Woman's Hour - Ellen White, How to ask for a pay rise, astronaut Christina Koch, Morning-after pill

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

Sunday sees the Women's World Cup final between England and Spain and to mark it we are joined by England's top female goal scorer, Ellen White. By the time of Ellen's retirement after last year’s Euros, she'd scored 52 goals in 113 international appearances. She joins Anita from Sydney to discuss the magic of Sarina Wiegman and her advice for the Lionesses ahead of Sunday's match.Has anyone asked for a pay rise yet? With everything costing more and wages not quite keeping up, maybe it's time we did. Historically women are less likely to ask for a pay rise with a recent survey suggesting half of men have asked for a rise but only 37% of women have. Anita is joined by businesswoman and entrepreneur Sharmadean Reid to discuss.Imagine being the first woman to travel to the Moon. The Nasa astronaut Christina Koch is edging closer to that entry in the history books. She has been chosen as one of the four crew members who will orbit the Moon in the spacecraft Orion, as part of Nasa’s Artermis II mission in November next year. All going well, the Artemis programme will continue in 2025 as Nasa and its partners attempt to land the first woman and first person of colour on the surface of the Moon. Anita speaks to Christina all about it.A new study has found that the morning-after pill is made more effective when taken with an anti-inflammatory painkiller. The study found taking the morning-after pill combined with piroxicam - a drug used for arthritis pain - prevented 95% of pregnancies, whereas taking the morning-after pill alone prevented 63%. Anita is joined by the President of The Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Health at The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Dr Janet Barter, to discuss the significance of these findings. Ligwina Hananto is an Indonesian stand-up comedian journeying to Europe for the first time to appear at the Edinburgh Fringe. She joins Anita to talk about what it’s like to be a hijab-wearing comedian in a conservative Muslim society, and why she feels like she lives a double life.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Manager: Bob Nettles00:00 Opener 01:30 Ellen White 15:34 How to Ask For a Pay Rise 28:58 Christina Koch 43:00 Contraception 48:04 Mrs Hananto

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Is it time you asked for a pay rise? How are you when it comes to negotiating pay? In fact, what happened the last time you asked your boss for more cash? How did it go down? What was your technique, your strategy? I'd love to hear your

stories and your advice this morning. It's summer and maybe you're thinking about the new refresh start come autumn, which includes more money. If you are feeling nervous about it or don't know how to even begin to broach the subject, we've got you covered today. We'll discuss how to get a pay rise. So get in touch with your questions or indeed your advice in the usual way. You can text me 84844. You can email me by going to our website or you can drop me a WhatsApp or even a voice note 03700 100 444. Remember to check the terms and conditions on our website. And if you want to contact us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour.

We've also got some cracking interviews with some incredible women on the programme today. Ellen White, England's top female scorer of all time. And Christina Cook, an actual real-life astronaut selected to be part of the team who will circumnavigate the moon in Artemis II. And Indonesian stand-up Liguina Hananto. Plus, of course, all your words of wisdom.

That text number once again, 84844. How did you negotiate that pay rise? Now, yesterday, many of you were kind enough to get in touch with me to say where you'll be watching the Women's World Cup final on Sunday. The excitement is well and truly building as England take on Spain. Few will know the pressure facing the Lionesses more than England's top female goal scorer of all time, though. The one and only Ellen White,

having appeared at three World Cup tournaments herself and, of course, lifting the trophy last summer at the Euros. During her international career from 2010 until her retirement last year, Ellen scored 52 goals in 113 international appearances. A huge feat. Well, this year she's part of the BBC's punditry team. And earlier this morning, she joined me from Sydney. And I began by asking her what the atmosphere was like.

Oh, it's incredible. I think, you know, this final is going to be so special, isn't it? And I was lucky enough to be at the Australia game and it was just unbelievable, that atmosphere. So, yeah, excitement building and just can't wait, to be honest. Have you had a chance to speak to any of the players? I did bump into Millie and Lucy Bronze after the game, which was lovely, just to tell them how proud I was.

And, yeah, I'm just so proud of the group and they're just such a special group um I really hope they can go on and win it um but it's going to be a tough one but but yeah I think you know I think they're just so excited to be in this final but I think you know they're ready and raring to go. How is it possible to stay calm in a situation like this one because the magnitude of it all, because everybody is talking about 1966, the last time England won the World Cup. So what can they be doing to stay grounded?

I think, you know, as a group, they are very grounded. And obviously we have got experiences now of obviously winning and being in the Euro final. Obviously it's very different, isn't it, to be in a World Cup final. They've all had very different experiences as well with their clubs. But I think, you know, a lot of this group or this group thrives under pressure. I feel like they're just going to be really excited and embrace the moment, really.

And I think, you know, they're more than ready to be on this stage and to be winning a World Cup. So I know that there is going to be nerves. There definitely will be. You're in a World Cup final. I'll be shocked if there wasn't. But I just feel like this group just loves playing football and they've got obviously a great manager

that will take all that pressure away from them and just instil a lot of calmness to them. And I think they'll just be so ready and raring to go come the game. Well, there you go. You've mentioned Serena Vigman the England manager many are saying that she's the best football manager in the world right now would you agree? Oh 100%. What makes her so special? I've only got good things to say about her she's just such a special human being she's a fantastic leader obviously we know that you know she what she

achieved with the netherlands obviously winning the euros and getting to a world cup final with them and then to obviously come over to england um she just instilled this calmness this level of togetherness this culture that you know the whole group wanted to to buy into same with the philosophy and the style of play and she wanted to get to know or she wants to get to know everyone on a individual basis and she's got a lot of empathy so I just think that you know we've been waiting for a manager like this for so many years and then obviously to tie that into having a really talented group it's a an incredible kind of recipe for success so for me like I wish I was younger so I could be part of

this team and get to experience her being my manager for a lot longer but you know she she let all my dreams come true when we won the Euros and you know she's really kind of at the helm for this group potentially going on to win this World Cup final. Yeah you mentioned there the empathy and I've read that about her, that she's really personable. But what's her style? Is she someone who likes to talk a lot, or is she quite quiet? Just trying to understand how someone can be that good. Like, what does she do?

She just likes to... I think for me, she's very honest. And I think as females, we like to have honest conversations. We like to know where we stand, don't we? And she's very good at that. And yeah, she's more than happy to sit and have a conversation. But then at the same time, she's willing to kind of step back and kind of let things happen and be comfortable letting others kind of lead at the same time,

which shows like a great leader, doesn't it? Like she doesn't have to be in control of every single situation she's very good at delegating as well but I think for me she's just very good for this group in particular of explaining roles and responsibilities so everyone understands their role within this team and they feel very free and they feel like they can have an opinion they feel like they have a voice and that's very important being a part of a team when you're away for weeks on end you've got 23 players but then you've probably got more uh staff so it's a big group coming together and you you have to be able to be able to be yourself and i think she allows this team to really express and be who they they want to be and be able to perform

at the highest level yeah yeah she's just got it hasn't she? We're going to be talking about how to negotiate a pay rise on the programme in a minute. But people are talking about Gareth Southgate reportedly being paid five million a year. Very different to Serena's 400,000 salary. What do you make of it? Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Now, yeah, they're saying about Serena, they're looking at her for the men's job. You know, we've spoken so much about equality and equal opportunities and obviously what she's achieved

with this England team. You know, she deserves to get more and she deserves to get, if not the same. I don't know why it's any different. But, you know, I'm sure those conversations will be had once this World Cup is over. But she's an incredible kind of manager, the best in the world right now, bar none. So, yeah, interesting conversations happening, definitely. Absolutely. And then talking of the players as well,

it would sort of be unthinkable for the men to go into a final not knowing what their bonuses would be. And yet the women will be playing Spain on Sunday with no idea if they win. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And these conversations have had to be put on hold because there wasn't any kind of resolution before the World Cup, which is super frustrating for this group because, you know, they want to use their voice in a positive way um you know we've had these conversations for so many years now uh about this bonus structure or facilities or a number of different issues and i'm really proud of this group for speaking out and it's not just for for this group collectively it's for the whole kind of uh legacy of women's football as well these conversations and this

money um so i'm really proud of the group and I hope these conversations continue after the World Cup because these girls deserve so much and what they're achieving, they deserve to get what they deserve, to be honest. And they are achieving so much and we are all thoroughly enjoying watching them achieve it. We've seen some incredible goals in the tournament.

Ella Toon, Lauren Hemp, Alicia Russo, they all scored in the semi-final. Can you describe for us the feeling of what it's like when the ball comes towards you, you hit it and it gets into the back of the net? What does that feeling feel like? I think it's just elation, to be honest. Euphoria.

It's like an outer body experience, really. It's so special to be able to score a goal for your country and in particular, you know, in a World Cup semi-final. It's just absolutely incredible. And for these girls to be doing it at the highest level under so much pressure. Yeah, it's an incredible feeling feeling and for me personally to have been in the stadium and seen that and watched it it was just absolutely so exciting and um super proud of them and what's the key to a good celebration once you've scored uh to be honest uh my one was down to my husband. Your goggle pose. Exactly, yeah.

To be honest, I think you've just got to have fun with it, haven't you? Scoring a goal for your country is just one of the best feelings in the world. So whatever they do, I think you've just got to have fun with it. All right, let's look ahead to the match on Sunday. What kind of threat does Spain pose? Yeah, it's going to be a really interesting game. It's going to be almost like a chess match. They're very much a possession-based team, Spain.

They move the ball so well. They're the highest-scoring team in this tournament so far. They're obviously going to be a big threat going forward, especially in and around the box. For us, we need to be a big threat going forward especially you know in and around the box so you know for us we need to be defensively sound and you know for many years England weren't a possession-based team but now since Serena's come in we want to possess the ball as well so it'd be really interesting how that works of of who's going to possess the ball how quickly can they get the ball back and and then also who's going to be clinical in front of goal.

But they've got some phenomenal players, Spain, and so have England. So it's going to be a really, really interesting, tight encounter. And obviously both teams have never reached a World Cup final as well. So with that becomes a lot of nerves and pressure at the same time.

But it's who can withstand that pressure and who can kind of play their own style of football and stamp their authority in the game. Yeah and now Lauren James is going to be available to Serena after missing two games after getting a red card if you were in her shoes would you start with Lauren or stick to Ella Toon? I think she's potentially going to stick with the team that she has for the last two games you know it's they put in a very kind of complete performance against Australia in the semi-final. And then you could potentially bring Lauren James on to make an impact, something special.

Same with someone like Chloe Kelly as well. So I think Ella Toon really kind of put her name forward and had her hand up being like, I want to be in this starting XI. And you could see the emotion, the power in that shot she scored. It was just unbelievable. So I think she will stick with that same team. Now, I understand that you are in Sydney with your baby. With Maeve, yes, she's here. How is she finding the First World Cup?

And how are you finding it, being out there with her? It's amazing. Yeah, she's with me. I'm still breastfeeding. So, you know, she's with me. My husband's here as well. But yeah, no, she's been amazing and yeah she was at the semi-final my husband had her in the carrier she was pretty much asleep the whole

game which was amazing with their soundproof headphones on because it was very loud um but it was really special for us as a family to to be there and experience um the team getting to to the world cup final um you know we'd spoken before i retired to be like how special would it be if we were to to be able to go to the world cup potentially with with a with our child and experience it together and it would come full circle we were literally there experiencing it together um so it's just it's just an incredible moment and memories that we could tell her when she's a little bit older that you were there, you were witnessed. And potentially to say you were there when England won the World Cup.

Wouldn't that be magic? Absolutely brilliant. What a lovely story for her to have for the rest of her life as well. And you said a little bit earlier in the interview that you wished you were younger. Do you miss it? Do you know what? I actually, I don't actually miss it to be fair I think I feel like um now I've got Maeve um and I feel very content of what I achieved in my career and obviously winning the Euros with England um obviously I miss the girls and miss like the banter and everything like that but um I'm very content with with my life at the moment with my daughter and obviously working with the BBC on the coverage as well it's it's an incredible opportunity for me and I'm very very more than happy to watch from afar and just be very proud of the girls of what they're achieving. And very

quickly score predictions? Do you know what I'm awful at score predictions I think you need Farrah Williams for this. I'm going to go 2-1 England. All right. We'll take it. It's been an absolute delight speaking to you. Thank you so much. And come and see us anytime. We'll put the kettle on.

Sounds good. Thank you. Thank you. Go England. And you can watch England versus Spain at 11am on Sunday on BBC One or on the iPlayer or listen on BBC Radio 5 Live. We've had a message in from someone saying I was shopping in Totnes on Wednesday. Very nice part of the world.

And at lunchtime, there was an exclusively female exodus from the pub at the end of the game. What was the final score? I asked a woman. 3-1 came the reply. Who to? I urged as I had to leave the commentary

when Australia equalised. England, they cried. I smiled and then an elderly lady passed me on the pavement, grabbed my arm and said, Did England win? Yes, I said. And she and I did a little dance. Such a lovely moment of women celebrating women. Roll on Sunday. What a nicely formed message as well.

Very good. Thank you for that. 84844 is the number to text. Keep getting in touch about anything you hear on the programme. On Monday, in fact, this is an interesting one

for all of you, Listener Week kicks off. This is where your ideas decide what we cover on the programme. We've had some fantastic ideas already and today I want to ask you how you'd like us to cover

the Women's Football World Cup Final. England are in it, as we know, for the second time ever how you'd like us to cover the Women's Football World Cup final. England are in it, as we know, for the second time ever. Would you like us to celebrate a particular player from the tournament? Do you want us to shine a spotlight on your women's club back home? Or do you just want to send us a photo or even, and I will actively encourage this, a voice note from wherever you are watching Sunday's match from? Whatever it is, text us on 84844 or drop us a note on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour.

Yes, how would you like us to celebrate, hopefully celebrate, fingers crossed, the Women's World Cup on Monday? Now, has anyone asked for a pay rise yet? With everything costing more and wages not quite keeping up, maybe it's time we did. In recent months, we've seen a wave of strikes with tens of thousands of workers walking out over pay. Historically, women are less likely to ask for a pay rise, with a recent survey suggesting half of men have asked for an increase compared to 37% of women.

So with summer soon behind us, the school year approaching, maybe we're just spurred on by the energy of the lionesses, but maybe this is the right time to ask for a pay rise. So let's speak to Sharma Dean-Reed, businesswoman and entrepreneur, to get some insight into this. Morning, Sharma Dean. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Always great to have you.

Is there a good time to ask for a pay rise and is it now? I think we are in such a challenging economic environment for both individuals you know we are feeling the squeezes you know on our daily lives but also businesses especially we are seeing so many members of our community reporting that their revenues are down that they're having to lay off staff. And you're seeing it at every level from huge tech companies all the way to small businesses. So while it is a precarious time, I still believe strongly that if you look at your career and you look at where you want to be and you look at the type of work you're doing and you don't feel that the work you're doing is matching your value, then yes, you should ask for a pay rise.

Right. Excellent. So if someone listening is in your value, then yes, you should ask for a pay rise. Right, excellent. So if someone listening is in that position, but just doesn't know how to start, what advice would you give to women in asking for an increase? So what I find is that people tend to spend a lot of time in their pay rise meetings, talking about all of the work that they have achieved in the past and why they deserve that pay rise. Whereas I think if you spend no more than 25% of the meeting talking about what you've achieved and 75% talking about the future,

you're putting yourself in a much better position to help your manager understand how you're going to help them achieve their milestones. I always like to go into any negotiation meeting armed with a whole bunch of data. So that data might encompass what the business milestones are, what the business metrics are, how you've delivered on those metrics, how you're going to deliver on those metrics. And also thinking about public commitments such as gender diversity commitments, any public statements that the CEO has made to commit to women in leadership and helping them understand that your promotion is going to help them achieve both their ideological goals as well as their revenue goals I think is really important. Right so do some research before you even get into the meeting big time like i remember one of my most

star employees did a full presentation deck on everything that she'd achieved based on our okrs quarterly how she'd hit those okrs and then also how she was going to work on the okrs in the future any good investment is really about the future right so think about your manager investing in you it's like what are you going to deliver in the future i also think a little um fun ego thing is try and understand your manager's motivations some managers and leaders ceos they really want a protege or a mentee to be able to impart their wisdom to can you help them understand that you're willing to learn that you want to go on these training courses that you are wanna that you want to actively upskill yourself in order to develop yourself in your role and even researching

courses and saying as part of my promotion I'd also love to go on this executive leadership course for example and then a big big thing that I think always gets missed out in negotiation is talking about how you are going to nurture your team as well and be a mentor to others. So how are you going to be mentored by your leader? But also, how are you going to play a role in the business in terms of being a mentor to the younger ones coming up? I bet there are people taking notes, Sharma Dean. I can almost hear people's pencils through my headphones. It's a big, big thing, right, to go to your manager. It requires confidence. It requires information. It requires you to have scripts. All of these things, I think, really, if you want to negotiate effectively and negotiate your worth you should

go in there with all of the information so that there's no stone unturned of how you're gonna deliver and how you're worth what you're asking for and in case anyone doesn't know what OKR stands for it's objective and key results and we've had some messages coming through 84844 by the way if you want to throw your question at sharmadeen whilst we've got her expert advice here um someone's been in touch to say i love that we're talking about all things pay and salary negotiations i've twice asked for a pay increase at my current organization to reflect taking on more responsibilities wants to be paid the same as a male counterpart um but i've been denied what i found hardest was that it was the same female director that said no

any tips for how to approach the conversation when a fellow woman is the blocker sadly we hear this quite a lot in our community our the stack world community is made up largely of millennial and gen z women and we hear about this this kind of chasm between women whereby maybe older female directors are creating blockages in that leadership path. And I think it's something that we should really think about in terms of building intergenerational relationships, about feeling secure and safe in your role and not that someone's going to take your job. What I think this boils down to really is the idea of women being grateful for what they've been given. So that if that, you know, I don't know the ins and outs of this example, but that one female director feeling that this is

the only seat at the table for me, and there's no more seats here for women, and I've got the one seat. And because I've got the one seat and because I've got the one seat I need to protect that seat and that is something that is a really dangerous it's gonna increase the gender leadership gap in my opinion my advice for that would be to okay if this was me and obviously I probably operate a little bit differently but I would take that person out for a coffee or a lunch and try and understand what is going on behind this decision making. I feel like we tend to forget that people are human in organizations. We tend to forget that, what that individual story of how that person developed themselves in their career, what they've had to go through. I try and have a lot of compassion for older women who have had to work really, really hard to get to where they are, and then look at younger women and possibly feel, oh, they have it easy. They don't know, you know, what it was like. So I would take them out for a coffee, try and understand their motivations. And also always bring it back to what those wider business objectives are if your objective is to hit this key milestone and i am here willing to work with you on that why would that why would

you stop that you know why why would you create this blocker between my advancement and the business objectives so yeah it's hard to comment without knowing each the minutiae of the case but I think it's really about building human relationships and then bringing it back to the wider business objectives I think that's really interesting that you having to have empathy for your boss when you're going in to negotiate I'm just thinking of someone maybe rolling their eyes going I'd take her for a coffee if I could afford to you know what it reminds me of in a really cheesy this is going to be a very niche reference but in clueless do you remember when they great movie reference already yeah go on but they make the teachers happier

in order to get better grades yes that's how she managed to get better grades for everyone because she was like the teachers are miserable so I always try and have empathy for everyone around me from the internal the way to the investor or board member it's what is going on in their lives that is impacting their decision making and how do I help them understand that they need to separate the two things that their emotional experience is actually going to have a negative impact on the business objectives and they shouldn't be so intertwined so yeah i do i do try and lead with empathy where possible so take an apple in um is it important to have a figure in mind i think it's important to have a figure that is not necessarily um you googling other job specs and looking at list of tasks and thinking well I do that task and I do that task and I do that task I think benchmarking in your company is incredibly

important and you know if your company is large enough you should have public pay gap data that you can refer to as well which is always a really powerful tool. If your company, I believe it's over 250 employees right now, there should be some gender pay gap data that you can refer to. But I think having a figure in mind helps your manager triangulate where you see yourself in terms of value, where they see you in terms of value and you know the famous quote is never split the difference and I'm not at all saying about meeting in the middle but it helps them understand where you position yourself in your mind why do you think women are still less likely to ask for a pay rise I know it's a big question there's so many different factors and it also depends on

the background you come from as a woman as well that That can play a huge role in the way it works for you within work. But why do you think we're still less likely? I think it's three things. I think confidence plays a big part. We still hear on a regular basis about loss of confidence or fear of asking for anything or fear of rejection but to me confidence is a muscle that can be taught when exercised confidence is something that when you have information and you have skills you can help build so confidence is the first one the second one is this idea of being made to feel grateful for whatever you've got you know you're you are lucky to be on this team.

You are lucky to be at this company. You're lucky to have gotten to this one degree or you're lucky to be playing football or, you know, this idea of you are privileged to be able to sit at the table with us. I think that that is a huge, huge part of it. Well, that knocks your confidence, doesn't it? Because what they're telling you, they're saying to you is, if it's not you,

someone else will be here. Exactly. So these three things trickle up or down. So, you know, being grateful knocks your confidence or being made to feel grateful knocks your confidence. And then the third thing is role modelling, which is if there were more women in leadership, then you wouldn't feel grateful because it would be normal and you would be able to build your confidence. So if you have women being role modeled at the top, i.e. there are women leaders in your organization that you can see and think, I want to be like them. I see a path to the top here, because I can see it with this person, and being able to build those relationships with the more experienced senior women in your organisation, then you wouldn't necessarily feel grateful for your position,

and it would help build your confidence. So to me, those, those are the three things that I've seen in, you know, talking with 1000s of women over the last two decades as to why they might not feel able to ask for anything. And it doesn't necessarily need to be a pay rise. It might be asking for equal childcare in the home. It might be asking, you know, for someone to not cross your boundaries. It's those things where you need to see other people doing it and share those stories as much as possible in order to be like well if they can do it I can brilliant brilliant advice Sharma Dean thank you so much for speaking to me this morning um lots of you getting in touch on this to share your stories uh Biddy says the first thing a woman should do if she wants to negotiate a pay rise is to join a trade union not sure how you

can have a conversation about women's pay without mentioning trade unions, whose role it is to negotiate wages and conditions. There you go, Biddy. Mentioned. My daughter at 27 recently asked for a pay rise in her marketing role. She pointed out the contribution she'd made to the business and they agreed with her. Even though they don't normally offer mid-year pay rises,

I'm so proud of her and would never have had the confidence or the skills to do that at her age. Go your daughter. Dr. Finnckay says good to know good to acknowledge that a lot of women work in the public sector in banded pay grades we don't have pay rise meetings we move upgrades and bands we can apply to be promoted and thomas emailed in to say i rarely watch men's football usually find it boring but i couldn't wait to watch every world cup women's team They make it so exciting and their skillful talent, prowess, strength, stamina and personalities are thrilling.

They should be paid the same as men, if not extra, because they're worth it. Keep your thoughts coming in on anything you want to share with us this morning. 84844. Talking of role models, imagine being the first woman to travel to the moon. The NASA astronaut Christina Cook is edging closer to that entry in the history books. of role models imagine being the first woman to travel to the moon the nasa astronaut christina cook is edging closer to that entry in the history books she's been chosen as one of the four crew members who will orbit the moon in the spacecraft orion as part of nasa's artemis 2 mission in november next year all going well the artemis program will continue in 2025 as nasa and its partners attempt to land the first woman and first person of color on the surface of the moon.

Well, I spoke to Christina yesterday and asked her about Artemis 2 and what this part of the space program entailed. This will be the first crewed mission of what's called the Space Launch System, which is the rocket and the Orion Space Capsule, which is the deep space exploration capsule that NASA has been developing for some time. And the idea is that we are going to test out all of the systems on both of those vehicles that are for human exploration. So we've proven that the rocket can launch, that the vehicle, the Orion spacecraft can make it to the moon and back. We did that back last year, launching in November and turning the both back to Earth safely. So now we're going to put people on board. We're going to have the displays needed, the life support systems needed, actually things like exercise equipment as well, and just proving out the next step of kind of fidelity for this

mission. Specifically, our mission is about nine days, nine to 10 days long. We're going to spend about a full day doing some high Earth orbits, some extremely high elliptical orbits, which we're also very excited about. And then we're going to hear those words, go for translunar injection. We're going to spend three days going to the moon, do a free return trajectory, kind of loop around the moon and head back to Earth, splashing down in the Pacific. So it's a very, very exciting mission. There's some big milestones there and some things that haven't been done in a long time. Yes, incredible. So you're going to go around the Earth and then go around the moon. So you will get to see the dark side of the moon.

That's right. We'll see the far side of the moon. I hope it's lit though, to be honest with you, because I would love to actually be able to look down on it. Yeah, incredible. So what are you doing at the moment? How are you preparing? Well, our training did start about a month ago. It's been awesome. We are all, you know, nerdy scientists and engineer types and pilots. So we love diving into the technical details. And we've had a chance to do that over the last month or six weeks. We've been meeting the teams that we've had a chance to do that over the last month or six weeks. We've been meeting the teams that we've been working with. We've been learning all about the vehicle, the Orion spacecraft, the operations. You know, we're really designing this mission with the teams together.

And that's been fantastic. And how did you find out you got the job? The three of us that were told by NASA, because we have a Canadian astronaut who actually, you know, he heard the news from his space agency, the Canadian Space Agency. We actually were late, all of us, to the meeting in which we were told about this assignment. And that was hopefully not the way that we want to continue proving our worth to our leaders and to everyone. But, you know, they put a meeting on our calendars, and it was under a different pretense, because this was to be a surprise. And so many of us,

for various reasons, didn't make it to that meeting quite on time. But we walked in, saw our boss and our boss's boss sitting there and realized that we may have been late to the wrong meeting. So it was kind of, it was a little, there was a little comedy there, but yeah, we were, we were asked, how would you like to fly Artemis 2? And I was completely awestruck. I had to take a second to really just sit with that. But a few minutes later, I looked at my leaders and I said, I would be honored. And that's how, that's how we out it was an awesome day. And you know, I think the four of us are just really excited that this is happening and even more excited that we get to be the ones to fly the mission. I mean, absolutely incredible. So when you said you had to sit a

minute, what went through your mind? What were you sitting and contemplating in that minute? I was thinking about the responsibility that comes with that. I was thinking about what an honor it was. I was thinking about how I could rise to that challenge and make the people proud that deserved the best astronaut that they could have in my role. And I think I was also just spending my last couple minutes before the big life change that happens when you accept that kind of a mission assignment. I mean, you're an astronaut. This is the question that we all get asked when we're kids. And quite a lot of us, even if we don't even know what it is, it's the thought of just being able to go to space, go to the moon, and this is your life. What would little Christina say about this?

Well, it's interesting. Little Christina did want to be an astronaut from the time, you know, I was little and I think I just never grew out of it like a lot of people. Around the time I might have been growing out of it, I discovered I love science and engineering and I discovered I loved exploration as well. So I really just held on to that dream. And, you know, I love the David Thoreau quote to live the life that you've imagined. And when I think about what I'm doing right now, it really truly is the life that I would see in my mind's eye for myself when I was little. And that's just a wonderful place to be able to be at. And I feel fortunate every single day for that. But it also

inspires me to really keep trying and bringing my best every single day. So it's an awesome feeling and responsibility. Yeah, what a remarkable achievement. What did it take to get to where you are? How does one become an astronaut? Well, actually, there's a very kind of specific formula that you can be told about that. I'm taking notes. I'm taking notes.

Yes, go ahead, everybody, get your pencils out. I used to go to space camp. I'm taking notes. I'm taking notes. Yes, go ahead, everybody, get your pencils out. I used to go to space camp. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. It's a famous camp where you learn all about being an astronaut and space things that we have here in the States. And I went a few times. And of course, everyone else there was just like me, they wanted to be an astronaut. And there was actually a class you could take about how to become an astronaut. And they literally wrote these things on the board. And I thought in that moment, wow, number one, I should not do these things because I can't compete with everyone around me. And number two, I would never want to achieve this dream that I

held in such high regard if I was just living my life according to a checklist. So I decided then and there that if I were ever to become an astronaut, it would be because I found the things that fulfilled me and followed my own passions. And so I took a very unconventional route. I ended up with a job with NASA when I graduated as an engineer, and I left that perfectly good job to go winter over at the South Pole. And that was a decision many people questioned. I did a lot of work in really remote field camps, kind of going back and forth between instrumentation and engineering for science missions, for space missions,

and working in very remote places. And in the end, the skills I gathered, I think were what they were looking for when I eventually applied. So I tell people we talked a lot more about rock climbing and Antarctica than we did about electrical engineering in my astronaut interview. And I think that goes to show that a lot of the skills that they're looking for really are more around teamwork and contributing and being comfortable in different environments and taking care of the people around you. Wow. Wow. That says a lot about you sticking to your guns and your own instincts.

Maybe that or maybe that I'm stubborn. Yes. So what will your role be? As a mission specialist on the mission, we can take on a lot of things as kind of our little like sub projects that we might lead, I am hoping to be kind of the point person for a lot of the things that we will do in the cruise phase of the mission. So for example, one of the objectives is we're going to sort of transform the inside of the module of the capsule into what we call a radiation shelter so that in the future, they'll know that that would work if there was an instance where they would have to go into that interior mode. So we hope to just sort of divvy up all the different roles that might happen over the course of the mission and in the course of the

planning for the mission. One of the roles I have already is working as kind of the lead for our crew for all the crew provisioning in the vehicle. So that's been really fun. And then supporting our commanders and, you know, being, we talk about leadership and followership at NASA. And So that's been really fun. And then supporting our commanders and, you know, being, we talk about leadership and followership at NASA. And so that's a great skill set that I hope to work on and continue to develop. After the mission, you land back in the sea and there's angels and saints that come and find you. Tell us more about this. Yeah, we do. We land in the Pacific Ocean. It's going to be the longest trip I've ever taken to San Diego. But there's a team, NASA partners with a lot of our defense services

that have some of these really impressive teams and equipment. For example, a giant ship with what's called a well deck so that they can actually bring the capsule into the back of the ship. There's a helicopter team. So they're actually bring the capsule into the back of the ship. There's a helicopter team. So they're actually, and the current plan is to pick us up individually by helicopter after we've sort of been visited by the folks and they've opened the hatch and gotten us out. So it's a whole operation. We were really fortunate. We got to meet all of those teams and tour the facilities and see the equipment that

they're going to be using. So that was exciting as well. And it's a real remarkable thing just how many people are working on this mission and what it truly takes to go to the moon and back and to return to a home planet. It's not a simple thing. I'm sure. Oh, my goodness. Just you saying that, that that's what you're about to do is spine tingling.

But, of course, you know, it's a high risk environment that you're putting yourself into. How do you psychologically prepare for that? I think that actually a lot of that preparation NASA has just become so good at that it comes as part of the territory. Not only are we technically prepared to react to things that really anything that might happen and that in and of itself is reassuring. We're prepared by kind of a standard, almost ritual of preparation. As you get closer and closer, things become more real. You know, at some point I'll try on my actual flight spacesuit that I'll be wearing in the mission and that'll be a new moment where it gets closer and more real. But also one of the interesting skills that we learn as astronauts is resilience. So one of the

ways that I handle the pressure is by remembering that the most important thing is to bring your best, but everyone will make mistakes. And the most important thing is kind of recovering from those and, and being a great teammate and giving it your all. So recognizing that we have that kind of a culture and ethos is something that I think really helps with that psychological preparation because that's the expectation of everyone on the team. Incredible. And you already hold the record for the longest time spent in space for a woman, 328 days.

And in 2019, you and Jessica Mayer were the first women to do an all-female spacewalk outside the International Space Station. That's such impressive stuff. Can you share with us any awe moments that you have had whilst you've been out there, you know, where you might have seen something or even thought of something when you get that perspective on, I'm sure you've been asked this before, perspective on our existence that very few people have had? Well, there's so many different aspects to the perspective that you gain on a mission like that I think to answer this question I just go to that spacewalk with Jessica and the first one we did but maybe not for the reasons people would think it was awesome to do a spacewalk with another woman and to realize that that was the first time collectively we have done that, which is amazing. And to be part of it was even more amazing.

But what people don't know was that spacewalk was actually not planned. Jessica and I did it because something unexpectedly broke and we had to design a spacewalk with the teams on the ground in the course of a week. Normally spacewalks take years to develop. They are choreographed down to the minutia by being practiced in our giant facility on the ground. And we actually figured everything out in a week, executed it. It involved things that weren't a regular part of other spacewalks, like riding the robotic arm and fixing things that had never been repaired before so that was actually the most awesome part when we opened that hatch and two women were outside the space station on a spacewalk and we knew that we had gotten there because we worked

together to figure something out unexpectedly that moment was truly awesome oh magic absolutely wonderful just to hear you share that with us. Now, the plan for Artemis 3 is to actually put the first woman on the moon, and it could be you, Christina, it could be you. How do you feel about that? I would love to walk on the moon, but Artemis 2 and focusing on that and focusing on enabling that next step of walking on the moon is really what I'm thinking about right now. And the fact that we are doing it in this era where we've recognised if we are not exploring for all and by all,

we're really not answering humanity's call to explore. And that's what makes me happy, that we're going to see a representative group of people in this next mission. And that's what really excites me. Inspiring stuff. And we'll be closely following the progress of Christina and the Artemis program. And now a question for all of you, actually, thinking ahead to the future successful moon landing for the first woman. What do you think she should say? What should her first words be?

Get in touch with the program 84844. We've had a tweet from Catherine who says, I was nine at the time of the moon landing I remember saying I wanted to be an astronaut and dad telling me to work hard at school and become one he didn't say you're a girl you can't do this decided against it and became a teacher still love anything to do with space or you'd have particularly enjoyed that interview then um 844 is the number to text I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now, a new study has found that the morning after pill is made more effective when taken with an anti-inflammatory painkiller. Medical academics looked at data from 860 women who accessed emergency contraception in Hong Kong between 2018 and 2022. It found that taking the morning-after pill, combined with a drug used for arthritis pain, prevented 95% of pregnancies, whereas taking the morning-after pill alone prevented 63% of pregnancies. Well, we're joined now by Dr. Janet Barter, President of the Faculty of Sexual and Reproductive Healthcare,

part of the Royal College of the Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, which reviewed the research. Morning, Janet, and welcome to Woman's Hour. Tell us more about the findings of this study. Good morning, Anita, and thank you for having me. Yes, we're really excited by this study? Good morning, Anita, and thank you for having me. Yes, we're really excited by this study. New contraceptive research doesn't come out very often. This was a big study. It was a very well-conducted study, and we think that it potentially can make a difference to women. So what the researchers did was they compared the levonorgestrel emergency contraceptive pill, which is one of the emergency contraception options that we have in this country,

either with a placebo or with paroxicam, which is a specific sort of anti-inflammatory painkiller. And as you say, they found that the combination of the emergency contraceptive pill with the paroxicam was more effective. Do we know why? We can hypothesise why. So these particular sorts of painkillers work by affecting a hormone-like substance called prostaglandin, and prostaglandins are important in all sorts of aspects of our bodies, but we know that prostaglandins do support the process of ovulation. So the emergency contraceptive pills that we have at the moment, and there are two types, both work by delaying ovulation so that the egg is not released until the sperm from the sex that you've already had is not viable anymore.

Now, so that means that both of those two pills can only work if you take it before the process of ovulation has started. But the suggestion with this is that it may work a little bit further on in the cycle and that might explain the extra effectiveness. Now, your organisation's clinical effectiveness unit has reviewed the study. Are there any limitations to it? Yes, there are. So, I mean, the first thing to say, which I'm going to put in now because it's so important,

is that we do have three types of emergency contraception in this country. So there's the levonorgestrel pill, which was the one that was involved in this study. There's another pill called olipristal, which is a bit more effective and can work for a little bit longer in the cycle. And then there's the emergency IUD. So that's what we might think of as a copper coil, which can be inserted up to five days after the sex and which is highly effective for emergency contraception. But like everything with contraception, there needs to be a choice. So we could say the IUD is best for everybody. It's the most effective, but it's not best for everybody. There's some people who may not want it, who may not be able to use it.

So what we are looking at really is for each woman, what's the best method of emergency contraception for her? And for those women that the levonorgestrel emergency pill is best for, could this make it more effective? And could this be available and recommended on the market? It could. It won't be straight away because it's important to understand that this is not a licensed use. So this is a drug that is in use for arthritis, but this is not a licensed use for it. And the dose that was used in this study is different from the dose that's used for arthritis. So we need to do some work producing guidance, making sure it's safe so that clinicians have guidance to use it properly. I'm so sorry. So this drug may not

be suitable for everybody. So there'll be some women that it's not safe to take this for. And also this study was quite specific in that it was women who had only had one episode of unprotected sex before they took the emergency pill. Many women have taken more, so we don't know how that will be. And the other thing that's important is bigger women, the emergency pill is slightly less effective. And in fact, we sometimes give a different dose. And in this study, very few of the women had a BMI of more than 26 or a weight of more than 70. So we're not quite sure how it will fit with our population. So lots of considerations there. But thank you for talking to us about that this morning,

Dr. Janet Barter there. And I'm sure we'll be coming back to that in the future. Now we're halfway through the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And no doubt there have been lots of incredible performances, loads of laughs, perhaps a few cringy moments. But this year, there's a chance to see something a little different. The stand-up comedy scene in Indonesia started emerging around a decade ago. Many of the comedians choose to do their routines in English. And this year, you don't have to travel to Southeast Asia to see them because they're coming to the Fringe. A group of five stand-up comedians are performing in a show called Indonesia Presents Far East Meets West. One of those comedians is Lagwina Hananto and she joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour, Lagwina.

Hi, Anita. What a pleasure talking to you today. Absolutely the same. I feel exactly the same. Now, you are currently in Amsterdam or in the Netherlands? In the Netherlands, yes. How do you feel about coming to the Fringe? It's so exciting. It's like the Mecca for comedians. So it's going to be my ultimate pilgrimage as a comedian. Now, I have to start by telling our listeners that not only are you a successful stand-up comedian, you're also the CEO of a financial training company based in Indonesia. So what inspired you to go from finance into comedy? How does that happen? I think when I turned 40, I thought, oh, well, I'll just do whatever I want.

I'll stop with all of this personal branding. I have to be the serious finance person and embrace the other side of me which is the comedian um i've been doing financial talk for about 20 years now and i realize people are you know a bit uneasy with the idea of talking about money and it's not an easy topic whatever you are and then they become more relaxed and open to talk about finance. And when I joke about it, when I start inserting something funny, silly stories about myself that they can relate. And then I realized, why not take all these little pieces that I usually insert in a financial talk and start a premise and a punchline and then it became like a real proper standard comedy script.

And that's how I started. And you got the bug it's one of those things though Laguna I think I mean I would put myself out there to try most things but stand-up comedy absolutely terrifying you've just got to put yourself out there I'm loving every minute of it and it's like a Clark Kent Superman thing to do you know so during the day I'm a stand- day, I'm a financial trainer. I have my glasses on. I don't look like this.

And then at night, I switch into golden high heels, literally, to sort of switch myself. I'm this other person that I want to do. And loving both career, which are very contradicting to each other. And I think a lot of my social media followers are confused. My clients are also confused right now. Well, we've actually got a clip of one of your shows in Bali. This is you comparing yourself to some beloved children's TV characters. Have a listen.

So there is a law in France. They ban the burkini on the beach. And a lot of people say, that's discrimination. Hold on a minute. I support that law. Have you tried wearing one? It's freaking hideous. It makes me look like Teletubbies.

When my kids were small, they loved Teletubbies. When my kids were small, they loved Teletubbies. And I often wonder why. This show is weird. Maybe they think it look like me. The Teletubbies wear one piece of clothing

from Top Kinto. And the color coordinator one piece of clothing from top to toe and a colour coordinator. So it goes like this. Tinky-winky, dipsy. And my kids are like, Mama! So tell us about your act, because you tell jokes, as we've just heard there, about your life as a Muslim woman, right?

Yes. So I really believe in raising the female voice. I've been listening to Women's Hour in the last hour and just amazed with Dr. Bhatta talking about what's important for women and Christina Koch talking about going to the moon I know imagine if you don't see someone who look like you or sound like you or have the same kind of thinking like you're doing something you don't imagine being able to do it and for me to be able to actually decide I want to be a stand-up comedian it It's also because I saw another lady, her name is Saadia Ma'ruf, she was, I think, back then

BBC's top 200 influential women of the year. And she was like one of the first female hijabi stand-up comedian in our country. I look at her in a show and I thought, I want to do what she's doing. And so

talking about things that matters to me and to her and I think that's what that's why I think what I'm doing is even more important because there are young girls out there thinking what can I do with my life instead of I mean being a provider at home is amazing but your life needs to be important too as a woman as a mother I'm a mother of three and you know I I want other women to look at life as your own personal self not just somebody doing something else for other people yeah and you're inspiring um other women but also you're breaking down stereotypes smashing smashing the glass ceiling um and. And how have you found being a female comedian? Because Indonesia is quite a conservative society.

It is. It's not easy. Imagine going outside your house, getting kept call on a daily basis just because you're female. But now you go on a stage at night, 10 p.m. at night, to say something gut-wrenching. It's not, if you think about it, why are we doing this again? And that's why there aren't so many female stand-up comedians in my country, but being able to do this and get the other women to get around, then we realize that we have our own voice and it gives flavor to the stand-up comedy um scene in our country and it feels amazing to be able to do this together with all the other ladies and i've heard

that you have a strong um female contingent in your audience but not your mom no no i know prepare my parents to come and watch. Not ready. You will see that I don't put a lot of my materials online because a lot of them are not safe. A lot of them are way out of line. They're explicit, sensitive. I talk about my religion. I'm a devout Muslim, like a practicing Muslim. But I like to talk about it to make people rethink of

how we do things and I don't think my parents are ready for that so yeah I will prepare them maybe for next year's standard special. And are you worried about a backlash? I don't think they are ready to understand the meaning of it because you know it's comedy is like going around and do a punchline at the end um but also i discuss it with my brother and people from my mosque who go and see my show and they're also not for their generation um so yeah maybe next year i'll prepare a much safer show for just for just for your mom and dad um and i mean wonderfully you are traveling for your first time in Europe.

You're in the Netherlands at the minute. You're making your way to Edinburgh for the Fringe. Have you had to adapt your act for Edinburgh? I haven't actually thought about it, but doing it in English in a different audience will have to tweak it a little bit. For example, when I do it in Bali with a lot of tourists from overseas coming in, there's a certain flair to it. But when I'm doing it in Jakarta with the Indonesian or expatriates living in Jakarta, then even with the same skit, we need to tweak it a little bit to make it more relatable. So yeah, I'm looking forward to feel it how I'm going to deliver it

in Edinburgh. We are looking forward to welcoming you here as well. How wonderful to speak to you. I've just, I said earlier, we've got an amazing, we've had an amazing lineup of very inspiring women. Lagwina, you are absolutely one of those. More power to you and good luck. Thank you. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. I saw a footprint. I'm Andrew Benfield and I'm obsessed with the Yeti. Join us again next time. I'm going to try to find out. I'll be joined by a good friend. You said we were going for a short walk across the valley. I'm Richard Horsey. This search isn't going to be easy. They have the ability to disappear. Are we chasing phantoms? Yeti, Jesus, you'll never find them.

But in this series, we think we might. Listen to Yeti on BBC Sounds. What's there? who's faking pregnancies. I start, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.