened my eyes up to the fact that there are these voices that have power and that can have a huge effect on other people's lives and in this case the most terrible impact on the loss of Farhunda's life. But yes if you haven't heard the story I would urge anyone to go and read about it. In her funeral it was the first time they had female pallbearers at an afghan funeral um and the woman wouldn't allow her coffin to be touched by

by any men so it was a it was a really terrible terrible story but the bravery with which she lived her life um has had a very far-reaching effect. So eventually you come back home and then you decide to do Love Island. Why? Good question. So I came back early, sort of around January, February time, and it was almost just as I got off the plane from Afghanistan, I was approached by one of the casting researchers for the show online. And I'd really struggled.

I'd basically had this kind of social dislocation thing going on where I really couldn't connect with my family and friends. I was in a difficult place in my head. I was struggling to process the previous few years and what I had seen and how to move forward and live a balanced life where I could be helpful but also could feel myself again and so the Love Island kind of application was actually sort of going on in the background as I tried to resolve a few of these internal struggles. And I went for a few of the chats, and they just kept asking me back to each stage.

And I wasn't really thinking about it, but I was still very unsure what I was going to do with the future. And so when they asked if I would be in the opening cast, it was someone giving me an answer. This was the next step. It also seemed like immersive socialising therapy, if that makes sense, sort of that you couldn't avoid socialising in that environment. You are remembered for talking to Johnny about feminism. Why did you feel the need to do that? I mean, it was a conversation that happened happened the thing when you're in Love Island

is obviously you immediately become quite unaware of the cameras so it was just a conversation that I'd had and I'd heard so many times before and that conversation was quite significant to me I got really upset afterwards and I did see when I first came out after the show that a lot of people couldn't understand why I was so upset by it I was upset by a lot of things on the show so I do understand to some extent but that one particularly stuck with me because it it spoke to the frustration I'd felt in kind of the years previously where I couldn't communicate to my friends and family why the things I'd seen had so drastically changed my view and perspective of the world and how important it is for us to

to know about such causes and to see the impacts of them globally how surprised were you to find love in Love Island with Jamie? I mean, my overwhelming memory of Love Island is actually the friendships that I was able to build up in there because, as I said, I did go in with kind of this difficulty with speaking to people and communicating with the people around me and I made some really close friendships and I was really well supported by the women in there. And that made a huge difference for me.

Jamie came in right at the end of the show, actually. And so, yeah, I think we were incredibly fortunate to meet on the show. I don't think we would have met anyway. We had completely different jobs, so I don't know how we would have met otherwise. But we were also really lucky in that then we the show ended and we were able to get to know each other in in the real world where you can meet each other's friends and family and just see how you slot together and we had a bit more time

to do that process and I think we've all just read that there are congratulations in order because you're going to have a baby thank you very much that's very kind thank you and you're happy to be open about that are you because we we did read it in the papers yes yes yeah camilla camilla thurlow thank you very much indeed for being with us best of luck with the pregnancy and i will just mention again the title of the book, Not the Type, Finding My Place in the Real World. Camilla, thank you. Now, still to come in today's programme, the crime writer Denise Miner and her new novel, The Less Dead, inspired by Nanette Pollock,

a former Glasgow detective chief inspector who worked in the city when there was a number of murders of sex workers. Nanette joins us too. And the serial, of course, episode three of Lucy Loves Desi. Now earlier in the week, you may have missed a discussion about older women who are child free and another about sex offenders. Can they change? If you've missed the programme, all you have to do is go to BBC Sounds or indeed to the Woman's Hour website

and there of course you will find the podcast. Now children in Scotland are back to school. In England and Wales they're due back at the beginning of September but I doubt there's a parent in the United Kingdom who isn't worried about the effect the long separation from friends and education has had since the start of the pandemic and the lockdown in March. Barnardo's have published some research which says more than a million parents have said they feel their children would benefit from professional treatment to help with their mental health. Well it won't of course be available to everyone so how can parents best support their children? harrod rodkin is a child psychologist

amanda naylor is the head of see hear respond at bernardo's in england amanda what concerns have you been hearing from children so already the service has only been launched a month and already children are referring themselves they're telling us of increased anxiety increased sleeplessness feeling overwhelmed by big feelings which are translating in sometimes into quite difficult behaviors within the home we're also hearing from children who've taken on caring responsibilities for adults who may be shielding or caring responsibilities for younger siblings. From our black Asian minority ethnic children we're seeing increased hate crime and

increased concerns around how disproportionately their health is being impacted by Covid-19. So really significant issues that are affecting children that would normally not require any additional support but because of these unprecedented times would really welcome and benefit from some localised support that really practically helps them get ready to get back into school and some level of normality. And Amanda what has it all meant for parents relationships with their children at home i suspect it might have been pretty difficult at times absolutely so some parents and children have been very lucky and maybe parents have been furloughed and it hasn't financially impacted on the family and they've had some beautiful quality time which is great but many parents are juggling huge amounts of

responsibility as well as homeschooling children and this is really impacting and Amanda I'm really sorry to interrupt but I'm afraid as keeps happening these days the line has gone a little bit dodgy so I'm going to bring Angharad in and we're going to call you back and see if we can improve things and harrod when parents are worried about this what sort of signs of distress should they be looking out for in their young children so when when we're looking at our children we need to be taking into account things like um tearfulness, them feeling quite withdrawn and not wanting to be part of family life or go outside the home and we also look at things like appetite and sleep as well as indicators of what's going on for our children but the great thing is

most children are quite happy to show their emotions and I think the harder job for a parent is to how to manage those emotions when they're being incredibly angry or quite explosive or ratty or surly. So I think it's the problem is that our children show us our emotions a bit too much sometimes. How do you manage ratty and surly and all the difficulties that they can throw at you? It's not an easy job. I think if you ask any parent around the world at the moment, they probably aren't feeling at the top of the game because we have been chucked a lot of emotions by our children. And of course, the kinds of, I guess, dissipating experiences

that school and peers provide, we haven't had that. So it's all been funnelled towards us as parents. So I think a lot of what we need to do is just contain those emotions. We can't make it all better. We can't give answers. We can't create certainty. But what we can do is contain our children's emotions. We can say to them, I completely understand why you're feeling this way. I feel like this, too. How can we make it better right now? And when it comes to the practicalities, like Amanda was speaking about, it's about going for a little walk together um just sitting and being together um I don't know

skyping grandparents anything that just helps you to give a little sense of relief in that moment one of the things that must have caused terrible trouble at home is what's been happening with the exams. I mean, this is obviously older children, both, you know, late teenagers. How can parents best support children through the trauma they've been through for exam results? It's incredibly difficult. And I think teens have been particularly challenged by lockdown because, of course, they're on the path towards independence the whole point of being a teenager is to break away from home gradually and gently as you move

through adolescence and they've been foisted back into the family home with you know potentially annoying siblings, irritating parents, not seeing their friends they've had a tough time anyway and then for that to have ended with a slightly, I know it hasn't been haphazard, but a slightly difficult exam process. I think their sense of unfairness is going to be enormous. And as parents, again, we can't make it all okay. We can't say it's going to be all right. All we can do is contain their emotions, help them to see that everyone is in this together. And what are the certainties in life what can we count on it can be our friends and the fact they are going to a certain university even if it's not the one that

they wanted to go to um so it's about clinging on to the certainties we have and just tolerating the uncertainty and the unjustness of all of this amanda i think we've got you back again now um i know you've launched see here respond, Respond with the Department of Education. What are you hoping it will do to help? So See, Hear, Respond is for families right across England and we've contracted with 57 different local grassroots charities and larger national charities as well to make sure that we connect families to services that can help at this time is a huge front door. So all families need to do is come to our landing page, See, Hear, Respond Benidols, where they'll find a free phone number or a web form to gain contact to us.

And they will be met with a Benidols worker who will talk to them about what it is that their family specifically needs. We can work with children, we can work with the adults in that family if it's going to benefit children, to really think about how to do, as suggested, some of that containment and how we enable children to get into a place where they feel able to return to school, able to reconnect in communities and really start to think positively and move forward from COVID-19

into what should be a more positive future. And Harrod, I know a lot of parents are frightened of the pandemic and are frightened of going out and are maybe frightened of their children going back to school. So how can parents who are anxious about the virus allay the fears of their children going back to school. So how can parents who are anxious about the virus allay the fears of their children going back to school? I think the, again, we have very few answers, don't we? And our children take, they use our emotional levels to manage theirs. So if we're incredibly anxious, they're going to be incredibly anxious.

So even if you don't feel particularly safe and secure sending your child back to school, act as if you are. Smile when you're talking about school. Be very lighthearted when you're talking about washing hands and stuff, letting them know it's very important. But try not to emphasise the risk for them because this is their lives. And while children are forming their view of the world, they're going to be doing it in a very different context to how we'd hoped. So what we don't want is our children being incredibly anxious going on,

because this could go on for another year or two at least. So really be quite smiley, quite confident, quite happy and hopeful when you're talking about going back to school with your child, even if your feelings are quite different. Use your friends and your family to then talk about your worries. But your children, they need to have your hope and your confidence and your belief in a brighter

future for them in order for them to feel equipped to go on. Anne-Harrad Rudkin and Amanda Naylor, thank you both very much indeed. And we would like to hear from you on this question. How are you managing to ease the worries that your children might have? What are you actually doing to help and how are you keeping yourself fit enough to do it? Send us a tweet or of course an email and we'd love to hear from you and thank you both. Denise Miner is the award-winning Scottish writer of some of the best crime novels around. Her latest is The Less Dead, which is inspired by the real-life murders of a number of sex workers in Glasgow in the 1990s. Nanette Pollock, from whom we'll hear in a moment, was a detective chief inspector in Glasgow CID at the time.

In Denise's story, Margot is a GP who was adopted as a baby. Her adoptive mother has recently died, so she decides to try and trace her birth mother, Susan. Instead, she meets Nicky, her aunt, and finds her mother was one of the women who had been killed. That's where the novel begins. Denise, why did you call this book The Less Dead? Well, it's a fairly new term and it really is a way of talking about the fact that some victims are taken more seriously than other victims. A prize was set up about three years ago, very well meaning it's called the Staunch Prize. And it was to support crime fiction that didn't focus on young, blonde victims of sexual assault, which I think that's the right question to ask. But I think it was the wrong answer because the problem isn't crime fiction.

The problem is that we as a society value those victims much more than we do some other victims. So for example in crime fiction if you have a vicar's daughter who's been murdered that would be enough to power your way through the entire book but if it's sex workers you would have 15 and they would be killed in increasingly gory ways and that was something I really wanted to look at in the context of real people and that series of murders. Why was it important to you that Margot is a middle-class doctor who has been adopted and had a clearly very good childhood and then set her into this nightmare scenario? Well, you know, it's a fascinating thing, and I'm sure a lot of people are aware that over the years,

the feminist movement tends to go through cycles where we really only include people who are very like us. And it's very relevant to Black Lives Matter. So I was an academic feminist and we were arguing about semantics. We're all men, potential rapists, while women were being beaten, while women were being murdered at the rate of two a week. And it's just we do tend to get circular arguments that take up all the energy and we exclude women like sex workers we exclude women who do not fit the profile margo perfectly fits the profile of

who will be empowered by this movement but it's about how we can include people who are not like us and people who don't fit into that stereotype. How easily does she, do you reckon, form a relationship with her aunt Nikki? Well, Nikki's very working class. She's very beautiful. She's an ex-sex worker, an ex-addict. And one of the lovely things about this character, and she's very like a lot of the women that I interviewed for this, is Nikki knows exactly who she is and she isn't sorry. And she's very like a lot of the women that I interviewed for this, is Nikki knows exactly who she is, and she isn't sorry, and she's very dignified, and you know, I think Margot at the beginning tries to slightly patronise her, and she's a bit discombobulated by Nikki, and gradually, because they spend a bit of time together, she gets to see that she is an absolutely amazing woman, and they don't have much in common. Nikki doesn't really understand things

because she isn't university educated, so she keeps thinking if she can get some DNA, that will solve the case. But what she doesn't understand is that you need a database to compare the DNA to. So there is an educational distance between them, a social distance, a life experience distance, but they can reach across that because um they come to understand one another and their family that seems to be really crucial running under all of this well it is and the thing is you know family isn't blood i mean that's i you know i come from a very big family and lots of people were adopted or gave people up for adoption and and there's been a lot of reconciliation meetings um over the past few decades

and what you realise is it's not really about blood, it's really just about choosing each other and they choose each other. Let's hear part of the book where Margot is going to meet Nicky. The salt market is going up market but it still has pockets of the old rough city. There are dead ends and dark corners, beggars and fighting drunks.

But Margot still feels comfortable there, because nearby there are streets of cool restaurants, photography galleries and there's a bar full of retro arcade games frequented by bearded hipsters. It's seven o'clock on a quiet Wednesday evening in the city centre. The temperature has dropped. Frost is creeping white along the pavement, sparkling in the air under the streetlights. Occasional buses trundle past, windows dripping with condensation, passengers shifting around inside like fish in dirty tanks. Taxis patrol the main streets, prowling for customers. but they're not taking a taxi, they're walking. Despite being clean and sober, Nikki still has an addict's distinctive walk. She's fast, she lifts her knees high like an antelope, never looking to see if her companion is beside her, eyes dead ahead on a mission. Margot sees underweight people in ones and twos walking

like that through busy streets all the time. She envies their singleness of purpose, the certainty that they're walking towards something that, if they can only just get there, is absolutely guaranteed to make them feel better. Denise, how did you become involved with Nanette with whom we will speak in a moment? Well I had seen Nanette on telly for years and I was doing a voiceover on a police documentary about the history of the police and I just thought I've got to speak to this woman

so I contacted her through a few journalist friends and then went over and interviewed her. And she could not have been more gracious. Nanette, you could not have been more gracious, according to Denise. But what did you make of her fiction of crimes you lived through and becoming a character, albeit with a different name? Absolutely. Good morning. It was, Denise's description just fits perfectly. It's got that rustic, that gritty feeling.

And she just described the streets of Glasgow so well. I joined the police force in 1972. And up until really the early 90s, Glasgow in many respects wasn't an awful lot different from any other UK city. It reflected everywhere else as in pockets of poverty, unemployment, everyday crime, low-level scams, alcoholics, but had an excess of homelessness and prostitution. We did have gangs and gang wars, and that reinforced the violent label that Glasgow has always had. In 1982, we had one street worker murdered,

and the person responsible was arrested and convicted and done his time and had a drink before they went on the street. But more importantly, they were compass mentors and they all looked out for each other. But then it went on and there were more and more murders. Reading about it reminded me of what happened in Ipswich where women would go out to work the streets knowing there was a murderer about. How did the police handle that? Well sadly in 1991 the reason for the murders really was heroin hit the streets of Glasgow having been introduced by some of Glasgow's finest gangsters realising

the amount of money to be made and from then in, extreme violence on the streets was an everyday occurrence. Armed robberies at banks, building societies were happening weekly, street robberies were happening, break-ins to shops, but most importantly, prostitutes were getting murdered. The streets of Glasgow were not safe, and it was certainly living up to its violent reputation. What did you know about the women who continued to go out there to, I think it was called the drag, knowing there was a murderer about?

Why did they keep on going? Well, they had no choice. Unfortunately, they themselves had become drug addicts. Most of them lived with a partner who was probably violent and most certainly a drug addict as well. The women didn't have a roof over their own heads. They had to live with someone else. And basically, they did it because there was nothing else they could do.

And they were aware of the dangers. They were aware of a murderer probably on the loose, but they couldn't do anything about that. They just had to carry on. of the dangers, they were aware of a murderer probably on the loose, but they couldn't do anything about that. They just had to carry on. How seriously, Nanette, were the murders generally taken by the police? Oh, absolutely, so seriously, because we realised for a start it's one of the most difficult murders you can have. You don't have any witnesses and you never will have any witnesses. We realised for a start it's one of the most difficult murders you can have.

You don't have any witnesses and you never will have any witnesses. The girls themselves are drug addicts. They don't even remember what day it is. So you really, you have no witnesses, barely any evidence. If you do have evidence, it's DNA and every prostitute carries DNA on them anyway. But the problem is you've got no starting point. Usually a dead body is found. That's your starting point. You've got nothing else.

And I know you set up a Roots Out of Prostitution. How successful was that? It was very successful. What we realised is we needed a multi-agency approach to deal with prostitution, because these women are in prostitution for lots of different reasons, mainly drug addiction. But, you know, there's mental health issues, there's homelessness, there's children in care.

So we had to address all these issues. And to do that, we had to have a holistic approach so we pulled together lots of agencies an agency that would address all the issues the women had to get them into prostitution and therefore get them out and we held a meeting one night in a hotel center a center in a hotel in the town. And we were amazed at the amount of women that turned up there. Because don't forget, we're dealing with drug addicts, and you don't even remember what you tell them. But they were so keen to get out of prostitution that they all attended that night. So Denise, it's obviously been an extraordinary working relationship that that you've had with nanette

what are you hoping people will take away from this story which is really very very sad well i hope that people will um actually listen to sex workers that's that's one of the things that's true i mean that's a real change a real sea change in the past few years is that uh you know sex workers are actually being listened to instead of having services shot at them. And I hope it humanises these women. And one of the things about the heroin epidemic is we very rarely hear any of the women's experiences. They really are tropes or props in stories about men. And I think that was an extraordinary time. And those are narratives that are really just lost.

There is also, I mean, I said it's sad. It is sad. But there is also humour in your writing. How important in crime writing is your kind of slightly black humour sometimes? Well, I think cops kind of appreciate the black humour, to be honest, because I think you couldn't deal with difficult things if you didn't have a bit of a sense of the ridiculous or a bit of gallows humour.

And I think if you're writing about very sad things, these are fairly grim times. And I think it feels very self-indulgent to write a kind of low-mood narrative at the moment. Really, you need to have things that are a bit uplifting. And actually, you know, there's tremendous wit in Glasgow. I mean, people do trade on being able to tell a good story or make people laugh or engage people.

And so it's very much the flavour of the city is that, you know, people just start laughing or someone will make a quip or something like that. I was talking to Denise Miner and Nanette Pollock. From you, lots on children, COVID and mental health. Chakra said on Twitter, how do I, the BAME mum of a child with underlying conditions, have a light-hearted vibe about returning to school? My child follows the news and knows I'm at risk of dying if I catch Covid,

but also risk fines, prosecution and imprisonment if they don't attend. And Fiona said on Twitter, my worry as an elderly grandmother on my own is how the return to school will affect my granddaughter's visits to me. We have our own bubble, but she'll be in a different one at school. Now, do join me tomorrow at the usual time, two minutes past ten, when I'll be talking to Miriam Margulies. She's appearing in what's described as a tender portrayal of experiencing dementia in lockdown. It's called Watching Rosie, and of course it's available online. It portrays the grandmother Alice and Louise Coulthard, her granddaughter Rosie and we'll discuss the bond between the two as they face change and confusion. That's tomorrow. Bye-bye.

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