Woman's Hour - Emily Campbell, Hospital Wards, Introverts & Extroverts

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

All eyes were on Laurel Hubbard at yesterday's women's Olympic weightlifting. That's because she's the first transgender athlete to compete in the Games, but it was Team GB's Emily Campbell who made history. Five years ago, Emily was working with children who had special needs, but now she's the first British woman ever to stand on the Olympic podium for weightlifting, taking home the silver. We talk about women and weightlifting with Sam Prynn from StrongHer Gym.Women trash-talking men and attempts to redress the gender imbalance have gone too far: that's what the journalist James Innes Smith believes. He shares his viewpoint with Fiona Sturges, from the Financial Times and the Guardian, who doesn't agree.Some NHS trusts have issued guidance stating that people should stay on hospital wards based on the gender they identify with and can choose which showers and toilets to use. That's according to today's Daily Telegraph. But many people feel that the privacy from single sex wards is part of their recovery. The merits of mixed versed single sex wards has always been debated and policy has changed as a result. We speak to Sally Sheard, a health policy analyst and historian.Porn made especially for teenagers: what do you think? In a now deleted but much discussed and decried tweet last week the journalist Flora Gill suggested "entry level" porn should be made available to teenagers as an antidote to the hard core material they’re already accessing online. Does she have a point? We talk to journalist and author Eleanor Mills, and Lucy Emmerson from the Sex Education Forum.Introvert or extrovert? Which are you? Are you in a relationship with the opposite, and has lockdown made it tough? We speak to Ali Roff Farrar who's an introvert whose husband is an extrovert, and Sonya Barlow who's an extrovert and is going out with an introvert.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. It is great to be back because I've missed our conversations over the last couple of weeks. But a break is good for the soul, not the waistline. I hope you'll be managing one if you've not already had something or some time to yourself already. Although I recognise holidays are also causing a great deal of stress at the moment as both everyone, including the politicians, grapple with the rules and the insults fly. But speaking of insults and how we talk to and about one another,

today I'm joined by a journalist and author who feels that in the attempt to redress gender imbalance, men are being gradually airbrushed out. He uses research by the BBC, no less, last month about our audiences to bolster his case. More than a quarter of men feel that the BBC no longer reflects them. Something we'll get into, not least because the author in question, James Innes Smith, believes Radio 4 has turned into one long episode of Woman's Hour. His concern is broader than the BBC and is more about how he feels women are regularly writing and talking badly about men, often in sexist terms, terms that wouldn't be acceptable the other way around. A recent example include the comments by some women, although not exclusively so, some men made

these remarks too. After Matt Hancock resigned as health secretary after being pictured kissing an aide, women in writing, some women writing and talking about Mr Hancock being unattractive and punching above his weight. That's just one example. He believes having a pop at men, whether it's about their appearance or apparent ineptitude, is deeply fashionable. And now that women have proved themselves as cruel as men, it's time for a truce. Does he have a point? Are certain women throwing around insults that if tables were turned that will be balked at, that people would be saying it's sexist,

casual misandry, as it can be called, versus casual misogyny? Or is this utter nonsense? Are you thinking, hang on a minute, we've not even got anywhere close to redressing some of the imbalances? Or maybe you're thinking we haven't got close with equality, but the way that we are talking about and to one another leaves something to be desired. 84844 is the number to text. Can't wait to hear what you have to say on this one. And really let us know. Say it how you see it. Say it how you feel. On social media, get in touch with me via at BBC Women's Hour

or you can email me through our website. We'll hear from him shortly. Also on today's programme, we'll be exploring the history of single-sex wards in our hospitals in light of guidance around trans patients and being married to or living with an extrovert when you are an introvert. Did your ears just prick up? Is that you?

Or the other way around, has lockdown tested your relationship? How do you make it work? Let us know. We'll be hearing from someone on the front line with that particular scenario. But first, all the cameras of the world's media might have been focused on Laurel Hubbard at yesterday's women's weightlifting, the first transgender athlete to compete in the Olympics. Because we had a big interview about that and around the evidence around that catch up on BBC Sounds. It was Team GB's Emily Campbell who made history. Let me tell you a bit more about it, because five years ago, Emily was working with children with special needs and learning difficulties when she first picked up a barbell.

Originally, it was to help her improve her strength as a hammer thrower. But five years on, she is the first British woman to stand on the Olympic podium for weightlifting. And what a moment it was. And Emily isn't funded by the national lottery. She's taking home the silver medal. She is Britain's first weightlifter across both genders to win in 37 years. Let's have a listen to what she has to say about double standards in her sport. See, I get a lot of stigma as well. We've been a super heavyweight and stuff and whatever. There's like a double standard when it comes to women and men, you know. Men are all right to be overweight

and stuff. They're amazing athlete or whatever. But as soon as a woman's overweight, she's, you know, she's fat. She's, you know, she's not an athlete. As long as you know you're inspiring the right people and that you're, you know, making, motivating people to do things that are good and to, you know, get them out there and get them into doing whatever they want to do. Like as long as you know that you're motivating somebody to do what they want to do for them and for the best, then I know that I'm doing my job right.

And all the negativity that comes with it. Yeah. it's hard to read it and to see it but you know you know you need to push that away and concentrate on what you're doing that is good. Well Emily was competing in the 87 kilos category yesterday and lifted a staggering 161 kilos yesterday to come second to get that silver medal. Is she right though about how we treat male and female weightlifters differently? And is that the barrier or a barrier to more women entering the sport? Sam Prynne is co-owner of the Strong Her Gym. First of all, Sam, I've got to say, what's your reaction to her win, her second place?

I'm going to put it like that. Epic. Absolutely epic. I'm so happy. It's just absolutely incredible. I'm so proud. What is it that we don't understand if we don't know anything about that world for women competing in it? I mean, a lot of women are just scared. A lot of women are so scared of going into that space. And, you know, I mean, I've been a trainer for seven or eight years and, you know, been in that space. And it was scary for me as well. But, you know, just get in, do it, because it's amazing. Strong Hair Gym, your gym, is around helping women to do this,

to get in, to weight lift? Yeah, 100%. So it's actually our first birthday of our space today. Oh, happy birthday. Thank you very much. We have been running for about four and a half years and exactly that, you know, so many women don't realise the benefits of weight training and are so scared. So that's what we're doing. We're helping women get into it.

And just to confront this straight on, it's not about weight loss, is it? No, not at all. What's it about if it's not about that? Because, of course, a lot of people will associate going to a gym with that. Yeah. I mean, again, you know, weight training does help with weight loss, but it's not our focus. It's always about, you know, achieving things that you didn't think were possible. It then transcends, you know, getting stronger in a gym.

It then transcends into your life. Being able to pick up a weight you didn't think you could pick up then means that, you know, the job that you were too scared to go for, you can kind of do that. And it does, it goes across the board. So when she's talking about a double standard there, tell us what you think do that and it does it goes across the board so when she's talking

about a double standard there tell us what you think of that and how you've seen that yeah i mean again i think it comes down a lot in the media um i see i still think even now if a lot of women are are recognizing the benefits of weight training i think again a lot that's pushed out there you know across media on social media is about you, losing belly fat and all this kind of stuff and diet culture, which is a massive thing. And I think women are scared of, you know, not forgetting about their weight and actually just looking at how much they can pick up, you know I think the other thing with this and certainly reading around what Emily and other women who are in her field have been talking about is you know as a guy it can be accepted that you look a certain way when you're weightlifting and that you're not necessarily svelte that you're you're svelte in the typical sense you're a bigger a bigger contender and there is still stigma about women being bigger. Yeah, 100%. I think, again, like, I think when you sort of, like,

when you get into weight training and then that kind of just, you just forget about it. I remember, like, personally, me back then, it was all about sort of losing body fat and all that kind of stuff and being lean and actually it kind of crossed a line where I was like, you know what? I really don't actually care about my size anymore. You just want to feel good and feel strong. Yeah. main reasons that people when they I mean if you're meeting them

in the first place they will have crossed some barriers to think that this might be for them but what are the main things that you have to get women over to even think that they could do maybe not quite as much as Emily but somewhere in that vicinity it's just fear it comes down to fear um and an intimidation they're the biggest things confidence um i mean obviously our space is a women-only space um i think that as well for women they get scared of of going into an intimidating weights area with you know big guys why why do we need a women-only space to do this in just because I mean I mean there's a it's a it's a different conversation I think that you know unisex gyms I think there's things that need to be fixed in that kind of area in itself but I think as well

like one of the biggest barriers for women entering fitness especially weight training is the intimidate intimidation factor of the weights area um so you know giving you know providing a safe supportive space that is women only, more women feel inclined to enter it. So I'm happy to have a bit of that other conversation that you talk about. What are gyms doing wrong? Because some people will say, I go to the gym, I don't feel intimidated at all as a woman.

Yeah, I mean, I just know that the figure of sexual harassment within gyms, in the unisex gym, is a high number. So, I mean, that's something that needs to be addressed in itself. It's not a case of... So you're not talking specifically about weight, you're talking more generally? Yeah, yeah, more generally. OK, but in the weight area, and again, we should return to that,

and perhaps I'll come back to you for a different conversation on that, because that requires a proper conversation, which you're hinting at. But around weights, do you feel that, on that because that requires a proper conversation which you're which you're hinting at but around weights yeah do you feel that it when you use that word intimidating again it's intimidating to try something new or particularly intimidating around guys doing weights men doing weights uh i mean i think it's both if i'm honest i think again for a woman to do something that they don't they're not they've never done before in an area where you know you're surrounded by men who you know may not be looking at you but women do feel

that that men are just kind of staring at them um i think yeah it's part of that yeah just to try and help me here because we are people may not have seen it we have played a couple of clips how heavy is 161 kilos I mean if you're kind of looking at strength to be able to push your body weight over your head is something but she then kind of took that to another level and was almost double so insane absolutely insane what can you do I mean I've been injured for a while so I, I mean, I could say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Around about 45 kilos. Oh, wow. Okay, no, that's serious. Don't do yourself down.

But 161, just to get your head around that. Yeah, insane. It's extraordinary. And with her story as well, that, yeah, just five years ago, she wasn't doing this. Yeah. How fast you can go. Yeah, I mean, you do, you know, when you're training,

you can gain strength quite quickly. Do you think that Emily, and we'd love to, of course, have her here on Women's Hour. We tried this morning. I think she's a very busy woman right now. We hope to welcome her at some point. But do you think the sight of Emily Campbell will have an impact on other women and girls coming through?

I do think so. Yeah, I do. I think a lot of people have been very inspired by the women in the Olympics so far. So yeah. It's there. It's coming. All right.

Well, we will see. Good luck with your injury and the first birthday of your gym and getting more women to do it. And what a woman to be thinking about this morning. That's why we wanted to start with talking about Emily Campbell. Just talking there to Sam Prynne.

Thank you for your time. Co-owner of the Strong Her Gym. If you're into weights, if you're training, tell us how you got into it. Let us know how you felt, even if you're nothing to do with it. Seeing it just made you feel strong. Well, let's talk about strong women, shall we? Women trash-talking men and attempts to redress the gender imbalance have gone too far. I asked you what you made of this.

This is what the journalist James Innes Smith, the author of The Seven Ages of Man, believes, as well as other things, of course, which I'm sure we'll get onto. You have been getting in touch. Marge in the Midlands says, Oh, for heaven's sake, what a load of rubbish. Please stop pandering to the delicate male egos. It needs to be said again and again to the privileged

that equality feels like oppression. We are nowhere near equal yet. Well, that's very straight talking. Let me bring James into this in a moment. We'll also be joined by Fiona Sturge as an arts writer for the Financial Times and The Guardian. But first, I come to you, James. Good morning. Good morning.

How are you feeling being on Woman's Hour? Very excited. Well, you said the whole of Radio fours turned into one long episode of it slightly tongue-in-cheek perhaps i don't know um well i i this is something i've heard from from a lot of people i mean i i um and of course i'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing i'm saying what i'm what i'm interested in is this idea of diversity and where the boundaries are. If certain sections of the community think that it's gone too far one way, then perhaps we should listen to them and ask why they're feeling like that.

And I think that statistic you quoted earlier about the BBC, 28% of men feeling that it doesn't speak to them. Well, rather than just dismissing that as being, oh, well, that's just fragile, you know, egotistical men feeling, you know, privileged men feeling hard done by, well, why not let's address it and see what the issues are. Well, which is exactly why we've invited you on.

That's why we've invited you on to have this conversation. I'm just reading, I suppose, some of the messages that have come in and they're really interesting, a lot of them. I'll come back to them in a moment. But just from your perspective, what's gone too far? I'm not necessarily saying it's gone too far. What I'm interested in is where are the parameters of equality? The assumption, for instance, that because 51% of the population is female,

then automatically 51% of every career, every job, has to somehow reflect that. I mean, to me that sounds slightly random I mean what about personal choice what about issues of circumstance um we don't necessarily all want the same thing at the same time so it feels it feels rather nebulous to to base something on that okay but just to get it I get I understand it but it doesn't but it doesn't sit very well with me for some reason. Can we talk specifically, and we'll come back to that in just a moment, around culture and what impact perhaps that's having on cultural output. But you also talk about the way that women talk about men and write about men

in ways that would not be acceptable the other way around. I used an example around the issue of the health secretary. You've got other examples. Could you share that or share an example that perhaps had caught your eye and annoyed you? Well, there was a journalist who had a new book out about how she changed her life and her husband. And she's a well-respected journalist.

And she's married to a journalist called David Goodhart. You're talking about Lucy Kelleway. Sorry, did you not know her? Yeah, Lucy Kelleway. And it just felt to me as if it was just something... I use the example of Jeremy Clarkson. Imagine if he'd written a book saying how I changed my underpants, my car and my wife.

You know, it would just seem a little bit kind of fatuous and not very, not very kind. Whereas we kind of have to laugh it off if it's the other way around, because, well, maybe men have had it good for too long and maybe it's a bit of payback time. And what do you take would stop me because I po-faced about it? Well, that seems to me a little bit of double standards. And if we are going to say, well, look, let's all be kind to each other and let's not judge each other on our physical looks or on our sexuality, well, let's do that across the board. Yes, and I suppose, I mean, we have a message here, for instance,

from we have lots of male listeners to Women's Hour, which is still just an hour to clarify. It isn't across the whole of Radio 4. But we did get our increase to the full hour very recently, which I was very happy about. I'm a male teacher in a special needs school full of female support assistants. I'm constantly being talked about my thinning hair, being joked about all my body shape. I can't respond because if I say if I'd said something unprofessional, so I button up. Can you imagine if I said to a female colleague anything about their hair or weight?

That's from Scott, who's listening. And I suppose that speaks to a bit around the issue that you're talking about, casual misandry. Yes, that's quite a good example. And we probably don't even notice that we're doing it because it's such an acceptable thing to do. I get that women often talk about each other's looks. But I think these days it tends to be more about how women dress rather than their physical appearance to do with weight or looks. Seems to me that, you know, that's fine. We can talk about how we redress

and whether we like people's clothes. But when it gets to talking about their physical attributes, then maybe we do need to be a little more thoughtful across the board, men and women, and just, you know, be consistent about what it is that we find acceptable. Yes. I mean, the other thing, though, that you wrote in this particular article, which caught our eye and the spectator was you said some might argue men deserve a taste of their own medicine. But old fashioned male leeriness, although still around, has been considered socially unacceptable for some time now. When did you last hear a builder bellow foie at a passing female pedestrian? Such behaviour simply isn't tolerated.

Indeed, it can now be reported to the police as a hate incident. I can tell you as the host of Woman's Hour that it was probably only maybe an hour ago that a runner will have had that, female runner will have had that experience. If not, as she's listening to this right now, just because you don't hear it and just because it might not be acceptable doesn't mean it's not still happening. I'm not saying that the right response is what you've been discussing. That's where the interesting part lies. But what are women meant to do, in your view, if we've already gone too far with cruel barbs the other way? Well, I think call it out. If a man shouts something sexist or misogynistic or unacceptable, just respond and just tell the man that it's unacceptable. I mean, it's probably quite an intimidating thing to do, but I do think there has been a big sea change with that, which is great. I mean, yes, of course it's still happening. I mean, yes, it's changed, but based on what?

I mean, I've never been so overwhelmed with messages when we did something on running. That's why it's in my mind. And also cycling. Yeah. I mean, what sorts of things are being shouted, though? Is it for your sexy kind of thing or is it you stupid whatever? It's both. It's comments. It's comments about... I suppose the problem with what you're saying here is that if you were saying, listen, and you do say this, let's call a truce, and it was a truce on the other side, as it were, but it's simply not.

Well, then, you know, we need to work harder on both sides. I mean, I think men are paying attention to... You know, it has become socially unacceptable i think to shout at women in the street and i remember that when men did that a lot you know as i say on on scaffolding you were always heard you know whistling and for get your kids off all that stuff um i suppose you're not going to be necessarily the most accurate correspondent on whether it's still happening or not what was my point um but i i take the bigger point that things have become socially unacceptable yeah but that doesn't mean it's gone anywhere at all uh in many ways fiona let me bring you in

at this point because there's a bigger point also about how women are being uh represented but i i think i did i hear you giggle there did i hear a laughter we're not in the studio together so i've got to pick these things up on Zoom. Hello, Fiona. Yes, I was waving frantically at the camera. I mean, I mean, just talking about scaffolders there. It happened last Monday to me. It happens to my daughter, who is 14. understand James is advocating empathy and kindness. And I fully agree with that. And I don't believe in the abuse of men from women on social media or anywhere. But it is a daily occurrence in every woman's life, particularly between certain ages and some of them as young as kind of 11 and 12. So to say. Sorry, you said every woman's life? Sorry? You said every woman's life. I don't know a woman who hasn't been catcalled, who hasn't been intimidated on the street, who hasn't been, who hasn't had some sort of bad

experience with either strangers or men that they know in an abusive manner. If we put that to one side for just a moment, although of course as you're both explaining various aspects of this, Fiona, there is a message here saying, I absolutely agree, we cannot achieve equality by insulting others, whether they be male or female. And another one here saying around feminism shouldn't be used for revenge. It's beneath us. It does nothing to improve some men's poor opinions of women. Working together to make the best use of the strengths is all the way forward. And a lot of messages I have to say about this just being a very privileged position to even be in,

to be having these conversations. But I'm going to have to just part that to one side, even though it's an important contextual element. What do you make of some of the ways that women have been writing and speaking about men? Perhaps we should be the ones doing things differently are the sort of strain of messages coming in from some people here. I do agree that, you know, kindness and

politeness and not being abusive should be the baseline for all of these discussions. I absolutely feel that. And I agree with James. And I don't like to see or hear of men being abused either in the media or on social media. I understand it happens. There is no balance there. It happens much more against women from men, but let's put that aside for a second. I do think we have to dig down a little deeper here, though, and think about the balance of power. So when a woman is being, is making a throwaway remark about a man that isn't cruel, because, you know, cruelty is not good, you have to think about, you know, the difference between, I think, James, you took the example of Matt Hancock, a woman commentator on the sidelines, throwing an offhand remark about a man in power, in government, compared to the more common sort

of scenario with men punching down towards women, you know, men sort of exerting their existing power. So I think that is worth digging into. But, you know, I say that with the feeling that abusiveness is not okay. Now, you mentioned in your article, you did mention Kate Kellaway, and Emma's obviously mentioned that, and also the book I Hate Men by Pauline Hermange, and I, if I pronounced her name correctly there, and I wondered if you'd actually read that, because although the I Hate Men is a very explosive title, the book itself really is looking at whether it's okay to say, she's digging into the discussion about whether after thousands of years of oppression and patriarchy, it's OK for women to say, you know, not to be polite about it, to stop being appeasing, to stop being reasonable all the time.

And whether it's OK to kind of explode every now and then with anger after years of oppression. So Fiona's brought a couple of points there. Let's deal just with that last one, James. That's the context. Men began this situation, if you like, these war of insults and all of this, one way when there was no oppression of men. So the context is quite important.

Do you accept that, James? Yeah, but where are we now? I mean, I'm more interested in where we are now. And I would hope that there's less malign intent from what you might call the patriarchy and that we do respect each other more. I have good faith in people of both sexes. And tit for tat, you know, we suffered for a thousand years. You pay back time. I don't think that helps anybody. I think we've matured as human beings and we should celebrate that and try and work with that.

So, James, I'm a big fan of facts and statistics. And looking into a report from Ofcom, the broadcasting watchdog, the media watchdog, looking at the facts, for instance, in television and radio, which is where you're speaking about the BBC as well, from 2019 to 2020, shows that now, for instance, women make up 47% of employees,

for instance, across broadcasting, which is bang in line with the proportion of women in the working age in the UK. But women remain underrepresented at senior levels. So Fiona's point about power, you cannot ignore the upper hand that the patriarchy, whether you want to call it that or not, James, has handed men and gives men in those situations, whether it's in a working environment or otherwise. That's not to say I'm ignoring what you've just said about tit for tat, but do you understand that there is a major difference in terms of power there still? Well, there's an assumption that it's a malign power that women are being held back from these powerful jobs. Well, maybe that's true, but maybe there are other factors as well to do with circumstance and choice.

I mean, I could quote for you 85% of people working in publishing, 85% of the class of 2021, which is the sort of up and coming people within publishing, 85% of women of the 45 star rising stars, only seven are men. And this is featured on the cover of the bookseller who, who do go on a lot about inequality and pay gaps and all that. And here we are on the cover of bookseller,

45 up-and-coming publishing people within the whole of publishing and seven are men. Within editing, it's even less. It's two versus 15. So where do we go with that? Do we say that men are being held back from those jobs? Should women step aside and allow more men into those roles? So you're concerned about the gender imbalance coming through the ranks in books and now across in terms of publishing.

Are you concerned about that in terms of the jobs or are you concerned about that in terms of cultural output? Because to put your own argument back to you you you said perhaps that's all that people wanted to do that's what they wanted to do and that's where they are well perhaps i mean that's that's that's an interesting point i mean it's very interesting i've noticed in the past 20 years since being in publishing that um when i go into my publishing hashet that it's it's everyone is of a very similar age. There's a lot of ageism, I think, actually, in publishing, but also it tends to be a very certain type of middle-class,

white, university-educated, 32-year-old women, right from editing through to publicity, across the board. Now, you could say, well, there's nothing wrong with that. And I'm not necessarily saying there is, but it's an interesting demographic shift that's worth exploring. And if we're saying, well, you know, in the BBC, the high paid jobs are still dominated by men. Well, then you can say, well, in publishing, it's dominated by women.

So where, what's actually going on? I suppose when you talk about choice, though, you know, what do you mean by that? Because there'll be lots of things that are hidden within that, which, you know, you talk about choice. Is it a choice to perhaps not have that James was mentioning and to extrapolate from that, is the idea that the content that we're getting is more female focused at the moment, that men are being potentially, whether it's in books or on air, being out, airbrushed, excuse me, out. What do you make of that as a critic? I think there are definitely more, there is more female content and there are more female stories being told. And I mean, I know I'm going to say this, but I think that's wonderful because we've, you know, we've exhausted the male stories.

I mean, we haven't. I'm being facetious there, but it's still a novelty. And so what I think James might be feeling, I might be wrong, James, is that you're looking across the culture, you're looking across publishing, and I agree, I've seen myself publishing, you know, that just sort of mid-level employees are weighted towards women. I'd like to know who's at the top, that's what I'm more interested in. But in terms of the stories are being told, the books that are coming up, the TV dramas that we see, we are hearing more women's stories. And for you, and for men, that's, that's quite new. I mean, you're not used to us. I think it's your eyes just aren't used to us. And I feel like sometimes, yes, that pendulum may swing, because there'll be a huge commissioning

drive across the arts, where we're looking at people of colour who've been you know marginalised forever we're looking at stories of of of the lgbtq community we're looking at the stories of marginalised groups and so to the sort of casual observer it may well look like there are loads of these stories so what's happened to all the all the male stories but i promise you if you look at the tv schedules across the streaming networks across the bbc you will see there are plenty not there are endless male stories still being told it's just that a lot of the exciting content at the moment is coming from women and people of color and that's the stuff that sort of rides us to the top in the media. And that's what gives the people the impression perhaps that... Can I respond to that?

Very briefly, if you can, because I've got a lot of messages to come to here. Go on. Interestingly, I agree with that. But a lot of those stories tend to be about... I think the reason men are feeling left out is because the stories that are being written by a lot of the women writers tend to be about the issues of women's issues.

Have you been able to talk about them before? Well, I think you could argue this, but some of the male stories that we've had in the past, they aren't necessarily about men. They're universal stories that we can all relate to if you start writing specifically about the female um women's actual experiences then you are talking to at least half the population i mean men may be interested in it but it's you're not really talking to them and then you said why do we have to sorry but why do why do women have to talk no sorry why does drama generally have to talk specifically to you? Why aren't you interested in women's stories?

I mean, it would suggest that you're sitting there going, well, this doesn't apply to me because this is about, you know, I don't know, the mayor of Easttown. This is about a woman sort of dealing with middle age and, you know. I tell you what, though, I'm going to set you two up on a date. You're going to go out for coffee and you're going i i tell you what though i'm going to set you two up on a date you're going to go out for coffee and you're going to have to come back and we'll have to talk some more because i'm going to have to go on to other things now i'm very sad to say in some ways but in other ways

you've sparked a huge conversation james in a smith thank you very much fiona sturges thank you to you i have to say james you're getting a lot of support when it comes to trying to you know even out the insults but you're not so much support in terms of people not wanting either side to be insulting, but not a lot of support when it comes to the idea of people being shouted sexual abuse on the streets, dying down. In fact, we've got so many messages about that. And also a programme which I would like to catch up on, I listened to a Radio 4 programme yesterday on research that both men and women perceive women to talk more than men. Even when airtime is 50-50 perception is women are talking more. So that is not a perception of fairness, really.

And there's some concerns that perhaps you need to address that as an issue. Maybe you'll come back to that. But thank you so much. And I'll come back to the many messages in just a moment. But I did promise that we were going to get to this story because some NHS trusts have issued guidance stating that people should be admitted to wards based on the gender they identify with and can choose which shower and lavatory facilities to use. This is according to a report on the front page of The Telegraph this morning. Devon and Oxford and Nottinghamshire hospitals have issued more details saying that a risk assessment could be carried out on male-born

sex offenders, but it shouldn't prevent admission in all cases. Many people feel that the privacy that single-sex wards offer plays a key part in their recovery. The merits of mixed versus single-sex wards have been debated throughout the history of the NHS and policy has changed as a result. But to help us understand the history of single-sex wards in our hospitals and the new guidance around trans patients,

we have Sally Sheard on the line, a health policy analyst and historian. Sally, good morning. Good morning. Single sex wards are currently the norm in most or many settings, I should say. Has it always been this way? No, it hasn't. If you go back to the foundation of the NHS in 1948 we had single-sex wards they were very strictly policed

and that continued through to the 1970s 1980s you only have to think of that brilliant carry-on film um carry-on doctor with Barbara Windsor running between the wards carrying messages um from the female to the male ward uh it wasn't until the 1960s when we had a whole episode of building new, designing new hospitals, they decided that for efficiency reasons, it would actually be really good to have smaller bays rather than the long nightingale wards and to have mixed bays within the wards.

So you'd have a small group of women and then in the next bay you'd have a small group of men. And when they did a study in the 1970s, most people were really happy with this. They felt that it gave them sufficient privacy, sufficient dignity. It was only quite recently that we'd had privacy curtains introduced in hospitals. They came in the 1960s. So it's something that we've changed our views on several times. That's fascinating. Well, that's fascinating to know.

You know, that's why we wanted to talk to you this morning, because of the changing views here. And where have we come out of and why, do you think? Well, in the 1990s, there was a number of different studies were done and they decided that it was actually in the interest of the patient to put them in a space that best enabled their recovery. So we moved then back to having single sex spaces wherever possible. Of course, that isn't always feasible. Sometimes you have to for example in intensive care units it's clinically effective to put people in a mixed space and we would accept that but now sorry just sorry carry on i was going to say and then in i think the biggest change came

in in 2005 when the department of Health committed to eliminating mixed sex hospital accommodation. And they did agree then that it was a threat to patients' dignity if you had mixed space ward. They did. Sorry, your line was just slightly going out there. So I was just making sure we could we could still hear you. So eliminating of mixed sex wards from 2005 and and in terms of the patients and what we know the most recent insight that you could give us around that what do they want what do we want I think what patients want most importantly is to feel safe and to feel well looked after by experts in the most appropriate setting their particular needs. And of course, in terms of what's now going on around the issue to

do with trans, how do you think learning the lessons of what's gone by and what people have been worried about in the past, how do you think this is going to work? Well, I've only just picked up on this story in the last couple of hours after I was invited onto the show. So I've been doing a lot of speed reading and I went to the usual sites. And there's very polarised views on this, as you would expect. I think it's probably something that is being perhaps taken out of context. When you look at modern hospitals, the move is to have single rooms for treatment wherever possible. The new hospital that's just about to open in Liverpool, every patient will have their own room with en suite facilities. So perhaps it won't be necessarily in the new hospitals,

any of those issues. It's interesting to hear, though, that the decision was made, if you like, top down rather than patient up in the end around what would ensure dignity. Are there certain settings where you always think that there should be single gender wards as opposed to separate rooms? For instance, I don't know, you always think of the birthing suite, but maybe there are others. Certainly from when I had my two babies, I'd have been very unhappy if I'd been taken back from the delivery room and put on a mixed sex ward. I think there absolutely are environments in which you would wish to be

in a gender segregated environment. And so learning from history, it's interesting that we've changed our minds on this. Do you see it ever going back to fully mixed again? Or do you think we're in this and then the guidance will be updated as we go? I don't think there's any sense that it would be appropriate to go back to fully mixed.

But then we've got a very different hospital regime anyway. Most people go into hospital, they're only in hospital now for maybe one or two nights. And that's changed, of course, as well. It's changed incredibly. Again, a story we will return to, but we thought very useful and interesting as it has been to hear some of the history around how this has changed. Sally Sheard, health policy analyst and historian,

thank you. NHS England told us hospitals must safeguard the safety, privacy and dignity of all patients, including following the legal requirements established by Parliament. Now, if I said to you this, porn made specially for teenagers, what's your immediate thought? In a now deleted but much discussed and by some decried tweets last week, the journalist Flora Gill suggested entry level porn should be made available to teenagers and as an antidote to the hardcore material they're already accessing online. She argued that this could be seen as an entry level of content where everyone asks for consent and, quote, no one gets choked. Her wording, as she put it, was abysmal. But does she have a point?

I'm now joined by the journalist and author Eleanor Mills and Lucy Emerson, chief executive of the Sex Education Forum. Eleanor, I'll come to you first. Any sympathy here with what Flora Gill was trying to talk about? Well, I did actually have some sympathy for Flora um I I should put on the record here that I know Flora I was her father AA girls uh editor at the Sunday Times and I also know her mother so I've known Flora for a long time but not just because um I had a kind of personal connection I was sympathetic because I've been writing about and speaking to teenagers about the effect of um a smorgasbord of porn being available within a couple of clicks of a mouse for the last over a decade. I wrote some of the first articles in

the Sunday Times magazine about it. And what is clear is the effect that all of this content is having on what teenagers think sex is, what is normal for them. I'm in the process of researching a book for Hour and Press about this, building on the work that I've done for the last decade. And when you speak to teenagers, which I do a lot, it's really shocking. So I had a group of 17-year-old girls and I said to them, how many of you have been choked or throttled? And bear in mind, I'm 50. I haven't led a prudish life, and no one's ever tried to choke or throttle me.

And every single girl said that they get choked and throttled when boys try to kiss them at a party. They call it linking. It's what we used to call snogging. They say it's as normal for someone to choke or throttle you as it is for them to put their hand on their bum or to kind of you know try and touch their breasts and all of them report that if they've kind of they've been kissing or getting off with a boy at a party they will their back will be lacerated with um scratches and bruises and cuts, which will have broken the skin because the boys have learned about sex from porn

and they think that that kind of level of brutality and violence is what sex is. It's what their expectations have been set. But your sympathy with what Flora had to say specifically, I mean, and that is something what you've just said to take in. You know, if people haven't heard that before, I understand why you've shared that story.

It's astonishing, an astonishing new reality. And thank you for sharing that. But what are you saying? Because education, we'll come to Lucy in just a moment, is slowly updating. But how could that work? How could that work that you made some kind of porn that was appropriate for teens? No, I said very clearly in the article that I wrote in the telegraph last week about this that i didn't think that we should be showing um teens kind of softcore porn i don't agree with that at all but what i do think is that

we need a new narrative around sex for teenagers which gives them an alternative point of view to what they are now thinking sex is so you're looking at a generation of boys who start looking at very hardcore material from kind of 9 10 11 and I think it's very important here to differentiate between soft core kind of you know playboy snogging a bit of breast and what these boys are actually looking at when they go online and if I go I've been into classrooms where you can ask kids we ask kids to kind of write down an alphabetical list of the things that they know about pornography and it's it's really shocking what even really you know young 10 11 year olds will know about sexual terms because of the porn that they've looked at and if you talk to teenage girls

even at kind of 11 12 13 the the kind of the conversation in the playground what the boys are looking at the way that they talk about women the way that they see them as a kind of series of orifices to be pounded rather than as real people is really shocking and so what I agree with is what Flora Gill said is that we need a new narrative around sex which gives teens a different idea or a more sense that sex is a loving connection something that you do with someone not something which is done to you not to you really crucial so a new narrative Lucy where should it come from well young people have said for so long that they want good quality relationships

and sex education and they want that from reliable adults so that's school and that's parents and those are the two that they prioritize and we haven't yet met that need come to school we've talked about schools if i'm honest at length here ad nauseum really on women's hour around you know the updated guidance it's's coming. And I know that you're still probably trying to work with as many teachers as possible. And COVID's added lots of complications to see if they can be confident actually to do this, because it's really tricky on top of their day jobs to traverse what's a very difficult landscape. But are parents pulling their weight, Lucy? Not really. And I think sometimes parents are not aware of how much their health is needed here

how um open to those conversations children and young people are um and sometimes it's that awkwardness for parents because they probably didn't get great sex education themselves and they find it quite difficult to talk about this range of quite intimate things um but if you look at the gap between what young people want from their parents and what they're getting, it's enormous. And it's actually greater with dads than moms. And as a consequence, boys are missing out more in those conversations. And yet, you know, the message from young people

is we want conversations, discussion with trusted adults in our lives about relationships and sex, and we're not getting them yet. So until we've addressed that, sex, and we're not getting them yet. So until we've addressed that, you know, we're kind of missing a really important vacuum. Do you, it's interesting you're saying, so more mums, more women are taking it on than the dads, than the men. And are they taking it on with boys equally as they are with girls?

A little bit more with daughters and sons so if you look at that particular kind of gender imbalance which the research evidence is showing us i think it's just another signal that dads you're needed we want to hear from you you need support perhaps um in that particular bit of parenting we didn't get great sex education when we were when we were children so we've got to break that cycle really and it needs to start younger not the teenagers you know it's going to start with them what age toddlers it's a lifelong process of talking openly to our children about their bodies about their rights the boundaries privacy okay um it's it's not about waiting for a big talk later on so sorry so so you mean not

not obviously we're talking about porn here what what age are you talking that you you talk about porn would you say from well you wouldn't be talking about pornography um until sort of secondary phase really but children do get hold of mobile phones and the internet much younger. So you're preparing them with some of the related issues about online safety, recognising gender and power and things to do with consent in everyday situations. That actually prepares the ground for them when they're getting into their teenage years to have several relevant conversations that they can then be more critical, have wider vocabulary, better kind of scope, communication skills, empathy, listening. So, yeah, we're not talking about bringing up pornography so young.

It's about having those building blocks in place, the confidence and not waiting and waiting, thinking, well, it's not going to happen to my child, and then it's too late, and you wish you'd started earlier it's being proactive is there are there resources on your website the sex education forum for parents as well as teachers so sex education forum is a group of partner organizations within our partnership there are some um that look quite specifically at parent support parents do come and have a look you are educators as well as teachers it's about a. So do come and have a look and we'll help you if you're looking for more information. We'll direct from the Women's Hour website. Lucy Emerson, thank you for that. Eleanor Mills, brief final word from you. Parents not pulling their weight.

Mum's doing a bit more, but mum's doing it with daughters. Yeah, I think that that has to change. I mean, the reason I was wanted to come on and speak about this this morning is that I think that as a generation, we are letting down our teenagers and our young people if we don't speak to them about what loving, connected, warm sexual relationships look like. And I think it's a tragedy that a whole generation of children... All really awkward ones, you know, all really difficult things. Yeah all really awkward ones you know all really

difficult things that's the other problem with porn you never show the difficult conversations or the fact that it goes a bit wrong or you feel a bit awkward so all these children are being sold a dream they're big they think that having sex learning about i mean i think learning about sex from porn is like learning to drive from watching the fast and the furious and they've got no context for the fact that this is not what it's like and then of course they get very confused and it's awful for young boys too who are also expected to be kind of hung like stallions and kind of paddle all night all those kind of things and it's unrealistic for both sexes but I think that parents must talk to

their children just when I talk to these teenagers and I say it's really not a normal thing to be throttled and choked when someone kisses you but that actually is empowering to them a lot of them have said to me I didn't even realize that wasn't normal until you said it to us so I think that we as adults need to be setting the sexual norms for our teens and our children and I totally agree with Lucy that we need to start young we need to start saying nobody should ever do anything to you which hurts or which you feel uncomfortable with you have a right to say no so it's also saying to the girls just because the boys have seen this horrid stuff and expect it doesn't mean to say that you have to go along with it and as adults

we need to empower our children to have those conversations and to and to do kind of what's right and to give them a different model of what sexuality and loving sexual relationships can be like. And I'm not saying that you can't be raunchy and have fun and it can't be kind of, you know, it can't be kind of vigorous. But I think that this misogyny, this this absolute wave of violence, women being kind of whipped, bitten, scratched, having their heads flushed down, loose, pounded. That's not what sex is like for grown women. We wouldn't like it if it was. And our children, teens, shouldn't think that it is. I've got two teenage daughters.

That's why I feel really passionate about this. Which we can hear. Eleanor, we're going to have to leave it there. I'm sorry to say, but Eleanor Mills, thank you very much for your insights there, journalist and author. Sue, just very briefly to make sure I've included you in this, you've taken the time and the trouble to email. My daughter found this whole area very difficult and had few venues to discuss this space with adults where young people can be really honest are few and far between. Issues around safeguarding

and confidentiality often work against these spaces. There you go. Pull your weight if you find yourself in this situation. Don't shy away from it. We're talking of shying away. Introvert or extrovert? If you're an introvert and you're married to an extrovert, can you make it work? Lockdown has added unique pressures. Someone who should know, journalist and author of The Wealthiness Project

and self-confessed introvert Ali Roth-Farrar, whose partner, the EastEnders actor James Farrar, is anything but an introvert. And Sonia Barlow, presenter on the BBC Asian Network, comes at this from the other point of view. Sonia, I'll come to you in just a moment. But Ali, good morning. Good morning. How do you make this work? If you don't want to go out and he loves going out. well James my husband and I have been together for 15 years now so we've had a bit of time to work it out um and and I would say the first few years were a bit tricky um I think for both of us as well even knowing you know knowing ourselves and knowing whether we were introverts or extroverts so it took a bit of time um and I do remember in the

early years kind of thinking you know he would he was saying let's go out go out again or I put something else in the diary and we'd have this shared diary and these things would just keep popping in and I'd think oh my god um and and that was tricky for me and I I realized I had to articulate how I was feeling and what I needed um in our relationship that I loved to go out with him um and spend time with our friends and and be outside socializing but that after that I needed a bit of downtime to recharge my batteries and then I could go again um you know and I think at the beginning that was a slightly difficult conversation to have because I didn't want to make him feel like I didn't want to go out with him or that I didn't have fun with him

um but luckily James is very um intelligent and emotionally intelligent so um we kind of spoke about how I was introverted and he was more extroverted and what that was like for both of us and what we both needed. I was going to say has he he found lockdown difficult? Extroverts of, I may know one myself, found it quite tough not having busy social calendars. I think so, definitely. I mean, I think I found it a lot easier. I was kind of really relieved, actually, that we didn't have things in the diary. But I noticed that James would definitely kind of, he'd spent, he put a lot more priority on making sure he went out for a run rather than worked out in the garden, for example, and really made the most of that one daily outing that he was allowed. And little things like, you know, the NHS clap on the Thursday evening. I think that meant a lot to him because it gave us a chance to talk to our neighbours from across the road and he would stay out there longer and check to them and stuff. Make a night of it.

Yeah, make a real night of it. Him on the step. Sonia, you're the opposite in your relationship. Is that right? Good morning. Good morning. Absolutely. So I would call myself an extrovert. And I'm sure if you know me, you would call me an extrovert too. And how does that manifest?

Because you're with an introvert. Absolutely. And I think, you know, these are just labels, but really personality styles are different so we moved in together this time last summer and so spent pretty much you know the second and third lockdown together and I think it was just a balancing act I like to go out I fidget a lot I'm quite restless so for me it was you know if I couldn't go outside it was how many people can I talk to in a day how many zoom meetings meetings can I jump on? How many community members can I have a discussion with?

Because I run like-minded females, social enterprise and community. Whereas for him, it was more of, well, OK, I don't need to talk to people if I don't necessarily have a need to. Or he's quite comfortable staying at home. It can lead to real problems, though, Sonia, can't it? Not that I'm trying to in any way say that the relationship is not going to be OK. But for some people, it's really hard to have a partner that they can't take to a party necessarily or they go alone to things. Absolutely. And I think for me, especially now I'm in the media and the spotlight and, you know, hosting the Everyday Hustle and the BBC Asia Network is about setting boundaries and rules. So a great example being I don't post my partner online.

You know, he doesn't consent to being on social media. He doesn't like that life. But if I was to say here's a work event or an event that I need you to come to, he would definitely come, but definitely kind of keep his own boundaries out of respect. Whereas for myself, I'm more of a, or let's talk to everyone and talk to everything and, you know, say hi to everyone as we go down the road type of person, especially. It's funny, but when you go to supermarkets, I like to have a conversation because that's kind of the closest normality that you've had in quite a while. And so to answer your question, you know, it's really about setting boundaries, compromising where possible, and also knowing how to communicate to the other person so if I'm suggesting we do something I come

with more of a plan um and kind of say look we've been in for like let's say five days the sixth day let's go out let's do something and it's going to be here and this is what we're going to do so that he's a bit more comfortable because I also think it is about you know balancing in a relationship and and and kind of this whole introvert extrovert um labels and personality styles I think normally people imagine that you're you're already setting yourself not up for success but I think you can really complement each other's um work ethics and and kind of just the way that you live in your own household you know contrary to our conversation earlier about people not being polite in some circumstances about men and certainly women, this has been incredibly polite. I feel like if I took you both out or one stayed in with me and one went out with me for a drink, we might get even more about the compromises that you both had to come to. for your insights on being introverted and extroverted. And coming back to that discussion around how men and women talk about

and to each other, Jo in Bolton says, the irony is that the concept of a programme called Woman's Hour in itself is so 1950s. Well, actually, we're 75 years old. So please change it to Person's Hour. Cheers, Jo in Bolton. Thanks for that, Jo. We'll see you tomorrow at 10.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Pandora Sykes. And just before you go, I wanted to tell you about a new podcast, Pieces of Britney. My attempt to piece together the life of Britney Spears and the forces that have forged it. A huge fan. Yeah, absolutely. A fan of not just the performer, but the person. I think that a lot of people were rooting for Britney to fail, and there's this sort of assumption of, you know, this is what you wanted, this is what you're going to get. In this eight-part series for BBC Radio 4,

I've spoken to cultural thinkers, lawyers, psychologists and key players in the entertainment industry to get their perspective on Britney's remarkable story and enduring legacy. I used her as an example of somebody who really got what was required to do that kind of work. We're also using drama to help us look behind the headlines and the conflicting accounts to imagine the woman underneath. Join me for Pieces of Britney. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.