Woman's Hour - Emergency C-sections, Hannah Murray, Strip clubs

Episode Date: June 5, 2026

The way women give birth is changing, according to BBC analysis, which has discovered that one in four births in England are now emergency caesareans. The current figure is 26% - an increase of 8% in the past five years - and the rate of elective caesareans has also gone up. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists say the system is struggling to cope with this increased level of unplanned surgeries. To discuss what's behind the rise and the potential impact on women, presenter Kylie Pentelow is joined by BBC Health Correspondent Catherine Burns, President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Dr Alison Wright, and Helen Cheyne who’s a Professor of Maternal and Infant Health Research at the University of Stirling. Hannah Murray was at the height of her fame as an actor in 2016, having found fame as the much-loved Cassie in E4’s teen drama Skins, she was now a regular in the HBO fantasy series Game of Thrones as Gilly. But behind the scenes Hannah was struggling with her mental health, and she found herself involved in an organisation which offered courses in magical healing. The following year, Hannah was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She’s since retired from acting and written a memoir about those turbulent times, called The Make-Believe – A Memoir of Magic and Madness. Women’s rights charity FiLiA has launched a new national campaign to get Sexual Entertainment Venues, commonly referred to as strip clubs, off the streets. This is informed by new research examining how the venues are viewed and experienced by women living, working and moving nearby. They spoke to more than 700 women across Cardiff, Edinburgh and Manchester, with 55% of women opposed to the venues, and 8% expressing supportive views. Dr Laura Favaro, Director of Research at FiLiA, joins Kylie to discuss their report. The female CEO of dating app Hinge has said that Gen Z "need AI to start conversations on dating apps because they lack the confidence of older generations". Jackie Jantos told the BBC that daters in their 20s are spending less time with other people, compared to two decades ago, has affected their ability to meet and chat in person. To discuss whether AI could help or hinder dating, and the challenges of meeting people IRL, Kylie is joined by author and journalist Olivia Petter and Jessica Evans, founder of events company BODA, which stands for Bored of Dating Apps.And BBC Music correspondent Mark Savage joins us to discuss the breaking news that Kayna King, the entrepreneur and founder of the Mobo awards, has died aged 57 from colon cancer. The Mobo Organisation called her one of the UK music industry's "most fearless champions". Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program this Friday morning. have your company. Coming up today, new BBC figures show a quarter of all babies in England are now delivered by Emergency Caesarian, a significant rise over the last five years. We'll be finding out why there's been this increase and how it impacts mothers and babies. Also, one woman's rights charity is campaigning to get strip clubs off the streets because of what they say is the impact

these clubs have on women living and working nearby. Plus, the boss of a leading dating app says people in their 20s need to use AI to make the first move with potential partners because they lack the confidence of older generations. So if you're single, do you struggle to initiate a conversation with someone you're attracted to? Would AI help you? Or maybe you'd avoid that at all costs. Or indeed, we'd like to hear your story of how you made that first move. How did you start that crucial chat with someone you went on to have a relationship with? You can text the program. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, and you can email us through our website.

Or indeed, send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. That number is 0300-100-444. Also coming up, we'll hear from Hannah Murray of Skins and Game of Thrones fame. She talks about her mental health and how she found herself involved in an organisation which offer courses in magical healing. But first, BBC analysis shows there's been a major shift in how women in England are giving birth, with emergency cesarean sections now making up more than a quarter of deliveries. The figure is currently at 26% of births, which is up from 18% five years ago, and the rate of elective cesareans has also increased.

Now, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists says the system is struggling to cope with the increase in unplanned surgery, So what's going on here? Why the rise and what impact is this having on women? With me in the studio first is BBC Health correspondent Catherine Burns, who's been looking into this. Welcome back to Women's Hour, Catherine. Thanks, Kylie. So can you tell us what counts as an emergency caesarean? This is a really important question because I think women can hear that and think this is going to be alarms blaring.

I'm being rushed down the corridor on a trolley. And that is part of the picture, but it's only part of it. So there are three kinds of emergency cesarean. Category one is when there is an immediate risk to the life of the mother or baby. And that kind of delivery, that needs to happen within no more than half an hour. Then there's category two, less serious. They've got about 75 minutes to deliver the baby. And at the other end of the scale is category three.

There's no time limit there. That's where they want an early birth, but there's no immediate risk there. That could be something like labour not progressing. So that's what we're talking about when we're talking about. emergency cesareans, any and all of those. So we were saying that these unplanned surgeries have increased quite considerably in the last five years. Do we know the reasons behind this? The simple answer and the short one is no, we don't. So NHS England does not record

data on why these emergency cesareans happen. So we don't know what stage they happen. We don't know if it's arising category three, category ones, what kind of conditions are causing it. But some experts will point to the fact that women, they're getting older, they're getting heavier when they give birth, they're more likely to have underlying health problems. All of those things are true. But those things have been true for years now and they've been changing very slowly. So that will be contributing to this rise. But it isn't really enough to fully explain what's going on. Another thing that is really important to explore is race because the average might be one in four across the country.

it's actually one in three for black and Asian moms. So there's obviously something going on there. I think really, though, we need to look kind of at this slightly sideways because there's attitudes change. There's been cultural shifts about C-sections. You know, for years NHS trusts were told keep C-section rates low. That guidance only changed four years ago. And also, we can't ignore that there's been several high-profile maternity safety scandals.

And one theme that was running throughout those was often a kind of reluctance. to perform emergency, sorry, not emergency, cesareans full stop. Then there's litigation. Sorry, I know I'm bombarding you with stuff, but this is a complex picture. So maternity claims against the NHS

have gone up by 11% in five years. So there's a lot going on there. There's a lot of sort of negative talk about maternity. Now, some doctors have said to me, this doesn't impact my work at all. I'm just always now, as I have been in the past, focus on the safety of the mother and baby. But others up and down the country have said,

actually, I don't want to be the next scandal. I don't want to get things wrong. Sometimes it's easier to act to do that surgery rather than to sit and to watch and wait. So all of these things are building into it. So they could potentially be criticised for not carrying out the cesarean section, but potentially not criticised for carrying it? Actually, yeah, that's something that's come up in some of the experts I've spoken to. They say in court, you don't get criticised for not doing a surgery.

You do get criticised for not doing it. We should point out that these are figures for England. So what's the picture in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? The figures for those countries are not quite as up to date, but the most recent we've got are 22% in Scotland, 20% in Wales and 16% in Northern Ireland. There is an interesting thing as well about how we compare internationally. So at Oxford University, there is the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit.

That essentially researches the care of women and babies during pregnancy and birth. And that has compared C-section rates, both planned and emergency, across 42 countries. In 2020, they said that England was the 14th highest. By 2025, it had gone up to 9th highest. And they say that, you know, these other countries are not seeing the kind of rise that we're seeing in England right now, even though they are having older mums, heavier mums and all of those issues as well. Does having a cesarean section make birth safer for mother and for baby? Do you know, this is a really, really difficult question to get right.

Every single person I spoke to about this story was really keen to stress that these operations can and absolutely do save lives. But there is the question about what impact is this having on a wider scale? And I think, you know, you might expect that as these rights were rising for emergency cesareans, you might see a kind of mirroring fall in bad outcomes. So I'd be talking there about really rare but horrible things like stillbirths, neonatal deaths. Those things over the last five years, they've held pretty steady. Same with sort of maternal complications, complications during labour, like things like blood loss or fetal distress. Those things aren't really shifting.

So it is hard right now to see the impact of this. Okay. Let's bring in Dr. Alison Wright, who's the president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Kynacologists, and also Helen Cheen, who's a professor of maternal and infant health research at the University of Sterling. Welcome to Women's Hour to both of you. I should say you're both part of the task force to oversee improvements to NHS maternity and neonatal care in England, which is chaired by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care till recently Westreting, of course, now James Murray. Alison, can I start with you?

For any woman listening who may be thinking about having a child or indeed pregnant at the moment, who may be worried about some of these statistics, can you reassure them? Yeah, absolutely. So I went into this job to make sure that every woman has a safe, compassionate and high quality personalised care and experience. And when I see women in clinic, that's exactly what I say to them. We all take it in turns to be on call on the labour ward. 24 hours a day, there is a senior midwife and a senior doctor and we will look after you. I think it's really interesting to note these changes in cesarean births. And as Cass has said, sometimes when we class a birth as an emergency cesarian, that might be an unplanned cesarian, but it may be just because the day of the cesarean has not been reached and therefore we're doing it the day before. So we really do need to look into this data

more carefully. You've been delivering babies for over 35 years. How many cesareans are you seeing now compared to maybe a couple of decades ago? We're certainly see more cesarians now. And that's partly because we are better at detecting when a baby is not coping well in labour. So for safety reasons, partly because medicine has advanced. So we are seeing women with underlying complexities, medical conditions being pregnant, which is great. We're also facilitating informed choice much better than we used to when I started. So I think there are some really positive aspects to this. But still, as you can see from Marion Knight's data, we've talked about, And certainly speaking to my colleagues around the world, because we are a global college, so we have members in many countries, we are seeing globally arise in cesarean rates.

But certainly we are seeing a sharper increase at the moment. And we need to do more to understand that. I would say what's really important at the moment is while we try to understand this better, which we need to, we also need to make sure that we resource our services. So currently we are resourced for service that I use. started with 35 years ago when we had a cesarean rate of 15%. So we have seen the volume of work double or triple means we need more staff, means we need more theatre capacity. Today, we don't have those extra resources. So I'm really concerned that we do make sure we invest. And we will do that, hopefully through the task force, that's the aim, is that we work with obstetricians,

midwives and families all around the table to really deliver those improvements in maternity care that we all want to see. Before I come to Helen, I just want to get a bit of clarification on that from you, Catherine. There is a financial implication, isn't there for the NHS on this? It does cost more. Yeah, I mean, I am always slightly nervous

about bringing in the relative costs of giving birth because you give birth how you need to give birth. But I did speak to Professor Ed Wilson, who's a health economist at the University of Exeter. he's crunch some NHS data for us and has figured out that a routine vaginal delivery would cost about £4,800. A planned caesarian, and this is what I think is really interesting,

he would say it's an average of about £6,000. But he estimates that the unplanned emergency caesarians, they cost £9,000. So I think the thing to focus on here is if there was a way of anticipating these things in advance, then there would be that immediate sort of drop in price. So that would be the focus there, I'd say. Helen, so you worked as an NHS midwife in Glasgow for 20 years,

just listening to what Alison was saying there. Was it a similar picture of what you experienced? Morning. Yes, I predate Alison, I think, by some years. So I trained as a midwife in 1980 in Glasgow. And at that time, the Caesarean section rate, planned, unplanned was around about 11%. But you have to remember that also the stillbirth rate was double what it is now

and that pernatal death rate was a lot higher. So a lot has changed. We have to be watching this rise in Caesarean section. It's an unavaluated change. We don't fully know why it's happening. there's a lot of reasons as you have said so we need to be alert to it but is it a good thing

is it a bad thing we need more data to find that out it's obviously not you know the easy option is it as I think maybe years ago it was kind of assumed cesarean sections do have a big impact on the mother

I can say that from personal experience So what is the impact on women of having a cesarean physically and mentally? That's to Helen. I think we have to go back to the impact. It will depend on the reason why the women had a cesarean section. And there'll be a big difference between a woman who had a planned caesarian where there's been an opportunity to hopefully get supports into place and be organised and planned for that, hopefully,

from a woman who has an unplanned caesarian section. And I think a lot of how it impacts on a woman will be about whether she feels this was something that was done to her or something that was done with her. So whether a woman felt that she had choices or, you know, what options were explained to us. I think it's very important. And in almost every circumstance, I think we would recognize that, you know,

changes and decisions about care need to be made in as much as possible in partnership with a woman. But for both types of cesarean section, you're absolutely right. You know, you're having a major abdominal surgery and at the same time you're taking home a newborn baby. And so that's a major impact and quite a long-term impact. There are longer-term impacts of having cesarean sections at all.

And I think it's, for that reason, I think it's quite important that we don't just consider the door to the labour ward and the door out of the labour ward is where all of this starts and finishes. Much of the, certainly much of the impact of cesarean section will happen in the postnatal period. And so we really need to look at resources in postnatal care, which have been depleted over many years. And now in the situation where almost 50% of women are having a cesarean section, you know, that really needs to change. We were talking earlier about the reports expected later this month, an independent report into maternity services at Notting University Hospital's Trust. And the Amos report following a nationwide investigation launched by the government last year. Alison, what could happen do you think in the next five years? Do you think the numbers of emergencies, cesareans, will continue to rise?

Well, what we're aiming through the task force, ostracians, midwives, families altogether, is that we see that sustained improvement in maternity services that we want to see. And when the recommendations come out, I'm very much hoping that that will be our real opportunity to improve maternity services. So we really have the time and the resource to do what we all want. want to do, which is to listen to women to give women proper, informed choice, exactly as Helen said, so that women are prepared for their choices as they go into labour. Helen, just finally from you, what do you think should be the new health secretary's top priority in terms of improving maternity services?

It has to be resources, it has to be staffing, it has to be adequate staffing, skill mix, education, I think we need to consider the whole maternity journey. Currently, the high rates of induction of labour and cesarean section draws everything into the core and is causing strains on all parts of the service. Okay, thank you so much for speaking to me. That's Dr Alison Wright, President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologist, Helen Cheen, Professor of Maternal and Infant Health Research at the University of Stirling, and of course to BBC Health Correspondent Catherine Burns.

And if you are listening and have any concerns about your own pregnancy, please do, of course, contact your GP or your midwife. And I should also just say that the Department of Health and Social Care gave us this statement. They said emergency C-sections can be life-saving, but as with all operations, they can pose health risks for mother and baby, decisions are made by considering individual circumstances and clinical advice to ensure the safest and most appropriate approach for each birth. Now, Hannah Murray was at the height of her fame as an actor in 2016, having played the much-loved Cassie in Eiffel's teen drama skins. She was now a regular in the HBO fantasy series Game of Thrones as Gilly.

However, behind the scenes, Hannah was struggling with her mental health, and she felt, found herself involved in an organisation which offered courses in magical healing. Well, the following year, Hannah was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. She's since retired from acting and written a memoir about those turbulent times called The Make Believe, a memoir of magic and madness. Well, Hannah joined Anita, who asked her how working on a film called Detroit led to her seeking out a reiki healer. It was actually when I got cast in Detroit, it strangely threw me into. quite a bleak, depressive period, which was something I'd struggled with throughout my life

from kind of adolescence onwards. But I was really confused by the fact that it came off the back of something so good happening. And I didn't, I sort of a few days after getting this part, which was so exciting. You know, it was Catherine Bigelow directing and it was the biggest job I'd ever gotten, really. I didn't understand why I was feeling so down

and why I sort of couldn't be happy about this incredible achievement. And so then I thought I've tried so many things like I was always exercising, I was eating well, I was doing a lot of stuff to try and kind of take care of myself, but I thought, well, I've never really tried meditation, and I've never really tried that kind of side of things. So it felt really exciting and new, and I was getting a lot out of it. So when I was filming Detroit, by which point I was feeling great again and I was loving doing that job. But the material we were shooting in the film was very heavy based on a true story.

It's based on real events and they're very dark, very difficult events to depict on film. And we filmed a scene in which my dress was ripped off my body. And because of the nature of filming, you do it again and again and again from different angles, you do multiple takes. And so I sort of lost count of how many times I had my dress ripped off. And although I kept telling myself, this is pretend, it's not pretend in a physical sense. So my body was really experiencing that. And you were really being exposed. And I was really being exposed, yeah, in a very literal way.

And that night I woke up from terrible nightmares and sort of threw up in the hotel bathroom and I was just like really definitively sort of not okay and I was seeing a personal trainer in Boston where we were shooting and she said oh I know this energy healer maybe that would like help you right now and I and I was just very curious about it and sort of open minded about it because of the stuff I'd been delving into in the previous months so I thought okay I'll go along to see this healer and if nothing else it'll be an interesting story I can tell people about that one weird time I went to see an energy healer but it was a lot more than I expected it was a really life-altering experience I suppose so what were you searching for then from then because that led you to take

courses in healing yeah I think I was I mean when I had that first healing it left me with a belief in magic. And I think magic can be quite a difficult word to define. I think sometimes when I describe the book to people and I use the word magic, they sort of say, what do you mean? Like rabbits out of hats. But I think I'd always had this kind of longing that I think a lot of people have was children.

You know, we read books about magic. We read about kind of a fictional magic and we think, oh, how amazing would it be if that was real? and then when I had this healing, I felt a invisible force moving my body, which was something I did not expect to experience, had never experienced anything like it in my life. And so I just felt like, oh, this is magic, this is what magic must feel like. And so I just, really, it was wanting more of that kind of transcendent,

almost otherworldly feeling. And I thought that could be the thing that could really fix me. and fix these up and down moods and these periods of feeling really down and sad and awful. And I just thought, this is it. This is the answer to everything. So you took the course in healing and initially you thought you found what you were looking for. Yes. So what went wrong? So I took two courses.

The first one I took was a two day course, which I really, really loved and which gave me some sort of rituals I could do day to day in my own. life at home and kind of I found those really positive and then a few months after that I took a week long course where I was learning how to perform the healing that I'd received in Boston which I was very excited about and didn't again didn't quite know what to expect to what it would be like and didn't quite believe I could really end up with the power to sort of heal other people but was excited by the possibility that I could and that I could sort of give something good into the world, help other people, help my friends, help my family, whatever it was. And then again, it was a lot more intense that experience than I had expected.

And as the days progressed, it was such an overwhelmingly magical experience. but by the midpoint of the week I had started hearing voices, which I thought was part of the magic. And I thought it was incredible to be hearing voices. And I thought, oh my God, I've like broken through to this whole new reality where I have all this guidance and this insight. And then on the final day of the course, I would say that my mind and my sense of reality completely broke down.

Yeah, you had a psychotic. I did have a psychotic episode, yes. And you were sectioned? I was sectioned. I spent three weeks on a psychiatric ward. When you were in a psychiatric hospital, your friends and family were coming to see you, but you were delusional at that stage? I was profoundly delusional, yeah.

I was... What do you remember? Tell us. I mean, I remember a lot of different things. There were different phases to those delusions. But, I mean, I think in the very earliest days of being in hospital, I would say I probably didn't know my own name. I didn't understand that I was in hospital because I thought that I was the savior of the universe. I thought that I had saved the world and we were now in this utopian paradise that I was a sort of ruler of.

And it was very confusing because I, you know, I was in hospital and I wasn't allowed to leave and I kind of couldn't understand why there were limits on where I could go. but I was sort of convinced that the plan would eventually unfold and become clear to me. How long before you came out of that mindset? It's slightly difficult to say because by the time I left hospital, I understood that I had been sectioned. I understood that I was in a psychiatric ward and I understood who I was and, you know, my friends and family were visiting me, I understood who they were.

But I still thought, well, what's really going on underneath all of this? is that I've saved the planet. And it took a really gradual process. And I think most recovery is gradual, it isn't linear, and it's very two steps forward, one step back. And it was really important to me to try and depict that accurately in my memoir. So what was it about that experience

that made you want to write it down? I just couldn't stop thinking about it. I could not get over it. I could not process it. I could not understand it. There was so much kind of mystery. to me and what had happened. I didn't have clear explanations.

I didn't have a kind of rational understanding. And so it was only, it was about a year and a half after I left hospital. I was living in L.A. at that point and I took my laptop to a coffee shop. And I thought, let's just try writing about this. Because I had lots of memories. I had a lot of very vivid memories,

but they didn't make sense to me. And I thought maybe if I get them all out, I was really just writing for myself at that point. I didn't think I was writing a book. But I thought I can get these down. I can sort of examine everything that happened around then that I remember. And that will hopefully lead me to some answers. It's definitely led to a very extraordinary memoir.

Thank you. But you decided not to act anymore. Yeah, that happened a little bit after I started writing for various reasons. but partly it was that I fell in love with writing so much and I thought I really want this to be my full-time focus. And also I found the audition process, particularly in L.A., it wasn't good for me. It wasn't having gone through something like that

and feeling so kind of for a time sort of destroyed by that experience, I couldn't go into auditions and be this kind of shiny, happy, like, upbeat, please give me a job person. I'd gained quite a lot of weight from the medication I'd been on hospital. I found I was really uncomfortable in my body. I was very self-conscious of what casting directors or producers thought about me.

And I had this sort of secret that I felt was hanging over me. And ultimately, stepping away from acting has been such a positive decision and really, really good for my well-being, my mental health overall, I think. Do you think that body image,

body shaming still significant issues for female actors. I think 100%. I think anyone that tells you the industry doesn't have an issue with that anymore is lying. I think you see it. It's like slightly disguised maybe from how it was in like the 90s or the 90s with the kind of tabloid like body shaming stuff. But I think it's still there. I think you still see it everywhere. Yeah, I think it's really, really hard to be a woman in the public eye.

and if you lose weight, everyone will tend to applaud it. Well, they might also have opinions about that that are negative. But when I was doing the press tour for the final series of Game of Thrones, there were a lot of stories speculating that I was pregnant. And I remember thinking... How old were you? I was... How old was I then?

Maybe late 20s. And I remember thinking, oh, that's the only acceptable way you can gain weight as a woman in the public eye is to be pregnant. And I wasn't pregnant. And I also didn't feel like they should be allowed to comment on my body in that way. So yeah, that was a big, I think that was a big turning point actually. That was kind of around the time when I decided, I think I need to step back from this industry. I think I want to take a break. But that break has never stopped. It's still ongoing. Is this your future now writing? I hope. So yeah, that's the plan. It's just lots more books. I'm really so in love with writing and I feel like I can, it allows me to kind of build a much more stable life around it than acting did. So it feels much better for me. And how are you? I'm good. Yeah. And well. I'm, I'm, sometimes I think my kind of, myself in my 20s would look at me now and think, God, you're so boring. But I quite like a kind of quieter, more routine.

life, I don't drink anymore. Like there's, you know, there's a lot of kind of drinking and drug use in the book because that was what my 20s were like. And I think now things are simpler, things are quieter, but I'm so much happier for that. That was Hannah Murray speaking to Anita there and her book is called The Make Believe. If you've been affected by issues raised in that interview, you can find links to support and advice on the BBC Action Line website. The Signal Awards recognised the podcast that. define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for

podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Now we've been asking for your stories about initiating conversations when dating. It's because the boss of a dating app says 20-somethings need AI to start conversations. So lots of you have been getting in touch on this.

This one here says, I'm 24 and single. I moved to a new city a few months ago. I found it quite difficult meeting. new people. As much as I don't want to be on the dating apps, it feels like that's the only way for me to find romance. To meet people organically, I've joined a run club and started evening classes at the local college after work. And they go and say, I won't lie. I have used AI to help form the dreaded, it's not you, it's me text. And then Georgia got in touch to say, AI is the last thing we need in dating. I'm 28 and have found dating apps and their algorithms

have completely taken the fun and connection out of dating since the rise of dating apps, I found people have lost the ability to approach each other in person and start a fun conversation. She says people are craving this more now. I met my partner at a music festival. Thanks very much for your comments. Don't forget you could text Woman's Hour. Usual number 84844 and WhatsApp is 0-3700-100-444. Now the women's rights charity Philea has begun a new national campaign to get sexual entertainment venues, more commonly referred to as strip clubs, off the streets. It's informed by new research they've carried out, examining how the venues are viewed and experienced

by women who are living, working and moving nearby. They spoke to more than 700 women across Cardiff, Edinburgh and Manchester. 55% of those women oppose the views and eight expressed supportive views. Dr. Lauer Afarro is Director of Research at Phile and joins me now. Good morning to you, Dr. Laura. Good morning. So can we start with a language on this? The official regulatory term is sexual entertainment venue, which is used in legislation and local authority licensing processes.

But in the report, you refer to them as strip clubs. Why is that? Well, that's because it's for a range of reasons. First, it's the term women used throughout the research. And it's also the term that most people recognize. But also, while sexual entertainment venue can sound quite neutral, it's actually not. Most of the women I spoke to did not experience these venues as entertainment. They spoke about exploitation, inequality, safety concerns and the sexual objectification of women.

And there seems to be quite a bit of consensus on this. It's not just the women I spoke with. It's not just the women's sector. But even, you know, major policy frameworks like the Scottish government's equally safe strategy, in that strategy, stripping and lap dancing are listed as forms of commercial sexual exploitation. That's the term, which is categorized as violence against women. But my research was not about what happens inside the venues. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah, it was how those strip clubs are viewed and experienced by women, as we said, who live, work and move around them. them in specific cities. So of the women who you spoke to who are opposed to the views, what were their main concerns? Well, generally speaking, they were very clear that the harms of strip clubs extend beyond the venues themselves. So for instance, in Edinburgh, I was told all women are impacted by them.

And in Cardiff, it's not just dangerous for the women that are inside. And generally speaking, then, you were asking me about the concerns. So this had to do with the fact that the areas where strip clubs operate, as seen as environments in which they feel unsafe, restricted, and devalued. And they also described how men attending strip clubs carry harmful attitudes about women into public space, into friendships and into intimate relationships. They also reported negative impacts on young people in the community. So a full range of impacts.

And one of the clearest findings, and this is kind of the most immediate impact, is that strip clubs restrict women's freedom of movement. So most said that they feel unsafe, vulnerable, and horrible around strip clubs. And some reports as harassment by men outside the venues. And both datasets are filled with the samples of adaptations women make on a daily basis to stay safe around strip clubs at night. So this includes avoiding the areas altogether or only walking with others. But of course for many, this is not always possible.

So instead they feel they need to change routes home, even when this means to take longer journeys, leave work through different exits, lock the doors of their workplaces, cross busy roads. And in some cases, even walk in the road rather than on the pavement, to avoid getting close to men outside the venues. They also describe trying to make themselves invisible. That's how they put it. So covering themselves up more, keeping their heads down, looking the other way, walking past as quickly as possible. So this is not occasional inconvenience.

This is really a daily tax on women's freedom in their own cities. So you mentioned there about how women feel about being close to the strip clubs, But how dangerous is it for women who are walking and living nearby? Right. So there's plenty of examples of violent incidents outside this environment. But what I would highlight that this research provides data. So some women reported harassment by men outside venues. And the concentration of intoxicated men, disorder, and aggressive behavior were described as characterized in the areas,

which were experienced as hostile for women. And hence, all of these daily adaptations to keep safe. And those are harms in themselves, right? They're not isolated or trivial incidents. They are everyday restrictions on women's equal access to public space. And we heard that 8% of the women that you spoke to did express supportive views. So what did they say?

Yeah, so that was a small minority. And a common supportive framing had to do. with women's choice and autonomy. So support took the form of, you know, a refusal to judge women, right, right, rather than a defence of the industry itself. But here I have to note that this was the case in all response categories. So the criticism was not directed at the women in the strip clubs, but at the men who used them, at the industry and the councils that allow it.

Why did you choose not to speak to the women who work in them? Well, there's quite a bit of research on that, existing research on that. And so debates around street clubs tend to focus either on the women working in them or to do with regulation, right? But what about all of the other women? That is the question that this research asks. What about all of the other women, right? The women who live nearby, study nearby.

And this actually is a question that it's not only about, you know, how absent it has been in discussions, but actually it's highly relevant for policy because local authorities are required to consider local impacts when determining license applications. Every council, licensing a strip club, also has a legal duty. under the public sector equality duty to consider the impact on women. Right? So they need to have due regard

to they need to eliminate discrimination, advance the quality of opportunity, and foster good relations between women and women. And also they have to consider the commitments to address male violence against women. So this is highly relevant. This is really important evidence. And, you know, every council should be taken this into account.

The number of strip clubs in the UK is down from approximately 350 in the 1990s to around 150 today. And we should say we spoke to the councils in the areas who did the research in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Manchester, who all said that the small number of clubs they do have are generally in the city centre, away from residential areas and that numbers are decreasing. Do you, though, want a total ban? Well, numbers are decreasing, but also let me tell you that there is not a sense. there's no central register. So we don't really know where those figures come from.

And also there's the issue that if strip clubs operate 11 times per year or less, they don't need a license. So there might be more. And that is a loophole, actually, that the government, the UK government has committed to addressing. But of course, this research, it's making a wider discussion and avoidable, right? We need to discuss whether they should be licensed at all. And what is it that you were asking me?

What is it that we're asking for? Well, we are as a result of the finding, so the majority response was that women want these places to be shut down. And also they want a meaningful consultation with women living and working in the vicinity. They also want clear, accessible, and widely publicized information about the licensing process. So in response to these calls, Phelia is launching a campaign that is called normal strip clubs

to support women to challenge strip clubs in the local areas. So we're going to provide them with the tools and information that they need. And yes, we're campaigning for an end of the licensing of strip clubs as venues of sexual exploitation and as venues that are harmful to women's safety, dignity and equality. And we're also calling for meaningful support and exit routes for women currently in the industry. That's actually something that women themselves highlighted. Okay, let's just talk about the women in the industry because in a statement from the Sex Workers Union, they said there's no reliable evidence that suggests sexual entertainment venues or SUVs have a negative impact on their surrounding areas

or that licensing an SUV increases violence against women and girls. And the English collective of prostitutes also said closing down places where women earn a living, risks making women poorer and less safe. What do you say to those counter views? Well, I would say if they say that there's no evidence, I'm presenting that evidence. So I would encourage them to read the report. Also, here what we're talking about is the proportion, right?

So what's striking is the consistency of what women told us across three different cities, right? And the consistency in their responses. I've been talking about the most immediate impact, you know, the use of public space. But, you know, they also spoke about impacts on relationships. This is, let me give you a quotes by Alicia. She was only 18, only 18.

Men think they can treat all women the same because they do that in the strip clubs. They think we're not humans. That was something she had personally experienced. Other women told me of similar experiences. Rosie from Cardiff, I asked all of the women what message they would send to decision makers. And she said, by allowing such places to operate,

you're encouraging the view. It's okay to be violent against women. It's okay to abuse women. It's okay to objectify women. It's okay to treat them like this. So we're talking here about the majority of women. I can hear about the majority of women. I understand what you're saying.

We're running out of time, so I do just want to address this one point that the English collective of prostitutes have said that closing down places where women earn a living risks making women poorer and less safe. So to that point in particular about the women who work there, what would you say to that? Well, a research shows concerns for women's livelihoods, but it's density to translate into supports for the continued license in our strip clubs. Like most women in the research, we're calling for meaningful support and exit pathways,

not continued dependence on industries that are built on sexual objectification. Okay, Dr. Laura Favaro, thank you so much for speaking to us about your research there. Dr. Lauer is the Director of Research at Philea. Thank you very much for joining us on Women's Hour this morning. Now, World Cup champion and world rugby player of the year, Ellie Kildun, joined Nula in the Woman's Hour studio last week to discuss her new memoir and shared what getting her ADHD diagnosis has meant for her. Ellie said understanding her ADHD has helped to make sense of how she thinks, plays and moves through the world

and why she now sees it not as a limitation, but as her superpower. I love chaos. I think there's so much calm within chaos. I think ADHD as much as definitely over the past few years it's been spoken about. on social media a lot. I think it's a superpower as well. I see the world slightly differently. I see the game of rugby slightly differently and I'll pick up on things,

being spaces to attacking, opportunities on the field that other people might not be able to see. You know, the difficulty I have or have had is how do I articulate that to my team who don't see it that way? And that's something that I've had to learn. And I think I've cracked the code on how to speak to my teammates

in a way that they can understand what I'm seeing. It's frustrating when I still feel like I can't get it across. But that's something that getting the diagnosis really helped me understand. And I never want to see it as an excuse. It's just how can I get better? Now I understand this, how can I get better? That was Ellie Cooldown there. And you can listen to the full interview with her in BBC Sounds. Just go to the episode from the 27th of May. Now to the topic of dating, as the female CEO of Dating app Hinge has said that Gen Z need AI to start conversations on dating apps because they lack the confidence of older generations.

Jackie Janthos was speaking on BBC's Big Boss podcast about her app's AI feature. She also said that Gen Z were spending around 1,000 fewer hours a year with other people than those of the same group two decades ago, which has affected their ability to meet and chat in person. Let's hear from her. Again, going back to a group of people spending less time in person with others, there can be a little bit of a lack of confidence, a little bit of questioning around how to express yourself and what might be the right things to share and what makes a good prompt or how do I lean into a conversation beyond saying like, hey, hey, you know, this is not the type of surface

level interaction. We're looking for between humans on the app. Well, joining me now is Olivia Pesse, who's an author and journalist and Jessica Evans, founder of events company Boda. which stands for Board of Dating Apps. Thanks for joining me both of you. Jessica, can I start with you? So Jackie Jantos was saying there that at Hinge they want you to meet in person. Is that your experience of dating apps?

Just checking you can hear me, Jessica. I'm here, yeah. Oh my goodness. Absolutely not. We are constantly hearing from Jen Z that they want more offline and less online. So it's so jarring with what they actually want. And I feel really sorry for Jen said because I feel like we're not actually hearing what they want. I have countless conversations with them of where they say they want and meet cute.

They want to meet people offline. So they don't want more online. So, Olivia, let's bring you in here. What do you think of this idea of an AI tool on a dating app? I mean, look, I think it's something that we need to be really conservative about because if people are using AI on apps, it means that from the outset, those initial interactions are going to be rooted in something that is fundamentally quite inauthentic. You know, I understand that, you know, Hinge is arguing that it's going to try and help users express themselves.

But if you're really using that technology from the very first interaction on the app, I think that it gets you off to a bad start, you know, and it kind of encourages this reliance on this other service when you are communicating with someone. And so I guess it's about how far do you take? that because then do you get a point where you essentially just have two bots flirting with each other? And, you know, and then what happens if you meet that person in real life and you find out that, oh, actually any of the AI generated chemistry that we had is actually not there in person. So I think AI actually can be really useful on dating apps, particularly in terms of safety features and potentially if we're talking about better algorithmic matchmaking.

But I think when it comes to facilitating conversations and, you know, the very thing that we should have as a basic human skill. I think it's a very risky territory and we need to work on building up confidence, as Jackie said, but I think using AI to build that confidence is potentially not the right move. So let's reflect on that then, Jessica, because you run dating nights, as we said. So are 20-somethings right now good at dating interaction in your experience? I think there's been a lot of built-up fear over the last few years. I've talked. I've talked. I've talking to people in real life and having those more meet cute moments, I think they're slightly afraid of those things.

And what we love doing is breaking that down and making things a little bit more human. So we create that space at our events of where people are all single and are open to a conversation and they can meet in real life. And I just feel like, you know, we want to make dating more human for people and more unfiltered. And I think one of the biggest complaints of why people call themselves bad at dating is because we're on our phones so much. And all of our profiles are so curated and our pictures are so curated. What people actually want, particularly Gen Zed, is more authenticity and these more messy interactions. You watch a rom-com.

A meetcute is often slick. Like, it's not slick. It's very messy. And actually, Gen Zeds, you know, this is why there's been a real research. in rom-com culture is that they really want to experience that. Most of them have never experienced being approached or doing the approaching. And this is something they're really hungry for. So, Olivia, you've done some single nights, haven't you?

You've started some single nights. How did they go? Did people actually turn up? Yeah, so I've started these singles nights, sort of by mistake, just from an article I wrote. It's called Red Lips Dating, and it's very much about helping women meet people in real life. and, you know, I wear red lipstick a lot. And the idea is when you kiss someone when you're wearing red lipstick, it leaves a mark all over them.

So it's sort of about encouraging those kind of empowered women who want to be proactive and go out there and find someone in the wild. But they sell out immediately. They're incredibly popular. But people definitely lack that skill set to approach people. And I've seen it firsthand. You know, people will come up to me at my nights and be like, what do I do if I like someone, sort of expecting me to, you know,

hand them a piece of paper and then hand it to their crush. And I have to be like, no, you just have to go up and talk to. them. This is what we used to do. And I think it's about kind of encouraging a more integrated approach to dating, because look, ultimately dating apps aren't going anywhere and AI is going to be integrated into them some way or another. But, you know, a lot of the people at my nights will meet having previously matched on an app. And then, you know, maybe they'd stop speaking to each other. And then they see each other in person. And then it reignites that spark and conversation. And, you know, I do a lot of speed dating at my nights. And I see how everyone is very nervous.

But because that energy is so shared between everyone, there's a real sense of camaraderie. I think. And, you know, everyone's kind of a bit cringed out. It's a bit silly. It's a bit embarrassing to show up to a singles night. But very quickly, everyone realizes, oh, we're all in the same boat. And, you know, as Jess said, we're kind of craving that meet you. And it's just about encouraging people to do that. And I guess, empowering people that, you know, you do. So I think that's what we need to be encouraging people to do. Yeah. And Jessica, it's that chemistry, isn't it, that you might not know. And certainly you're not going to learn from somebody if you're talking to them through AI. But then when you meet them, in person. You just click. You have it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we talk about things, really basic human things like eye flirting and the look back, you know, where you walk and you clock eyes with someone on the street and you both do that look back. I feel like all of these really simple things create, you know, so much fun and dating and romance and dating, something we've really been lacking in the last

five or so years at least. And I feel like people often think, oh my goodness, it's got to be this real grand gesture of where I walk up to someone and I asked for their number, it doesn't have to be as scary as that. It can just be, you know, we already have the tools. It can just be a smile, eye contact, you know, a little kind of nuanced comment about something in the same vicinity as each other. It doesn't have to be anything crazy. It can just be very human and simple. And Olivia, just finally, I understand you're at a wedding in Montenegro. That sounds very glamorous. Just very brief. if you can. Good place to meet someone. Oh God, meeting people at weddings is tricky. I think

kind of the optimum meet you in a way because it's something that we've sort of been taught about from film and TV. Personally, I'm just very excited to have fun with my friends. But again, I think that's part of it, right? Because if you feel yourself and you're surrounded by people who love you and make you feel good and you are being true to who you are, that's when you're most likely to attract someone who is right for you, you know? And I think you have to remember, AI doesn't have human experience. It doesn't have an attachment style. It doesn't have a family, doesn't have a star sign. You know, it doesn't have those things we need for romantic compatibility. So as long as you're yourself and you're true to who you are, you might find someone. Olivia and Jessica, thank you so

much if you want to listen to that interview we were talking about with Jackie Jantos. It's on the big boss podcast. It's on BBC Sounds. I just want to bring you some breaking news at the end of the program. We've heard that Kanye King, the entrepreneur and founder of the Mobile Award, has died at the age of 57 from colon cancer. The Mobo organization says she died after a courageous and characteristically determined battle with her illness. The music world has lost one of its most fearless champions. The statement continues, what Kanye created was never simply an award ceremony. It was an act of cultural justice.

Mobo did not just celebrate black music. It legitimised it, amplified it and demonstrated its commercial and creative power to a world that had too often chosen not to see it. Well, I'm joined by Mark Savage, the BBC's music correspondent. Mark, thanks for joining us. How significant a figure was Kenya in the music industry? I mean, really, she broke so many boundaries in the music industry. When the Mobos were set up 30 years ago,

mainstream awards ceremonies in the UK, I didn't really recognise the contribution of black musicians and the influence of black music on the entire. music scene. And so this little upstart ceremony that she funded by remorgeting her house put people who were not in the limelight right into the centre of the conversation. And you look at what the Mobos did to support Garbage at the turn of the millennium, the influence of reggae, Afrobeat and broader African music, all things that became huge cultural juggernauts in the music industry, they stem from the championing that can you gave them through the Mobo

award ceremony. Just briefly, if you can, she was on our music power list just a few years ago. So what will her legacy be? I mean, obviously the Mobo organization will continue, but it also does educational projects and outreach to help empower black creatives and also professionals within the music industry, because even now, there is an under-report. for black executives within the industry. So those are all things that the organisation continues to champion, and that will be Kanye's legacy. Mark, thank you very much.

That's Mark Savage there, the BBC's music correspondent, and just a reminder of that breaking news, that Kanye King, the entrepreneur and founder of the Moab Awards, has died at the age of 57 from colon cancer. Now, I'll be back with Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow, but I just want to finish with this comment, we've had about dating and how you interact with people when you're initially meeting them. Alex has got in touch to say, you have to take a chance.

Four years ago, my friend said there's something I have to tell you. I've got feelings for you. My heart sank. I wasn't ready for that and I snapped back. But why did you have to tell me? The response was because I didn't want to be dishonest to our friendship. Good answer. We're celebrating our second wedding anniversary and living our happy ever after.

What a lovely comment to finish on. Thank you very much. for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it is Danny Robbins here for years now on Uncanny. We have explored real people's potentially

paranormal experiences. But one thing that listeners have often asked me is why don't we look at supernatural cases from the past? Well, you asked and we listened. Our new series, Uncanny Cold Cases, takes a deep dive into some of these stories

from the most haunted house in England to the original UFO abduction case. Can we make sense of these strange stories that have haunted history? Uncanny, cold cases. Listen on BBC Sounds. The Signal Awards recognize the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards, sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts

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