Woman's Hour - Emeli Sandé, Depp v Heard, Afghanistan

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

Emeli Sandé is one of Britain’s most successful songwriters. With 19 million singles sold including three number one singles, 6 million albums and four BRIT awards (including Best Female twice!). Emeli joins Emma to discuss her music, and has a specially recorded version of There Isn’t Much – a track written with Naughty Boy and Shaq, from her new album Let’s Say For Instance. Over the weekend in Afghanistan the Taliban ordered that all women must wear a burqa in public. It's the latest blow to women's rights in the country since the Taliban took power in August last year. Yalda Hakim is an International Correspondent for the BBC and spoke to us about this development. What is it like to run a fashion magazine? We ask Kenya Hunt, who became the first black Editor-in-Chief at Elle UK when she took over the role in March. With print readership in decline, and the fashion industry reeling from the pandemic, how does she plan to keep women reading magazines? Depp v Heard. It’s the court case that has gripped not just America but the whole world. The actor Johnny Depp is suing his ex-wife Amber Heard for defamation over an article in which she said she was a victim of abuse. The BBC’s Holly Honderich joins Emma to discuss this very public trial. Anna Kent is a humanitarian aid worker, NHS nurse and midwife. She was 26 when she joined Medecins Sans Frontieres (Doctors without Borders) for her first assignment in South Sudan in 2007. She has subsequently worked as a midwife across the world including Ethiopia, Haiti, Bangladesh and the UK. She has now written a book, Frontline Midwife: My Story of Survival and Keeping Others Safe.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Emma PearcePhoto credit: Olivia Lifungula

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. As Ukrainians endure the 75th day of fighting and Russian bombardment, how have certain songs and tracks brought things to life for you in a way perhaps other things could not? When has music cut through and marked major moments in your life

the national agenda, the international agenda, a particular story what was it and why and when has it connected you to people and told stories in only the way it can. I'll of course ask Emily for some of hers perhaps as well but do get in touch with your take on this

text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Or on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or email me through our website. But also on today's programme, I want to pause, shine a light and analyse the latest orders directed at Afghan women. Over the weekend, Afghan women have been ordered to wear the burqa by the Taliban for the first time in decades.

Any woman who refuses to comply and ignores official warnings to male members of her family could see a male guardian jailed for three days. More detail and analysis on that to come. We'll also bring you the latest on the Amber Heard and Johnny Depp trial, and stories from the midwife, the one who has seen it all and some. Believe me, you're going to want to hear from this woman with regards to her travels right around the world. All that's come on the programme and more. But first, Emily Sandé, one of Britain's most successful songwriters. Her debut album was the bestseller, spending 10 weeks at number one. Her hit singles include You Just Heard One, Heaven, Read All About It and Next To Me. And she's received four Brit Awards, including Best Female twice, two Iron Novello Awards.

And in 2012, as I've mentioned, at both of those opening and the closing ceremonies of the London Olympics, she really made those moments as well as, of course, just casually performing at the White House. Now she's back with a new album and single. The single is called There Isn't Much. The album's called Let's Say, for instance, and we will hear that single in a very, very special recording for us this morning, very shortly. But Emily, let's hear from you first of all.

Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for having me. Music taking you somewhere else that other things can't. What do you think of when you hear that statement? And I think music has got this incredible power, you know, to heal us, to lift us and take us somewhere else, even if it's just for three minutes. But it's I find music to be this interesting world between earth and heaven. It's kind of this bridge that we have.

And I always feel that, you know, melodies come from somewhere else. They come from a very spiritual realm for me. So music is this kind of in-between land. And I love being there. And you actually have also talked a lot about, you know, your faith and belief as well and trying to figure that out. Yeah, music's always a spiritual experience for me, whether I'm listening to it,

but especially when I'm creating it. You kind of have to go in a bit of a trance, I think, to get the best songs and step out of the way of that channeling. And yeah, I mean, that might sound exaggerated, but that's how I feel when I make music. Even when I was learning to play piano, I was teaching myself at the beginning, but somehow I just, you know, my hands felt guided and I just have a very special relationship with melody. It's quite an intimate one. And I think

for any musician out there, it's a very special feeling when you're kind of entrenched in the melody. How do you feel that so many of us associate you with something like the Olympics? I mean, it was a great honour and it was a great privilege to perform there, not only to represent the country, but also to sing that song in particular. You know, Abide With Me is one that... That was what you did in the opening? In the opening, Yes. And it's a song that means so much to so many people. It was a favorite of my granddad's as well. So I did feel the pressure of delivering a performance that was worthy of that song. And then to close the Olympics with one of my own songs, Read All About It. Yeah, I mean, what an honor. It wasn't even planned for me to be in

first, you know, for me to be in first you know for me to be in the opening and the closing but it just worked out that way and I look back on those memories with great joy yeah I bet I think it's just it's not just about the Olympics at that point I suppose it was the country also feeling who are we what do we stand for yes and obviously Danny Boyle had pressure on him to try and bring that to the fore yeah a friend of mine actually said to me recently that she only re-watched the whole thing yeah recently it was replayed and it's just amazing to to look back on like that and be a part of that i imagine yeah i mean we're planning it for about well i got involved um maybe six months before the event and i remember they you know brought us to the secret bunker where they

had a model of what he was planning to do and he was so passionate, he was such a loving man and I just thought they wanted to play Heaven because he played me the set but what he managed to do to represent what the UK stands for I thought was really beautiful and it made me very proud to be a part of it. And when you come to picking a song for a fundraiser

like for Ukraine, how do you go about that? I try to pick a song that is uplifting and can inspire hope because I think that's what that whole concert was really about, coming together and finding unity through music. So we are in very dark times, you know, especially the people of Ukraine, they're going through so much. So I wanted to choose a song which would be uplifting, but also recognizes that we are in difficult times.

And I hope that Brighter Days does that. Yes, and it connects people, I suppose, in a way to people if they can't do very much themselves. Debbie actually messaged in after hearing my introduction to you with your music, of course, with Heaven in there. Emma, that opening music just gave me goosebumps. Thank you.

And that's, I suppose, what it can do. And we're going to hear one of your new singles, the new single, very shortly. But before we do, it's always such a treat to have the person, the writer with you to explain it. Hopefully it doesn't require explanation, but it's lovely to hear what was going on in your mind. It's called There Isn't Much. And tell us, what's it referring to? It's referring to without love and in whichever form you feel that, whether it's love for a partner or love for yourself, or as we've been speaking about, the spiritual love, everything kind of falls apart. We can reach the highest of highs, achieve all our dreams, and we are in quite a materialistic world at the moment,

and it is very pushed on people to prioritise that. But I think even once you achieve all of these things, it becomes nothingness. If you have no love to return to or you don't have the stability of love, everything becomes empty. That isn't much by the wonderful Emily Sando, who I'm sitting here listening to this. It's quite a meta experience, this special acoustic version. Thank you so much for that.

Oh, my pleasure. It's given me tingles. Oh, thank you. Everywhere. What's it like hearing it back when you know what's behind each of those lyrics? It is emotional. You know, it's often, it's funny to listen back as a listener, you know, because when you're creating it, you're trying to perfect it, trying to do this, that and the other. But to listen back, it makes me understand the song from different angles.

It's quite strange that your own songs can teach you things even years later. Something like, let's say, Clown. That's a song even now I listen to and I think, gosh, what was I really speaking about? And I guess it comes back to that kind of channeling part. You're there and you're present in some form, but there is this element that you don't have control over. So you can still be learning from something that you've written years ago.

Well, you talk about in that song, I swear there isn't much without you. And you've spoken about being in love recently. Yes. And, you know, I'm minded to bring that up because some people will be thinking, you know, you can have all the things in the world, but if you don't have that person, that's what they'll attach to it. And was that what you were thinking about? Yeah, definitely. I mean, most of the time when I sing, I am thinking about somebody

personally. And it's true when you have that stability and that love to return to that, no matter what you do you know you still feel that you'll be loved unconditionally that gives you so much confidence I mean it's important to have self-confidence of course but to feel loved regardless of whether you're successful in your career you want to change your career or you just want to you know whatever you want to do you still can go home to that support and love it's a really lovely feeling which it's the first time i've really experienced it really yeah wow that's that's a big thing i imagine yeah smiling ear to ear as you say it and you're in love you're in a relationship with a woman and

yeah does she know this song's about her she got the hint um yeah i think so she's also uh who are you thinking of in the video and you know you know, but yeah, I've definitely let her know. You know, there's a lot of the album that is inspired by that love. And there's a song called Ready to Love. It feels nice to kind of finally feel in a place and to feel you have to put yourself in a very vulnerable position to be in love and to be loved and to love. So to get to a place where you can put your walls down, it does take a while. Yeah. And the video is great as well. I know that you work with a female director on that. And tell us a bit about that and the process for that and how important that was to work

with a woman. Yeah, I worked with a fantastic director called Marie Kay. And we just had a wonderful time. I think when you work with women, there does seem to be this ease and understanding, which is, it doesn't need to be spoken on, but there's just this flow. And her whole team were wonderful. We really felt it was important to be as inclusive as possible in the video. And it just turned out great. We did a one shot. We did it five times. And then she said, okay, that's a wrap. And I thought, wow, this is the best video I've ever done. But it was just about... Are you saying women are more efficient?

I might be saying that, yes. Not putting words out. Just, you know, words my drops. But there's a sensitivity there. And there's, you know, I sent a few notes. I said, I want to do a full take, one shot. And I want to play a full take one shot and I want the I want to play the bass at the beginning and she really got the memo we had one zoom call just to discuss

everything and the way that she choreographed the dancers really took in the lyric there was such a deep understanding of the song which I really feel has been displayed in that video oh it's beautiful it's uh congratulations on that as well. You know, the visual side of it, as well as, of course, what people are hearing. I've got to ask, is it right your mum sent CDs of your songs to one extra? Yes, my mum, my original best manager. She has, you know, she doesn't often get the credit because often I talk about my dad introducing me to music. But when I was in Glasgow, when they dropped me off to study medicine, my mum said, you know, we're really proud of you, well done, but don't forget that you're a musician.

And I always remember that as she was kind of handing her daughter over to the student halls. And she said, I remember you're a musician. So I had recordings from when I'd first been coming to London, which she sent in. So this is my daughter, check her out. And she actually got me my first play on it. It was a Ras Kwame on one extra.

He used to play homegrown talent. So she really pushed for me and she made sure that I didn't forget who I was. I've just got this image of her, you know, writing the letter, sticking the label on, sending it off. Yeah, exactly. That's what it was. That's awesome. Yeah.

And I know it's been written about and been talked about that you stopped training to be a doctor. Yeah. But were they disappointed by that or did they just know you were going to do this? And how do you feel about it all these years on? I mean, I think they, I mean, I would have loved to finish the course, but it's so long. That would have been another two, three years. But and I did, you know, I loved it so much.

But they were, I guess they were a little disappointed. But I think they knew that all I'd cared about since I was seven years old was being a musician. So they knew that deep in my heart, that's what I really wanted to do. And when I got the opportunity to be published and to move to London, they knew that I wasn't just doing it on a whim. So they were supportive. And I don't know, when I I look back especially during the past few years through the pandemic I have thought would I have been more use as a doctor

would I have been able to give more with medical knowledge but that has inspired me to try to put that healing energy into the music That's interesting, so that was on your mind Yeah, in fact I've just got in touch with a couple of guys they came to the album release the other day from med school.

And a guy I was studying with, he's called Jonathan Fant. We were both in the neuroscience, you know, course together. Big up to Jonathan. Yeah, big up to Jonathan. But he was one of the people that really inspired me to go after the music because we'd sit in the lab and I was like, I don't understand this, how to this, that and the other. And he said, you know, you really have to be passionate and go for what you want. And he said, it's really inspiring to me, you going for your music,

because I was doing these little shows in between. And I've just heard that he won a gold medal for neurology. So I'm just, it was amazing to be around people that were so dedicated to medicine, so passionate. And in a strange way, it inspired me to be around people that were so dedicated to medicine and so passionate. And in a strange way, it inspired me to go for what my passion really was. So he's one of his equivalent of the Brit as well. Yeah, I think maybe like 20 Brits. Come on, I did list some of yours. We've got a few more.

Didn't you mention the MBE? And I'm sure there's other things I missed out there. But I'll take Dr.ow giving me healing through music. Yes, thank you. That's the prescription we'll all take. Many people getting in touch to say as much. And another one here from a listener who said, I actually found Emily online last week. So maybe just a new discovery for her. A bit late to the party, Katie.

And spent the whole of Friday afternoon listening. I just couldn't turn her off. Such evocative music. I'm now definitely a super fan. But others getting in touch to talk about exactly what I asked about, the power of music. Cathy saying, bit of a cheat as I was at Live Aid 85, but have never seen the sheer power of music affect such a huge crowd before or since.

Seeing 85,000 people clapping and mimicking the salute from the video for Queen's Radio Gaga was something that will never leave me. Truly spine tingling. People don't forget those memories, do they? And the reason that they came together. All the best with it. The album's called Let's Say, for instance, and the single that you were just hearing that special recording of, there isn't much. Emily Sandé, Dr. Sandé of music.

We're getting there. Thank you for the prescriptions. We need it on a Monday morning more than ever. It's lovely to have you. Thanks for having me. And more messages about the power of music. One just saying here, the power of song reminds me of teaching my class

of three to five-year-olds who were children of key workers during COVID. I was worried about all of them, including the children who weren't attending and those who didn't have the best home life. I'm a passionate teacher who's always gone above and beyond for the children that I teach. More messages again along those lines about the power. Kathy says, music is one of my main educators and passions. The music I love guides my politics, supports my social justice beliefs, my sexuality, my parenting and my friendships. Another one here, 30 years ago, trapped in an abusive marriage

to a coercive, controlling man. Freedom by George Michael came on the radio. I remember collapsing against my back door in floods of tears with the words, I don't belong to you and you don't belong to me, ringing in my heart. It's marked a low point, but also a turning point. And a year later i left to be free and to be myself i've never looked back wow that's incredible thank you so much for feeling you could share that and what a moment what a moment indeed and what a song for it thank

you keep those messages coming in on 84844 which song song, which moment, what has music done, where is it taking you that perhaps something else could not do? Let us know. Now, over the weekend in Afghanistan, the Taliban ordered that all women must wear a burqa in public. It's the latest blow to women's rights, to women's choices in the country since the Taliban took power in August last year. It comes not long after the Taliban reversed its decision to allow girls to go to secondary schools. Well, Yalda Hakim is international correspondent for the BBC and joins me now. Good morning, Yalda.

Good morning, Emma. Good to have you back with us. But it's a very difficult story, I'm sure, to keep on covering. And I need to know, and we all need to know, I suppose, what's precipitated this? What's the latest? Well, Emma, for the last eight, nine months, you and I have been speaking about the slow erosion of women's rights in Afghanistan, of them being pushed out of the public eye. And every time there's been a new edict from the Taliban, we've had a conversation.

And in many ways, I suppose we many of us who have been following the story have covered the story. There was hope against hope that perhaps this wouldn't be Taliban of the 90s, that this was a different Taliban, Taliban 2.0, as many people describe them. In the peace talks in Doha, when they were negotiating with the United States, they talked about being a different kind of Taliban. What we're seeing today is basically what women in Afghanistan had to live through in the 90s. And so over the weekend, they held a gathering and they said that all men, a room full of men, decided that they wanted women to cover their faces, have veils over their faces. This has obviously reversed so many things for women because they're saying that when you leave home,

you need to cover your face. When you interact with a stranger, you need to cover your face. When you work in a public space, you need to cover your face. This isn't just about the hijab or the burqa or the niqab in Afghanistan. This is pushing them out of the public space, pushing their voices completely out and silencing them. And has there been a response from any of the women that I know you keep in touch with?

They continue to have these different types of protests. We saw the courageous women and girls of Afghanistan come out on the streets, initially hundreds when the Taliban first came to power in August. And they were literally staring down the barrel of a gun and saying, we are not going to give up our rights. We are not the women that you ruled over 20 years ago. Don't forget, Emma, for the last 20 years, since the US led invasion, since Britain was in that country, these women have been empowered. Their girls have been empowered. Millions and millions of girls and women went back to school in 2001, 2002. They were given the chance to be very much

part of the growth and development of the nation. Of course, there were many faults and flaws of the different regimes in Afghanistan over the last two decades. But they did have a voice, certainly in the urban areas, in places like Kabul and in Kandahar city, in Mazar, in Herat. Life was very different for those living in rural communities. But those women have now been told, you don't have a place in this country, you don't have a voice. And so they are protesting silently in their homes. So we've gone from staring down the barrel of a gun to women disappearing and being detained and threatened and held in custody and completely disappeared to now sitting in their homes, covering their faces, but holding up banners. And yet what we do know as well is that if they do not comply, it is the male guardian, as it were, it's a male relative in their family that will be punished. And that again, is taking the autonomy away and the right of a woman, right? So it's a

very particular power play, isn't it? Very, very particular and very, very clever when you think about it, because what they have done is given the right to the man. So he says to the woman in his home in his life, you must cover up or I'm going to end up in prison. You must cover up or I'm going to end up in court. And what kind of court and prison are we talking about? You know, and so in many ways, the power play that's being that's playing out here is that all the rights and independence of a woman is being handed over to the male guardian. And so what happens to a woman who's a widow? What happens to a home full of girls and women who don't have men in their homes and lives?

What do they do? Where do they go? If they decide, no, I don't want to cover up. I want to protest this. Where do they end up? Do they end up in prison? Who holds the Taliban accountable? And who is holding the Taliban accountable? Is there any response from Western powers, from the UK, from America to this latest edict? idea of being feminist countries or feminist governments, countries like Norway, like Canada, who've said we have a feminist foreign policy. They have not come out and said to these women that, you know, you were asked to put your necks out, go out on a limb for 20 years, be our partners in Project Afghanistan. And these women, that's exactly what they did. They were funded, they were backed, they were supported by these Western governments. And then they were just left abandoned. And now when things are tightening, after 20 years of tasting freedom, when they were saying over and over again, when I sat down with them in Kabul and Helmand and Kandahar, when I was there in November and December, they were saying, we are not the women of the 90s. You cannot enforce these rules on us. Well, what do they do now?

That's the question. Yalda Hakeem, thank you very much. International correspondent for the BBC. The latest on what's going on in Afghanistan. We will, of course, try to stay with that story, bring any responses from such leaders that Yalda's talking about who claim to have feminist foreign policies or otherwise, and also, of course, keep you up to date

with some of the response from Afghan women themselves, as and when we can bring that to you. Now, a midwife in the UK, Anna Kent, is used to extreme pressure, and supporting women are often the most dramatic moments in their lives. But her extraordinary experience working first around the world has stood her in good stead. She was 26 when she joined Médecins Sans Frontières, or MSF as it's known, an international humanitarian organisation which gives medical assistance. Anna's first assignment was in South Sudan in 2007, then moving on to Ethiopia, Haiti and Bangladesh, the stories of which are now in a new book called Frontline

Midwife, my story of survival and keeping others safe. I caught up with Anna at the end of last week and I started by asking her about that first trip to South Sudan. It was quite a shock to the system. I'd done a lot of training. I was trained as a nurse and I was trained in tropical medicine. I'd done loads of training with MSF and then stepped aboard this flight feeling all cool going to the war zone and it was just a massive wake-up call because the South Sudan at that time was about 50 degrees centigrade at lunchtime and then we touched down and the flies come in and the heat comes in but that was when I met my first patient which was a really difficult situation. I had to learn very quickly. This lady had unfortunately suffered from an obstetric fistula,

so her baby had very sadly died in pregnancy. She'd had no access to a midwife, and the dead baby afterwards had eroded a hole that went from her vagina through to her bladder and to her bowel, so urine and faeces just constantly leaked from her. She couldn't stop it. The war zone had taken everything from her and I'd never seen human suffering to that degree before.

But on a personal level, I just had this, yeah, the wake-up call of, I'm not sure if I'm, you know, strong enough for this, if I know enough for this. Did you know how to treat her? So I didn't. I'd never seen obstetric fistula. It's not something that's very rarely seen in the UK. And the plane landed and very fortunately this brilliant MSF team around me jumped into action and she was taken off to the MSF hospital which offered emergency surgery.

But yeah, I was left sort of like catching my breath, if you can, in 50 degrees heat and realised, yep, this is, wars are very dangerous for women and a very dangerous place to be, yeah. Do you know what happened to her? Well, this was, through writing the book, one of the things I realised was I never found out what happened to her, which is horrendous. I made this mental note to myself that I would. But then you were seeing something. But then, yeah, the next day we were seeing a thousand patients a month and we went to

the next and the next and the next. But she has stayed with me ever since. And I promised myself there would never be any other woman that I treat that, first of all, I don't know how to help, but also that I don't know what her name was. There were good moments in what you were doing in terms of helping people and treating people as well as things you never expected to see. Absolutely. We saw probably about a thousand patients a month who had no other access to healthcare and it was myself and one other nurse. So we saved probably, I don't know, let's say 99% of everybody, but it is the people that didn't survive that do stay with us. One of the happiest stories, we'd had a lady came in that was clean in labour, felt onto her abdomen and it was obvious there was twins inside.

There was limbs moving everywhere, no access to ultrasounds. And the first baby was born and the second baby was born. And they survived. It was brilliant. And I felt back onto her abdomen to check that the uterus was constricted. And I was like, there's another one in there. No. Yes. And then third baby, so the triplet, she'd had two boys already,

came out head first. And they all survived, which was wonderful. And they called her Nyakawai, which essentially in New Air language means foreign woman or white woman. So let's all hope 13 years later in the war zone that Nyakawai is still alive somewhere. But that does lead us to one of the hardest points of aid work. You know, we saw her, her mum ended up having a hysterectomy, which to stem the bleeding, her placenta had grown through her uterus and there was absolutely no way, even in the UK, there was no way that we would have been able to stop her bleeding. She survived, which was fantastic, all down to the work of MSF

being there. But then, you know, after 10 days, I discharged them back to a war zone. So it's this two sides of the coin with humanitarian work. The third baby was also okay? Yeah, they all survived. A basic bit of resuscitation for Nyakawai, yes, which we had. We did have some basic kit with us. But yeah, they all survived. But then I waved them off as they walked off over the runway

in landmine fields and red cobras and black mamb members and all the things I then couldn't protect her from so it's it's brilliant to save the lives in the moment but it is really hard to discharge people back to a war. You must have been subject to so much adrenaline and and different emotions but also constantly wanting to do your your best you know as a midwife as an aid worker in this scenario how did you adjust to life back at home see I geared up so much with going like all my energy was with it and I waved my goodbyes and I'm off the do this year and was it a year it was a year each time that I went yeah I went several times um and you can't stop me and I'm an independent woman etc but I left nothing in reserve for the for coming home and and obviously everybody at home, their lives go forward.

People get, you know, their jobs are promoted and they're having children, getting married, all these wonderful things that absolutely is right for them, brilliant. But then you come back and these people that you share such intense times with are then scattered over the globe as well. So in one week I'd been in charge of this hospital and then next week I then split up very messily with an ex-partner. I wet the bed. That's another story.

And then suddenly I'm living, you know, back in... Always in the market for such stories. Wet the bed and had to poo on the side of the road, if you want. Right. All in the book. Were you not feeling great? I'd had amoebic dysentery, which doesn't do so well with your bowels but then have dairy that wasn't to do with the breakup or no well the problem was I'd gone out and got drunk and had

a pizza and it was the pizza at the end of the night that had finished me off unfortunately yeah he'd been very kind and cleaned me up but yeah and then suddenly I'm you know approaching 30 and I don't have a job and I don't have any money because it's voluntary and I'm you know back living with my parents house it's such a clash of of life experiences it's it's quite hard to like compute it um I still always can't I can't always get my head around it still and that's why writing the book has been so cathartic because actually I have you know sometimes I've coped with stress by you know drinking too much and sleeping with people I shouldn't that's the that's the truth of it um but I found writing the book has been so helpful and so healing to be able to get past

some of that the two sides of the humanitarian aid. But it also sounds like one of the the only ways to to live with what you'd seen and the experiences that you have and finding it hard to share with people at home is to to go out again to keep doing more work and you went to Haiti after the earthquake you took a job in Bangladesh in the camps for the Rohingya people I mean how how was that? I'd say the camps for stateless Rohingya in Bangladesh I hadn't seen suffering on such scale it was a population the size of Reading in the one camp there's several camps the problem is only ever increasing for the Rohingya people and we had a psychologist working with us that did a lot of group work

and we actually found there was no word for happiness anymore within the camp because the people didn't need it, which was obviously appalling. And what tends to happen in refugee camps and in war zones and statelessness is that women are often still then the bottom of the pile as well. So the women I was working with had a really, really difficult existence. So obviously childbirth within the camp of 30,000 people was also extremely complex. We had babies and mums that sadly didn't survive. And I knew after one difficult delivery,

I knew that the only way forwards was to offer safe births, which was extremely complicated. But from scratch, I created a birth unit and trained midwives. It was before Bangladesh recognised midwives in their own right. And that birth unit still runs now. Is it? Yeah. So they have about 100 live births a month. So out of the difficulty for my career, I'd say that was probably the proudest moment. But again, it's the people that I couldn't help. They're the ones, I mean, I could tell you every breath sound. I could tell you every word that was said, even now.

And I suppose you were so close to how dangerous having a baby can be. That is not what you would see in the UK most of the time. That's it. So one of the statistics at the time for South Sudan, there was an estimated one in eight women died in childbirth, and more women died in childbirth than went to secondary education, which is obviously starkly different to the NHS, which, you know, we all need to fight for the NHS. It keeps us alive.

And yes, I mean, we've had, of course, we've been covering it very closely on the programme, a maternity scandal report looking into what has happened and what shouldn't have happened. But it is still, by and large, not the majority experience that you will have seen. And with my own sort of turbulent journey

into motherhood, so I met and fell in love and got married and sadly miscarried on my wedding day, which was unfortunate. I'm sorry. And I really underestimated, I'd worked with people miscarrying for years, but I really underestimated the brutality that I found of miscarriage until it happened to me. I then was quite quickly pregnant again. And again, very sadly, my daughter Fatima, we found that she had a very rare brain tumour. It was a one in a million, a cerebral teratoma, it was called,

that she developed while still inside me, and I knew that she'd never be able to survive outside of my body. And baby loss, I mean, it still rips me in half at times. There can be moments and it just, you know, it's like a punch to the stomach. But what I can take from it is if I was a woman in a Rohingya refugee camp without a midwife or a woman in South Sudan, there are at least six ways that pregnancy would have killed me. That's the bottom line. So even though I suffer and I'm not putting on to anybody else for their suffering, that is their journey.

I'm not expecting anybody else to feel as I do. But I do have a perspective that I got to live and I got to tell the tale. You know, I was in theatre with an emergency, you know, removal of placenta and her head had grown abnormally and, you know, there were so many ways that my life was saved. And my midwife, Helen Lowenstein, who's sadly no longer with us, she saved my life both emotionally and physically. A wonderful woman.

It doesn't mean that we don't suffer, but I got to survive and tell the tale. And I am grateful for that. And I've now got my five-year-old Aisha, who's a very strong, independent woman, which is great, I know. Well, I hope you've got her listening to this programme. It's like looking in a mirror sometimes. I've only got myself to blame for single parents. I can only imagine. So you're doing that on your own?

Yeah, I'm a completely lone parent. She's a brilliant five-year-old. And I work now part-time as a nurse in the NHS and part-time as a midwife specialist, specialising in teen pregnancies in the NHS as well. In the NHS, but those two roles? Yeah, I find that the two roles work for me. It keeps the balance somehow. And yet, you know, with the backdrop and the experience

of seeing women in such different scenarios, it must just give you a different complexion a different view. It does but actually being a midwife is about being with women and and in some ways it shouldn't matter the context because what we want is safe maternity care to connect with women in a way that is important with them and keep them and their babies safe. Do you think you'll ever go back to some of those war zones and some of those places? I did. After the third mission, which was to Bangladesh, I had had some form of a mental breakdown.

I'd had a hallucination or a flashback and I knew that mentally I was quite unwell. I could see what was in front of me, but all sensory. I could smell and I could feel that I was in the refugee camp, which was quite scary. So I had felt that I'd retired from aid work at that point. But now, I mean, lone parenting, not at the moment. So the part of the importance of the book, I felt the philosophy of témoignage. So you bear witness to humanitarian atrocities, but then you speak out on their behalf.

So I feel I'm doing the speaking out part of it now. But whether or not, I don't know, when Aisha's 18, I have started to just wonder if that's in my future again, but let's see. She's started, I bet it might be. Anna Kent, the book is called Frontline Midwife, my story of survival and keeping others safe and very powerful indeed it is. Well, let's go to the court case that has gripped not just America, but much of the world, if that's something that you have been following. And I should also say it's been dividing people. Depp versus Heard. The actor Johnny Depp suing his ex-wife, the actor Amber Heard,

for defamation over an article in which she said she was a victim of abuse. This is the second time, of course, the pair have been in court following a libel trial in 2020 here in the UK when Johnny Depp lost his case against The Sun newspaper. Well, before I speak to the BBC's Holly Honduric, who's been following every step of this trial and also the reactions online to it, we can hear a couple of the key moments.

This is when Amber Heard took to the stand at the end of last week and said a perceived affair with fellow actor James Franco led to Johnny Depp assaulting her on a cross-country flight in 2040. He sits down in front of me at one point and because I'm not answering him I was looking out of the window and he slaps my face and his friend is in our proximity. And it didn't hurt my face. It just felt embarrassed. Johnny Depp has already given evidence in the trial, and he testified that he had never hit Amber Heard. Never did I myself reach the point of striking Ms Heard in any way,

nor have I ever struck any woman in my life. Holly Hondrick is here, the BBC's Holly Hondrick. Good morning. Good morning, how are you doing? Thank you for joining us. And just I know I gave the brief introduction there, but can you tell us a bit more about why Johnny Depp just first of all is suing his ex-wife Amber Heard for defamation? So Amber Heard actually months after the court case in the UK, Amber Heard wrote an article for the Washington Post newspaper in the States talking about how she felt culture's wrath after suffering domestic abuse. She doesn't name anyone, doesn't name her ex-husband or any man for that matter, but she doesn't make reference to experiencing this two years ago, two years ago being the year that she filed for divorce against

Johnny Depp. So he says that that article made him suffer from immense damage in his career to his reputation. And that's why he's suing. And she's immense damage in his career to his reputation. And that's why he's suing. And she's suing back actually for double the amount. He's suing for 50 million. She's suing for 100. So they're sort of both trying to state their case now in Virginia. Yeah, there's a there's a countersuit on that point. And the trial, of course, has been capturing a lot of people's attention. It's on a break. Is that right this week?

Yes. There's a jurors conference this week. So they'll resume on Monday, next Monday. And how much longer is this expected to go on for? The about three more weeks, there's a holiday here in the States at the end of May. And the judge who I think is really trying to keep things moving for the jurors has promised them they'll be off for the holiday weekend. I don't know how that's going to happen. The number of objections are sort of incredible. Like the lawyers clearly are really doing their best to advocate for their side. So every sort of question, you'll hear an objection. So things are really slowly moving along.

So it's a defamation trial, but which means it's different in many ways, of course, to if there was a trial about whether abuse has taken place or not. But in effect, that's what's happening. It's a proxy trial for that. Absolutely. And same with the case in the UK, right? I mean, Amber Heard wasn't a defendant. She wasn't on the suit in the UK. It was between Johnny Depp and The Sun's publishers. But that's what it became, right? Because to prove whether or not you're relying or not, you have to prove whether or not abuse occurred. I was speaking to some lawyers last week, and it seems like Johnny Depp's argument may actually be more difficult.

Whether or not he's winning in the court of public opinion is a different question, but he has to prove essentially that no abuse of any form occurred. Because Amber Heard's op-ed that's at issue here, she didn't say, I was punched, I was kicked, I was slapped, she said I was abused. So whether or not that includes emotional abuse,

sexual abuse, physical abuse, that remains to be seen. And I think that might give her a slight advantage actually with jurors. And there's been evidence from a nurse and a psychologist with regards to Amber Heard's mental health. What was said there? So I should clarify that we had heard from the couple's joint therapist who discussed you know a system or a relationship that was marked by mutual abuse um she did say that she felt that amber heard was the aggressor um and sort of egged johnny depp on but i think the psychologist you're referring to i should make sure it's clear that was hired by johnny depp's team she spent about 12 hours with

amber heard she diagnosed amber with not one but two personality disorders, saying she had borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder, sort of a disease marked by instability, made her incredibly volatile. The diagnosis was entirely in line with Johnny Depp's argument. Like there was, it was sort of as if it was layered on top perfectly, that she was so scared of being abandoned by Johnny Depp, she would do anything to keep him in the room with her, including physical violence. And then we heard from a nurse as well, who said that Amber Heard was also incredibly volatile, sort of danger to self and others. And then we heard from yet another psychologist, this one

hired by Amber Heard's side, who disputed the diagnoses of any kind of personality disorder and said that Amber Heard had PTSD actually from her relationship with Johnny Depp so it's sort of it really depends who you believe I think you had two psychologists sort of at war with each other in the same same trial. I think what we're also not that used to is is hearing from those on the stand you know while they're actually on trial. You know, it's extraordinary to watch this footage, isn't it? Yeah, it's bizarre. I mean, you should say in the States, criminal cases,

it would not be televised like this. I think I've been seeing on Twitter, like, why wasn't the Ghislaine Maxwell trial televised? This is a cover-up. That's not true. This is a civil trial. That's why this is able to be televised. I'm not sure what the judge was thinking when she approved this do you think that do you think that's a decision that will be questioned because of some of the testimony particularly from Amber it might be I do think that both of them you know she has said on the stand and after the UK trial I don't

want to be here and I I believe her but but I do think they both want their story heard. I mean, Johnny Depp, that's why he's here, right? He wants his name cleared. So I don't think either. I think they both might question how much they wanted their text messages read out to, you know, I, every day I log onto the live stream for work and there's about 60,000 people in the waiting room on YouTube, right?

This is one of many live streams really kind of multiply that there's people lining up at four in the morning in Virginia before the courthouse so I think they both might question whether or not this was all worth it um but the judge's decision I think they probably both know it'd be covered just breathlessly even if you couldn't watch it all live so that's a good question I think the judge is incredibly competent, frankly, and she's probably feeling solid in her decision. It's also in my mind, because tomorrow I'm going to be talking to Susie Miller,

who's the playwright behind a relatively new play in the West End here in London, Prima Fasci, starring Jodie Comer. Rave reviews, Susie used to be a criminal defence lawyer before turning to theatre, and it's looking at the flaws of the legal system, dealing with victims and alleged victims of sexual assault. And it particularly centres in on the portrayal of women and how they come across. And it's in my mind about how the system works and how women are portrayed. And if they do get the chance to tell their story, does that wrestle back i mean have you had a sense having watched so much of this and covering it live for us for the bbc of things changing as it's gone along it's really interesting i mean as you said it's sort of like

a proxy battle right this is not on the face of a sexual assault trial i'm so interested by the fact that you have two entirely different tales right and how does a jury take that in like essentially with like maybe minor overlap in terms of the first days of their dating Johnny Depp and Amber Heard are telling entirely different stories so I think maybe to your point or your question how does a jury wrestle with an accusation of sexual emotional physical assault that's just being denied by everyone else right, how do you take that in when you're balancing probabilities? What I'm seeing is incredible is the amount of young women on TikTok, on YouTube, on Twitter, who are so ferociously defensive of Johnny Depp. I didn't move on to a point where women, perhaps my age, would never want to publicly be seen not believing women, right? We've kind of moved forward that way. And this seems to be a blind spot. People seem to be really happy

and proud to defend Johnny Depp. We have sort of crass examples, I think, of his defense in a really sort of intimate and upsetting trial. People at Starbucks have tip jars with Johnny Depp in an Amber Heard jar. And people are just happily putting money

in the Johnny Depp jar. Like things like that, I've never seen before. The Harvey Weinstein trial, for example, you weren't seeing that kind of mummification of really upsetting details of an intimate relationship. I suppose what you're drawing on there is where this may end up, which is regardless almost of the verdict in this particular case,

which again, we should say is a defamation case, is that the court is the trial of public opinion. Because as you say, two starkly different stories. Exactly. But I think I sort of came away from last week, I was stunned after Amber Heard took the stand for the first time, we're finally hearing from her. I'm thinking, okay, maybe things will shift, right, in public discourse, because she's actually telling her own story. Not the case. You know, people saying she's crying crocodile tears she's an actress she's a bad actress it's all phony but again the lawyers I was speaking to have said that essentially this is their opinion for Johnny Depp

to win the jury has to disregard everything she said like they have to think not one instance of this is real that would be stunning to me if If really they looked at this woman and said, that's it, not one word coming out of your mouth, it's believable to us. Well, it's on a break, as we've said this week. It's probably a break for you as well in the covering of this, but thank you. Do come back and talk to us again

a few more weeks left in this Holly Hondrick for the BBC there on Depp versus Hurt. Now, talking about where this began in terms of what was being written about, the power of words, which is what's centred at the heart of that, let's talk about what it might be like to run a magazine these days. It's certainly not quite what it used to be. Reader numbers in decline, social media taking up much more of younger women's lives than anything else.

My next guest, you could say, has her work cut out. Kenya Hunt, editor-in-chief at Elle UK, and her first cover of the magazine has just dropped. Kenya, good morning. Good morning, Emma. How are you? Okay, belated congratulations for the role. And I suppose when I say you've got your work cut out, I mean, how do you see it?

How do you sell it now with those numbers only going one way of magazines? Well, you know, I'll say that we've got, you know, because we're across so many platforms. So we've got the print edition, but we also have digital. So we reach, you know, 1.96 million across print and digital each month and 8.2 million across social media. So we've still, you know, we've got a really large engaged following. And so, you know, for me coming into Elle fresh, you know, I think it's a really fascinating time to be editing a title like Elle as we're emerging from a chapter in all of our lives that frankly has been really destabilizing. excitement and apprehension and anticipation around everything that we do right now. You know, everything from the way we get dressed and navigating hybrid working feels new. I mean, you were mentioning Prima Facie. I just went to the theater two weeks ago for the first time in two years.

So everything has that heightened sense of newness to it. And I think that presents a lot of great opportunity and possibility for us at Elle. So, you know, I'm really looking forward to editing Elle during this post-pandemic chapter and exploring all these new threads. I mentioned your first cover. Tell us, what did you go for and why? Yeah, so Sophie Turner, you know, Sophie Turner is very much an Elle woman. She is someone who's navigating her career with a family. She's been very open and honest about her struggles with mental health and body dysmorphia and social media. And so I think, you know, for all these reasons, you know, she's very much an L woman.

But I should also add that the covers are planned quite far in advance. So the discussions around Sophie began before I even joined the building. But that said, you know, I've met Sophie. You know, I think she's wonderful. She epitomizes the old woman to me. So she's the actor, of course, if people are not familiar. And she's showing her baby bump in this particular photo. I know there are other images alongside it.

And obviously it follows a trend of people, you know, that it's not a new trend, but there's been maybe a bigger flurry of it recently of women showing off uh the bumps and not least of course Rihanna looking stunning and so many of those poses and photos why do you think that's still an image that you would try and hope perhaps get new readers through the door to well I think it's you know again you know she there's something about that sense of motherhood and the way that it has evolved and it is evolving. You know, a lot of L readers are now, you know, facing motherhood for the first time in their lives. Sophie Turner's expecting her a new baby, but I think also that sense of newness in terms of pregnancy and also this, where we are in this

chapter in our lives is we're kind of like trying to navigate our way forward and figure out what's next and entering this kind of sense of the great unknown, this idea of the great what next. I thought she kind of visualized that in a really strong way. But then again, you know, Elle has often, you know, we like to sort of lean into these discussions that feel very much of the moment and that reflect the mood of right now.

And this is a new decade for us that has, you know, the word unprecedented has been used so much that it often feels like cliche. And we're just, you know, these are really unprecedented times for us. And so I think that idea of childbirth and, you know, knowing how unpredictable that be um is a kind of nice visual sort of counterpart to that have you um have you done anything that we need to know about in terms of devil wears prada etc since becoming editor or any of that i mean i'm aware people reading a bit about those editors perhaps in different ways and not the most flattering ways at times? That's such a very good question. I think the culture of women's magazines have changed just as drastically

as you were talking about the platforms that we consume the storytelling on. The culture has changed a lot as well. So I do think long gone are the days of the editor storming through the office and walking into her sort of corner office. And, you know, we have an open plan office, we hot desk. But also, I think, you know, just culturally, you know, we've got a really nice, positive, sisterly culture over at Elle. OK, so, I mean, also recently, you probably have to storm through your own home never mind an office exactly exactly that's what i was you know going back to what i said before hybrid

working everything is in flux everything has changed particularly in the past two years and so it's you know it's a really fascinating time to be an editor because there's so much to unpack and dig into well you know i hope you can still get a coffee from, even if it's just your other half or whoever you live with, because you've got to have that. Come on, you've got to still have that in the role. Well, we look forward to seeing what you do with that position and some of the next covers and decisions that come, as you say, in these unprecedented times.

Kenya Hunt, congratulations again, the editor-in-chief of LUK. Many messages coming in about the power of, in particular, music, which is what we started today's discussion with Emily Sandé. And a lovely one here saying, I'm in my 50s and I've just completed a master's in music therapy. Using music as therapy resonates totally with Emily's description of music as a bridge between realms. Wasn't that a gorgeous description?

Music opens bridges for me to meet people emotionally and to offer a holding hand. What a lovely one. And just this is so powerful from Philip. A good morning to you. I was adopted as a baby. My birth father was Libyan, but I was adopted by an English family with blonde hair and blue eyes, while I had olive skin, black hair and brown eyes. And on my first trip to an Arab country, to Tunisia,

I remember drinking mint tea in an Arabic cafe surrounded by people who looked like me while Umm Kultum was playing on the cafe speakers, an Egyptian singer. It overwhelmed me and I started crying. My holiday companion explained it brilliantly. She said, half your heart has come home. Gosh, the power of music. many more i have to say messages

coming in just about it taking you somewhere else whether to the heart of a story or an emotion you couldn't access yet thank you so much as always for your company today i'll be back with you tomorrow at 10 that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Dr. Michael Mosley. And in my podcast, Just One Thing, I'm investigating some quick, simple and surprising ways to improve your health and life. From eating some dark chocolate. That was really good.

To improve your heart. To playing video games. To enhance your brain power. Oh, dear. I've been slaughtered, your brain power, or singing your favourite songs to bolster your immune system. So to benefit your brain and body in ways you might not expect, here's just one thing you can do right now. Subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.