Woman's Hour - Ellie Wilson, Women-only tower block, Rejection, Women's Hour

Episode Date: May 3, 2023

For Ellie Wilson, now 25, it’s been a year since the man she once called her boyfriend was convicted of raping her and sentenced to five years in prison. Research shows that one in four women have been raped or sexually assaulted as adults, but it is estimated that only one in six will report it with less than 1% of reported cases ending in a conviction. Ellie speaks to Nuala to explain why she chose to waive her right to anonymity and what propels her to continue to campaign for reform of the justice system in light of her experience.Plans for Britain’s first women’s-only tower block, to be built in Ealing, west London, have been approved. The brainchild of the housing association Women’s Pioneer Housing, it will be a 15-storey tower containing 102 flats to be rented to single women, in particular women who are disadvantaged in the housing market. Nuala is joined by the Chief Executive, Tracey Downie, and Vicky Spratt, the Housing Correspondent for the i newspaper, to discuss its potential social impact.Why does rejection hurt so much? And what are some coping mechanisms can people use? Nuala discusses with the Chartered psychologist Fiona Murden, and Kate Wills who describes her fear of rejection, how it has held her back in life, and an experiment she undertook to try and cure it.Many listeners will know that Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour has been broadcast for more than 75 years – since October 1946. But far less well known is an earlier programme called Women’s Hour, which first appeared 100 years ago, in early May 1923. To find about more Nuala speaks to Dr Kate Murphy, Visiting Fellow at Bournemouth University - and author of the book Behind the Wireless: A History of Early Women at the BBC. Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. In a moment, we'll hear from Ellie Wilson, a rape survivor who is one of the few who has secured a conviction against her rapist. Ellie is now working to change the system for others and decided to waive her right to anonymity to do just that. We're going to hear her story. Also today, we want to talk about Britain's first ever women's only tower block. It hopes to give the single women who will rent there an affordable and safe place to call home. But some are questioning whether this is an effective way

to alleviate some of the problems women face when trying to find a suitable place to rent. I'd be curious for your thoughts on the women's only tower block. It's going to be in Ealing in London. 84844 is our text number. But we also want to talk about rejection. It's part of life, right? But it doesn't always make it easy. And I'm wondering whether you have a particular way of dealing with it. One of our guests took radical action to combat the feelings of rejection. So we're going to tell you exactly how she did that.

Again, I mentioned the text is 84844. Also on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. If you would prefer to leave us a little voice note or a WhatsApp message, that's 03700 100 444. And as you know, this is Woman's Hour and we've been around since 1946. But did you know that before this programme there was a Women's Hour? That was back in May 1923. So yes, 100 years ago. We are going to hear what that lineup was like for discussion back then. I'm looking forward to hearing all about it. But let me begin because it is nearly a year since the man that Ellie Wilson once called her boyfriend

was convicted of raping her and sentenced to five years in prison. Research shows that one in four women have been raped or sexually assaulted as adults, but it is estimated that only one in six will report it and less than 1% of reported cases end in a conviction. I saw on Ellie's social media bio, she wrote, pain can either be your prison or your platform. Ellie's now 25 and she joined me earlier this morning to explain why she has chosen to waive her right to anonymity and what propels her to continue to campaign for a form of the justice system in light of her experience. I think for a couple of reasons. Firstly, for me,

I had all this pain and I wanted to try and do something positive with it. And so I was thinking that I wanted to channel it into raising awareness, not just about what happened to me, but also the failings within the broader system and the things I wanted to change. But I also felt like there's so much shame and so much stigma associated with sexual violence and domestic violence that I wanted to be a visible face because I felt that by hiding, it would sort of contribute to that shame and that stigma. And did it help, do you think, with that shame and stigma? that once you've been raped, your life is over. And we can acknowledge how life-changing a crime rape is without sort of delegating rape survivors to eternal misery. When you talk about then it being for people who have been raped, not being condemned for the rest of their life, so to speak, to misery,

that's a very hopeful message which people might not expect. Yeah, I suppose there is this difficult balance, isn't there? Because I feel like my life has been forever changed by what happened to me. And a lot of people sort of misguidedly have told me about moving on. And I don't think I can ever move on from it. But with trauma, you can learn how to live with it, I suppose. And I feel like I owe it to myself to live the best life possible, because that was something that was denied to me when I was in an abusive relationship. And I think that women are so powerful and so capable. And that includes women who've experienced sexual violence. And I just hope that, you know, that can be an uplifting

message for others who have gone through similar things. Let's talk about some of the specifics, Ellie. Daniel McFarlane, the man who was imprisoned for raping you, recently made an application to the Scottish courts for leave to appeal his conviction and sentence to the UK Supreme Court. How did you react when you heard that he intended to do that? And perhaps you could also tell our listeners what the outcome was. So I was in complete and utter shock. We're now almost a year out from when the trial actually took place. So I don't really expect to get calls from the Crown Office anymore. And the woman I spoke to on the phone there even seemed shocked herself that he was trying to take it this far. I was shaking. I was crying.

I felt like I had been put right back into the same headspace that I was in when I was preparing to go to court for that first time and fortunately that application to appeal was denied and somehow I don't think that this is going to be the end of the issue I think he's going to do whatever he can to continue this. And where does that leave you then? Because you talked about their preparing to go to court, but then, you know, do you have to prepare in your head for appeals as well? Do you think you knew that?

No, I didn't anticipate it. I mean, after I'd gotten through the trial and got a guilty verdict and then went to sentencing, I assumed that that chapter was closed. So when I actually reported to the police, my phone was taken from me. And my phone has now been held in evidence for about three years. And it was actually only when I called the current office asking if I could have my phone back that they said oh we can't give it back to you because he's um he's appealing um I realized then that you know it wasn't over that he was going to do all he could and in fact it was only in March that I'd been told that all of his appeals in the Scottish courts had been denied I actually went

out and celebrated with my friend we got a bottle of champagne and it's, you know, you're sent right back to square one. So difficult. Really, really difficult. I mean, it makes it, the only way I can describe it is when you're going to court, it's like you're on, you're in survival mode. It's fight or flight. And with all of this hanging over you, it makes it so difficult to move on. It's like a constant fear, a constant threat. And I know that his appeal attempts are all very likely to fail. They're coming from a place of desperation from him. But that doesn't make it any easier for me to actually try and move on. He was unsuccessful, as we've said, but you wrote on your Twitter account.

Let me read this uh for our listeners lately i've been wondering whether i fanned the flames of my rapists appeal attempts if i perhaps stayed quiet and hadn't drawn attention to what happened to me he and his supporters may have been less relentless in pursuing action in the courts do you still feel that way i would say that that's i always try and be really honest on my social media about the way that I'm feeling and those are definitely thoughts that I have sometimes you know I do have the self-doubt I do wonder I've spoken very publicly about this I've done a lot of media I've poured my heart out online and I do wonder whether all of that attention has just made him even more determined to try and fight against this but I also think that he's just the sort of person that is not

willing to take responsibility for his actions and for me staying silent would go against everything that I believe in I feel like it would be wrong and it would be a disservice to the thousands if not millions of women who have experienced something similar. Tell us about your relationship with Daniel McFarland who is a year into this five-year sentence. It was a very difficult relationship. He actually started off as my best friend. He was pretty much the most important person in my life. I felt like we had a lot in common, but it didn't take very long for things to become abusive.

And I think I struggled because the sort of image that he portrayed at the start was what I thought was the real him. I thought something wrong has happened here and the abuse of him isn't the real him. And if only I am somehow good enough, then I can bring out the good side of him. I told myself it was like a Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde situation.

And however, the relationship did continue for a couple of years. And you even say, you know, that you'll probably never love anyone as much as you loved him. And that's a good thing. Explain that to us. So I think that I loved him more than I loved myself. I would have done anything to try and make the situation better. And I think that someone that hasn't been in an abusive relationship, whether that's a romantic relationship or a different sort of relationship, they don't understand quite the way that trauma can bond you to another person. There's this perception

that abuse can, you know, makes you hate the person. But actually, when you're in that situation, abuse isolates you. And it makes it such that the only person that can understand what you're going through is the abuser. And often they're the only person that comforts you after they've abused you. And so you're completely isolated from everyone else. You've gone through this trauma that makes you feel like you're fundamentally different from anyone else. And I think there's been some really interesting psychological research as well that shows the way trauma alters your brain. It's almost like Stockholm syndrome. Do you think you were aware of that at all within the relationship or was that all afterwards? I don't think I had any sort of awareness of trauma bonds or anything like that at the time.

It was only really afterwards. I was like a drug addict, you know, and when things were good, they were really good. And when they were bad, they were really, really bad. And all I wanted to do was for things to be good. I wanted the abuse to stop. And you become obsessed with trying to make it stop. And get back, I think I heard you say in one of your interviews, Ellie, to a time which was like the best in your relationship, trying to find that high again.

Exactly, exactly. But the thing is, is that's actually just, that's an illusion. That's not the real person. That's a mask that they put on to reel you in. And you really can't see that until you're outside of it. And what was the catalyst, if there was one specific one, to make you decide to go to the police? So I had managed to actually cut off all contact with him and I'd blocked him on all my social media we weren't living in the same place so that made it a lot easier and then we went into lockdown. So lockdown was definitely difficult for me and lots of people in many different ways. But it also provided me with the opportunity to just have some space to think.

And I think that being away from him actually allowed me to see things clearly for once. And the weird thing was is despite you know so much being taken away from me because we're in lockdown I was happier than I'd ever been in years and that's because he wasn't in my life anymore sucking the life out of me and from that I realized you know I needed justice I realized how bad everything he'd done to me was. I wrote it all down, actually, and seeing it on paper, I just knew that I needed justice. And that included an allegation of rape for which he has now been convicted of? Yes. What was the experience of court like?

It was terrifying, honestly. It was terrifying. I've probably never been that scared before. I remember being in the witness room and waiting to go into court. And any time the door would knock, my vision would go black and the room would spin and I've never experienced that before it was a different sort of terror and then you get taken into into the court and everyone turns around and looks at you and they're all in their wigs and their gowns and it's just terrifying um but what I found the most difficult was my um my cross-examination um you know I'd expected going into court that my version of events would be

challenged I knew that that would be difficult but I expected that everyone has a right to a defense but what I expected was for it to focus on the facts of the case. I didn't expect it to be a character assassination. I didn't expect all sorts of irrelevant, honestly, random things to be brought up. And that was a really difficult situation to be put in. How were you able to get a conviction that it was almost like a soldier preparing for war. And I mean, it took two years for my case to actually go to court. I had two years in which to try and mentally prepare myself for what was going to happen. As you'll know, and our listeners probably will know as well, that conviction rates are so, so low. So this was quite the achievement.

Do you remember how you felt when that came through? Yeah, I was ecstatic. I didn't actually go to court when the verdict was announced. And then after all of that long wait, they told me that he had been found guilty of two rapes. I just felt so relieved that, you know, I'd been believed and that all of that evidence had been heard and it'd come back in my favour. You're in the process of making an official complaint about the defence advocate, so the defending barrister, in your trial. And you alluded to some of the things within the courtroom that were difficult.

Can you tell us a little bit more and also why you decided to take this route? Yeah. So like I said, when I was in court, I felt like it was really personal. It felt like personal attacks. I was accused of having narcissistic personality disorder even though I've got no medical diagnosis for that um I was accused of trying to make him jealous and all sorts of random men that I'd you know maybe like literally spoken to in passing were brought up um some of whom I was really surprised by because I was like why is why is why is this person being brought up in trial? I barely know this person. I was told that he was so in love with me and that I was actually the one in control. I think what I found the most difficult was actually what happened at sentencing.

So after he'd already been found guilty, I decided to actually go to sentencing. I thought it would be good for me to get some closure and the defense advocate kept turning around to look at me in the public gallery and was basically making personal insults he said that it was an injustice that I had graduated with a first class degree and a master's of distinction and went on to get a job in my in my chosen career and while his client was headed to prison he said that this was all a matter of him falling in love with the wrong girl that it should never have gone this far and he essentially implied that I was promiscuous and so that was just so unnecessarily traumatic and it was behavior that's not actually allowed because there are rules that regulate

what can and can't be said in court. And I think that so often this behaviour isn't challenged. And for me, it was really important to pursue that. So that is ongoing at the moment. You've also been lobbying the Scottish Parliament for policy change

and better safeguarding in universities. Tell us why. And do you think they're listening? Yeah, so obviously when I decided to report to the police and when he was arrested and charged, we were both enrolled at Glasgow University where we were students and he was suspended from Glasgow after he was charged with rape and I had just assumed that you know that would be the end of the matter until the case came to court but it then transpired that he had transferred to another university in the city that I was

actually working in at the time and had been living a normal student life and I assumed that that university didn't know um about the the rape charges and I let them know and they said that they already knew that he'd been suspended from Glasgow they already knew that he was awaiting trial for rape and that they decided to let him in anyway and so I did an investigation into university policy I sent freedom of information requests to every university in Scotland and essentially I just found that there are serious safeguarding failures and that universities aren't actually asking applicants about criminal convictions or charges and that leads back to a UCAS decision back in 2019 and so for for me, that's a serious concern.

And so I've been trying to work with Scottish Government and UCAS and University of Scotland on this. And just in response, a spokesperson for Edinburgh University said, this is what you were alluding to, in accordance with guidance from the University and College

Admission Service, UCAS, our admissions process does not require applicants to disclose any criminal convictions or ongoing investigations at the point of application unless their chosen degree is exempt from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 or requires membership

of the Protecting Vulnerable Groups scheme. We encourage all other applicants, including matriculated students, to discuss pending charges or restrictions relating to a conviction with us. And they go on and then to talk about how they are raising awareness and delivering training at ucas instead they says we can confirm we've had an initial meeting with ellie wilson to discuss her concerns we're

enormously grateful to ellie for her time and willingness to share her thoughts which we listen to extremely carefully as a consequence we are working closely with other sector agencies on the important issues raised. Do you feel people are listening? Do you think you'll get change? I obviously want to be hopeful. I think people are listening and I think that there is

at least some desire for change. But I do also think that it's perhaps not being taken as seriously as I would like it to be. I think that, I suppose, as a society, we've probably become almost numb to violence against women. And, you know, ultimately, we're gambling with people's lives here. If we're not taking proper safeguarding measures, Would you allow a suspected paedophile or even a convicted paedophile to teach at your child's school? Would you let a terrorist, you know, drive your plane? Of course not. So why is it that we would allow convicted rapists or

people awaiting trial for rape to attend universities where we know can be hotbeds of sexual violence. Let me turn back again to the court in a way. England and Wales is rolling out pre-recorded evidence where rape victims can give evidence and have their cross-examination as close to the time of reporting as possible when memories are fresh. And then it would, they say, avoid the long wait and trauma of an open court. Scotland is considering a range of measures that include specialist sexual violence courts with judge-only trials.

How does that sound to you? And what else do you want to change? I think some of these measures are really promising. But actually, I think that a lot of the things that we could do that would significantly improve the experience for survivors are actually really simple things. So for instance it's really hard to access psychological support. I only got my first counselling session about a week before my case went to trial. So for about two years after reporting the crime, I had no help whatsoever.

I was essentially left to fend for myself. I think that that's really, really bad and we need to resolve that. I think as well, the Crown is really bad at communicating with victims about their cases. We're often left in the dark and have no information whatsoever. I think that that's something that we can easily fix. I think making sure that the defence advocates don't cross the line in cross-examination. We actually have laws that regulate what can and can't be said anyway, but so often they're just thrown aside. And I think that that's amplified by the fact it's so difficult to make a complaint. I had to crowdfund thousands of pounds to actually access my court transcript in order to make the

complaint against the defence. So all of these little things, I don't understand why we're not already doing it. And I understand, you know, we can say, oh, we'll make a specialist sexual offences court, which, you know, is a great idea. But that's the sort of shiny, big, big thing. And I just don't understand why we're not doing all of the smaller things first. Why are we not implementing all of these things that would be really cost effective? It would be really simple to implement, but it's not happening. Ellie Wilson there. I just want to read a statement that we did receive from Cabinet Secretary for Justice and Home Affairs Angela Constance in the Scottish Government who says

last week I launched the Victims, Witnesses and Justice Reform Bill in Scotland this bill will put victims and witnesses at the heart of the justice system this landmark legislation is among the most significant since devolution and will ensure fairness is cemented into the bedrock of Scotland's modern

day justice system. Well, many of you were moved to get in touch, listening to that. Here's one from Sarah. She says, I was raped nearly 30 years ago. It traumatised me for a long time but it didn't ruin my life. Thank goodness Ellie is on your programme saying exactly

that. Let's not give rapists any more control than they have, but telling them that they can ruin us and let's stop drumming into people or into women. She says that rape is the end of your life. If it happens to you, it's an abhorrent, traumatizing act. But women are a pretty strong bunch and you can survive even though you shouldn't have to.

Dr. Peter getting in touch. Very brave, totally honest. Well, well done and full solidarity. That's to you, Ellie. Peter getting in touch. Very brave. Totally honest. Well, well done. And full solidarity. That's to you, Ellie. And one more. Woman's Hour. Rape victims experience at the hands of the defence barrister. Their tactics are disgusting.

The victim should be protected by the judge. How do the defence barristers keep their breakfast down and look at their loved ones at home? 84844. And if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in our interview, there are links on the Woman's Hour website. Now I want to turn to housing. Lots of you getting in touch with us on this as well.

I just mentioned it at the opening of the programme. It's about a Woman's Hour tower block. So you might have seen, of course with rents, of course they're always in the news as well. Just over the past few days, they hit a record high in the UK.

That's according to figures from the property website Rightmove. The average rent outside of London, it is 1,190 per month. Tenants in the capital, that's more than 2,500. And that's for the first time. For women, the high prices are exacerbated

by them having lower incomes on average than men and also spending more then, obviously, on their salary on housing. So this is the new project. It aims to, and I quote, challenge gender inequality and provide much-needed homes for women, unquote. It's Britain's first ever women's-only tower block.

It's in Ealing, West London, as I mentioned. And it's the brainchild of the Housing Association, Women's Pioneer Housing. And it will be a 15-storey tower containing 102 flats. They're to be rented to single women, in particular women who are disadvantaged in the housing market. It joins other female-only housing projects, such as the long-established Newground Co-Housing in High Barnet in North London.

And to speak with us is the Chief Executive of Women's Pioneering Housing, Tracey Downey, and also Housing Correspondent for the Eye, Vicky Spratt. I'll get to some of the messages. They're coming in thick and fast in a moment, Tracey, but welcome. Why is it needed? I think it's very much what you just said, that the disadvantages that women face because of the gender pay gap is one big area in London.

We know that London rental prices, London housing prices is really very steep. And so for single women in particular on lower wages, single women in particular that may have caring obligations that therefore mean that they are restricted in their housing opportunities, and because they're not a priority for social housing, single women find it very hard. They are disadvantaged to the extent

that other people are not disadvantaged. But will it be limited always to single women? What if that single woman meets somebody? What if that single woman has a son? As in meet somebody, I'm talking about a man. Yes, it's not limited. We've been working for over 100 years. And what we say is that a single woman should be the tenant.

And if a single woman then has a family, has a partner, that's fine. We're not going to restrict access to men and to families in this property. It's just that the women will have the tenancy. And therefore, they don't have to be concerned with losing the tenancy if the relationship breaks down and so on. And do you think that will be effective? Basically their name is on the lease? Yes, yes. It's what we've done. It's what we do now. We've got almost a thousand properties. It's the concept that was created over 100 years ago and we continue to deliver that type of service and that type of housing.

And it works well for our residents. What evidence of success do you have? Sorry? What evidence do you have that it's successful? Because our residents tell us. Our residents will tell us about how important it has been that they are the tenant holder. They'll tell us that it means that they're now safe tell us tells us that they've got an affordable home and they do tell us that they can carry on with their lives you know go to work have relationships knowing

that if anything happens they are still the person with the roof over their head um so we know that from the information that our residents tell us. And we know because over the last 100 years, we've been successful at it. And our residents continue to tell us that this type of housing is needed. Let me bring in Vicky here. I mean, how would you assess the housing market at the moment, especially for women? Oh, it's incredibly bleak. I'm sorry not to be able to bring a more optimistic perspective. House prices are at a historic high, even though there have been some slight falls in recent months. Rents, as you just mentioned, are also at a historic high, private rents. Of course, I'm talking about the private rental market.

But wages have not been going up at the same rate. And what we've been seeing in recent years, and this is research from a brilliant organisation called the Women's Budget Group, is that there is increasingly nowhere, not a single place in the UK, where it is affordable for a single woman on her own to buy or rent a home. So is this the answer? Shall we hear from our listeners on what they have to say about it? Okay, let me begin. Jane tweets, aren't we heading down a segregated society? We need to live together not in fear. The media seem to put all men in the beware dangerous category. It's a very small minority.

Women need to look at themselves too for being vile. Basically talking about segregation. That came up as well I saw in the Spectator. Zoe Strimpto saying it was regressive. What would you say, Tracey? I would say we're not segregating anyone.

We are saying that women face a much harder time finding affordable homes in London. And we are giving them the opportunity to find a safe, affordable home. And then they will have partners. Many of our residents have partners. Many of our residents have families. So it's not segregated. It's just saying that someone that's been forgotten, a single woman that's been forgotten,

that hasn't got many options, is going to now get a safe home and continue with their life. What about this one from Jacqueline? She says, I believe this scheme is ill thought out and ill thought through. It will create a female ghetto. It will make women sitting ducks for the very behaviour it is designed to prevent.

So talking about survivors of domestic abuse, I would imagine. The occupants will need to go in and out of their homes. What about protection outside the building, being targeted and followed, for example?

I understand men will be allowed to live there if they become partner to a resident, which we discussed. This opens the door to potential abuse of that situation. What will they achieve

in terms of other residents feeling safe? Tracey? Well, our partners, Lungton and Cottingham, have ensured that this property is going to be followed as secure by design approach. And so it will be safe in terms of the security, the landscaping will be designed to try and ensure that residents feel safe.

But I think, as I said before, this is not about a property the landscape will be designed to try and ensure that residents feel safe. But I think, as I said before, this is not about a property where the only people that can cross the threshold is female. It's about a property where single women are able to get a property, get on a property ladder, rent privately or find affordable housing in London, have the opportunity to do so. What about the aspect of it being a tower block, Vicky? Oh, people don't like tower blocks. Why not? I mean, I come from living for years and years in tower blocks. What is it that you think people have against them?

I think it goes back to the sort of middle of the last century when we were building lots of them. And it was decided that they were ugly, too modern. You know, there were all these wild theories about how people would behave worse in a tower block than they would in a house with a garden. Now, of course, actually, it is much nicer for people and healthier to live in a house with a garden with lots of space. But I'm not sure that tower blocks in and of themselves are the reason why people behave badly or why men assault women. We see that happen in lots of places that are not tower blocks. So I'm not particularly worried about it being a tower block.

And I was interested to read that some of the design features actually will work in women's favour. So lower countertops, for instance. I love that. Yeah, I love that. I'm five foot one. I can't reach anything.

I'm five foot six, but live with a very tall man. So I love the lower countertops. Yeah, I mean, I have a step to get to get to the cupboards in my flat. So I think these design features working in women's favour are very, very good. I also did I read correctly, Tracy, ventilation for menopausal women? I think in terms of designing, we ask based on what they need and those are the types of things that come up. So I think it's more about making sure it's well vented and that people have access to that.

Let me see, Lila says, I wouldn't want to live in a terror block at all, but if I had to, obviously women only would be best. But whenever you say women only, you know what happens next. Now, I think what she's getting at there, Lila, is how are you,

thanks Lila for your message, how are you defining, Tracey, a woman and who qualifies? So the definition of a woman, we've got a policy in terms of recognising transgender women, for example, and we follow that policy. And it is a set out, you know, so it's legal expectation, you know, housing association. So it's important for us to make sure that we follow equality diversity approach so we do recognize transgender women and we will offer our properties to transgender women who need property because they cannot afford something themselves. I'm really pleased to hear that transgender women will be accepted into this scheme.

I think there's a really important point here that's sort of being missed and was particularly missed in that Spectator article, which called this scheme regressive, which is really an economic point. I often go to eviction courts and watch as people are evicted from privately rented homes or have their homes repossessed. And something that has struck me in these courts is how often it is women who are trying to save their home because they've had an abusive partner leave or they've had a partner leave and just simply stop paying and they can no longer afford to pay on their own. And now if the tenancy is in both people's names and it's unaffordable, the bank or the landlord really don't care who pays as long as it gets paid.

And both people are liable. And I've watched so many women desperately arguing to save their homes and not being able to. So I think actually putting tenancies in women's names, women's names only, tendencies that they can afford is very radical. It's not regressive at all, quite the opposite. Do you feel it's a radical move, Tracey? It's something we've been doing. I think it's great. In all fairness, it's absolutely the right thing to do.

Let me see. Diana got in touch. Sounds great. I went to Durham Uni back in the days when we had all girls' residencies at colleges. These attracted all the peeping toms, the flashes etc and proved less safe than the mixed colleges like I went

to. I mean that's bringing up some of the same points but are you thinking about that Tracey? I mean you may have a number of vulnerable women or in complex situations. Does there need to be something in that building or kind of structured within the planning of this residence? Yeah, we're absolutely

thinking about that. As I said before, it's got secure by design and part of the reason we picked that up is to make sure that we provide the right level of security for women there. I have to say, obviously the publicity we have might make it a target, but it's not going to be built for another couple of years. And we'll have plenty of time to speak to a resident

to look at our own experiences and ensure that we do have the right level of security. I will say most of the criticism of it was because it was a high tower block of 15 stories. When will it happen, Tracey? We expect it to be ready by about 2025, summer 2025.

And if people want to know more? Probably go to our website, I should say. Our website gives you information about how you can join our waiting list. We'll get nominations from the local authorities, so that might be another area that people can have a look at. So that's Chief Executive of Women's Pioneer Housing, Tracey Downey. Also, we had Housing Correspondent for the Eye,

Vicky Spratt. Thanks to both of you. Let me see. I don't have a name with this one, but it says, I lived in a tower block for 19 years and called it my vertical village. It was a wonderful place to live with beautiful views thanks for all your comments that are coming in 84844 if you'd like to get in touch

now i have a feeling you are going to want to get in touch with my next guests that we are going to talk about rejection never feels good, does it? Even if you didn't really want the thing, it still doesn't feel good if you're rejected. But studies have shown that the same regions of the brain actually get activated when we experience rejection as when we encounter physical pain. There is also a gender difference in the way that men and women react to it.

So why does it hurt so much? And what are some of the coping mechanisms that people could use to help themselves? I have Kate Wills, who has written an article about her fear of rejection, how it did hold her back in life, and also the experiments she undertook to try and cure it. You'll want to know about that. And we are also joined by Chartered Psychologist Fiona Merton. Welcome to both of you. Thank you. Hi. 84844 if you want to talk to me about how you manage your rejection. Now, Kate, you wrote the article about your fear of rejection. Why? As you say, no one loves hearing no, but I found it particularly excruciating.

And as a result, I just never really put myself out there for things. You know, I'd never apply for jobs. I've never asked for a pay rise or a promotion. You're not alone. I was just looking at the figures for that the other day. Exactly. And even in my friendships and relationships, you know, I was really scared of putting myself out there and getting a knockback. And I started to wonder if maybe it was kind of holding me back or affecting my life.

And I decided that it really was. And I'd be in awe of these people who could just ask for what they wanted. And if they got a no, you know, no big deal. And they'd brush themselves off and ask again. And so I kind of started to look online really for kind of tips on overcoming it. And, you know, I got all the usual things, you know, like, oh, don't take it personally or, you know, what's the worst that can happen? No. But for me, it was just so difficult. Even getting a very polite, you know,

thanks but no thanks email say, I would immediately delete it. And I polite, you know, thanks, but no thanks email say I would immediately delete it. And I'd, you know, I'd wake up in the night thinking, oh, God, that's so embarrassing that they didn't like that idea. And I was just filled with shame, basically, every time I got turned down. Well, let me bat that over to Fiona then. Why does it hurt so much? And in some of the ways that Kate is describing? Well from an evolutionary perspective I think people are becoming more and more aware that we are deeply dependent on other people and our connections are massively important and if you think about tribes thousands of years ago

if someone was excluded from the group they would die it's as simple as that but then also being part of the group enabled cooperation around being able to kill food, being able to protect one another, looking after children. And so what some scientists believe is that the rejection, like you said, triggers the same areas of the brain as pain. And what some have said is the social attachment system basically piggybacks the physical pain system in order to make us motivated to move away from it. To not be rejected. So we're kind of fighting against everything if we're to put on a brave face when rejected. We are, but there are different levels of sensitivity

depending on the experiences we've had in life. Oh, and then, you know, mentioning the gender differences, how does that play out? So gender differences are influenced, again, by male, female, hormonal, genetic, but also environmental, cultural aspects will influence the way women will experience the sensitivity to rejection. And women are more sensitive to rejection, whether that's social rejection, romantic rejection or job rejection.

Because of social conditioning along with hormones, for example? Yeah, I mean, it's really, really complex, but it's not that the research does show that women respond more sensitively than men. I am just thinking about risk and whatnot. I'm just thinking of that larger, you know, where men sometimes put themselves out. I think that's so true. I mean, thinking back to my own childhood, you know, I was definitely told like, you know, as a girl, it's polite to wait to be offered. Don't ask for things and you know traditionally you know it's it's men who are who are doing the asking out they're doing the

proposing women just aren't kind of told to put themselves out there in that way and I think as a result we don't build up any tolerance to it funny we had uh we're talking about the etiquette manual de bretts the other day on the programme and that now either man or woman can propose that that old etiquette is now gone. We're all happy to hear. But you came across, Kate, a TED Talk that gave some advice that you took to heart. Yeah, I actually came across a website

that's called rejectiontherapy.com and the idea is it's almost kind of like a game in that you kind of have to try and get rejected every single day and you're kind of building up your tolerance to it like a like a muscle and and there are lots of people kind of posting videos about the the kind of funny rejections that they got but there was this this one guy called jarge yang who um he he got rejected every day for a hundred days how um all all kinds of different things, you know, crazy things. He asked a Santa to sit in his lap

and he asked to give a lecture at a university and he tried to interview Barack Obama, you know, all these different kinds of things, ranging from like the small to quite big. And he made these videos and some of them actually ended up going viral. And he did this TED Talk about getting rejected and went on to write a book about it um and i just thought it was a really really interesting idea and so i i set myself the challenge of um of getting

rejected for a month i didn't do a hundred days but what did you do well all kinds of things and it was actually really difficult to get no's because I discovered that people actually really, really want to help you. Give me an example. Oh, I did all kinds of things. I asked a stranger to borrow £100. And what did he or she say? Well, amazingly, they kind of considered it, which I felt really bad about. Did you just go up to a stranger in the street?

Yeah, just a man. That's amazing. It probably helps that you're good looking. It was terrifying. I felt like I was going to do a skydive or something I had like pounding chest sweaty palms I pushed to the front of a queue which just obviously went against every fiber by being being British I was about to say being British that's particularly difficult cultural conditioning again and what happened when you asked to go ahead? Yes, I got so many yeses. And in fact, it was it was infuriating because the aim of the game obviously is to get rejected. So

it was really difficult. I want to know some more. Give me another example. So I had to go to quite like extreme lengths to get a no. So I went into a bookshop and I asked if I could borrow a book, which you can imagine got some laughs. Somebody should have been filming this. I took a PC computer to an Apple store and asked if they could help me. They were very helpful. But did it help? So at the beginning, it was awful. And I was like, I'm not going to be able to do 30 days of this. How am I going to get out of it? And in fact, if I hadn't agreed to write an article about it I probably would have given up

but by the end of the month I was like actually it's no big deal it's fine I was like loving getting rejected and now I find it much easier to deal with it's no big thing and I would imagine that's going to have knock on good consequences for your day to day life? I hope so. I have found that. I mean, I just think really, if you don't ask, you don't get and there really is no harm in just, you know, posing the question. Let me throw this back to you, Fiona. So can we exercise that muscle like what Kate has decided to do? Well, there's something called exposure therapy, actually, which does what you've done. But I would say with caution it depends what

experiences you've had as a child because if someone's had severe sort of emotional abuse as a child what happens is that rejection gets generalized so initially it's about the person that abused them and the context they were abused in but over time that becomes generalized to be anything so there's a rejection sensitivity is heightened and if you throw someone in who's who's got real problems in terms of their attachment um capabilities and how they've grown up it could be quite a bad idea so i think it's if you feel like it's something that's quite acute for you, it might be worth speaking to a therapist about it and potentially doing what you did, but doing it with the guidance of someone who can help. And what about just for maybe it's not a severe fear of rejection, but that they don't like most people that don't put themselves out there because they're slightly worried about it, are there? Or maybe they have been rejected, are there coping mechanisms? I mean there are and some of them like you said can sound a bit crass because it's like

oh well you know it's look at it as a good thing and like well when you're feeling something and like pain you can't just go oh yeah everything's okay so there are things like cognitive reframing so it's looking at it from a different angle for example you might say i've been rejected because i'm an awful person or i haven't got that job because i'm not bright enough it's looking at that and thinking is that actually the facts is it true is it true but sometimes that needs someone else's help because we tend to get so enmeshed with the emotion that we're feeling and sometimes these sort of techniques that you can use in cognitive behavioral therapy they sound great but in reality if you're really feeling something

it can be quite difficult to pull yourself away from it but the one thing I would refer to is there's a lot of research where we hang on to emotions now that can be something like depression it could be something like grief more severe emotions but when we hang on to emotions it means that it does become an issue so as far as possible it's accepting that it does feel a bit icky I think you used the word icky in your article, actually, which really resonated with me. But it's sitting with that and accepting that that's OK,

that is normal, and then trying to pass through it. And talking to friends, you know, looking at different mindsets are helpful. There is an article, actually, which I should mention for our listeners, they might enjoy it. It was in the New York Times, and it was about rejection letters that people get for college and that they're now they have these ceremonies where they shred them, you know, stick them up on the wall. And that lots of people are kind of embracing the rejection to try and make a virtue of it. And he who gets or she that gets the most rejection letters is the winner, so to speak. Here's one for us victoria

tweeting when i was at university going back to college doing the milk round one firm i really quite desperately wanted to work for i just didn't apply to because i was too scared they would say no ridiculous and i regretted it for years now i have children i drum into them how you only regret the things you don't do and that you miss a% of the chances that you don't go for. It seems to be working and both my children put themselves out there for things in a way that I never did. So we leave it on that tree. Thank you both so much for coming in. I think people will have some food for thought there. Kate Wills, who's written the article on the fear of rejection and charter psychologist Fiona Burton. Let me move on next to Women's Hour. Yes, Women's Hour on Women's Hour.

Many listeners will know that our programme has been broadcast on the BBC for more than 75 years, since October 1946. But maybe you don't know the earlier programme called Women's Hour. That appeared 100 years ago, so early May 1923. So apt we talk about it now. The person we have brought in to oversee Women's Hour, that was brought in to oversee Women's Hour back then, was Mrs Ella Fitzgerald.

She was a former Fleet Street journalist. And the inaugural programme included two talks. Let's see, one on the adoption of babies, given by Princess Alice, the Duchess of Athlone, and the other on fashions by the esteemed courtier Lady Duff Gordon. I want to bring in Dr. Kate Murphy,

visiting fellow at Bournemouth University. I should also say former Woman's Hour producer. Her main research area is a history of women at the BBC, which I have to say I'm very interested in. And she's author of the book Behind the Wireless, A History of Early Women at the BBC. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Tell us more about why Women's Hour was set up.

Well, I think you've got to remember that in 1923, the BBC had only been going for six months. So it started kind of very end of 1922. And they just moved to these brand new purpose-built studios in Savoy Hill, which was where the BBC was based for the first 10 years. And there were these kind of, with this big room with, you know, draped with curtains to kind of keep the sound down. And they launched this programme, Women's Hour, on the 2nd of May. And as you said, they had the Duchess of Aston and Lucille Duff Gordon

on the programme giving talks. And the reason they wanted to do a women's program was if at the time nearly all married women would have been in the home because there was a convention that you left work when you got married they also had many marriage bars so if you were a teacher a civil servant this sort of in those sorts of jobs you would have had to have resigned when he got married. So there's this captive audience in the home of married women. And they realised that they needed a programme to be based at them. And that's the kind of idea behind Women's Hour. And of course, they were in the newspapers and magazines you would have had with women's pages. So it was a kind of a similar sort of idea, I guess, which is probably why they brought in Ella Fitzgerald.

I mean, I find that quite interesting, the adoption of babies and also fashion. That's something that we would do today. So it sounds quite modern to me. They did establish, I was reading, a Women's Advisory Committee to oversee the running of the programme. Why? They did. But when the programme started out, it was very much Ella Fitzgerald's ideas. So she was bringing in people that she knew, journalists and accomplished women to talk about there. They gave talks. So these are talks written in reverse.

They're not interviews. It's a very different set up. Always live, of course. And the BBC was trying to prove itself as being kind of very eminent and a very worthy organization because broadcasting is so new at this time so they set up these advisory committees so they had there were other areas like religion they had one as well and um various other advisory committees

so they had a women's advisory committee and it was made up of these very eminent kind of women who were in kind of public life there was Denman, who was the chairman of the National Federation of Women's Institutes. There was a physician. They had an actor. They had seven eminent women who met with Ella Fitzgerald and some of the male managers to kind of decide what would be on the programme, to kind of focus it a little bit differently

and have that input from outside into the programme. Right, of what women want to hear. But then the name was abolished, Women's Hour, in favour of, if I got this right, talks of general interest, but with particular appeal to women. What a mouthful. Well, I think what I imagine happened is this. So these are very, I mean, they always have had these debates about whether women should be different or equal so you and they still carry on today you know should women have special treatment because they're women or because they have children in all sorts of things or should women have exact equality with men in completely in in you know with no difference not with she's

in any differently so these debates were around at the time. And we don't know, but I can only imagine that they felt that they didn't want women to be kind of, you know, picked out as being different. And so they voted. Which is so interesting because we're talking about 100 years ago. But yes, continue. Those debates were very current in the 1920s. So they decided to get rid of the name.

And interestingly, after this point, I mean, they still kept going for about a year. The name was abolished. They still kept having women's talks, but they gradually diminish. And it really made me think because just before I joined Women's Hour, I joined in 1993. Of course, they've been the kind of the big change in the programme when the editor at the time in 1990 had campaigned to keep the name of Women's Hour for Women's Hour, just for this very reason, I think. You know, so that the idea, women's issues weren't dissipated and didn't get lost.

So it's quite interesting kind of looking back to what happened back in 1920, well, early 24, when they voted to get rid of the name. Yes. But women's items still continued, and there was an incredible range, but they just weren't ring-fenced within a kind of a women's hour or women's hour name. So kind of dissipated into the radio schedule.

Yeah, and so they started to bring in concerts. They just started, rather than having these two talks every day, they just started to get fewer and fewer. And in the end, they decided to abandon the advisory committee. But a new iteration, you mentioned there, October 1946, Woman's Hour was launched. Janet Quigley became editor in 1950, in our last minute. How significant was that? Well, she was one of several women who made women's programmes over that intervening period,

especially during the Second World War. And she actually, she was not there in 1946 when Women's Hour started, so it may have been different. When she came back in 1950, she was amazing. She kind of professionalised it. She got more funding for it. She got higher status for it. So Janet Quigley was really important.

But she brought all her knowledge of making women's programmes from 1936 she'd made them. So she was a fantastic. Diana, women's issues on the BBC. Like yourself. Dr Kate Murphy, Visiting Fellow at Bournemouth University and former Woman's Hour producer.

I have to say, Woman's Hour, when I came to the BBC looking for a job, it was the first show I went to see to go out live, little realising that I might be sitting in this seat a number of, a good number of years later.

Thanks for joining us. Well, do join us tomorrow on Woman's Hour. Vogue cover stars, Ellie Goldstein and Rosaline McDonagh and kneelers more precisely the tradition of making kneeling cushions

those ones that you find in churches and also all the intricate folk art and tapestries that decorate them

so something very specific maybe you haven't thought about that before you'll think about it after tomorrow's programme I just want to go back to Ellie Wilson again, just in my last few moments.

A rape survivor who her boyfriend was convicted for rape. Of course, so few people are. A Belfast girl tweeting, very hard for rape victims to report or go through a trial. Almost impossible if you do not have the support of family and friends.

The lack of support can crush a victim. Thanks so much for joining me. I'll talk to you on Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, my name's Michelle D'Souza. And I'm Laura Smith. And we have a new podcast from BBC Radio 4. Bang On It is a weekly podcast where we curate, recommend, cherry pick through the week and just go, have a look at that.

Basically. We're going high brow, we're going low brow, right? We're doing the legs. We're doing the hard yards so you don't have to. Oh, I like that. Listen, like all podcasts, we're talking about stuff we've done, whether you should bother doing it, but really we're waxing lyrical and trying to make that paper, baby.

The economy's in the pan. Subscribe to Bang On It on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.