Woman's Hour - Emily Blunt, Pathologist-novelist, Baby formula, Short marriages

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

Actor Emily Blunt found fame as the scene-stealing assistant in The Devil Wears Prada, and has since starred in many films including Mary Poppins Returns and A Quiet Place with her real-life husband John Krasinski. She is also in one of this year’s biggest cinematic hits, Oppenheimer. As Christopher Nolan’s blockbuster about the father of the atomic bomb is released on ultra-HD DVD and Blu-ray, Emily Blunt talks to Clare McDonnell about her role as Kitty Oppenheimer, Robert’s wife.The price of baby formula has been making the headlines this week. The main brands have been pulled up by the Government’s Competition and Markets Authority for their high pricing. In fact, their research shows that the retail price is a lot higher than the costs to make the product. Joining Clare to discuss the high prices is Sarah Cardell, chief executive of the CMA and Kirsty Jackson, the founder of High Peak Baby Bank, a donation service for families in need up in the Staffordshire area. How common is it for a long relationship to end with a short marriage? What is it about formalising a union, or having a wedding that can be the catalyst for a split? And what are the legal pitfalls that couples might want to avoid? Clare is joined by Eve Simmons, US Health and Wellness Editor for the Daily Mail and Laura Naser, a partner in family law.As Ireland's first female state pathologist, Dr Marie Cassidy helped to solve murders and clarify unexplained deaths for over 15 years. She tells Clare what drew her to this career, how she deals with the emotionally taxing nature of the job and why she's now turned to writing with her debut novel 'Body of Truth'.Presenter: Clare McDonnell Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Duncan Hannant and Neva Missirian

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Clare Macdonald and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Emily Blunt joins me to talk Oppenheimer, the movie, coming to a TV streaming platform near you soon. She plays Kitty, the wife of Robert Oppenheimer, a brilliant scientist in her own right. Emily tells me why she felt it was so important to portray this complex woman, faults and all. And she also talks about why she feels acting helped her cope with a stammer that started in childhood and she still lives with today.

In a cost-of-living crisis, why is the one product, the most vulnerable amongst us, need-to-stay-alive baby formula, rocketing in price. The rise has attracted the attention of the government's competition and markets authority. We will hear from them and also a baby bank, a donation service for families. Have you been in a long relationship that ended in a short marriage? You got the mortgage, you had the kids, maybe the dog, you got married and then well well, things fell apart. Why does that happen?

We're going to hear today from Eve Simmons, a Daily Mail journalist whose partner asked her for a divorce just six months after their wedding. And Laura Nazer, a partner in a family law firm, will be here with some sound advice. If that has happened to you, tell me your experience. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we are at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use wi-fi if you can and terms and conditions can be found on our website. And Ireland's first ever female state

pathologist Dr Murray Cassidy will join us. When she took on that role she was the only female in the room. Today it is a very different story. She'll tell us what made her walk away from the job and turn her hand to crime fiction writing. But first, actor Emily Blunt found fame as the scene-stealing assistant in The Devil Wears Prada and has since starred in many films, including Mary Poppins Returns and A Quiet Place with her real-life husband, John Krasinski. She is also one of this year's biggest cinematic hits. She's in it. She's one of the stars. It's Oppenheimer as Christopher Nolan's blockbuster about the father of the atomic bomb

is released in Ultra HD, DVD and Blu-ray. I spoke to Emily Blunt about her role as Kitty, Robert Oppenheimer's wife. We also got onto her views on the actor's strike and her experience of having a stammer. But first, I asked her how she approached playing a naughty, complex character like Kitty Oppenheimer. I think it might be easy to stereotype her as this kind of brittle, horrible person. But I guess I just really tried to dive deep with a lot of empathy as to what it must have been like to have been living with a brain like she had and for that to have been squandered

in the sort of isolation and loneliness of having to be a good housewife in Los Alamos. And I think she just represented to me a lot of women who have just driven themselves insane at the ironing board, sort of wanting more for themselves and yet having to be the ballast and the spine that keeps their husband upright. And she clearly had a drinking problem and clearly was not an easy person. But I admired this sort of startling force that she was and loved playing her, you know,

as messy and as unhinged as she could sometimes be. You've described her as having this brilliant brain. She was a biologist. She was a botanist as well. After her marriage to Oppenheimer, she worked as a lab tech, didn't she, at the Manhattan Project. How do you feel as a woman filming her life now? Do you get angry? Do you ever think, goodness me, if she'd walked in my shoes now, her life would have been entirely

different? Yes, I do. And I think that about so many women and women that i know who i think hit that point in life where they feel a lot of anger and resentment at um their lot in life and i think she really was meant for vast intellectual endeavors and was completely capable as so many women have always been completely capable. And so, yes, I do feel that sense of frustration. And I have great understanding and empathy for it, that it's okay that it's not enough just to be someone's mummy or someone's husband. And it should be allowed. That's absolutely fine to declare that, you know. And the party she threw kind of reflected that, didn't they? Yeah, exactly.

I gather there was a lot of vodka and not much food. It was just cigarettes and vodka is what the Oppenheimers survived on. Sounds like fun. I love the scene where, I mean, it's one of the standout scenes in the movie. It was a very fraught marital relationship. She comes out fighting for her husband. He's accused of espionage and she wipes the floor with the panel investigating him. How did it feel to sort of unleash her intelligence and her articulacy in that scene?

Oh, it was so thrilling. It was a very exhilarating scene to shoot. And I remember the set was very claustrophobic and Chris Nolan sort of wanted it that way. It was a very tight, shabby room. And I think I loved the opportunity for her to reclaim that brain of hers and to eviscerate someone who had been bullying her husband and no one was speaking up no one was speaking plainly and I think the audience is so desperate for someone to come in and rip the face off this guy and so it was it was also a great setup because by that point she'd been displayed as being such a unpredictable character so for her to be able to come in and rally and say exactly what she felt and to relish wiping the floor with them was really fun. And we shot that scene all day. It was a great moment for her to kind of come through and be heroic for him. Is it important to you then when when you play characters like her,

to say, well, she may not have got her due and not being given her opportunity to be as brilliant a scientist as her husband, but I, as an actress now, all these years later, I can put it on the record who she truly was and what she was capable of. Yes, yes, I think that that was, it's always hugely important to me to try to reveal the full spectrum of somebody. Nobody is just one thing and nobody can be summed up in just a few

words. And I think Chris Nolan did create a emotionally very visceral character for me to play. He certainly wrote such juicy scenes, even if she isn't in the movie that much. I think she's quite a big, when I read the script, I was like, wow, she's such a presence because all the scenes were so emotional. But I was greatly relieved that she had a moment to um for reclamation really you know because i think she'd been deemed so unhinged at that point everyone's waiting for that moment for her to kind of come back to life a bit and even if she's walking into the testifying scene she's not even walking in a straight line so you just think oh, oh, God, she's going to choke. It's going to be so embarrassing. It was thrilling. It was really, really cool.

I want to ask you about the actor strike while we have you as well. Of course, it did affect the London premiere of Oppenheimer. You and your co-stars walked off the red carpet. It was quite a moment. How important was that moment for you? Oh, it was hugely important to all of us. We all got together before the red carpet and we said, look, this is and we all felt the same, that it was a moment to celebrate this incredible film. But we certainly needed to use it as a moment to express solidarity with the union. So it just felt like we were striking the right chord by trying to do both, really. How has it felt then? Because this is a

sort of previously undiscovered solidarity across your industry. You know, you've got writers and actors and people behind the scenes. And it's been this incredible moment of union. What do you think that's done for your profession? Oh, I think it's been so far reaching. And I think that it has brought us together. And I think it's woken up a lot of people to treatments that have been normalized for so long with regards to healthcare or the hours that you work. I mean, the list goes on. So what SAG and the Writers Guild and the Directors Guild were fighting for, I think was just raising awareness

that we've all normalised certain treatments and certain contractual obligations for so long that I think everyone's eyes got open to what needed to change. And you said just before the strike, you were taking a year off to spend more time with your family. Did you manage to get a better work life balance during the strike? I mean, I've always managed to achieve it. Like I've never gone back to back on movies and I've always felt that I've tried to balance it. I think sometimes probably every mother feels like they're not always getting it right when it comes to the juggle.

But I was ready to just really step back for a little bit in no way to quit the business, just to like take some downtime. And it's been wonderful. I've loved it. And your children, I know you split your time with your husband, John Krasinski, between the UK and the US. You've mentioned the fact that they have American accents, not British ones. I mean, is that have you lost that battle? I feel like I don't have a choice. I don't know. I think it's like whatever environment the kids grow up in, that's what they're going to adopt. Like, I look at my sister's kids who she has with Stanley Tucci.

Yes, your sister, the literary agent Felicity Blunt. Her children are so English. They are the most posh, beautifully spoken children. But yet their dad's American. siblings are american from stanley's first relationship and yet i think it's just because they live in england that's what they're surrounded with that's how they'll sound i think my kids do a great impersonation of me i mean they they they do very good english accents it's just not what they speak you know that they could turn it on when they choose to and i can turn it on when they choose to. They can turn it on, for sure.

I'm sure. The daughters of two actors. And I wanted to ask you, we did a really fascinating feature earlier in the week on Woman's Hour on stammers and loads of incredible stories coming in from the listeners. And I know... Oh, I'd love to hear it. I'd love to hear it.

Well, I'm sure we could get it to you. You're very much involved in the American Institute for Stuttering, which is what stammering is called in America. And I just wanted to know, as a child, you had a stammer. Has acting helped you cope with that? How did you cope with it? Well, you know, stuttering, which people don't realize, I think people put it down to, or it's misidentified often as a nervous disposition or some kind of psychological disorder. But it's actually biological, very often hereditary and neurological.

So I'll always be one. I'm probably unaware of how much I flip-flop words around to substitute ones that are easier to say, which most stutterers do, is that you're constantly doing a sort of gymnastics. You can sense ahead, oh, that word's going to trip me up or I'm going to get stuck on that one. I'll switch it for something else. So I think that is something maybe I don't even realize I do now um certain environments will

still uh create a struggle for me like I'm if someone asks me to pitch them anything it's a nightmare like any sort of pressurized situation where you have to convince or persuade in any way is a bit of a nightmare um but I did sort of grow out of it my parents were very my mom was very very forthright about trying to get me therapy and help from any kind of realm that she thought would be helpful I think acting I always encourage kids and adults to do an acting class or I don't know to take a monologue home with them and just read it intimately to yourself rather than in a presentational sense, because any kind of presentational state is so scary for a stutterer. So I encourage them to just read, read some Shakespeare at home, read a poem to yourself quietly, intimately, and concentrate on your emotions rather than words. I think words on a

page are just seen as failures, right? Like one consonant or verb after another, that's what you see. You approach speech in a sort of staccatoed sense. And I think it just, you've got to sort of wrap your arms around this part of yourself and know it's just not all of you, it's just a part of you and everyone's got something and this just happened to be my thing but I think acting I would like I've met a lot of stutterers from Bruce Willis to Samuel L Jackson who all stutter but when they act they don't and it's still a bit mysterious to all of us and I wonder if when you're being creative you're just accessing

a different part of your brain that stops the record skipping, or you remove yourself from yourself. So maybe it's an out of body experience that's helpful. It's all a bit of a mystery to all of us still, but I did find it helpful. Even if I would act in a different accent, different essence of someone else, it would free me up. And then I think once you give your brain that sort of reservoir of I can speak fluently, I can do this, even if you're doing it in a silly accent or pretending to be someone else, but you've got the reservoir. So then it does kind of help with confidence going forward that you can and you will again. The people we had on the program were

so grateful that we were talking about stuttering and uh and did stutter when when we did the item um yeah they also made the point that that that is what you need to see you need to see and hear people doing this in you know in acting or in reading the news or whatever it is so it's it's not something that you have to overcome as you've just articulated so well. It's something that's a part of us. And if you don't present that difference to the rest of the world, then it's always going to be seen as a problem.

Do you think we should see more of that? And in acting specifically, stuttering is obviously very often a kind of negative character trait, isn't it? Does that need to change? Yeah, I mean, the one thing I still would absolutely love to do is make a movie about a stutterer. And it's something that I'm quite passionate about just to destigmatize it and understand the emotional trauma of living with the inability to speak will limit you in ways that

are, for someone who speaks fluently, pretty unimaginable. and 80 million people around the world stutter that is a huge huge percentage of the population really so as long as we can keep destigmatizing it then there won't be so much shame it can just be more acceptable because i think it is one trait that is very easily bullied still whereas others are like you no no you mustn't talk about that anymore but stuttering is like it's people have fun with it. You know, they they enjoy poking fun at it without understanding the trauma of living with it. Well, Emily, if you ever make that film, please do come back to Woman's Hour and tell us all about it. I would love to. And any time you want me to talk about stuttering, I will happily, happily keep going so I can come back anytime.

The actor Emily Blunt. And if you want to listen back to that conversation about stuttering or stammering, as it's better known here in the UK, then you can go to BBC Sounds and search for Tuesday the 28th of November's episode of Woman's Hour. And Emily's latest film Oppenheimer is available now on ultra high definition DVD and Blu-ray and also to download and keep. Now over the last few months we've heard lots of discussions around the impact of inflation on things like our food shop and our everyday living costs but one part of that food shop in particular has been making the headlines this week and that's baby formula what once used to be under a tenner now sells for around 15 pounds and the main brands

have been pulled up by the government's competition and markets authority the cma for their high pricing in fact their research shows that the retail price is a lot higher than the cost to actually make the product in a moment i'll be be talking to Kirsty Jackson, founder of a baby bank. But first, earlier I spoke to Sarah Cardell, chief executive of the CMA, and I asked her about the main aspects of their research. So back in July, we reported on competition between grocery retailers. And at the same time, we said we wanted to take a closer look across the supply chain. So we picked out 10 product categories. And what we've seen is that for a number of these

brands, the manufacturers have chosen to increase their prices by more than costs. But in most cases, people have been able to respond to that by finding cheaper alternatives, whether that's cheaper brands, or in many cases, own label products. And we've seen some significant switching. The real exception to that, though, has been baby formula, where we've seen very significant price increases, around 25% over the last two years, but very, very little switching to cheaper options. And of course, very limited availability of own label alternatives.

And when you looked into why they were going up so much in price, what did you discover? Well, I mean, the sort of clear reason, to be honest, is frankly, that the manufacturers have chosen to make those increases above cost increases. So there's no cost basis for that additional price increase. So it really is very much in the hands of the manufacturers. Now, as I say, when it comes to baby formula, the concern that we have is that we're not seeing the kind of competitive price pressure that you'd expect in a well-functioning market. And this is obviously a market that is hugely important for new parents. We know it's a very, very expensive time when you're having a baby. And what we found is that new parents' families could be saving £500 a year or perhaps even more by using cheaper alternatives.

So we've announced yesterday that we want to take forward a further, deeper probe into the baby formula market to really understand what's driving people's choices, why we're not seeing greater take up of cheaper options, why we don't see more availability of own label alternatives, and also to take a look at the regulatory framework to make sure that that isn't hampering competition. And we have a statement from one of the biggest manufacturers, Danon, and they say we recognise the challenges faced by parents due to inflation during this difficult period. We've worked hard to absorb the significant cost increase we have faced. That's what they say. Everything's got more expensive for them. They've had to pass that rise on. Is that enough of a defence in your opinion?

Well, I think the evidence we've seen points in a slightly different direction. It's absolutely the case that costs have increased, but prices have increased by more than costs. And I think really it's up to the manufacturers to explain why that's happened. But what really matters at the end of the day is that new parents are getting access to the best to explain why that's happened. But what really matters at the end of the day is that new parents are getting access to the best available products that they can at the best available price. And we know that the regulations require that every single baby formula product meets the nutritional needs of a new baby. So, you know, I think there's also a question about whether new parents have access to the right information at the right time.

What's guiding their decisions? Are they aware that they could be getting cheaper products which potentially still meet the needs of their baby? And that's really the focus for the next piece of work that we're going to be carrying out. Baby Formula does have different marketing rules compared to other products, which does make a difference in terms of cost. Could you just explain what these are? Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it is a complex picture. And that's something that we're very mindful of. So there are obviously, and for very good reasons, very strict rules, both around the ingredients, the inputs into baby formula, but also around the way that it's marketed. And that there are a number of reasons for that, including, of course, importantly, supporting breastfeeding. So what we want to do in this

next phase of our work is take a closer look at those regulations to understand how they are impacting on people's choices about which products to use. You know, we know, for example, that new parents are often informed by family, friends, word of mouth, but also a degree of social media may come into play, baby clubs. So what is driving choices where you don't have direct marketing to new parents? We also want to have a look at how the marketing of follow-on formula then might be impacting on choices about that first choice of baby formula. So I think there's a lot to unpick here. There are clearly complex drivers for that regulatory framework, but we do want to make sure that that isn't affecting the way competition is working. And

ultimately, we want to make sure that new parents have access to the best products at the best prices. Because the more products are on the market, the more competitive the prices get. Are you looking into that as well? The suggestion being that the market has been cornered and it's difficult for new products to come into it or maybe not worth the cost? Absolutely. It's a very concentrated market. So at the moment, we know that the two major suppliers,

Danone and Nestle, between them have 85% market share. Obviously, they've both got a couple of different brands within that. And in particular, it appears to have been very difficult for own label alternatives to really get a foothold and grow in this market. And again, that's very different from a number of other grocery areas that we've looked at. So we do want to understand why that's the case and whether there are barriers that are preventing alternative competitors from growing more effectively in this market. That's Sarah Cardell from the Competition and Markets Authority. Listening to that is Kirsty Jackson, who founded the High Peak Baby Bank, a donation service for families in need in the Staffordshire area. Kirsty, welcome to the programme. Hi, thanks for having me. Tell us the story of your bank then. How did it begin? It was originally called Buxton Baby Bank but we had to expand

to cover a wider area. I started it in 2020 after my son was born and I didn't have any clothes and all the clothing shops were closed with Covid and so I was swapping my daughter's clothes for some for my son on my doorstep through Facebook marketplace realised there was a massive demand for free clothes and baby equipment and did some research and took it from there basically and it's just massively expanded. Yes and you're fulfilling a real need here. Let's talk then about baby formula. What are you experiencing at the bank? Do you stock it for example? We do stock it for a while um we kept it quite quiet that we kept formula we um at the start we were having a lot of people taking it and selling it on people who didn't

necessarily need it taking it uh but in the last six to twelve months we've seen a massive increase of people asking for it um so we do do we do stock some but we've never got enough and i hear that other banks food banks don't like to stock it because it's in such high demand because it's so expensive their fights can often break out to try and get hold of it yeah it's it's a high value item and it's a necessity, it's something that people really need. We have had some donated to us from food banks who just don't want to accept it for that reason as well as the fact that it is a high value item, it can be resold and it can be misused. What stories are you hearing then from people coming in they must be so grateful that you're offering this but it's as you say it's a necessity it's not a luxury it's

not a nice to have it's a necessary to have so what are they telling you? Unfortunately we do see a lot of shame surrounding people having to ask for formula with it being such a basic item a lot of parents are finding that they can't afford it or they can't access the milk and then they obviously feel very guilty because it's one of the most needed items for a baby and they can't provide that for several different reasons they're obviously very grateful for the service and we welcome anybody that needs help to access our services. But I do think there is always going to be a bit of a stigma asking for something which society expects you to be able to provide. They feel like they've failed.

Yes, I would say that. But they haven't. No, they haven't. Absolutely not. They're just in need. And do people water it down? I mean, presumably, if you can't afford to replace it, whatever you get, you try and keep it going for as long as possible. There's been some real horror stories lately.

There's been some parents substituting it with condensed milk. Some parents, quite a common thing is filling the bottle with baby porridge or baby rice to thicken it and make the baby sleep longer therefore not needing as many feeds people are introducing solids and cow's milk much sooner and there are even people selling open tins of formula on facebook marketplace because it's just quite difficult to come by at the minute for supply issues and obviously the cost. We heard from Sarah Cardell there from the Competition and Markets Authority and they're looking into this and saying well actually they can't see at this stage the justification for the price rise because even though costs have

gone up well their prices have gone up quite significantly above the rise in the cost. But she did say families could be saving up to £500 a year if they swapped brands. With the people you see every day, would that be meaningful to them or they can't even afford it in the first place? Not really. I think the main thing that people need to realise and sometimes the people making these observations aren't parents themselves or haven't had the experience of having a newborn baby and having to choose a formula and some of the cheaper brands aren't always as accessible as people think so for example I was talking to a mum on the school run a couple of weeks ago and she couldn't get hold of the Mamia Aldi baby milk for weeks she

had to travel to lots of different branches of Aldi trying to find that specific formula. And yes, it is cheaper, but it wasn't accessible. If you could wave a magic wand then, Kirsty, and change one thing, what would it be? Definitely the cost. It's just ridiculously pricey. And if you're thinking about how many tins of milk

someone needs to go through for a little baby it shouldn't cost that much thank you so much for joining us um a really interesting discussion we've got started here thank you for joining us kirsty kirsty jackson there who founded high peak baby bank a donation service for families in need in the staffordshire area your experiences do text the program The number is 84844. And just to say, we have now received a statement from Nestle in response to the criticisms raised by Sarah Cardell, Chief Executive of the CMA.

It says this, We agree that it is important to make sure that parents who decide to formula feed their babies have reliable and safe access to formula and choices in the formula that they give their baby. We welcome the review of the industry by the CMA. This is a complex and serious issue and we are open to all constructive dialogue to help parents in the most effective way possible. Our goal has always been to keep products affordable and accessible for parents while still paying fair prices to our suppliers, including farmers.

There have been significant increases in costs, but we have been working to cut our costs wherever possible and only increase prices as a last resort. As I say, do get your experiences of this into us on 84844. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, here's a phrase, marry in haste, repent at leisure. A bit of a cliche. And you might think there is no surprise in a

marriage quickly disintegrating when the individuals involved haven't had the time to really get to know each other. But what about the cases of couples who have been in long relationships, cohabiting, maybe owning property together, having children together, rubbing along for years, then they get married, the union is formalized and divorce follows soon after how can things go to pot so quickly and why well of course to coin a phrase recollections may vary and there are different sides to the same story we're going to talk about this now i'm joined by laura nasa a partner in a family law firm welcome laura hello Great to have you on the programme. And Eve Simmons, US Health and Wellness Editor for the Daily Mail. Eve joins us from New York. Eve, welcome. Hello. Thank you for having me. It's great to have you. Let's start with your story, Eve.

You were together with your partner for a long time and everything I've just described, your relationship followed that pattern. So can you tell us what happened? Absolutely, yes. So I was with my partner for nine years. We got together when we were in our early 20s. And then we moved in together, I think about two and a half years into our relationship. So we lived together for the best part of six years. And then we got engaged in 2019. We had a very, I'd say, very healthy relationship. We supported each other through emotional difficulties. We really cared for each other. We definitely thought it was going to be in for the long run.

After we got engaged, COVID hit. So that delayed things a little bit. But there was never a question that we wouldn't get married. We got married in May of 2022. And in November 2022, he quite shockingly turned around to me one evening after work and told me that he didn't want to be married anymore, pretty much. And then we had a week period of deciding whether he wanted to give it a go and do therapy. And unfortunately, he decided that that wasn't an option he wanted to give it a go and do therapy. And unfortunately, he decided that that wasn't an option he wanted to take. So now, a year later, I am almost nearly divorced. Did you see that coming?

No, no, not in the slightest. I think like with every long-term relationship, we had sort of peaks and troughs. And I think that the delay of our wedding had been somewhat of a difficulty for both of us. And the momentum had been lost a little bit. And we had got maybe into a bit of a rut. We relatively recently got a puppy. And so that took up a lot of our time. And I guess, you know, there wasn't a great deal of of old school romance anymore but after nearly a decade together you're very lucky if you do

still have a lot of that um of course hindsight is a wonderful thing and now i look back and think okay yeah there were quite a few things that weren't ideal and that you know in fact maybe maybe didn't make me as happy as i thought I was. But I think anyone can say that when a relationship finishes. And I definitely didn't think that it would end so quickly without any sort of proper conversation or couples therapy or a period of let's try and see if we can do things to make it work. And his sort of behaviour after our breakup was also quite surprising in that financially things got quite heated. And there were issues that I thought would be resolved quite easily and kindly.

And that didn't happen. And that, I think, came as a bigger shock than the actual breakup. Although the breakup was also a shock. We obviously there are different sides, as I said, coin of phrase, recollections may vary to what happens in a relationship. Your former husband isn't here to say what he thinks. We did ask for his view. He didn't want to be involved in the discussion today. Lots of people stay together and then have a wedding thinking, you know, things are, you know, a bit routine, a bit mundane. And then the push is have a wedding and maybe that you know, things are, you know, a bit routine, a bit mundane, and then the push is have a wedding, and maybe that will kick a bit of life back into the relationship.

Would you say that was the case in your relationship? Not at all. I don't think so. We had both kind of been through really difficult periods throughout our relationship. I had an eating disorder, which I have written about in the Daily Mail many times um and he stuck by me through that I was hospitalized and and it was a very difficult period of time and then there was a period of recovery after that and he was incredibly supportive um and you know really quite astonishingly so um and so we our foundation of our relationship was very much that we had this this unique kind of bond through through traumatic experiences basically and felt that we had this this real need to be there for each other and to care for each other and that that translated sort of

throughout our relationship so I wouldn't say at all that our wedding was, you know, trying to force something that wasn't there. I think that things had become like most relationships are, you know, they're not always magical. And I do, I guess, kind of looking back, we probably didn't put enough time and effort into making all of those things sparkle, which perhaps, you know, perhaps we should have done. I just want to bring in Laura now. Laura Ney is a partner in a family law firm. Do you see a lot of this, Laura, come across your desk? People who've been together a long time. So the relationship, the actual spending time together, is longer than the actual marriage.

Yeah, I think it's more of a generational thing. I definitely think it's something more for Eve's generation than, say say my parents generation because society has changed where it's far more acceptable to to cohabit and live with someone without being married so there's definitely been an increase in people doing that and then getting married and then it quickly falling down short marriages are anything really under, let's say, four or five years. But in Eve's case, and this is what the law has been tested on a lot, is should that period of cohabitation where you're living together effectively as a marriage, a as a spouse together should that can be added to the length

of your marriage and in cases where they do consider themselves in a kind of quasi marriage that is added so eve was saying they were together for six years prior to their wedding well effectively their wedding um kind of is brought forward to the day they moved in together. So their length of their marriage would include that period of six years, as long as it has gone seamlessly into the wedding and to the marriage. And they did consider themselves as a kind of relationship like a marriage. So does that make a difference in the rights that you have in the eyes of the law when it comes to the divorce and the splitting of assets?

Yes. Our laws are really wide and discretionary and the courts are given that discretion to be able to apply our laws bespokely to every case. So no two families, no two divorces are the same. But where there are periods of cohabitation that go into marriage, and that then extends the length of the marriage, then yes, that does have an impact on the financial separation. As a rough guide, the starting point is equality. And then there are various factors that the courts would look at to determine whether equality is the right, fair outcome. And the length of the marriage is one of those factors. So is it fair to equalise all of the party's assets if they've only been married a year? Perhaps not. Perhaps that's more likely that what they each brought in, they should each walk away with. But would that be fair if they then cohabited seamlessly prior to that marriage

for 10 years? Well, maybe not, because that would then become more of an 11-year marriage, which we would consider a longer marriage. And so perhaps equality and division of assets in that scenario, taking into account cohabitation, would be fair. Eve, did you know anything about this then? Because this is news to me that cohabiting is as important as when you get married. Absolutely not. And I think if anything, I never imagined that I would be in this position, as I'm sure most people who end up divorced, you know, don't. And the one thing that really

struck me was how surprised I was by all of the financial stuff that's involved in getting married that stupidly I was completely unaware of and it meant that you know when it came to splitting our assets there were things like family money that you know my family had contributed to a house we bought together and all of a sudden you know I'm being told that actually everything is 50-50. I also, you know, had a pension and had savings that I had worked for for a long time. And, you know, being told that, oh, actually, he has rights to half of that, despite anything, you know, you doing anything, was pretty shocking, really. And, you know, thankfully, it ended in a situation where we didn't have to go through courts or anything. But the fact that that could happen, you know,

simply by being married to somebody, you have to give them some of your money. I guess logically, it makes sense. But would you be aware of that before you got married? I don't know how many people would. And particularly so after such a short marriage, I think that that would feel incredibly shocking. But I suppose it depends on which side of the coin you're on. Because if you have considered yourself to be in a quasi-marriage for those 10 years, then you marry, well, I think you would feel a bit more like,

well, we've shared our finances for such a long time. But particularly in Eve's case, where it was completely out of her hands, there was no kind of real decision-making on her part. You must have felt, I assume, a bit like, well, why am I now giving you 50% when I didn't want this? And you sort of feel like you're being whacked over the head twice within a very short space of time

and the courts don't penalize a party for bad behavior or for being the one to make that decision that is not taken into account when dividing the assets eve how i mean it's obviously a very bruising experience you have been through but has it changed your view of the next person you get involved with and whether marriage is completely off the table now? I think it's changed my view of being prepared to go into a situation and being, you know, understanding of all the different potential outcomes and that you may feel one way in a particular scenario, but there's nothing to say you know things change life

changes stuff happens and I guess you know the most important thing I think and especially for women um is to just make sure that you are protected and prepared in in as many ways as you can be and I think especially now I've spoken to a lot of divorce lawyers you know since this has happened to me I've just as any journalist want to know everything about the subject and you know especially now what a lot of divorce lawyers have said to me they're seeing this interesting kind of change because of course you know it used to be that that women did fairly well relatively out of divorce because their husbands were the ones who were the thewinners and, you know, had the assets and therefore they could go through the courts and the women would be able to access some of those funds. Whereas, you know, now what's happening is women are actually in that position

or more women are in that position, not enough, but more. And so what's happening is that they're surprised that, you know, it gets to a situation where actually they lose out on money and they end up being, you know, financially underserved because of this situation and money that they have worked very, very hard for and often had to sort of climb lots of ladders and, you know, as we know, overcome lots of obstacles. And suddenly they're being told that it's completely

out of their control and someone can just take some of that from them um so i i just think you know if you can if you have a friendly lawyer somewhere in a as a family friend or a friend of a friend of a friend you know have a conversation before you think about getting married and and try and understand get your head around some of the um the legal issues around it and protect yourself. It's why it's so important to shine light on this issue. This texter, it's Emily, says, I just turned on the radio and heard my own story. I was with my partner for several years. We married in 2019, had our daughter in 2020, and he walked away from our marriage eight

months later. I felt COVID and lockdowns was a massive factor in the sudden breakdown of what I had thought was a happy marriage. Lots of other texters getting in touch as well. We'll try and get to as many of your texts as possible. You two have struck a chord very definitely with the Woman's Hour listeners. Thank you so much for joining us. Such an important issue.

You heard Eve Simmons there, the last voice you heard, US health and wellness editor for the Daily Mail and Laura Nazer, partner in a family law firm. Thank you both very much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Now to my final guest, to someone who holds the accolade of being Ireland's first ever female state pathologist. Dr Mari Cassidy took on the role for 15 years where she performed thousands of postmortems for unexplained deaths and murders she retired in 2018 as and has now turned her hand to another line of work writing crime thrillers

body of truth is her debut novel and features as its protagonist a state pathologist the lead character dr terry o'brien finds herself going above and beyond her duty as she investigates the murder of a female true crime podcast. I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Dr. Cassidy herself in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming in. Let's start with your former day job, state pathologist. For those who might know, what's your average day?

What do you actually do? Right. A state pathologist is the equivalent to the English home office pathologist. We're forensic pathologists and we are there to investigate any unnatural death. So these are people dying from accidents, suicide and homicides. And Ireland's a bit peculiar, the south of Ireland, in that the state pathologist really only investigates the suspicious deaths and the homicides. So where the police, the Gardaí in Ireland, have got some concern that all may not be well and that this person may have died at the hands of another. I mean, it's a fascinating field, but a very taxing field in many ways.

What first attracted you to it? I just found it fascinating. I mean, I'd gone through medical school, learning how to keep people alive and well, and discovered that despite your best efforts, they still die. And I thought, that's a bit traumatic to me. It's obviously very traumatic to them. More for them. But I felt it too.

And I thought, oh, I don't know if I could deal with this on a daily basis. So I thought, let's leave the living to people who are better, better serve them. And I'll move and deal with the dead. And I just found it fascinating why people died. And not just from the violent deaths that I've specialised in later on in my career, but people who were in hospital and been looked after very well and died. And the relatives used to come in and go, but why? It was an intensive care. He should have been looking after him. I'd go, yeah, I agree. Why did he die? So it was a puzzle. And I always wanted to find

out what the solution to that puzzle was. So it sounds like you're driven by a strong sense of justice. I like to call it fairness. I like the word fair because I'm never sure what justice is. It means different things to different people. But my mantra is always, is that fair? And is it fair that people don't get the answers that they want? And that's what I've always driven to do in my latter years is to make sure that the family's

got the answers that they were looking for. When you started in pathology you were in Scotland initially before you moved to Ireland. Talk to us about that journey because there were more pathologists weren't there in Scotland and a very different case when you moved to Ireland. Yes I mean I was based in Glasgow and we had five pathologists in our department and we covered what we call Glasgow and the Strathclyde area. So quite a big land mass and quite a large population. And we were dealing with all unnatural deaths. And I was maybe doing 400, maybe a bit more postmortems per year. And then I got the opportunity to move to Ireland and I thought it's a backwater, it'd be very quiet.

We've all watched Brigadoon and all these little things. We thought it'll be lovely, lovely place to retire to. Was it? No. But there was only myself and the then state pathologist, Jack Harbison. So the two of us covered the whole of the south of Ireland. And my workload did go down. Yes, I was only doing perhaps about 100 to maybe 150 cases a year, depending on the year.

But, yeah, it was very different. Well, tell me about, and the Women's listeners then, about, you know, being the only woman in the room. What kind of response did you get from your co-workers to begin with? In the early days when I first started off, I mean, I started off in forensic pathologists way, way back in the mid-1980s. And I really was the only woman in the room. And it was amazing because my forensic colleagues, the pathologists, all accepted me. And there was never anybody going, oh, who's the woman in the room? Whereas when I moved out and into the wider environment of forensic and death investigation, there

was always a bit of resistance about who was this young woman coming in, you know, sort of trying to tell us what to do, Because it was different attitudes at that time. And I accepted that. I never took umbrage. I didn't ever think this was against me in particular. I thought, that's just the way life is at the moment. It will change. It took a long time, but it has changed.

Did you feel that resistance from certain members of the police, for example, when you turned up on, you know, at the scene of these awful crimes? Initially, the police were very resistant to someone like me coming in. But it's like everything else, I always think you have to prove yourself anyway. If you walk into a new job, you can't expect everybody to, you know, sort of laud you and think, oh, you must be marvellous. So I've always had that in me that, you know, I'm going to show you that I can do this job and I can do it really well. And so it takes a bit of time. And then before you know it, people just accept you and go, yeah. And what happened in Glasgow is it flipped completely because over a period of time when I started in Glasgow, there was two men and one woman, me.

And then we built up the number of women in the department. And it got to the stage where when one of the men went out to the scene, they would go, are none of the women available today? And it just changed. The whole thing just changed. And people began to realise the worth of us women. Yes, and no small part down to you. Thank you very much for that. I mean, it must have been difficult, though, even though you say you're driven by fairness. When you go into these situations

and someone's lost their life in such an awful way, how did you cope with it? You're driving around, you know, vast swathes of the Republic of Ireland on your own. How did you cope with that? I think you have to be able to cope with it right from the very beginning. It's not something you can get used to. It's not a job that you think, I'll get better through time. It never gets better. I never get a happy phone call,

which is why I've got a phobia of phones. Because every time the phone rings, I know it's bad news for somebody. And so you learn very quickly whether you can deal with it or you can't deal with it. And I've seen many people fall by the wayside who just decide, I couldn't do this every day for the rest of my life. Whereas, I don't know whether I'm made of standard stuff or I'm just, I don't know. But I realised I could cope with it and I could do it and I could do it well. And the people who were struggling, how did you explain to them how you did cope with it? What was the difference between you and them, do you think? Coffee, wine and Coronation Street, I don't know.

Very good. Worked for me. I think everybody has their own coping mechanisms, but it's not something you can teach. And I get a lot, I used to get a lot of students coming in because we're always trying to entice the medical students to think about us as an option. And you could tell within the first day, no, you can't hack it and just go

because you won't be able to cope with this. You won't sleep at night. I sleep at night, fine. I don't have any problems. You need to go and try and find another niche that you'll be comfortable in. There was a case though, that tipped you over, wasn't there? Tell us about that. Yeah. I mean, I've seen some awful sights in my whole time, you know, my 30 odd years of

walking into crime scenes and into mortuaries. And I've never, I've always stuck to what I was there to do, which is to examine the body and determine the cause of death, get that information to the police and get that information to the family, very importantly. It doesn't matter to me who did it, why they did it, nothing to do with me at all. There are other clever people out there who are working on that aspect of the investigation. And on this occasion, I went in and it was a young girl who'd been missing for a couple of days. And her body was found in a derelict house. And I just went in and it was the first time in a long time, I just stood there and looked. Because normally, I'm very busy busting about and telling the guards to do this, get the photographer over here, we're doing this, we're doing that, keeping everybody focused on what we're there to do. And I just stood and I looked and I went, who would do that? And why would they do that?

And that was it. As soon as those words came out my mouth, I thought, that's it, I've had enough. That's the straw that's broken this camel's back. We need to go now because now you're going to get emotionally involved and you can't allow yourself to do that. Why do you think it was that particular case? I don't know. And I think talking to colleagues, there seems to be one case that just gets them. And they're all different. And so it's different things touch different people. And maybe it's because this was a young girl. I just thought, no. This is the Anna Kriegel case, if anyone remembers that.

Yes, Anna Kriegel. And it was just so sad. And that was sad. And then when I found out who the perpetrators were, I just thought, what? I became, you know, the mummy in me went, what is this world coming to? Right. And when people like you start saying things like that, you lost hope. I did for a bit. And that's why I thought, no, I've done my bit I think I need to move away and

let the other people come out behind me step in and take over well you changed the game you brought more women in you've now turned your hand to fiction I was just mentioning your your new fiction your protagonist Dr Terry O'Brien state pathologist who's recently moved to from Glasgow to take up a position in Dublin. Write about what you know. I'm not deaf. Why not? The detail will be superb. How much of yourself is in Terry? I think it's like all authors will say that

there's something of themselves in a lot of their characters. So obviously I'm drawing from my experience. I mean I've got a lot of experience out there. But I think what you do with your characters is you've got a lot of experience out there. But I think what you do with your characters is you make them a version of yourself that maybe your best version or your worst version. And you can have a think about that yourself when you read it. And it gives you a chance to do things and say things that I was never allowed to do.

Wonderful. And I know what you also try to do is get a female, because you advise on TV programmes as well. You've advised on Bad Sisters and Taggart. You try to get a female pathologist onto Taggart. an elderly male with a beard. And I was going, but that's not who I am. I'm small. And as a concession, they would then, they would have a lingering shot of my little Wellingtons that sat at the entrance to the mortuary. And they would go, right, well, that's you, you're in it. And I'd go, well, it's not really quite the same. Go and write my own character. Someone will make a drama about me one day. I'm sure they will.

It's been an absolute delight to meet you. Thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. Dr. Marie Cassidy and her new novel Body of Truth is out now. If you've been affected, of course, by any of the issues Appeal is taking place. Money raised by the appeal will go to people experiencing homelessness as well as supporting frontline workers and funding organisations working to end and prevent homelessness. West Mercia's Women's Aid are just one of the charities to receive donations to assist some of the women escaping domestic abuse. And we will speak to their chief executive, Sue Coleman, to talk about why this funding is important

and the women they support and why more recently they've focused on older women vulnerable to domestic abuse. All to come here on Woman's Hour. Thank you for joining us. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I love you.

I know that. Carolyn is 80, a wealthy widow. Dave is in his 50s, homeless, a former drug addict with a long criminal record. Their love affair causes a huge rift in Carolyn's family. That's our mom. We're not going to let you just do that. I'm Sue Mitchell, and this story unfolded in California on the street where I live. Look what you brought into your house. He's a con artist, mother.

Is Dave a dangerous interloper or the tender carer he claims to be? That's why I'm here. Thank God. Find out in Intrigue, Million Dollar Lover from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. If anything happens to him, I will just die. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.