Woman's Hour - Ellie Simmonds: British Paralympian swimmer, Gynaecology waiting lists, Threads, Ukranian Dancers, Meriel Beale,

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

The Paralympic five time gold medallist Ellie Simmonds was born with achondroplasia, the most common type of dwarfism. A new drug currently being trialled in the NHS and now approved for use in the USA aims to help children with achondroplasia grow taller. In a new BBC documentary: A World without Dwarfism, Ellie raises the question if cutting edge medicine can stop disability in its tracks, should we use it? More than half a million women across the UK are on gynaecology waiting lists. This speciality has seen the steepest rise in waiting times in England since the pandemic began – it is now 60% bigger than it was in 2020. The needs of those waiting range from first outpatient appointments, scans, right through to surgery. The BBC’s Health Correspondent Catherine Burns talks through the figures. And Alicia Kearns the Conservative MP for Rutland and Melton also joins Emma.Last night, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky delivered a powerful pre-taped message to the Grammy Awards. He urged musicians to "fill the silence" left by Russian bombs "with your music". At the heart of his plea was to keep Ukrainians and their identity top of people's minds. It has just emerged that The National Gallery has altered the title of one of the painting by Edgar Degas’ paintings from Russian Dancers to Ukrainian Dancers”, after calls by Ukrainians on social media. The painting depicts a troupe of female dancers dressed with garlands and ribbons appearing to reflect the national colours of Ukraine. Mariia Kashchenko, the Ukrainian born founder and director of the Art Unit joins Emma. Over the last couple of weeks we've been hearing about the emotional power of clothes in our series Threads . Today, it's the turn of listener Lucy from Oxfordshire whose very short beaded black dress holds special memories of the day she and her now husband became 'official' . This week the Metropolitan Police announced that actor Noel Clarke will not face a criminal investigation over sexual offence allegations, which he has always denied, because the information given " would not meet the threshold for a criminal investigation." Emma Barnett speaks to Meriel Beale who co-ordinated a letter in the Guardian with 2000 signatures from people calling for reform to the UK film and TV industry after the allegations were made against Clarke. What are women saying to her about power and consent within the UK film and TV industry? Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Catherine Burns Interviewed Guest: Alicia Kearns Interviewed Guest: Mariia Kashchenko Interviewed Guest: Ellie Simmonds Interviewed Guest: Meriel Beale

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. Our first report today concerns how women become mothers and how women and girls are cared for in our health system. Also on today's show, the Paralympic five-time gold medallist Ellie Simmons on her latest fight. As the disgraced comedian Louis C.K. was announced as the winner of the award for best comedy album at the Grammys,

having recently admitted multiple instances of sexual misconduct with female colleagues, we explore what justice looks like. And the latest in our Threads series about clothes that mean the world to us, but we could never been. But first, last Thursday, you may recall, we dedicated the whole programme to the publication of the long-awaited Ockenden Review, the final part of it, into the Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust. The report found repeated catastrophic failures in the quality of care, with mothers and babies suffering over a 20-year period and may have led to the deaths of more than 200 babies and nine mothers

and left other infants with life-changing injuries. Towards the end of my interview with the Minister for Women's Health, Maria Caulfield, who joined me on that programme, and you can hear the whole programme in full, I should say, on BBC Sounds and that interview, there was quite an extraordinary admission. After I asked her if the NHS is a sexist system... In my work across women's health

and the women's health strategy that we're devising, the failure to listen to women seems to be across the NHS, whether it's young women trying to get diagnosis of endometriosis, whether it's mums who are worried about their pregnancy or their baby. So what's your, I'm sorry, I have to push you, Minister, for your time and for ours. Is the NHS a sexist system? I don't think it's a sexist system, but the voice of women is not heard loud enough. And I'm passionate about changing that.

So according to the Minister, not sexist, but women's voices not being heard. Well, today we learn in a BBC News exclusive that gynaecology waiting lists in England have risen by 60% during the pandemic, an increase which is more than any other specialist area of medicine. And of course, solely concerns women and girls. Take this in, more than half a million women across the UK are waiting for services ranging from outpatient appointments, scans, right through to surgery. Shortly, you'll hear from one of the women affected who's suffering and in a lot of pain.

But perhaps you are one of them. And do you agree with the Minister for Women's Health that the NHS is a system that doesn't listen to women's voices, despite perversely, of course, the majority of staff being female. Let me know here. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844, text or charge your standard message rate on social media at BBC Women's Hour is what you need to know, or email me through the Women's Hour website. But let's get our head around these figures

and an idea of how difficult this is at the moment with Catherine Burns, the BBC's health correspondent, who's been looking at these figures and pushing them together. Catherine, good morning. What do the figures show? Morning. Yeah, Emma, so like you said, more than half a million women across the UK, the actual number 570,426. And then if we break it down further using figures from England, if we compare before the pandemic to now, so February 2020, there were almost 290,000 women waiting for help. So there was already an issue. Now, though, that number is up to more than 450,000. It's an increase of more than 60%, like you said, and the scale is the biggest increase of any of the specialties.

But, you know, it's not just that they're waiting, they're waiting for a longer time. So NHS England, it also records how long people are waiting. They say they have a zero tolerance policy on people waiting for more than a year. So back in February 2020, before the pandemic, 66 women were on the waiting list for more than a year. Now that number is approaching 25,000. So that one just takes a minute to kind of sink in really, doesn't it? And then there's another, even another stat, they didn't even used to measure two year waits. They started doing that last April. And there were already 1300 women waiting for gynaecology treatment.

And of course, the impact of those waiting times, tell us a bit more about that, because the numbers are one story, but what's actually going on while you wait? What's the reality? Yeah. So a lot of these women, some people will have conditions that are managed quite well while they're on the waiting list. Others, though, will be dealing with conditions that are really painful and that can get worse while they're waiting. So we're talking about things like pelvic organ prolapse. When your womb or your bladder moves out of place and presses down on the vagina. Fibroids that can cause heavy periods and really intense pain. Endometriosis, again,

a really painful condition. So the most obvious one is the physical impact, the fact that women are waiting and that they are in pain. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, they did a survey of 830 women who were on these waiting lists. More than 75% said that their symptoms got worse while they were on there. They also spoke to their members and their doctors said that, you know, some of them are seeing patients with more complex needs who are in more severe pain. Now, it's hard to prove that waiting lists have made things worse, but one woman I spoke to, she's got endometriosis. She's been on a waiting list for quite some time now. She now is waiting at the age of 46 to have a colostomy bag because her bowel is that badly impacted during the wait.

But there are other impacts too. And these are really important. We can't ignore them. The quality of life. You know, speaking to these women, some of them are so anxious. They can't plan for anything while they're waiting. Many of them have had to give up work. Others say it's ruining their relationships. They can't have a normal sex life. Some of them say that they've got children and they can't, you know, their kids will say, mum, can we go to the

park today? No, we can't. I'm just not well enough. You know, some of them are basically, they say, housebound for a certain amount of time each month. Even basic things, when they go out, they have to think, how far can I be from a loo in case of incontinence or really extreme bleeding. And all this obviously has an impact on mental health because people are living with uncertainty. So again, in that Royal College survey, 80% of the women that they spoke to said their mental health had got worse. I went to meet one woman, Lucy Redding. She's been off work recently for a month because of a flare-up. So she's just there, sitting in her flat, alone and in pain,

and she says sometimes it does make her feel suicidal. She doesn't think she'd ever do it, but sometimes she just wants that pain to go away. I had 36 hours of non-stop stabbing pain that no medication that I was taking was doing anything. By the end of the 36 hours you're exhausted, mentally spent, just wondering what is the point of it all and when is it going to stop? How will it stop? That's where thousands of us are being failed. And there needs to be some services out there for us to help us in the interim, because it's just, it's cruel.

It's cruel to leave somebody waiting there for that long. You wouldn't do that to a dog. We're a great nation who love animals. We wouldn't do that to our pets. Why are we doing it to us? It's just unfair. And there's another impact that we just can't ignore, and that's fertility. So Lucy, she can't have children now. She's waiting for a hysterectomy. And a lot of these conditions, they do cause fertility problems. And obviously, fertility decreases naturally with age.

So another woman I spoke to, she is 38 right now, and she's waiting to have her fibroids removed. Now, she is waiting on a list for that. She has no idea when that surgery is actually going to come through. And in the meantime, she can't go on a waiting list for IVF until that problem is resolved. But she can only go on the waiting list for IVF until she's 40. So she's really in a race against time. In terms of how this is, I mean, there's some very difficult stories to hear there and the reality that you're able to paint with some of your reports. Is this the same if you're looking across Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland? Yeah, absolutely. So it's really hard to compare the actual data because all of the nations measure things slightly differently. But if you crunch down through it, the picture is the same of more women on waiting lists and waiting for a longer time. You know, I got statements from the Scottish and Welsh governments, and they both started with

the exact same phrase, women's health is a key priority for us. So we are hearing that kind of talk. But the reality for a lot of women up and down the UK is that they're waiting for a very long time. And for those listening who are thinking, well, there's waiting lists for all sorts, especially since the pandemic. How does this fit into that? Yeah, absolutely. There are, you know, across England, there are more than 6 million people waiting on waiting lists. And it's going to get worse. You know, some people are predicting that that could rise to up to 12 million. So gynaecology has seen the sharpest increase and numbers were already high. It's not the biggest waiting list. You know, whenever we as health correspondents do these pieces about waiting

lists, we often look at things like cataracts and hip and knee replacements because ophthalmology and ortho, they are the ones that have kind of got the biggest in numbers. But gynaecology is the only one that looks at half the population. Which is why there is a concern that there is this system that perhaps is sexist, there's a structural issue, there are those sorts of concerns. What's being said about what needs to be done to change this in those you've been talking to? Yeah, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists,

they've come out really strong on this. They have said that gender bias is at the core of this and that women's voices are not being listened to and they're not being given the priority that they need. So they're not saying, you know, when the NHS is looking at priorities, they have got a huge amount of people and they do quite rightly put people who are at conditions that are going to kill them first. That's obviously the way it should be. And no one is saying that women should have greater priority than, for example, cancer patients, but it's about giving them the same priority that everyone else across the NHS gets.

One thing that the Royal College feels quite strongly about is the term benign gynae. So that's the way that these conditions are classified, gynecological conditions that are not cancer. They're really against that word now because they're saying, yes, this isn't something that's going to kill these women, but they are living with conditions that are affecting their quality of life. We're asking them to live with pain for a long time. We're asking them to impact their fertility.

So they want that to be seen. They want that to be addressed and women's voices to be heard as we start to recover from the COVID backlog. And those issues are supposed to be seen in the round and what those things, if they are left, can then lead to. Catherine Burns, the BBC's health correspondent, thank you for taking us through that and bringing us that story. Well, I should say we did invite a member of the government on,

especially, of course, from the Department of Health, but no one was available. We do have this statement from NHS England. A spokesperson said staff are making progress on dealing with the COVID backlog, with the latest data showing staff delivered more than half a million more test checks and procedures in January compared to the same month last year,

while average waiting times for elective treatment are down by more than six weeks on their peak in the pandemic. So, as has been the case throughout the pandemic, please come forward for care if you have any concerns. A message that's, of course, very important, but tempered by the reality of how it is to try and get care at the moment. As I say, not able to speak to a member of the government, but Alicia Kearns, the Conservative MP for Rutland and Melton, also a member of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and visited Ukraine earlier this year because towards the end of this conversation we touched on that,

was able to join me just before coming on air. I asked her about the ongoing conflict and, of course, about reports of rape being used as a weapon of war. But first, I got her reaction to this news that gynecology waiting lists have soared by 60% during the pandemic. I think unfortunately it confirms what I said in the chamber the other day which is that I have concluded sadly over my two and a half years of being an MP that within the NHS bureaucracy it is inherently sexist. Time and time again, women's healthcare is under-supported, undervalued, and women are somehow expected to get on with things, despite

the fact that maternity care is incredibly important and incredibly complex. I mean, of course, this isn't just maternity in this instance. This is across women's health. And for some, they'll be thinking, well, we've got to prioritise cancer. We've got to prioritise other things. But some of these issues, such as fibroids, are very important to look at because they can then lead to the diagnosis of cancer. Absolutely. Fibroids, endometriosis. There are women who are waiting for hysterectomies, who are in pain every single day. There are women who are waiting for treatment so they can be fertile and they can go on and have the families they want. Look, there is

nothing kind of add-on, additional bonus, complementary to women's health and women's healthcare. This is absolutely fundamental. And what I'm really relieved about is that Sajid, the health sector, has made this one of his priorities going forward. He is determined to sort out issues of maternity to women's health. He wants gynaecology to be given the same focus as comparable specialities. And he wants to make sure that the funding is in place. And he's announced that now. And yet when you say the NHS and its systems are sexist,

when I had Maria Caulfield on, who is the minister with women's health as her portfolio, and asked that exact same question, she said no. I think Maria and I are going to have to disagree on this. But, you know, the fact that for two and a half years, most of that was during the pandemic, I had to fight for women to be allowed their partners in the room. The fact that there are these conversations about a normal birth, as Sajid said the other day, there is no such thing as a normal birth,

just a safe birth. Time and time again, we see women's health care being put to the bottom of the agenda. People don't take it seriously. People don't think they need to actually invest in support that people have. People think it's just a complaint and that because women have, you know, survived for decades and generations without women's health being put on a platform that it needed to be. And the same with birth, that somehow it doesn't need investment. You know, that is what we are seeing from nhs bureaucrats women's health care puts a bottom pile and as we have seen as a

result children have died women have been have women have died it is not acceptable and when you say nhs bureaucrats it's important to understand if you if you're talking about a system being sexist are you saying individuals have created this? Who are you talking about? Because, of course, perversely, the majority of the staff in the NHS are female. I'm not talking about the doctors and the nurses and the consultants and the clinicians. I'm talking about those bureaucrat, middle management and senior NHS trust leaders who time and time again put in place illogical rules when it comes to maternity and don't invest in it. And that is the problem. It is not the people on the ground face to face with women. Well, it might be.

We have heard reports of things that have been said by individual clinicians that are around pain management, coping with things, women not being listened to. Because what Maria Caulfield did say, she didn't say it was sexist, the NHS or the systems systems she said women's voices are routinely not heard that's going to also be on the ground it's not just going to be these bureaucrats as you describe them. So I think there are absolutely individual clinicians who will be a problem I agree I think the bureaucratic system itself is inherently sexist but of course there are individual clinicians

you know my mum talked to me about the fact that when she had been in labor with my brother for many hours um she asked for an epidural and the clinician's response wasn't to have a discussion with her about it he raised his voice and shouted at her and said you think you're special women have gone through childbirth for generations and they haven't needed this you don't need this what are you on about you know there will absolutely be the bad eggs there always are and yes women's voice are silenced far too often but i think the inherent sexism that sees women's and health services women in maternities health services downgraded or not given the investment they need that sits with bureaucrats within the system and you think they are deliberately prejudicing against women? I think they have a choice to make and it comes to making their choices,

whether or not they mean to do it, whether or not it is a conscious decision. It is always maternity and women's health services that end up being downgraded. Why is it women's health services have got the most sharpest increase in waiting times? I think it is always seen as an additional, a plus one, and it is always given the least funding within NHS trusts. I don't think you'll find many NHS trusts where maternity and women's health services aren't given the least funding of the pot of funding they receive. We've had a Conservative government for more than a decade now.

You say you have faith in the current health secretary, Sajid Javid. We've had quite a few health secretaries. Why should anybody trust the government, this government, to sort this out? Because what Sajid has done is he has announced that he's putting in place a women's health strategy for the first time ever. We'll be one of the leading countries in the world to have a women's health strategy. He is going to make sure... Doesn't mean it's any good.

Well, there was a massive consultation. There was an enormous response from the public. I know that we've seen from Saj in the past in his work that he delivers on his promises. And the fact is, this is a women's health consultation that will then determine the strategy. So the good thing is that so many people responded. He's also put the money in. You know, he's invested, I think, £127 million for maternity

and he's got another £95 million just to get us more midwives and consultant obstetricians. And again, on Occedon... It's not just... I mean, those things we've talked about and they are very important to bring up and you're right about the public consultation as well.

I remember we did a special programme on it with the then health minister, Nadine Dorries. But it's not just about getting more midwives, for instance. It's about ensuring those who are there want to stay, those with the experience. And this is what I'm talking about with trust and whether this government is the one that can be trusted to get this right. I'm also minded to bring up today, it's been confirmed that number 10 staff are among the first group of people to receive a fixed penalty notice from the Metropolitan Police in connection with the Partygate scandal. How can women trust your own government during a health scare,

a huge pandemic that the world has been facing, if the staff running the ship, as it were, are willing to break the rules they set? Well, I'm not sure we should be conflating the two things. It's about trust. Well, no, it's about trust, but they're very different things. This is about delivering on a policy promise. And as again with Sajid, we have seen, he has said that he's going to deliver every recommendation

in the Occam's report. I'm not including you in this, but the people setting the policy, sat in number 10, are partying on the eve of Prince Philip's funeral, the karaoke machine, during a lockdown. It's not a good look if you're trying to say to women, in particular at this moment, trust us, we've got your back.

Look, I've been very clear that I was very angry about Partygate. I continue to be angry about Partygate. Sajid and his health ministers have nothing to do with Partygate. And I trust absolutely that Sajid's focus is on A, delivering the investment we need, B, making sure the services improve, C, making sure that those responsible for the death of all those children at Ockerton get held to account, and D, making sure that for once we become a leading country when it comes to women and maternity care. May I just finally ask you, Alicia Kearns, you do speak to what is going on in Ukraine with many of your links and areas of focus having been turned to that in the last few weeks or so. The UK's ambassador to Ukraine, Melinda Simmons, we had her on the programme not very long ago, has tweeted saying, rape is a weapon of war, though we don't yet know the full extent of its use in Ukraine. It's already clear it was part of Russia's arsenal.

Women raped in front of their children, girls in front of their families as a deliberate act of subjugation. Rape is a war crime. What is your reaction to those strong comments from our ambassador? And have you confidence in any way, shape or form we could ever see Putin in The Hague. I agree with Melinda entirely. And I have been talking about and trying to raise awareness of the use of weapon, rape as a weapon of war by Putin and his appalling band of bandits across Ukraine for the last few weeks. Women are being raped, men are being raped, children are being raped. It is absolutely a calculated use of rape. They are using it to try

and intimidate and scare the population. And if I'm frank, because they are thugs and it is a war crime, we have to collect the evidence. We have to make sure that every single commander of those troops who are committing sexual crimes or war crimes are held to account. I want to see Putin in The Hague, whether we will get there or not is another question, but I want to see every single one of his commanders brought up before the court. And I want to see those women, men and children in that court facing down those who hurt them

and getting the justice they deserve. The Conservative MP, Alicia Kearns. Well, also just to say to that point, on tomorrow's programme, I'll be joined by Baroness Helich, who will talk more about how sexual violence is used as a weapon of war and what's going on in Ukraine. She worked as a Conservative life pair with Angelina Jolie and William Hague when he was the Foreign Secretary to launch the UK's Global Sexual Violence Initiative in 2014.

But keeping with Ukraine, last night Ukraine's President, Vladimir Zelensky, delivered a powerful pre-taped message to the Grammy Awards. He urged musicians to fill the silence left by Russian bombs with your music. Ukraine's president, Vladimir Zelensky, delivered a powerful pre-taped message to the Grammy Awards. He urged musicians to fill the silence left by Russian bombs with your music as he pushed it. And at the heart of his plea was to keep Ukrainians and their identity top of people's minds. Well, it's just emerged that the National Gallery has altered the title of one of the paintings by Edgar Degas, From Russian Dancers to Ukrainian Dancers, after calls by ukrainians on social media the painting depicts a troop of female dancers dressed with garlands and ribbons appearing to reflect the national colors of ukraine well joining me now maria

kashchenko the ukrainian-born founder and director of the art unit maria good morning morning thank you for being with us today. Tell us about this painting, if you could describe it, of course, because we're on the radio, but also this has been something people have been calling for for some time, is that right? I suppose so. I haven't really heard that much about this particular painting, but I know that Ukrainians have been kind of starting conversations about that before the war, and the painting looks just like there are three girls dancing in a field and they're kind of dressed in a traditional Ukrainian dress.

And as you said, the ribbons kind of symbolize the Ukrainian flag. And why is this an important move to rename it? Well, I think that there has been an umbrella term of Russian art that has been used for all countries like the post-Soviet Union states or the Russian Empire states. every state that was in the Soviet Union has its own cultural heritage and it's important to celebrate Ukrainian heritage rather than Russian heritage and being like the actual Ukrainian heritage. And being distinct as it were within that.

Yes, of course. And making the change now of course is a very prominent moment to do so. How important do you think these small things are, I suppose, when they add up to thinking about the Ukrainians as a people? I think it's very important because it all comes together. It's kind of, you know, like different bits of one picture

that has to kind of, the Ukrainian identity has to be celebrated and it doesn't have to be named Russian identity. So I think it's one of the first steps towards that. Yes. And I was also, you know, it's very striking last night to hear President Zelensky talk about what Ukrainian musicians are doing right now. Instead of wearing, you know, their finest attire and donning, you know, wearing their guitars, they're at war. Yes, yes.

And to think like that. A lot of them. And you're also talking, I know, to lots of artists as well and keeping in touch. What are you hearing from them at the moment? Yeah, so like the art unit, we have 23 Ukrainian artists and I'm in touch with are you hearing from them at the moment um yeah so like the art unit we have 23 ukrainian artists and i'm in touch with all of them and um some of them had to flee their home for the second time because some of them were living in donetsk before and then 2014 they had to leave that area and now they have to leave kharkiv kiev and everything and um obviously

they're heartbroken uh and uh heart're heartbroken and they continue to produce art because that's how they respond to the reality but obviously it's hard and I think they're trying to do their craft but it's like they had to flee their studios, they had to flee their artworks, some of them managed to take some of their artworks with them but not all of them because obviously you can't, when you're evacuating from a city, you can't take 20 plus canvases

with you. No, of course and also, you know, how this war has affected the museums as well and how Yeah, of course. They had to evacuate all of the museums in Kharkiv and Kiev and other places. It's sort of these things in the midst of reports which stand out in a weird way, things you can relate to, where you think of empty museums, you think of artists not being able to paint, musicians what people in the cultural field in the UK can do. But people in Ukraine just can't at the moment. Yeah, yeah.

And just finally, because I think, you know, being able to think of a painting that is actually not on display, I understand this particular one going back to the Degas painting at the National Gallery. Do you think we'll see other things like this, that there will be other moves to distinguish Ukrainian culture? I think so. I think it's kind of like the wrong time, but it's for the right cause. I think more and more Ukrainian cultural heritage will be shown in the UK and in the global world. And not just art, but also music and theatre. Because I think every nation has its great heritage and I think we will see more and more of this. Yes, and of course, as you say, people wanting, not wanting to, but feeling they have to try and keep creating. And what they're creating from at the moment will be extraordinary as well. 100%.

Thank you very much, Maria Kashchenko, Ukrainian-born founder and director of the Art Unit. Well, I've just been joined in the studio by the Paralympic five-time gold medalist, Ellie Simmons. She, of course, was born with achondroplasia, the most common type of dwarfism. A new drug is being trialled in the UK that's now approved for use in the US and Europe, which aims to help children with the condition to grow taller. In a new BBC documentary, A World Without Dwarfism, Ellie is exploring the question that if cutting edge medicine can stop disability in its tracks,

should we embrace it? Ellie, good morning. Good morning. And I wanted to start by asking why you wanted to make this film, because, of course, you could have just put a statement out. Yeah, I think it's different, isn't it, when you're watching something and being part of that journey. And for me, when I found out about this drug and heard about it,

saw it on newspapers and talked about in the dwarfism community. You have that one side of the story and it's your own. But when you start the journey, finding out from where I started and meeting so many different people, individuals on the drug and on the trial in Britain and on it in America, it's been passed by the FDA. So it's access to all in America where here it's just on trial, America as it's been passed by the FDA. So it's access to all in America, where here it's just on trial, people against it. It's just, yeah, I think you can get a bigger picture. And when people are watching it, they can get their own and make their own decisions and be part of that journey. Whereas if you put it on a piece of paper, it's, yeah, that story's not told.

And in terms of your issue with this, I mean, I summarised it very briefly there that it aims to help children, this drug, grow taller. There are other things that come along with that. But at its heart, what's your problem with. What can it do? To be honest, it's a drug that's quite new. I think it's only been in America for a couple of years. And over here, it's on trial. And I think sometimes when there's something new come around, and especially in the dwarfism community and in wider population in the country, in the world, it's scary. But there is, I suppose there's always that, but there's a bigger question that you're keen to look at, isn't there? Why is this drug needed in the first place? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like you can see me, I'm small. That's the only issue really. But the opportunities that I've had being dwarf, having the condition with dwarfism is I've been able to represent the country I've been able to go to four Paralympic Games many opportunities and for me it's like why why is this drug needed there's so many other reasons why is Biomarin why is the companies why are they focusing their their their money their efforts on something that doesn't need to be cured when they can put it on other things such as wider issues in the world but I suppose for for some of those that you met they they felt and the parents that they could live a better life if they blended in more and I'm paraphrasing some of what people

said but they they haven't perhaps had the same experiences that you have had not without great work I should say from your perspective but you you understand I suppose from some people's point of view they want that option yeah no and and that and shouldn't we celebrate that that there is that choice now um and yeah like you said I've been quite tunnel visions I've had very since 13 representing my country I've been known as Ellie Simmons the swimmer um represented um so many different yeah um the country and things and I'm celebrated for who I am where you see the likes of Will other individuals that still even to this day they're getting recognized they're getting pointed out they're getting photographed on the street and so there is that that there's

that different side of the story in a sense and I think hopefully watching this documentary you see that and yeah maybe they see that parents um who have got found out their child has a chondroplasia this drug is is is a way of controlling that a way of making sure that that child doesn't grow up with the pointing out, the laughing at. And yeah, it's that control. And it is there. It's going to be, it's not going to be, it's a drug now that it's not going to go away. And I think one of the things that we need to do, and maybe that's a role on my shoulders

and other individuals with dwarfism and different disabilities out there in the media, on the streets, is educating individuals that it's amazing to be different and it would be so boring in society if we were all the same. And hopefully the likes of this documentary, that it can show that we are all different and we don't need bad name-calling, horrible things. Just let us get on in the world. So where it sounds like you've come down to

is that you wish this wasn't necessary because you wish society would change enough to allow people to be different and live a life free of taunts. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that education for all, for everyone to be aware that everyone is different. And, yes, there's some disabilities that you can see, some that aren't, that are hidden.

But for us as a society to be accepting that maybe these parents, these individuals, wouldn't choose this drug because that's the only way out. In the film, one part of it, you talk to your dad on the phone about how he would feel today if he was offered this option and this drug. Yeah, yeah. And it was great to see his side of the story.

It's like your parents, they're the ones that you look up to, don't they? They're the ones that you trust. And especially the likes of my mum and dad. My dad, I speak to him for anything and all advice. And it's great to hear his point of view. But also... And what did he say for those I know it's not the whole film but can you give us an insight yeah I think it's just

do you know I can't I can't remember what he said but um I think it was just more of the fact that it's there it's choice and I think I am what I am and I don't think he would have taken anything or given me anything and to change who I am and I'm quite I'm happy I'm healthy and that's all yeah that's all I need really and when when we were younger as as individuals with dwarfism you go to the hospitals for checkups regularly you get the likes of when I was around as a kid and leg lengthening growth hormones like straightening all that type of things and this wasn't a choice at the time but when my parents got those those choices they they decided straight away not to take them and I'm I'm glad they didn't. And what would you say to anyone listening who who is struggling at the

moment to to go about their their daily business how have you coped what what toolkit did you rely upon? Well I'm I've since a younger age really I've been um brought up in a community like myself like individuals with dwarfism you've got the dwarf sports association you've got a restricted growth little people UK and having that community and identity really really helps because you've got people similar to you like you learn so so much like I remember when I was a kid I looked up to so many individuals who are older with dwarfism and I was like, oh, they can drive. Education on things like periods, just everyday stuff.

And it's that individuals to look up to and to talk about. That also came up, didn't it, with one woman, the issue of personal hygiene, tampons, all sorts of problems that can sometimes come up and how to deal with that. Yeah, yeah. And I think that happens for all women, doesn't it? But also the likes of, yeah, like myself with short arms, short legs, you need to have someone to talk to about it. And how can you adapt and speaking to people about it is a great source of finding out for yourself, isn't it? And I think like we always say with anything, talking about it is a real, real help with everything. I mean, this is what I do for a living. Yeah, yeah.

I have a big old fat. But of course, you and your, what we've known you for, you have retired from competitive swimming. Yeah, yeah. So are you missing it? No, not really. No, I don't I think you know when you don't miss it it's the right time to to call call it a day like I've had so many amazing opportunities and I achieved what I did but now I'm yeah I don't miss the early starts I don't miss the wet hair the costumes and all that type of stuff and now it's like I'm 27 and I'm looking at all the

other opportunities that I can take because yeah my my life and I knew what swimming was all about that was my comfort zone really and it's now like stepping away from that and finding out what I want to do next well and I suppose with this film as well finding your voice and talking about things with a bit perhaps with a bit more freedom I don't know yeah exactly and I think for me finding out for people to realize that I'm not just a swimmer I'm a human being I'm a woman too and in this documentary you see when I'm putting on the the wetsuit and I'm having the laugh and that's me that's who I am that's my personality and hopefully people now can see me away from the sport and away from swimming yeah that's always going to be a massive part of my life and I I love the sport and I love what it

can give to people not just on a Paralympic level but all different levels swimming is a life skill but now seeing the different side and the things like dwarfism and talking about things like that and other passions in my life and exploring those other opportunities. Well, I wish you all the best. It's a very powerful film indeed. I just wanted to ask because swimming is of course something you'll always be so connected to and you'll be very aware of this. But much of the conversation about women's sport in the media at the moment is also about fairness regarding the inclusion of trans competitors. And swimming has been in the spotlight in particular after Leah Thomas became the first known transgender athlete to win the highest US national college title

with victory in the women's 500-yard freestyle, having previously swam for the men's team. Do you believe it's fair that those who are born biologically male should be able to compete in women's categories? To be honest, I think sport is sport, isn't it? It's for all. And I think the individuals higher up, they make the decisions. I think all we can do as humans and in the sport is just celebrate them for being part of the sport, part of swimming, part of cycling, all those different sports. And just, yeah, sport is for all and let's celebrate that. I suppose it's the concern that, you know, particularly with women, maybe they're missing out on a spot in a particular team

if it's going to somebody who had been previously on the men's team and the unfairness between that. Does that concern you as now someone who's talking more about what you think? Yeah, I totally get that. Again, it's a tricky situation, isn't it? And I think until you're that athlete in that situation where you can speak out, and I think sport and especially women's sport, they've got the voices now and athletes do have voices to speak out when they feel that... Not a lot of them are on this, are they? Pardon, sorry. Not a lot of them are on this. There's been concerns that it's only when you leave, perhaps, about all sorts of issues that you can use your voice and that there is a climate of fear around this particular topic.

Yeah, I think, and also athletes as well. I know when I was in those shoes, you're just very focused. You're just doing your sport every single day and you're just focused on yourself. So sometimes the wider issues or the wider things that in the news you don't really take them in and you don't feel that yeah you you talk about it because at the end of the day you're just got one job to do and that's to represent your country and I think you said you said it something very powerful ever saying you

know that other people make those decisions higher yeah yeah and you would hope perhaps that they are making the decisions that work for you being so focused yeah i'm sure and that that's the ones you can trust isn't it and hopefully athletes out there they trust those individuals higher up the other ioc ipc all those organizations and ngbs that they trust that they're making that right decision for the end of the day for sport. Do you still like swimming? Yeah, I do. Can you get in and actually enjoy yourself or do you immediately start competing? No, I actually get pretty bored.

And that's why it's nice to try a range of different sports and I'm loving group exercises and opportunities. I did a boot camp class last Monday and I was aching from Monday Tuesday and Wednesday and but yeah swimming I probably go like I haven't been actually for about two weeks I go for about 20 minutes and I have to get out because I'm so bored do people move away they're like I don't want to be I don't want to be competing I don't want to be in the lane next to you I chat and like I don't know I'm looking at from a different point of view

now I look at people's strokes and I think oh how can I improve their strokes like sometimes I at the end of the lane I say oh just if you tilt your head a bit and lower and don't go full reach and things like that and they're like oh thank you ever so much like so I'm giving them like coaching tips just because now it's like it's a way of entertaining myself while in doing the sport is looking at different individual strokes and seeing how I can prove it. But for me, what I realized is now swimming and sport is a mental health thing. Like it's for me when I when I've got loads of things on my mind and I go for a 20 minute swim and it really helps me think about things because you've got no phones. You've got no others. It's just you and your mind and your sport going up and down the pool.

And yeah, it's sometimes pretty boring looking at the bottom of the pool. But it's so like the mind. Are you the cold water swimming? Are you doing that as well or not? To be honest, no. That's what I've been told. Anyone who likes swimming, everybody's going to do that. I know.

Give me an indoor pool or give me the likes of the Indian Ocean, hot sea, hot ocean, but I'll go swimming, no, I'll leave it to those individuals. On that we can fully agree. Ellie Simmons, thank you so much for talking to us. The documentary, a new BBC documentary is called A World Without Dwarfism and it's fascinating

to hear the kind of thinking behind that. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. It is out tomorrow on BBC One at nine o'clock. Now, over the last couple of weeks, we've been hearing about the emotional power of clothes in our series, which is called Threats. It's clear women's wardrobes and the length and breadth of the UK are stuffed with items or perhaps, you know, in a drawer at the back with items of clothing we just can't bear to part with. And today I'm joined by one of our listeners, Lucy,

who's in Oxfordshire. Good morning, Lucy. Morning, Emma. Let's start with the dress. I believe it's a dress. Do describe to us. So it's a black sort of silk and beaded number. It's quite short and with long sleeves and a lot of beading around the neck and beading around the cuffs. And it's fabulous. Tell me when this comes from. How old were you? What was it bought for? What were you doing?

So I was 21. So I just left uni. And a man friend from uni at the time, who I was sort of seeing, dating, had asked me to go to a family Christmas ball. And I panicked because I had nothing to wear. So my much more fashionable friend took me shopping, took me right out of my comfort zone with this beaded black dress.

And so, yeah, wore that to this ball where I was introduced as just Lucy, my friend from uni. It was very awkward. And then about halfway through the night, he sort of said, oh, we need to go outside. We need to have a talk. And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, this is not the place to have this discussion about the like, are we boyfriend, girlfriend?

And he asked if I could be his girlfriend. And the rest is history because now we're married and we have a daughter. And so was I happily ever after. And also, I know I need to dwell on the dress and the associations with that, but a family Christmas ball. Great. I mean, where do I go for one of those? They sound wonderful. I mean, it was fantastic. Totally out of my comfort zone, if I'm honest. But it was absolutely brilliant. If you ask members of his family about what happened, the story gets more extravagant each time. So I think the latest was that we met at the ball

and he proposed on the spot and it just gets, yeah. Brilliant. Well, I love it. And this, I mean, beads quite difficult, can catch, things can catch on it, can pull. Is it still in good nick? Did you wear it again afterwards? I have worn it again. It's still in really good condition.

It's just I think it's a little short now. It's the only problem. That can happen. Maybe black tights, black leggings, whatever. You could make it work. Are you going to pass this on or is this something that's going to sort of hang like a museum piece forevermore? I'd quite like my daughter to wear it at some point,

but maybe not as fancy dress, because I think it's probably, she'd probably just destroy it. So maybe when she's a bit older and she could wear it as some sort of vintage number somewhere. You know, when you look at it, does it take you back to that particular moment? Because I think that's the power that we're hearing from so many of these stories. It just transports you straight back. Yeah, definitely. As soon as I see it, I'm 21 and I'm nervous at the corner of the room desperate for a glass of wine to sort of take the edge off and and and then of course you you know I love the way you're like yeah he asked me and then the rest is history we're together I mean

you sort of skipped all romance there is that because is that because you don't want to go into too many details here about what happened next um we just went back to the ball and carried on like of course of course well i i think you do need to wear it one more time when i was asked what it was for this particular thread i went to this series i went to a skirt i've not worn since i was 18 because i keep promising myself i will wear it again so so perhaps if you will i will we'll try it i think we should we should do it okay lucy thank you so much lovely to talk to you there some memories of a very important dress uh with beads all over it.

And some of you will now be thinking of those that are hanging up or stuff somewhere else. And I have to say many messages getting from you this morning with regards to our beginning story this morning, our top story about these waiting lists specifically in gynaecology and that word benign not being used as much anymore. We were hearing from our health correspondent, but a message containing that word from a GP saying, I'm a GP. Gynecology services were poorly funded in Manchester before the pandemic. Women at risk from quote unquote benign conditions, fibroids, endometriosis. My gynecology consultant colleagues, mostly women now, feel unheard and ignored. So we're talking about women's voices and who's hearing them. Another message here that's just come in now about threads and clothes. When I was at secondary school, my mum spent two or three years of evenings

knitting a big brown cardigan with a complicated stitch for my dad. It became a family joke that it would never be finished. By the time that it was, it wouldn't fit. Neither of my parents are with us anymore, but the cardigan is in my wardrobe and I'm 65 this week. I think I may start to wear it once I reach the little old dear stage, says Jane.

Thank you for that. And so the messages keep coming in on 84844. Now, you may recall in 2021, to go to something else completely different, the Guardian newspaper published allegations of misconduct from 20 women who had worked with the actor Noel Clarke. The incidents included complaints of groping and sexual misconduct between 2004 and 2019. He has vehemently denied sexual misconduct or criminal behaviour. And last week, the Metropolitan Police announced that Noel Clarke will not face a criminal investigation because the information does, quote, not meet the threshold for a criminal investigation. At the time allegations were made against him,

2,000 people signed an open letter to The Guardian calling for reform in the UK film and TV industry, giving other examples of sexual abuse and harassment. That letter was coordinated by Mariel Beale, a freelance TV producer and anti-bullying officer for the Broadcasting Entertainment, Communications and TV Union, BEC2 as it's known. So what are women saying now about power, consent and the need for reform in the UK TV and film industry? Mariel Beale, good morning. Morning Emma.

I just must make clear, first of all, Noel Clarke is not facing a criminal prosecution, but could I get your response to the Met's decision not to prosecute? I mean, I can give you one of the women who, one of the 20 women said that it's OK to say that she's disappointed. I think that's OK to pass on that. I think the response has been generally that women are disappointed in a more general way. It's not just about that case. It's because in other areas of the industry, it's known that there are people who are still problematic, who are causing problems for women still working in the industry, and that nothing

has been done about them. And I suppose if we move away, as you just started to from this case, and I should at this point say, Woman's Hour has tried to contact Noel Clarke for a response and he had previously given a public statement saying he vehemently denied sexual misconduct, but apologised if, quote, his actions have affected people in ways I did not intend or realise. What are the routes at the moment that people are exploring,

if any, to try and redress issues in the workplace and those they work with? Well, things are changing. Things are getting better. So, you know, let's be positive. But in the first instance, we have this sort of informal network where everybody talks to each other. And that's one of the reasons I wrote the open letter in the first place, because I had so many stories, not about him, but other people. It seems that these instances have become normalised, but they're not normal. They've become accepted, but they're not acceptable. And that really, really shocked me.

And women were saying about how it had triggered memories of things that had happened to them that they'd laughed off a long time ago. But they're saying if it happens now, they wouldn't be laughing it off now. So I feel there's been a real shift in women's thinking, which is great. And it means that, you know, there are places they can go to, such as Beck 2, the film and TV charity. There's also other campaigners like myself, like TV Mindset, all sorts of organisations that have sprung up. Yes, and I think it's also relevant to bring up

that last night the comedian Louis C.K. won a Grammy for Best Comedy Album. And you may recall he stopped performing in 2017 after he was accused of multiple instances of sexual misconduct, which involved him exposing himself and masturbating in front of several female comedians and writers, so women he was working with, and he admitted it.

What did you make of that? Yeah, I mean, I think I was really taken aback by that this morning. I think, you know, I work with a lot of comedians, male and female, they're all going to be shocked by that. It sends a message, doesn't it? Men tend to fail up, and I think that maybe there's been rumblings recently that the Me Too movement has gone too far. But I think things like that show that it hasn't. Well, I suppose he performed several gigs with the word sorry behind him. And some were at least happy is the wrong word, but they thought it was good that he had admitted it and apologised and then talked about that in a sense of by admitting it.

Do you think do you think that those sorts of awards can never happen for somebody like that again? And I'm not interested in cancelling people particularly. And I'm not. I think that most women most women in fact want they don't want to ruin people's careers they don't want to bring people down what they want is to be listened to at an early stage when things have not escalated and I suppose what's unique about your not unique totally but what's what's particular in your industry in the film and tv world and this extends to somebody like Louis CK because some people will be listening to this thinking how could he have done that with people he was working with, with contemporaries?

And we don't know all the details, of course, but it's because they're famous a lot of the time or they have huge amounts of power that create a situation where when you're in that situation, you may react one way, but afterwards you look at it completely differently. Yeah, it's really important to talk about this because we have to remember that, certainly for TV, it's largely a freelance industry. People are constantly looking for their next jobs, constantly worried about their next jobs. You're only as good as your reputation. It's all on who you know, et cetera. A lot of people put up with these things

because they think, you know, I've only got two weeks to go on this. I might as well just be quiet and put up with it. And power is mainly men who are still in positions of power. Obviously, there are lots and lots of brilliant men in the TV industry who are nurturing and kind and mentor people. But at this point, until we get that power to be more balanced, these things are going to keep happening. We have a split second to make a decision when these things happen to us as women.

Not only are we deciding in that second what we can do about our own wellbeing, but if it's in a professional capacity, we're also deciding what it's going to do for our career. So if a man who's famous who does something to you you're making a lot of decisions in a very short space of time you talked about a change amongst the women to focus on the positive and the way that they are now lots of them now realizing something's not okay do you think there has been a change amongst the men i do and i think um it's

fantastic to see the men that signed the open letter. It's fantastic to see people that have come forward and offered support. I think that we need to see more brilliant men standing up for us and being aware of these things, because often the problematic people are operating in plain sight. Lots of people know about it. It's still right now? Yes.

So in terms of what justice looks like, and I'm using that word extremely loosely, for you, is that about, you know, the bigger game isn't necessarily about the authorities being involved or it's about places of work having better policies to be able to deal with things there and then through investigations. What does that look like? Because there are those who have talked to me about in the past, you know, regretting speaking out in all sorts of instances, what it then does to their career, but they wish there was some way of holding somebody to account.

Yeah, I think one of the problems at the moment is TV. In some of the smaller companies, there's no HR. So at the moment, if you do have a problem with somebody, they would probably be the person you're complaining to. So what we do need to see is a universal independent body. Independence is very important that everybody could go to. At the moment, you can speak to, I mean, mean for example beck to you can get somebody to to mediate on your behalf which is one way forward um i think again as i said a lot of women don't want to escalate it so far that the police are involved um but they just want to be able to

stamp it out at the very start but if we're being told you know you're being hysterical you're being told, you know, you're being hysterical, you're being unreasonable at the beginning, it's unlikely that we're going to escalate our complaints. Well, there seems to have been a bit of an unwitting theme today from talking about health and how women are treated in the NHS and women's voices not being heard through to our discussion on here. Thank you very much for talking to us. It was quite a moment, of course. I'm sure you were surprised as well yourself, 2,000 people signing that open letter, that moment of you putting that open letter in the public domain like that. And it's very interesting to hear your reflection these years on. Mariel Beale, thank you.

A freelance TV producer commenting on where we are right now and some positive in that as well about women and girls' and girls voices being heard about one here for a message that came in i've seen a good number of cases among friends and acquaintances where women have been asking to be heard either about their own conditions or their children's and it's taken years for medics to apologize elizabeth says my gynecological surgeon used to tell me as an endometriosis stage four patient that we women should relax as at least endo was not going to kill us. Quite a lot along those lines. I worked as a hospital social

worker, says this email, for many years and repeatedly witnessed women, particularly older women, being patronised, not listened to, accused of exaggerating or even lying about pain or other symptoms. This was by male and female staff at every level. I'm now an older woman myself, and I dread the day that I need an admission to hospital myself. And another one, of course, the NHS does not listen to women's voices. It reflects society within which male is the norm and female is the aberration. This is reflected across the board from research projects,

safety measures, anatomy drawings, to name very few examples. And just talking about clothes, going back to threads, our particular series at the moment, talking to you, our listeners, about what you've got in the cupboard, stuffed in there that you can't throw away, it's got a particular memory for you that you're just clinging on to. Helena, good morning. Sent a very simple message, but gets to the point. You're a woman after my own heart. I'm wearing my tracksuit bottoms from when I was 13.

I'm 53. That is a good innings. Thank you very much for all of your messages this morning. And of course, for your company. As always, the programme is bettered by your contribution. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. There's a story about Vladimir Putin. When he was a teenager, he saw a film that he became obsessed by. He would watch it, all five hours of it, over and over again. And decades later, he'd say how important it was to the life he chose. It's called The Shield and the Sword, and it tells the story of a Soviet secret agent working at the highest level in the Nazi war machine.

The film prompted Putin to join the KGB. What amazed me, he'd say of the film, was how one man's efforts could achieve what whole armies could not. How one spy could decide the fate of thousands of people. This is the story of a spy who has the fate of tens of millions of people in his hands, told by the men and women who've observed his rise and rise, the Putin experts and the Russia watchers. It's the story of a man who's seen an empire fall and his nation humiliated,

and who's torn up the global order, trying to restore past glory and avenge the slights of the past. I'm Johnny Diamond, and from BBC Radio 4, this is Putin, the story of the man who's changing the world. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.